Legion of 3 Worlds #4 *SPOILERS

[Karl O'Neill]

awesome


http://www.geoffjohns.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/kidflashxs.tiff

[AdamYJ]

Bart actually looks like he's having fun. Haven't seen that in a while.

[Samy]

And Jenni's so excited to see Bart she doesn't even notice she's running through Prime.

That's gotta be a hit to Prime's ego. She didn't even notice him. :D :D :D

[OzBat!]

Now THAT is excellent!

In fact, the only way it could be better, is if they put him in the right costume... that attitude had pure Impulse written all over it!

[Dial W for What the...?]

:confused: Yeah that does look good. Maybe we'll get to see it by Labor Day and Maybe if we keep our fingers crossed we'll get the final issue by Christmas.

[Karl O'Neill]

hold out for groundhog day!!!!!!!

[MutoMikey]

I'm holding out for it being on my 21st birthday. With the final issue coming out by the time I have a child.

[Karl O'Neill]

More preview

http://www.geoffjohns.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/legion4.jpg

[KYLeo71]

I'm suddenly feeling all tingly and giddy. I swear to god, at least once a week I feel like I'm 12 years old again.

[Karl O'Neill]

Anyone else notice that one of the green lantern rings is different shape?

[IvCNuB4]

Actually 3 of them are different. That's because he's been collecting the rings of the deceased GLs for the last 1000 years ....

[Drcharles]

I read the first issue, but Ive more or less forgotten what its about now, so Im going to wait untill all 5 issues are out untill I read it, with this issue Im a bit closer............:smile:

[Samuraixsithlord]

I get a feeling that Ion is going to die after killing Prime thus fulfilling the prophacy.

[Karl O'Neill]

I get a feeling that Ion is going to die after killing Prime thus fulfilling the prophacy.

Don't you dare say that!

[Slyfer]

Well by all accounts the Green Lanterns all died out accroding to all future records and references.

[Samuraixsithlord]

Don't you dare say that!

you don't want Prime to die or Ion? I actually don't want either to go. but we still got Ion in the 21st century and Prime could always come back to life

[Karl O'Neill]

love both characters.!!!:biggrin:

[IvCNuB4]

Surprise ! This comes out today !

[Joker2503]

Anyone else notice that one of the green lantern rings is different shape?

One looks like Alan Scott's ring, one looks like Kyle's ring.

[Will44]

I am very excited. This series is great, and I hope it continues to do justice to all 3 versions of the Legion.

[Karl O'Neill]

Lemme get this straight.

Prime's future self is the Time trapper. that would mean prime turns out to be an intelligent , smart cunning, less whiny villain!

[Scott Taylor]

Just looking forward to another issue full of Perez art to gawk at.

[bfrank]

Lemme get this straight.

Prime's future self is the Time trapper. that would mean prime turns out to be an intelligent , smart cunning, less whiny villain!

You might want to fix yours.......


[spoil] [/ spoil] (no space) as opposed to

[IvCNuB4]

Anyone catch that panel where Element Lad is able to turn the ground into a Green K that affects Prime ? Only Kryptonite from the same universe can hurt a Kryptonian, right ? So maybe this is Johns' subtle hint that Waid's Legion is from Earth-Prime's future ? That would explain why, to that Legion, 21st century superheroes were comic book characters ....

[Sean Walsh]

Well worth the wait.

And while I did enjoy the leadup to ____'s return, I kinda loved the fact that Johns threw a couple hurdles in there to get you riled up ("Oh dude he's back, it's totally time for--"), then lose hope ("Oh, they all got knocked out. And now they don't know which crystal tlo press. Good gr--"), then get riled up again ("Wait a minute, they have hope! OMFG it's--"). :biggrin:

[DeadXMan]

About F'ing time is all I got to say about a character's return.:biggrin:

[bfrank]

Anyone catch that panel where Element Lad is able to turn the ground into a Green K that affects Prime ? Only Kryptonite from the same universe can hurt a Kryptonian, right ? So maybe this is Johns' subtle hint that Waid's Legion is from Earth-Prime's future ? That would explain why, to that Legion, 21st century superheroes were comic book characters ....
yep, I thought that was the final clue....

[davros42]

Anyone catch that panel where Element Lad is able to turn the ground into a Green K that affects Prime ? Only Kryptonite from the same universe can hurt a Kryptonian, right ? So maybe this is Johns' subtle hint that Waid's Legion is from Earth-Prime's future ? That would explain why, to that Legion, 21st century superheroes were comic book characters ....

Yeah, people had been guessing that the Threeboot was Earth-Prime's Legion (or at least whichever of the 52 is Earth-Prime's equivalent) for a while now.

Looks like they were right.

[Ghost Shark]

Re: The Return


YAY!

[Karl O'Neill]

All and one seem to be elated that connor is back.

[Kelson]

I thought this issue was more story-focused than the last few. The return was welcome, but the unmasking was annoying.

Full review here (http://speedforce.org/2009/04/review-l3w4/) (some spoilers).

[Karl O'Neill]

This unmasking.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u108/Mewzard/TimeTrapper.jpg

[Mainline]

What's up with the Kryptonite working?

[Ghost Shark]

I thought this issue was more story-focused than the last few. The return was welcome, but the unmasking was annoying.

Full review here (http://speedforce.org/2009/04/review-l3w4/) (some spoilers).

I agree with you on the unmasking. I greatly dislike that the entire Five Years Later run has been ignored, but can look past it if Johns givess us a decent Legion out of all this.

As for your question: (unless he’s the Kryptonian Nightwing, or has his ID been revealed?)

Yes, it has been revealed as

Chris Kent, aka Lor Zod, son of General Zod and Ursa. Apparently artificial aging is as rampant in the DCU as swine flu is in ours.

[_OM_]

I greatly dislike that the entire Five Years Later run has been ignored

...I"m rejoicing in it! All that remains is for "Threeboot" to be wiped clean from Legion history, and the team returned to the Levitz era glory once again with a big NO REBOOTS ALLOWED! sign placed on the entrance to the Legion HQ!

[Karl O'Neill]

What's up with the Kryptonite working?

maybe they are from the earth prime like prime which their K can hurt prime?

[Kevinroc]

maybe they are from the earth prime like prime which their K can hurt prime?

I thought it was blatantly obvious that Geoff was going to reveal that the post-IC Legion was from Earth-Prime in the last issue when Brainaic 5 said they were from an Earth that was important to the battle. The kryptonite hurting Prime pretty much sealed the deal.

[KiFF86]

Wait..........Connor is back? OMFG I am so excited I have tomorrow off.

[Retro315]

Yeah, people had been guessing that the Threeboot was Earth-Prime's Legion (or at least whichever of the 52 is Earth-Prime's equivalent) for a while now.

Looks like they were right.

And people say Johns doesn't write crafty ...

I think taking something kind of obvious like the Earth-Prime connection, and actually having it be that instead of some cockamamie twist or misdirection ... that's crafty.

[jv2k]

Man this story really left me itching for more. I can't say I've eagerly awaited a comic to come out as much as I do issue 5 in ages.

[CMBMOOL]

Wow Johns undid his first biggest Infinite Crisis death, but it's a question why both characters are not back in the present and if Robin and Wonder Girl knows of the truth since Bart's back In Flash's Rebirth.

[OrpheusTelos]

Wow Johns undid his first biggest Infinite Crisis death, but it's a question why both characters are not back in the present and if Robin and Wonder Girl knows of the truth since Bart's back In Flash's Rebirth.

My guess is Connor was kept out of that scene purposely to keep the surprise. It was pretty much a given at the start of Lo3W that Bart was going to be revived. When and where Connor's return was going to be was harder to figure out.

[Slyfer]

*Permission to turn on CAPS LOCK

ehem


MARVEL PAY ATTENTION


THAT WAS HANDS DOWN THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE I WAS OVERLY EXCITED ABOUT A COMIC TILL I WAS RAVING FRANTICALLY AT MY OFFICE, THE REVEALS WERE JUST AWESOME

*turns off Caps Lock

That was awesome NUFF SAID! ( I had to :-) )

[drinkblatzbeer]

didn't think i would really care after this ridiculous wait...but...action action action...loved it...

[KYLeo71]

Damn it! I won't get this in the mail until next week! I'm gnashing teeth, wringing hands, and biting fingernails in anticipation.

[Dragonfly Jones]

Anyone else notice that one of the green lantern rings is different shape?

All of the rings aren't the same shape. Most are the GL insignia enclosed in a circle though. The next most common is probably the GL insignia with no circle and the band directly connected to the insignia.

[Slaughter]

Anyone else thought about the implication of the old Prime?

He lives in the end of time. Imagine someone who saw the universe deteriorating for years BEYOND our measure to grasp!

That's seriously disturbing.

[TCJohnson]

So at this point the only character that is going to ever stay dead is Ted Kord.

[Captain Jim]

No offense to anyone, but I hope this leads the way to a return to the original line-up of Johns' Teen Titans. That book has sucked so bad since these two characters left.

[Buried Alien]

So at this point the only character that is going to ever stay dead is Ted Kord.

That's not such a bad thing, really. I'm into these funny books to read about characters, not to fetishize their fictitious deaths. A dead character is just one less character to read about, which is a net loss the way I see it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Thok]

So at this point the only character that is going to ever stay dead is Ted Kord.

Except, of course, that a bunch of people will argue that Ted's already been brought back to life, depending on how you interpret the end of Booster Gold 1000000 (and Katz has said that was meant to be Ted.) Replace Ted Kord with Maxwell Lord and you might be closer to the truth.

[Kevinroc]

No offense to anyone, but I hope this leads the way to a return to the original line-up of Johns' Teen Titans. That book has sucked so bad since these two characters left.

Yes, it has. I wonder if Geoff is going to return to the Teen Titans. He left the title because Bart and Kon were no longer usable. Since he has brought them both back and he will soon only have 2 (or 3, depending on if he stays on Flash after Rebirth). That would leave room for a 4th title (the other titles being Green Lantern and Adventure Comics and possibly Flash).

[hushy1979]

If only this was the main event of 2008... I'm sorry I love DC and everything, but I just couldn't stand the mess that Final Crisis was. Not that I have anything against the whole storyline but I just found it unfortunate they had to hype it in such an unrealistic manner that FC was gonna help newbies get into the DC universe proper. Like.. WTF??

Now this! George Perez is GOD. Geoff Johns is GOD. I remember reading IC #6 and feeling the tension and sadness towards the end... for this issue, when I saw who was resurrected... I was once again overwhelmed. I didn't know I cared for the character so much until I was going WOW in the cab!

[JamesJesse]

I hope Connor and Bart make it back to the Teen Titans. (And Tim Drake becomes Robin again after whatever is happening over at Battle for the Cowl)

If that happens, I will be back on Titans! Which I dropped after those two bit it (I gave it a chance, and I loved Red Devil and Beetle on the line up but something was just missing without those guys.)

[Avalon®]

Wasn't Time Trapper revealed to be a future version of Cosmic Boy in Zero Hour? Does that still stand or did that change via a Legion reboot or Superboy Prime punching the walls of reality?

[Sean Walsh]

No offense to anyone, but I hope this leads the way to a return to the original line-up of Johns' Teen Titans. That book has sucked so bad since these two characters left.

I'd certainly like to think Kid Flash, at least, will be back with the Titans - they did go through all this effort to de-age him again, so his youth is clearly a factor in what they plan for him in the future.

Connor, though, is probably gonna be part of ADVENTURE COMICS (that Origins & Omens story in #0 did basically lay the groundwork for his eventual involvement in the stories there).

[ShaggyB]

So at this point the only character that is going to ever stay dead is Ted Kord.

Bruce's parents seem pretty dead.........

[ShaggyB]

Wasn't Time Trapper revealed to be a future version of Cosmic Boy in Zero Hour? Does that still stand or did that change via a Legion reboot or Superboy Prime punching the walls of reality?

id have to go back and look but im betting doesnt stand now.....

[Will44]

In Zero Hour the Time Trapper was revealed to be Cosmic Boy.

But then Zero Hour reset the DCU a little, and we were shown in one of the last panels a Time Trapper with long hair. It was presumed that by recreating the big bang, a new person was Time Trapper. Theories at the time were that it was a woman because of the long hair, and probably Saturn Girl.

I like this better. This issue was pretty good. My only complaint was the bad jokes/dialogue by Superman Prime. I really hope it stops soon.

[Retro315]

Except, of course, that a bunch of people will argue that Ted's already been brought back to life, depending on how you interpret the end of Booster Gold 1000000 (and Katz has said that was meant to be Ted.) Replace Ted Kord with Maxwell Lord and you might be closer to the truth.

Lord might not "come back to life" but he's definitely already come back, since he brain was removed by Checkmate and bonded with a new "Eye" program to create Lord Eye.

Of course, that seems to have been smashed into oblivion by the Hawks, so if any writer or comic-book-plot device wants to raise Max Lord's body ... it doesn't have a brain.

[_OM_]

In Zero Hour the Time Trapper was revealed to be Cosmic Boy.

But then Zero Hour reset the DCU a little, and we were shown in one of the last panels a Time Trapper with long hair. It was presumed that by recreating the big bang, a new person was Time Trapper. Theories at the time were that it was a woman because of the long hair, and probably Saturn Girl.

...It was supposed to be Glorith, actually.

[Matthew E]

Or Lori Morning.

Or maybe Lori Morning as Glorith.

[Karl O'Neill]

No offense to anyone, but I hope this leads the way to a return to the original line-up of Johns' Teen Titans. That book has sucked so bad since these two characters left.

Well said JIM!

[Karl O'Neill]

In Zero Hour the Time Trapper was revealed to be Cosmic Boy.

But then Zero Hour reset the DCU a little, and we were shown in one of the last panels a Time Trapper with long hair. It was presumed that by recreating the big bang, a new person was Time Trapper. Theories at the time were that it was a woman because of the long hair, and probably Saturn Girl.

I like this better. This issue was pretty good. My only complaint was the bad jokes/dialogue by Superman Prime. I really hope it stops soon.

The dialogue is super.

[Yunlee]

Please read ''LEGION OF THREE WORLDS #4'' before even clicking this link (http://dcublog.dccomics.com/2009/04/30/please-read-legion-of-three-worlds-4-before-even-looking-at-this-post/)

[Karl O'Neill]

This issue the business. I loved every panel of it. I would consider this a classic. Much better than infinite crisis but not better than sinestro corps war.

[Charybdis4]

This is the best series out there at the moment.

The story moved so fast & the art was brilliant - I even liked Polar Boy!!!!

My big wish is that the "original/Johns" Legion stay (with no deaths) & the other 2 Legions bugger off somewhere, though XS can stay.

Great stuff

[Karl O'Neill]

Sun boy is so cool!

[Karl O'Neill]

confirmed

http://www.geoffjohns.com/2009/04/hes-baaaaaack/

[Samurai]

This is the best series out there at the moment.

The story moved so fast & the art was brilliant - I even liked Polar Boy!!!!

My big wish is that the "original/Johns" Legion stay (with no deaths) & the other 2 Legions bugger off somewhere, though XS can stay.

Great stuff

What I'd really like to see is a conglomerate Legion. Have some old-timers that are more experienced but perhaps more jaded as well, and some of the other 2 Legions' younger versions of characters. Choose an interesting mix, the best version of each character from all of the 3 Legions. There's only 1 Sunboy left, so that choice is simple, and I think a lot of the deaths are being used to whittle down the choices. I really like some of the newer versions of some of the characters, such as the 3-boot Triplicate Girl being an ambassador for an entire race of her selves.

I think that this combined "Legion from 3 Worlds" might not please everyone who wants a "pure" version of their favorite Legion, but at least 1/3 of their team would still be there, and they might find they like the other versions of the characters once they are all in a single universe and acting as a team. Plus it would validate everything that went before, rather than just 1 of them.

[Name Already Taken]

I just read this today and really dug it.

Now I'm just wondering how John's will rectify all the different Legion's confused history in #5. If the Legion from SbP's future is indeed that, will he consolidate and further water down the histories of each Legion in the end by merging them Deus ex Machina, or leave them separate with only one version remaining to be used down the line...

We know where Bart ends up, but what about Conner?

Thoughts? Use spoiler tags for those who haven't had a chance to read the issue yet

Worth the wait for me.

[F1uke]

Definitely worth the wait. I thought it was excellent. I think Superboy may say with the Legion..

[_OM_]

Or Lori Morning.

Or maybe Lori Morning as Glorith.

...IIRC, Peyer & Co. never did decide whether Glorith would wind up as having been a grown-up Lori. All the pieces and hints were in place, but the "Archie Legion" got wiped away to make room for the DnA version, and by the time the "Threeboot" debacle took place, Lori had been pretty much forgotten about.

Humorously, I've seen some speculation that had Lori survived the "Threeboot" mess, one could see a rather nauseating puppy love subplot between her and M'Rissy...:tongue:

[mswood]

I really liked it, but the only thing that bothered me (though I do understand why) is that you can clearly see that Perez's is not doing full pencil work.

The art is still really good (as Perez even doing just layouts, which this isn't, is better then most standard comic art).

I just wish this had enough lead time to allow Perez to do his detailed full pencils and ink his own work. Oh well that would have added about 8 months to this project.

[Charybdis4]

What I'd really like to see is a conglomerate Legion. Have some old-timers that are more experienced but perhaps more jaded as well, and some of the other 2 Legions' younger versions of characters. Choose an interesting mix, the best version of each character from all of the 3 Legions. There's only 1 Sunboy left, so that choice is simple, and I think a lot of the deaths are being used to whittle down the choices. I really like some of the newer versions of some of the characters, such as the 3-boot Triplicate Girl being an ambassador for an entire race of her selves.

I think that this combined "Legion from 3 Worlds" might not please everyone who wants a "pure" version of their favorite Legion, but at least 1/3 of their team would still be there, and they might find they like the other versions of the characters once they are all in a single universe and acting as a team. Plus it would validate everything that went before, rather than just 1 of them.

No sorry, I can see where you are going with it, but it just doesn't do it for me. The originals have more personality in their little fingers then some of the re-boots. I just love what Johns has done with the White Witch, Dawnstar, Wildfire in this arc & would hate them to go. I would hate it if characters like Umbra replace the original Shady or that rubbish new Timber Wolf.

It's probably going to happen though......

[dupersuper]

No sorry, I can see where you are going with it, but it just doesn't do it for me. The originals have more personality in their little fingers then some of the re-boots. I just love what Johns has done with the White Witch, Dawnstar, Wildfire in this arc & would hate them to go. I would hate it if characters like Umbra replace the original Shady or that rubbish new Timber Wolf.

It's probably going to happen though......

I also vote to leave the "original" Legion intact, but the other 2 can still be out there in the multiverse if any one wants stories about them. For that matter, why can't the "5 years later " Legion be another alternate version.

[_OM_]

For that matter, why can't the "5 years later " Legion be another alternate version.

...Because like "Threeboot", it doesn't deserve to be remembered?

[Matthew E]

...Because like "Threeboot", it doesn't deserve to be remembered?

Do you tend to react well when people say that about comic books you like?

[ForEverAncien]

-Reaction upon seeing a certain returniing face-

Oh Frak NO!

I guess DC got the legal snafus out of the way....

[OzBat!]

Now that we've had a pretty huge clue about one of the legion's homeworlds delivered into our laps, I'm wondering if this ties into the redemption that Superman is hoping for, for prime.

We already have a 3 legions adventure referenced that none of the participants can remember. Having three Saturn Girls in one place make that kind of mind-wipe a distinct possibility once again. Could Prime be stopped by the promise that his homeworld still exists, and wasn't wiped out like he thought? If he realised that everything he'd lashed out against was incorrect, would he submit to a mindwipe in order to go back with a "do-over"? And if so, would the Waid Legion then become the ones that are responsible for training Prime, the way the Johns legion trained Superman?

[Buried Alien]

Now that we've had a pretty huge clue about one of the legion's homeworlds delivered into our laps, I'm wondering if this ties into the redemption that Superman is hoping for, for prime.

We already have a 3 legions adventure referenced that none of the participants can remember. Having three Saturn Girls in one place make that kind of mind-wipe a distinct possibility once again. Could Prime be stopped by the promise that his homeworld still exists, and wasn't wiped out like he thought? If he realised that everything he'd lashed out against was incorrect, would he submit to a mindwipe in order to go back with a "do-over"? And if so, would the Waid Legion then become the ones that are responsible for training Prime, the way the Johns legion trained Superman?

A couple of thoughts on why that might be problematic.

First, the restoration of Earth-Prime in a future timeline wouldn't do much to mollify Superboy Prime in light of his previous demands. Even if the Threeboot Legion's Earth turns out to be Earth-Prime, it's not the Earth-Prime of 1985...when Prime's parents and girlfriend were still alive and well and a part of his life. An Earth-Prime without his idyllic childhood associates would not mean much to Superboy Prime.

Additionally, a mindwipe could relieve Superboy Prime's personal burden, but it wouldn't undo all the harm he's done to so many over the past few years. Those whom he killed would still be dead. Those whom he's maimed would still be maimed. Although Superboy Prime is notorious as the agent of the infamous "retcon punch," that option is no longer open to him because the paradise dimension that enabled his retcon punching no longer exists...or at least is inaccessible to Prime now. Even if it were accessible, we know that Superboy Prime's retcon punching doesn't result in changes to history that are consistent with his will. When he shatters time, time rebuilds itself according to its own logic...not according to Superboy Prime's will.

Given that he has no way of undoing what he has done, where should Prime find redemption for the murderous path he's blazed during the past few years? Beyond the actual acts of violence and destruction, Superboy Prime's main crime has been a crime of the mind: with the power of a Superman, Prime has violated the first rule of being a Superman...of being any kind of hero: he has chosen to sacrifice the good of others for his own self-interest. That is the antithesis of what a hero does. That is the antithesis of what a Superman does.

Remember what Superboy Prime was like when he was first introduced in DC COMICS PRESENTS and COIE: he was a good-hearted, brave, and noble kid...worthy of the name Superboy. Although his universe had already been wiped out by the Anti-Monitor, Prime's motivation in COIE wasn't, "How can I get revenge?" or "How can I compensate for the loss of my world?", but "How can I help the other heroes to defeat this menace to save the rest of the world, even if I don't have a place in it anymore?" THAT was the thinking of a hero. THAT was the thinking of a genuine Superman. Superboy Prime in COIE was willing to sacrifice his own self-interests to ensure that Superman of Earth-One would survive to return to his newly reconstituted universe, and that Superman of Earth-Two would not have to defeat the Anti-Monitor alone.

That's the mindset Superboy Prime must return to if he is to be redeemed.

How can he accomplish this? He must be prepared to sacrifice his own self-interests in favor of the interests of others. Remember that LEGION OF THREE WORLDS is billed as a part of FINAL CRISIS. Although to date, there seems to be no connection between L3W and FINAL CRISIS, perhaps a connection will be established in the final issue of L3W by having Superboy Prime sacrifice greatly of himself (his life or some equally valuable consideration) to supply Superman with the means to defeat Darkseid and Mandrakk. If you remember the end of FINAL CRISIS, Superman returned and suddenly had the means to defeat Darkseid and Mandrakk although there was little indication of just how Superman obtained the means for defeating the villains. Perhaps Superboy Prime, by sacrificing his self-interest in the final issue of L3W was somehow a key to Superman's discovering a way to defeat Darkseid and Mandrakk, and hence, the connection between L3W and FINAL CRISIS isn't just a cynical marketing tactic, but actually part of a cohesive storyline...one that we're getting belatedly because the original schedule didn't call for L3W to be delayed so long.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[big al]

best comic series I've read in along time, I loved every second of it, I totally loved the Polar Boy scenes, when he said "Long live the legion".....it was totally awsome. I thought FC was good, this is just as good if not better. Perez is fantastic.

I'm not even a legion fan but I don't think you have to be, this is a super-hero comic book, it's everything a super hero comic should be...it's incredible.

[Dial W for What the...?]

Now let's see if we can get the final issue before Thanksgiving. I mean I don't care how good the art or story is, in the long run the UNPROFESSIONAL way this series has been presented has me convinced that I'll just wait for any limited series by DC to just be collected in TPB form from now on. :mad:

[Karl O'Neill]

So at this point the only character that is going to ever stay dead is Ted Kord.

I want him back. Such a cool character. He figured out what the batman could not!

[bottlecityofkanga]

This series has been a real let down.

It's just another boring Superboy Prime series. The Legion are supporting characters in what is supposed to be their own mini series! If DC need to tie up loose ends with Kon El and Kid Flash I don't understand why they need the Legionnaires standing around in the background doing nothing except pop up as cannon fodder.

http://bottlecityofkanga.blogspot.com/2009/05/legion-of-three-worlds-slaughter.html

[_OM_]

Do you tend to react well when people say that about comic books you like?

...Yes, I do. Next question?


Now let's see if we can get the final issue before Thanksgiving.

...Of what year?


Although Superboy Prime is notorious as the agent of the infamous "retcon punch," that option is no longer open to him because the paradise dimension that enabled his retcon punching no longer exists...or at least is inaccessible to Prime now.

...Which is a fracking shame because I now see what would be the most fitting demise for the spoiled little psychotic bastard:

Prime: There! I made it! I'm back in the pocket universe! And there's what's left of the crystal wall! All I need to do is punch the hell out of it and I'll change reality again!

Superman: We've got to stop him!

Brainy: No, wait! Let him do it!

Brainy-2: What? Are you crazy?

Brainy-3: You must be. You're an adult!

Brainy: Just shut up and watch!

Prime: Here goes;;;

[POW!]

[Prime and the "Threeboot" Legion suddenly not only cease to exist, but they've never existed]

Superman: What are we doing here?

Brainy: Oh, nothing of any import. Let's get this other Legion back home where they belong.

Brainy-2: Funny, I could have sworn there was someone else here with us...

Brainy: Nobody of any import. Let's go home.

[MaxGoof]

No sorry, I can see where you are going with it, but it just doesn't do it for me. The originals have more personality in their little fingers then some of the re-boots. I just love what Johns has done with the White Witch, Dawnstar, Wildfire in this arc & would hate them to go. I would hate it if characters like Umbra replace the original Shady or that rubbish new Timber Wolf.

It's probably going to happen though......

I had to wait years to see Gates and XS again, and I'd be horrified to see them thrown away again. The original Legion are great characters, but Gates and XS are wonderful characters just as good and deserve to be kept around.

[Liberty Belle Fan]

This was an amazing issue, and one of the best comics I've read in a very long time. Awesome reveal that I feel wasn't spoiled completely by numerous articles, reviews, or podcasts like some of the others in the industry these days.

DC - You Rock!

[dupersuper]

Do you tend to react well when people say that about comic books you like?

I'm actually not even a fan. I've never even read an issue outside a guest appearance in the Time and Time again storyline in the Superman books. I just thought it would be a good chance to use the new multiverse to give all the fans the version they followed. Still, even as a guy who's never read the run, I agree the previous poster was needlessly nasty.

[_OM_]

Still, even as a guy who's never read the run, I agree the previous poster was needlessly nasty.

...Nasty? Nope. Direct and to the point? Yep. Deal with it, eh?

[Karl O'Neill]

This was an amazing issue, and one of the best comics I've read in a very long time. Awesome reveal that I feel wasn't spoiled completely by numerous articles, reviews, or podcasts like some of the others in the industry these days.

DC - You Rock!

I approve of this post!

[blackphoenix]

I actually got choked up when Conner came back...and they actually called him SUPERBOY(!). They never shoulda killed him in the first place. I'm gonna hafta wait for the trade for the rest of this cuz I missed parts 1-3.

[Karl O'Neill]

I actually got choked up when Conner came back...and they actually called him SUPERBOY(!). They never shoulda killed him in the first place. I'm gonna hafta wait for the trade for the rest of this cuz I missed parts 1-3.

Loved his return. looking forward to his new ongoing title as well.

[Shush]

Alot happening in the issue so can somebody explain how can Conner possibly beat Prime? Did he get a power up or something?

[Karl O'Neill]

Alot happening in the issue so can somebody explain how can Conner possibly beat Prime? Did he get a power up or something?

Well, he did not beat him yet.

I assume all the other heroes and connor will gang up on prime and defeat him somehow, someway.

[Sean Whitmore]

My happiness to see Superboy back is tempered by the fact that it's T-shirt, short-haired, half-Luthor, Johns Superboy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm liking this mini, but I haven't liked anything Johns has done with Superboy in the past. I can only hope that when all is said and done, there are other writers who want to play with him.


SEAN

[Calybos]

Anyone else thought about the implication of the old Prime?

He lives in the end of time. Imagine someone who saw the universe deteriorating for years BEYOND our measure to grasp!

That's seriously disturbing.

No need to imagine it! We've already seen how that type of experience drove Element Lad crazy in Legion Lost.

All answers can be found in the Legion's holy text....




That aside, this is the sort of tone I was hoping to see in Final Crisis. All-out action, tons of character moments, dazzling artwork. This--THIS is what comics should be. FUN!

Though I'm sad to see the only version of Kinetix destroyed... sniff. Oh well; as long as they also kill of the Sensor-Snake I'll call it even.





.

[THEDOC]

I'll be interested to see how "Old" Prime got his new powers, though still wondering if he is saying he was Trapper all long, or does each universe have their own TT, I mean Rokk was Trapper for a bit during Zero Hour. Man, time travel gives me a headache.

[lazlo_toth]

Now that we've had a pretty huge clue about one of the legion's homeworlds delivered into our laps, I'm wondering if this ties into the redemption that Superman is hoping for, for prime.

We already have a 3 legions adventure referenced that none of the participants can remember. Having three Saturn Girls in one place make that kind of mind-wipe a distinct possibility once again. Could Prime be stopped by the promise that his homeworld still exists, and wasn't wiped out like he thought? If he realised that everything he'd lashed out against was incorrect, would he submit to a mindwipe in order to go back with a "do-over"? And if so, would the Waid Legion then become the ones that are responsible for training Prime, the way the Johns legion trained Superman?


This would be a bad idea. Prime is a mass murderer on a scale that Hitler or Stalin or the Khmer Rouge can only dream about. I think there's a point to which a bad guy has done so much, and so deliberately, that you can't give him a mulligan. The level of atrocity has long ago went past the point where any kind of redemption is believable, or even desirable, in my opinion. I keep thinking of the Dark Phoenix Saga, and how Shooter made Claremont & Byrne change the original ending because Phoenix's crimes were so massive that the character had to pay for them. Thus, Phoenix died instead of being "cured."

[KYLeo71]

Can I get a 'Brainiac 5 of 3 Worlds' ongoing? Pretty Please? I could read an entire book of them doing nothing but arguing. lol

[Christopher Cross Is God]

<-------------------------Loves Emo Superboy written by Johns.



My happiness to see Superboy back is tempered by the fact that it's T-shirt, short-haired, half-Luthor, Johns Superboy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm liking this mini, but I haven't liked anything Johns has done with Superboy in the past. I can only hope that when all is said and done, there are other writers who want to play with him.


SEAN

I'm in total disagreement.

[marshal99]

We know prime survived this mini since he was wandering the multiverse in 52 after the series , still starking mad and crazy.

[Cyclopsj316]

bart is back.
conner is back.

i love this friggin' series... lol.

[Scott Taylor]

If you remember the end of FINAL CRISIS, Superman returned and suddenly had the means to defeat Darkseid and Mandrakk although there was little indication of just how Superman obtained the means for defeating the villains.

Superman Beyond covered that. He learned the nature of the game, and was able to use that knowledge to his advantage. Plus we know that at the end of this mini, Brainiac 5 will be showing him the Miracle Machine before he goes back to his own time.

Seems the only path to Prime's redemption will have to do with his family. Every time Superman has brought it up, Prime's answer is "They're dead." The key is to be able to show Prime that he can go back and live a normal life again. And then hopefully to have him die tragically. Phoenix treatment seems about right.

[Karl O'Neill]

We know prime survived this mini since he was wandering the multiverse in 52 after the series , still starking mad and crazy.

Wrong.

Prime= Infinite crisis then sinestro corps war then countdown to final crisis then legion of 3 worlds.

what's next? we will see.

[Mat001]

Alot happening in the issue so can somebody explain how can Conner possibly beat Prime? Did he get a power up or something?

He doesn't. That's what Superboy-Prime said. He still managed to kill everyone and become the Time Trapper. The only one who can stop Superboy-Prime is Superboy-Prime and he doesn't want to stop. You cannot simply beat a Pre-Crisis Kryptonian into submission. They have to convince him to stop the madness.

[Rio_de_Janeiro]

maybe this is a stupid question, but has any mention of celeste rockfish been made? i don't get the title here in brazil, and the publishing here has only now reached rage of the red lanterns...

[_OM_]

He doesn't. That's what Superboy-Prime said. He still managed to kill everyone and become the Time Trapper. The only one who can stop Superboy-Prime is Superboy-Prime and he doesn't want to stop. You cannot simply beat a Pre-Crisis Kryptonian into submission. They have to convince him to stop the madness.

...Or you find Krypton-Prime's version of Gold K. Then six seconds after he's exposed to it and vunerable, he gets to do impressions. First of Risk, then of Pantha. That way, Didio can make more jokes about Prime's head bouncing around from event to event.


maybe this is a stupid question, but has any mention of celeste rockfish been made?

...Celeste and Kent Shakespear were the only two characters added during the Bierbaum debacle that I would have loved to have seen reintroduced somehow. Granted, the Legion had Dr. Gymll, but having a trained field medic like Kent would have come in handy. Most of the time the team went out, got hurt, and there never seemed to be any triage before getting the wounded back to the Clubhouse.

[dupersuper]

...Nasty? Nope. Direct and to the point? Yep. Deal with it, eh?

I'm sticking with nasty. Excuse yourself however you like.

[Crisis]

i just say _OM is Superboy-Prime the attitude fits.:tongue:

[Calybos]

maybe this is a stupid question, but has any mention of celeste rockfish been made? i don't get the title here in brazil, and the publishing here has only now reached rage of the red lanterns...

None of the "Five Years Later" characters have been mentioned so far. No Celeste, Devlin, Furball, Kono, Kent Shakespeare, Bounty, Ivy, Laurel, etc. etc.



.

[Mat001]

...Or you find Krypton-Prime's version of Gold K. Then six seconds after he's exposed to it and vunerable, he gets to do impressions. First of Risk, then of Pantha. That way, Didio can make more jokes about Prime's head bouncing around from event to event.

The Legion aren't killers, remember. And while we know right now that Green Kryptonite of a particular sort can hurt him, who is to say that Gold K existed in the universe of Earth-Prime?

[Matthew E]

None of the "Five Years Later" characters have been mentioned so far. No Celeste, Devlin, Furball, Kono, Kent Shakespeare, Bounty, Ivy, Laurel, etc. etc.

.

Leaving out Furball (who wasn't exclusively a 5YL character), it's true that none of those have been mentioned... but Dragonmage was, and he's from 5YL continuity.

[_OM_]

Leaving out Furball (who wasn't exclusively a 5YL character).

..."Furball" was yet another way the Bierbaums lived out their Legion APA fanfics fetishes by picking on Timber Wolf. In fact, everyone involved with the Five Year Crap had some sort of sick problem with at least one or two of the Legionnaires. Giffen's hatred of Karate Kid is infamous, and the Bierbaums also admittedly despised Wildfire for reasons they never really would give a straight story for. I'll give them some credit for Flying Buttress...er...Andromeda, but even that got screwed up later during the Peyer run when they made her a fracking cosmic nun.

[KissinDigital]

Sorry for being too lazy to read the whole thread but has anyone considered how Time Trapper has apparently been revealed several times before as a variety of people?

Either he's a hell of a legacy character or he's something of a shape shifter, becoming whoever is most psychologically damaging to Trapper's current opponent. Quite possible it's not really Prime at all.

[And I'm clinging to this hope cos I hate that guy and wish someone would bend him over their knee and give him a good ass whoopin.]

[Buried Alien]

Sorry for being too lazy to read the whole thread but has anyone considered how Time Trapper has apparently been revealed several times before as a variety of people?

Either he's a hell of a legacy character or he's something of a shape shifter, becoming whoever is most psychologically damaging to Trapper's current opponent. Quite possible it's not really Prime at all.

[And I'm clinging to this hope cos I hate that guy and wish someone would bend him over their knee and give him a good ass whoopin.]

I've long hoped that "someone" would be the man who first discovered him: Pre-COIE Silver/Bronze Age Earth-One Superman. That dude is loooong gone, however.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Walter West]

I've long hoped that "someone" would be the man who first discovered him: Pre-COIE Silver/Bronze Age Earth-One Superman. That dude is loooong gone, however.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

You say this, and yet you never stopped hoping for Barry Allen to come back. I'm a bit surprised. :confused:

[_OM_]

I've long hoped that "someone" would be the man who first discovered him: Pre-COIE Silver/Bronze Age Earth-One Superman. That dude is loooong gone, however.[/COLOR]

...Hey, they've got to save *something* for DC's Centennial Crisis in 2039 :tongue:

[Buried Alien]

You say this, and yet you never stopped hoping for Barry Allen to come back. I'm a bit surprised. :confused:

The possibility for Barry to come back was always out there because he was a distinct character from Wally West or the other Flashes. With Earth-One Superman, DC's tendency is to write him off as having been "folded into" or been "reincarnated" as the Post-COIE Superman, which essentially puts him outside the possibility of revival because he doesn't exist as a distinct entity anymore.

I also feel this way about the Pre-COIE Supergirl and the Pre-COIE Earth-One Wonder Woman. They are distinct characters from their currently active counterparts, and I've never been keen on the idea that DC treats them as if they never existed...especially as these characters were standard-bearers for decades.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[heffison]

He doesn't. That's what Superboy-Prime said. He still managed to kill everyone and become the Time Trapper. The only one who can stop Superboy-Prime is Superboy-Prime and he doesn't want to stop. You cannot simply beat a Pre-Crisis Kryptonian into submission. They have to convince him to stop the madness.


Actually, he said that they'll lose, not that they necessarily all get killed. In any case, we know Conner can't handle Prime without a lot of help, and we know that he is part of Brainy's "psychological warfare" on Prime. Conner was never expected to beat Prime into submission.

So Prime Trapper says the Legions will lose, but Mordru had absorbed a vision saying that unless Prime destroyed the Fortress at once (before Conner was done cooking) the Legions would be victorious. Who's right?

[Karl O'Neill]

Did anyone get a idea that that comment mordru made to superman is in ref to the upcoming superman secret origin book by johns? As in Mordru will fight superman for the first time there?

[_OM_]

Did anyone get a idea that that comment mordru made to superman is in ref to the upcoming superman secret origin book by johns? As in Mordru will fight superman for the first time there?

...Caught that as well. Can't think of any other wizard worthy of being the first to demonstrate Clark's vunerability to magic, and why Clark keeps knocking Mordru's teeth out every chance he can get. :tongue:

[Vic Vega]

Actually, he said that they'll lose, not that they necessarily all get killed. In any case, we know Conner can't handle Prime without a lot of help, and we know that he is part of Brainy's "psychological warfare" on Prime. Conner was never expected to beat Prime into submission.

So Prime Trapper says the Legions will lose, but Mordru had absorbed a vision saying that unless Prime destroyed the Fortress at once (before Conner was done cooking) the Legions would be victorious. Who's right?

I'm surprised LSV and Prime have lasted as long as they have. There are three Ultra Boys 2 Mon-El's and Andromeda on the Legions' side.

In the vision Mordru saw Prime was nowhere in sight, if I remeber rightly. There's nothing saying that he couldn't of bailed on them when he saw they were losing.:biggrin:

[KYLeo71]

I thought it was interesting that they flashed back to the 1st Legion/Time Trapper meeting back in Adventure when Glorith turned the Legion into kids. I suppose that's stilli n continuity (considering I can never be sure what's what with the new-old Legion). I wonder if there's more meaning to that panel than just showing their first in-person meeting (considering that it also showed Glorith in what was her only appearance until they dug her up and used her to rewrite Legion history in the late-80s).

[Chemical King]

Splendid issue. Just splendid. Especially loved the extraordinary Polar Boy / Sun Boy character moment. Stuff I waited 15 years for...

Currently looks like the ranks are getting decimated not as badly as we Legion fans feared, considering the fact that "Titans Killer" Superboy Prime is the bad guy. Big whiner in my eyes, by the way. Anyway, I am getting this feeling that Johns is keeping the scythe away from the classic characters, instead getting rid of some minor supporting cast of the Reboot and Threeboot. Strong indication that the "old continuity" will be the one surviving after all this. Really would make me happy if the would be going from there in some new book.

No words can match the sheer brilliance of George Perez artwork AND Scott Koblishs excellent inking (way better than Wiaceks job recently at Brave and the Bold). I love this man. If it takes him another three months to finish #5 - so be it, I'm willing to defend Perez against any criticism out there - he is the absolute number one in the industry in my eyes!

[Fallman]

I remember reading somewhere that while there would always be a Time Trapper at the end of time, the Trapper's identity wasn't set in stone, and the actions of people in the past could change who the Trapper actually was. Was that true, or just fanwank on someone's part?

[Jason1Kent]

This book lays way for Adventure comics and so allll is good with Superboy back,! Also heard Jim Lee would love to do a Legion book , hmmmmmmmmmmmm............................Johns and Lee, Legion? HELL YEAH!

[_OM_]

This book lays way for Adventure comics and so allll is good with Superboy back,! Also heard Jim Lee would love to do a Legion book , hmmmmmmmmmmmm............................Johns and Lee, Legion? HELL YEAH!

...And you thought LO3W was late.

[Absent-minded Prof]

...Nasty? Nope. Direct and to the point? Yep. Deal with it, eh?

Which is your way of justifying what is really an arrogant disregard for others' opinions that are in the end just as valid as your own opinion - which is nothing more than that. Show a little respect.

Speaking as a Legion fan continuously from 1967 to the present, I have found good and bad in each incarnation. In some the balance shifts further towards one than the other - for me. Yes, my least favorite version has been the Threeboot, but even there I found enjoyment - and I know people whose judgment I respect for whom that is, for whatever reason, their Legion. Perhaps it was because that was their first Legion - and that does seem to be a pattern: a fan's first Legion is often "their" Legion. On the other had, I consider parts of the 5-year gap Legion to have been pure gold. I for one wish it were not neglected altogether in the current mix of Legions - but I sort of understand why it has been. I'm surprised that I've never seen any commentary on how much the mood established for what we might call the Geoff Johns Legion, which is sort of but not exactly the original, does parallel the mood of the early part of the 5yGap Legion. And, rightly or wrongly, that's what I'm taking Johns' Legion as - his version of the 5yGap.

Cheers, The Prof

[_OM_]

Which is your way of justifying ...<SNIP>

...We've already moved past this. You're late.


Cheers, The Prof

...Never could figure out why people add "Cheers" to their posts, thinking it'll make a flame all better. But as I said, deal with it.

[Mat001]

...And you thought LO3W was late.

It would only be late if Jim Lee was asked to work on another project at the same time. Remember, Lee kept up for 12 issues of Batman and later Superman. It was when he did All-Star Batman & Robin that the lateness came in. Partly from Miller and partly from Lee agreeing to do the designs for DC Universe Online. He can do 12 months at a crack so long as he doesn't take on more work than he can handle.

[lazlo_toth]

This book lays way for Adventure comics and so allll is good with Superboy back,! Also heard Jim Lee would love to do a Legion book , hmmmmmmmmmmmm............................Johns and Lee, Legion? HELL YEAH!

After Waid & Kitson, I'm surprised any longtime Legion fan is anything but skeptical of ANY potential new title while Didio is in charge. And I'm not convinced that there will even be a new Legion book in the first place. My take is that DC is going to run Adventure Comics into the ground and then use its demise as an excuse to just ignore the Legion entirely, which is what I think Didio has wanted to do all along...

[IvCNuB4]

Meeoowww, dude :wink:

[Mat001]

See, there's a biased fan who sees the negative. The matter is simple. There isn't an agenda on Didio's end to get rid of the Legion. What happened is that the book has suffered for years, long before Didio came on board. Ever since the first Crisis series, the Legion have suffered in one aspect or another. And last I checked, Didio wasn't working in comics in 1985. Unless you think he has mastered time travel and disguised himself as Jeanette Kahn. All that's happening is merging the best aspects of the Legion together and create a unified version that ties into Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Mon-El and Bart Allen.

[lazlo_toth]

See, there's a biased fan who sees the negative. The matter is simple. There isn't an agenda on Didio's end to get rid of the Legion. What happened is that the book has suffered for years, long before Didio came on board. Ever since the first Crisis series, the Legion have suffered in one aspect or another. And last I checked, Didio wasn't working in comics in 1985. Unless you think he has mastered time travel and disguised himself as Jeanette Kahn. All that's happening is merging the best aspects of the Legion together and create a unified version that ties into Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Mon-El and Bart Allen.

Has any of this happened yet, this merging of timelines into one unified version? Do you have inside knowledge of what the final result of all this is, or are you speculating like everyone else, me included? I'm biased because there is now an established track record of DC f'ing up the Legion. Who cares where Didio was in 1985? Where did the year 1985 come into any of this? The rot didn't start to set in until 1990, when Giffen's already risky Legion book got editorially fubared. THAT, at least, wasn't Didio's fault, sure, but he WAS on board in 2004 when the ill-conceived Waid/Kitson threeboot went down, and the previous Legion was summarily ended with plot threads still dangling. He was on board during the whole debacle with Jim Shooter, and the abrupt cancellation of the Legion's title yet again, and again with major plot threads unresolved. I don't think he stays up at night dreaming of eradicating the Legion, but I do think he has absolutely no enthusiasm for the title, and doesn't care one way or another. The last couple of years's worth of garbage happened on his watch, so the buck stops with him. Unless, of course, a younger Jenette Kahn somehow got into a time machine and came to the future and somehow mind-controlled him.

If and when DC figures out how to produce a really great Legion title, one that realizes even a smidgeon of its potential, I'll be there. But after Giffen in 1989, the Zero Hour reboot in 1994, Legion Lost in 2000 (OK title, and DnA built it up well, but DC pulled the plug on it the second they left), and most especially Waid & Kitson in 2004 (on paper, a Legion dream team, but probably the lamest interpretation of all of them, built on a flimsy premise), I am not taking anything on faith. I stuck with every pile of crap DC shovelled out with a Legion logo on it, and in each instance the final payoff was severe disappointment.

And let's not forget that the Legion, who have had their own title, good or bad, for as long as I've been alive, are now delegated to backup stories, playing second fiddle to Superboy. Why on earth would any Legion fan be excited or happy with that arrangement?

[Matthew E]

The Legion has a long history of good comics coming as a result of ill-advised decisions. The best Legion runs (5YL, DnA) and quite a few of the other good ones (late Levitz, early reboot, threeboot, SW6, animated) have all come since Crisis. I don't doubt that DC can put out good Legion comics again, regardless of whatever decisions they're going to make, are making, or have recently made.

My problem is that there are no Legion comics anymore. There's one issue left of FC:L3W, and after that, nothing. Some guest appearances and stuff by one Legionnaire at a time in Superman and Adventure; yippee skip.

It's hard to believe that not long ago the Legion had two monthly titles, their own TV show, their own Happy Meal toys and guest appearances all over the place. I liked it better then.

[vinniewarlock]

Don't talk bad about Legion Threebot... I actually liked it better than The Reboot Legion and Legion Lost...

[Paul Newell]

And let's not forget that the Legion, who have had their own title, good or bad, for as long as I've been alive, are now delegated to backup stories, playing second fiddle to Superboy. Why on earth would any Legion fan be excited or happy with that arrangement?
Exact same thing hapened in 1970. The only thing that saved them was Legion fandom organising and taking the fight to DC.

Something I doubt could happen today, however, as Legion fandom is too fragmented, concentrating on nothing but "their Legion", not the concept itself.

These days I see the majority too busy campaigning against the Legion rather than for the Legion. :(

[Vic Vega]

Which is your way of justifying what is really an arrogant disregard for others' opinions that are in the end just as valid as your own opinion - which is nothing more than that. Show a little respect.

Speaking as a Legion fan continuously from 1967 to the present, I have found good and bad in each incarnation. In some the balance shifts further towards one than the other - for me. Yes, my least favorite version has been the Threeboot, but even there I found enjoyment - and I know people whose judgment I respect for whom that is, for whatever reason, their Legion. Perhaps it was because that was their first Legion - and that does seem to be a pattern: a fan's first Legion is often "their" Legion. On the other had, I consider parts of the 5-year gap Legion to have been pure gold. I for one wish it were not neglected altogether in the current mix of Legions - but I sort of understand why it has been. I'm surprised that I've never seen any commentary on how much the mood established for what we might call the Geoff Johns Legion, which is sort of but not exactly the original, does parallel the mood of the early part of the 5yGap Legion. And, rightly or wrongly, that's what I'm taking Johns' Legion as - his version of the 5yGap.

Cheers, The Prof

Well with 3 issues to go, we don't KNOW that FYG Legion will be ignored.

Unless there is a spoiler somewhere I haven't read yet.

They may show up later. We may learn to which of the 52 worlds they belong.

They've crammed a lot into 4 issues, so it's not impossible.

[Matthew E]

Three issues to go? One issue to go.

It's not impossible, but here's the problem: one of the main points of what Johns seems to be trying to do is to reforge the relationship between Superman and the Legion. And the 5YL Legion didn't have that. In fact, it was a plot point that they didn't have that.

Plus, as much as many of us liked the 5YL Legion... I can see how it would be kinda difficult to work with as a comic book writer.

(And let's not forget: there were a lot of people who hated it.)

[lazlo_toth]

Exact same thing hapened in 1970. The only thing that saved them was Legion fandom organising and taking the fight to DC.

Something I doubt could happen today, however, as Legion fandom is too fragmented, concentrating on nothing but "their Legion", not the concept itself.

These days I see the majority too busy campaigning against the Legion rather than for the Legion. :(

Alas, I fear you are correct. In the 70s, you had the more or less sudden disappearance of a consistently good series into editorial limbo for no apparent reason. This time, you have a series that has had some high points in the midst of almost 20 years of stupid decisions, and has basically been a bloody mess. Johns' current work taps into a version of the Legion that hasn't been seen since the spring of 1989 when Levitz left. A lot of longtime fans, me included, see the eight years or so that he wrote LSH as something of a golden age, certainly the standard all subsequent writers will be compared to (just as, I'm sure, fans of longer duration than myself compare everything to Shooter & Swan). If you consider the 5YG Legion to be distinct from the "classic" Legion (which I think you should), there's been three separate Legion continuities that have come into existence, stuck around for a couple of years so that readers had time to get used to it, and then summarily dismissed. I've no doubt whatever Legion emerges in Adventure will itself be distinct enough from "classic" continuity to require some homework.

This is nothing more or less than DC abusing the loyalty of a core group of fans that have put up with an awful lot of crap, and have been rewarded with more crap. Would it be that much of a surprise if a lot of LSH fans decided they'd had enough? Can anyone blame them if that's the case?

[Scott Taylor]

What if there is no one who wants to write the LSH or, maybe a better way of putting it, is worthy of writing LSH? I'm willing to wait a few years for DC to really be committed to the Legion and for a really great writer ready to take the reigns, rather than having half-assed, tickytack LSH now.

The 80s run was well worth the long wait, for instance. Well worth it.

[Mat001]

Has any of this happened yet, this merging of timelines into one unified version? Do you have inside knowledge of what the final result of all this is, or are you speculating like everyone else, me included?

A while back, last year, DC presented a new version of Rip Hunter's chalkboard, only as a dry eraser board. One of the notations was 1,000 divided by 3 equals 1.

http://evilavatar.com/images/thumbs/comics/DC-Board.JPG

There's also what was said in Superman #685, with Clark wondering why his ring didn't take him to the future to get the serum for Mon-El. He realizes that something is wrong in the future.


I'm biased because there is now an established track record of DC f'ing up the Legion. Who cares where Didio was in 1985? Where did the year 1985 come into any of this? The rot didn't start to set in until 1990, when Giffen's already risky Legion book got editorially fubared. THAT, at least, wasn't Didio's fault, sure, but he WAS on board in 2004 when the ill-conceived Waid/Kitson threeboot went down, and the previous Legion was summarily ended with plot threads still dangling. He was on board during the whole debacle with Jim Shooter, and the abrupt cancellation of the Legion's title yet again, and again with major plot threads unresolved. I don't think he stays up at night dreaming of eradicating the Legion, but I do think he has absolutely no enthusiasm for the title, and doesn't care one way or another. The last couple of years's worth of garbage happened on his watch, so the buck stops with him. Unless, of course, a younger Jenette Kahn somehow got into a time machine and came to the future and somehow mind-controlled him.

If and when DC figures out how to produce a really great Legion title, one that realizes even a smidgeon of its potential, I'll be there. But after Giffen in 1989, the Zero Hour reboot in 1994, Legion Lost in 2000 (OK title, and DnA built it up well, but DC pulled the plug on it the second they left), and most especially Waid & Kitson in 2004 (on paper, a Legion dream team, but probably the lamest interpretation of all of them, built on a flimsy premise), I am not taking anything on faith. I stuck with every pile of crap DC shovelled out with a Legion logo on it, and in each instance the final payoff was severe disappointment.

And let's not forget that the Legion, who have had their own title, good or bad, for as long as I've been alive, are now delegated to backup stories, playing second fiddle to Superboy. Why on earth would any Legion fan be excited or happy with that arrangement?

The problems with the Legion began in 1985, because of the first Crisis which changed Superman's involvement in the Legion, which lead to reboot after reboot. That's why the Time Trapper is the villain of "Legion Of 3 Worlds". Everything traces back to the first Crisis and "The Greatest Superhero Who Ever Lived", and why the Legion have been the way they are since then. All Johns has been doing is putting it all back together in context, since everyone else split it up. And if you read "Superman & The Legion Of Super-Heroes", you'd see classic Legion elements brought back to life.

As to being in Adventure Comics again, it's where they started and where DC hopes to revitalize them again. Superboy has had his own comic as well and is once again in AC. It's a place to start.

[Chemical King]

As I stated over at the Legion board, the major problem - as with many other series today - is the constant change of the writing team.

Levitz run was so good because Levitz was on it for such a long time, even had been on the title once before for a shorter tenure. He knew the characters, and he build up storylines which lasted for long. It was consistent and had kind of an organic flow.

The Reboot was at its best (it started out as total crap in my eyes) when DnA were on the book for about 4 years, developing a more than decent SciFi story out of a kiddie book. Quite a feat.

Then for no obvious reason they killed that continuity again and brought on a writer without a plan.

Okay now we have three or more continuities, 5YL being an Elseworld in my eyes cause though it was great, there's no way to fit it back into continuity again. But when you look back ten years, the JSA was equally continuity challenged back then - Crisis on infinite Earths eradicated a handful of their main characters! - and still, with decent (and consistent!) storywriting Robinson & Johns were able to make the franchise into a solid seller again. Nobody talks about the complexity of JSA history today - so many people just read and enjoy it, maybe a little bit scared now that Johns is leaving after such a long time.

But the basic message is: Put a decent writer on the Legion, let him write it without Didio interference for a few years, and the Legion could be back as a mainstay of the DCU like JSA managed to do one decade before. Jim Shooter went into the right direction, making the Threeboot carbon copy characters into Legionnaires I cared for again.

And if Legion fans would just buy the book then - instead of complaining that it is not the real Legion even though it looks quite like it because Johns retconned stuff in and out of continuity - there might be a chance that this plan would work.

Might be.

[Paul Newell]

The Reboot was at its best (it started out as total crap in my eyes) when DnA were on the book for about 4 years, developing a more than decent SciFi story out of a kiddie book. Quite a feat.

Then for no obvious reason they killed that continuity again and brought on a writer without a plan.
Sales isn't the obvious reason? And the plan was to raise sales from what I remember.

[paulski]

See, there's a biased fan who sees the negative. The matter is simple. There isn't an agenda on Didio's end to get rid of the Legion. What happened is that the book has suffered for years, long before Didio came on board.

Agreed. Considering how badly the latest book performed after Waid/Kitson left, it should have been canned ages before its eventual demise with #50. As it was, DC tried whatever they could to improve sales - including sticking Jim Shooter back on it! - but to no avail.

I'm sure a Johns-written LSH would succeed for at least the short-term, but Geoff can't be expected to write everything at DC. Nevertheless, I guess we'll see what his Legion looks like shortly in Adventure... :smile:

[Chemical King]

Sales isn't the obvious reason? And the plan was to raise sales from what I remember.

Yeah but do you have to kill the whole continuity just to boost sales? Especially for a lukewarm new approach that must have looked dull even in the planning stage?

I mean, Waid could have been given the book, and his writing and Kitsons art might have lured some fans into it without starting all over... AGAIN...

As far as I know, sales were down within a year again, boosted once more by the inclusion of Supergirl, then down again. You can argue that DC might have hoped that Waids run would have sold better. But to kill your whole continuity just for some odd possibility that it MIGHT sell better? Nonsense, especially considering the fact that there are supposedly tons of fans leaving once you kill of "their" version of the book...

[paulski]

I agree with you there, as do thousands of other readers I'd expect. Rebooting - or whatever they want to call it - yet again was just a dumb move, especially given how high the quality of the Abnett/Lanning/Legion Lost era was. That was a book I would have been happy to call the LSH and continue collecting ad infinitum.

But then, sometimes these companies try something genuinely thinking it'll work out better and it just doesn't turn out that way. I'm not going to hang them for trying to improve a book and failing. Even if it was to such an impressive extent as the last Legion series... :smile:

[Matthew E]

Has anybody actually taken a look at the sales charts for the Legion? They get posted on the Legion Omnicom and the Legion Worlds boards every now and then.

Sales were the lowest during the reboot era before DnA took over. They perked up a bit, but were still low, while DnA were creating the book. They got much higher during the threeboot, and, yes, deteriorated over time, but I don't think they got down to DnA levels until right near the end (when it was obvious to everybody that it was dead on its feet). I'm sure DC wished that the sales for the threeboot Legion had been higher, but it certainly wasn't selling so poorly that it had to be cancelled.

[Paul Newell]

Yeah but do you have to kill the whole continuity just to boost sales? Especially for a lukewarm new approach that must have looked dull even in the planning stage?
One of the main problems has always been the old furphy that the Legion is too complicated to get into. Not just continuity, but "too many characters", "too much information to remember", etc. For the last 15-20 years the Legion has had the image of being "incomprehensible. It's not the reality, but it's the perception amongst non-fans of the Legion. Even the Reboot suffered from this. They had two options, go back to the time when the Legion was still popular or get rid of all the baggage and start from scratch. They tried both. And I highly doubt they would have tried either if they appeared dull at the planning stage.

I mean, Waid could have been given the book, and his writing and Kitsons art might have lured some fans into it without starting all over... AGAIN...
At that point they'd tried a new creative team, then a new #1, then bringing in a relatively popular 21st Century character as a team member. They'd tried all sorts of things and none of them had worked.

As far as I know, sales were down within a year again, boosted once more by the inclusion of Supergirl, then down again. You can argue that DC might have hoped that Waids run would have sold better. But to kill your whole continuity just for some odd possibility that it MIGHT sell better? Nonsense, especially considering the fact that there are supposedly tons of fans leaving once you kill of "their" version of the book...
In all instances, apart from after they announced the cancellation, the last series sold higher than the Reboot had for the 5 years previous. They gained at least 5000 readers on DnA's numbers...That apparently wasn't enough. Besides, nothing else they had tried had worked....I think that the Threeboot and John's Legion were the last roll of the dice. I think they would try anything once before giving up on the property.

[Paul Newell]

Has anybody actually taken a look at the sales charts for the Legion? They get posted on the Legion Omnicom and the Legion Worlds boards every now and then.

Sales were the lowest during the reboot era before DnA took over. They perked up a bit, but were still low, while DnA were creating the book. They got much higher during the threeboot, and, yes, deteriorated over time, but I don't think they got down to DnA levels until right near the end (when it was obvious to everybody that it was dead on its feet). I'm sure DC wished that the sales for the threeboot Legion had been higher, but it certainly wasn't selling so poorly that it had to be cancelled.
You know I don't think anyone actually does look at the sales figures. Or, at least, they wilfully ignore them.

[Chemical King]

Paul, I totally get your accessibility argument but... it's impossible to get around that fact. I mean, take the Shooter run, why didn't more people pick that one up? Because, again, they probably thought: Too many characters, too much history, period. And the book was about three years old then. So if you follow that accessibility argument, you would have to reboot your book at least every three years, thus loosing your last loyal fans.

And in the end, access to the Legion isn't all that had if you really are feeling like reading a SciFi superhero book. A friend of mine, a Marvel True Believer, who never had read any Legion book in his life, once borrowed my 5YL run and totally loved it. Later on, he became a regular buyer of the DnA run from Legion Lost on. Funnily, he did not make it much farther than 5 issues into the Threeboot before skipping the book - thus this "fresh new approach" lost a Marvel fan become Legion reader.

So to me, it's all about marketing and supporting your books. I mean, there are probably a lot more Green Lanterns out there these days than Legionnaires. Still, the GL franchise - probably rightly so - is considered the hottest DC property these days, and the upcoming Blackest Night event is luring poeple on board who have never given a damn about GL. Are they scared away by the large ensemble? Obviously not. Large ensembles are "en vogue" in theaters and especially TV these days. See Lost, Heroes, The Wire, True Blood, you name them. The TV makers do "previously on Lost" like synopsis every issue, and everybody is able to follow the show.

Now with DC hardly marketing the Legion at all - and stubbornly refusing to add synopsis to their books even in the most convoluted instances like "Final Crisis" - it's probably no wonder that readers don't jump on the Legion bandwagon. But done right, like GL or JSA ten years ago, it would be no problem to sell a large ensemble book these days - it's just a matter of wanting or not wanting it...

[Matthew E]

I mean, take the Shooter run, why didn't more people pick that one up?

I think a partial reason is that they saw Geoff Johns's retroboot Legion appearing prominently all over DC's other comics, and figured that it was only a matter of time before the retroboot drove out the threeboot, and why start in on a comic that wasn't going anywhere?

[md62]

That's the reason I didn't continue buying the Legion book. I picked up & enjoyed Waid's version but saw the handwriting on the wall when the JLA/JSA crossover came out that had the original Legion....

[lazlo_toth]

Anyone who seriously tries to claim that there are too many characters in the Legion or that the concept is too complicated to understand simply does not know what they're talking about. Yeah, there's a lot of legionnaires, but how many f#@%king X-Men are there? And don't forget all the other side teams, X-Kids and X-Pervs and X-Crement and all those...trying to put together a cohesive picture of THAT franchise, just in the nine or ten years of Quesada's tenure as EIC, is a daunting task. Morrison had some great ideas, and since he left it seems that Marvel has deliberately dismantled all of it as quickly as they possibly could, and replaced it with stuff that's dumber and more complicated. Is Wolverine Weapon X or is he Weapon Ten? Was he ever really Weapon Ten? And how bad is it when a story intended to simplify things by cutting out the vast majority of the MU's mutants only makes everything even more of a cock-up? Anyone who casts aspersions on the Legion while still getting into the X-titles is kind of a hypocrite, coz they're a colossal bloody mess and have been for years.

[Chemical King]

Totally agree with you on the X-Men. But I don't know what kind of people are the X-Target audience these days. Probably not the Legion audience.

I really liked a lot of the X-Men stuff until Age of Apocalypse. After that, I cannot remember one single decent storyline. I quit the X-Books way before the Morrison tenure.

But still, X-Men is seen as easily accessible with jump-on issues every two years, while Legion has a bad reputation.

The only good thing about X-books is that they have never been rebooted - even though i wouldn't dare to break down their last 30 years of history without getting mad :eek:

But it's like I said above: It's all about marketing and reputation, not about writing. Give us a Retroboot Legion book with some Secret Files stuff to catch on to the characters, and hype it like there no tomorrow as the new SciFi adventure of the next decade - and it definitely would sell.

[marvelprince]

Anyone who seriously tries to claim that there are too many characters in the Legion or that the concept is too complicated to understand simply does not know what they're talking about. Yeah, there's a lot of legionnaires, but how many f#@%king X-Men are there? And don't forget all the other side teams, X-Kids and X-Pervs and X-Crement and all those...trying to put together a cohesive picture of THAT franchise, just in the nine or ten years of Quesada's tenure as EIC, is a daunting task. Morrison had some great ideas, and since he left it seems that Marvel has deliberately dismantled all of it as quickly as they possibly could, and replaced it with stuff that's dumber and more complicated. Is Wolverine Weapon X or is he Weapon Ten? Was he ever really Weapon Ten? And how bad is it when a story intended to simplify things by cutting out the vast majority of the MU's mutants only makes everything even more of a cock-up? Anyone who casts aspersions on the Legion while still getting into the X-titles is kind of a hypocrite, coz they're a colossal bloody mess and have been for years.

As a person who was able to jump in fairly easily into the X-Men titles and who's tried to get into the Legion a few times over the years I can tell you that this is BS. There's no comparison about the "mucked up" backstory of Logan or the other X-Men when looking at all the different of the Legion members over the years. Now I have no idea who wrote what, and what continuity who belonged in, but I've tried many times to jump on board the Legion but its never made any sense. I picked up the first LO3W to give the concept another shot, and despite the great story was not tempted to follow the series due to the "other" Legions that joined in. I came back on board and picked up the rest of the issues due to hearing about Bart and Conner coming back and was hugely impressed with a lot of the characters so depending on how it ends may pick up Adventure to read more about them.

This might seem like a dumb question, but which of the Legions was the one that came back in time during the Lightning Saga arc of the JLA/JSA. Thats the one that Starman is a part of and that Karate Kid was a member of right?

[CYOTI]

The original

[THEDOC]

So which Legion was it that had Conner as a member, was that The Legion Lost one?

[Karl O'Neill]

So which Legion was it that had Conner as a member, was that The Legion Lost one?

I don't think they said so yet.

[Kevinroc]

I don't think they said so yet.

No, a Legion team already had Conner as a member.

And yes, that was the post-ZH, pre-Infinite Crisis Legion. Kon was a member for a little bit just before the Waid/ Kitson revamp of Infinite Crisis.

[THEDOC]

Right, they pulled him from the future and he was there a while, even had a Superboy type costume, I am thinking it's the Legion with XS. They ended up fighting with the various versions of the Fatal Five.

[Chemical King]

Yeah, after rebooting the original Legion cause it had some major continuity problems, they took this new Legion and after just a few years sent them time-traveling again, inter-weaving them with the 20th century so that - oh my god - after just a short time, they were right in the middle of continuity problems... again...!

Kon-El Superboy was in the 30th century for a short while in the latter part of the Abnett/Lanning run, when it had gotten worse already. As you can imagine, confusing the readers with new time-travel conundrums did not really help boosting sales... what followed was another Reboot starring an even worse version of the Legion that Mark Waid thought would be cool.

[Mat001]

Put simply.

1. Kal-El belongs to the Legion that is based on the Pre-Crisis continuity. This verison has been in the JLA, JSA, Action Comics and "Countdown To Final Crisis".

2. Kon-El belongs to the post "Zero Hour" Legion. He first teamed with them in a three parter in the pages of Superboy and both Legion books at the time. He rejoined them just before the Threeboot.

3. Kara Zor-El belongs to the Threeboot Legion. She was in their book for the rest of the Waid/Kitson run and Tony Bedard's fill-in.

[THEDOC]

Man, those "El"'s sure get around.
So with all the rebooting was the Pre-ZH Legion there during Final Night or was that reconned?

[Chemical King]

Man, those "El"'s sure get around.
So with all the rebooting was the Pre-ZH Legion there during Final Night or was that reconned?

Final Night happened AFTER the first reboot, so the Pre-ZH Legion was long gone by then. It was the Reboot Legion - the one some people not so fond of it like to call "Archie Legion" - which was a part of Final Night.

Due to the the following reboot, it is safe to say that Final Night is no longer in continuity.

Well... who is safe to say anything about DCs continuity these days... considering the many question marks left by Morrisons "masterpiece" Final Crisis.... not Final Night... and not to be confused with the upcoming Blackest Night... oh my... :rolleyes:

But with the Reboot Legion being erased out of existence, it is difficult to imagine how Final Night should still be in continuity, as I remember Ferro Lad was an important part of that story - and there was no Ferro Lad in the Threeboot Legion...

[Paul Newell]

Final Night happened AFTER the first reboot, so the Pre-ZH Legion was long gone by then. It was the Reboot Legion - the one some people not so fond of it like to call "Archie Legion" - which was a part of Final Night.

Due to the the following reboot, it is safe to say that Final Night is no longer in continuity.

Well... who is safe to say anything about DCs continuity these days... considering the many question marks left by Morrisons "masterpiece" Final Crisis.... not Final Night... and not to be confused with the upcoming Blackest Night... oh my... :rolleyes:

But with the Reboot Legion being erased out of existence, it is difficult to imagine how Final Night should still be in continuity, as I remember Ferro Lad was an important part of that story - and there was no Ferro Lad in the Threeboot Legion...
It's been acknowledged that all that all three Legions have operated in New Earth's past at some point. Batman & Superman talk about meeting all three in Action Comics, so Final Night still happened.

[jtd]

Why wasn't this book DC's "big event" book of past year, and not Final Crisis? It's soooo much better! And I don't even know much about the LOSH.

[Chemical King]

It's been acknowledged that all that all three Legions have operated in New Earth's past at some point. Batman & Superman talk about meeting all three in Action Comics, so Final Night still happened.

Thanks for the info, Paul. When has this happened in Action Comics? I haven't been reading it outside of the six-part Legion storyline. Currently trying to hunt down some more of the Johns stuff, but German ebay is slow on that part...

[Mat001]

In Action Comics #864. It takes place after "Superman & The Legion Of Super-Heroes" and serves as an epilogue to it and a prologue to "Final Crisis: Legion Of 3 Worlds".

[Samy]

I'm sad to see the only version of Kinetix destroyed

I don't think I saw a body, plus, that sound effect sounded a lot like a boom tube, plus, Kinetix changes powers as often as she changes her wardrobe so I wouldn't be at all surprised if she just mutates into a new incarnation.

[Paul Newell]

Plus with the White Witch saying she's a part of Mordru now...Well it sounds like a set up for a rebirth. I'm betting we get a return to the original version of Kinetix, as we did with "Jarth".

[titanfan]

Yeah the fact that the viewers were actually introduced to Kinetix before she died and her death was intentionally ambiguous, I'd say there are definite plans for her. If she were killed in a random off-panel like one of the Karate Kids, I'd say she was done for. If it doesn't get addressed in #5, it could be years before Geoff gets to that story though...