avoid ra's al ghul year one by devin k. grayson...it sucks

[joe27]

It's at least a couple of years old, but if you haven't read it and are ever considering picking it up DON'T!!!! It's not just bad, it's Connor Hawke: Dragon's Blood bad.

The thing reads like a shitty zombie movie...not good subject matter for a Batman story at all. It doesn't really feel like a Ra's Al Ghul story either. It's not farfetched in the right way or something.

But looking past that, it's a really boring read. I hate Gulacy's art too. His Batman looks like something out of the Batman Returns movie adaption, his Bruce Wayne is ugly and his Leslie Thomkins is too hot.

Another problem I had was that at one point the zombies chase Batman into an All*Mart store. The building looks exactly like a Wal-Mart, so we're supposed to believe that's what it is.
But once inside, the lights are all out and there's nobody there except for a security guard reading porno. Errr, big stores like Wal-Mart have crews working all night stocking the shelves. It would never be dark and empty like that.

[Spiffy]

Did we really have to read past the "by devin k. grayson" part to know that it would suck? Probably not.

[Lester C.]

Did we really have to read past the "by devin k. grayson" part to know that it would suck? Probably not.

Devin did a lot of good work. It was just her very long Nightwing run, which kept getting derailed by editorial mandates, that was bad in parts. Very bad.

[Batman was taken]

Did we really have to read past the "by devin k. grayson" part to know that it would suck? Probably not.

The first 30 issue's of Gotham Knights were good. She's done lots of good stuff.

[joe27]

I haven't read a lot of her work, but I remember her run on Catwoman and the first few issues of Gotham Knights being decent.

I mostly bought the book because I like the character of Ra's Al Ghul, but the fact it had Grayson's name on the cover didn't cause me to hesitate at all.

[nepenthes]

Other Grayson stories have been okay...but on this I definitely have to agree with joe

[DonC]

I'll take "Posters about to be Banned" for $500, Alex.

[T Hedge Coke]

Every comics writer will have one miniseries you'll want to pass on, no matter how much you love their other stuff. It's scripture. Loook at Ellis' Storm. That Spidey mini Kurt Busiek doesn't like to sign (Spider-Man/X-Factor? I've mentally blocked it).

[CYOTI]

Devin did a lot of good work. It was just her very long Nightwing run, which kept getting derailed by editorial mandates, that was bad in parts. Very bad. So it was editorial's fault that had Nighwing raped by Tarantula? Riiiiight.

[El_Travieso_805]

I Agree.. It sucked

[DLH1970]

Now, now. Let's be honest. Her Teen Titans run sucked almost as much as her Nightwing.

[Batman Examiner]

Devin did some good stuff, but I didn't like her later run on Nightwing.

Nightwing was raped by Tarantula and followed her around like a puppy dog for the next few issues letting her control him.

Replace Nightwing with Supergirl and Tarantula with any male character and you tell me people wouldn't call for the heads at DC.

Male rape is ok because it is a man. AS A MALE I HATE THAT MENTALITY!

[Spiffy]

I'll take "Posters about to be Banned" for $500, Alex.
Are you urging banning for the simple act of declaring that you think a creator sucks?

This isn't Stalinist Russia. It's digs at other posters, like '"I'll take "Posters about to be Banned" for $500' that would seem to be worse to me.

[beetlebum]

Are you urging banning for the simple act of declaring that you think a creator sucks?

This isn't Stalinist Russia. It's digs at other posters, like '"I'll take "Posters about to be Banned" for $500' that would seem to be worse to me.

It's not so much the fact that Joe slagged off Devin, rather, it's also the fact that he had the word "fucking" in the thread title before it was edited out.

And if you read Joe's other posts, then you'll find that the comment more or less addressed his general behaviour more than his dig at Devin.

[T Hedge Coke]

Now, now. Let's be honest. Her Teen Titans run sucked almost as much as her Nightwing.

Her run on that volume of Titans was the only one that really worked for me. I think she does marvelous character interaction (and yes, physicality is part of human interaction, as much as it seems to terrify - or become very very gay for - a lot of fanboys).

[CYOTI]

^Note to Devin Grayson don't project your issues onto fictional characters especially if they involve history of sexual or physical abuse as what you did in Nightwing and Titans.

[Lester C.]

So it was editorial's fault that had Nighwing raped by Tarantula? Riiiiight.

I have no way of knowing the answer to that question. It has been confirmed that, a short time after that issue was published, that the editors were very gung ho about Sue Dibny being raped in Identity Crisis so it's possible. By confirm I am referring to a former very disgruntled employee who was working in DC at the time so she was there, but that doesn’t mean she was necessarily telling the truth in her blog.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Devin did some good stuff, but I didn't like her later run on Nightwing.

Nightwing was raped by Tarantula and followed her around like a puppy dog for the next few issues letting her control him.

Replace Nightwing with Supergirl and Tarantula with any male character and you tell me people wouldn't call for the heads at DC.

Male rape is ok because it is a man. AS A MALE I HATE THAT MENTALITY!

Female rape/sexual violence happens and is alluded to a lot in comics - even in older stories not the rips on the tied up females clothes.
You can count the male who has had the reverse on one hand.
CHILL OUT, YOU LOOK RIDICULOUS!

[T Hedge Coke]

^Note to Devin Grayson don't project your issues onto fictional characters especially if they involve history of sexual or physical abuse as what you did in Nightwing and Titans.

Oh, seriously, now!

Projecting issues, is it?

I thought it was called "telling stories" and that a writer's job was to make stuff up and then follow through on it.

Was Terra/Deathstroke all about projecting issues? Sue Dibny and Dr. Light and the whole if Identity Crisis? The Invisible Woman in the Microverse? Isis and Faust? Emma Frost, psychic slave soon to be comatose?

Or does your keen perceptive telepathy only work when you're trying to get into Grayson's head and see what's a legitimate interest in telling a story or exploring a character, versus projecting personal issues? (Or is it only when it involves a guy on the harrowing end?)

[DonC]

Are you urging banning for the simple act of declaring that you think a creator sucks?

This isn't Stalinist Russia. It's digs at other posters, like '"I'll take "Posters about to be Banned" for $500' that would seem to be worse to me.



Did you happen to catch the original title to this thread?

Edit: Beetlebum beat me to it. Swearing may be allowed, but not in thread titles.

[Lorendiac]

The biggest thing that bothered me about "Ra's al Ghul: Year One" was that at the end of it, we were firmly told the following:

Batman now knows the formula for constructing a do-it-yourself Lazarus Pit, and has built one in his Batcave.

This means that ever since then, any time anyone he cared about dropped dead, he had the option of dunking that person in a Lazarus Pit and bringing the poor victim back to life. Ditto for anyone else who has regular access to his cave and thus ought to know the pit is there. For instance: if Tim was upset about Kon-El Superboy dying, then he could have simply dragged the body to the cave and tossed it in the Pit!

But as far as I know: No other story in the last few years has even acknowledged the existence of a Pit in the Batcave; much less shown Batman or anyone else seriously thinking about using that Pit! It's like Devin Grayson's whole story got erased by a Superboy-Prime Retcon Punch as fast as it happened, which leaves the question of why DC's editors bothered to approve and publish it in the first place if its plot was never going to have any impact whatsoever on Batman's ongoing continuity.

[Lester C.]

The biggest thing that bothered me about "Ra's al Ghul: Year One" was that at the end of it, we were firmly told the following:

Batman now knows the formula for constructing a do-it-yourself Lazarus Pit, and has built one in his Batcave.

This means that ever since then, any time anyone he cared about dropped dead, he had the option of dunking that person in a Lazarus Pit and bringing the poor victim back to life. Ditto for anyone else who has regular access to his cave and thus ought to know the pit is there. For instance: if Tim was upset about Kon-El Superboy dying, then he could have simply dragged the body to the cave and tossed it in the Pit!

But as far as I know: No other story in the last few years has even acknowledged the existence of a Pit in the Batcave; much less shown Batman or anyone else seriously thinking about using that Pit! It's like Devin Grayson's whole story got erased by a Superboy-Prime Retcon Punch as fast as it happened, which leaves the question of why DC's editors bothered to approve and publish it in the first place if its plot was never going to have any impact whatsoever on Batman's ongoing continuity.

I pretty sure that story was punblished post retcon punching.

[Batman Examiner]

Female rape/sexual violence happens and is alluded to a lot in comics - even in older stories not the rips on the tied up females clothes.
You can count the male who has had the reverse on one hand.
CHILL OUT, YOU LOOK RIDICULOUS!

Female rape does happen in comics yes...but do the females then spend multiple issues following their rapist around doing their every bidding like a puppy dog?

[T Hedge Coke]

Female rape does happen in comics yes...but do the females then spend multiple issues following their rapist around doing their every bidding like a puppy dog?

Terra, Sin, Ms. Marvel, Diamondback (it was a fakeout, though), and - as rape itself is sort of rare for superhero comics - in terms of "sexual assault" that turns into a romance/partnership/allying? Sue Storm and Namor, any other female superhero who gets kidnapped or violently embraced by some mad villain or misunderstood hero and is chummy with them shortly thereafter. Whatever the hell goes on with Catwoman when she's in her "Now, Batman will notice me!" mode.

I know: Nighting and Silk Spectre team up!

[Batman Examiner]

I don't recall Terra (or any of those others) following their rapists around and being general slaves to them afterward. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[liquid havok]

How do you not see she is projecting? She is clearly trying to deal with her own issues through other characters...which is fine...if they were HER characters. Instead she tries to shove characters into the mold SHE wants. I have nothing against her personally , but her run on Nightwing was god awful, and she clearly doesn't get the character.

[T Hedge Coke]

How do you not see she is projecting?

I don't have the crystal ball you have that lets me decide when an author is projecting or just dealing with something that interests them in a narrative. Unless you think that all writers who have dealt with sex (or sexual violence) in some way are projecting.

[H]er run on Nightwing was god awful, and she clearly doesn't get the character.

Not the way you do, right? How he really is?

I wasn't a huge fan of some of the plot developments, but in terms of personality, that was Dick Grayson to me, sure.

[ScottyQuick]

So it was editorial's fault that had Nighwing raped by Tarantula? Riiiiight.

So a character was sexually assaulted under her run? If you have problems with the WAY Dick's sexual assault was handled, then that's an entirely different matter.

I don't recall Terra (or any of those others) following their rapists around and being general slaves to them afterward. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's funny, Terra infiltrated the Teen Titans for Slade.

[ScottyQuick]

^Note to Devin Grayson don't project your issues onto fictional characters especially if they involve history of sexual or physical abuse as what you did in Nightwing and Titans.

Marv Wolfman?
Kevin Smith?
Joey Cavalieri?
Geoff Johns?

Are all of these men projecting issues onto their comics because survivors of rape appear in their comics?

[Batman Examiner]

So a character was sexually assaulted under her run? If you have problems with the WAY Dick's sexual assault was handled, then that's an entirely different matter.

I don't recall Terra (or any of those others) following their rapists around and being general slaves to them afterward. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's funny, Terra infiltrated the Teen Titans for Slade.

Slade's sex with Terra appeared to be consent from both parties.

What Tarantula did on the rooftop to Dick was not.

[ScottyQuick]

Slade's sex with Terra appeared to be consent from both parties.

What Tarantula did on the rooftop to Dick was not.

Terra was 15, she was incapable of consent.

[K-DoG7p7]

Terra was 15, she was incapable of consent.

Maybe in your country.. but not mine..

WHOOOOO!!(many nations go as low as 13 you know.. )

Remember kids.. the Unites states is a fascist nation when it comes to age of Consent..
I mean come on! half the states have 18!!! and several of them let 16yearold drive cars..

[T Hedge Coke]

Maybe in your country.. but not mine..

WHOOOOO!!(many nations go as low as 13 you know.. )

Remember kids.. the Unites states is a fascist nation when it comes to age of Consent..
I mean come on! half the states have 18!!! and several of them let 16yearold drive cars..

Okeh, she was also certifiably mentally damaged and possibly incapable of consent based on that. She was consenting towards the end of a violent and unhealthy relationship. (Titans... guest starring Patty Hearst as Terra!)

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Female rape does happen in comics yes...but do the females then spend multiple issues following their rapist around doing their every bidding like a puppy dog?

Most times a woman goes under mind control or is doing the bidding there is the suggestion of forced sexual activity - aka the woman doing whatever a man bids.
It is often implied as it is more disturbing when it is a female character, not a strong male character, such as Dick Grayson, who we are rather certain can handle himself and isn't going to be mentally destroyed by the experience.

Jessica Jones in Alias however spent a couple of years as a sex slave, as part of her origin.

Of course, if you're looking for balance, Jack Knight was raped by Mist III, and he was never her slave and was actively disgusted by what she had done to him (even if he loved the son born from it).

And there's also the notable play on all this with Beverly Switzler and Dr. Bong, from the pages of Howard The Duck, where he kidnaps her, makes her a slave/bride - but doesn't rape her... which after a while gets boring for Beverly as a girl has her needs, and ends up begging Bong to bed her.

[liquid havok]

I don't have the crystal ball you have that lets me decide when an author is projecting or just dealing with something that interests them in a narrative. Unless you think that all writers who have dealt with sex (or sexual violence) in some way are projecting.

It's not a crystal ball, it's conjecture like anything else. But when subject matter links to a persons history...well it's not just a coincidence. Whatever, the projecting isn't the major issue...

oh and the sex has NOTHING to do with it.



Not the way you do, right? How he really is?

I wasn't a huge fan of some of the plot developments, but in terms of personality, that was Dick Grayson to me, sure.

You think that's how Nightwing would react in those situations? To me (and I'd wager most others) think it's Devin Grayson writing him that way to put him into the situation she wanted. She wanted to have a hero raped by a woman and explore what that means. Again that's FINE if that's what she want to write....but let's be a little honest to the character. He's led around like a beaten dog through most of that run.

Admittedly I haven't read any of it since it came out (obviously...), so I can't list specifics....what I remember most is rolling my eyes most every issue.

Bottom line - it never really felt like Nightwing. If she wanted to crush the character and ring out all the life in him - congrats she did it. Except that thankfully most of that is forgotten in terms of continuity.

[CYOTI]

Oh, seriously, now!

Projecting issues, is it?

I thought it was called "telling stories" and that a writer's job was to make stuff up and then follow through on it.

She herself has said that what she did in Titans and Nightwing was a means of catharsis/therapy for her, which means she is probably more messed up then some members of Batman's rogues gallery.

[Lester C.]

Terra was 15, she was incapable of consent.

She was 16. Depending on the state she was in, 16 is old enough so is 15 in a couple of states. Not that makes it right mind you, but legal.

Maybe in your country.. but not mine..

WHOOOOO!!(many nations go as low as 13 you know.. )

Remember kids.. the Unites states is a fascist nation when it comes to age of Consent..
I mean come on! half the states have 18!!! and several of them let 16yearold drive cars..

The nations that have it at 13 also have a booming child sex trade which is the reason why the age of consent is so low. Also nearly all 50 states have 16 as tje age of driving a car, 17 as signing a contract, 18 to vote and 21 to drink.

[dancj]

21 to drink????? That's oppression!

[heffison]

The biggest thing that bothered me about "Ra's al Ghul: Year One" was that at the end of it, we were firmly told the following:

Batman now knows the formula for constructing a do-it-yourself Lazarus Pit, and has built one in his Batcave.

This means that ever since then, any time anyone he cared about dropped dead, he had the option of dunking that person in a Lazarus Pit and bringing the poor victim back to life. Ditto for anyone else who has regular access to his cave and thus ought to know the pit is there. For instance: if Tim was upset about Kon-El Superboy dying, then he could have simply dragged the body to the cave and tossed it in the Pit!

But as far as I know: No other story in the last few years has even acknowledged the existence of a Pit in the Batcave; much less shown Batman or anyone else seriously thinking about using that Pit! It's like Devin Grayson's whole story got erased by a Superboy-Prime Retcon Punch as fast as it happened, which leaves the question of why DC's editors bothered to approve and publish it in the first place if its plot was never going to have any impact whatsoever on Batman's ongoing continuity.

I don't know if this applied anywhere else, but I think in the recent Black Adam mini he learned that he could not permanently bring Isis back with the pit because the body was missing a piece. That would cover Conner Kent, who was missing a hand.

If that is true for the Lazarus Pits, it does establish the grisly need for writers to dismember any character that we are expected to believe will remain dead for a while.

But it sure looked like Superman brought a complete, if crispy, corpse out after Bruce's duel with Darkseid, didn't it?

[beetlebum]

Maybe in your country.. but not mine..

WHOOOOO!!(many nations go as low as 13 you know.. )

Remember kids.. the Unites states is a fascist nation when it comes to age of Consent..
I mean come on! half the states have 18!!! and several of them let 16yearold drive cars..

I'm going to be honest here and say that calling something like the age of consent - which is subject to cultural relativism - "fascism" because you don't like the particular age of consent, is nothing short of remarkably dumb.

If we were to go by that logic, than I guess most countries in Europe promote paedophilia, due to how low the age of consent is (nevermind the fact that in most European countries, their age of consent is about the same as most of the states here.)

In the United States, the age of consent is in the jurisdiction of the states. In South Carolina, the age of consent is 14. That's also the case in Texas where 14 year olds can marry, provided they have the agreement of parents and a judge. In Alabama, the age of consent is 16 (which is also the age of consent in Norway). In the state where I live, it's 18.

There are reasons why the age of consent was raised: in the UK, the age of sexual consent for women has been set at 16 since 1885, when campaigners fought to raise it from 13 to prevent child prostitution. Well that, and it's been well documented that teenagers lack the emotional capacity to deal with the ramifications of their actions, and in particular, adolescents are cognitively unprepared to predict longterm outcomes, a skill essential for confronting the challenges of pregnancy.

So please, do your research before you label another country "fascist".




The nations that have it at 13 also have a booming child sex trade which is the reason why the age of consent is so low. Also nearly all 50 states have 16 as tje age of driving a car, 17 as signing a contract, 18 to vote and 21 to drink.

Are you seriously chocking the problem of the child sex trade to the age of consent? That's ridiculous.

Europe does have a problem with children being trafficked in the child sex trade, but that's not due to the cultures of specific countries, it's a result of economic malaise, particularly in the countries that formerly belonged to the Soviet Union.

Economic hardship creates desperation. Women and children are being lured to go to the West with false promises of marriage, jobs or education. When they get there, they arrive alone. Alone in a foreign land without any means of support, violence and coercion ensure they are soon earning money for their new “owners”, and forced to do things to "earn back" the money it cost to transport them there, and the money spent on their living expenses. So it's not due to the age of consent, it's due to a need for money more than anything else.

Anyways, back on topic:

I don't think rape stories are acceptable, no matter what the gender of the person being raped.

I certainly didn't like it when Lermentov had Pechorin kidnap Bela, and destroy her both socially, and culturally. And I didn't like it when Jim Shooter had Carol Danvers brainwashed and fall in "love" with Marcus. And I certainly don't like what happened to Nightwing.

I just don't like the way Devin wroted Dick. If the rape wasn't bad enough, there was the Nightwing/Huntress mini where Helena pretty much uses Dick to try to get into good standing with the Bat Family.

I really didn't like that. Helena should never be portrayed as that desperate, and to me, she's better than that.

[dancj]

I've never got this idea that stories about rape are unacceptable, but stories about murder are fine.