Miracles: from Orthodox to atheist

[Spackling Compound]

I found this blog by surfing this morning and find the discussion to be "YABS" worthy.

The human mind is a frail instrument, easily deluded, and most capable of building brilliant systems of thought and life that have no correspondence to reality whatsoever.

Overindulging this kind of skepticism really does push me toward atheism. What happened to me while sitting in the service is that the skeptical part of my brain was blazing ahead at full steam. I'm just thinking, "Yeah, she doesn't have the power to do that for you, no, that picture doesn't give you a portal to another dimension, no, that story is pure fiction, no, that stuff doesn't have any magic powers," and so on. As a result, I walked out of the service feeling malcontent with Christianity in general (since this sort of thing is endemic in Christian history) and wondering if the entire faith isn't just a bunch of myth and superstition. I just need to not be in that kind of environment.

I don't believe that fiction is good for faith. I've heard, "Oh, sure, the Shroud of Guadalupe is no more than a nice painting, and Juan Diego never existed, but it enhances people's devotion, so there's no need to do anything about it." That seems really dishonest to me. First of all, if your devotion is based on something fake, you're better off un-devoted. Second of all, there are lots of people who are inclined to dispense with the faith entirely when they discover that 90% of what you've been feeding them is a lie. I know I feel that way. When I hear someone acknowledge that this story or that miracle was totally bogus, but say it's fine for us to pretend it happened and build our faith on it, I just want to join the ranks of the godless.

They might be fools, but they're not liars.

Miracles? For the non-believer, what are they? For the believer, what are they? And don't make this about Native American rights or Black Disney characters!


http://metalutheran.blogspot.com/2009/03/benny-hinn-effect.html

[Linkara]

Miracles happen all around us. Watchmen taught me that:

Doctor Manhattan: Thermodynamic miracles... events with odds against so astronomical they're effectively impossible, like oxygen spontaneously becoming gold. I long to observe such a thing. And yet, in each human coupling, a thousand million sperm vie for a single egg. Multiply those odds by countless generations, against the odds of your ancestors being alive; meeting; siring this precise son; that exact daughter... Until your mother loves a man she has every reason to hate, and of that union, of the thousand million children competing for fertilization, it was you, only you, that emerged. To distill so specific a form from that chaos of improbability, like turning air to gold... that is the crowning unlikelihood. The thermodynamic miracle.

Laurie Juspeczyk: But... if me, my birth, if that's a thermodynamic miracle... I mean, you could say that about anybody in the world!

Dr. Manhattan: Yes. Anybody in the world... But the world is so full of people, so crowded with these miracles that they become commonplace and we forget... I forget. We gaze continually at the world and it grows dull in our perceptions. Yet seen from the another's vantage point. As if new, it may still take our breath away. Come... dry your eyes. For you are life, rarer than a quark and unpredictable beyond the dreams of Heisenberg; the clay in which the forces that shape all things leave their fingerprints most clearly. Dry your eyes... and let's go home.

[JeffreyWKramer]

First, how does one define the term "miracle?"

A lot of the things people cite as miracles are just plain myths and superstitions and urban legends which those people happen to hold to be true. Some priest and a bunch of farmers somewhere said it it's true, so it must be true? Great burden of proof there, really. When that's what it takes to convince some people of something, it's no wonder why sometimes juries come back with wrong-headed and bizarre rulings. Some other supposed "miracles" are simplycoincidental or unusual occurrences that people misperceive to have been impossible, or to which they misattribute special meaning. If someone unexpectedly recovers from a usually-fatal illness, that is certainly a fortunate occurrence for that person and those close to him or her, but it isn't a miracle. Not knowing why something happened isn't evidence of the miraculous, either. It's simply evidence of the unknown. I don't know some people like the Indigo Girls, either, but there's no reason to attribute this fact to God, or even to Satan.

Some people frame natural processes which are simply wondrous as "miracles,", which strikes me as ultimately a pretty pessimistic POV, reflecting as it does the false idea that the world we live in is some bad thing. What does it say about a person's view of the world for them to believe that actual reality can't be wonderful and fascinating in its own right without attributing the neat stuff to some mythological entity?

And some of what people consider miracles just makes me shake my head at how gullible and desperate for meaning some people are. A tortilla that has folds and wrinkles and scorch marks vaguely resembling a woman's face isn't a miracle. Sure, one can say it looks sort of like the Virgin Mary, but it looks just as much like Queen Victoria or some drag queen, and either way it doesn't *mean* a damn thing. It simply looks like something. Resemblance doesn't convey any tangible meaning; if you don't believe me, send me an actual $20 dollar bill and I'll send you photocopied likenesses of ten $20 dollar bills and we'll see who gets the better of that deal. I once had a leak in my basement that left stains on the wall that bore an astounding resemblance to Kermit the Frog, but I'd hope nobody would take this as a sign that we should be worshipping the prophet Kermit.

What are miracles? Ultimately, they are nonexistent.

[Tobias March]

The face of Marty Feldman appeared to me on the sewage pipe of my local pub's toilet.

True story.

[Solaris]

Dr. Manhattan is right: miracles and magic happen around us all the time, every day, woven into the fabric of our lives... but we become inured to them, accept them as so commonplace we don't even notice them.

Look, the Mona Lisa is just paint on canvas, right? Yet the image has affected and inspired countless people through the generations.

A miracle is nothing more and nothing less than appreciating something for the beauty that it is... rather than seeing its components and dismissing it as "commonplace" and "nothing special."

At some point, someone decided that a miracle could only be "something that seems impossible, yet exists"---but that describes all life. We stare miracles in the face and never notice them, never think--never even *blink*. Only the unusual or outre catches our attention. We are a world of people eating steak day in and day out, totally bored with the taste and texture---so when the pizza delivery guy shows up, presto! It's a miracle!

Heh.

[4thHorseman]

First, how does one define the term "miracle?"

This pretty much sums up the argument, it all depends in the definition. A priest I had for a teacher defined miracles as something that defies logic and scientific understanding of the real world(or something along those lines). To me, I think the definition Solaris gave is more on point with my beliefs. I would deem a birth of a child more of a miracle than seeing a giant head in the clouds. I think having someone that loves me even if I make dumbass decisions a miracle more than weeping statues. I think being able to support a family on low income and showing them love is more of a miracle than the Virgin Mary on a piece of toast.

[Spackling Compound]

This pretty much sums up the argument, it all depends in the definition. A priest I had for a teacher defined miracles as something that defies logic and scientific understanding of the real world(or something along those lines). To me, I think the definition Solaris gave is more on point with my beliefs. I would deem a birth of a child more of a miracle than seeing a giant head in the clouds. I think having someone that loves me even if I make dumbass decisions a miracle more than weeping statues. I think being able to support a family on low income and showing them love is more of a miracle than the Virgin Mary on a piece of toast.

Then basically you agree with Kramer. There are no miracles.

When someone says, "Look at that child. That's a miracle." I ask, "Why?" Despite Alan Moore's definition, why is that a miracle?
When someone says that it's miraculous that their car gets the mileage it does, I again shake my head.

I think miracles are rare. Babies and tolerant people aren't rare. There will always be someone who loves you despite yourself, even if they themselves are a bit daffy, it happens. Babies happen so much that we throw them in dumpsters. Miracle? Nah.

A miracle, in my pondering, has to be something so rare that it has respect. Babies and people who love other people? Dime a dozen and disposable.

[jesse_custer]

Judging as accurately as possible by common usage, a miracle is anything you really like that you didn't expect.

[Spackling Compound]

Judging as accurately as possible by common usage, a miracle is anything you really like that you didn't expect.

Yeah, the unexpected element is a common thread.

A miracle also has the "I could have died/been jailed/been in trouble but didn't" aspect.

"I was in bed with this guy and my wife came in. It was a miracle we didn't get caught!"

"My kid was drug tested today. It was a miracle that the lab lost his specimen. Now he can powerlift for the state championship!"

[jesse_custer]

Or it was a miracle that Mississippi State won the SEC championship in men's basketball.

[JeffreyWKramer]

When someone says, "Look at that child. That's a miracle." I ask, "Why?" Despite Alan Moore's definition, why is that a miracle?

The dumb thing about that definition is, it applies equally well to everyone, and while some people might like to think of their loved one or hero as a miracle, not many people want to apply the same term to the birth of the likes of Ted Bundy or Saddam Hussein or Dick Cheney, or even Rob Liefeld.

A miracle, in my pondering, has to be something so rare that it has respect.

It's rare for someone to toss a "true" coin (one that isn't rigged someway) 10 times and get 10 heads in a row, but it happens on very rare occasions. What sort of miracle is that? Rarity does not a miracle make. Respect is a reaction to an event, not a quality of an event, so it doesn't make for a very good defining characteristic.

[Spackling Compound]

It's rare for someone to toss a "true" coin (one that isn't rigged someway) 10 times and get 10 heads in a row, but it happens on very rare occasions. What sort of miracle is that? Rarity does not a miracle make. Respect is a reaction to an event, not a quality of an event, so it doesn't make for a very good defining characteristic.

Yeah, but miracles, as an event, should be rare. Unless one ascribes to the idea that we "live in an age of miracles" and the ordinary is miraculous (something to behold). So, this morning I miraculously had an alarm that went off, in a miraculously heated apartment, took a shower with water that miraculously came through a spout, miraculously had hot coffee within minutes and then miraculously had the daily news at my doorstep.

[Spackling Compound]

Or it was a miracle that Mississippi State won the SEC championship in men's basketball.

Ow. Ow. Ow.

OW!

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yeah, but miracles, as an event, should be rare. Unless one ascribes to the idea that we "live in an age of miracles" and the ordinary is miraculous (something to behold). So, this morning I miraculously had an alarm that went off, in a miraculously heated apartment, took a shower with water that miraculously came through a spout, miraculously had hot coffee within minutes and then miraculously had the daily news at my doorstep.

To the extent "miracle" is a word that has an actual meaning (which has nothing to do with whether that to which it refers actually exists, which is in fact not the case for miracles), I agree with you that it would probably refer to something rare. That would make rarity a necessary condition for the miraculous, though clearly it's not a sufficient one.

[Spackling Compound]

To the extent "miracle" is a word that has an actual meaning (which has nothing to do with whether that to which it refers actually exists, which is in fact not the case for miracles), I agree with you that it would probably refer to something rare. That would make rarity a necessary condition for the miraculous, though clearly it's not a sufficient one.

You're saying that just because it's rare, doesn't make something a miracle? As in the example of the coin. Good point.

Take the case of an albino bull or a two headed turtle. One man's miracle is another man's freak/fluke. Some cultures (and individuals) see these as either signs of God's promise or the Great Spirit is awake or a new age. Others see this as a freak of nature.

Jesse said that if something is a "good", then it's a miracle. If something is "bad", I suppose it can be a "curse" or a "fluke".

[jesse_custer]

Jesse said that if something is a "good", then it's a miracle. If something is "bad", I suppose it can be a "curse" or a "fluke".

Which conveniently plays into the overblown Ole Miss/Mississippi State rivalry. (And other sports fans disputes, of course.)

[JeffreyWKramer]

Jesse said that if something is a "good", then it's a miracle. If something is "bad", I suppose it can be a "curse" or a "fluke".

"Bad" and "good" are subjective reactions to an event, not a quality of the event.

Some people would consider the birth of George W. Bush to fall within the realm of the miraculous, because they share his idea of what is good. Most more reasonable people consider him evidence that someone pissed in the gene pool, and very much neither a good thing nor miraculous.

Some people regard Obama's election as miraculous, because they consider it a very good thing for them, or for a certain race, or for the nation, or whatever. Some others clearly don't agree that his election was either a good thing or miraculous, and some consider it a good thing but not the least bit a miracle.

You're correct that people tend to use the descriptor "miraculous" in regard to events that are rare or unusual and which they consider "good", but that is itself a good reason why one should at very least be skeptical that the word "miracle" refers to anything that exists save as a fictional concept.

[Spackling Compound]

"Bad" and "good" are subjective reactions to an event, not a quality of the event.

Some people would consider the birth of George W. Bush to fall within the realm of the miraculous, because they share his idea of what is good. Most more reasonable people consider him evidence that someone pissed in the gene pool, and very much neither a good thing nor miraculous.

Some people regard Obama's election as miraculous, because they consider it a very good thing for them, or for a certain race, or for the nation, or whatever. Some others clearly don't agree that his election was either a good thing or miraculous, and some consider it a good thing but not the least bit a miracle.

You're correct that people tend to use the descriptor "miraculous" in regard to events that are rare or unusual and which they consider "good", but that is itself a good reason why one should at very least be skeptical that the word "miracle" refers to anything that exists save as a fictional concept.

A rarity isn't always a miracle but a miracle is always a rarity.

The unexplained isn't alway miraculous, but a miracle is a miracle until it is explained.

The unexpected isn't always a miracle, but a miracle usually is unexpected (unless you follow that some people "ask" or "pray" for a miracle and get it).

[Mr.EZ]

I always got a chuckle out of the Miracle of Fatima. For those unfamiliar, 3 children in Portugal were to be in communications with Mary, the mother of Christ. Mary gave the kids 3 secrets to be revealed to the world. The first being a vision of hell, the second being how to save your soul from hell, and then the third was classified by the Vatican for several decades.

Now, the Vatican was all about letting Catholics know about the first 2 secrets, and the Miracle of the Sun. The sun itself flew across the sky at high speed, changing colors and whilring about in front of 70,000 witnesses. Having gone to Catholic School my whole life, I was taught this going all the way back to 1st grade, but not knowing the 3rd secret always bugged me, and I couldn't wait for the day it would be revealed.

Fast forward to now. The 3rd secret was revealed a few years back, and was ommediately contested by the Vatican, who had stood behind the first 2 secrets and the Miracle of the Sun. Apparently, the 3rd secret basically is this :

We should all rise up against the Pope, all priests, bishops, cardinals & nuns, and kill them.

Gee, wonder why the Vatican would want to keep that one quiet. What, are they afraid they'll die and go to Heaven? Makes you wonder.

[Spackling Compound]

I always got a chuckle out of the Miracle of Fatima. For those unfamiliar, 3 children in Portugal were to be in communications with Mary, the mother of Christ. Mary gave the kids 3 secrets to be revealed to the world. The first being a vision of hell, the second being how to save your soul from hell, and then the third was classified by the Vatican for several decades.

Now, the Vatican was all about letting Catholics know about the first 2 secrets, and the Miracle of the Sun. The sun itself flew across the sky at high speed, changing colors and whilring about in front of 70,000 witnesses. Having gone to Catholic School my whole life, I was taught this going all the way back to 1st grade, but not knowing the 3rd secret always bugged me, and I couldn't wait for the day it would be revealed.

Fast forward to now. The 3rd secret was revealed a few years back, and was ommediately contested by the Vatican, who had stood behind the first 2 secrets and the Miracle of the Sun. Apparently, the 3rd secret basically is this :

We should all rise up against the Pope, all priests, bishops, cardinals & nuns, and kill them.

Gee, wonder why the Vatican would want to keep that one quiet. What, are they afraid they'll die and go to Heaven? Makes you wonder.
http://www.medjugorjeusa.org/fatimasecret.htm
"After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendor that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: 'Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: 'something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White 'we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God."
This is the actual translation. It didn't ask people to rise up against the bishops, etc. The controversy was in who was it talking about? Pope John Paul II? Oscar Romero? Or some pope in the future?

[Mr.EZ]

This is the actual translation. It didn't ask people to rise up against the bishops, etc. The controversy was in who was it talking about? Pope John Paul II? Oscar Romero? Or some pope in the future?

Most discussions I've seen about the subject agree that the killing of the clergy is what it's all about. Creating martyrs, much like Romero.

[Spackling Compound]

Most discussions I've seen about the subject agree that the killing of the clergy is what it's all about. Creating martyrs, much like Romero.

Well, it is about killing clergy, and nuns and lay people as well.

I didn't see it as an uprising for Catholics to kill Catholics.

[Mr.EZ]

Well, it is about killing clergy, and nuns and lay people as well.

I didn't see it as an uprising for Catholics to kill Catholics.

Well, the Vatican did. Why else would they classify it until 2000 and place a gag order on the last surviving child, Lúcia Santos?

[Spackling Compound]

Well, the Vatican did. Why else would they classify it until 2000 and place a gag order on the last surviving child, Lúcia Santos?

I don't know that. I just never heard that the message said:
We should all rise up against the Pope, all priests, bishops, cardinals & nuns, and kill them.

It makes for fun conversation that God or Mary or whatever hates the clergy and is on the side of the people, even to incite violence. I think the secret was made secret because they were waiting for something to make it look like it was fulfilled.

[Linkara]

The dumb thing about that definition is, it applies equally well to everyone, and while some people might like to think of their loved one or hero as a miracle, not many people want to apply the same term to the birth of the likes of Ted Bundy or Saddam Hussein or Dick Cheney, or even Rob Liefeld.


What an absolutely cynical and depressing viewpoint.

It's not just that they're born, it's that of all the possibilities of a person to come about because of every event that occurred in their ancestry, building and building and building upon one another, that particular person emerged. And all you can do is focus on the bad, and hell, you put Rob Liefeld into the likes of a murderer, a mass murderer, and a politician. What an absolutely offputting worldview.

[Solaris]

Yeah, but miracles, as an event, should be rare. Unless one ascribes to the idea that we "live in an age of miracles" and the ordinary is miraculous (something to behold). So, this morning I miraculously had an alarm that went off, in a miraculously heated apartment, took a shower with water that miraculously came through a spout, miraculously had hot coffee within minutes and then miraculously had the daily news at my doorstep.

Well, considering the alternative that you could be dead instead and have none of those things...

[JeffreyWKramer]

What an absolutely cynical and depressing viewpoint.

It's not just that they're born, it's that of all the possibilities of a person to come about because of every event that occurred in their ancestry, building and building and building upon one another, that particular person emerged. And all you can do is focus on the bad, and hell, you put Rob Liefeld into the likes of a murderer, a mass murderer, and a politician. What an absolutely offputting worldview.

Nice try, but no.

See, I don't just focus on the bad. I'm simply pointing out that the people that make the "isn't miraculous that this great person came to be" argument ignore the fact that everything they use to justify that argument can be applied equally to pretty much everyone, including lots of less-than-great people. They start with the "good people are miraculous" conclusion and develop a logically fallacious argument in support of that conclusion. I'm not arguing that things are bad because there are bad people. I'm just pointing out that the argument some others make is completely illogical.

As it happens, my general reply to the fact that there are bad people is that yes, it's true, but that most people aren't truly bad people, and there are so many more people that do some really good things that they serve to outweigh the bad, which is pretty neat.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Well, considering the alternative that you could be dead instead and have none of those things...

Good/fortunate/beneficial circumstances and outcomes are not the same thing as miracles.

[Linkara]

Nice try, but no.

See, I don't just focus on the bad. I'm simply pointing out that the people that make the "isn't miraculous that this great person came to be" argument ignore the fact that everything they use to justify that argument can be applied equally to pretty much everyone, including lots of less-than-great people. They start with the "good people are miraculous" conclusion and develop a logically fallacious argument in support of that conclusion. I'm not arguing that things are bad because there are bad people. I'm just pointing out that the argument some others make is completely illogical.

As it happens, my general reply to the fact that there are bad people is that yes, it's true, but that most people aren't truly bad people, and there are so many more people that do some really good things that they serve to outweigh the bad, which is pretty neat.

Hrmph. Except I freely admit that yes, bad people come about, too. But I see them as exceptions, and even then, the fact that any particular individual emerges, even someone as evil as Saddam, is a miracle unto itself.

Alrighty, though, let's assume that you're correct and the fact that evil people rising out of the equation makes the argument fallacious, so let's turn it around a bit.

Stars.

Light is made up of particles, and each one of those tiny particles travels a countless distant across the void of space, where anything could block it or prevent it from reaching its journey, but eventually those particles that do make it arrive at MY eye or the eye of any particular person. What are the odds of such an occurrence?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Hrmph. Except I freely admit that yes, bad people come about, too. But I see them as exceptions, and even then, the fact that any particular individual emerges, even someone as evil as Saddam, is a miracle unto itself.

Alrighty, though, let's assume that you're correct and the fact that evil people rising out of the equation makes the argument fallacious, so let's turn it around a bit.

Stars.

Light is made up of particles, and each one of those tiny particles travels a countless distant across the void of space, where anything could block it or prevent it from reaching its journey, but eventually those particles that do make it arrive at MY eye or the eye of any particular person. What are the odds of such an occurrence?

The odds of such an occurrence are irrelevant. Long odds do not mean something is miraculous, and to suggest otherwise demonstrates an astounding lack of comprehension of probability.

The odds of a particular particle carrying a particular bit of information hitting a particular person are pretty low, but the odds of some particle among all those particles hitting the eye of some person are very high. In fact, this happens constantly.

The odds of someone being struck to death by a meteor are also quite small, but it has in fact happened at least twice in recorded history. These incidents aren't any indication of a miracle (or a curse, or whatever). Unfortunately the individuals involved simply happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Linkara]

Except odds are essentially what a miracle boils down to. By every definition I've ever seen, it's about something that by all accounts should not happen yet it does, be it because science says it's impossible (thus the odds being zero) or because the odds are so high as to make it nearly impossible.

The odds of someone being struck to death by a meteor are also quite small, but it has in fact happened at least twice in recorded history. These incidents aren't any indication of a miracle (or a curse, or whatever). Unfortunately the individuals involved simply happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

In which case we can classify them as two categories: when something good happens that's low in probability, it's a miracle. When it's something bad, it's a tragedy.

And you can call it subjective - fine. Whatever. I'm just saying you don't have to rain on other people's parades because YOU don't see it as a miracle. I for one think the fact that existence is beautiful and full of miracles, but you have a different opinion on the matter. Whatever.

[Spackling Compound]

Nice try, but no.

See, I don't just focus on the bad. I'm simply pointing out that the people that make the "isn't miraculous that this great person came to be" argument ignore the fact that everything they use to justify that argument can be applied equally to pretty much everyone, including lots of less-than-great people. They start with the "good people are miraculous" conclusion and develop a logically fallacious argument in support of that conclusion. I'm not arguing that things are bad because there are bad people. I'm just pointing out that the argument some others make is completely illogical.

As it happens, my general reply to the fact that there are bad people is that yes, it's true, but that most people aren't truly bad people, and there are so many more people that do some really good things that they serve to outweigh the bad, which is pretty neat.


In Christian circles, it always comes off as problematic when someone says, "It was a miracle that I survived that wreck" when they are talking to another person, a believer, who lost a son in the same wreck.

The building block on builidng block is a sweet thing to say to get into a superheroine's tights but not a reason to believe in miracles.

[Spackling Compound]

And you can call it subjective - fine. Whatever. I'm just saying you don't have to rain on other people's parades because YOU don't see it as a miracle. I for one think the fact that existence is beautiful and full of miracles, but you have a different opinion on the matter. Whatever.

What you said was that "being in and of itself is a miracle". That's the argument. The idea that a life can be full of miracles is debatable but you said that the coming into being is miraculous.

The birth of a cow can be a miracle by that logic. And that cow becomes your ribeye. That's either a miracle or a tragedy.

A child is born. Miracle. And then dropped in a dumpster. Tragedy.

Unless you say one can choose what is a miracle or not. Which I think you're saying. If so, then someone can say it's a miracle that I have typed something which will be read by someone else online. And then someone can explain how such information is transmitted.
They're not raining on a parade.
They're telling me there's no parade.
It's a traffic jam.
Happens all the time.

[Gorthaur]

What an absolutely cynical and depressing viewpoint.

It's not just that they're born, it's that of all the possibilities of a person to come about because of every event that occurred in their ancestry, building and building and building upon one another, that particular person emerged.It's not just every particular person; the same could be said of any and every particular animal, plant, thing or event.

Here's the thing: words have definitions. They are tools of communication that correspond to some particular thing or group of things and exclude other things, allowing us to communicate information about some specific aspect of the world. You've just proved Jeffrey's point by defining the word "miracle" so broadly that there is nothing it doesn't mean, thereby rendering the concept redundant and meaningless.

[Paul McEnery]

When someone says, "Look at that child. That's a miracle." I ask, "Why?" .

I'm a big fan of the miracle of menstruation, myself.

[Spackling Compound]

I'm a big fan of the miracle of menstruation, myself.

I always thought for some reason that was the subject of Spirit's "Nature's Way".

[Ghost]

You know, I once dropped my keys in a place where I could not reach them, only to have them seemingly teleport to completely different location for me to find a few minutes later; a location so random one would need precognition to know in advance that I would be there to find them.

I've always wondered if I should consider that a miracle. If so, it seems me a rather strange one.

[Paul McEnery]

You know, I once dropped my keys in a place where I could not reach them, only to have them seemingly teleport to completely different location for me to find a few minutes later; a location so random one would need precognition to know in advance that I would be there to find them.

I've always wondered if I should consider that a miracle. If so, it seems me a rather strange one.

Something of a typical one, I'd say. Goes along with Schrodingers twenty spot. You know you've got twenty bucks in your wallet. You look in your wallet. No money. Bugger. Then later in the day, you look in your wallet, and it's back again.

[thehod]

I'm a cynical old bugger at heart really, but I'm with Dr Manhatten and Alan Moore on this. For me, and from a personal and individualistic point of view, when I look down at my sleeping boy, he is still a miracle of sorts to me.

Whether he is to anyone else is all rather immaterial, he is to me.

Now I know that none of this stands up to any sort of logical, scientific or theological scrutiny, but its still good enough for me.

[section 8]

I found this blog by surfing this morning and find the discussion to be "YABS" worthy.



Miracles? For the non-believer, what are they? For the believer, what are they? And don't make this about Native American rights or Black Disney characters!



That WOULD be a Miracle!

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'm a cynical old bugger at heart really, but I'm with Dr Manhatten and Alan Moore on this. For me, and from a personal and individualistic point of view, when I look down at my sleeping boy, he is still a miracle of sorts to me.

Whether he is to anyone else is all rather immaterial, he is to me.

Now I know that none of this stands up to any sort of logical, scientific or theological scrutiny, but its still good enough for me.

See, to me, that's confusing things like "beautiful" and "wonderful" with "miracle."

I can enjoy a nice sunset as much as anyone. When I'm standing atop a mountain, it's a breathtaking, incredibly meaningful experience for me. So was holding my son for the first time. I've been known to sit for a couple hours watching a spider weave a web or watching a preying mantis just walk along some branches; my wife finds this alternatingly amusing and annoying. Those things aren't miracles, though. They are extremely moving or fascinating events, and life isn't lacking for those if one simply looks for them.

This idea that reality isn't wonderful enough on its own terms - that some people have to believe something has a greater purpose or connection to some higher power or whatever - rather saddens me, while the idea that I'm raining on someone's parade by not regarding meisosis and mitosis as miracles is something I consider simply silly. If a person can't appreciate something without believing it a miracle, they need to get more in touch with reality.

[section 8]

I think Pulp Fiction Had a point

"Whether or not what we experienced was an According to Hoyle miracle is insignificant. What is significant is that I felt the touch of God. God got involved."

[Mermaid]

The face of Marty Feldman appeared to me on the sewage pipe of my local pub's toilet.

True story.


It had nothing to do with you being totally blind at the time though did it?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Except odds are essentially what a miracle boils down to. By every definition I've ever seen, it's about something that by all accounts should not happen yet it does, be it because science says it's impossible (thus the odds being zero) or because the odds are so high as to make it nearly impossible.
And your example is nothing of the sort.

Yes, the chance of a given photon interacting with a given person's eye is very low, but that is essentially meaningful, because billions of photons interact with billions of eyes every moment. The chance of me breathing in any specific oxygen molecule chosen randomly from among all the oxygen on earth is also very low, but that doesn't mean a thing,

In which case we can classify them as two categories: when something good happens that's low in probability, it's a miracle. When it's something bad, it's a tragedy.
Completely subjective.

And you can call it subjective - fine. Whatever. I'm just saying you don't have to rain on other people's parades because YOU don't see it as a miracle. I for one think the fact that existence is beautiful and full of miracles, but you have a different opinion on the matter. Whatever.

Logic and reality framed as raining on one's parade... very bizarre. I'm not saying don't appreciate whatever you appreciate, I'm simply pointing out that it's not a miracle. Discussions like this are bizarre on the order of someone having to think they're eating unicorn meat in order to enjoy a perfectly grilled steak.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I think Pulp Fiction Had a point

"Whether or not what we experienced was an According to Hoyle miracle is insignificant. What is significant is that I felt the touch of God. God got involved."

I meet several times a week with people who believe they've been touched by God. Some even report that God does bad touch, not good touch. These experiences are very significant to them.

[Ghost]

Something of a typical one, I'd say. Goes along with Schrodingers twenty spot. You know you've got twenty bucks in your wallet. You look in your wallet. No money. Bugger. Then later in the day, you look in your wallet, and it's back again.

Interesting. And did you consider this a supernatural phenomenon?

[Spackling Compound]

Interesting. And did you consider this a supernatural phenomenon?

I'm not familiar with Schroedinger's wallet. I have had the experience of his refrigerator. I know there's something I want in there. But when I open it, it's not there. After opening and closing it several times, I am aware that I wanted the end of an old piece of toast with mustard and a slice of three day old pizza.

[Linkara]

Logic and reality framed as raining on one's parade... very bizarre. I'm not saying don't appreciate whatever you appreciate, I'm simply pointing out that it's not a miracle. Discussions like this are bizarre on the order of someone having to think they're eating unicorn meat in order to enjoy a perfectly grilled steak.
I never said they HAD to be considered miracles in order to enjoy them. Just because it's not a miracle for you doesn't mean it isn't a miracle for me. Fine, it's subjective, but calling it subjective doesn't make it any less of a miracle for me.

But then again, according to the Random House dictionary, a miracle can also be "A marvel, a wonder." But then again, I know that's subjective, too, but whatever. I'm sick of being mad at you for what you believe when it really shouldn't affect what I believe.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I never said they HAD to be considered miracles in order to enjoy them. Just because it's not a miracle for you doesn't mean it isn't a miracle for me. Fine, it's subjective, but calling it subjective doesn't make it any less of a miracle for me.
So, where does "raining on your parade" come in?

Also, as Gorthaur correctly pointed out several posts ago, saying "it doesn't matter if someone else thinks it's a miracle for it to be a miracle to me" pretty much renders the concept irrelevant. Or maybe psychotic. Someone thinking a dog turd is a bratwurst doesn't make it so, and I certainly wouldn't want to attend a BBQ at their place.

But then again, according to the Random House dictionary, a miracle can also be "A marvel, a wonder."

That's generally considered a more a figurative use of the word than a definitional one, and is at best tangentially connected to the topic Spack introduced in starting the thread.

But then again, I know that's subjective, too, but whatever. I'm sick of being mad at you for what you believe when it really shouldn't affect what I believe.
So, don't be mad. Sounds like you definitely have some issues there.

[Spackling Compound]

To call "miraculous" a baby, a sunset, a walk along a babbling brook or the caress of your lover is not a bad thing but it does overuse a term that is meant for particular use.

Such as "amazing". I think "amazing" is a limited word. It should refer to acrobats, rescues and Spider-Man. Not to hairdressers, kindly old teachers and bath beads but the word is used over and over and over. Kind of a meme.

Also to call an experience a "miracle" is like subjectively using a term that makes other more appropriate experiences less special.
For example, to get "high" one normally doses drugs or drinks certain amounts of liquor/beer. They then get high.
Some people say they don't get high on drugs. They get high on sock-puppetry or libraries or Jesus or soduku. Well, that's not the same high. It's an insult to high and if you expect wandering through a library to allow you the same sensation a hit of sensi will? You're mistaken.

Again, those terms "amazing", "high" and others can and will be used. But for some, they can be misleaded and take the sting out of what they are meant for.

[thehod]

See, to me, that's confusing things like "beautiful" and "wonderful" with "miracle."

You're probably right. When I call my son a miracle, it has no connection to a higher power whatsoever. If anything the higher power can fuck off because if that higher power had anything to do with Charlie's heart condition I'd rip its fucking throat out.

I'm not hypocritical enough to praise a higher power for my son's existance whilst ignoring the parameters of that existance.

Maybe the term miracle has taken on a slightly more wider meaning than the purely theological one. The term hero and genius get thrown around a little too easily, and, again, maybe miracle does too.

If so, its a charge that I'm readily willing to admit to.

[berk]

Haven't read the entire thread, so ignore this if it's already been pointed out, but I think the theological definition of miracle was that it meant something that fell outside the laws of nature - like Joshua making the sun stop so he could destroy Jericho, or Jesus walking on the water, that kind of thing.

In that sense of the word, I don't believe in miracles, since I think that everything that happens in the universe of which we're a part is obviously something that can take place in that universe and therefore does not fall outside whatever principles, discovered or undiscovered by us, govern the phenomena of that universe. i.e. Everything that happens is automatically, by definition, natural - even if we can't explain it yet.

[Paul McEnery]

Interesting. And did you consider this a supernatural phenomenon?

What berk said.

[Solaris]

I believe in divine miracles---but my definition of "divine" is so vastly different, in this regard, from the typical Christian viewpoint that it puts my use of "miracle" into a different category. If you see the divine as permeating everything in order to allow it to exist, then the functioning of everything is a miracle on some level. So for me, using the word tends to relate to something being so beautiful (and often, me noticing it unexpectedly), so that it gives me a "lifted" feeling on the inside, and/or takes my breath away... is usually when the word "miracle" comes out. Either that, or a really good outcome---like, say, someone recovering from what their family was told were fatal injuries.

Do I think a God consciously stepped in and changed an outcome? Usually, I see it as a combination of factors that created the outcome. Gods rarely "step in" in ways we recognize. Do I have a problem being thankful to a God or Gods, even if I'm not sure if they stepped in directly or not? Nope. I may just not have noticed their input in a way I would recognize. Does it matter? Not to me. I try to be thankful for both the good things in my life, and the challenges (because the latter help me grow).

When I see the beauty, and the magic, in life around me, it promotes a feeling of gratitude and happiness, and creates the desire to both share what I see, and to work harder on making that beauty more of a presence in the world. It helps me be a better person.

It doesn't bother me that some don't believe in miracles at all---they see the subject differently, is all, and their criteria are different than mine. Bottom line for me is, if it makes your life better, and helps you be a better person, to care more about yourself, other people, and our universe...go for it. :biggrin:

[Spackling Compound]

I believe in divine miracles---but my definition of "divine" is so vastly different, in this regard, from the typical Christian viewpoint that it puts my use of "miracle" into a different category. If you see the divine as permeating everything in order to allow it to exist, then the functioning of everything is a miracle on some level. So for me, using the word tends to relate to something being so beautiful (and often, me noticing it unexpectedly), so that it gives me a "lifted" feeling on the inside, and/or takes my breath away... is usually when the word "miracle" comes out. Either that, or a really good outcome---like, say, someone recovering from what their family was told were fatal injuries.

Do I think a God consciously stepped in and changed an outcome? Usually, I see it as a combination of factors that created the outcome. Gods rarely "step in" in ways we recognize. Do I have a problem being thankful to a God or Gods, even if I'm not sure if they stepped in directly or not? Nope. I may just not have noticed their input in a way I would recognize. Does it matter? Not to me. I try to be thankful for both the good things in my life, and the challenges (because the latter help me grow).

When I see the beauty, and the magic, in life around me, it promotes a feeling of gratitude and happiness, and creates the desire to both share what I see, and to work harder on making that beauty more of a presence in the world. It helps me be a better person.

It doesn't bother me that some don't believe in miracles at all---they see the subject differently, is all, and their criteria are different than mine. Bottom line for me is, if it makes your life better, and helps you be a better person, to care more about yourself, other people, and our universe...go for it. :biggrin:


Again, those aren't the type things I'm speaking of. When you create your own reality with your own rules, no harm done. Entirely subjective. So if the world is made of cotton candy and fairies bring light and daisies each day, and it keeps you from doing stupid things, fine.
When you make your own rules, with your own spirituality and define your own behavior for what you want to do, its again fine as long as you're not doing stupid things.

But when someone claims miracles as a starting block for an organized belief system, that's the issue. Especially when a miracle is a sign of favor or belovedness. If you join the Cult of St. Cuthbert and expect to be able to fly or bring back your dead wife, and it doesn't happen, it can screw you up. If you make up St. Cuthbert and say that you can fly and your dead wife is alive, then that's ok, as long as you're not doing stupid things...like creating a system where people are being duped and pawned.