Reason For Separation of DC & Vertigo?

[SMARTASS8]

Does anyone know the real reason that DC is unable to use their characters if Vertigo is currently featuring them? Except for some reason, The Phantom Stranger, all DC characters can not appear in Vertigo and DC at the same time. It can't just be due to the Vertigo line's adult nature since the gore(any death scene involivng Superboy-Prime and Black Adam), sexuality(check out the first issue of Titans), and subject matter(Identity Crisis?) in the DCU is just as bad minus a few 4-letter words(especially since Ennis left). Does Karen Berger have that much control(or some compromising pictures of Didio or Levitz:biggrin: )? It kills me that accomplished writers such as Busiek(couldn't use Madame Xanadu in Trinity) and JMS(can't use Swamp Thing in The Brave & The Bold) had to alter their plans due to this ridiculous rule. If the Vertigo versions sold that much better than their DC counterparts, I could almost understand, but that's simply not the case. In fact, the run on Swamp Thing that probably had the most popularity, acclaim, maturity, and nudity, was Alan Moore's that was published by DC Comics. Hell, look at 1987's The Spectre #9 or any Vigilante book from #45 on if you want to see mature storytelling firmly set in the DCU. If they want, they can keep Constantine, but I feel DC should be able to use whoever they want.

[CYOTI]

The divisions apparently are more of a result of personnel differences and infighting within the company itself.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Taking a guess I'd say that Vertigo has made, and still makes, more money out of Swamp Thing than the DCU is could (in the companies opinion), and so they maintain control over the character.
Now, they probably make most of that money just reprinting the Alan Moore run, but they could be worried that having him become Superman's pal could affect the sales on the character.

That's just prue speculation though.

[dancj]

I'm not sure there is such a hard and fast rule. We saw Dream in Morrison's run on JLA, Wesley Dodds in Starman, and Zattana flits back and forth a bit.

[Sean Walsh]

I'm not sure there is such a hard and fast rule. We saw Dream in Morrison's run on JLA, Wesley Dodds in Starman, and Zattana flits back and forth a bit.

Morrison went right to Gaiman with that request to use Dream in JLA, and Gaiman said yes.

Wesley Dodds was a JSAer, plus Mystery Theatre took place in the past anyway, so I think DC had a very strong claim to use him whenever; and sure enough, they killed Wesley early in the JSA revival. But they've done Mystery Theatre comics since then, so technically no harm.

I think Morrison's connection to Animal Man got him back from Vertigo (first at the end of his JLA run, then during 52 - and now he's got a new miniseries by Gerry Conway coming up that is DCU).

Swamp Thing is pretty much all Vertigo nowadays, but Jimenez managed to draw a very brief cameo for him in INFINITE CRISIS (when all the magic folk are summoning the Spectre at Stonehedge, we see his very identifiable arm as everyone is holding hands in a circle)

Plus Deadman was relegated to Vertigo for a while with that Bruce Jones series (even though it wasn't the same character)........but upon it's failure, I guess DCU was able to get him back.

[Darrell D.]

Is comic fandom screaming for Swamp Thing to cross over with the JLA, or appear in a 5 part Superman story? I mean, would that pump sales? What would be the point?

[Sean Walsh]

Is comic fandom screaming for Swamp Thing to cross over with the JLA, or appear in a 5 part Superman story? I mean, would that pump sales? What would be the point?

I think what makes people want to see him in the DCU again (for something....anything...) is that there's an editorial mandate that prevents it.

I agree with you: once he did show up in the DCU........what would it be? Guest star in Batman? Fighting Superman? Miniseries? At that point fandom just shrug their shoulders :confused: and maybe realize they had no idea all along...

[Seraku]

only real reason I can see for this, is because Lucifer "wins" at the end of his series and they probably feel it's a bad message to include in the DCU.

is that there's an editorial mandate that prevents it.indeed. people always want what they can't have


once he did show up in the DCU........what would it be?um, Moore's entire run was firmly in the DCU (off the top of my head: Batman, Adam Strange, Etrigan, The Spectre, the JLA all appeared) and it stll worked while doing it's own thing.

[Firebringer27]

Actually, I think Vertigo as whole works better when they are completely separated from DCU.

If there are constant crossover of characters, we'd see Minutemen (100 Bullets) v.s. Batman, Lucifer in Superman comics, etc. If you thought public outcry for Dan Didio's head was bad now... wait 'til he drops the ball on those...

Another argument for keeping Swampthing over at Vertigo comics is that it is the fertile grounds in which Vertigo sprang from. Sandman, Hellblazer, and Lucifer all played with the tools and plotpoints found in Swamp Thing.

And this is coming from an ex-hardcore DC fan.

It is also true that Vertigo has dropped the ball with Swamp Thing since Alan Moore left (granted, he left while the Swamp Thing franchise was firmly based in DC, but the franchise never recovered. Just look at Swamp Thing's recent series at Vertigo... embarassing.) yet, when you think about it... Swamp Thing was one of the few failures in Vertigo line as was Loveless. But I'd be damned if you can name more than 5 unreadable series out of Vertigo since its formation.

But Vertigo, for all of its flaws, has a vastly better records in the past two decades than any comic line. Sales might not reflect upon it, but when you buy Vertigo books... you know their quality is nearly always topnotch.

Therefore, for all of the two pennies I've got in my pockets (and bank account...), I will be willing to gamble that Karen Berger has the right idea here.

[Scavenger]

Morrison went right to Gaiman with that request to use Dream in JLA, and Gaiman said yes.


That was a courtesy, not a requirement, based on the rumored/real reaction Gaiman had to Death showing up in Captain Atom.

The examples you site are from a different era though (remember, Superman, Batman, and J'onn all showed up in the finale of Sandman, too).

My understanding is that these days it's because of editorial fiefdoms. Whether it's Berger vs Levitz or Didio or DC corporate wanting a firm division, I don't know.


Firebringer:
SwampThing ran for like 100 issues after Moore Left.
Vertigo/DC crossovers wouldn't entail something like 100 Bullets which I think is creator owned, or even Lucifer, which pretty much left behind the DC Universe (and even the "Vertigo Universe" where Hellblazer and Swamp Thing is except for a few touchstones here and there.

But Swamp Thing if appropriate. Hell, Constantine has allowed Batman to steal his back story with Zatanna, and that's not right!

[DonC]

As far as I know, there is no editorial mandate forbidding "crossovers." If a writer came up with a really good story that featured Swamp Thing joining the Teen Titans, I'm sure editorial would allow it. It's just that it has to be a really good story. Otherwise it's more of a brand marketing thing. Keeping the "all-ages" fare seperate from the "adult" stuff.

[Scavenger]

As far as I know, there is no editorial mandate forbidding "crossovers."

Didio has said there is.




18: Something that touches upon expanding the universe with bringing in the Milestone characters and the Red Circle characters – it’s a question that comes up at every panel you do – DC has the Vertigo characters...

DD: Who does? I don’t have the Vertigo characters. The DCU does not have the Vertigo characters. Those are under the auspices of Vertigo under Karen Berger, and they have a set plan for those characters that works independently from what we do here – and that’s that. I’ve answered this question so many times...the reality is, as aggressively as we may tell stories with our characters, we will never be Vertigo Comics. We can never use the language that they use in Vertigo, or address the subject matter that they address, therefore, we try to make a very clear delineation between what is DCU and what is Vertigo. Once characters are up front and prominent there, they cannot be anywhere near the DCU.

NRAMA: Animal Man?

DD: Animal Man came back to the DC Universe because Grant Morrison wanted to write him. Once Grant stopped writing him, we wrapped our arms around him and wouldn’t let him go back. The same with Doom Patrol. That’s just the way the system works. Characters like Swamp Thing are essential to the identity of Vertigo right now – that’s one of the things that Vertigo was built on. I know how important they are for Karen and the Vertigo line, and therefore these trains shall never meet.

NRAMA: I hear what you’re saying, but looking at it from more of a fan perspective, there always seem to parts to that explanation that ring hollow – Swamp Thing isn’t appearing anywhere in Vertigo, and the best selling title has nothing to do with Swamp Thing, Constantine or any of the magic that Neil Gaiman wrote about...not to mention Alan Moore had no problem mixing Swamp Thing with Superman, or sending him into Gotham to get Abbey back – those are classic stories in the DC library. It just seems weird that DC has cut themselves off from using those characters and seems okay with letting some of them languish, but on the other hand, you’re importing whole new universes of characters into the Universe.

DD: Swamp Thing and Superman and Gotham were stories prior to creation of Vertigo. There was no Vertigo when those stories were written, so therefore, they fell under what the DC Universe was at the time, but once Vertigo became its own imprint, its own brand, it became separate from the DC Universe, and therefore we handle it as a separate entity, and we deal with characters individually.

I don’t know how else to say it. Asking me about those characters is like saying, “DC did Amalgam with Marvel – why don’t you use those characters again?” That’s about the same way that I can view the Vertigo characters. If we use something, there is a discussion that has to happen before it. There’s not a free-flowing line that we can move back and forth over.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/110812-Didio2.html

[carabas]

If there are constant crossover of characters, we'd see Minutemen (100 Bullets) v.s. Batman, Lucifer in Superman comics, etc. If you thought public outcry for Dan Didio's head was bad now... wait 'til he drops the ball on those...There's three types of VCertigo book. Nowadays, most of them are completely creator-owned, and have zero to do with the DC universe. And obviously crossovers aren't possible. This would be books like Preacher, Transmetropolitan, DMZ, Air, Crossing Midnight...

Type two is books completely seperate from the DCU, but starring a DC copyright that needs polishing. Like The Losers, Deadman, Beware The Creeper...

Type three, the type we're talking about, is books firmly rooted in the DCU, starring company-owned character that are or were part of the DCU. Like Swamp-Thing, Hellblazer, Sandman, Madame Xanadu... And there really is very little reason to keep those seperate from DC, especially when the DCU has books like Shadowpact, Reign In Hell and Simon Dark.

[Scavenger]

There's three types of VCertigo book.....

Sandman kind of slipped from type 3 to type 2...and Madame Xandadu is playing fast and loose with the barrier, what with things like Alan Scott's lantern showing up and such.

[FanboyStranger]

Sandman kind of slipped from type 3 to type 2...and Madame Xandadu is playing fast and loose with the barrier, what with things like Alan Scott's lantern showing up and such.

I've certainly been reading Madame Xanadu as a DCU book. It manages to enrich elements of DC's mystical past without being too blunt about it. (Alan Scott's lantern, Napoleon's expedition to Egypt leading to Kent Nelson discovering Nabu's helm, Jason Blood throughout the ages)

[carabas]

Sandman kind of slipped from type 3 to type 2...The most recent Sandman book, I forgot what it's called, but the anthology with the Manara story, has the suns of Krypton and Oa in it as a characters, and goes into where the Green Lantern's power comes from.

And Destiny and his book were relatively recently in Brave & The Bold. Johns' first run on JSA extensively dealt with characters mostly famous for their appearnces in Sandman.

[Darrell D.]

Type three, the type we're talking about, is books firmly rooted in the DCU, starring company-owned character that are or were part of the DCU. Like Swamp-Thing, Hellblazer, Sandman, Madame Xanadu... And there really is very little reason to keep those seperate from DC, especially when the DCU has books like Shadowpact, Reign In Hell and Simon Dark.

John Constantine in a Superman book? Or any book with capes?
Does anyone want to really see this?

[Scavenger]

The most recent Sandman book, I forgot what it's called, but the anthology with the Manara story, has the suns of Krypton and Oa in it as a characters, and goes into where the Green Lantern's power comes from.

And Destiny and his book were relatively recently in Brave & The Bold. Johns' first run on JSA extensively dealt with characters mostly famous for their appearnces in Sandman.

But Destiny was an old Anthology host before Neil Gaiman co-opted him.

I'm not arguing that Sandman doesn't tie in to the DCU, and certainly did at the start, but as it went along, it really stopped being DC Earth and started being Sandman world, without even really the small connections it'd had earlier.

[carabas]

When, yaers after Sandman had finished, characters of it show up in JLA, and even play fairly important roles in JSA, then it is obviously a part of the DCU.

And when Mister Miracle, the Martian Manhunter, Superman and Batman... all show up, it is obviously part of the DCU.

And since these were all done years after the tale was told...

But really, it is type 2.5. A new property with the name of an old one and only th most faint connection to the old versions, but still with an adamant connection to the DCU.

[Darrell D.]

My favorite Constantine crossover with the DCU was in the 90's, with the Ostrander written Spectre.
The Phantom Stranger is trying to stop The Spectre from judging the earth. He starts collecting mystical heroes...Zatanna, Etrigan, Dr. Fate.
He finds Constantine in a shelter, completely out of it. He was on a spirit walk in his own book at the time, but it appeared he was drunk as hell. The Stranger decides he is completely useless and leaves him.

[FanboyStranger]

My favorite Constantine crossover with the DCU was in the 90's, with the Ostrander written Spectre.
The Phantom Stranger is trying to stop The Spectre from judging the earth. He starts collecting mystical heroes...Zatanna, Etrigan, Dr. Fate.
He finds Constantine in a shelter, completely out of it. He was on a spirit walk in his own book at the time, but it appeared he was drunk as hell. The Stranger decides he is completely useless and leaves him.

Yeah, that was during Ennis' run. I loved that as well. Not that it added much to the overall storyline of either book, but it was a nice moment that showed that everything was connected. (It also shows that the Phantom Stranger is capable of forgiveness: yeah, the world was at stake, but I'm not sure I'd conscript someone who had recently peed on my shoes.) A few other Spectre cameos: Lucifer on the beach, Lucien helping out that professor whose name escapes me, and Swamp Thing at Corrigan's funeral.

Ostrander's Spectre and Robinson's Starman always felt like Vertigo titles to me (in that they were very mature without the language or 'nudity'). Two of my favorite series of all time, let alone the '90s.

[Darrell D.]

Yeah, the peeing on the shoes was during John's fortieth birthday, in which Swamp Thing rocked out the ganja for the party-goers, which included Zatanna getting toasted.
I have a feeling that the PTB allowed that because they were maybe planning on 'Vertigo-izing' Zatanna at that point and time.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

Funnily enough, Hal Jordan's funeral was the first place I ever saw/heard of John Constantine.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

John Constantine in a Superman book? Or any book with capes?
Does anyone want to really see this?

Yeah, he could hang out with the Ghost Dibny's!
They became Ghosts because of murder and rape, so they are mature as well!



Ostrander's Spectre and Robinson's Starman always felt like Vertigo titles to me (in that they were very mature without the language or 'nudity'). Two of my favorite series of all time, let alone the '90s.

I love Starman to bits, but I've only got the first four issues of Spectre in trade.
Good issues to - shame it isn't fully collected!

[Seraku]

If a writer came up with a really good story that featured Swamp Thing joining the Teen Titans, I'm sure editorial would allow itJMS wrote a done-in-one where Lex Luthor crossed paths with the Swamp Thing and DiDio vetoed it without reading it.

[Seraku]

true story

at Wonder Con I was evesdropping a conversation between Matt Wagner and James Robinson and they were both pretty much agreeing that the whole "VERTIGO AND DCU MUST BE SEPERATE FOREVER" mandate was stupid. Robinson noted that Madame Xanadu felt like a DCU book, and Wagner said that he frequently runs ideas past DiDio about adding DCU elements in Madame Xanadu, he always gets shot down, but a few months later he does it anyway after DiDio has forgotten and when asked he said he ran his idea past DiDio already (which is true).

and that's why Corrigan Spectre was in Madame Xanadu.

[SMARTASS8]

This reminds me of the "in-fighting" between Coke Zero and Coke in those stupid commercials. The sad thing is this seems to be a real pissing contest and not something played for laughs. Didio has made comments in the past that lead me to believe he wishes he could use some of the DC grown Vertigo characters. Doesn't Levitz have power over Berger?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

true story

at Wonder Con I was evesdropping a conversation between Matt Wagner and James Robinson and they were both pretty much agreeing that the whole "VERTIGO AND DCU MUST BE SEPERATE FOREVER" mandate was stupid. Robinson noted that Madame Xanadu felt like a DCU book, and Wagner said that he frequently runs ideas past DiDio about adding DCU elements in Madame Xanadu, he always gets shot down, but a few months later he does it anyway after DiDio has forgotten and when asked he said he ran his idea past DiDio already (which is true).

and that's why Corrigan Spectre was in Madame Xanadu.

Well, I'm not sure what Marvel was thinking moving Alias from a MAX book to a MU book, or Wisdom from MAX to MU - in theory at least, there will be audience members who haven't been able to follow one because of age - or personal taste.
If they are interchangeable it seems silly to have the different lines in place.

[ZachSensei]

I think the best solution to this would be a two way mirror approach. Let me explain.

DC comics can have Vertigo characters that they originally had under their label (Constantine, Swamp Thing, Sandman etc) appear in DC comics. But in the repective Vertigo series there are no DC characters. As for Vertigo original titles they should stay locked up in their titles (no one wants to see Fables vs Superman).

This would let Swamp Thing meet Superman in Brave and the bold, Sandman to visit the JSA, and Constatine can share a cigarette with Detective Chimp. But in the Vertigo series they would be in their own continuity.

Problem solved

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

This would let Swamp Thing meet Superman in Brave and the bold, Sandman to visit the JSA, and Constatine can share a cigarette with Detective Chimp. But in the Vertigo series they would be in their own continuity.

Problem solved

Well yeah, if you want to be a rational adult about it.... geez, some people....

[carabas]

Well, I'm not sure what Marvel was thinking moving Alias from a MAX book to a MU book, or Wisdom from MAX to MU.I wonder what Wisdom was doing on the MAX label to begin with. I don't see a whole lot of difference between the Wisdom mini and the MI 13 ongoing.

The most bonkers decision in that regard was probably moving Supreme Power to Marvel Knights and turning it into a more or less regular superteam book. I don't blame Straczynski for bailing out.

[pariah-1972]

I'm not a big Vertigo fan... but i think the lines should be even more seperate then they are now that way Didio or another other EIC in the future has no control over them and Karen Berger seems to do a great job as it is so there's no need to give her any interference.

And Because there's so many creator owned titles in Vertigo this only makes sense.

And it would also cause less confusion in people.

I would also be worried about someone deciding to collapse Vertigo and main DCU in a crossover like what happened in the first Crisis.

[dancj]

Didio has said there is.
The last line of that quote implies that it's not hard and fast, but that it takes some talking between departments.

[earl]

John Constantine in a Superman book? Or any book with capes?
Does anyone want to really see this?


The way Constantine character was used in the original Swamp Thing would work with most DC books. There have been pretty much twenty plus years of stories since then, but the character is a good fit for a story, as most of the time he is generally explaining what is going on to a character with power.


From working at a publishing company with multiple imprints where there are a bunch of managers with their own little fiefdoms, I can only tell you that the managers of imprints are often very competitive with each other, especially in a business where they are both using the same creative people to make books. I saw a couple of ugly exchanges at a combined editorial board meeting where imprint managers argued over stealing their writers. I'd have to think in comics this would be just as true as making technical books.

[Xero]

The separation has to be a pain in the ass for writers, because DC and Vertigo both somehow have shared versions of "Faerie", "Heaven" and "Hell". Yet no cross pollination is allowed so they are slowly diverging.

In regards to Hell no one ever bothered to provide us with a guide on what was left to DC Comics, and what Vertigo took until they published Reign in Hell last year.

[CBikle]

I would also be worried about someone deciding to collapse Vertigo and main DCU in a crossover like what happened in the first Crisis.

the Vertigo imprint didn't exist when COIE happened; it wasn't founded until 8 years later.

At the time, everything other than a few titles like Warlord, Night Force, Spanner's Galaxy, et al, was considered part of the DCU.

But like you were saying, the Warlord title was actually incorporated into the DCU and tied into Atlantis, The New Gods and Power Girl.

Mike Grell was not pleased.

[pariah-1972]

the Vertigo imprint didn't exist when COIE happened; it wasn't founded until 8 years later.

At the time, everything other than a few titles like Warlord, Night Force, Spanner's Galaxy, et al, was considered part of the DCU.

But like you were saying, the Warlord title was actually incorporated into the DCU and tied into Atlantis, The New Gods and Power Girl.

Mike Grell was not pleased.That's part of the problem at Dc they incorporate all these other universes and characters that aren't originally DCu and then once they get them they don't know what to do with them.

I haven't seen Warlord tied into the main Dcu except for that Jlu episode.

[ZachSensei]

This is the way they should break up the line. I am expanding on my previous idea.

DC universe: All the characters you want. Superman, Sandman, Swamp Thing Batman, etc etc all done in a shared universe. It is messy but people like it. The only thing that should be kept away from it is Vertigo originals we don't want Batman investigating Fables or Krypto teaming up with We3.

Vertigo: The books live in their own series and don't have guest appearence with DC. Things Swamp thing did in Action comics never happened in Swamp Thing Vertigo.

DC All Star: Actually push this as a Vertigo for DC characters. No more going back and forth. It should have worked and it can still work if they actually try. Each book contains a fan favorite DC character but the books don't cross over.


3 distinct lines 3 distinct visions and something from everyone.

[Scavenger]

The last line of that quote implies that it's not hard and fast, but that it takes some talking between departments.

No. it implies that it takes a LOT of talking...and not between departments. This is either Berger/Levitz level or higher up--likely higher up.

Wagner can do it because 1) He's Matt Wagner 2) It's on the Vertigo side, thus it's going to be scene by fewer people. 3) It's subtle...Alan Scott's lantern, not Alan Scott in costume on the cover, etc and 4) most importantly, the Vertigo books are mature readers....it's readers won't be shocked if they go seeking more stories featuring the dcu characters (at least not shocked in the I'm gonna sue them for all the company's worth). But the other way, they don't want Little Timmy exploring the world of Vertigo cuz he saw John Constantine meet Batman...because Little Timmy's mom just might throw a fit and sue when she sees John do something naughty.

[SMARTASS8]

That's part of the problem at Dc they incorporate all these other universes and characters that aren't originally DCu and then once they get them they don't know what to do with them.

I haven't seen Warlord tied into the main Dcu except for that Jlu episode.

To be honest, I wish DC had kept the Milestone characters, the Wildstorm characters, and, eventually, the Archie characters separate until they had these separate universes going strong enough on their own before merging with the DCU, if ever. Having said that, I love that the DCU is a universe that has characters as diverse as Captain Carrot, Arion, Arak, Talky Tawny, Batman, Warlord, Vigilante, Kamandi, and Swamp Thing(I don't care what Berger says). Just because a world has all these characters living on it (although some occur during different times or on alternate Earths) doesn't mean they need to crossover with each other on a regular basis, if at all. It's just cool to know they can.

[pariah-1972]

To be honest, I wish DC had kept the Milestone characters, the Wildstorm characters, and, eventually, the Archie characters separate until they had these separate universes going strong enough on their own before merging with the DCU, if ever. Having said that, I love that the DCU is a universe that has characters as diverse as Captain Carrot, Arion, Arak, Talky Tawny, Batman, Warlord, Vigilante, Kamandi, and Swamp Thing(I don't care what Berger says). Just because a world has all these characters living on it (although some occur during different times or on alternate Earths) doesn't mean they need to crossover with each other on a regular basis, if at all. It's just cool to know they can.I think it's better to keep them in there seperate universes with maybe an occasional crossover like the old crisis's back in the day.

[CBikle]

It seems like there have been exceptions to this rule, but only if the writer and/or artist has a lot of clout.

So if Neil Gaiman really wants to do a team-up story involving Death and the original Challengers Of The Unknown, it'll probably happen.

If the timing were different and JMS had proposed his Lex Luthor-Swamp Thing story right after his success with Babylon 5, there probably wouldn't be a problem.

[Darrell D.]

If the timing were different and JMS had proposed his Lex Luthor-Swamp Thing story right after his success with Babylon 5, there probably wouldn't be a problem.

JMS is coming off writing The Changeling, which starred Angelina Jolie, and was directed by Clint Eastwood. I would say that is significantly more high profile than a sci-fi TV series.

[FanboyStranger]

I haven't seen Warlord tied into the main Dcu except for that Jlu episode.

Here's two off the top of my head:

Towards the end of Priest's Justice League Task Force, the group ends up stranded in Skataris and encounters Travis Morgan and much of his supporting cast.

Not quite as obvious, but Rick Flag and Rustam survive the nuclear blast at
Jotunheim in Ostrander's ongoing Suicide Squad by teleporting into Skataris, which is where Rustam's flaming sword originally came from. (Revealed in the recent Suicide Squad mini after Flag turned up alive in Checkmate.)

[T Hedge Coke]

That was a courtesy, not a requirement, based on the rumored/real reaction Gaiman had to Death showing up in Captain Atom.

The examples you site are from a different era though (remember, Superman, Batman, and J'onn all showed up in the finale of Sandman, too).

How much, if any, of Sandman originally came under the Vertigo imprint? There's a difference between the actual imprint (though there still isn't, to my knowledge, any "infighting" over characters, just a from-above mandate not to have the more adult-ified characters appear in the ostensibly kid-friendly DCU - editorial/management decisions don't have to make sense, they just have to be mandates and obeyed), and a group of books with a similar editor, as Berger's Books were pre-Vertigo.

Delano/Ennis Hellblazer, Moore's Swamp Thing and Morrison's Doom Patrol were all straight up plain and simple DCU comics.

[T Hedge Coke]

I wonder what Wisdom was doing on the MAX label to begin with. I don't see a whole lot of difference between the Wisdom mini and the MI 13 ongoing.

Hole in head.

Also, Wisdom going down on mother-of-Killraven while on an observation mission.

[Xero]

Here's two off the top of my head..........

Also there was the two issue team up between Travis Morgan and Oliver Queen written by Mike Grell and drawn by Dan Jurgens (Green Arrow vol. 1 #27-28).

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/3594/400/3594_4_0000027.jpg
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/3594/400/3594_4_0000028.jpg

[Xero]

duplicate
10char

[CBikle]

JMS is coming off writing The Changeling, which starred Angelina Jolie, and was directed by Clint Eastwood. I would say that is significantly more high profile than a sci-fi TV series.

Yeah, but the Changeling wasn't a big commercial success, whereas B5 was.

Also, JMS comics work has had mixed success.

JMS may not have been the best example, so howsabout this:

If Alan Moore expressed interest in revisiting Swamp Thing and doing a series about him, set in the DCU, I think everyone would be OK with it or would have to be OK with it.

[T Hedge Coke]

If Alan Moore expressed interest in revisiting Swamp Thing and doing a series about him, set in the DCU, I think everyone would be OK with it or would have to be OK with it.

Why?

Moore would probably be the first who wasn't happy with it.

And then there's the element of ABC and League books being tampered/delated from above. It's not as though Moore writes his own ticket everywhere, or even as if every project he pitches, happens.

[CBikle]

Why?

Moore would probably be the first who wasn't happy with it.

And then there's the element of ABC and League books being tampered/delated from above. It's not as though Moore writes his own ticket everywhere, or even as if every project he pitches, happens.

You're completely missing the point; Moore will probably never write for DC again.

I just used him as an example of someone who still has enough clout that he could write a DCU book with a Vertigo character or vice-versa.

[T Hedge Coke]

You're completely missing the point; Moore will probably never write for DC again.

I just used him as an example of someone who still has enough clout that he could write a DCU book with a Vertigo character or vice-versa.

Actually, you're missing the point of your point.

As I said, "Moore would probably be the first who wasn't happy with it."

In tandem to that, Moore isn't someone who "enough clout" to force a project like you're suggesting to happen just because he's Alan Moore, as is demonstrated by the fact he's had stories rejected and altered by DC even after he stopped working for them (ABC period), as well has having stories simply not be printed.

Your point has so many flaws in it, it becomes pointless.

[CaptainCanada]

Well, I'm not sure what Marvel was thinking moving Alias from a MAX book to a MU book
As with Supreme Power, the authors were hoping to reach a wider audience (some stores won't carry MAX books).

[pariah-1972]

I think it's funny that someone says that Dcu is kid friendly.:eek:

[CBikle]

Actually, you're missing the point of your point.

As I said, "Moore would probably be the first who wasn't happy with it."

In tandem to that, Moore isn't someone who "enough clout" to force a project like you're suggesting to happen just because he's Alan Moore, as is demonstrated by the fact he's had stories rejected and altered by DC even after he stopped working for them (ABC period), as well has having stories simply not be printed.

Your point has so many flaws in it, it becomes pointless.

You're still not getting it, but that's ok.

The point of my posts and this whole thread is about DC not allowing DCU characters mingle with Vertigo ones.

Sure it was never going to happen, but if Moore had the desire to revisit Swamp Thing in a mini or one-shot set in the DCU, with, let's say, Lex Luthor as the main villain, I believe his name and history with the character, still has enough clout to make it happen.

Even though Vertigo isn't doing much with Swamp Thing now, he's become symbolic with the imprint and their possessive of it him.

However, Vertigo is only around because it was built on Moore's work, which is another reason why Alan Moore's name has enough clout in this instance, that DC and Vertigo would play ball.

[CBikle]

I think it's funny that someone says that Dcu is kid friendly.:eek:

Well, the books usually are except for that occasional story where you'll see something like Wonderdog killing and maiming Wendy & Marvin.

DC still has the Comics Code Authority seal on most of their books (I just noticed it was missing on this month's Wonder Woman- perhaps due to the interrogation scene).

[pariah-1972]

Well, the books usually are except for that occasional story where you'll see something like Wonderdog killing and maiming Wendy & Marvin.

DC still has the Comics Code Authority seal on most of their books (I just noticed it was missing on this month's Wonder Woman- perhaps due to the interrogation scene).It seems like there isn't a week go by where someone is complaining about something inappropriate in a Dc comic.


Just look over at the Battle for the Cowl Oracle thread.

And Identity Crisis really should have had a parental advisory.

[carabas]

Yeah, but the Changeling wasn't a big commercial success, whereas B5 was.It was decidedly not. It strugglerd for renewal almsot every season, had to change networks, take severe paycuts, and they were so convinced thet fifth season was not going to happen they crammed most of it into the fourth.

It was a cult hit, definitely a critical success, but not a really a big commercial one at all.

[carabas]

How much, if any, of Sandman originally came under the Vertigo imprint?Less than half of it. #1-46 (of 75) were DC, the rest Vertigo.


Hole in head.

Also, Wisdom going down on mother-of-Killraven while on an observation mission.I've seen far worse happen in regular Marvel and DC books.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/Ultimatum_002_023-2.jpg

[pariah-1972]

Less than half of it. #1-46 (of 75) were DC, the rest Vertigo.

I've seen far worse happen in regular Marvel and DC books.

[did you really have to post that?

[Libaax]

John Constantine is bigger than Batman to me. He saved me with his stories,his awesomeness from main DCU and made me read many other vertigo series.

Vertigo are the ideal place for me for comics that arent superhero,mainstream comics stuff. They are HBO of of big two comics. They give you Sopranos,Rome,Deadwood,Carnivalè of comics world.

For me they should be forever seperated from DCU. Specially the characters who were DCU before Vertigo.

Thats why i havent read Swamp Thing despite Alan Moore,Constantine.

Really outside Batman family i have never read more DCU comics at one time than Vertigo comics. Thats why Vertigo exist and have grown since its start. The different fanbase you can sell to that wont read every superhero you have.

[Seraku]

Thats why i havent read Swamp Thing despite Alan Moore,Constantine.
Constantine was a Swamp Thing supporting character for like the first entire decade of his existance


hell, he WAS ST's bridge to the DCU

[CBikle]

It was decidedly not. It strugglerd for renewal almsot every season, had to change networks, take severe paycuts, and they were so convinced thet fifth season was not going to happen they crammed most of it into the fourth.

It was a cult hit, definitely a critical success, but not a really a big commercial one at all.

For a syndicated show it was very much a commercial success (scoring exceptionally well demographically) and did even better overseas. B5 also had a strong internet presence and really, it had more influence in the comics world than Changeling ever could (even with the nominations and awards it received).

[Darrell D.]

Yeah, but the Changeling wasn't a big commercial success, whereas B5 was.

Also, JMS comics work has had mixed success.

JMS may not have been the best example, so howsabout this:

If Alan Moore expressed interest in revisiting Swamp Thing and doing a series about him, set in the DCU, I think everyone would be OK with it or would have to be OK with it.

The Changeling may not have had huge box office numbers, but there is no doubt that it was a high profile film
JMS had a long and high profile run on AMS as well as the MAX Supreme series.
The Alan Moore example is pretty much null and void, as snowmen would be frolicing in Hell before Moore ever worked for DC again.

[CBikle]

The Alan Moore example is pretty much null and void, as snowmen would be frolicing in Hell before Moore ever worked for DC again.

Agreed, but, yet again, that wasn't the point.

[obii]

I still think the biggest point why they keep Vertigo and DCU separate is the recognition factor.
Vertigo is for mature readers while DCU is mostly for all ages.

So having Vertigo characters often appearing in DCU comics would let parents think that Vertigo is nothing else as kids comics (who reads that it is for mature readers, mature comics are porn only for most parents, or?)

[Libaax]

Constantine was a Swamp Thing supporting character for like the first entire decade of his existance


hell, he WAS ST's bridge to the DCU

I know that of course. Who doesnt know where Constantine started specially when Alan Moore was involved in his creation.

I will read it eventually because i will want more old Constantine i havent read. But its not uber important after 20 plus years of his solo series. He is the leading man of vertigo.

[carabas]

I still think the biggest point why they keep Vertigo and DCU separate is the recognition factor.
Vertigo is for mature readers while DCU is mostly for all ages.

So having Vertigo characters often appearing in DCU comics would let parents think that Vertigo is nothing else as kids comics (who reads that it is for mature readers, mature comics are porn only for most parents, or?)The problem there is that quite a lot of DC's superhero output is all ages in name only and feature nudity, gore, rape...
Most Hellblazer stories don't have nearly as much objectionable material in them as Identity Crisis or even McKeever's Teen Titans.

[obii]

Yes, but I think DC wishes to reserve some of these characters for darker stories.

I found the Hitman stories in the DCU rather funny enough and Ennis walked a fine line, but i guess a smoking and drinking Constantine is not the best role model for children.

Basically there are only a few vertigo characters which could be used in the DCU and they are hardly needed. Lots of other sorcerers about so no need for Constantine. poison Ivy is a funnier character for the DCU than swamp thing anyday.

What other Vertigo characters do you miss in the DCU anyway?

[Darrell D.]

The problem there is that quite a lot of DC's superhero output is all ages in name only and feature nudity, gore, rape...
Most Hellblazer stories don't have nearly as much objectionable material in them as Identity Crisis or even McKeever's Teen Titans.

I'd say it depends on who's writing Hellblazer. Azarrello's and Ennis' runs were pretty gritty and down to earth, with plenty of dark, mature content.
I mean, the Hard Times arc is set in a prison, and is like Oz on crank.
I could care less if Swampy goes back to the DCU; but it seems to me that it would dilute the appeal of John Constantine to have him appearing in a spandex book. Just use his clone, Manchester Black, if you simply HAVE to have a smart ass British guy for your story about two guys punching each other with buildings.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Don't know if its been mentioned yet....but....


Alan Moore had plans to really tie John Constantine into the mainstream DCU at one point. With his "Twilight of the Gods" story. In it , a much older Constantine would somehow warn his past self about the future superhero kingdoms.

The idea in the Moore pitch was spinoff books. And he basically pushed that Constantine could support this spinoff series from the event.

But the story was rejected by DC. And even though Constantine did get a spinoff series , it was more or less tied to the Vertigo world.

[CBikle]

Since most of Vertigo's successes have been the series that had no former ties to the DCU, but were strong enough to succeed based on their creative team.

Other than Constantine and Sandman, I can't think of any Vertigo series (using a former DCU character) that have had any continued success since cutting off interaction with the DCU.

This rule must have come into place at some point after Sandman Mystery Theater (a great series) which had a lot of guest-appearances (Blackhawk, Hourman) towards the tail-end of its run.

[Darrell D.]

Shade the Changing Man had a nice run, but the main character really had nothing to do with the DCU version.
Uhm.
Yeah, I got nothing.