Crisis On Infinite Details

[gentlesatirist]

Re-read Crisis On Infinite Earths over the weekend. It's even more jaw-dropping that I recalled from reading it as a teen-ager when it first came out. Definitely one of the top achievements in the history of superhero comics.

But of course being a comics fan, I had a few questions on details :

1 - In issue 5, there's a scene where a cave and cavemen including Anthro materialize at Wayne Manor. Alfred apologizes to Batman for contacting him. Several other heores are present - but so are several villains, including Riddler, Poison Ivy and Weather Wizard. Nobody put two and two together and said "Hey - why is Bruce Wayne's butler calling Batman?"

A minor point, I know, but given the detail Wolfman and Perez used here, they had to be hoping the series would be discussed in this way 24 years later.

2 - It's a bit strange that given the range of Quality Comics characters (Freedom Fighters from Earth-X) that appear, as well as the newly introduced Charlton Comics (Blue Beetle, etc.) characters from Earth-4 that appear, that there are few sightngs of Fawcett Comics (Captain Marvel) characters from Earth-S.

Outside of the basic Marvel family (Cap, Jr. and Mary) there's only Uncle Marvel, Mr. Tawny and the Lieutenants Marvel. No Spy Smasher, Ibis, Mr. Scarlet, Minute Man, etc., all of whom appeared in a JLA crossover in the mid-70s.

Several Fawcett villains - Mr. Mind, Sivana, Ibac - appear, so it's odd that the heroes get overlooked, given the hundreds of minor characters that do show up.

3 - Isn't it amazing that Hal Jordan doesn't appear in a single panel? John Stewart - at that time a little-used backup - is the main GL utilized. At one point he refers to Jordan as having quit or something like that. Even if Jordan was AWOL from his own comic at the time, it's shocking that they didn't drag him back for this event.

Again, I'm very impressed with the writing and art on this series, but if anybody could shed some light on the above topics, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!


- Frank Esposito
Wickliffe OH

[Cei-U!]

Re-read Crisis On Infinite Earths over the weekend. It's even more jaw-dropping that I recalled from reading it as a teen-ager when it first came out. Definitely one of the top achievements in the history of superhero comics.

I, on the other hand, think COIE was a sloppily plotted, shamelessly padded dud that did irreparable (to date) damage to the characters...

BUT...

I love the art, admire the writing in its better scenes (Supergirl's death chokes me up every time) and fully understand why so many love it. Hell, I've got the TPB on my bookshelf and the big Perez/Ross poster hanging on my office/library wall. So for a change I'm going to set aside my bias and answer your questions as objectively as I can.


But of course being a comics fan, I had a few questions on details :

1 - In issue 5, there's a scene where a cave and cavemen including Anthro materialize at Wayne Manor. Alfred apologizes to Batman for contacting him. Several other heores are present - but so are several villains, including Riddler, Poison Ivy and Weather Wizard. Nobody put two and two together and said "Hey - why is Bruce Wayne's butler calling Batman?"

A minor point, I know, but given the detail Wolfman and Perez used here, they had to be hoping the series would be discussed in this way 24 years later.

I never noticed that myself but you're right. Oops!

I don't know what else to say about it other than it typifies the problems that slip through when writers are their own editors.


2 - It's a bit strange that given the range of Quality Comics characters (Freedom Fighters from Earth-X) that appear, as well as the newly introduced Charlton Comics (Blue Beetle, etc.) characters from Earth-4 that appear, that there are few sightngs of Fawcett Comics (Captain Marvel) characters from Earth-S.

Outside of the basic Marvel family (Cap, Jr. and Mary) there's only Uncle Marvel, Mr. Tawny and the Lieutenants Marvel. No Spy Smasher, Ibis, Mr. Scarlet, Minute Man, etc., all of whom appeared in a JLA crossover in the mid-70s.

Several Fawcett villains - Mr. Mind, Sivana, Ibac - appear, so it's odd that the heroes get overlooked, given the hundreds of minor characters that do show up.

DC didn't have the rights for the non-Marvel Family characters at that point (1985-86). The use of Bulletman, Ibis, et al in Justice League of America #135-37 and in the '70s Shazam! series had gotten them in some mild legal trouble, if memory serves. A few years after Crisis, they bought all rights to the Fawcett heroes.


3 - Isn't it amazing that Hal Jordan doesn't appear in a single panel? John Stewart - at that time a little-used backup - is the main GL utilized. At one point he refers to Jordan as having quit or something like that. Even if Jordan was AWOL from his own comic at the time, it's shocking that they didn't drag him back for this event.

Someone else will have to help out here, as I didn't follow Green Lantern after the O'Neil/Adams run. I have only the vaguest of notions re the status quo in the series at the time. I'm gonna read 'em though! I hate that I don't know!


Again, I'm very impressed with the writing and art on this series, but if anybody could shed some light on the above topics, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

I hope this was helpful. And don't listen to cranky old farts like me: it's perfectly okay to like Crisis On Infinite Earths.

Cei-U!
I summon the straight face!

[dan bailey]

The closest I've ever come to reading COIE was a pretty thorough browsing at Books-a-Million a few years ago. Not too long ago I finally came across a used copy of the TPB at what I regard as a decent price (i.e. about what a new comic goes for these days), so I need to sit down & finally read it ... although I'm already somewhat prejudiced against it for reasons along the lines of those Cei-U! cites.

But yeah -- the Supergirl death scene is a tear-jerker. (Same goes for the funeral scene in the otherwise rather unappetizing Identity Crisis, come to think of it.)

[Karl O'Neill]

Wow,

A long and Laborious read,

A great read nonetheless.

This 12 issue maxi series really explains so much of the DCU and gives the reader a better understanding on everything in the DCU.

And issue 12 is titled Final crisis(I wonder if that is where morrison got the title for his project?!?)

A few notes what i liked the best.

1.Supergirl dies
2.Barry allen runs himself to death
3.Wally west becomes the Flash
4.The monitor actually creates the good dr light
5.Superman of earth 2 is truely the greatest hero of all time
6.The Psycho pirate was featured heavily in this series and the ending panel with him in it is brilliant.
7.Superboy prime is rough even at a young age, he trows superman and an other hero througt the portal quite roughly, because he hasn't got time.
8. Darksied fires a beam throught alex luthors eyes and helps win the fight.

I enjoyed the Revelation that superman of earth 2's reality never exsisted at all and he was so very sad and lost his purpose and identity, that struck me as pretty harsh.

I mean, worlds really did die, poor multiverse, but hey it's back now

A few more noteworthy things:

1.Poor Auld Barry allen!
2.Batman was bloody useless, he said it himself.
3.Kamadi and anthro were present in the story, i think grant morrison will use them in final crisis
4.Psycho pirate makes for a cool villain i think
5.Alex luthors powers were decent, positive and anti-matter he was comprised of.
6.A new female wildcat?urrgg

Question:

The losers?

Anything to do with Andy diggle and jock's series?

[Slam_Bradley]

DC didn't have the rights for the non-Marvel Family characters at that point (1985-86). The use of Bulletman, Ibis, et al in Justice League of America #135-37 and in the '70s Shazam! series had gotten them in some mild legal trouble, if memory serves. A few years after Crisis, they bought all rights to the Fawcett heroes.




This is my recollection as well, Kurt, though I can't seem to find confirmation online. But my Web-fu is weak.

[gentlesatirist]

Thanks for the input, boys and girls. Much appreciated.

Looks like Jordan was written out of GL shortly before Crisis began and came back shortly after. Strangely enough, DC's Len Wein was the guy who wrote Jordan out and who also was one of the DC execs who pushed for approval to do Crisis. Think Wein maybe did a favor for his buddy, Crisis writer Marv Wolfman, by taking Jordan out of the picture?

To be fair, I was halfway through the thing before I realized Jordan hadn't been seen. The Guardians show up, as well as other GL Corps members, along with Stewart and Guy Gardner, who returns to fulltime duty.

Good explanation of the Fawcett heroes. I think outside of that JLA cross-over, they used Minute Man in an issue of Shazam, and that was about it. They're really under-used, even to this day. Cartoon Network did a great job of using Spy Smasher in a flashback clip on an episode of the animated Justice League series.

The Batman/Alfred thing is just weird. I wonder if Perez just forgot the setting when he drew in the villains.

As far as the series being padded, I admit some of the sequences where it's just the Montior and Harbinger and Pariah do seem to drag, but that had to be Wolfman just giving Perez a breather after page after page of tiny panels each with a half dozen or more characters.

[spoon_jenkins]

Someone else will have to help out here, as I didn't follow Green Lantern after the O'Neil/Adams run. I have only the vaguest of notions re the status quo in the series at the time. I'm gonna read 'em though! I hate that I don't know!

Looks like Jordan was written out of GL shortly before Crisis began and came back shortly after. Strangely enough, DC's Len Wein was the guy who wrote Jordan out and who also was one of the DC execs who pushed for approval to do Crisis. Think Wein maybe did a favor for his buddy, Crisis writer Marv Wolfman, by taking Jordan out of the picture?

To be fair, I was halfway through the thing before I realized Jordan hadn't been seen. The Guardians show up, as well as other GL Corps members, along with Stewart and Guy Gardner, who returns to fulltime duty.
** SPOILERS **

Hal Jordan wasn't exactly written out of GL. Hal quit his role as GL during the Wein/Gibbons run, a few months before Crisis started. John Stewart became the replacement GL, but Hal (though now ringless) continued to appear in the book. They found ways to tie Jordan in (e.g., John Stewart did some work at Ferris Aircraft).

Englehart/Staton took over and more GLs got brought into the mix. Guy Gardner got a ring. Katma Tui was dispatched to Earth to train Stewart. Some Crisis-related stuff brings in other GLs (Ch'p, Arisia, etc.). Hal decides he wants to join the fold, and it sets things up to re-title Green Lantern as Green Lantern Corps.

** END SPOILERS **

Englehart/Staton is one of my favorite runs of any comic, so I'd encourage any to check it out. I've heard that one of the original goals of Crisis was to create a more ethnically diverse set of characters (e.g. Japanese Dr. Light). For whatever reason, the multiculturalism goal largely fell by the wayside, but I think making John Stewart GL may have been part of that.

[MDG]

I don't know if I've re-read Crisis since the initial release--maybe once right after issue 12 came out. Re-reading these things don't have anything like the year-long experience--waiting for the next issue, not knowing where it's going, the sense that something new is happening. (This really hurts things that are planned--Crisis, Watchmen, Marvels. It's less of an issue where there is a feeling that the writer and editor didn't plan a year ahead and are making it up as they go along (oh, and by the way, we have to appeal to new readers every month)--things like the Miller's Daredevil, Moore/Bisstte/Totleben's Swamp Thing, 60s Marvel and DC universes.

I remember talking to a friend 2 or 3 issues into crisis and one of us saying, "looks like they're going to get rid of everything except Earth-1 and Earth-2." Then a couple of issue later going, "Holy $#!7! They're getting rid of Earth-2 too!," and not being happy about it.

At this point, though, to me, re-reading Crisis would be like re-reading how to program my Beta recorder.

[gentlesatirist]

That diversity move makes sense, since the new Wildcat introduced here is a Hispanic woman.

But after John Stewart made his GL debut in 1971, he didn't appear again until 1974 and then vanished again until '77. That GL run you're referring to was the first time he was featured as an ongoing character. It's like they said "OK, we used a black guy, glad that's over."

Some of DC's attempts at cultural diversity have bordered on parody. Vibe, the Hispanic member of the Detroit-era Justice League? And how could they make Aquaman villain Black Manta a black guy at a time when they had no other black characters? "We've got one black guy - he's the bad guy who's always trying to kill Aquaman!"

I'm still surprised they didn't work in Jordan somehow, even to show him in a couple of panels regretting his decision, since he wasn't able to join the fight. Wolfman throws in all kind of character bits like that, using everyone from Anthro to Balloon Buster to the Creeper (one of my faves) to Bat Lash. They're some of the best parts of the series, since they humanize the characters and demonstrate the depth of the whole project.

[MDG]

I've heard that one of the original goals of Crisis was to create a more ethnically diverse set of characters (e.g. Japanese Dr. Light). For whatever reason, the multiculturalism goal largely fell by the wayside, but I think making John Stewart GL may have been part of that.
I never heard that, but maybe Millennium was supposed to do that--came out a little ham-handed, though. (and, like you, I usually have nothing but good things to say about Englehart/staton--together or separately)

[Slam_Bradley]

I've heard that one of the original goals of Crisis was to create a more ethnically diverse set of characters (e.g. Japanese Dr. Light). For whatever reason, the multiculturalism goal largely fell by the wayside, but I think making John Stewart GL may have been part of that.


I was buying comics when Crisis came out and was reading a lot of the fan press at the time. I don't recall that ever being mentioned as a reason for Crisis. The "reason" was always that the multiverse was too confusing for the readers. Which was very much not the case. It may have been too confusing for the writers and editors, but the readers had no problems.

[gentlesatirist]

Another thing I did was flip through the first issue of Final Crisis shortly after finishing my re-reading of COIEarths. It was like going from reading King Lear to looking at an adaptation of King Lear written for children ages 5-7.

I know Wolfman was writing more of a straightforward superhero story in COIE instead of toying with the very nature of narrative or whatever Morrison was doing in FC, but the difference was still a stark one.


- FE

[prince hal]

I was buying comics when Crisis came out and was reading a lot of the fan press at the time. I don't recall that ever being mentioned as a reason for Crisis. The "reason" was always that the multiverse was too confusing for the readers. Which was very much not the case. It may have been too confusing for the writers and editors, but the readers had no problems.

I defy anyone to explain current continuity in either the Marvel or DC Universe as succinctly as it could have been described 20-odd years ago.

The problem was that the fan base was no longer turning over every few years and they were starting to realize (1) that the Earth-Two heroes were a tad long in the tooth to be running around in tights saving the world, and that (2) the heroes could never really change much, something that a fan who bailed out on, say, Batman when he was 13 or 14 years old.

[johanskull]

Unfortunately, the only reason I enjoyed Crisis on Infinite Earths was for the artwork.

If I had known they were planning on merging all of the earths, I would have screamed. It wasn't a difficult concept to accept, and was always succinctly addressed in the first page of any book dealing with an alternate earth.

One of the joys of the original DC multiverse was the thrill of visiting one of those other earths at least once a year in at least one title. Not to mention the famous annual JLA/JSA team-ups.

But DC didn't have an exit strategy for COIE. They had a deathlist, and they had some notion of a few changes in the hopes of getting more readers to stick around, hence more female and ethnic incarnations.

A few touching moments in COIE's: Supergirl's death scene always brings a tear in my eye, her last words to Superman are priceless. I wasn't bothered too much about losing Barry, since I always liked Kid Flash, but would miss his costume.

Too many good characters were lost, including the original Dove and Earth-2's Robin and Huntress, and... for a time, Ted Grant as Wildcat.

I left DC behind shortly thereafter. It wasn't what I knew, and it wasn't as rich in character history anymore. And I loathed Bryne's Superman reboot.

Left Marvel around the same time (after they brought back Jean Grey for X-factor), since my suspension of disbelief had been shattered.

Tried catching up with DC again sometime later when everything started to make sense again, and the JSA were, again, a prominent part of the universe. And then they did it again... just when I was feelinf comfortable in knowing who everyone was.

If DC had delivered an exit strategy to clean up the mess of COIE, things would have been better, and there probably wouldn't have been so many reboots and rebuilds thereafter. 20 years later and they're still trying to clean up the mess.

[spoon_jenkins]

I was buying comics when Crisis came out and was reading a lot of the fan press at the time. I don't recall that ever being mentioned as a reason for Crisis. The "reason" was always that the multiverse was too confusing for the readers. Which was very much not the case. It may have been too confusing for the writers and editors, but the readers had no problems.
There's no particular reason that Crisis would be required to have only one purpose. I'm certainly aware the Crisis was intended to straighten out the multiverse; that's stated right in Wolfman's text piece in the first issue. But that goal and multiculturalism need not be mutually exclusive.

I don't know where I originally read about the supposed multiculturalism goal, but here's a reference to it:
Earth-D
"The Earth that appears in - and is destroyed in - Legends of the DC Universe: Crisis on Infinite Earths (1998). It features an ethnically diverse range of heroes, and is rumored to be what Wolfman thought the DC Universe should have been like after the Crisis."
(http://www.io.com/~woodward/chroma/crisis.html)
So it could be something Wolfman wanted to do or could just be a rumor.

Maybe this is one for Comic Book Legends Revealed. Brian Cronin, are you out there?

[icctrombone]

At the time, Crisis was a MAJOR event. I would argue that it had Gwen Stacy dies- type of ramifications for DC comics.

But it's been undone by a very bad Infinite Crisis that made a mockery of the heroism of the Characters.

[moonlight_night78]

** SPOILERS **

Hal Jordan wasn't exactly written out of GL. Hal quit his role as GL during the Wein/Gibbons run, a few months before Crisis started. John Stewart became the replacement GL, but Hal (though now ringless) continued to appear in the book. They found ways to tie Jordan in (e.g., John Stewart did some work at Ferris Aircraft).

Englehart/Staton took over and more GLs got brought into the mix. Guy Gardner got a ring. Katma Tui was dispatched to Earth to train Stewart. Some Crisis-related stuff brings in other GLs (Ch'p, Arisia, etc.). Hal decides he wants to join the fold, and it sets things up to re-title Green Lantern as Green Lantern Corps.

** END SPOILERS **

Englehart/Staton is one of my favorite runs of any comic, so I'd encourage any to check it out. I've heard that one of the original goals of Crisis was to create a more ethnically diverse set of characters (e.g. Japanese Dr. Light). For whatever reason, the multiculturalism goal largely fell by the wayside, but I think making John Stewart GL may have been part of that.

Just wanting to add to the disapearance of Green Lantern, Hal's quitting was due to the Guardians exiling hm from Earth for a year due to his not patrolling the other planets in his sector. After his exile, the Guardians let him come back to Earth, but only if he would agree to be "on-call" when emergencies arose in the sector. It was during one of these emergencies that Ferris Aircraft was more or less detroyed by the Demolition Team and Carol Ferris gave him an ultimatium of either being a Green Lantern or being with her. John Stewart become Green Lantern because he was Hal Jordan's backup.

And while Hal Jordan wasn't in Crisis, he was a major player in the storyline that was running concurrent with COIE (being that the Green Lantern mythos was a major part of it)

[gentlesatirist]

The other thing that doesn't make sense of the "we need to clean up the DC universe" idea is that at the time - 1985, or even 1984 when Crisis was being planned - the other earths were barely being used.

There was no ongoing JSA title. Roy Thomas' excellent All-Star Squadron was set on Earth-2, but took place during WW2. The JSA only was appearing in the annual JLA crossovers.

There was no ongoing Shazam title, although I think Capt. Marvel may have been in World's Finest at the time and the characters did appear with Superman in a couple issues of DC Comics Presents.

RThomas had used the Freedom Fighters and other Quality Comics characters in All Star Squadron, but they also had no ongoing title.

So what was the problem? Was DC concerned that if it finally used the Charlton characters it had acquired, that would have been one earth too many? It almost seems like DC was trying to solve a problem that didn't really exist.

[MDG]

The other thing that doesn't make sense of the "we need to clean up the DC universe" idea is that at the time - 1985, or even 1984 when Crisis was being planned - the other earths were barely being used.
I doubt that any reader (or potential reader) of superhero comics would have trouble with the concept of multiple earths. I think it was more an attempt to get "silly silver age stories" out of the continuity.

[MWGallaher]

The other thing that doesn't make sense of the "we need to clean up the DC universe" idea is that at the time - 1985, or even 1984 when Crisis was being planned - the other earths were barely being used.

There was no ongoing JSA title. Roy Thomas' excellent All-Star Squadron was set on Earth-2, but took place during WW2. The JSA only was appearing in the annual JLA crossovers.

There was no ongoing Shazam title, although I think Capt. Marvel may have been in World's Finest at the time and the characters did appear with Superman in a couple issues of DC Comics Presents.

RThomas had used the Freedom Fighters and other Quality Comics characters in All Star Squadron, but they also had no ongoing title.

So what was the problem? Was DC concerned that if it finally used the Charlton characters it had acquired, that would have been one earth too many? It almost seems like DC was trying to solve a problem that didn't really exist.
I suspect the problem was that DC wanted to use these characters more, especially Captain Marvel and the Charlton Action Heroes, but didn't like the idea of "having" to include explanations of the multiverse on half of the new titles they envisioned, or having to feature universe-hopping every time they wanted to boost a new title with guest appearances of JLAers or established DCU bad guys.

[Shellhead]

The other thing that doesn't make sense of the "we need to clean up the DC universe" idea is that at the time - 1985, or even 1984 when Crisis was being planned - the other earths were barely being used.

There was no ongoing JSA title. Roy Thomas' excellent All-Star Squadron was set on Earth-2, but took place during WW2. The JSA only was appearing in the annual JLA crossovers.

There was no ongoing Shazam title, although I think Capt. Marvel may have been in World's Finest at the time and the characters did appear with Superman in a couple issues of DC Comics Presents.

RThomas had used the Freedom Fighters and other Quality Comics characters in All Star Squadron, but they also had no ongoing title.

So what was the problem? Was DC concerned that if it finally used the Charlton characters it had acquired, that would have been one earth too many? It almost seems like DC was trying to solve a problem that didn't really exist.

Infinity Inc was also around before the Crisis started. They were the legacy heroes associated with the JSA. The first 10 issues were great, and there was a lot of potential, but the Crisis ruined them by making them redundant with the Teen Titans. Part of what made Infinity Inc special was that Earth-2 connection. Without Earth-2, they were just another group of young heroes.

[gentlesatirist]

Had forgotten about Infinity Inc. But from what you're saying, that title was helped rather than hurt by its Earth-2 setting.

Maybe the Charlton acquisition was the impetus. Blue Beetle and Capt. Atom soon were given their own titles, with CA's lasting for several years. BB also joined the Justice League and the Question soon got his own critically praised title. So the Charlton heroes quickly got some DCU exposure.

Scott Tipton at Comics 101 also pointed out that DC quickly went away from the post-Crisis universe with Byrne's Superman reboot, which changed a whole mess of things.

[Paradox]

gentlesatirist shouldn't drink the Kool-Aid:

The other thing that doesn't make sense of the "we need to clean up the DC universe" idea is that at the time - 1985, or even 1984 when Crisis was being planned - the other earths were barely being used.

There was no ongoing JSA title. Roy Thomas' excellent All-Star Squadron was set on Earth-2, but took place during WW2. The JSA only was appearing in the annual JLA crossovers.

There was no ongoing Shazam title, although I think Capt. Marvel may have been in World's Finest at the time and the characters did appear with Superman in a couple issues of DC Comics Presents.

RThomas had used the Freedom Fighters and other Quality Comics characters in All Star Squadron, but they also had no ongoing title.

So what was the problem? Was DC concerned that if it finally used the Charlton characters it had acquired, that would have been one earth too many? It almost seems like DC was trying to solve a problem that didn't really exist.

Despite the whole "the fans are getting confused" rallying cry, it was a load of bullshit. The fans were never confused by the multiple Earths. However, many of the editors and writers WERE (or they just didn't give a shit). Followable continuity was the rule of the day and it was easier for DC to do that if they just put everyone on the same Earth where they could all interact without having to think about who was on what Earth. Please note, I said "easier", not "better". :wink:

[MDG]

Despite the whole "the fans are getting confused" rallying cry, it was a load of bullshit. The fans were never confused by the multiple Earths. However, many of the editors and writers WERE (or they just didn't give a shit).
No offense, but that sounds even more dubious. This was the generation of writers and editors who were the original fans who demanded continuity. I have a hard time believing people like Thomas and Wolfman couldn't tell you who belonged on which earth. I mean, wasn't that the most fun part of writing bronze age books?

[Endless Flight]

I actually thought the idea of multiple earths was pretty cool when I was a kid. I had no trouble as a 10 year old grasping all the concepts. They don't give young kids enough credit. I bet my six year old could grasp the basic idea if I explained it in a simple manner.

[Slam_Bradley]

No offense, but that sounds even more dubious. This was the generation of writers and editors who were the original fans who demanded continuity. I have a hard time believing people like Thomas and Wolfman couldn't tell you who belonged on which earth. I mean, wasn't that the most fun part of writing bronze age books?


Thomas and Wolfman weren't. But there were very clearly issues within DC, usually dealing with newer "fan-creators" dealing with older creators. The poster children for this was Bob Haney and Paul Levitz. It's clear in numerous interviews with people involved that Levitz would have an apoplexy when he was assistant editor on Brave & Bold and Haney would turn in a story that didn't meet with his "continuity wank test." To the point of extensive re-writing. I think it was a extremely small minority of fans, but a majority of "fan-creators" who were really bugged by the Batman-Wildcat or Batman-Spectre team-ups and Crisis was one way of making sure that their continuity love-fest wasn't upset.

[MDG]

Yeah, but wasn't Haney gone by the time of Crisis? (As well as Boltinoff, Kanigher, etc.) What "older" writers were still on the mainstream books?

[Roquefort Raider]

I have a hard time believing people like Thomas and Wolfman couldn't tell you who belonged on which earth. I mean, wasn't that the most fun part of writing bronze age books?

Yeah, I don't buy the explanation that anyone could find the multiple Earths confusing, much less editors... especially since the multiverse was not part and parcel of day-to-day DC continuity. How did the fact that All-Star Squadron or Warlord occur on different versions of Earth than the "regular" DC universe affect Batman or Superman? It's not as if there was a constant reference to Earth-2 or Earth-S in the books.

On the other hand, roughly a year before CoIE, Dick Giordano published a fan letter that (I'm convinced of it) was the prelude to the event. In the letter, it was said that the DC "modern" superheroes had now been active for 25+ years, making it difficult to maintain the illusion that they were still in their early 30s. Why wasn't Batman an old man by now? How could Robin still be a teenager? It was perhaps time to rejuvenate the heroes... by rebooting the entire line. It was also an opportunity to introduce some variety and make the Flash a woman, for example.

I'm pretty sure that DC conceived Crisis not as a way to solve a nonexistent continuity confusion issue, but to start the line from scratch.

Unfortunately, DC tried to have its cake and eat it too. The reboot was only partial, with leaving readers uncertain as to what had or had not previously occurred in the post-crisis universe. (If a reboot was required it would have been better, IMO, to restart every character from the beginning). The reintroduction of certain characters was also done in a hurried way, leading to much more confusion than what CoIE was supposed to have resolved. (I don't even want to try to understand Hawkman's continuity)!

[Red Oak Kid]

I never read COIE but I am enjoying this thread.

[prince hal]

I
On the other hand, roughly a year before CoIE, Dick Giordano published a fan letter that (I'm convinced of it) was the prelude to the event. In the letter, it was said that the DC "modern" superheroes had now been active for 25+ years, making it difficult to maintain the illusion that they were still in their early 30s. Why wasn't Batman an old man by now? How could Robin still be a teenager? It was perhaps time to rejuvenate the heroes... by rebooting the entire line. It was also an opportunity to introduce some variety and make the Flash a woman, for example.

I'm pretty sure that DC conceived Crisis not as a way to solve a nonexistent continuity confusion issue, but to start the line from scratch.



And since the superheroes had not slipped in popularity, as had happened in the interregnum between Golden and Silver Ages, they didn't have the "advantage' of rebooting after a five- or ten-year hiatus.

And all they hadda do was add another earth. Isn't that what they've essentially done now?

[Simon Garth]

At the time, Crisis was a MAJOR event. I would argue that it had Gwen Stacy dies- type of ramifications for DC comics.

But it's been undone by a very bad Infinite Crisis that made a mockery of the heroism of the Characters.

I'll stand up (very slightly) for Infinite Crisis. It was a terribly written series, that made virtually no sense, with some truly abysmal art fill-ins - but it was at least better than COIE, which really marked the beginning of the end for my interest in comics (the last time around).

COIE was even more awfully written, with even bigger plot holes in a stupid story dragged out over at least 4 more issues than it has plot to support ("the anti monitor is dead! Oh no he isn't! Behind you! It's the anti-monitor! Again! Aha! But now we've killed him, hoorah! But, no!! The Anti-monitor is back....." repeat ad infinitum). And I still think that, for a universe devouring ultimate big bad, the Anti-Monitor is a monumentally stupid and weak name..

[Roquefort Raider]

"the anti monitor is dead! Oh no he isn't! Behind you! It's the anti-monitor! Again! Aha! But now we've killed him, hoorah! But, no!! The Anti-monitor is back....." repeat ad infinitum)

Plot-wise, that's exactly what I remember from CoIE!

That kind of event where every character is expected to contribute something also leads to ridiculous scenes... You'll have this OmniMegaUniversalThreat Guy looking all ominous, and everyone will take a shot at him (with an inspiring line like "if we do this together, we can succeed")!

Kryptonians blast away with their X-Ray vision! Wildfire pours on the anti-energy! Firestorm unleashes nuclear blasts! Batman throws a batarang! (wait... Batman what???)

[gentlesatirist]

Yeah, but that kind of "everybody has to help" idea is central to every team book. If not, you could just have Batman and Nightwing hidden away in a secret location, processing all the info and telling the big guns what to do.

Batman or Captain America punching Galactus in the leg or Darkseid in his head-helmet doesn't accomplish a lot, but at least looks like they're trying.

[Roquefort Raider]

Batman or Captain America punching Galactus in the leg or Darkseid in his head-helmet doesn't accomplish a lot, but at least looks like they're trying.

And who knows? It might just work...

http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/images/spiderman_amazing/270.jpg


:wink:

[Shellhead]

I'll stand up (very slightly) for Infinite Crisis. It was a terribly written series, that made virtually no sense, with some truly abysmal art fill-ins - but it was at least better than COIE, which really marked the beginning of the end for my interest in comics (the last time around).

COIE was even more awfully written, with even bigger plot holes in a stupid story dragged out over at least 4 more issues than it has plot to support ("the anti monitor is dead! Oh no he isn't! Behind you! It's the anti-monitor! Again! Aha! But now we've killed him, hoorah! But, no!! The Anti-monitor is back....." repeat ad infinitum). And I still think that, for a universe devouring ultimate big bad, the Anti-Monitor is a monumentally stupid and weak name..

Good points. But at the time, COIE was incredibly exciting. For one thing, it was better than at least 95% of anything that DC had ever done before. And it was an incredibly ambitious project, unprecedented in comics at that point, crossing over into nearly every title across the line. And it definitely jumpstarted some creativity at DC afterwards, at least for a few exciting years.

By contrast, Marvel at that time did Secret Wars, a weak and contrived story that seemed purely calculated to sell action figures. The consequences were more gimmicky: Spidey has a new costume! Now even bad artists can draw Spider-man! X-Men feel persecuted! And edgy! Molecule Man is in love! With a woman with huge tits! And then Shooter followed up with Secret Wars II, an unbelievably lame story that killed any remaining enthusiasm that I had for Marvel comics.

[Simon Garth]

Good points. But at the time, COIE was incredibly exciting. For one thing, it was better than at least 95% of anything that DC had ever done before. And it was an incredibly ambitious project, unprecedented in comics at that point, crossing over into nearly every title across the line. And it definitely jumpstarted some creativity at DC afterwards, at least for a few exciting years.

Really? Wow, I could not be more opposite.

I was always a Marvel zombie (hence the user name), but had started to branch out around this time, which was a real heyday for non-big 2 stuff (Nexus, Badger, Concrete, American Flagg etc). And I was even having another go at DC, which I've never had much of a taste for (except for an inexplicable fascination with the Legion). I'm not sure I've got the chronology right, but I'd been buying Teen Titans, of which the first 10 or 12 issues were pretty good (before rapidly going downhill), read Ronin, Swamp Thing and Dark Knight and I thought COIE would be a good jumping on point for trialling more mainstream DC, as Everything Would Change!!

So I bought it every month, and it was .... terrible. I've never been much of a fan of Wolfman, and it had all his tropes that I disliked - ridiculous overblown dialogue, and plot holes you could drive a planet through. I really didn't enjoy Perez' artwork on this either - far, far too many of his ultra-anguished faces. There's too much about the whole story which is really stupid - the Anti-Monitor, Harbinger, Pariah, the whole - "oh look it's Character X, who hasn't been seen for several years, battling amorphous black blobs because we can't be arsed to design characters, and ... gasp! Who'da thunk it?! Now they're...choke... D E A D!" schtick, over and over and over again. And the whole, is he dead / no he isn't stuff with the 'Major Villain With The Lamest Name In the History Of DC Comics (And That's The Company That Thinks Putting An -O At The End Of A Concept Makes A Good Character Name)'. Aargh - don't get me started on that hobby horse again!

Anyway, after that utter car crash, I tried:

the new Flash, due to Mike Baron (lasted about 5 issues before I gave up on that)
Batman (Year One was tremendous, the rest sucked)
Man of Steel (really sucked)
JLA (fun for a couple of issues, but wasn't interested enough to keep reading once Booster Gold appeared, who I hated on sight)
Killing Joke? Hated it. Still think it's one of the worst things that Moore ever wrote
Watchmen? OK. Original, yes. Mould-breaking, yes. Innovative, yes. Logically built a post-superhero world, yes. But dull? Oh yesThe Legion had come off the Great Darkness story, and was in the process of going to hell afterwards, Moore was off Swamp Thing, and I just .... gave up. DC's barely published anything since that I've wanted to read. Until Infinite Crisis, which was of course another utter train wreck, and the new Legion (of which the less said, the better)


By contrast, Marvel at that time did Secret Wars, a weak and contrived story that seemed purely calculated to sell action figures.

Probably because it was!


The consequences were more gimmicky: Spidey has a new costume! Now even bad artists can draw Spider-man! X-Men feel persecuted! And edgy! Molecule Man is in love!

Yep, lots of nothing, agreed


With a woman with huge tits!

So, not all bad then! :smile: From what I've seen of 90s comics, that statement alone would have counted as the "unique selling point" for a whole company's line of comics. Probably several companies.


And then Shooter followed up with Secret Wars II, an unbelievably lame story that killed any remaining enthusiasm that I had for Marvel comics.

Yep - SW2 pretty much killed me off as well. To this day, I still haven't read to the end of that crapfest, and up 'til that point, I was buying virtually the whole Marvel superhero line.

[Simon Garth]

I don't know what else to say about it other than it typifies the problems that slip through when writers are their own editors.

Going way off topic, but I missed this line the first time through, and it really chimes with me. The period that I regard as the real nadir of Marvel, was the early-mid 70s when Thomas, Wolfman, Conway (& Wein, I think) were all "self-editing" (an oxymoron, if ever I heard one), and were carving up the major titles between them (throw in the return of Kirby and there was barely a readable title in the line!)

Thomas is a good enough writer to get away with it a lot of the time (though I'm not a great fan, I recognise his skill as a writer), whereas the other 3 certainly weren't. I have a feeling it was the advent of Shooter that put paid to the practise, and caused the exit of most of those. Love or loathe him, he did the company and the industry a service.

It's no coincidence that the stuff from that era that I still remember fondly are the "minor" titles that the writer-egoters didn't concern themselves with - Defenders, Man-Thing, War of the Worlds, Deathlok, Jungle Action, Warlock etc.

If Wolfman / Wein / Conway all got writer-editor status at DC went they decamped over there, it's no surprise that I couldn't stand most of their output.

[JKCarrier]

It's no coincidence that the stuff from that era that I still remember fondly are the "minor" titles that the writer-egoters didn't concern themselves with - Defenders, Man-Thing, War of the Worlds, Deathlok, Jungle Action, Warlock etc.

Still, I think a relative lack of editorial interference is what allowed those quirky, oddball titles to exist in the first place. You didn't see much of that kind of experimentation and innovation during Shooter's reign. Steve Englehart has said in various interviews that he was able to get away with some pretty "out there" stuff in Avengers and Captain America, simply because Roy Thomas was too busy to micro-manage him. "As long as you turn the scripts in on time, and the books keep selling, you can keep writing them."

I think that Marvel and DC today are much too editor-driven. It seems like all the writers do these days is connect the dots between editorially-mandated events. I'd rather see the writers let off the leash a bit more, even if that meant the occasional self-indulgent failure, just because it would be more interesting than the current "everyone in lockstep" uber-continuity approach.

[Rob Allen]

I have a feeling it was the advent of Shooter that put paid to the practise, and caused the exit of most of those. Love or loathe him, he did the company and the industry a service.

Shooter gets a lot of the credit or blame for the end of the writer/editor era, but I understand that it was a decision made higher up in the company, prior to Shooter becoming EIC. They couldn't break the existing contracts they had with the writer/editors, and by the time the contracts expired, Shooter had become EIC. He and the Marvel corporate honchos handled the whole situation badly; there was a lot of unnecessary secrecy about the decision. But ultimately Shooter was carrying out policy, not making it.

[benday-dot]

Still, I think a relative lack of editorial interference is what allowed those quirky, oddball titles to exist in the first place. You didn't see much of that kind of experimentation and innovation during Shooter's reign. Steve Englehart has said in various interviews that he was able to get away with some pretty "out there" stuff in Avengers and Captain America, simply because Roy Thomas was too busy to micro-manage him. "As long as you turn the scripts in on time, and the books keep selling, you can keep writing them."

I think that Marvel and DC today are much too editor-driven. It seems like all the writers do these days is connect the dots between editorially-mandated events. I'd rather see the writers let off the leash a bit more, even if that meant the occasional self-indulgent failure, just because it would be more interesting than the current "everyone in lockstep" uber-continuity approach.

I agree completely JK. The bloated and blighted era of the cross-company event that is no prevalent today is synonymous with editorial fiat from above. The self-contained and sui generis story, that is the stuff of individual inspiration, is not much seen anymore, and may have had its heyday in the writer driven era of Marvel in the 70's. Not perfect, but it had more "soul" than that exuded by the bland ethos that would come to eclipse it. It is no accident that the stories I like best in today's Marvel Universe are also those (Daredevil, Captain America) which tend to eschew, as much as permitted, the uninspiring road plan of the "great event."