When did Lesbians stop being Gay?

[K-DoG7p7]

When did "Gay" become a purely male thing?

I'm just wondering because of stuff like GLAAD.. Gay and Lesbian, when Lesbians are gay, why list them separately?

[NickThompson]

GLAAD looks like glad, which is a better acronym than GAAD, which sounds like you've been stabbed or something.

[bert]

in my experience, the Lesbians have always segregated themselves from the "gay" connotation.

even when I was just a young cub, the Lesbians would clarify that they were "Lesbian" and not "Gay"

just one of those things I guess.

[Dazzler]

The slang version of "lesbian" is actually older than the slang version of "gay"

Go figure. Moot point, K. :)

--Dazz

[shrike]

Isn't there anything on Wikipedia?

If not, there really should be.

[Lester C.]

Some gay people see themselves as a distinct minority population. If they are wiling to make that distinction about their identity, they why not further distinct themselves into more separate groups?

[K-DoG7p7]

I find it sexist...
Honestly..

Think about it..

[Eliseu Gouveia]

In all fairness, the only lesbian I know who I´d deem gay is Ellen Degeneres and even that´s stretching.

She´s occasionally giddy at best ... :biggrin:

[shrike]

Well 'lesbian' sounds french and french is very sexy...

















(yes, I'm quite aware that 'lesbian' is not actually a french word)

[K-DoG7p7]

Well 'lesbian' sounds french and french is very sexy...

















(yes, I'm quite aware that 'lesbian' is not actually a french word)

I believe its Greek

[shrike]

I believe its Greek

You are correct. Isle of Lesbos and all that. :tongue:

[mgs]

When did "Gay" become a purely male thing?

I'm just wondering because of stuff like GLAAD.. Gay and Lesbian, when Lesbians are gay, why list them separately?
I never understood that either. Or why, somehow girls think they can hook up with other girls and not consider themselves to at least be bi. Maybe some girls on the edge don't like the 'gay' stigma? :confused: I dunno.

[shrike]

I never understood that either. Or why, somehow girls think they can hook up with other girls and not consider themselves to at least be bi. Maybe some girls on the edge don't like the 'gay' stigma? :confused: I dunno.

LOL a friend of mine was the 'social director' in a sorority in college and pretty much hooked up with a LOT of the other girls at one time or another. Her reasoning that she was still heterosexual is that, according to her, '(they) didn't kiss' while being intimate.

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

People will come up with some wild stretches. One of the more popular is, if I take the man's role, I'm not 'really' Gay.

As for the original question, my guess is it's because the Gay male community and the Gay female community were largely seperate until fairly recently, so designating something as 'Gay' usually meant 'Gay male.'

[K-DoG7p7]

People will come up with some wild stretches. One of the more popular is, if I take the man's role, I'm not 'really' Gay.

As for the original question, my guess is it's because the Gay male community and the Gay female community were largely seperate until fairly recently, so designating something as 'Gay' usually meant 'Gay male.'

then Lesbians should not be allowed to call them self gay.. or Gay dudes should get their own name.. or maybe use Lesbian..
if not.. then its sexist

[buttler]

I don't think it's necessarily that lesbians don't consider themselves to be gay. It's just that some gay organizations have been geared very much toward gay men, so other organizations label themselves "gay and lesbian" or "gay, lesbian, bi and transgendered" just to make different subsets of queer culture feel as welcome as possible.

[mgs]

LOL a friend of mine was the 'social director' in a sorority in college and pretty much hooked up with a LOT of the other girls at one time or another. Her reasoning that she was still heterosexual is that, according to her, '(they) didn't kiss' while being intimate.
yeah, see, that stuff pretty much there. When girls are that much in denial, it's frustrating to hear their arguments.

[Flâneur]

Men are gay in the same way that US citizens are American. Technically, Canadians and Mexicans are also American but they already have nationalistic identities so the term isn't really used by them. Lesbians are gay but not as commonly referred to as such.

Also, it should be noted that gay is an adjective, lesbian is a noun.

[Tobias March]

I never understood that either. Or why, somehow girls think they can hook up with other girls and not consider themselves to at least be bi. Maybe some girls on the edge don't like the 'gay' stigma? :confused: I dunno.

Once again - Watchmen can be referred to here.

Remember the cab driver's girlfriend was attending a 'Gay Womans', protest (or was it Womyn?).

I think Moore and his wife were involved in similar organisations during the 80's.

[Dazzler]

Once again - Watchmen can be referred to here.

Remember the cab driver's girlfriend was attending a 'Gay Womans', protest (or was it Womyn?).

I think Moore and his wife were involved in similar organisations during the 80's.
Wow, if that's true, that makes his crappy treatment of almost every gay character in that book even sadder.

--Dazz

[Grazzt]

I think it's because in the 70s, the feminist movement sort of claimed the lesbians for their own and they split from the general gay movement for a while. My gay history might be a bit off here, though, so maybe one of the other posters knows more about it.

[Dazzler]

I think it's because in the 70s, the feminist movement sort of claimed the lesbians for their own and they split from the general gay movement for a while. My gay history might be a bit off here, though, so maybe one of the other posters knows more about it.

The women's lib movement generally HATED the lesbians, initially. Enough to kick them out of groups and/or shun them.


--Dazz

[buttler]

The women's lib movement generally HATED the lesbians, initially. Enough to kick them out of groups and/or shun them.

But . . . but what about the feminist-homosexualist axis? Surely Dave Sim wouldn't steer me wrong.

[Dazzler]

But . . . but what about the feminist-homosexualist axis? Surely Dave Sim wouldn't steer me wrong.

Gee, well, I generally was just talking about the history NOT on Crazy Earth.
:tongue: :tongue:

--Dazz

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

Yeah, the early feminists were terrified of being branded "hairy-legged dykes," so they did their best to purge lesbians from their ranks for public relations purposes.

[Grazzt]

Yeah, the early feminists were terrified of being branded "hairy-legged dykes," so they did their best to purge lesbians from their ranks for public relations purposes.

I was thinking the Second Wave. I wouldn't be surprised if I was entirely wrong, though.

[Dazzler]

I was thinking the Second Wave. I wouldn't be surprised if I was entirely wrong, though.
No, I think you're right. Once feminists realized that they couldn't do what needed doing without the support of ALL women, even the ones they didn't "approve" of, they softened their stances.

I think it's a shameful part of history, that early period, but it does teach an important lesson. The women's lib movement learned, adapted, evolved, and moved on from it.

--Dazz

[Gilda Dent]

You have it backwards.

The term lesbian being a separate designation for female homosexuals first came into common usage in the 1890s, taken from medical literature of the time, around the same time that "gay" became a general reference to what was then seen as sexual immorality of any kind, and more specifically (again, as things were seen by mainstream society) homosexual males.

Gay and lesbian began as separate terms. The use of gay as a generic term referring to homosexuals of either sex is a relatively recent usage, and one that has much less acceptance within the GLBT community than outside of it.

[BnL]

In my experience, most lesbians don't object to being called gay.

[Michael P]

Wow, if that's true, that makes his crappy treatment of almost every gay character in that book even sadder.

--Dazz

Why should they have it any easier than everybody else in the book?

[Weetomuncher]

About the only accurate blanket term is 'homosexual' as putting men attracted to men and woman attracted to woman in the same grouping is like putting Pepsi drinkers and Coke drinkers together as Cola drinkers when they are rival products.

About the only real common ground between Gay and Lesbian people is that they are looking for rights and new legislation to help their ways of life.

It is like workers who do different types of work being affiliated to the same labour union and chasing similar goals despite having differences to create benefits for all their membership.

[Dazzler]

Why should they have it any easier than everybody else in the book?

They shouldn't.

It's just the choices for how and why those characters have it hard like everybody else are cliche.

--Dazz

[Tobias March]

Why should they have it any easier than everybody else in the book?

Yes I was puzzled by that too.

In face referencing what Gilda said, wouldn't it be that the girlfriend was arguing that there be a conflation of terms - gay men, gay women - instead of setting up these opposing sub-groups, easily pigeon-holed by mainstream culture?

[Michael P]

I dunno, "decapitated in a car crash" usually makes me think of Jayne Mansfield, not gays.

[Dazzler]

I dunno, "decapitated in a car crash" usually makes me think of Jayne Mansfield, not gays.
Yeah, but closeted leader of the group was weak, ineffectual, and limp writsted in terms of willpower. All of that said outright.

Hooded Justice was a quasi-Nazi.

The big bad guy is said to be possibly gay because he's effeminate and un-manly. And of course, evil pretending to be a good guy.

The lesbian gets stabbed to death, and it's all her own fault! At least, according to the character you're supposed to relate to most.

EDIT: Also, she's a man hating mega bitch by all accounts. Lesbian cliche.

--Dazz

[Spackling Compound]

They shouldn't.

It's just the choices for how and why those characters have it hard like everybody else are cliche.

--Dazz

Yeah, the gay couple in Watchmen when she handed over a copy of R.D. Laing's Knots? Really not one of Moore's finest moments.

Some of the other "auxillary" cast were written rather wooden as well, though.

[Tobias March]

Yeah, but closeted leader of the group was weak, ineffectual, and limp writsted in terms of willpower. All of that said outright.

Hooded Justice was a quasi-Nazi.

The big bad guy is said to be possibly gay because he's effeminate and un-manly. And of course, evil pretending to be a good guy.

The lesbian gets stabbed to death, and it's all her own fault! At least, according to the character you're supposed to relate to most.

--Dazz

The manly Comedian is a fascist, baby-murdering rapist.

Nite-Owl can only get it up by fantasising about super-villainesses.

Silk Spectre has so many daddy issues, she stayed in a relationship with an emotionally unavailable man-god.

[Dazzler]

The manly Comedian is a fascist, baby-murdering rapist.

Nite-Owl can only get it up by fantasising about super-villainesses.

Silk Spectre has so many daddy issues, she stayed in a relationship with an emotionally unavailable man-god.

Right, but how many of those things have been used as writing cliches to represent ALL straight people since forever? The things I'm talking about are common and crappy themes applied to gay people.

--Dazz

[Tobias March]

Right, but how many of those things have been used as writing cliches to represent ALL straight people since forever? The things I'm talking about are common and crappy themes applied to gay people.

--Dazz

No, I take your point, it's just that in Watchmen....everyone is doomed. Everyone is a negative stereotype of overblown comic book character behaviour.

By my count half of the Minutemen are gay. Before Watchmen I cannot think of any superhero team that had more than one gay team member. What's more of that collection of characters, only Silk Spectre survives without having been killed either through accident or brutal murder (or being locked up in an asylum).

[Grazzt]

Yeah, but closeted leader of the group was weak, ineffectual, and limp writsted in terms of willpower. All of that said outright.

Hooded Justice was a quasi-Nazi.

He was a decorated soldier before that. As for Hooded Justice, that might just be a product of the racism of his times.

And I think there's a fairly good chance that both survived (http://watchmen.wikia.com/wiki/The_Fate_of_Hooded_Justice_and_Captain_Metropolis) , although that might just be an epileptic tree. Which is better treatment than the Silhouette got.

[Dazzler]

Yeah, the gay couple in Watchmen when she handed over a copy of R.D. Laing's Knots? Really not one of Moore's finest moments.
Well.....I can't speak to that, because I have no idea what the significance of the exchange is. I know he's some kind of psychoanalyst, but that's about it.

Some of the other "auxillary" cast were written rather wooden as well, though.
Honestly, I thought everyone was pretty wooden...but I'm wary of getting into an Alan Moore discussion with the dissenting opinion. They always end ugly.

--Dazz

[Spackling Compound]

Well.....I can't speak to that, because I have no idea what the significance of the exchange is. I know he's some kind of psychoanalyst, but that's about it.


--Dazz

The book was quite popular in the 70's. I considered it sort of on par with Jonathan Livingston Seagull and that sort of thing.
A "hippy" friend once sat on her couch and read it aloud to me. It was interminable but she made it seem important.

[Dazzler]

No, I take your point, it's just that in Watchmen....everyone is doomed. Everyone is a negative stereotype of overblown comic book character behaviour.
I can see that point. It's a good one. Unfortunately, it doesn't excuse the stereotypes for me. They're not used in a sufficiently satirical way to be satisfying for me. For the passing fan, it's not going to be seen as a comment or satire, it's going to be seen for what it is.

By my count half of the Minutemen are gay. Before Watchmen I cannot think of any superhero team that had more than one gay team member. What's more of that collection of characters, only Silk Spectre survives without having been killed either through accident or brutal murder (or being locked up in an asylum).
I'm not all that worried about the numbers game. All the numbers in the world don't matter if none of those characters are treated like rounded human beings or are just overblown stereotypes.

Anyway, that's just where I'm sitting with it.

--Dazz

[Dazzler]

The book was quite popular in the 70's. I considered it sort of on par with Jonathan Livingston Seagull and that sort of thing.
A "hippy" friend once sat on her couch and read it aloud to me. It was interminable but she made it seem important.

Yick. Well, you know lesbians and their pop-psych EST obsessions. I can see your point now.

--Dazz

[Tobias March]

I can see that point. It's a good one. Unfortunately, it doesn't excuse the stereotypes for me. They're not used in a sufficiently satirical way to be satisfying for me. For the passing fan, it's not going to be seen as a comment or satire, it's going to be seen for what it is.


I'm not all that worried about the numbers game. All the numbers in the world don't matter if none of those characters are treated like rounded human beings or are just overblown stereotypes.

Anyway, that's just where I'm sitting with it.

--Dazz

Fair enough, no worries.

As to Laing, as I recall he was a Scottish psychiatrist who declared that families destroy individuals, that people can be fixed by learning to hate their parents etc. Very popular in America, where psychoanalysis is seen as a method of 'fixing' people.

The significance Spack is alluding to I imagine is that the girlfriend is asking the car driver to reassess her sexual identity and conditioning. Whether Moore was a fan I don't know.

I'm wary of such discussions as per psychoanalysis, as I feel the idea of 'fixing' people is dangerous. People are not machines. Instead they should be allowed to contextualize their feelings and identity within a personal norm.

Societal convention can go and take a running jump.