Why has Brand New Day ....Not Worked Yet ?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Before the usual "YOU ANTI-BND BASTARD) furor starts , hear me out. Now its been a year and in that year sales have dropped by half and ASM has shed a lot of readers . Way more than DC Countdown and 52* had in this period. And ASM is a main title .

So whats went wrong ? Why hasn't BND been a sales juggernaunt and stayed in the 80,000-90,000 range like a book about B/C level characters did at one time ?

The following reasons :

1.) Brand New Day ... really ?


Ok the main hype of Brand New Day was all these new fangled ideas and directions for Peter Parker. So what have we saw within 50 issues ? We see a new version of the Green Goblin who discovers the secret , hidden lab which makes it the 80th person to do it. To make its different it was a female who becomes a new version of the Goblin and doesn't need a mask now to make it work.

Then we get Anti-Venom , who is a piss poor knockoff on a way to use Eddie Brock. Trust me , nothing gets more comedic jokes than the silly ANTI-VENOM . And its not good comedy , its the ole "how fucking lame are you to publish this ?" comedy.

Recently we get an issue where Peter Parker gets buried under a tunnel. And has to save everyone. Like the usual him getting buried by a building , rallying , costume in shreds and saving everyone as usual at the end deal .

In all of this , do you honestly feel its a BRAND NEW DAY ? Or is it SAME CRAP , DIFFERENT DAY ? Because thats how it feels . I mean why promote , hype and say things were gonna be so new and fresh , and yet do these new repeat villains and situations you claimed were old ?

Maybe its why people are leaping off . Maybe they don't wanna read the piss poor female Green Goblin you created now. Hell ....I won't even get into the decision on Anti-Venom. If you honestly set around a room and thought "Hey , we need a new cool name for Eddie Brock since we made Matt Gargon , Venom. Lets call him ANTI-VENOM..." then your sadder than I thought.

2.) The lack of love life .

The funniest deal that Quesada and others mentioned was how they couldn't do much with a married Peter Parker. Oh how the marriage hampered them. Oh how single Peter Parker would set the world on fire ! The stories they could tell with this single stallion.

So the score on single Peter Parker since Brand New Day ? Not one date , not one love interest , MJ barely shows up in an arc. For this stallion that was being hampered by this marriage , Peter hasn't done really much of anything . It makes the entire excuse Marvel floated a silly one.

I mean beyond the whole Lily tease which was revealed as her own plan to distract him , Peter Parker has seemingly become a catholic priest now.

But you can sense fear at Marvel to even give the character a love life beyond his supporting characters having it. Because how would fans react to the character ? How would they react to some new female taking MJ's place ? And that leads into her as a reason....


3.) Mary-Jane's lack of role ...

She was voted best supporting character in all kinds of online and magazine polls over the years. She spawned her own comic , has been a vocal point of cartoons and other forms of media. But according to Marvel now , she's not worth a shit.

Its been silly to think of a character thats more hated at the office than this character. They wanna send her to limbo world so people can get on with their lives. She showed up after taking a big part in a huge storyline , and to drive the point home on how they fucking hate the character...she does nothing . I mean absolutely nothing people. She helped save Spiderman , but did nothing after taking a big part in changing the course of Spiderman.

And its been shown that sales estimates after her appearnace ...4,000 dropped the book. Thats funny. There was a message there somewhere by readers on a level. Like... OK SCREW THIS ...and left.

If ASM #600 happens and MJ plays no role , or even tries to do something related to the big part she played , then thats an epic ball dropped some more. And it will show how bad she is hated in the office. :tongue:

4.) To many creator rotations , varients and sales stunt .


I've already said that the 1 thing I think hurts ASM is the creator moves off the book every 3-6-9 issues at a time. I really wish they had gotten Slott for 18+ issues , let him hand it to the next creator and so on.

Then there are the varients which are a sales ploy which has winded down slowly. The last gasp was the Obama varient which cashed in big , sales stunt . But guess what... no one stuck around. Its pretty funny to see that given how big the Obama ASM issue was , and no one stuck.

At this point the only hope is for good stories. Which really with lame Anti-Venom and female Goblins , its not exactly worked .


The last real big sales issue left is ASM #600. So what happens here ? Does Marvel manage to make people stick on the book ? Will they suddenly decide to make changeds to this BND world of Peter Parker and actually let him get outta nuetral he's stuck in ? Or will they decide to keep going , to hell with everyone ....and watch the book fall futher ?

And heres a lesson to be made ....at some point , do you really wanna have Brand New Day known more for the Obama issue or do you want it known for the good stories and all ?

[Arrogantcur]

Since I haven't linked to MGK's blog recently:

http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2008/11/26/brand-new-year/

And here's something I wrote in response to a comment on my LiveJournal:

What bugged me the most wasn't that he broke them up, but that he knew most of the fans didn't want it to happen and did it anyway. I've said this before and I'll say it again now: Marvel was a company that cared what its readers wanted back in the day. It put out comics with covers saying things like "Because YOU demanded it, the return of (character)!" When people wrote in and got a letter published where they asked for something, the response was usually "What do the rest of you think? Do you want this too? Let us know!"

Quesada? He apparently couldn't care less what his customers wanted. They'd tried to break up Peter and MJ twice before this and wound up getting them back together after fans screamed bloody murder about it. So I see Quesada breaking them up and keeping them broken up no matter what as a great big middle finger to all those fans whose opinions the company used to value.

[Grazzt]

Since I haven't linked to MGK's blog recently:

http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2008/11/26/brand-new-year/

And here's something I wrote in response to a comment on my LiveJournal:

Minor nitpick, when MGK was writing it's sales were still (combined) above the level preBND.

Now, (at least assuming ECWFan isn't exagerrating) they seem to be lower total, with every book doing only slighly better than Spectacular was.

[Venom Melendez]

Except it has more or less stayed in the same position and still making a good profit. It pretty much stays around the top 20 which isn't bad.

[Night Swordsman]

I have been buying Amazing since 1975, and i consider the books NOW as good as they were back then. Instead of three ongoing books that did not feel connected to each other..you got ONE book,and it feels like the events MATTER. You can moan and complain how they got here,but the book is a stronger and better and i thank marvel for trying this.

[friginator]

First off, there's no consisitant creative team. When it was 3 monthly books the core fanbase would buy all 3, but casual readers would only buy ASM, the important flagship book. On top of that the art is now inconsisitant and usually not great, the writing isn't anything special, and people don't want to buy a book that has no lasting repercussions on the universe in general. 52 and Countdown were important to the DC Universe, but whatever mundane events happen in ASM stay there.

[Village Idiot]

"We don;t have to explain this to you--it's magic!"

[Michael P]

It's all too safe.

[Major Comma]

It hasent worked because it was a bad idea in the first place.

[Pop Culture Addict]

I dunno. In my opinon BND has worked...and worked well. I mean, for the first time since the very early eighties do I feel like I'm actually reading a Spiderman comic for all the reasons I grew up loving Spiderman. The book has a strong supporting cast again and the team has created great new characters and villains. The twist reveal to the identity of Menace took me back to the good old days when Marv Wolfman was still writing the book. Sure, I miss MJ a lot, but I'll trade her for the return of the good ol' glory days of a Spiderman that I recognize and love then what Spidey had become under JMS...and I say that as a JMS fan.

[mr.brighteyes]

I don't agree that it hasn't worked, Unless I have an issue held or go pick it up when it comes out it is really hard to find a first printing of an issue. And I'm not talking about the Obama issue which was over hyped in my opinion.

Here is a few things I wish they would change. When BND first came into effect it was three issue arcs. Now we get four five and six issue arcs with interludes in between and breaks between the arc issues which is as bad as it being held up for event comics.

Go back to the three issue arcs. That was fun. If you want to do a single issue story like they did with the punisher a while back inbetween the three issue arcs thats fine but stick to three issues and done dealio. Also Let Slott write more and bring in some cool villains like over drive and the tracer guy from back during the other story line. He was old school cool like shocker. btw I loved the shocker issues. I also liked the team up issues. Spidy with wolvie and Spidey with Daredevil now we need spidy with torchy and spidy with the ff.

[Ian Boothby]

I dropped Spider-Man when this nonsense began. It's a drag, it's the book that got me into comics.

There are the obvious beefs with how things were done that have been gone over and over but here's one that just recently started to get to me.

Spider-Man is a science based hero. As silly as the science is, there was always a cause and effect. Someone took science too far or an accident happened and a hero or bad guy was created. It all worked with this nerdy kid whose real first love was science. Sometimes science helped him, sometimes it hurt him but it was what drove the stories. There were soap opera situations but his romantic and work problems were usually because he was trying to save the city from something that went wrong in a lab.

Then his biggest problem, the death of his Aunt is solved by the Devil's magic. It's done to spite God. God now exists in Spider-Man's science based life. He's no longer married because God loved his marriage so much and the Devil made a deal with him to get rid of it.

Peter doesn't go to church. Peter has never outright stated his faith. Peter has never overtly shown any real religious leanings. But now God is part of his origin story. The whole Spider-Totem thing was off tone but it was a sidebar, this just feels completely off the mark.

To me God and religion doesn't have a place in Spider-Man's origin or any major plot developments. Since this was the biggest plot development since Spider-Man began it taints everything.

[Frank]

It's all too safe.

Good answer.

And i'm not kidding. Spider-Man comics right now almost exist in a separate parallel Universe/imprint where nothing bad can happen. Nothing matters.

[Arrogantcur]

Good answer.

And i'm not kidding. Spider-Man comics right now almost exist in a separate parallel Universe/imprint where nothing bad can happen. Nothing matters.

Is Flash Thompson losing his legs the exception to that? :confused:

...Sure, I miss MJ a lot, but I'll trade her for the return of the good ol' glory days of a Spiderman that I recognize and love then what Spidey had become under JMS...and I say that as a JMS fan.

Yeah, but there you don't need to trade one thing for the other. You can have the ol' glory days and still have MJ. Wanna know how? Skip all the OMD/BND stupidity and just replace JMS with Slott.

[LewisH]

With Amazing Spiderman coming out 3 times a month at a price of $3.99, that's just too much for many people. I was going to check out the last part of the current arc since the preview on-line looked interesting but the price made me balk. I'll wait a few month and buy a used TPB instead.

[Arrogantcur]

With Amazing Spiderman coming out 3 times a month at a price of $3.99, that's just too much for many people. I was going to check out the last part of the current arc since the preview on-line looked interesting but the price made me balk. I'll wait a few month and buy a used TPB instead.

Heh. I find the possibility that a move Quesada probably made in order to boost sales of ASM so he could then say "Since we got rid of the marriage, we've been selling more copies," is actually hurting sales to be quite humourous.

[Alan Lynch]

I dropped Spider-Man when this nonsense began. It's a drag, it's the book that got me into comics.

There are the obvious beefs with how things were done that have been gone over and over but here's one that just recently started to get to me.

Spider-Man is a science based hero. As silly as the science is, there was always a cause and effect. Someone took science too far or an accident happened and a hero or bad guy was created. It all worked with this nerdy kid whose real first love was science. Sometimes science helped him, sometimes it hurt him but it was what drove the stories. There were soap opera situations but his romantic and work problems were usually because he was trying to save the city from something that went wrong in a lab.

Then his biggest problem, the death of his Aunt is solved by the Devil's magic. It's done to spite God. God now exists in Spider-Man's science based life. He's no longer married because God loved his marriage so much and the Devil made a deal with him to get rid of it.

Peter doesn't go to church. Peter has never outright stated his faith. Peter has never overtly shown any real religious leanings. But now God is part of his origin story. The whole Spider-Totem thing was off tone but it was a sidebar, this just feels completely off the mark.

To me God and religion doesn't have a place in Spider-Man's origin or any major plot developments. Since this was the biggest plot development since Spider-Man began it taints everything.
Wow, it's like you raided my brain.

But yeah, I have no idea how well Spider-Man is doing now because I haven't bought any of his books since - I think - one or two issues of The Other storyline. Which was pish.

[Samy]

Is Flash Thompson losing his legs the exception to that? :confused:
It'll be reset sooner or later.

What TASM is now is a book where everything gets set back to status quo sooner or later.

Mark my words, in 10 years Flash will be walking the same as he ever was.

So why should I bother reading or investing myself in any of it?

[Arrogantcur]

I dropped Spider-Man when this nonsense began. It's a drag, it's the book that got me into comics.

There are the obvious beefs with how things were done that have been gone over and over but here's one that just recently started to get to me.

Spider-Man is a science based hero. As silly as the science is, there was always a cause and effect. Someone took science too far or an accident happened and a hero or bad guy was created. It all worked with this nerdy kid whose real first love was science. Sometimes science helped him, sometimes it hurt him but it was what drove the stories. There were soap opera situations but his romantic and work problems were usually because he was trying to save the city from something that went wrong in a lab.

Then his biggest problem, the death of his Aunt is solved by the Devil's magic. It's done to spite God. God now exists in Spider-Man's science based life. He's no longer married because God loved his marriage so much and the Devil made a deal with him to get rid of it.

Peter doesn't go to church. Peter has never outright stated his faith. Peter has never overtly shown any real religious leanings. But now God is part of his origin story. The whole Spider-Totem thing was off tone but it was a sidebar, this just feels completely off the mark.

To me God and religion doesn't have a place in Spider-Man's origin or any major plot developments. Since this was the biggest plot development since Spider-Man began it taints everything.

I agree with this too. I didn't want the marriage broken up, but if it HAD to be broken up then it would've been best to at least do it in a way that made sense. Getting Mephisto involved for the reasons he was involved, and having a big magic spell cast which changed the past? That does not make sense.

It'll be reset sooner or later.

What TASM is now is a book where everything gets set back to status quo sooner or later.

Mark my words, in 10 years Flash will be walking the same as he ever was.

So why should I bother reading or investing myself in any of it?

The sad thing is that you're probably right. It's not that I don't want Flash up and around again, but what we have seen so far is a changing of the status quo in really huge ways with the changing of the EIC. First we had Shooter put MJ and Peter together. Later we had Quesada pull them apart because he didn't like what Shooter had done. Like you say, sooner or later we're probably going to see a new EIC at Marvel who didn't like what Quesada did and that person will put the two back together. On and on.

To me, that's a stupid reason for making changes. If you're EIC, you shouldn't ask "What do I want to see in a Spidey book? I think I'll tell the writers to do that." No, what you should ask is "What do the current crop of fans enjoy seeing in a Spidey book? I should tell the writers to do that." If by some crazy-ass miracle I got to be EIC of Marvel 10 years from now and most of the fans liked Peter single? I would not arrange for him to get married to MJ, even though that would be my preference.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

It'll be reset sooner or later.

What TASM is now is a book where everything gets set back to status quo sooner or later.

Mark my words, in 10 years Flash will be walking the same as he ever was.

So why should I bother reading or investing myself in any of it?

You realize you could essentially say this bout almost every mainstream superhero comic, right?

This is hardly exclusive to ASM.

[PatrickG]

They need guts.

Have MJ get pregnant and marry some other guy and go through painstaking detail to establish that the guy isn't a super-villain or a jerk.

Give Peter some serious new drama on both fronts of his life.

Spider-man books should have a "tie your stomach in a knot" component.

Off the top of my head:

Peter should lose MJ forever, walk in on May and JJJ in bed and have to take a real blue collar job to make ends meet in light of the economy.

In turn, Spider-man should have to deal with a corporate religion being based upon him, fight one of Uncle Ben's old best friends, get an enemy who is 6 years old (think of the bad publicity when images surface of Spidey punching a kid), get handcuffed to Norman Osborn for a week (experimental HAMMER cuffs with no key) and I maintain that we really need a story where Spider-man is the only super-hero left behind on earth during a "crossover" type event and Galactus shows up.

[Sean Walsh]

I've enjoyed the BND I've read - New Ways to Die, and what I've seen/heard about Character Assassination (it's on its way to me via eBay soon).

But I've questioned how these stories couldn't have worked if Peter was still married to MJ, since that was the impetus of BND in the first place (telling stories without that constraint).

[Village Idiot]

Note to those who are guilty of this:

Spider-Man, not Spiderman. If you truly loved the character, you'd get this much right, at least. Even the spellchecker sees Spiderman as wrong.

[Nick Soapdish]

You realize you could essentially say this bout almost every mainstream superhero comic, right?

This is hardly exclusive to ASM.

Right.

The reason to read and get invested in a character is first, to enjoy the stories that are being told, not out of the hope of what is to come.

That being said, I've had trouble enjoying some of my older comics after subsequent events or revelations. It can put those events in a different light. For example, I'm glad that I wasn't ever a Gwen Stacy fan.

[DarkCrisis]

OMD was horrible. Spidy making a deal with "the devil" ruined the caracter for me. Peter couldn't "handle the guilt". He didn't do it to save May, he did it to appease his guilt.

Plus, I loved his marriage. MJ rocks.

I havent touched a spidy comic since OMD.

[Linkara]

and I maintain that we really need a story where Spider-man is the only super-hero left behind on earth during a "crossover" type event and Galactus shows up.

Wasn't there a Marvel Adventures story where Spidey confronted Galactus with the Ultimate Nullifier, but Galactus doesn't believe the bluff in someone not on Reed Richards' level... but then Spidey activates it? :biggrin:

[jesse_custer]

From what I've heard about it, Brand New Day sounds like a lot of editing and not much writing.

[PatrickG]

Wasn't there a Marvel Adventures story where Spidey confronted Galactus with the Ultimate Nullifier, but Galactus doesn't believe the bluff in someone not on Reed Richards' level... but then Spidey activates it? :biggrin:

That sounds classic. My take is pretty different from that but that sounds cool.

What I've always wanted to see was more in the vein of what somebody like Spider-man would do when faced with overwhelming odds and the earth riding on his actions.

I'd love to see him break into the Avenger's Mansion and try to use Tony Stark's spare armor and break a few of his enemies out of jail to send up against Galactus and just go for this "everything and the kitchen sink" approach to a threat like Galactus. How far does a fairly ordinary hero with a conscience compromise and what kinds of INSANE risks does he take if he's earth's only defense?

[Stressfactor]

Did anyone read the Jim Butcher (Dresden Files fame) Spider-Man book The Darkest Hours? Damn. I mean, just... damn. Okay, sure, it plays with some of JMS's Morlun stuff and it involves mystical stuff because, face it, it's Butcher's strong suit) but it has one of the BEST appearance of Doctor Strange AND....

Butcher GOT IT. He got how Peter was, essentially, a "people person" and, most of all, he perfectly captured MJ and Peter's relationship AND he captured MJ as well -- her sense of humor and her playfulness which a LOT of writers threw out the window in order to try to create "angsty drama". Butcher understood that you didn't need to have a character be angsty and whiney to create drama.

It was a fun, creative, story the showed just how wonderful a character MJ could be when put in the hands of the right writer. It seems to me the problem is that you've had a lot of writers who wanted to write SPIDER-MAN but no MJ and therefore felt that the character was foisted upon them and resented it and/or didn't know what to do with her.

In all acutally the trick was to simply NOT think about MJ. I'm convinced that if anyone focused on writing Peter right then the rest of the characters would come along fine for the ride but too many writers let their shorts get in a knot about writing the REST of the cast rather than just worrying about Peter first and formost.

[Tien Long]

Before I go into my own personal beliefs regarding BND, what really surprises me is just the wide range of responses people have been having over it. I don't know about you, but I'm really fascinated that in between the "Anti-BND" and the "Pro-BND" factions, there is just this HUGE spectrum of opinions and ideas. For instance, some people are "Anti-BND" with pro-"Peter regaining his secret identity was a good thing" tendencies. Seriously, i feel that this could be the stuff of a political theory class.

As for me, BND has been one of the reasons why I haven't been enthusiastic about collecting comics anymore. Truth be told, after the New Avengers arc in ASM, I really wasn't buying Spider-Man, since I had hoped that after Civil War, Spider-Man would become a bit more focused and less a part of other tie-in events. BND accomplished that, but in a way i never really wanted.

The main conflict I have with BND is the marriage and in this regard, I admit freely, I'm totally stubborn about it. I don't care how good the writing or the art is, I don't care about how many rave reviews people give the title, every single BND issue just a reminds that Pete isn't married to MJ anymore, and I can't stand that at all. Furthermore, I'm a little confused as to why some allies and villains had to forget about Spider-Man's secret identity. What made Spider-Man's interactions with those particular characters so great was b/c of that knowledge. The comraderie w/ Daredevil and the hatred w/Green Goblin felt real b/c of the mutual knowledge of each other's identities. Indeed, Norman Osborn just seems to be a generic villain to me now. I don't see Norman Osborn as an interesting or worthwhile villain or as the head of the "Dark Reign" b/c he doesn't seem to have that personal connection with Peter anymore. I mean, wasn't it b/c Norman found out Peter's identity that caused him to kidnap Gwen Stacy in the first place?

For all of my ranting and raving, however, I've learned that there seem to be many supporters for the title. I think since BND there have been numerous sell-outs and second and third printings. Though I felt utterly depressed upon reading about the new status quo, I read in the letters section of ASM that a man who was going through a rough patch in his life was able to pull himself out b/c of BND. Also, it seems in every article and interview, EVERY SINGLE COMIC BOOK WRITER IN THE WORLD hated not only the marriage but MJ as well. For me, a big fan of both, I was disparaged to say the least.

In the end, I don't know what will happen to the title in the future. All i know is that to me, Spider-Man doesn't feel like Spider-Man whatsoever.

[Spackling Compound]

I still think the whole "old aunt" versus "wife" trade off was pathetic and sounded like a "fuck you, fanboy" message. In other words: "Spider-Man is one of you. He won't have a hot wife but he'll always have an old, doting woman who will look over him while he labors at a crappy irrelevant job."

In the future, he'll gain weight, have OCD and start his own photo-journal blog with lots of LOLZ KATZ.

[NickThompson]

I think the thing with BND is that it's hard to really say what the problem is. Going thrice-monthly would probably send sales lower over higher, plus the fact that we are were the book would be three years into it's run instead of a year, plus the fact that JMS is a much bigger pull than anyone on the book now, plus general BND issues.

With Amazing Spiderman coming out 3 times a month at a price of $3.99, that's just too much for many people. I was going to check out the last part of the current arc since the preview on-line looked interesting but the price made me balk. I'll wait a few month and buy a used TPB instead.
It's generally $2.99.

[Arrogantcur]

I've enjoyed the BND I've read - New Ways to Die, and what I've seen/heard about Character Assassination (it's on its way to me via eBay soon).

But I've questioned how these stories couldn't have worked if Peter was still married to MJ, since that was the impetus of BND in the first place (telling stories without that constraint).

Yes. I thought that the primary objection most writers had to the marriage was that it limited what they could do with Peter. Well, now he's free, and we've not seen him get back with Felicia Hardy or anything (and I would personally not be completely nauseated by that, because even though I like MJ I also like Felicia). So...what happened here, exactly? Did they break them up so Peter could date again, or did they just hate MJ's presence THAT MUCH?

Any creator who disliked the marriage feel like shedding some light on the thought process involved? I know some of you drop by YABS every now and then, without naming names.

Note to those who are guilty of this:

Spider-Man, not Spiderman. If you truly loved the character, you'd get this much right, at least. Even the spellchecker sees Spiderman as wrong.

I don't make that mistake, but I can see why people who don't follow the character might. Because there is not hyphen in Superman, none in Batman, Wonder Woman is two unhyphenated words, etc. Even in the Marvel Universe you have Wonder Man, Iron Man, Invisible Woman, etc.

I havent touched a spidy comic since OMD.

I have, but they have all been old ones I bought years before OMD. :wink:

Also, @Nick: the cover of Amazing Spider-Girl #30, which I bought earlier, says "$3.99 U.S."

EDIT: Oops, never mind. I just glanced around at some other comics lying around this place, and THOSE are priced at $2.99 U.S. I guess since it's the last issue of ASG (I think they said something about this one being double-sized, although it doesn't say that on the cover) it costs more.

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

'Peter Parker has seemingly become a Catholic Priest....'

He's dating boys now??? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Arrogantcur]

'Peter Parker has seemingly become a Catholic Priest....'

He's dating boys now??? :eek: :eek: :eek:

No, but he came close to dating a transsexual (http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2008/01/14/it-was-either-this-or-interpretive-dance/). (Read it. You'll see. :tongue: )