Is Mind Control An Actionable Offense

[darknessatnoon]

In the early days of the X-Men, Professor Xavier was constantly mind-controlling bystanders. He erased the memories of Beast's family. He froze the lynch mob that was hunting Kurt in their tracks. Emma Frost once gave protesters outside the X-Mansion mass orgasms.

The brain is a delicate organ and tampering with it can lead to extreme trauma. For example, the Scarlet Witch was made to forget about her children. When reminded of them, she went completely bonkers. Imagine how difficult it was for Edna McCoy to remember her son existed again. It's not as if she could gain revenge on the professor by altering reality.

The only telepath to actively pursue the healing possibilities of telepathy and telekinesis would be Nate Grey, who used his powers to cure diabetes and headaches.

Do you think criminal or civil charges can be levied against vigilante telepaths for mind tampering? Can Psylocke be sued for all the damage she caused to other telepaths during the Psi-War?

I would especially appreciate the legal counsel of Twisted Bliss here.

[Twisted Bliss]

In the early days of the X-Men, Professor Xavier was constantly mind-controlling bystanders. He erased the memories of Beast's family. He froze the lynch mob that was hunting Kurt in their tracks. Emma Frost once gave protesters outside the X-Mansion mass orgasms.

The brain is a delicate organ and tampering with it can lead to extreme trauma. For example, the Scarlet Witch was made to forget about her children. When reminded of them, she went completely bonkers. Imagine how difficult it was for Edna McCoy to remember her son existed again. It's not as if she could gain revenge on the professor by altering reality.

The only telepath to actively pursue the healing possibilities of telepathy and telekinesis would be Nate Grey, who used his powers to cure diabetes and headaches.

Do you think criminal or civil charges can be levied against vigilante telepaths for mind tampering? Can Psylocke be sued for all the damage she caused to other telepaths during the Psi-War?

I would especially appreciate the legal counsel of Twisted Bliss here.

Well I agree that these should in principle be punishable offences under the law, however the problem lies in the evidence and how one might measure the invasion & mind manipulation.

Without meaning to go into the minutae with offences such as physical rape there are physical evidence that can be used to verify the crime. With mind rape that physical evidence would by the very nature of the crime be impossible.

Until humanity was able to install psi monitors, or actively had a team of psi-police/investigators then this would be all but impossible.

Perhaps one would be better pressed to argue for suitable policing of the psi's ? How one might monitor and contain any insurgent behaviour.

[darknessatnoon]

Well I agree that these should in principle be punishable offences under the law, however the problem lies in the evidence and how one might measure the invasion & mind manipulation.

Without meaning to go into the minutae with offences such as physical rape there are physical evidence that can be used to verify the crime. With mind rape that physical evidence would by the very nature of the crime be impossible.

Until humanity was able to install psi monitors, or actively had a team of psi-police/investigators then this would be all but impossible.

Perhaps one would be better pressed to argue for suitable policing of the psi's ? How one might monitor and contain any insurgent behaviour.

Would you suggest lobotomies? Camps?

Also, can Emma Frost be charged with stock fraud since telepathic eavesdropping is how she amassed her fortune?

[Seres]

Don't forget that poor old Isolationist. Telepathy ruined his life. He should totally go and sue the X-Men. Sentinels failed to defeat them, but perhaps extended litigation could.

[timbox]

The only telepath to actively pursue the healing possibilities of telepathy and telekinesis would be Nate Grey, who used his powers to cure diabetes and headaches.


This Nate Grey lust is getting out of hand.

Mind controllers are smarter and better than everyone. They should be allowed to use their powers to improve others. Memory blocks are used to help. The fault for any evil done while mind controlled should be placed on the mind controlee. Weak-mindedness is to blame and should be the actionable offense here.

[darknessatnoon]

Don't forget that poor old Isolationist. Telepathy ruined his life. He should totally go and sue the X-Men. Sentinels failed to defeat them, but perhaps extended litigation could.

I actually think litigation is the best way to put these people down. They rely on their fortunes and their never ending credit. Without the Shiar to subsidize them anymore, the wallet is exactly where to hit them.

[darknessatnoon]

This Nate Grey lust is getting out of hand.

Mind controllers are smarter and better than everyone. They should be allowed to use their powers to improve others. Memory blocks are used to help. The fault for any evil done while mind controlled should be placed on the mind controlee. Weak-mindedness is to blame and should be the actionable offense here.

Keep your Nietzschian/Apoclyptian rhetoric to yourself. We're talking LAW here, not Social Darwinisim.

[Brian Cronin]

It's definitely assault.

Proof is a problem, though.

-Brian

[Prodigy55]

I'd let Nate Grey into my mind.

[XPac]

In the early days of the X-Men, Professor Xavier was constantly mind-controlling bystanders. He erased the memories of Beast's family. He froze the lynch mob that was hunting Kurt in their tracks. Emma Frost once gave protesters outside the X-Mansion mass orgasms.

The brain is a delicate organ and tampering with it can lead to extreme trauma. For example, the Scarlet Witch was made to forget about her children. When reminded of them, she went completely bonkers. Imagine how difficult it was for Edna McCoy to remember her son existed again. It's not as if she could gain revenge on the professor by altering reality.

The only telepath to actively pursue the healing possibilities of telepathy and telekinesis would be Nate Grey, who used his powers to cure diabetes and headaches.

Do you think criminal or civil charges can be levied against vigilante telepaths for mind tampering? Can Psylocke be sued for all the damage she caused to other telepaths during the Psi-War?

I would especially appreciate the legal counsel of Twisted Bliss here.

Practically speaking, it would be very difficult to levy criminal or civil Charges against a telepath since I imagine it would be very hard to actually prove.

There's no physical evidence... it sort of falls under the perfect crime category.

I do think in theory one should be able to press charges against someone for doing that. But I wouldn't want to be the guy trying to prosecute it.

[darknessatnoon]

Practically speaking, it would be very difficult to levy criminal or civil Charges against a telepath since I imagine it would be very hard to actually prove.

There's no physical evidence... it sort of falls under the perfect crime category.

I do think in theory one should be able to press charges against someone for doing that. But I wouldn't want to be the guy trying to prosecute it.

Didn't Empire State U have a Department of Psi Studies? Couldn't expert witnesses be brought in? What about state employed forensic psychics?

[timbox]

Keep your Nietzschian/Apoclyptian rhetoric to yourself. We're talking LAW here, not Social Darwinisim.

It’s all about level of influence. If I tell some random stranger to do something stupid, I can hardly be held accountable. If I hold great influence over someone, should it be any different? For instance, maigen will do anything I say without any mind control involved. Should I be punished if she murders someone to please me? Mind control is just about having irresistible influence over someone.

[Twisted Bliss]

Would you suggest lobotomies? Camps?

Also, can Emma Frost be charged with stock fraud since telepathic eavesdropping is how she amassed her fortune?

On all counts you provide physical proof then the legislature can respond. The law is more often than not reactive. It requires an event to occur before someone considers that there should be a law that forbades the individual citizen from doing it.

With Emma's crime the SEC would be better placed to investigate, however without physical evidence to verify the crime they'd have more luck tracking down the Madoff monies.

[lockerogue]

It’s all about level of influence. If I tell some random stranger to do something stupid, I can hardly be held accountable. If I hold great influence over someone, should it be any different? For instance, maigen will do anything I say without any mind control involved. Should I be punished if she murders someone to please me? Mind control is just about having irresistible influence over someone.

You leave maigen out of this!

[AcesX1X]

first you have to successfully organize the PR on telepathy as a concept in the first place.

i'm not even sure everyone in the marvel universe believes in telepathy. public opinion has to accept things like super-strength and aliens or whatever, but telepathy? i would say that unless someone has the telepathy or has experienced it themselves, even the marvel citizens would have to be skeptical.

so, the challenge would to be not only to get the marvel public onboard with the concept of telepathy, but to also get the marvel public riding on a wave of anti-telepathic sentiment.

from those sparks, you could fan raging fires of accusations, autobiographical cash-ins on the theme, and finally, controversy through the persecution and conviction of said telepaths.

[timbox]

It's definitely assault.

Proof is a problem, though.

-Brian

What planet are you people from? I've order Cronin to do several questionable things. That does not mean he had no choice but to do them. Even if he did do them, I doubt that Jonah Weiland would let him off the hook for saying “timbox made me do it!”

[darknessatnoon]

It’s all about level of influence. If I tell some random stranger to do something stupid, I can hardly be held accountable. If I hold great influence over someone, should it be any different? For instance, maigen will do anything I say without any mind control involved. Should I be punished if she murders someone to please me? Mind control is just about having irresistible influence over someone.

Charisma is different than mind control. Also, Starfox was charged for rape because of the use of his eros charisma on unwitting victims.

[darknessatnoon]

first you have to successfully organize the PR on telepathy as a concept in the first place.

i'm not even sure everyone in the marvel universe believes in telepathy. public opinion has to accept things like super-strength and aliens or whatever, but telepathy? i would say that unless someone has the telepathy or has experienced it themselves, even the marvel citizens would have to be skeptical.

so, the challenge would to be not only to get the marvel public onboard with the concept of telepathy, but to also get the marvel public riding on a wave of anti-telepathic sentiment.

from those sparks, you could fan raging fires of accusations, autobiographical cash-ins on the theme, and finally, controversy through the persecution and conviction of said telepaths.

Well, there were several successful prosecutions based on repressed memory syndrome which was discovered/invented in the 80s.

[timbox]

Charisma is different than mind control. Also, Starfox was charged for rape because of the use of his eros charisma on unwitting victims.

This is not only about charisma. What about a military commander's power over his subordinates? Do not question orders, and all that nonsense. What about illegal orders? All those soldiers charged for abusing prisoners in Guantanamo Bay did not go free even though they may have been ordered to do these things.

[Prodigy55]

Can a high-level telepath hid their actions from a low-level telepath? Like say Emma Frost were to tinker with someone's mind, would some random TP be able to tell what she did?

[darknessatnoon]

This is not only about charisma. What about a military commander's power over his subordinates? Do not question orders, and all that nonsense. What about illegal orders? All those soldiers charged for abusing prisoners in Guantanamo Bay did not go free even though they may have been ordered to do these things.

That's because they had violated their ethics code. None of that applies to Edna McCoy being forced to forget her son.

[Seres]

You leave maigen out of this!

maigen no longer works for you, timbox! She escaped your attempt at assimilation and now runs free.

And if charm is not part of telepathy, does this let the late and dearly missed Wallflower off the hook?

[darknessatnoon]

maigen no longer works for you, timbox! She escaped your attempt at assimilation and now runs free.

And if charm is not part of telepathy, does this let the late and dearly missed Wallflower off the hook?

Pheremones exist in science. Wallflower and her gorgeous father are easily prosecuted.

[Twisted Bliss]

Well, there were several successful prosecutions based on repressed memory syndrome which was discovered/invented in the 80s.

However all of them rely upon so-called 'expert' testimony. They have in the main be over-turned because of the unreliablity of the evidence as put forth.

[timbox]

maigen no longer works for you, timbox! She escaped your attempt at assimilation and now runs free.


You are correct. Forget what I said earlier in regards to maigen. I can discuss this no further.

[Prodigy55]

And if charm is not part of telepathy, does this let the late and dearly missed Wallflower off the hook?

No, Wallflower caused the riot that killed poor Sophie Cuckoo.

[Twisted Bliss]

Pheremones exist in science. Wallflower and her gorgeous father are easily prosecuted.

Now if you can prove the behavioural effects the pheromones have upon a human. Whether it removes fee will. And then you have to prove that someone is responsible for the manufacturing and controlling of the pheromones.

Then its not technically mind control, its intoxication.

[timbox]

That's because they had violated their ethics code. None of that applies to Edna McCoy being forced to forget her son.

Forced by whose wishes? It still comes back to ethics. Suppose Edna was disgusted by the very thought of mothering Beast, should she be allowed to have him erased from her mind? And if she requested this procedure, would Professor X be held accountable? Perhaps this is a matter for signatures and legal contracts.

[darknessatnoon]

Now if you can prove the behavioural effects the pheromones have upon a human. Whether it removes fee will. And then you have to prove that someone is responsible for the manufacturing and controlling of the pheromones.

Then its not technically mind control, its intoxication.

True - date rape.

[AcesX1X]

we'll also need to secure a valid telepath who would not mind making deliberate offenses to prove the point.

i'm envisioning particular circumstances. forcing beloved celebrities to kill themselves, inducing mass hysteria....altering memories of political figures...

[timbox]

Whether it removes fee will.

Free will or weak will? The weak do the bidding of the strong; this is how the world has always existed. Now we want to punish the strong? Ridiculous!

[darknessatnoon]

Forced by whose wishes? It still comes back to ethics. Suppose Edna was disgusted by the very thought of mothering Beast, should she be allowed to have him erased from her mind? And if she requested this procedure, would Professor X be held accountable? Perhaps this is a matter for signatures and legal contracts.

I am not sure you can contract to allow someone to harm you. I don't think the law would recognize the contract's validity. If supervillains like the Controller and Purple Man can be jailed, I don't see why Xavier gets off without even a slap on the wrist.

[Seres]

Based on the previews for the next issue of X-Men Legacy, does Rogue
have a case against Mystique, now that mummy has taken control over her body?

[MartinRedmond]

from those sparks, you could fan raging fires of accusations, autobiographical cash-ins on the theme, and finally, controversy through the persecution and conviction of said telepaths.

AHah, that would be great.

[darknessatnoon]

Based on the previews for the next issue of X-Men Legacy, does Rogue
have a case against Mystique, now that mummy has taken control over her body?

I think given Rogue's repeated violations of others that she and Mystique's mind and Mystique's brain damaged body should be sharing a jail cell.

[timbox]

I am not sure you can contract to allow someone to harm you. I don't think the law would recognize the contract's validity. If supervillains like the Controller and Purple Man can be jailed, I don't see why Xavier gets off without even a slap on the wrist.

Doctor Jack Kevorkian would disagree. He was eventually punished for assisting with free will. Maybe we should change the laws of Do Not Resuscitate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Not_Resuscitate) while we're stripping away freedoms.

[darknessatnoon]

Doctor Jack Kevorkian would disagree. He was eventually punished for assisting with free will. Maybe we should change the laws of Do Not Resuscitate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Not_Resuscitate) while we're stripping away freedoms.

DNR is not the same thing as Assisted Suicide. You are flailing!

[AcesX1X]

Doctor Jack Kevorkian would disagree. He was eventually punished for assisting with free will. Maybe we should change the laws of Do Not Resuscitate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Not_Resuscitate) while we're stripping away freedoms.

in the cases of DNR's, you have to present the actual document or consent to treatment is automatically implied.

i wonder if this caveeat could be stretched to the topic at-hand.

[Seres]

I think given Rogue's repeated violations of others that she and Mystique's mind and Mystique's brain damaged body should be sharing a jail cell.

If Rogue, let's say, kills Professor Xavier and is arrested, could she claim that it was Mystique's doing, given that Mystique is a wanted terrorist and Rogue isn't? Would this at least get her moved to a more comfortable asylum?

[darknessatnoon]

If Rogue, let's say, kills Professor Xavier and is arrested, could she claim that it was Mystique's doing, given that Mystique is a wanted terrorist and Rogue isn't? Would this at least get her moved to a more comfortable asylum?

Wasn't Rogue a member of Mystique's terrorist organization in the past? The Avengers have her activities on file. I don't even remember when it was that she stopped being a "wanted criminal." Perhaps never.

[timbox]

DNR is not the same thing as Assisted Suicide. You are flailing!

How is it not? I’m sure Dr. Kevorkian had all sorts of documentation that had to be filled out.

If I ever become a sheep, it’s my fault, not the wolf’s.

[darknessatnoon]

If I ever become a sheep, it’s my fault, not the wolf’s.

I'd like to see if you still believe that after you meet your cell mate.

[timbox]

I know it's fashionable in America to blame everyone else for your problems, we should move past that.

[jarrod]

The only telepath to actively pursue the healing possibilities of telepathy and telekinesis would be Nate Grey, who used his powers to cure diabetes and headaches.
Jean and Rachel used subatomic telekinesis to protect themselves (but not their "best freinds" Lorna Dane or Kitty Pryde) from the common cold. Typically selfish women!

Ray did "heal" her deadbeat stepdad and her underage boyfriend's mom that one time though.

[darknessatnoon]

Ray did "heal" her deadbeat stepdad and her underage boyfriend's mom that one time though.

There are so many levels of interpretation implicit in your statement that it took me a minute to remember what the hell you were talking about.

[jarrod]

There are so many levels of interpretation implicit in your statement that it took me a minute to remember what the hell you were talking about.
Stay sharp.

Jean and Rachel do seem to have a bit of propensity for genetic tampering with their teke though, even on themselves (Atlantean Sara/Jean, Hound Sue/Scott, R'chel). How would courts interpret genetic violation?

[darknessatnoon]

Stay sharp.

Jean and Rachel do seem to have a bit of propensity for genetic tampering with their teke though, even on themselves (Atlantean Sara/Jean, Hound Sue/Scott, R'chel). How would courts interpret genetic violation?

Rachel should be prosecuted for fraud, pretending she's Scott's daughter.

[jarrod]

Rachel should be prosecuted for fraud, pretending she's Scott's daughter.
She even fooled Sinister. No wonder he let Mystique put him down, the shame must have been overwhelming.

[just another user]

Telepathy is illegal in Scotland under section 47 of the Civic Government act.

[timbox]

Is that the Witchcraft section? Scotland needs to stop living in the past.

[just another user]

Source: Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982, Section 47

Offence: Any person who urinates or defecates in such circumstances as to cause, or to be likely to cause, annoyance to any other person shall be guilty of an offence, and liable on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £50. Also, no telepathy

[timbox]

Telepathy does not cause annoyance. You owe me £50.

[just another user]

Telepathy does not cause annoyance. You owe me £50.

Tell that to the heels and marks that endlessly complain about Claremont tropes.

[darknessatnoon]

£50

Is that Monopoly money?

[jarrod]

Telepathy is illegal in Scotland under section 47 of the Civic Government act.
It's all that Egyptian's fault, isn't it?

[darknessatnoon]

It's all that Egyptian's fault, isn't it?

Amahl Farouk and Karma are a perfect case. Do you know how much obesity probably cost her in medical bills and couches?

[The Thunderbird]

Is that the Witchcraft section? Scotland needs to stop living in the past.
Red hair and demonic possession were treated as signs of witchcraft back then.

[just another user]

Red hair and demonic possession were treated as signs of witchcraft back then.

Ugh, stop slagging off Jean Grey

[ExodusCloak]

That's probably where the saying beaten like a red-headed stepchild comes from.

[AnthonyJ]

Based on the previews for the next issue of X-Men Legacy, does Rogue
have a case against Mystique, now that mummy has taken control over her body?
Not even close. That's not Mystique taking over her body, that's the memory image of Mystique she has in her head, and that memory image isn't a person. Unless Mystique forced Rogue to take that memory image, which I don't believe is the case, she has zero responsibility for what that image does..

[AnthonyJ]

Jean and Rachel do seem to have a bit of propensity for genetic tampering with their teke though, even on themselves (Atlantean Sara/Jean, Hound Sue/Scott, R'chel). How would courts interpret genetic violation?
Done to yourself? In general, not actionable unless you're doing it to assist with some other crime. Done to a willing other person, it's probably practicing medicine without a license and possibly reckless endangerment as well, plus possible civil liabilities if anything goes wrong. Done to an unwilling other person, add aggravated assault to the above.

Just about any power, used against an unwilling subject, is aggravated assault; telepathy is no exception. It's likely additional laws would exist in any world where telepathy was actually known to exist. Used against a willing subject, telepathic memory alteration and the like might count as medical procedures in which case it's basically the same as genetic alteration. Telepathy is also likely to fall afoul of various sorts of privacy laws.

[darknessatnoon]

Not even close. That's not Mystique taking over her body, that's the memory image of Mystique she has in her head, and that memory image isn't a person. Unless Mystique forced Rogue to take that memory image, which I don't believe is the case, she has zero responsibility for what that image does..

It's a moot point. It's self-defense.

[sneggz]

This Nate Grey lust is getting out of hand..

Bah. There is no such thing as too much Nate Grey love.

[AnthonyJ]

It's a moot point. It's self-defense.
Actually, that's not really a clear situation. Even if we assume that we're dealing with an entity that counts as a person to start with, the specific rights of disembodied psychic parasites with respect to their host bodies is not exactly explored law.

[Waterlily]

I am not sure you can contract to allow someone to harm you. I don't think the law would recognize the contract's validity. If supervillains like the Controller and Purple Man can be jailed, I don't see why Xavier gets off without even a slap on the wrist.

A while back a man posted on the internet that he was seeking a young man for "slaughter and consumption". Somebody answered his request. (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/world/europe/cannibal-case-to-go-to-germanys-highest-court-13425621.html)

Even though the victim consented to be dinner, the cannibal is still in jail.



Also, is telepathy something beyond an extreme form of will power? Is there something happening on a biological level and not just an emotional/mental one? As I understand it, telepathically brainwashing someone is more than convincing them to do your bidding. Telepaths forcibly manipulate the chemical and electrical going-ons in a persons brain.

So, instead of using their wit to convince their victims to do their bidding, they inject the equivalent of psychic roofies into their brains to make them pliable.
I have insomnia!

[darknessatnoon]

Actually, that's not really a clear situation. Even if we assume that we're dealing with an entity that counts as a person to start with, the specific rights of disembodied psychic parasites with respect to their host bodies is not exactly explored law.

I meant that whatever Rogue/Mystique does in that situation is self-defense. And anyway, they're fighting holograms not real people.

[timbox]

You people are delusional.

[AnotherWord]

You people are delusional.

In what way are they delusional? I'm not sure how it's possible to view telepathy as it's portrayed in Marvel mutants as a dynamic that's even remotely similar to ordinary interpersonal relationships. A strong-willed, charismatic, higher-ranking, or otherwise "powerful" person can certainly influence a "weaker" person. A parent can influence a child; a teacher a student; [insert cliche example here].

That is, well, not like telepathy. Real people have various strengths and weaknesses, and in the philosophy you seem to be espousing, the weak are culpable for their vulnerability, with strength presumably originating from the self, and therefore being each individual's responsibility (This ideology conveniently ignores the subjects of relative availability of opportunities, resources, and training in developmental stages, but whateva).

Comparing a telepath to a nontelapth is like comparing someone with no legs to a marathon runner. They're intrinsically uneven in a way that is not surmountable by personal effort. A nontelepath can have strong willpower. He can be trained, by himself or by others, to resist telepaths. Although the evidence is inconsistent, telepathy being one of the less quantified powers in the Marvel world, it's fairly clear that nontelepaths without the assistance of a telepath are screwed when it comes to a telepathic attack. Most of the characters who successfully fend off telepaths are those who've had artificial barriers installed, or who are unreliable as evidence due to Clarmazonification ("Insurmountable will" my white Irish ass).

Beyond that, there's the simple fact that, as was mentioned previously, not many people in this world know anything substantial about telepathy. They might not have any reason to believe it exists, and no matter how "powerful" they might be, resisting telepathy has been shown to be a skill, not totally unlike physical self defense. All the potential in the world doesn't substitute for technical skill, so even a powerful individual could be dominated by a telepath without it being an indication of "unworthiness" or "weakness."

Honestly, the offhand arrogance here, if it isn't meant as sarcasm, is plain silly.

[gorthon616]

It’s all about level of influence. If I tell some random stranger to do something stupid, I can hardly be held accountable. If I hold great influence over someone, should it be any different? For instance, maigen will do anything I say without any mind control involved. Should I be punished if she murders someone to please me? Mind control is just about having irresistible influence over someone.

If someone, acting as your agent, kills someone, then yes you are guilty of murder. I mean if you pay me 5 bucks to kill someone (and presuming the likely case that I will kill someone for 5 bucks), then you are guilty of murder. This isn't brain surgery.

[timbox]

If someone, acting as your agent, kills someone, then yes you are guilty of murder. I mean if you pay me 5 bucks to kill someone (and presuming the likely case that I will kill someone for 5 bucks), then you are guilty of murder. This isn't brain surgery.

Take murder out of it then. What if I pay you five quid to shoplift a candy bar? Or better yet, since this thread is about mind control in general, what if I pay you five quid to shave off all your lovely hair? How much responsibility is mine?

[gorthon616]

Take murder out of it then. What if I pay you five quid to shoplift a candy bar? Or better yet, since this thread is about mind control in general, what if I pay you five quid to shave off all your lovely hair? How much responsibility is mine?

You are guilty of theft (and if applicable shaved-head laws). Just because someone else is culpable for a crime does not mean that you are not also culpable.

[timbox]

You are guilty of theft (and if applicable shaved-head laws). Just because someone else is culpable for a crime does not mean that you are not also culpable.

But is the transaction of money itself (the mind control) a crime even if the reasons for the transaction were not illegal? There is no law against shaving your head.

[gorthon616]

But is the transaction of money itself (the mind control) a crime even if the reasons for the transaction were not illegal? There is no law against shaving your head.

Is it illegal to give someone money? No. But to step back from the analogy and get to the actual substance, we are talking about mind control. Ignoring statutory law (which would simply be a law stating "Mind Control is illegal"), you're dealing with tort law. We're dealing with tort law. This means that there must be some amount of damages sustained to the other party (otherwise even if found guilty there would be no relevant judgment against you).

So the question is what *specifically* do you mean when you say Mind Control. Are you strictly saying you defeated them in a battle of wills? If so then you would be liable for whatever they would be liable for and whatever you would be liable for that you do through them.... that's kind of convoluted.... so for example, if you over-powered my will and made me shave my own head then you would be guilty of battery (and sometimes assault if it is treated as a predicate offense) in the same manner in which you would be guilty of battery if you overpowered my physically and shaved my own head.

Of course this is hypothetical since there is no real Mind Control, but the relevant factors was your intent, the existence of an overt act, and causation. "Mind Control" implies both intent and an overt act, and giving the statement of over-powering my will, yours would be the sole causing factor.

If this is merely suggestive in nature, it depends on how the suggestion is made. A simple inserted thought (ignoring it being some sort of specific psychological trigger) will likely be nothing. Nor is Duress inherently a crime. However, the means upon which you create Duress may be. If you are using or threatening psychological harm or emotional distress, both would be adequate sources for crimes. There is also a likely case for invasion of privacy in general.

[Twisted Bliss]

Is it illegal to give someone money?...... statutory law ...... you're dealing with tort law. We're dealing with tort law. .....damages sustained to the other party ......be guilty of battery (and sometimes assault if it is treated as a predicate offense)......., the existence of an overt act, and causation. ......Duress inherently a crime. ........ There is also a likely case for invasion of privacy in general.

First year law text.

Go deeper. You know you want too

[gorthon616]

First year law text.

Go deeper. You know you want too

Cryptic Message. Vague request. Is that what you really want?

[timbox]

A battle of the wills it is! I cannot justify punishing someone for being skilled in their craft.

[Twisted Bliss]

Cryptic Message. Vague request. Is that what you really want?

Really? I thought it quite an obvious and apparent request.

"Expand on your understanding of the subject at hand"

[AcesX1X]

In what way are they delusional?
Honestly, the offhand arrogance here, if it isn't meant as sarcasm, is plain silly.


you seem like the S personality (as opposed to the M).. am i correct?

[Gnarl]

In the Marvel Universe, there are court decisions creating precedent on the fact that telephatically controlling another person is a violation of his/her human rights. And also, interestingly, that the controlled person are not guilty of crimes he has been forced to commit by Tp, by virtue of diminished responsibility.

(State of New York vs. Brian DeWolff. Xavier was one of the expert witnesses in the case.)

Which means that"I was mindcontrolled is a legal defense. I wonder how many times thats been invoked when it was not the case?

[AcesX1X]

In the Marvel Universe, there are court decisions creating precedent on the fact that telephatically controlling another person is a violation of his/her human rights. And also, interestingly, that the controlled person are not guilty of crimes he has been forced to commit by Tp, by virtue of diminished responsibility.

(State of New York vs. Brian DeWolff. Xavier was one of the expert witnesses in the case.)

Which means that"I was mindcontrolled is a legal defense. I wonder how many times thats been invoked when it was not the case?

i think jennifer walters needs to get busy on getting this thing overturned. it sounds like the marvel universe is full of nothing but kangaroo courts with that sort of logic.

[timbox]

I’d like to see a flatscan judge/jury find a telepath guilty of mind control.

[AnthonyJ]

I’d like to see a flatscan judge/jury find a telepath guilty of mind control.
Shrug. That's just a security issue. Nothing says you can't be using superpowers or supertech to prevent the telepath from using his powers on the court. For that matter, in the absence of a better solution, it's probably legal to have the telepath only be in court via television.

[timbox]

This quote is relevant:

"People only have power when you give it to them."
-- SurgeFan88

[AnthonyJ]

This quote is relevant:

"People only have power when you give it to them."
-- SurgeFan88
Why is an obviously false statement relevant?

[AnthonyJ]

In the Marvel Universe, there are court decisions creating precedent on the fact that telephatically controlling another person is a violation of his/her human rights. And also, interestingly, that the controlled person are not guilty of crimes he has been forced to commit by Tp, by virtue of diminished responsibility.
Neither outcome is particularly unreasonable. If I grab your fist and use it to hit someone, I'm the one committing assault, not you (though you might also be culpable if you could reasonably have prevented your fist being used in that way). Mind control isn't really any different, it's just less blatant.

The problem is really one of proof. A number of superpowers would be absolutely horrible for the legal system because they're hard to detect, and just likely enough to create reasonable doubt. Mind control, shapeshift, illusions, and cloning tend to be the big ones here.

[AnotherWord]

Why is an obviously false statement relevant?

It's not, but gee, it sure sounds clever. I mean, if someone says that no one has power unless you give it to them, that must mean that the speaker is a self-aware, complex, and powerful individual, right? He came to this profound, concise conclusion.

The idea is self-evident, after all. A gunman who shoots a schoolboy is empowered by the child, right? I mean, he couldn't have power over the kid any other way, according to this philosophy. A government's ability to, say, bomb a Third World village exists only because those villages surrendered their power to the bombers. And a heavyweight boxer could knock my head off because, silly me, I gave him his muscles.

It's an absurd statement when applied as an absolute. Obviously it's true in some situations, mainly those of a psychological nature, since you can theoretically control your responses to external forces, if nothing else. The ubiquitous "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

In most arenas, however, another person's power doesn't have much to do with you. Implying that anyone who acknowledges power held by another person is somehow giving power away, or showing weakness, is ridiculous.

[timbox]

I am only interested in the opinions of real lawyers such as Twisted Bliss, JAU, and Pro. Shouldn't you sheep be getting back to your lines?

[Magneto X]

I’d like to see a flatscan judge/jury find a telepath guilty of mind control.

I think mind control would be interpreted to violate two common law crimes at the same time.

Battery is unwanted touching, but not just your body, including touching something important to you that you are touching, such as your car, or something you are holding. Battery includes sexual touches, violent touches, splashing someone's clothes with mud, and walking up to someone and knocking their lunch tray to the floor. If mind control existed, people would testify that they felt touched and violated, and I doubt it would take long to add mind control to be a kind of unwanted touching of battery.

False imprionment. If you can't move and the imprisonment isn't legal, it's false imprisonment, regardless of the cause. You wouldn't even need a new interpretation to make this one stick.

[AnthonyJ]

Okay, playing around with New York penal law, since that seems to be the typical governing law, a key question would be whether mind control counts as 'physical force' or 'physical damage'. It's not implausible that mind control, if it can actually be detected by mechanical means, would count as physical force, but it's also something a legislature might wish to rule on specifically.

Going onwards, points of interest would be:
duress (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article40.htm) (relevant to mind control as a defense)
attempt (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article110.htm) (if mind controlling someone to commit a crime)
3rd degree assault (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article120.htm#120.00) (if mind control is physical injury)
2nd degree assault (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article120.htm#120.05) (if mind control is a substance under paragraph 5).
forcible touching (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article130.htm#130.52) (if mind control is force and abuse and the brain is private)
restraint (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article135.htm#135.00) (if mind control is physical force, or the victim is under 16 or mentally incompetent)
coercion (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article135.htm#135.60) does not seem to apply.
obstruction of public servants (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article195.htm) seems very broadly worded, though it only applies to mind control of public servants.
tampering (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article215.htm). Most relevant to using telepathy to cover up crimes, etc.
privacy (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article250.htm). Probably not a violation unless you use a device.

As a practical matter, in any world where such powers were known to exist, amending the law to cover such powers would be trivial.