Why is the Marvel Universe referred to as the "616"?

[IsomerPost]

I'm new to comics. Can anybody help me out?

[Hrungr]

616 was originally coined in the series Excalibur. Our Captain Britain was known as the Captain Britain of Earth 616 (called that by Roma, the "Omniversal Majestrix"). The number was picked up by the fandom and there you have it.

[Expletive Deleted]

It's a reference to an Alan Moore Captain Britain story (pre-EXCALIBUR), where every alternate reality had a designated number, and the MU's was 616. There's a good article on the topic at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth-616).

Basically, it's just a minor thing from a well-regarded series that caught on and has become jargon in the fan community. I think it's more than a little unnecessary, but what can you do?

[Brannon]

It's one of the most annoying recent trends to come down the pike. I've never liked it and think it's far too reminiscent of Pre-Crisis DC.

[ComiXFanBoy]

It's one of the most annoying recent trends to come down the pike. I've never liked it and think it's far too reminiscent of Pre-Crisis DC.
define recent

[Hrungr]

Honestly, I like the 616 designation myself. It's just shorthand for the "Core Marvel Universe" and unless you're completely new to Marvel you'll know what it means when someone says it.

[Soundrave]

define recent

recent (ˈrē-sənt) adj. - anything from July 1983 to the present.

[DarienA]

recent (ˈrē-sənt) adj. - anything from July 1983 to the present.

:lol Excellent.

[Expletive Deleted]

recent (ˈrē-sənt) adj. - anything from July 1983 to the present.It wasn't really in common parlance until a few years ago.

[ComiXFanBoy]

It wasn't really in common parlance until a few years ago.
id say 5-6 years ago. i suppose if you cram in 70yrs then it can be considered recent. but 616 has been on online forums for a good while now

[Michael P]

It may have also been Moore having fun at Marvel's expense, assigning the "main" universe the Number of the Beast (which in some translations of The Revelation is given as 616 instead of 666).

[XPac]

It may have also been Moore having fun at Marvel's expense, assigning the "main" universe the Number of the Beast (which in some translations of The Revelation is given as 616 instead of 666).

Yeah, I always wondered if Moore did that intentionally or not.

[artiepants]

It wasn't really in common parlance until a few years ago.

didn't that have to do the Exiles series assigning numbers to lot's of different alternate realities? kind of brought that idea to the forefront...

but i like it too, it's just shorthand for the "main Marvel universe"

[DeadXMan]

cause we not egotistical and number our universe as "1" unlike some other comic book company.

[DeadXMan]

didn't that have to do the Exiles series assigning numbers to lot's of different alternate realities? kind of brought that idea to the forefront...

but i like it too, it's just shorthand for the "main Marvel universe"

no the OMHB of alternate worlds was

exiles only add to it with AoA and beyond

[Westgarth J]

That's cool that Moore has contributed something lasting to the Marvel canon.
I think Alan Davis re-uses a lot of the concepts from his and Moore's run before Claremont individually, so I think Davis should take the blame/credit for popularising the idea of late.

I do have to wonder how they keep track of all the different realities now that Exiles is making a point of assigning numbers - there's bound to be the odd writer who throws in an arbitrary number for some What If? scenario reality in a filler story somewhere. Gotta be a nightmare. Or at the very least thankless.

[DeadXMan]

That's cool that Moore has contributed something lasting to the Marvel canon.
I think Alan Davis re-uses a lot of the concepts from his and Moore's run before Claremont individually, so I think Davis should take the blame/credit for popularising the idea of late.

I do have to wonder how they keep track of all the different realities now that Exiles is making a point of assigning numbers - there's bound to be the odd writer who throws in an arbitrary number for some What If? scenario reality in a filler story somewhere. Gotta be a nightmare. Or at the very least thankless.

that's why Mark Gruenwald is "The Patron Saint of Marveldom" he was a continuity expert and I think he numbered a lot of the worlds.

[Loki]

Yeah, I always wondered if Moore did that intentionally or not.

He's said that he simply chose a random number. Since he doesn't seem to care what people think of him, and he doesn't hide how he feels about Marvel, I don't think he'd see the need to deny it if it had been intentional.

[Madison Carter]

That's cool that Moore has contributed something lasting to the Marvel canon.
I think Alan Davis re-uses a lot of the concepts from his and Moore's run before Claremont individually, so I think Davis should take the blame/credit for popularising the idea of late.

I do have to wonder how they keep track of all the different realities now that Exiles is making a point of assigning numbers - there's bound to be the odd writer who throws in an arbitrary number for some What If? scenario reality in a filler story somewhere. Gotta be a nightmare. Or at the very least thankless.

Our OHOTMU team has cataloged a good number of them in print, and some of the editors for the books that more frequently use various earth designations have run stuff by us to make sure it doesn't conflict with previous designations.

And it is indeed a minor nightmare at times. But one worth it, I think.

[Expletive Deleted]

that's why Mark Gruenwald is "The Patron Saint of Marveldom" he was a continuity expert and I think he numbered a lot of the worlds.Yes to the former, no to the latter.

[DeadXMan]

Yes to the former, no to the latter.

that's why I added "I think"

[Brannon]

define recent

I suppose I was thinking of it in terms of the breath of the Marvel Universe from the 60's till now--for the majority of it's existence, the Marvel Multiverse never needed a nonsensical number system to get by. I can say that when I started posting on comic forums around 1999, that I don't recall ever encountering the term "616" until just a few years ago.

Beyond the absurdity of an unsystematic numbering system, I think it's pointless convoluted. "Oh yeah, Earth 1456, the one where everything's the same as 616 with the exception that Thing is gay and Galactus wields a cosmic pimp cane."

Do we really need this lame brand faux-realism to improve upon our Marvel reading experience? I say the nay!

[Brannon]

I believe that the original method of categorizing the various alternate dimensions was to simply assign them a basic description based on the comic story they appeared in. There is a whole giant bibliography of these dimensions listed on the inside covers of the OHOTMU Deluxe Edition issues.

[IsomerPost]

Thanks for the help guys. :smile:

[skrullover]

The name itself though I thought was a reference to when the first FF issue came out.

Does anyone know if the universe labelled "1" has been seen.

[TJKernan]

I don't see anything wrong with the numerical system, and in fact simplifies (at least a little) the designations necessary now that virtually hundreds of world have been introduced.

I know I would rather say 'Earth 31222' than 'Earth where Wolverine became the Adversary and killed everybody on the planet' or whatever...

[DeadXMan]

The name itself though I thought was a reference to when the first FF issue came out.

Does anyone know if the universe labelled "1" has been seen.

yes in X-man.

It is a perfect society that sees everyone else universe as "broken" in fact one of them started killing worlds so their world hoppers wouldn't contaminate his home universe.

he killed a Thor with ease.

Nate beat him by having look up and see the elder Gods.

[TJKernan]

That was the inhabitants of the Brilliant City, the killer being Qabiri.

Strange though in that series supposidly they destroyed several of the Multiverses 'in front' of 616, thereby moving 616 up to Earth-612, as they said it, but nobody else has ever used this info...

[Samy]

for the majority of it's existence, the Marvel Multiverse never needed a nonsensical number system to get by.

Do we really need this lame brand faux-realism to improve upon our Marvel reading experience?

No, it's not needed. But then, neither are Deadpool, or Dazzler, or Spider-Woman, or the Agents of Atlas, or Nextwave, or Mammomax. The Marvel Universe would "get by" just perfectly without most of its inhabitants.

But it would be less rich in texture.

When you're adding flavor elements to a fictional story, it's never a question of whether an element is "needed", it's a question of whether it enriches the story.

So we can ask, "Does the fact that the core Marvel Universe has a numeric designation enrich the story of the Marvel Universe for you?"

Some will answer no. Some will answer yes.

[XPac]

I believe that the original method of categorizing the various alternate dimensions was to simply assign them a basic description based on the comic story they appeared in. There is a whole giant bibliography of these dimensions listed on the inside covers of the OHOTMU Deluxe Edition issues.

Yeah, but for posters like us typing 616 seems a lot simpler than typing a basic description. It's quick and easy short hand, so I don't see the downside.

[ZeoVGM]

It's one of the most annoying recent trends to come down the pike. I've never liked it and think it's far too reminiscent of Pre-Crisis DC.

How is it "annoying"? It's literally nothing more than a number to help organize the multiple universes. If Marvel made their comics BASED around the multiverse, constantly crossing over, you would have a point.

[DeadXMan]

That was the inhabitants of the Brilliant City, the killer being Qabiri.

Strange though in that series supposidly they destroyed several of the Multiverses 'in front' of 616, thereby moving 616 up to Earth-612, as they said it, but nobody else has ever used this info...


they just destroyed earth. It is a really bothersome planet in the any universe

[The Sword Is Drawn]

"616" made itself into more common usage during the mid 90s, but the term does indeed originate from Alan Moore and Alan Davis' early 80s Captain Britain stories. It's an easy shorthand, rather than saying 'the mainstream Marvel universe' all the time. But it's not just 'a fan thing'. Many characters have used the number over the years, when there have been stories featuring multiple alternate universes.

Each universe in Marvel's multiverse is assigned a reference number. 616 is the number for mainstream Marvel. But they are reference numbers, not a numerical list. So if one universe was destroyed all the others wouldn't move up one place on the list, if you know what I mean.

I personally like the term.

[ComiXFanBoy]

No, it's not needed. neither are Nextwave. The Marvel Universe would "get by" just perfectly.

could not agree more!

[Alan2099]

I really didn't see it start popping up until the Ultimate stuff came out.

Its mostly just another geek thing for geeks to use to help emphasis their geekier than thou status. ... which depending on how you look at thing, may or may not be a bad thing.

Me? I don't think it's needed to be used on a regualr basis unless you're directly dealing with alternate realities and beings that would directly need to keep track of which one is which, like the Fanastic Four, Merlin, or a good number of the cosmics.

... Also, I liked how sometimes in JLA stories the regualr JLA would argue with other realities people about which earth was Earth-2 and which was Earth-1.

[Expletive Deleted]

Its mostly just another geek thing for geeks to use to help emphasis their geekier than thou status. ... which depending on how you look at thing, may or may not be a bad thing.

Me? I don't think it's needed to be used on a regualr basis unless you're directly dealing with alternate realities and beings that would directly need to keep track of which one is which, like the Fanastic Four, Merlin, or a good number of the cosmics.I'd more or less agree with that.

The idea of there being a system of numbered universes is fine, and even somewhat useful in its proper context. It's when it turns into obscure but ubiquitous jargon that it becomes a barrier. Unless you've already been informed of its meaning, it's completely opaque. It makes the conversation less immediately accessible to new readers, which I tend to think of as a negative.

[XPac]

I'd more or less agree with that.

The idea of there being a system of numbered universes is fine, and even somewhat useful in its proper context. It's when it turns into obscure but ubiquitous jargon that it becomes a barrier. Unless you've already been informed of its meaning, it's completely opaque. It makes the conversation less immediately accessible to new readers, which I tend to think of as a negative.

All shorthand is inaccessible until you learn it.

I don't think 616 is that much harder than learning LOL or BRB or whatever. When you're chatting, shorthand is simply a part of the game.

[XPac]

I really didn't see it start popping up until the Ultimate stuff came out.

Its mostly just another geek thing for geeks to use to help emphasis their geekier than thou status. ... which depending on how you look at thing, may or may not be a bad thing.

Me? I don't think it's needed to be used on a regualr basis unless you're directly dealing with alternate realities and beings that would directly need to keep track of which one is which, like the Fanastic Four, Merlin, or a good number of the cosmics.

... Also, I liked how sometimes in JLA stories the regualr JLA would argue with other realities people about which earth was Earth-2 and which was Earth-1.

I don't think the majority of people that use it view it as any sort of status. It's just functional short hand.

Once the Ultimate and Marvel Adventures universes began popping up, you began having multiple versions of the same character. 616 is simply easier to type than any of the alternatives like "MU proper" or whatever.

[Expletive Deleted]

All shorthand is inaccessible until you learn it.

I don't think 616 is that much harder than learning LOL or BRB or whatever. When you're chatting, shorthand is simply a part of the game.You wouldn't draw a distinction between a bit of shorthand that's a simple acronym and a bit that requires at least cursory knowledge of a somewhat obscure, out of print comic from a quarter-century ago?

[XPac]

You wouldn't draw a distinction between a bit of shorthand that's a simple acronym and a bit that requires at least cursory knowledge of a somewhat obscure, out of print comic from a quarter-century ago?

That's the thing.. I don't think you NEED to understand the origin of the term in order to use it.

There are tons of expressions that have filtered into our daily language which we all use regularly that have some obscure long forgotten orign we don't really need to know. That's just how language works.

[Beadle]

No, it's not needed. But then, neither are ........., or Mammomax.
I disagree entirely. The universe would cease to exist without Mammomax (or at least the remnants of his skeleton after Predator X finished with him). He's that crucial to life, the universe and everything.

But as far as the '616' denomination is concerned, it's a quandary.

On one hand, I find it convenient. It's an easy way of referring to the universe without constantly having to write 'Mainstream Marvel Universe'.

On the other hand, I find it totally illogical. If the Universe is infinite, why would we suddenly assume there are a finite number of universes to which you can assign numbers? If there are an infinite number of universes, then numbering would be impossible and meaningless. This isn't DC here, kids. (52 worlds indeed!)

[Samy]

Agreed. Just like you don't need to know that LOL means "laughing out loud" to get the meaning that it's expressing amusement. And in fact I bet in twenty years there will be a significant amount of people who will be using LOL, but if asked about what it's short for, they won't be able to answer.

[Samy]

I find it totally illogical. If the Universe is infinite, why would we suddenly assume there are a finite number of universes to which you can assign numbers?

I think there are a finite number of universes; otherwise it would be impossible for Roma to keep track of them. And Otherworld would implode into a black hole whenever the Captain Britain Corps were having meetings if there was an infinite amount of them, and therefore infinite mass. It's only common sense that there must be a finite amount of universes.

(Semi tongue in cheek.)

[The Sword Is Drawn]

You wouldn't draw a distinction between a bit of shorthand that's a simple acronym and a bit that requires at least cursory knowledge of a somewhat obscure, out of print comic from a quarter-century ago?

It is a term which has been kept alive in the books though. Granted it's not used very often, but how many times do most titles deal with the Multiverse. Exiles has used it. Because it does.

The issues in question were reprinted in the mid 90s, collected in trade in 2000, and are about to be put out in an omnibus. It's not too much of a stretch, and I don't think that too many aren't aware of the term.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I think there are a finite number of universes; otherwise it would be impossible for Roma to keep track of them. And Otherworld would implode into a black hole whenever the Captain Britain Corps were having meetings if there was an infinite amount of them, and therefore infinite mass. It's only common sense that there must be a finite amount of universes.

(Semi tongue in cheek.)

Roma no longer runs the multiverse. She's been dead since early last year. Technically we believe it's Merlyn, again now.

In both cases though we're talking about individuals who are Gods. They can comprehend an infinite number of Universes. It was only really a stretch when Captain Britain replaced Roma. But then they had kind of given him the powers of a God...:rolleyes:

God bless magic, eh? The ultimate get out clause. :biggrin:

[The Confessor]

Beyond the absurdity of an unsystematic numbering system, I think it's pointless convoluted. "Oh yeah, Earth 1456, the one where everything's the same as 616 with the exception that Thing is gay and Galactus wields a cosmic pimp cane."



As others have pointed out in this thread, I don't believe that it is convoluted in the slightest. 616 is a lot easier to say (or type) than "The Mainstream Marvel Universe". It's just a useful bit of shorthand that people use. I don't see a problem with that.



You wouldn't draw a distinction between a bit of shorthand that's a simple acronym and a bit that requires at least cursory knowledge of a somewhat obscure, out of print comic from a quarter-century ago?


You don't need to have read the actual issue of Captain Britain to understand the term 616 though. I knew what 616 meant and was regularly using the term a long time before I actually knew its origins.

Myself, I like the term 616. I think it's just an easy bit of shorthand for specifying the mainstream Marvel universe and from that point of view, it's a useful thing. As for when the term 616 first began to appear in common comic book fan parlance, I'd have to say it was around the 2000 mark, when the Ultimate Universe was launched and people needed to easily differentiate between the two separate Marvel continuities.

[GDB]

Each universe in Marvel's multiverse is assigned a reference number. 616 is the number for mainstream Marvel. But they are reference numbers, not a numerical list. So if one universe was destroyed all the others wouldn't move up one place on the list, if you know what I mean.

Although they do say in EXiles that if one universe is destroyed, then it can cause a domino effect and deteriorate other universes. Whether this is true or just worm propoganda, they never said.

On the other hand, I find it totally illogical. If the Universe is infinite, why would we suddenly assume there are a finite number of universes to which you can assign numbers? If there are an infinite number of universes, then numbering would be impossible and meaningless. This isn't DC here, kids. (52 worlds indeed!)
It's numbered based on when they're discovered, I believe. When a universe is found and recorded, it's given a number. EXiles has numbering shown up through 5 or 6 digits, I believe.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Although they do say in EXiles that if one universe is destroyed, then it can cause a domino effect and deteriorate other universes. Whether this is true or just worm propoganda, they never said.

It kind of has some backing. Back in Captain Britain Alan moore had an entire Universe go down, and they stated the domino effect could happen, there. It was therefore neccesary to cut off the damage universe from the Multiverse to avoid that happening. Which they did. One rogue element (The Fury) escaped, though.

The idea of one damaging others is nothing new in that respect. It's not just hyperbole. :biggrin:

[skrullover]

Again, isn't 616 just a nod to the first issue of FF, which is considered the change of modern comics. And it is not that hard to remember.

So they did vistit #1 dimension. As a follow-up, what is the dimension that is supposed to be ours from 1985?

[DeadXMan]

Again, isn't 616 just a nod to the first issue of FF, which is considered the change of modern comics. And it is not that hard to remember.

So they did vistit #1 dimension. As a follow-up, what is the dimension that is supposed to be ours from 1985?



no, FF came out in November

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/45/Ff1kirby.jpg

[Alan2099]

Okay, so the arguement is made that 616 is short for the mainstream marvel universe.

So, how often do you actually have to emphsis that you're talking about the MAIN marvel Universe when talking about anything Marvel? I can understand stressing that you're talking about an Ultimate version, or a cartoon version, or anything that isn't the main one, but why do you need shorthand for something that everybody is going to assume you're talking about anyway? If you're talking about Daredevil, people aren't going to immediatley assume you're talking about movie or Ultimate Daredevil, are they?

[Samy]

At least a couple of times a month.

Often enough that the shorthand is useful.

[XPac]

So, how often do you actually have to emphsis that you're talking about the MAIN marvel Universe when talking about anything Marvel?

How often do you see someone using the term 616? That's roughly how often such emphasis apparently is needed.

[coconutphone]

Exactly. People really only use it when comparing with alternate reality versions of characters like the Ultimates or when comparing to our (real) world. Like Stephen Colbert continuing to run for Prez in the 616 but not in our universe.

[ZeoVGM]

Again, isn't 616 just a nod to the first issue of FF, which is considered the change of modern comics. And it is not that hard to remember.

So they did vistit #1 dimension. As a follow-up, what is the dimension that is supposed to be ours from 1985?

I don't believe it or any of the recent Millar alternate universes have been given numbers yet. I'm hoping for another "Handbook to Alternate Universes" book soon.

[Loki]

I don't believe it or any of the recent Millar alternate universes have been given numbers yet. I'm hoping for another "Handbook to Alternate Universes" book soon.
Give us a chance to finish the hardcovers first! :tongue:

[MartinRedmond]

616 comes from Dave Thorpe. It's popular because Alan Moore took his ideas.



http://www.marvel.com/blogs/Tom_Brevoort/entry/719
Alan Davis sent me the following information concerning the origins of the 616 designation for the Marvel Universe:


... Although credited to Alan Moore, like much of the other Captain Britain folklore it was in place before he joined the book. (In actual fact the only significant addition Alan and I co-created was the Fury.) Jim Jaspers, the Crazy Gang, Saturnyne, the Omniversal organisation (Avante Guarde) Captain UK, etc were all conceived by Paul Neary or Dave Thorpe. Most of the more classic elements were Paul's (he had worked on an Arthurian Black Knight strip for Marvel UK some years earlier that utilised Captain Britain and introduced Jackdaw). Dave Thorpe, who wasn't a fan of the modern superhero genre, was responsible for most of the more madcap or satirical elements--such as recording his opinion of the Marvel Universe with the designation 616...

[Loki]

616 comes from Dave Thorpe. It's popular because Alan Moore took his ideas.



http://www.marvel.com/blogs/Tom_Brevoort/entry/719

There's a discrepancy in recollections.

Alan Davis says Thorpe came up with it.
Alan Moore says he came up with it.
One is misremembering. It's impossible to say for sure who, but Moore is usually very good at giving credit where it is due (note that he acknowledges the various artists he has worked with as co-creators, unlike many writers).

When a reality designator was used in Thorpe's run, it was not a numerical one. The next mention of a reality designator was more than a year after Moore had taken over writing the series, and that was the first time we got a numerical designator. That evidence supports Moore's recollection.

[MartinRedmond]

Alan Davis didn't get a penny out of Miracle Man either and it was published despite his refusal. I think I'd trust Davis' word first.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?id=567&page=article

This is the main reason I have done so little work for independent comic companies. In broad terms, Marvel and DC have been pretty straight with me. In fact, it is ironic that Marvel, which is damned for its use of work-for-hire, would not reprint the Captain Britain without the creators' permission while Eclipse happily stole my Marvelman pages. I could do nothing to stop the theft. It wasn't simply that I didn't have the resources. I couldn't even get my side of the story heard. Eclipse had Quality Comics, much of the fan press and Alan Moore on their side.


Anyway, it's only popular because it's associated with Moore. If it had been brought up by whoever, nobody would give a crap. :}

[Loki]

Alan Davis didn't get a penny out of Miracle Man either and it was published despite his refusal. I think I'd trust Davis' word first.


It's not a question of trusting anyone's word. Thorpe never used 616 or any other numerical designator. He did use a designator though, but not a numerical one - if he'd come out with the idea of numerical designators, then why use a different system, and why did the numerical ones not turn up until more than a year after he left the series?


Anyway, it's only popular because it's associated with Moore. If it had been brought up by whoever, nobody would give a crap. :}

Ironically, the person probably most responsible for it enduring is Davis - he used it again in Excalibur, bringing the concept to American fans in a time when the British CB stories had not been reprinted over there.

[The Confessor]

Okay, so the arguement is made that 616 is short for the mainstream marvel universe.

So, how often do you actually have to emphsis that you're talking about the MAIN marvel Universe when talking about anything Marvel?


In both real life conversations and when posting on the CBR, I find the need to diferentiate between the main Marvel Universe and The Ultimate Universe at least a few times a month. Frankly, that's often enough to warrant saying "616" in my book.



If you're talking about Daredevil, people aren't going to immediatley assume you're talking about movie or Ultimate Daredevil, are they?


Yes, they might do. It's certainly happened to me before now.

[Come To Deathstrike]

Well technically, it's Earth 612, as it is 612th on the spiral of worlds.

[Madison Carter]

Well technically, it's Earth 612, as it is 612th on the spiral of worlds.

Nope, still 616, regardless of what happened to realities with numerical designations before it.

Think of it in these terms: If there's a family with, say, a John Smith, a John Smith Jr. and a John Smith III....if John Smith Jr. dies, that doesn't bump Smith III up to Smith Jr. Same for the designations for the Earth designations. Even if some are destroyed or cease to exist, they still did and retain those designations in their own absence.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Well technically, it's Earth 612, as it is 612th on the spiral of worlds.

Not so. Those numbers ar like lot numbers or barcodes, not world #<whatever> on the spiral. The numbers dont change, regardless of how many other dimensions are destroyed.

[Alex L]

I actually like the 616 number, because it doesn't mean anything. There's nothing special or memorable about it.

Also, by dint of it being such a large number, it's also telling the layperson to not bother to remember it. There's so many alternate worlds out there, that you shouldn't even really need to try.

[XPac]

I actually like the 616 number, because it doesn't mean anything. There's nothing special or memorable about it.

Also, by dint of it being such a large number, it's also telling the layperson to not bother to remember it. There's so many alternate worlds out there, that you shouldn't even really need to try.

As some have mentioned, 616 in some interpretations is the mark of the devil (as oppossed to 666).

So it's POSSIBLE it meant something. Though that could just be a funny coincidence.

[Frank]

"616" became usefull when the Ultimate Universe was created. People needed to differenciate between the two Universes when they talked about stories and characters from various.

I have one question though: Is the current MU still the 616 Universe that Moore wrote about? Looking at the various changes since 2000, it seems like a dark alternate Universe has taken over where the worst has happened from Norman Osborne having sex with Gwen Stacy, Mephisto erazing Spidey's relation with MJ, Captain America dying, Bucky coming back as a dark character and taking over the mantle, villains dressed as heroes, Wasp dying, etc...

[The Black Guardian]

"616" became usefull when the Ultimate Universe was created. People needed to differenciate between the two Universes when they talked about stories and characters from various.

I have one question though: Is the current MU still the 616 Universe that Moore wrote about? Looking at the various changes since 2000, it seems like a dark alternate Universe has taken over where the worst has happened from Norman Osborne having sex with Gwen Stacy, Mephisto erazing Spidey's relation with MJ, Captain America dying, Bucky coming back as a dark character and taking over the mantle, villains dressed as heroes, Wasp dying, etc...
Heh. It does seem like some alternate universe, doesn't it? But nope, it's the same one.

[Brother Justin Crowe]

That was the inhabitants of the Brilliant City, the killer being Qabiri.

Strange though in that series supposidly they destroyed several of the Multiverses 'in front' of 616, thereby moving 616 up to Earth-612, as they said it, but nobody else has ever used this info...

Yeah, that's always pissed me off.

[Frank]

Heh. It does seem like some alternate universe, doesn't it? But nope, it's the same one.

Not if I take over and fire everybody. :biggrin: You say sure for the past 15 years this was Universe code 616(that had the Spider-Man clones to Norman and Gwen, etc..) but then you bring everything to how Marvel was in say...1988 and show them Marvel code 1 where everything is fine and none of the crap ever happened.

[Laminator_X]

I have one question though: Is the current MU still the 616 Universe that Moore wrote about? Looking at the various changes since 2000, it seems like a dark alternate Universe has taken over where the worst has happened from Norman Osborne having sex with Gwen Stacy, Mephisto erazing Spidey's relation with MJ, Captain America dying, Bucky coming back as a dark character and taking over the mantle, villains dressed as heroes, Wasp dying, etc...

I blame Superboy Prime retcon punching the Watcher.

[Frank]

I blame Superboy Prime retcon punching the Watcher.

The Prime punch is the cause of everything! :frown:

[Brannon]

So, basically, 616 is popular because it allows fans to type less? Somehow I'm not surprised at all by this.

[Endless Flight]

It annoys Joe Queseda, so I'm all for it.