Your take on the Stargirl/Captain Marvel/Atom Smasher relationships?

[Jabroniville]

Hey all! First post here! Figured I'd toss out something that's been on my mind for a considerable length of time.

Now, in JSA, the Stargirl/Atom Smasher thing had been mentioned from the second Trade, when they showed them married in the future. Of course, nothing is set in stone, and they'd only been like big brother/kid sister before that point, but suddenly all their subsequent characterization became focused on that. Importantly, Al was NEVER shown as crushing on Stars at all, because that would've made him creepy. Even Stars was only really shown being CLOSE to Al, and nothing more for quite a while. When the team kind of split into 'talking pairs', she was often with either him or Hawkgirl/Power Girl.

I think the biggest hints of her ACTUALLY crushing on Al came when he finally quit the team, and earlier when he told her off while he & Black Adam were discussing Kahndaq, when her sense of horror and betrayal was FAR in excess of the others. Of course, she went RIGHT from there into the relationship with Billy Batson, and the fans LOVED that. So much that it seems those 'shippers' have taken a much larger stance online (even the new JSA writers have been shocked by just HOW much they've been asked whether or not those two would hook up).

Now, their relationship was pretty short- basically hooking up in Princes of Darkness, dating for five issues, arguing during Black Reign, and breaking up in the beginning of Lost, lasting barely a year together by OUR standards, probably a couple months in theirs, tops. But they were cute together, both being sixteen (well, most of the time in Billy's case), and everything was handled really well, especially the break-up.

During Dark Reign though, you got the sense of what was really going on. Stars seemed to still like Billy, but tended to be snarky at him. When he outright called her out on crushing on Al, she snapped back at him, and she sarcastically called him "Romeo" when he flirted with her after she saved him. Her anger at Atom Smasher during the whole arc seemed to imply she still had feelings for him, so the betrayal seemed even worse.

In Black Vengeance they meet up again, and Courtney is now FURIOUS with Al (it was just after her family'd been shot down by Degaton's men), even moreso than in Kahndaq. She eventually acknowledges that now she felt what he felt back when his mother died, so she understands him a little better. But it's during the second Kahndaq arc with the Spectre where she shows her true colours in my opinion- she's openly confused and hurt when Al goes BACK to Kahndaq with Adam (snapping at Billy when he tries to comfort her), and when Al is killed by the Spectre, she practically falls apart at his side.

THEN she goes as far as to say "I'll be there for him, no matter how long it takes" when he goes to jail. Things seem practically set in STONE at this point that she's in love with him (there's still no hints of anything other than admiration and sisterly love from Al, though), but then during the whole One Year Later/52/Re-Boot of JSA thing he vanishes from most comics, with no mention of he & Stargirl hanging out. He doesn't even appear in the new JSA book until Stargirl looks him up to talk to Damage.

And after that bizarre little period of nothing, she goes and makes goo-goo eyes at Billy AGAIN when he teams up with the JSA to go after Black Adam again, nearly kissing him. So I ask, what the heck is going on, and what's everyone's take on it? During that GIANT one year gap where Al was out of prison for presumably most of it, did he & Stars just drift apart or something? Is she still destined to be with Al, her first big crush and 'future husband', who she shows the most open feelings for, his betrayal of her hurting so much? Or should she be with Billy, the much cuter, simpler relationship (same age, probably more in common)? Or should she just tell both of them to go to hell, and focus on doing her own thing?

I should note that the age difference between Al & Courtney is getting more neglible, as she was sixteen during JSA's later arcs, THEN One Year Later hit, and she's going to have a birthday in Johns' last issue ("Black Adam Ruined My Birthday" greatest single issue title ever?), which means that if they're paying attention, she's now eighteen, and of legal age. Al is a contemporary of the 80s Teen Titans, so is probably about 25, making the age gap less creepy.

They kind of skirt around most of this in the comics, and you have to be paying attention to pick up on plenty of things (especially Al/Courtney, where ONLY the future-marriage & Billy calling her out on it have EVER explicitly stated one liked the other), so I really can't wait for it to be resolutely addressed once and for all. So what's everyone's take on this?

[_OM_]

...I wouldn't worry about it. When Didio gets tossed out of DC, and they return the Marvel Family to their original iconic status, Billy will be back to being a sexless teenager with no relationship, and Courtney will be free to grow up and get hooked up with Al. In other words, a Billy/Courtney relationship will have about as much of a future as a Clark Kent/Maggie Sawyer one.

[Shellhead]

I believe that you have misread the previous JSA series, at least with respect to Star Girl and Atom Smasher. Their relationship was more like brother and sister. Geoff Johns has even commented on that here at CBR, admitting that his characterization of Atom Smasher is based on himself, while his characterization of Star Girl is based on his sister, who died in a plane crash in 1996.

[Jabroniville]

It seems possible that that's the case quite often, I'll admit, especially from Al's end. But then why'd Johns write them as married in the future, and have other characters comment about them (Billy, Power Girl seems to have figured it out too)? Unless he can't decide half the time, either :).

[jv2k]

I never got anything more than a brother sister vibe from Al and Courtney.

[Shellhead]

It seems possible that that's the case quite often, I'll admit, especially from Al's end. But then why'd Johns write them as married in the future, and have other characters comment about them (Billy, Power Girl seems to have figured it out too)? Unless he can't decide half the time, either :).

I don't recall seeing an issue that depicted Al and Courtney married in the future. When was that?

[carabas]

I don't recall seeing an issue that depicted Al and Courtney married in the future. When was that?I don't recall that eiher. Can you provide an issue number/page number for the trade?

[Darrell D.]

The end of the 'Darkness Falls' JSA TPB.

[Jabroniville]

Yeah, Courtney was shown as married with children, with what was clearly supposed to be Al, as she narrated the whole final battle with Extant, including Atom-Smasher killing him. That was actually the FIRST hint that she really liked him.

I'm surprised as many have stated they're 'brother/sister' as they did, though that usually tends to be how Al views it (most of his comments include stuff like "Courtney looked up to ME, when I looked up to the JSA."). I would've taken alot of Court's later characterization (her sheer fury at Al for betraying them, her heartbreak as he died) as having far deeper feelings than just a familial bond. The fact that Captain Marvel basically called her out on it once ("you... like him, don't you?" "Now is not the time to get JEALOUS, Billy.") seems to lend credence to that.

And hell, whoever edited every bio entry on Atom-Smasher on the entire internet (not me- I swear :)), certainly seems to think so. Every one of them contains the exact same dialogue about he & Stars. I've never heard the "Johns writes Al as himself" comment before, does anyone have the link to it? I love reading comments by the creators.

[Shellhead]

It's helpful if you know four related things:

1. Geoff's sister Courtney died in a famous plane crash, TWA Flight 800, in 1996. Although the exact cause of the crash has never been determined, there is evidence that suggests that a bomb may have been detonated onboard. Officially, the likely cause is an explosion of the center wing fuel tank caused by a short-circuiting wire just outside that tank.

2. Geoff has stated that Courtney Whitmore, aka Star Girl, is based on his own sister.

3. Two early issues of JSA scripted by Geoff (JSA #11-12) bear an eerie resemblance to item #1 above. Kobra (a high-profile terrorist organization in the DCU) destroyed a plane, and Atom-Smasher's mom was a passenger killed on that flight. Obviously, Atom-Smasher represents Geoff himself in this story.

4. A few issues later, during the Extant storyline, Atom-Smasher is granted the power to retroactively switch Extant for his mother on that plane, just before the attack, effectively rescuing her from her own death, and condemning Extant to a fiery explosion. Again, this represents obvious wish-fulfillment for Geoff, that somebody horrible could have died in his sister's place.

So it seems extremely unlikely that Geoff would ever depict any sort of romantic interest between Courtney and Al, because in his mind, it would be incestuous. That future glimpse of Courtney and Al married? I still don't remember that scene. Did Geoff explicitly identify both characters as Courtney and Al?

[rwe1138]

I really liked the Courtney/Billy romance, and was sad to see it go. (Although that done-in-one Per Degaton issue where he broke up with her was fantastic.) I'm not holding out hope for anything to be rekindled now though, as DC probably has other plans for Billy.

[carabas]

Okay. Found it. It is just one measely throwawayline.

I wonder, just how much of those early stories was Johns, and how much was David Goyer?

[carabas]

Server hickup.

[Shellhead]

Okay. Found it. It is just one measely throwawayline.

I wonder, just how much of those early stories was Johns, and how much was David Goyer?

Officially, Johns is listed as just scripter on the early issues, but given the continuity of the style of the title after Goyer left, I suspect that Johns was also directly involved in the plotting of the story arcs.

[I am MODOK]

I always got a bit of a Colossus/Kitty Pryde vibe from Stargirl and Atom Smasher, but I really prefer Billy Batson having a chance with her. Atom Smasher is a fantastic character, but I think he's been to too many dark places that Courtney doesn't need to be exposed to.

[Jabroniville]

It's helpful if you know four related things:

1. Geoff's sister Courtney died in a famous plane crash, TWA Flight 800, in 1996. Although the exact cause of the crash has never been determined, there is evidence that suggests that a bomb may have been detonated onboard. Officially, the likely cause is an explosion of the center wing fuel tank caused by a short-circuiting wire just outside that tank.

2. Geoff has stated that Courtney Whitmore, aka Star Girl, is based on his own sister.

3. Two early issues of JSA scripted by Geoff (JSA #11-12) bear an eerie resemblance to item #1 above. Kobra (a high-profile terrorist organization in the DCU) destroyed a plane, and Atom-Smasher's mom was a passenger killed on that flight. Obviously, Atom-Smasher represents Geoff himself in this story.

4. A few issues later, during the Extant storyline, Atom-Smasher is granted the power to retroactively switch Extant for his mother on that plane, just before the attack, effectively rescuing her from her own death, and condemning Extant to a fiery explosion. Again, this represents obvious wish-fulfillment for Geoff, that somebody horrible could have died in his sister's place.

So it seems extremely unlikely that Geoff would ever depict any sort of romantic interest between Courtney and Al, because in his mind, it would be incestuous. That future glimpse of Courtney and Al married? I still don't remember that scene. Did Geoff explicitly identify both characters as Courtney and Al?

While the two characters may have basis in Johns & his sibling (Al seems to just share Geoff's take on his family member's death, which is standard 'bring your own emotions through the character' writing), they aren't actually siblings in the book, which I think would make it OK as far as morality or 'creepiness' goes. It's a little odd, I'll grant you that, if they WERE to hook up, but it makes sense from Courtney's perspective that this super-nice guy who treated her well when she debuted would be looked at romantically.

And I'd take the 'future marriage' to be more than one throwaway line, since they showed wedding photos of the two in the first page of that arc, Courtney refers to Al constantly throughout the issue (referring to 'the children'). Of course, they don't actually SAY they were married, so it's entirely likely Johns/Goyer were screwing with us and just had Al SHOW UP at Courtney's wedding to Hawkman or something. :smile:

[robbieglenn]

Stargirl and Hawkman together.

Now THAT is screwed up!

[carabas]

Two things:
a) This is the JSA. They hang wityh guys like Metron. They have villains like Extant, Per Degaton, and Mordru. Their past and future timelines are like confetti.

b) Teenage girls tend to have more than one crush in their lifetimes. And often don't marry their teenage crushes anyway.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

So it seems extremely unlikely that Geoff would ever depict any sort of romantic interest between Courtney and Al, because in his mind, it would be incestuous. That future glimpse of Courtney and Al married? I still don't remember that scene. Did Geoff explicitly identify both characters as Courtney and Al?

It's in the issue you just talked about - the framing device for that issue is Courtney narrating from the future, and she mentions Al as her husband, and there are pics of them shown.

It actually put me off the book as I didn't like the final part of a four part story suddenly having a framing device different to the rest of the story, and especially not one as naff as a character narrating from the future - which kind of limits the drama of what could happen to that character.


Okay. Found it. It is just one measely throwawayline.


It may be one more line, but when that line is from a character who is narrating a story from their past, and mentions I later married this person, it's a bit more than throw away.

[Jabroniville]

b) Teenage girls tend to have more than one crush in their lifetimes. And often don't marry their teenage crushes anyway.

Lynn Johnston would disagree with you :smile:

[Shellhead]

Lynn Johnston would disagree with you :smile:

Poor Lynn Johnston has moved into an alternate reality. Or at least she has been drawing one.

[Jabroniville]

For the record, I think that Al's saving his own mother from the plane crash was just Geoff projecting some of himself onto a character and vice-versa (hardly an unusual writer's tactic)- Al isn't necessarily Geoff writing himself as a self-insert all the way through. So it never really carried any creepy incestual undertones to it, to me.

The only issue I ever had with their early hinting at marriage and the near-constant hints she was basically in love with him (she says when he's in prison that she'll wait "as long as it takes", which is certainly an odd thing for a girl to say about her 'brother') was the age thing- but since Al pretty much NEVER has shown a physical/intimate interest in Courtney, it wasn't so bad- it just seemed like a younger girl crushing on a nice older guy, then wanting him to come back to her side of things when he got darker. I always figured they'd do a thing where Courtney would reveal feelings for Al, and he'd have to deal with them, and figure out what he was going to do about them.

'course, this being comics, they'd probably break up and make up like 7 times before killing one of them anyways :smile:

[_OM_]

For the record, I think that Al's saving his own mother from the plane crash was just Geoff projecting some of himself onto a character and vice-versa (hardly an unusual writer's tactic)- Al isn't necessarily Geoff writing himself as a self-insert all the way through. So it never really carried any creepy incestual undertones to it, to me.

...The only reason anyone gets the sick idea that an Al-Courtney relationship would be incestual is Johns' own admission that he essentially "Mary Sue'd" himself as Al and his late sister as Courtney. If he'd kept that to himself, nobody's sick fetish desires/phobias would have been titilated.

[
'course, this being comics, they'd probably break up and make up like 7 times before killing one of them anyways :smile:

...Or stick her in a planet-sized bullet and send her off into the galaxy just to avoid having to deal with an existing relationship.


Stargirl and Hawkman together.

...With Cyclone in the middle, with lots of mace action!


Now THAT is screwed up!

...No, what's screwed up is DC's 60 year refusal to acknowledge that the only way Hawkman can sustain a regular book is to have Hawkgirl dress up in *his* costume.

[carabas]

...No, what's screwed up is DC's 60 year refusal to acknowledge that the only way Hawkman can sustain a regular book is to have Hawkgirl dress up in *his* costume.This requires a bit of an explanation, I think. Wasn't Hawkman sustaining his own book with low but healthy numbers, until DC for reasons unknown relaunched it as "Hawkgirl" after which the book died soon after?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

This requires a bit of an explanation, I think. Wasn't Hawkman sustaining his own book with low but healthy numbers, until DC for reasons unknown relaunched it as "Hawkgirl" after which the book died soon after?

Yeah, he's last relaunch only died once they changed creative teams* and put Hawkgirl in the title role.



*Both are good, but man was Simonson and Chaykin an odd combo.

[titanfan]

I remember the Stargirl/Atom Smasher being married in the future line too and I remember being absolutely horrified by it. Just too creepy.

[Jabroniville]

Well they were BOTH adults at the time, so it's presumably less creepy than the Colossus/Kitty Pryde relationship, where both openly mooned over the other, despite one being and adult and the other a child. :smile:

[Sandy Hausler]

I remember the Stargirl/Atom Smasher being married in the future line too and I remember being absolutely horrified by it. Just too creepy.

Well, he's about 25 and she's about 16. Pursh that five years down the line and it doesn't even raise and eyebrow.

Some people have no imagination.:biggrin:

Sandy Hausler

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Well, he's about 25 and she's about 16. Pursh that five years down the line and it doesn't even raise and eyebrow.

Some people have no imagination.:biggrin:

Sandy Hausler

Yeah, it said they hook up down the track - and they get married.

It's not like one took advantage of the other or anything.

[Son of Sheena]

I still pray for Billy to tap the Court and tap it hard!!

[Son of Sheena]

Still praying....

[Shellhead]

I'm not very familiar with the writing of Matt Sturges, but I suspect that the romantic life of a teenage girl is low on Willingham's list of priorities to write about.

[theyallfalldown]

I am confused now,i as it seems a lot of people suggesting there hasn't ever been any romance between al and courtney?

I kinda thought there was some kinda romance there, particularly in the latest volume of jsa written by johns, which seemed to show them as rather close in that respect, with al even being warned off courtney by the old timers?

I always thought it a little creepy, as isn't he a lot older? And courtney would be barely if at all legal?

[carabas]

At least we know that, given the Snow White/Bigby romance that Willingham is not one to shy away from out there romances. And then there's Jack bagging all three of his sisters and Goldylocks having bear sex.

[glennsim]

I wouldn't mind a Billy/Courtney thing as long as they acknowledge that when Billy is Cap, Cap isn't interested, because Cap is an adult.

I much prefer "Cap is a grownup version of Billy" than "Cap is Billy in a grownup body"