Watchmen with Charlton Characters?

[WorstThingUS]

Maybe someone has mentioned this before, but given how DC had no shame about milking ideas, why haven't they done a Watchmen elseworlds type of one-shot using the original Charlton Characters that Alan Moore wanted to use? I'm not going pretend they respect Alan Moore and his work too much and think maybe some legal issue prevents it which is too bad. Not that Watchmen isn't the most perfect work ever and beyond criticism (sigh), but if it had a flaw it's in that you had no real attachment to them as superheroes because they didn't exist before that or since, whereas you have a history and attachment to Captain Atom, The Peacemaker, The Question and Blue Beetle. Watching them descended in madness or die would have much more of an impact.

And basically because I think it'd just be neat to see.

[JCAll]

I believe Giffen mentioned pitching this in one of his columns.

[J.R. LeMar]

...whereas you have a history and attachment to Captain Atom, The Peacemaker, The Question and Blue Beetle. Watching them descended in madness or die would have much more of an impact.

Well, @ the time Watchmen was written, I don't think the Charlton characters had been in use much for awhile, which is why they just sold them to DC. So I doubt that it would've made that big of a difference in terms of any emotional impact of the story, because most readers wouldn't have been any more familiar with Capt. Atom & Blue Beetle than they were with Dr. Manhattan & NiteOwl. I'd never heard of any of them, until DC revamped them (I used to love Cary Bates' Capt. Atom series).

And, in the end, I think that's why it was a better decision to use archetypes instead of the real characters. Because they're weren't well-known, it probably would've been harder for readers to accept new standard superhero stories of those characters, after reading such a powerful story like Watchman. It would be weird to see Blue Beetle go through everything NiteOwl did in Watchman, and then see him in Giffen's JLI going "Bwa-ha-ha!" & cracking one-liners. It would be like if Neil Gaiman followed up Alan Moore's Miracleman by just ignoring everything, and going back to writing stories about young Mickey Moran who turns into a superhero, and fights supervillains. It would seem like such a step backward.

I think it could work now, that enough time has passed, and an "adult" mystery story featuring the Charlton heroes could work, and just been seen as an Elseworlds type of story, like Kingdom Come, without affecting the future viability of the characters. So I think I'd be interesting in seeing something like that, too. Not a straight rip-off of Watchman, mind you, but some kind of epic story, with all of those heroes together.

[TJKernan]

You mean like

L.A.W.

Oh God, it hurt to even make a joke about that...:eek:

After that monstrosity I am not sure I ever want to see all the Charleton characters together again...

[J.R. LeMar]

Y'know, I heard about L.A.W. a few years ago, so I tracked down the back-issues. I honestly can't remember a single thing about it. That's why I didn't mention it in my last post, because I couldn't even remember the name of the series. So, obviously, it didn't make much of an impression on me.

Nevertheless, I still think a good series could be done. If they stopped making new comics about any superhero who's had a really crappy stories in the past, there wouldn't be any new comics.

[TJKernan]

Well, the sad reality is that nobody seems to really be able to do much good with the Charelton characters on a seperate level, much less putting them all together to make a coherent and fun read.

Don't get me wrong, in the late eighties and early ninties some of the characters were fun (Ted Kord Beetle, Eve in Ostrander's Suicide Squad, Captain Atom in JLI and Extreme Justice, etc, etc...) but somehow, shamefully, they have all been lost along the way.

I'd love to see someone come in and do them all right, maybe with The Ghost, 13 and Jinx and others as well...

[WorstThingUS]

Well, @ the time Watchmen was written, I don't think the Charlton characters had been in use much for awhile, which is why they just sold them to DC. So I doubt that it would've made that big of a difference in terms of any emotional impact of the story, because most readers wouldn't have been any more familiar with Capt. Atom & Blue Beetle than they were with Dr. Manhattan & NiteOwl. I'd never heard of any of them, until DC revamped them (I used to love Cary Bates' Capt. Atom series).

Actually the shock value of seeing a hero you knew dead on the street was part of Alan Moore's initial pitch.


And, in the end, I think that's why it was a better decision to use archetypes instead of the real characters. Because they're weren't well-known, it probably would've been harder for readers to accept new standard superhero stories of those characters, after reading such a powerful story like Watchman. It would be weird to see Blue Beetle go through everything NiteOwl did in Watchman, and then see him in Giffen's JLI going "Bwa-ha-ha!" & cracking one-liners. It would be like if Neil Gaiman followed up Alan Moore's Miracleman by just ignoring everything, and going back to writing stories about young Mickey Moran who turns into a superhero, and fights supervillains. It would seem like such a step backward.

Which was an odd position for DC to take given it had been doing "Imaginary Stories" for 30 years at that point. Superman getting married or dying had no impact on his regular series.

I think it could work now, that enough time has passed, and an "adult" mystery story featuring the Charlton heroes could work, and just been seen as an Elseworlds type of story, like Kingdom Come, without affecting the future viability of the characters. So I think I'd be interesting in seeing something like that, too. Not a straight rip-off of Watchman, mind you, but some kind of epic story, with all of those heroes together.

Not me. I want the straight up Watchmen story the god, er, Alan Moore intended.

[Retro315]

Interesting timing for asking that question, considering that one of the 52 new Multiverses more recently revealed is Earth-4, a Watchmen inspired Earth but with the original Charlton characters, of which Captain Allen Adam, the "Quantum Superman" was just used HEAVILY by Grant Morrison as a secret weapon in the battle against dried up ideas and grim and gritty cliches.

I think paying homage is one thing, like having the Charlton Earth-4 be "inspired" in mood and design a bit by Watchmen, that's fine. But beyond that it's just copying Watchmen, isn't it?

And if they were going to be that blatant about it, they might as well just do a "What If" story that asked "What If We'd Let Alan Moore Use Those Characters?" where they just take Watchmen, and literally have Dave Gibbons, or a classic noirish artist at any rate, pretty much just copy Watchmen only using Captain Atom, Question, Blue Beetle, Nightshade ... Peacemaker and Thunderbolt ... and change the names to those of the original Ditko and Co. characters.

But really, then, that would be pretty pointless, except as a novelty for people who are already fans of Watchmen and know who they were based on.

[Paul Newell]

And it's impossible now as DC no longer has the rights to OzyMandias' "inspiration", Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt.

[WorstThingUS]

And it's impossible now as DC no longer has the rights to OzyMandias' "inspiration", Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt.

Aw, bummer. I mean, it's not like DC ever really did much with them beyond Blue Beetle in the JLA and where are they now? Captain Atom finally became a super-villain, The Question died of cancer, Blue Beetle was shot in the head, haven't seen The Peacemaker since he died in the original Crisis and can't even remember when I last saw Nightshade or Peter Cannon in the DCU.

[Samurai]

Aw, bummer. I mean, it's not like DC ever really did much with them beyond Blue Beetle in the JLA and where are they now? Captain Atom finally became a super-villain, The Question died of cancer, Blue Beetle was shot in the head, haven't seen The Peacemaker since he died in the original Crisis and can't even remember when I last saw Nightshade or Peter Cannon in the DCU.

Nightshade was in the Shadowpact.

[WorstThingUS]

Nightshade was in the Shadowpact.

Explains why I haven't seen her. Thanks.

[J.R. LeMar]

Actually the shock value of seeing a hero you knew dead on the street was part of Alan Moore's initial pitch.

Sure, that's why he'd originally considered using the Archie superheroes (The Shield, The Fly, etc.), & then wanted to use the Charlton characters when he found out that DC had just bought them. But my point is that I don't think that the average reader who had picked up Watchmen @ the time would've really known Blue Beetle & the others well enough for it to be the kind of shock that he wanted.

And he's later said in interviews that it turned out to be better using original characters. I remember him saying that if he'd used The Question, he would've had him as Vic Sage, the anchorman. It wouldn't have occured to him to make The Question some creepy little crazy guy, rambling on the streets. But when he had to create Rorshach, basically from scratch, he was able to come up with many different ideas. Same with Captain Atom vs Dr. Manhatten. Manhatten ended being a much more compelling character.


Which was an odd position for DC to take given it had been doing "Imaginary Stories" for 30 years at that point. Superman getting married or dying had no impact on his regular series..

Well, the difference there was Superman had been a steady character for decades. As I said, the Charlton characters were out of use, and DC hadn't started revamping them yet, so they would've essentially been brand new characters being seen for the first time in Watchman. It's like if the very first time anyone ever heard of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc. it was in Kingdom Come or New Frontier.

That's why I said that a Watchman-like story with the Charlton characters would work now, because the characters have been used enough that it could easily been seen an out-of-continuity tale, & wouldn't effect any future stories.



Not me. I want the straight up Watchmen story the god, er, Alan Moore intended.

Believe me, I'm as big an Alan Moore acolyte as anyone, but we already have Watchman. A "remake" just seem unneccessary.

[Crowforge]

I HATE every watchman character. Why would you want to ruin the real versions of the characters for me?

[WorstThingUS]

Believe me, I'm as big an Alan Moore acolyte as anyone, but we already have Watchman. A "remake" just seem unneccessary.

Yeah, but it'd be fun and god knows Captain Atom drifting from humanity as a near god is seriously more interesting than becoming Monarch

I HATE every watchman character. Why would you want to ruin the real versions of the characters for me?

Obviously because I hate you. Your misery warms my heart. Those cookies you were planning on having? I ate them. The shows you recorded? I erased them. And this is only the beginning...

[Crowforge]

Yeah, but it'd be fun and god knows Captain Atom drifting from humanity as a near god is seriously more interesting than becoming Monarch



Obviously because I hate you. Your misery warms my heart. Those cookies you were planning on having? I ate them. The shows you recorded? I erased them. And this is only the beginning...
Wait you're comcast?

[Matthew E]

Aw, bummer. I mean, it's not like DC ever really did much with them beyond Blue Beetle in the JLA and where are they now? Captain Atom finally became a super-villain, The Question died of cancer, Blue Beetle was shot in the head, haven't seen The Peacemaker since he died in the original Crisis and can't even remember when I last saw Nightshade or Peter Cannon in the DCU.


Peacemaker was a supporting character in the recent Blue Beetle series.

[Xero]

It doesn't work without Thunderbolt (Ozymandias) and DC no longer owns Thunderbolt, the rights reverted to that character's creator.

[sonofsound]

I like this idea, and it had recently occurred to me as well.

I don't think it'd be too obscure, because enough people know about the movie, which is just as many (if not more) than already know about Blue Beetle and Captain Atom (who have been featured in animated shows). Giving Charlton-cum-Watchmen characters an earth of their own is no more obscure than giving one to Kingdom Come, which had lower sales.

If it paid off, Watchmen could be a subconscious template that fuels how things could be in the jaded Charlton-verse, but Didio would probably just stink up the place. But given to the right writers (sic: not G. Morrison), it would be neat to see as a couple one-shots.

[sonofsound]

It doesn't work without Thunderbolt (Ozymandias) and DC no longer owns Thunderbolt, the rights reverted to that character's creator.


They could probably just find another character to replace him with...one of Beetle's "mastermind" villains? (did he have any?)

[Sandy Hausler]

It doesn't work without Thunderbolt (Ozymandias) and DC no longer owns Thunderbolt, the rights reverted to that character's creator.


Geez, how did they let that happen? And how did it happen in the first place? Usually, the company owns the character outright. How did it revert to the creator?

Sandy Hausler

[Crowforge]

I like this idea, and it had recently occurred to me as well.

I don't think it'd be too obscure, because enough people know about the movie, which is just as many (if not more) than already know about Blue Beetle and Captain Atom (who have been featured in animated shows). Giving Charlton-cum-Watchmen characters an earth of their own is no more obscure than giving one to Kingdom Come, which had lower sales.

If it paid off, Watchmen could be a subconscious template that fuels how things could be in the jaded Charlton-verse, but Didio would probably just stink up the place. But given to the right writers (sic: not G. Morrison), it would be neat to see as a couple one-shots.
I've never wished superboy on a world but...

[Guicho]

Who Guards over the Sentinels?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b178/GuitchoYojimbo/Sentinals-Watchmen-Amalgam-Guicho.jpg

The problem is most of these guys are either dead or altered beyond recognition in the DCU proper. Just shows what little foresight DC editorial has.
With all the buzz being generated by the movie, there's bound to be some peripheral interest in what DC is doing with what were once the analogues of the Watchmen.
And the truth is they are doing nothing with them.

[Crowforge]

I don't think it's a problem, I really like the question and I hate Rorschach. I was joking before but I really do think it was for the best not to have the watchmen too closely associated with their analogues.

[carabas]

I don't know, but isn't there an "Earth Watchmen" among the 52? I do distinctly recall a dead ringer for Doc Manhattan being in Superman Beyond.

[JCAll]

So let me get this straight. Most people here, rather than have a reimagining of the Watchimen with the Charlton Characters, with their unique abilities and personalities, running through the now familiar situation, you would all rather have an exact replica of the Watchmen just with Blue Beetle copy/pasted over Nightowl?

Why?

[LtMarvel]

Well, the sad reality is that nobody seems to really be able to do much good with the Charelton characters on a seperate level, much less putting them all together to make a coherent and fun read.

Don't get me wrong, in the late eighties and early ninties some of the characters were fun (Ted Kord Beetle, Eve in Ostrander's Suicide Squad, Captain Atom in JLI and Extreme Justice, etc, etc...) but somehow, shamefully, they have all been lost along the way.

I'd love to see someone come in and do them all right, maybe with The Ghost, 13 and Jinx and others as well...
The Question and Captain Atom series were very good.

[LtMarvel]

Who Guards over the Sentinels?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b178/GuitchoYojimbo/Sentinals-Watchmen-Amalgam-Guicho.jpg

The problem is most of these guys are either dead or altered beyond recognition in the DCU proper. Just shows what little foresight DC editorial has.
With all the buzz being generated by the movie, there's bound to be some peripheral interest in what DC is doing with what were once the analogues of the Watchmen.
And the truth is they are doing nothing with them.
Why is 'Mazing Man in the picture?

[Guicho]

So let me get this straight. Most people here, rather than have a reimagining of the Watchimen with the Charlton Characters, with their unique abilities and personalities, running through the now familiar situation, you would all rather have an exact replica of the Watchmen just with Blue Beetle copy/pasted over Nightowl?

I don't think so. Watchmen is told and done. Unless you're one of those expecting a sequel.

While there's no doubt it would be a challenge to write these characters (especially as a group) in the shadow of Watchmen, they are all distinct enough that something could be done with them.
Like I said there's bound to be some peripheral interest (even if it's to see how different they are.) Over 20 years after the fact there's still people curious about - who were the analogues of the Watchmen? For better or worse it is now part of the shtick of the "Sentinels of Justice", "the L.A.W", "The Justice Battalion" or whatever DC calls them.

Why is 'Mazing Man in the picture?
Cause Zoot Sputnik was unavailable?

[WorstThingUS]

So let me get this straight. Most people here, rather than have a reimagining of the Watchimen with the Charlton Characters, with their unique abilities and personalities, running through the now familiar situation, you would all rather have an exact replica of the Watchmen just with Blue Beetle copy/pasted over Nightowl?

Why?

Uh, because it that's what Alan Moore really wanted to do and it might be interesting to see how it plays out with characters you actually know and might give a crap about. It's one thing to watch Dr. Manhattan kill Rorschach or see The Comedian being thrown out a window, it's quite another to watch Captain Atom kill The Question and see The Peacemaker eat pavement.

[Darrell D.]

Uh, because it that's what Alan Moore really wanted to do and it might be interesting to see how it plays out with characters you actually know and might give a crap about. It's one thing to watch Dr. Manhattan kill Rorschach or see The Comedian being thrown out a window, it's quite another to watch Captain Atom kill The Question and see The Peacemaker eat pavement.

But the story has already been told. What's the point?

[WorstThingUS]

But the story has already been told. What's the point?

I thought I was clear every time I said it, but one more time:

Alan Moore's original vision was to used established characters because it had a greater emotional impact and while Watchmen obviously turned out great I agree that's something that has always been missing. Watching a character you've liked for years descend into something less-than-perfect or die (or both) is quite different from seeing it happen to a character you never heard of much less cared about before.

[carabas]

But the story has already been told. What's the point?Selling books and reliving past glories.
All Batman stories have been told. Multiple times. There is very little point in going on creating new iterations of old Batman stories beyond nostalgia, money, and sheer momentum.

[Guicho]

Uh, because it that's what Alan Moore really wanted to do and it might be interesting to see how it plays out with characters you actually know and might give a crap about. It's one thing to watch Dr. Manhattan kill Rorschach or see The Comedian being thrown out a window, it's quite another to watch Captain Atom kill The Question and see The Peacemaker eat pavement.

I guess I missed the point of this thread then, I have zero interest in seeing the Charlton characters reenact the events of Watchmen, or live out it's consequences.
As has been said Watchmenz been told.
If they wanted to do something new or different with their Charlton analogues, I'd be curious to see that.

[WorstThingUS]

I guess I missed the point of this thread then, I have zero interest in seeing the Charlton characters reenact the events of Watchmen, or live out it's consequences.
As has been said Watchmenz been told.

Even when you posted the picture that perfectly stated it? How odd. But I guess if someone has zero knowledge or attachment to these characters it would seem pointless.

[Darrell D.]

Selling books and reliving past glories.
All Batman stories have been told. Multiple times. There is very little point in going on creating new iterations of old Batman stories beyond nostalgia, money, and sheer momentum.

Ahh. Money. I understand.

[Darrell D.]

double post, dang it.

[Guicho]

Even when you posted the picture that perfectly stated it?
The picture (and my comment) was in jest. Hence the Smiley and blood drop edited (amongst other things) into that pic. And my comment.
Nobody guards over the Sentinels, because at DC the originals are all either dead or altered beyond recognition.
Having them reenact the events of Watchmen though, would be futile. They are and should exist as their own characters.

[WorstThingUS]

Selling books and reliving past glories.
All Batman stories have been told. Multiple times. There is very little point in going on creating new iterations of old Batman stories beyond nostalgia, money, and sheer momentum.

...and if we followed this logic then we would have stopped publishing Batman in the late 70's and had no Dark Knight Returns, nor Batman Year One.

[WorstThingUS]

The picture (and my comment) was in jest. Hence the Smiley and blood drop edited into the pic. And my comment.
Nobody guards over the Sentinels, because at DC they're all either dead or altered beyond recognition.
Having them reenact the events of Watchmen though, would be futile. They are their own characters.

I knew it was meant to be funny, but usually you have to understand to make that kind of joke. But like I said, for it to matter then the Charlton characters have to matter to you.

[JamesJesse]

It might get crazy and before you know it, they'll be shooting Blue Beetle in the head, The Question might die of Cancer and Captain Atom might go mad and try to take over the multiverse.

Or something like that.

[Sandy Hausler]

I thought I was clear every time I said it, but one more time:

Alan Moore's original vision was to used established characters because it had a greater emotional impact and while Watchmen obviously turned out great I agree that's something that has always been missing. Watching a character you've liked for years descend into something less-than-perfect or die (or both) is quite different from seeing it happen to a character you never heard of much less cared about before.

You're assuming that in the 1980s people cared about the Charleston characters, something I doubt. Hardcore comic fans might know who they are, but if Moore had used them instead of his own heroes, I don't think the impact would have been any greater.

Sandy Hausler

[WorstThingUS]

You're assuming that in the 1980s people cared about the Charleston characters, something I doubt. Hardcore comic fans might know who they are, but if Moore had used them instead of his own heroes, I don't think the impact would have been any greater.

Sandy Hausler

To an actual fan of those characters it would have been and still would be. Also, it was perhaps their only chance to immortalized as actual art and a permanent place in pop culture, because the very existence of Monarch (not to mention Beetle's bullet in the brain and The Question's cancer) shows no one's got any really great ideas for them.

[Sandy Hausler]

To an actual fan of those characters it would have been and still would be. Also, it was perhaps their only chance to immortalized as actual art and a permanent place in pop culture, because the very existence of Monarch (not to mention Beetle's bullet in the brain and The Question's cancer) shows no one's got any really great ideas for them.


The large, large number of comic readers, even those who know the characters, would not be emotionally invested in them. If you are talking solely about Charleton fans, it's possible. (Though I imagine that the more likely thoughts of such fans would be something along the lines of "What are you doing to these heroes? Don't you know anything about Captain Atom? Why kill the Peacemaker? The knowledge of the characters might have served to annoy rather than entertain the fans of the Charleton characters.) But the fact is, even without having a real history, Moore made us care about the Watchmen. Pretty impressive.

Sandy Hausler

[Guicho]

I knew it was meant to be funny, but usually you have to understand to make that kind of joke.
Understand what?

But like I said, for it to matter then the Charlton characters have to matter to you.

For what "to matter"?
How about if you don't want to "watch Captain Atom kill The Question and see The Peacemaker eat pavement." exactly like they did in Watchmen, but actually want to see something new or different done with them, then what, (it)they must not "matter to you" ?
Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

[Jolly Mon]

I thought I was clear every time I said it, but one more time:

Alan Moore's original vision was to used established characters because it had a greater emotional impact and while Watchmen obviously turned out great I agree that's something that has always been missing. Watching a character you've liked for years descend into something less-than-perfect or die (or both) is quite different from seeing it happen to a character you never heard of much less cared about before.

Easy solution. Buy up a bunch of cheap Charlton comics off Ebay and a trade paperback copy of Watchmen. Cut out pictures of Blue Beetle, Question, Captain Atom, etc, and paste them over the appropriate characters in the Watchmen book. Happy now? Because that's really what you're talking about.

[Sandy Hausler]

Instead of using the Charlton characters, what if Watchman had been done with standard DC characters.

Dr. Manhattan -- Superman

Rorschach -- Batman (Batman could have been a lot of the characters, but his obsession fits best with Rorschach in my opinion.)

Nite Owl -- Green Arrow (Batman works with him, too, but since he's already being plugged in for Rorschach, I've used GA.)

Silk Spectre -- Black Canary (and her mother is the Golden Age Silk Spectre)

Ozymandias -- Mr. Terrific (either the Golden Age or the Modern version works)

The Comedian -- Joker -- If Marvel had a Punisher-like character, he might fit, but since I can't think of one now, I'm going to have to go with a villain and make him a sort of hero.

I haven't really thought of the minor characters -- Hooded Justice, etc. -- but have fun giving your own ideas.

And if you want an impact, this would be it.

Sandy Hausler

[BeastieRunner]

At the time Watchmen came out, I knew and cared about the Watchmen characters about as much as I knew and cared about the Charlton characters. Which was pretty much zilch and I think that the average comic fan past or present fell in the same boat.

Therefore, I'd say it wouldn't matter to me.

[WorstThingUS]

Easy solution. Buy up a bunch of cheap Charlton comics off Ebay and a trade paperback copy of Watchmen. Cut out pictures of Blue Beetle, Question, Captain Atom, etc, and paste them over the appropriate characters in the Watchmen book. Happy now? Because that's really what you're talking about.

Do it for me and we'll talk...

[Jolly Mon]

Do it for me and we'll talk...

If you buy the comics, I'll do the pasting. :biggrin:

[Black Atom]

Can't we just use our imagination? Isn't the potential drama of the whole scenario unmade by the fact that you know exactly what the characters are going to do since the story has already been written?

[WorstThingUS]

Can't we just use our imagination? Isn't the potential drama of the whole scenario unmade by the fact that you know exactly what the characters are going to do since the story has already been written?

If we're using our imagination, why are we buying comics? Or better yet why see the movie? "Isn't the potential drama of the whole scenario unmade by the fact that you know exactly what the characters are going to since the story has already been written" and you read it 20 years ago?

Now if you'll excuse I have to get to eBay. Some sucker's gonna do a job for me.

[Crowforge]

I buy comics to see the ideas of others.

[Zero Hunter]

The only reason I care about any of the characters now is because of the work done on them in the 80's and early 90's. It was what DC did with Blue Beetle, Nightshade, the Question, and Captain Atom that made me love the characters. Plus Moores story works better with blank slate characters.

[Abraxas]

What Watchmen allowed Moore to do is to use elements that where not in the Charlton characters backstory. Doc Manhattan is more Doctor Solar, Man of the Atom then Cap'n Atom. As Rorschach is more of Steve Ditko's Mr. A then The Question, but those lines would really begin to blur since both are brainchildren of Ditko.

A Watchmen-esque story with the Charlton characters would be a totally different monster. I'd say give it a shot. DC has brought back Jason Todd, "Killed" off Batman, and repeatedly butchered Wonder Woman. Why not leech off Watchmen while they are at it?

[WorstThingUS]

From my lips to God's ear... Well, Morrison anyway, though I know he's god to some

Morrison on his E4 plans with the Charlton characters:

"I’ve just been doing an Earth Four book, which is the Charlton characters but I’ve decided to write it like “Watchmen.” [laughs] So it’s written backwards and sideways and filled with all kinds of symbolism and because of that it’s taking quite a long time to write."

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=20507

[Guicho]

It sounds more like he's saying[laughing] it will be evocative and structurally "like Watchmen". Pushing that to some extreme - "written backwards and sideways and filled with all kinds of symbolism" .

Nowhere does he say he's just going to do something as simple as re-write the same exact story but with Charlton characters.
Why would he? Why would anyone?

Looking forward to what could be a trippy Earth Four book!
Who Guards over the Sentinels of Justice? Grant Morrison:smile:

[Wilder Midnight]

When I was a kid the place to buy comics wasn't the local comic shop...I had to haunt newsstands, the 7-11 and a used book store that kept a new comic rack alongside boxes of quarter back issues. The only comics these places would carry were DC and Marvel (along with Archies and Harvey Comics)...not a problem for me.

I discovered the Charlton Heroes in the weirdest place. The toy department at Woolworths used to sell Charlton Comics...and they used to put price tags on the cover over the price. That alone was enough to weird me out...but the characters themselves. Blue beetle and Captain Atom and Nightshade, the Question and Peacemaker. Not my favorite characters..but the mysteriousness of them really attracted me. Unlike the big two superheroes I knew nothing about these guys, their secret identities, their origins and powers. there was something very mature and secretive about them.

I always felt that these guys would work well as their own group within the DC universe. I know there was a LAW series a few years back that went mostly unnoticed but what I see is a "Secret Six" kind of thing...wit the Charlton characters being in charge of watching over the DCU...keeping an on on things when they get out of hand. Captain Atom would be a behind the scenes kind of guy directing the others in the field, coming out when big power was needed. Blue Beetle would find the scarab that gave the original Beetle his powers and he would develop a split personality sort of thing...going to from the tech weilding Beetle to a powered warrior when needed...and so on. I even see Amanda Waller and Sarge Steel behind the scenes as well.

anyway...i'd love to see a Who Watches the Charlton Characters special just for the sheer fanboy geekiness of it all.

[pariah-1972]

If it was an original story not just "Watchmen with Charlton characters" then sure i might be interested.

That Quote from Morrison? i think he is joking ( i hope) i mean i don't understand why he feels the need to rip off Alan Moore so much, especially when it doesn't work.

[Tanjint]

when else has he ripped off Moore?


-T

[pariah-1972]

when else has he ripped off Moore?


-TJust about all of his work.

[Tanjint]

Just about all of his work.

I'll give you that Invisibles has elements of Watchmen....but so does Justice League Unlimited and 100 Bullets and Civil War and The Boys and tons of other stuff but that doesn't make them rip offs.

also, i'll admit that stylistically Morrison and Moore are quite comparable...but I've never seen Morrison straight rip off Moore.

-T

[pariah-1972]

I'll give you that Invisibles has elements of Watchmen....but so does Justice League Unlimited and 100 Bullets and Civil War and The Boys and tons of other stuff but that doesn't make them rip offs.

also, i'll admit that stylistically Morrison and Moore are quite comparable...but I've never seen Morrison straight rip off Moore.

-TWell whether they are comparable or he's ripping him off is mostly about how someone feels about Morrison's work personally.

[carabas]

I'll give you that Invisibles has elements of Watchmen...I don't see it.

[Tanjint]

That's fine, just lends more credence to the idea that Morrison does not rip off moore.

-T

[shyguy]

I don't think Morrison really rips off Moore. No more so than anybody else, anyway. Every superhero comic published since Watchmen is a reaction to Watchmen on some level, so there's really no escaping engaging his ideas in some way.

It's easy to compare the two since they're both British, they both believe in batshit insane magical nonsense, and they both write subversive stories about superheroes and write lots of metafictional stuff. But I don't think that Morrison particularly rips off Moore.

At any rate, doing some Watchmen-y stuff with the Charleton characters could be cool with the proper sense of humor about it. Like that issue of The Question where he tries acting like Rorschach for a while and decides that Rorschach sucks.

However, Abraxas is right. Some pivotal Watchmen characters really have nothing to do with their Charleton counterparts. Dr. Manhattan is nothing like Captain Atom aside from their origins, Silk Spectre isn't based on Nightshade at all (she's really Black Canary), and Rorschach is actually a take on Mr. A rather than the Question, and even then is vastly different from Mr. A.

It could be interesting to put those characters in the same situations as their Watchmen counterparts and see what happened (again, with liberal humor applied), but I wouldn't trust many writers with that.

[dancj]

Other than his Red Mask issue of Animal Man - which was a blatant Alan Moore homage - I can't see it.

[Seraku]

Well whether they are comparable or he's ripping him off is mostly about how someone feels about Morrison's work personally.

...

I just plain don't see it

[Lemurion]

I still think it means he's going to use similar storytelling techniques - not anything to do with whether the story will be similar or not.

[Will.S]

To an actual fan of those characters it would have been and still would be. Also, it was perhaps their only chance to immortalized as actual art and a permanent place in pop culture, because the very existence of Monarch (not to mention Beetle's bullet in the brain and The Question's cancer) shows no one's got any really great ideas for them.
I don't know, I think there have been a lot of great ideas done with the Question in Denny O'Neil's Question book and Blue Beetle during the JLI stuff.

[WorstThingUS]

I don't know, I think there have been a lot of great ideas done with the Question in Denny O'Neil's Question book and Blue Beetle during the JLI stuff.

My point exactly. A decade ago and eventually they were so lacking in ideas all they could think to do was to kill him. If they just wanted to introduce a new Blue Beetle in Jamie, Ted's heart condition had already opened that door.

[Seraku]

the Question in Denny O'Neil's Question book

"Rorschach Sucks"

[I am MODOK]

I'm excited for this. A multiverse book on the Charlton Earth by Morrison? Sign me up!

[pariah-1972]

Ok when i say "ripping off" they both try to do the same types of "deconstruction" type stories but Alan Moore's are a lot better to understand.

[carabas]

He rips off Alan Moore because he - sometimes, maybe - uses the same literary technique that Moore didn't invent himself in the first place?

[dancj]

Ok when i say "ripping off" they both try to do the same types of "deconstruction" type stories but Alan Moore's are a lot better to understand.
Has Morrison done any deconstruction? Maybe one or two of his Animal Man stories qualify but I can't think of anything else.

[carabas]

Flex Mentallo comes to mind. Maybe Arkham Asylum?

[pariah-1972]

Flex Mentallo comes to mind. Maybe Arkham Asylum?Seven Soldiers doesn't count?

[carabas]

Seven Soldiers doesn't count?Maybe just Bulleteer. Slightly.

[pariah-1972]

Maybe just Bulleteer. Slightly.I was thinking of Frankenstein but i will admit that i don't quite have a handle on what "deconstructed" actually means even tho i looked it up.

[Laurence]

Deconstruction is a lingusitic technique used in literary criticism. Neither Morrison nor Moore nor any comic book writer that I'm aware of has ever touched the stuff.

Usually, when people say "deconstruction" they really mean the writer has challenged fundamental archetypes or conventions. That's if you're lucky. I've been repeatedly told that The Dark Knight Returns is a deconstruction, in which case "deconstruction" means "darkening and grit-ifying."

[Laurence]

Just about all of his work.

Honestly, I can see where this myth comes from. Since Moore got famous first, and the similarity in their backgrounds, there is the assumption Morrison jumped in after him and just beat the horse Moore had already killed.

Until you actually read their books, and find that Morrison is not the least bit interested in an ordered Moore-like structure, and that if there is any thematic similarity they approach it from very, very different angles and often come to different conclusions.

As an example, compare The Invisibles with Promethea. Both about magic, both to some extent about anarchy (the Invisibles obviously moreso). But you should really be able to read it and tell who wrote what without having to look at the byline. Moore is exact, definite; Morrison chaotic, with a challenging narrative. In many ways they are opposites.

[dancj]

Flex Mentallo comes to mind. Maybe Arkham Asylum?
Arkham Asylum probably does qualify. I don't think Flex Mentallo does at all.

And yeah I would say TDKR is deconstruction. It challenged a lot of the superhero conventions that were just generally accepted up till then.

[Laurence]

And yeah I would say TDKR is deconstruction. It challenged a lot of the superhero conventions that were just generally accepted up till then.

I can't imagine what you might possibly mean by this. As I said, deconstruction is a very esoteric philosophical/intellectual procedure. Fittingly enough in this context, it's about the difficulty of expressing anything through language.

What Miller did is throw a few of the early Bob Kane comics through his usual Clint Eastwood-lite blender, and add a Reagan character to fool people into thinking it was political commentary.

[dancj]

Maybe I understand it wrong, but my understanding of Superhero Deconstruction was that it was about challenging the rules of superheroes and pointing out the inconsistencies in them.

TDKR certainly did this.

[Tanjint]

there is a level of deconstruction to all the works we're talking about, some more than others. i take deconstruction to mean stories that don't take for granted the internal logic of a genre but explores and questions it before launching a story with the trope and fundamentals as basis

-T

[Hawk_fan]

I'd like to see the "Charlton" branch of heroes as a team. Done Right!

I don't think DC's heart was really in it when they green-lighted the L.A.W. mini. Bob Layton was trying to bring back the original concepts of the characters, but made the mistake of adding new elements as well. Nightshade, for instance, was drastically changed and became no emotion Zebra Woman. :eek:

Also, Geoff Johns handled the character of Tiger better than Layton. Tiger looked more menacing in JSofA, than his Avatar version in The L.A.W.

I hope DC can really bring back these characters and gives us a good updated take to their original concepts.

Sarge Steel - He needs to stop getting captured and being everybody's punching bag. I see him more like Gibs from NCIS.

Captain Atom - I like to see him more like his late series. A military man with a good sense of wrong and right.

Nightshade - I liked her in Suicide Squad and her brief appearance in Superman/Batman. Let's see her more like her secret agent days and less like Shadowpact.

Blue Beetle - Ted is a Batman/Spider-Man combo to me. Humor, brains and agility. It's time for his return!

Peacemaker - The James Bond of the group IMO. Never cared for the bit of insanity that DC introduced with him. If this new guy is suppose to be the original than let's see him back in the costume (with a updated helmet of course). Checkmate would've been a great fit for him if it wasn't cancelled.

The Question - Vic Sage is the one and only Question for me. I'll wait for his return as well.

Judomaster - I prefer Rip, but I do like the new female version. However, it would be interesting if Tom Jaggar wanted to claim his father's heroic name for himself some day.

[Sonos]

Not that it's an original insight of mine, but one of the things I like about comics (moreso in good literature) is that they usually have the sense to leave the really good stuff alone. More than TV, Movies and Video Games at least.

Heck, thats probably more because of lawyers though than the publishers. :mad:

A redo of Watchmen would probably make me more sad than happy so i'm cool with it as is.