I thought it was an possum, but...

[Hurricane]

Warning: Vert horrible and sad story to follow.

So this morning at a little before 6am I was awakened by my dog (the full blooded pit bull who sleeps in the house with me) barking. When I got up, I heard the dog outside (who is a pit/boxer mix) fighting with something so I got dressed and stepped outside. I through the front door where there is an enclosed fenced in area in case it was something that would try and come after me. It was still kind of dark so I couldn't see what it was from inside the fence, but I could tell that there was some kind of critter sitting in the grass that my dog was barking at and every now and then it would lunge at him. I decided that since what ever it was was small, that I would go have a closer look at it. I grabbed my pellet gun on the way out (just in case) and headed out the back door. I approached slowly (still not knowing what it was) and saw a what appeared to be either a large possum or a coon and I could also hear it growling at the dog. Possums and coons both kill my chickens so I was ok with the dog killing it instead and I gave the dog some encouragement. The dog lunged at it and the thing attacked back and put up one hell of a fight. The dog grabbed it for the "death shake" and this thing was still holding it's own against my dog and fought it's way out of his mouth! It was starting to get a little lighter outside, but I still couldn't see for sure what the critter was. When the dog picked the thing up a second time for the "death shake" and I heard it make a sound other than growling for the first time is when I realized, much to my horror, what it was.

Unfortunately, it was too late for the VERY brave 35lb. house cat that had wondered into my yard and refused to run away when confronted by an angry dog.

A third "death shake" and it was over.

I don't feel bad so much for the fact that the dog killed the cat, but I do feel terrible about having encouraged the dog to do so even though I didn't know at the time it was really a really big cat and not a big possum or coon. The fact that I saw the whole mess go down is kind of disturbing as well.

[section 8]

Come to think of it, Very few stories that begin with the words "I thought it was a possum, but" ever end well.

Don't beat yourself up.

[Darediva]

I really wish you hadn't posted this story. And now I can't un-read it and it's going to give me nightmares. :frown:

[Flâneur]

Warning: Vert horrible and sad story to follow.

So this morning at a little before 6am I was awakened by my dog (the full blooded pit bull who sleeps in the house with me) barking. When I got up, I heard the dog outside (who is a pit/boxer mix) fighting with something so I got dressed and stepped outside. I through the front door where there is an enclosed fenced in area in case it was something that would try and come after me. It was still kind of dark so I couldn't see what it was from inside the fence, but I could tell that there was some kind of critter sitting in the grass that my dog was barking at and every now and then it would lunge at him. I decided that since what ever it was was small, that I would go have a closer look at it. I grabbed my pellet gun on the way out (just in case) and headed out the back door. I approached slowly (still not knowing what it was) and saw a what appeared to be either a large possum or a coon and I could also hear it growling at the dog. Possums and coons both kill my chickens so I was ok with the dog killing it instead and I gave the dog some encouragement. The dog lunged at it and the thing attacked back and put up one hell of a fight. The dog grabbed it for the "death shake" and this thing was still holding it's own against my dog and fought it's way out of his mouth! It was starting to get a little lighter outside, but I still couldn't see for sure what the critter was. When the dog picked the thing up a second time for the "death shake" and I heard it make a sound other than growling for the first time is when I realized, much to my horror, what it was.

Unfortunately, it was too late for the VERY brave 35lb. house cat that had wondered into my yard and refused to run away when confronted by an angry dog.

A third "death shake" and it was over.

I don't feel bad so much for the fact that the dog killed the cat, but I do feel terrible about having encouraged the dog to do so even though I didn't know at the time it was really a really big cat and not a big possum or coon. The fact that I saw the whole mess go down is kind of disturbing as well.

Blood lust like that is just not cool. It's poor form that you thought it was awesome that your dog was killing and mutilating something, just because it annoyed you. You only feel guilty now because it was someone's pet that you wanted to die?

Epic fail.

[Hurricane]

I really wish you hadn't posted this story. And now I can't un-read it and it's going to give me nightmares. :frown:

At least you didn't watch it happen.

And can someone change the headline to "a possum" instead of "an possum" before Sally sees it and kicks my ass.

[BnL]

Sorry, but I'm not so sure he shouldn't beat himself up over it. I know that I would feel terrible about it, personally. That could have been someone's beloved pet. Simply grabbing a flashlight would have prevented the whole thing.

[Darediva]

Sally kicking your ass for a grammatical mistake should be the least of your concerns here. If I were the owner of the cat, and read what you just posted, I would call someone about having you arrested for siccing your dog on the cat.

[Grazzt]

Reminds me of an incident with a cat in my neighbourhood. I had noticed a cat hanging around down the street. I've seen rabbits in the neighbourhood before, and I was hoping the cat would go away so that the rabbits wouldn't get hunted down and eaten. The very next morning, I saw it on the road, its intestines spread out over a few feet and a couple of crows picking at it. Stupid as that may sound, I still feel a little guilty, in a "careful what you wish for" sort of way.

[Hurricane]

Blood lust like that is just not cool. It's poor form that you thought it was awesome that your dog was killing and mutilating something, just because it annoyed you. You only feel guilty now because it was someone's pet that you wanted to die?

Epic fail.

I never said I thought it was awesome. When you own livestock and make money off of it, you have to protect it from pest animals that will come in and kill and eat it which in turn costs you money.

[Hurricane]

Sally kicking your ass for a grammatical mistake should be the least of your concerns here. If I were the owner of the cat, and read what you just posted, I would call someone about having you arrested for siccing your dog on the cat.

First of all, I didn't know it was a cat at the time. Secondly, it was on my property. I've had my own animals shot or otherwise killed for being on someone else's property. When you live in a rural area, there is a different code for things like that.

[Flâneur]

I never said I thought it was awesome. When you own livestock and make money off of it, you have to protect it from pest animals that will come in and kill and eat it which in turn costs you money.

There's a difference between giving way to the practically of it and inciting violence. When you're actively wanting something like that then there's a problem.

[section 8]

Blood lust like that is just not cool. It's poor form that you thought it was awesome that your dog was killing and mutilating something, just because it annoyed you. You only feel guilty now because it was someone's pet that you wanted to die?

Epic fail.

It's called "The Food Chain"

Deal with it.

[Hurricane]

Sorry, but I'm not so sure he shouldn't beat himself up over it. I know that I would feel terrible about it, personally. That could have been someone's beloved pet. Simply grabbing a flashlight would have prevented the whole thing.

The only flashlight handy had a dead battery and the porch light didn't go that far.

[Hurricane]

There's a difference between giving way to the practically of it and inciting violence. When you're actively wanting something like that then there's a problem.

It's not something that I want to happen. What I want to happen is that varmints not kill and eat my chickens. They do anyway so what is necessary to happen is eliminate the varmints. It's no different than killing a mouse should one find its way into your house.

[Darediva]

I refer you to http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusarst5_62_101.htm, Hurricane. You are mistaken about "rural areas" being different.

[section 8]

I refer you to this page (http://http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusarst5_62_101.htm), Hurricane. You are mistaken about "rural areas" being different.

Can't find server

[Flâneur]

It's called "The Food Chain"

Deal with it.

LOL

You live out a childhood in rural Australia and come back to me about dealing with the almighty Food Chain.

.
It's not something that I want to happen. What I want to happen is that varmints not kill and eat my chickens. They do anyway so what is necessary to happen is eliminate the varmints. It's no different than killing a mouse should one find its way into your house.

I was ok with the dog killing it instead and I gave the dog some encouragement.
Right.

[Darediva]

Can't find server Try it again. Link fixed. http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusarst5_62_101.htm (http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusarst5_62_101.htm)

[Hurricane]

.

[/B]
Right.

Encouragement to kill the coon or possum because they cost me money. Did you not read the rest of my posts?

[Flâneur]

Encouragement to kill the coon or possum because they cost me money. Did you not read the rest of my posts?

Oh, I did. It's not something you want to happen, it's just something you wanted to happen. Right. I'm sure you seemed regretful when you were encouraging your dog to do something you didn't want to happen. Right?

[BnL]

The only flashlight handy had a dead battery and the porch light didn't go that far.

From the sounds of it, there was probably another flashlight around somewhere in the house. I just couldn't imagine A) risking my dog's safety by encouraging it to fight a potentially dangerous wild animal unless absolutely necessary, and B) siccing my dog on another animal without being sure I knew what it was, and exhausting other options before I even considered that. I mean, shooting it with the pellet gun would have probably startled it enough to make it run off. Not the most humane solution, but at least it'd still be alive. I also don't think it's justifiable just because other overzealous neighbors have killed peoples' pets before. I'm sorry, but I really think you just handled this poorly.

[Hurricane]

I refer you to http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusarst5_62_101.htm, Hurricane. You are mistaken about "rural areas" being different.

No, I'm not.

At common law, if your livestock or other pet or animal gets loose and creates property loss on someone else's property, you liable for any damages the beast might have done and they have the right to shoot or kill the animal without legal repercussions.

This is the strict liability law.

If it happened within the other person's property lines, its just a damn shame, and nothing more.

[Hurricane]

From the sounds of it, there was probably another flashlight around somewhere in the house. I just couldn't imagine A) risking my dog's safety by encouraging it to fight a potentially dangerous wild animal unless absolutely necessary, and B) siccing my dog on another animal without being sure I knew what it was, and exhausting other options before I even considered that. I mean, shooting it with the pellet gun would have probably startled it enough to make it run off. Not the most humane solution, but at least it'd still be alive. I also don't think it's justifiable just because other overzealous neighbors have killed peoples' pets before. I'm sorry, but I really think you just handled this poorly.

I will admit that having been woken up before the crack of dawn after working late the night prior that I didn't handle the situation as well as I probably could have had it taken place in the middle of the day and I was thinking clearly.

[Hurricane]

Oh, I did. It's not something you want to happen, it's just something you wanted to happen. Right. I'm sure you seemed regretful when you were encouraging your dog to do something you didn't want to happen. Right?

It's obvious that you can't understand being in a situation where you pour hundreds or even thousands of dollars into feeding and raising livestock only to have all of that money wasted when the livestock is killed by pest animals.

Let me ask you this: If your house had rats or mice in it, would you not kill them?

[Flâneur]

It's obvious that you can't understand being in a situation where you pour hundreds or even thousands of dollars into feeding and raising livestock only to have all of that money wasted when the livestock is killed by pest animals.

Let me ask you this: If your house had rats or mice in it, would you not kill them?

lol, as someone who wasn't bloodthirsty enough to cheer on their dog when it killed the snakes that were about to attack me on multiple occasions, I think I know about risking things.

And no, actually. When I bred birds, rats and mice were a massive problem but we used humane cages. Similarly, when possums (not opossums, mind you) ran rampant in our roof to the point that things were damaged, we didn't kill them either. Human cages were used there too.

[Mermaid]

It's obvious that you can't understand being in a situation where you pour hundreds or even thousands of dollars into feeding and raising livestock only to have all of that money wasted when the livestock is killed by pest animals.

Let me ask you this: If your house had rats or mice in it, would you not kill them?

Hurricane I can see that you would want to protect your livestock, but you should want to be doing that the most humane way. Not set your dog on an animal to rip it apart, regardless if it was a cat or not.
By training your dog to attack something it will think that it's a good thing to do. Next time it might be a child.
You did the wrong thing, I don't think you'll find any sympathy to ease your mind here.

[Cam63]

I can't sympathise, Hurricane.

You should've checked what animal it was before siccing your dog on it.

[section 8]

lol, as someone who wasn't bloodthirsty enough to cheer on their dog when it killed the snakes that were about to attack me on multiple occasions, I think I know about risking things.

You mean you didn't kill them yourself?

Tsk Tsk and to think you tried to play the "Aussie" card

[Flâneur]

You mean you didn't kill them yourself?

Tsk Tsk and to think you tried to play the "Aussie" card

Well, I was seven the first time I remember it. The dog almost ripped the snakes head off and I had barely noticed the snake was right there until the dog dealt with it.

It's only my mother who ever used the axe and shovel.

[Hurricane]

lol, as someone who wasn't bloodthirsty enough to cheer on their dog when it killed the snakes that were about to attack me on multiple occasions, I think I know about risking things.



I didn't cheer him on.


Also, I didn't come here for sympathy. I simply had a story to tell and I told it. Your opinions are all welcome, but it will not change how I feel about the situation. Had it been a possum or coon, I would have felt completely justified in killing it or having the dog kill it. Anyone else from around here would have done the same thing. Dogs are used to protect your property and livestock from predators other destructive entities. My closest neighbors use great pyrenees to protect their goats and horses. My parents use a german shepherd to protect their horses. I'm sorry that none of you understand that, but I am someone who has been raised nearly my entire life on a farm and dealing with others within the farming community.

I said I felt bad that it ended up being a cat instead and I still do.

[Flâneur]

I didn't cheer him on.


Also, I didn't come here for sympathy. I simply had a story to tell and I told it. Your opinions are all welcome, but it will not change how I feel about the situation. Had it been a possum or coon, I would have felt completely justified in killing it or having the dog kill it. Anyone else from around here would have done the same thing. Dogs are used to protect your property and livestock from predators other destructive entities. My closest neighbors use Mastiffs to protect their goats and horses. My parents use a german shepherd to protect their horses. I'm sorry that none of you understand that, but I am someone who has been raised nearly my entire life on a farm and dealing with others within the farming community.

I said I felt bad that it ended up being a cat instead and I still do.

Just because we don't agree and don't sympathise doesn't mean no one understands the notion.

[Hurricane]

Just because we don't agree and don't sympathise doesn't mean no one understands the notion.

Well then it's a good thing none of you raise livestock then because you'd all be starving to death from wasting all your money.

I assume you're all vegetarians as well, correct?

[Mermaid]

I understand the need to protect the livestock......just not encouragement of the dog to hurt and kill something.
Hurricane you said you had a gun, if you thought it was a rodent you should have used that and out it out of its misery fast, not let your dog rip it apart. I actually feel quite ill thinking about it.

[Hurricane]

I understand the need to protect the livestock......just not encouragement of the dog to hurt and kill something.
Hurricane you said you had a gun, if you thought it was a rodent you should have used that and out it out of its misery fast, not let your dog rip it apart. I actually feel quite ill thinking about it.

I had a pellet gun which, at best, would have given it several small stinging sensations while it was being killed by the dog.

[Flâneur]

Well then it's a good thing none of you raise livestock then because you'd all be starving to death from wasting all your money.

I assume you're all vegetarians as well, correct?

Assumption much? My life, but not my livelihood, had been at risk in those situations and I know all about raising and selling animals and protecting them from pests. I don't need to depend on livestock as my sole income to know you could be just a tad more humane about it than encouraging your animals to kill and mutilate whatever happens upon your property. You don't need to be the grim reaper's cheer team, even if you have to be pragmatic about some things.

[section 8]

Well then it's a good thing none of you raise livestock then because you'd all be starving to death from wasting all your money.

I assume you're all vegetarians as well, correct?

I wonder if they'd be so quick to condemn if this had been a Boar or a Coyote that had been killing the livestock.

[Hurricane]

Assumption much? My life, but not my livelihood, had been at risk in those situations and I know all about raising and selling animals and protecting them from pests. I don't need to depend on livestock as my sole income to know you could be just a tad more humane about it than encouraging your animals to kill and mutilate whatever happens upon your property. You don't need to be the grim reaper's cheer team, even if you have to be pragmatic about some things.

Assumption much? The extent or level of encouragement I provided you can't possibly know because you weren't there. You keep saying that I cheered the dog on which is NOT what I said. I gave the dog some encouragement for doing his job which in this case was holding the animal off while I made my way across the yard to where they were. That is not the same thing as being a cheerleader or cheering him on.

[Hurricane]

From the sounds of it, there was probably another flashlight around somewhere in the house.

Wrong. I only own one flashlight which I rarely use (hence the dead batteries).

I mean, shooting it with the pellet gun would have probably startled it enough to make it run off. Not the most humane solution, but at least it'd still be alive.

If getting attacked by a much larger animal wasn't enough to make it run off, why would the slight stinging sensation from a pellet to the ass do it?

[BnL]

Wrong. I only own one flashlight which I rarely use (hence the dead batteries).

Not such a good idea, if you have a lot of pests attacking your livestock. I hope after this, you'll fix that situation.

If getting attacked by a much larger animal wasn't enough to make it run off, why would the slight stinging sensation from a pellet to the ass do it?

From your description, it sounded like the dog and cat were not fighting by the time you arrived, they were just at a standoff. Sometimes all an animal needs is a little distraction to get them out of an aggressive state of mind. Obviously, AFTER the dog had the cat in it's mouth, it was going to fight for it's life.

[BnL]

I wonder if they'd be so quick to condemn if this had been a Boar or a Coyote that had been killing the livestock.

Well, wonder no more!

Nothing was killing the livestock in this case, it was just a cat, so the comparison is off. And I still don't like the idea of encouraging your dog to attack another animal when there are other options, but at least a boar or coyote would have a fighting chance against a pit bull.

[Hurricane]

Not such a good idea, if you have a lot of pests attacking your livestock. I hope after this, you'll fix that situation.

I will, but this is also the purpose of the dog.


From your description, it sounded like the dog and cat were not fighting by the time you arrived, they were just at a standoff. Sometimes all an animal needs is a little distraction to get them out of an aggressive state of mind. Obviously, AFTER the dog had the cat in it's mouth, it was going to fight for it's life.

They were fighting before I came out, that is what got the inside dog excited and also prompted me to go outside. If the dog had simply been barking, my inside dog would not have gotten excited and I would not have gotten out of bed, but I could hear the fight and that's why I went out in the first place.

[Hurricane]

Well, wonder no more!

Nothing was killing the livestock in this case, it was just a cat, so the comparison is off. And I still don't like the idea of encouraging your dog to attack another animal when there are other options, but at least a boar or coyote would have a fighting chance against a pit bull.

I think he was referring to some of the other posts suggesting that I should try to humanely catch coons and possums and move them to another location rather than kill them.

[veracity]

I'm on the side of the fence where you're wrong. Not only for the numerous reasons listed (and no, I don't make my money on a farm, but oh, hey look at that, I have family that raised pigs and chickens for food) but because, really, that's a shitty thing to do to the dog. My stepdad's outside dog T-Bone (Border Collie mix) will kill any cat or possum that comes in the yard. That's just as bad as what you did. If you're having varmit trouble, this nifty invention called the internet could probably show you a way that will keep the animals away and not cause your dog to be triggered into that level of aggression, which can easily escalate at the wrong time and place - even moreso, like say with a toddler. And encouragment is cheering something on.

Sorry, but you were in the wrong for allowing the dog to kill the cat in such an aggressive manner when you could have shot it with the pellet gun. I've shot those kind of guns and there's enough of a pop the cat would have run off. And just what the pit breed needs! More bad press! Good job. And if that had been my cat? You'd be sporting a bandaged knee cap. Anyone that tries to hurt my cats? Hell to the naw.

[Hurricane]

Sorry, but you were in the wrong for allowing the dog to kill the cat in such an aggressive manner when you could have shot it with the pellet gun. I've shot those kind of guns and there's enough of a pop the cat would have run off. Just what the breed needs! More bad press! Good job. And if that had been my cat? You'd be sporting a bandaged knee cap. Anyone that tries to hurt my cats? Hell to the naw.

Once again, if being attacked by a much larger, angry dog wasn't enough to scare the cat away, a simple pellet gun wouldn't have been enough either.

And I'm sorry for giving mixed breed mutts a bad name.

As to the rest of your complaint, it is the job of a farm dog to keep varmints out of the yard and away from the livestock. Most of the time, the mere presence of the dog is enough to scare away whatever critter is lurking about, but if that isn't enough, the growling and barking will usually scare them away. The dog will simply run whatever it is away and that is that. However, this cat either being extremely stupid or extremely brave decided to stand there and try to fight the dog. The dog would not have killed it had it simply ran away, he was just protecting his territory as it is his job to do. Since the cat decided to try and fight, THIS triggered the dog's "next level" of protection which was to kill the intruder.

[Jae Namkyoung]

Hurricane. I live in Texas. I understand the livestock thing. However... we don't usually just allow a dog to kill something. Even if it had been a rodent, or racoon, there's still a more humane way to do it. By the way, the farm dog is suppose to help his masters, not kill. Also, please read this. http://www.sspca.org/Dogs/AggressiveBehavior.html

Turn to the next page, and what you did was encouragement, your dog's behavior may progress. It may not, just saying you may want to be careful because even though your dog is a pet, its still a dog. While yes, you have to protect your livestock, and such.

By the way, the cat may have been wandering and had no intention of getting into a fight, but it may have felt the need to defend himself. Still, I understand what your getting at Hurricane. I'm just saying, there could've been a much better way to handle this situation.

[Hurricane]

*sigh*

If my story had been "My dog killed a possum," I wouldn't be getting attacked by everyone.

I guarantee it.

Because possums are disgusting, creepy, ugly little things and kitties are cute and cuddly.

Whatever, I'm just tired of all the hate.

[Mermaid]

*sigh*

If my story had been "My dog killed a possum," I wouldn't be getting attacked by everyone.

I guarantee it.

Because possums are disgusting, creepy, ugly little things and kitties are cute and cuddly.

Whatever, I'm just tired of all the hate.

Hurricane, people arn't hating on you, they're hating on your actions. There is a difference. You can love someone but it don't mean you gotta agree with something they've done.

[BnL]

Hurricane, I just thought I'd let you know that I do like you. So please, don't take my disapproval over this incident as a condemnation of you as a person.

[Solaris]

There's a difference between giving way to the practically of it and inciting violence. When you're actively wanting something like that then there's a problem.

I don't understand your point. He's already said that he sicced the dog, giving it encouragement to attack what he *thought* was a predator animal of a type that had been killing his livestock. On a farm, dogs aren't just pets---they're working partners, and in the case of predator animals, they're expected to help defend home and property.

That's not "inciting violence" or an enjoyment of bloodlust---it's merely encouraging the dog to carry out his part of the farm work, helping to protect the livestock from predator animals. He wasn't saying "whoo-hoo!" or giving a graphic description of the dog killing the cat like it was a pro wrestling match... he just said that he thought it was a possum or raccoon, that these animals had been preying on his chickens, so he encouraged the dog to fight the animal. I promise you, that's *normal* on a farm, and for a farmer: you tend to protect your livestock, and you expect your dogs to do the same.

Putting it another way: farmers keep cats to help catch mice and rats that get into and eat food stores. Encouraging your cat to go after a mouse you see running along the outside of your storage building isn't bloodthirsty, it's normal. Cats have been hunting mice and rats for owners for thousands of years---and in many places, that's still seen as the cat's job---the cat is seen as much as a work animal as a pet.

I'm honestly baffled at why the thought of encouraging your dog to do his work (though it means attempting to kill or run off a predator animal) is a bad thing. The only way it would be bad would be if he was encouraging it to go after something that could kill the dog, like a bear or a mountain lion. The only time it's okay for a work dog to go after a dangerous predator like that is if their owner (or owner's family) is in danger of being attacked by said bear or mountain lion... and even then, it's heart-wrenching---so much so that some owners *still* won't call the dog for help, if the dog is around.

So it turned out to be a cat, rather than a possum or raccoon. I can understand feeling sad about it... but there's a possibility no one's mentioned yet: the cat may well have been feral.

Feral dogs and cats are a real danger---and you see them far more often in the country than in the city. Feral dogs will "pack up," and feral cats will attack people's house cats, sometimes their dogs, and even sometimes their children or even an adult. The danger from feral cats isn't just the attack damage, but also disease, including and especially rabies.

Hurricane, if you haven't disposed of the body, you may want to have it checked for rabies, even if you keep your dog vaccinated (and I hope you DO). And handle the body wearing disposable rubber gloves, in case the cat *was* infected with rabies.

Rabid animals don't always show the classic signs (i.e. foaming at the mouth, staggering, etc.). Those symptoms tend to come near the end of the disease, and can "come and go" as well. Which means an animal that *seemed* normal can still be infected, and can infect other animals and people.

The local shelter will probably test the cat's remains for you, if you take them in.

[section 8]

Well, wonder no more!

Nothing was killing the livestock in this case, it was just a cat, so the comparison is off. And I still don't like the idea of encouraging your dog to attack another animal when there are other options, but at least a boar or coyote would have a fighting chance against a pit bull.

The comparison is not "Off" he has already said he mistook the cat for a possum, that WAS killing the livestock. I guess you can try and fault him for not knowing everything, but i wouldn't recommend it.

Although the comparison may not be that accurate after all,
I mean, if I were in hurricane's shoes, and it HAD been a Coyote or a Boar the cause of death would have been "Lead Poisoning", not a dog bite

[Lester C.]

The comparison is not "Off" he has already said he mistook the cat for a possum, that WAS killing the livestock. I guess you can try and fault him for not knowing everything, but i wouldn't recommend it.

Although the comparison may not be that accurate after all,
I mean, if I were in hurricane's shoes, and it HAD been a Coyote or a Boar the cause of death would have been "Lead Poisoning", not a dog bite

He doesn't have a gun, which is unusual being where he is. This story is a tragedy, but having spent a year of my childhood is Mississippi I can attest that nothing Hurricane did here is unusual or immoral. Judging him is similar to being an ethnocentric in a foreign country.

[section 8]

He doesn't have a gun, which is unusual being where he is. This story is a tragedy, but having spent a year of my childhood is Mississippi I can attest that nothing Hurricane did here is unusual or immoral. Judging him is similar to being an ethnocentric in a foreign country.

Wouldn't be unusual or immoral. in South Carolina either.

[BnL]

The comparison is not "Off" he has already said he mistook the cat for a possum, that WAS killing the livestock. I guess you can try and fault him for not knowing everything, but i wouldn't recommend it.

I'm aware of the fact that he thought it was a possum. Ya know, because I've been reading the thread? But it wasn't a possum. It was a cat, which was not killing livestock. I fail to see how knowing what kind of animal you're telling your dog to kill can be construed as "knowing everything." It's not a minor detail, it's the crux of this whole thing. I just think that the situation could have been handled better, that's all.

[Solaris]

Hurricane I can see that you would want to protect your livestock, but you should want to be doing that the most humane way. Not set your dog on an animal to rip it apart, regardless if it was a cat or not.
By training your dog to attack something it will think that it's a good thing to do. Next time it might be a child.
You did the wrong thing, I don't think you'll find any sympathy to ease your mind here.

Now this raises a more valid point---dogs accustomed to fighting are, on average, a bit more likely to attack a human. A lot of it depends on the individual dog, but a lot can also depend on the dog's breed. Dog breeds that were bred for fighting tend to take to aggression easier, and have a harder time letting go of it. There are always exceptions within *any* breed, of course... and training and how you treat your dog can have an effect as well.

As for the "humane caging"---how effective, and how costly is it? And, honestly, while I have a hard time killing an animal myself, said animal in the wild (be it mouse, possum, etc.) faces death on a daily basis, because there are always other predators out there willing to go for it... if there weren't, the population would explode and then a lot of them would starve. To quote [paraphrase] Frank Herbert: "The greatest survival threat to a creature is another creature of its species." That's because they're directly competing for the same food, same shelter, same mates, etc. Herbert was right about that, in the animal kingdom.

Getting back to the "humane trap" thing, IMO it's a personal call... because the reality is, these creatures *are* facing death every day. If you don't kill that mouse, a hawk might, or an owl, or a snake---to the mouse, you're one more predator among many. The fastest, most wary, best equipped to survive tend to do so, whether they're facing an owl or a mousetrap.

I fence my garden against our local rabbits. I love seeing them come in the yard to graze, but I also don't want them eating my veggies. Our dogs are sometimes out in the yard, and the bunnies run the risk of the dogs catching them (though they haven't yet). If our dogs do catch and kill one, I'll be a bit sad to see it dead, but at the same time, I accept it as part of life.

If we had a real problem with the rabbits eating our garden out, and I put up a ton of fencing and other measures and it wasn't effective, I'd be more active at hunting bunnies. If I did the "humane trap" thing, the question becomes "Okay, I caught this one---what do I do with it? How far away do I have to drive from my home to release it? Is it fair to release it in another neighborhood---won't that just add to *those* people's potential problem with bunnies eating *their* veggies?"

And, if I manage to find a supposedly "wild" area to release him in, I'm putting him in a new location where he knows nothing of the area, knows nothing of where to hide. He has no burrow there. There may be a ton of extra predators there, and no other rabbits around for him to mate with. He may die to a snake or hawk or owl within five minutes of me putting him out---or he may get run over by a passing car. Or, he may add to what's already a too big population of rabbits---or maybe the rabbits there have a disease, and he catches it and dies too.

If I'm tender-hearted, catching, transporting, and releasing the rabbit into a different area may make *me* feel better---but the rabbit might see it differently. And, many animals have an amazing "homing" instinct---he may well show back up at our place in a couple of days... or he might get run over or killed by a predator en route.

And if I have ten rabbits all getting into my veggies, the numbers can be a problem, too---the more there are getting into the garden, the more they eat. If fencing, and/or other deterrents don't work, you gotta do something.

I look at it this way: if you're a wild animal that does damage (eating crops or food or livestock, and/or gnawing through walls etc., and/or carrying disease), you've got your place to live and I have mine. If you come into my place, you're fair game. I may or may not kill said animal (most of the time I'd prefer to deter it or drive it off), but coming into my home is a risk the animal chose to run. Same goes for bugs, etc. Predators that *eat* pesky bugs, like spiders, will often get transplanted unless they're poisonous, or they bite me, or they keep finding their way back to a spot where I don't want them (like the one that kept coming back to my front door to spin his web---I got tired of walking into it).

It's harder to kill a mouse than a spider or cockroach, for me... but I've done both, when needed. The only kind of critter that I absolutely wouldn't kill would be stuff like birds of prey, wolves, etc. because they're endangered (and I love 'em)---the only reason I'd go for one of them would be if they were directly attacking me, my family, or our pets... and with both those types, that's extremely rare (and I'd prefer to try to drive them off, if possible, than to try to kill them). I've got a better chance of getting hit by lightning than I do of getting attacked by either of those, unless the animal is rabid.

[section 8]

I'm aware of the fact that he thought it was a possum. Ya know, because I've been reading the thread? But it wasn't a possum. It was a cat, which was not killing livestock. I fail to see how knowing what kind of animal you're telling your dog to kill can be construed as "knowing everything." It's not a minor detail, it's the crux of this whole thing. I just think that the situation could have been handled better, that's all.

Hindsight is 20/20

I probably would have gone the pellet gun route myself, mainly because i wouldn't want my dog being injured or killed by a mystery creature, nor would i want to have to clean the blood off of the Pit.

But the cat died because of mistaken identity, several people on this thread seem to think he tracked it down and fed it to his dog.

[BnL]

Hindsight is 20/20

I probably would have gone the pellet gun route myself, mainly because i wouldn't want my dog being injured or killed by a mystery creature, nor would i want to have to clean the blood off of the Pit.

But the cat died because of mistaken identity, several people on this thread seem to think he tracked it down and fed it to his dog.

You're right, it's unfair to judge in retrospect. Personally, I'd like to think that I'd have found a non-fatal solution, but I understand that it was a chaotic situation.

[Jae Namkyoung]

Same here, I understand what Hurricane's saying and I am in agreement with BnL. There just could've been a better way to handle it, that's all.

[section 8]

Same here, I understand what Hurricane's saying and I am in agreement with BnL. There just could've been a better way to handle it, that's all.

i understand and maybe he will handle it different next time, thanks to the trauma of the cats death.

I think maybe he feels bad enough without the chastising.

[Solaris]

I'm aware of the fact that he thought it was a possum. Ya know, because I've been reading the thread? But it wasn't a possum. It was a cat, which was not killing livestock. I fail to see how knowing what kind of animal you're telling your dog to kill can be construed as "knowing everything." It's not a minor detail, it's the crux of this whole thing. I just think that the situation could have been handled better, that's all.


Um.

First, he said that the only flashlight he owns had dead batteries. I've had that happen before---and so have a lot of people.

Second, if you are *used* to seeing possums and raccoons in your yard, and your dog is growling at an animal that, in the dark, seems about their size... it's not ridiculous to assume that it's one of those animals.

Third, possums and raccoons can be quite dangerous. Oh, they won't *kill* you---but they can give you some nasty wounds and a trip to the ER---but what's more important, there's the risk of rabies (which your dog is vaccinated for, but *you* AREN'T). And these animals aren't necessarily afraid of humans.

In our old house, we had a mother possum nest under our deck (which was about 8 inches off the ground). I spotted her one night, standing on the concrete patio right outside our sliding door. I went up to the door, banged on it, and yelled "Get away!" as loud as I could.

The possum (which had to have weighed at least 30 lbs---it was the biggest damn possum I've ever seen) just stood there, looked at me, and snarled. It scared me right through the glass. Then it stood there some more... and after about five minutes, slowly ambled back under the deck. I didn't scare her in the least... and I sure as hell wasn't about to go out there and contest possession of the patio with her---those teeth were long and sharp, and her claws were capable of latching onto me quite nicely for her to go to work with her teeth.

So, if I owned a farm work dog, and walked out in the dark to see what kind of animal it's growling at... if I can make out that it's the general size and shape of a possum or raccoon, I'm not going to go any closer to it to see it better... because the closer I get, the more chance that it'll decide to attack me.

I personally wouldn't sic the dogs that I own on it... but we don't own any livestock, either. The only reason I'd sic my dogs on it would be if it was attacking one of us, or threatening someone (especially my son or another kid---threaten a kid, and you don't get a second chance with me).

So, I don't fault Hurricane for not getting close enough to ID the animal in the dark, once he saw it was the general size and shape for a possum or raccoon. And he had good reason to think that's what it was.

Honestly, I'd be on your side a bit more if you were arguing that he shouldn't have sicced the dog on the animal because of the risk to the *dog*. The fact that it turned out to be a very brave, or stupid, housecat (which again, may have been a feral and/or rabid cat) is immaterial.

For that matter... how do you know the cat wasn't there hunting his chickens? Housecats hunt birds all the time, as many cat owners know. It's to his credit that he's upset that it *did* turn out to be a cat, because a lot of farmers wouldn't immediately assume that the cat belonged to a neighbor, and/or that the cat *wasn't* there to hunt baby chicks.

Finally, I think he's right re: property damage, etc. from a stray animal, whether it belongs to a neighbor or not. If you own a pet, you're responsible for seeing that it doesn't roam. That goes for cats as well as dogs. I've noticed that a lot of people who would *never* let their dog be an "outdoor" dog have no problem letting their cat out of the house with no idea if the cat is staying in their yard, if it's drinking someone's spilled antifreeze, if it's crossing the road in front of cars, or attacking a neighbor's cat or dog, etc. If you let your pet roam, you risk your pet being killed by any of those things, and/or someone killing it because it came onto their property.

As for the latter, just because an animal is in your yard, even if it's wearing a collar, it doesn't mean that said animal isn't sick, or won't attack you. your kids, and/or your pets. It's wise to be wary of any strange animal in your yard, and consider caution and care if you *do* decide to approach it.

[Solaris]

You're right, it's unfair to judge in retrospect. Personally, I'd like to think that I'd have found a non-fatal solution, but I understand that it was a chaotic situation.

Often, in the heat of the moment, we react far differently than we would have, had we had the time to consider our options, especially if it's a new situation.

For one thing... I would bet Hurricane will be extra diligent in the future, in keeping fresh batteries on hand, and maybe owning more than one flashlight. :wink:

Seriously, now that he has time, I would think he probably *is* looking at what other alternatives he can pursue.

[Solaris]

Hindsight is 20/20

I probably would have gone the pellet gun route myself, mainly because i wouldn't want my dog being injured or killed by a mystery creature, nor would i want to have to clean the blood off of the Pit.

But the cat died because of mistaken identity, several people on this thread seem to think he tracked it down and fed it to his dog.


I've had to yell my head off keeping our dogs from getting into a fight with a stray in our yard... and it's for just that reason: I don't want them getting hurt. I'm lucky they're good about obeying my voice commands---they left the stray and came inside before the "dominance posturing" broke down into a full fight.

But if a stray (or a wild animal) is moving to attack me or our son, I'll welcome their help in fighting it off. Otherwise, I'd rather they don't try to take on anything else, wild or tame. (And yep, we bought a BB gun because of the stray dogs we get at times... give 'em a sting on the rump with it, and most dogs will scat---and it's a lot safer to shoot a BB at them from the deck, than to approach them and try to bluff them out of the yard.)

[section 8]

I've had to yell my head off keeping our dogs from getting into a fight with a stray in our yard... and it's for just that reason: I don't want them getting hurt. I'm lucky they're good about obeying my voice commands---they left the stray and came inside before the "dominance posturing" broke down into a full fight.

But if a stray (or a wild animal) is moving to attack me or our son, I'll welcome their help in fighting it off. Otherwise, I'd rather they don't try to take on anything else, wild or tame. (And yep, we bought a BB gun because of the stray dogs we get at times... give 'em a sting on the rump with it, and most dogs will scat---and it's a lot safer to shoot a BB at them from the deck, than to approach them and try to bluff them out of the yard.)

Air-softs are also good BTW

[Lester C.]

i understand and maybe he will handle it different next time, thanks to the trauma of the cats death.

I think maybe he feels bad enough without the chastising.

That's because they never lived in a rural area. All they are reading is that Hurricane siced a pit bull to kill a house cat without understanding the context of the situation. In their minds Hurricane is no different than Michael Vick which is the furthest thing from the truth.

[BnL]

Um.

First, he said that the only flashlight he owns had dead batteries. I've had that happen before---and so have a lot of people.

Second, if you are *used* to seeing possums and raccoons in your yard, and your dog is growling at an animal that, in the dark, seems about their size... it's not ridiculous to assume that it's one of those animals.

Third, possums and raccoons can be quite dangerous. Oh, they won't *kill* you---but they can give you some nasty wounds and a trip to the ER---but what's more important, there's the risk of rabies (which your dog is vaccinated for, but *you* AREN'T). And these animals aren't necessarily afraid of humans.

In our old house, we had a mother possum nest under our deck (which was about 8 inches off the ground). I spotted her one night, standing on the concrete patio right outside our sliding door. I went up to the door, banged on it, and yelled "Get away!" as loud as I could.

The possum (which had to have weighed at least 30 lbs---it was the biggest damn possum I've ever seen) just stood there, looked at me, and snarled. It scared me right through the glass. Then it stood there some more... and after about five minutes, slowly ambled back under the deck. I didn't scare her in the least... and I sure as hell wasn't about to go out there and contest possession of the patio with her---those teeth were long and sharp, and her claws were capable of latching onto me quite nicely for her to go to work with her teeth.

So, if I owned a farm work dog, and walked out in the dark to see what kind of animal it's growling at... if I can make out that it's the general size and shape of a possum or raccoon, I'm not going to go any closer to it to see it better... because the closer I get, the more chance that it'll decide to attack me.

I personally wouldn't sic the dogs that I own on it... but we don't own any livestock, either. The only reason I'd sic my dogs on it would be if it was attacking one of us, or threatening someone (especially my son or another kid---threaten a kid, and you don't get a second chance with me).

So, I don't fault Hurricane for not getting close enough to ID the animal in the dark, once he saw it was the general size and shape for a possum or raccoon. And he had good reason to think that's what it was.

I completely understand all that. I'm not arguing that one should get close enough to correctly identify the animal, I'm just saying that if you DON'T know what kind of animal it is, and you can't find out, I don't think it's a good idea to sic your dog on it. Anyway, I feel kind of bad going on and on about this, because I don't want Hurricane to feel like he's being attacked.

Honestly, I'd be on your side a bit more if you were arguing that he shouldn't have sicced the dog on the animal because of the risk to the *dog*. The fact that it turned out to be a very brave, or stupid, housecat (which again, may have been a feral and/or rabid cat) is immaterial.

From an earlier post:
I just couldn't imagine A) risking my dog's safety by encouraging it to fight a potentially dangerous wild animal unless absolutely necessary, and B) siccing my dog on another animal without being sure I knew what it was, and exhausting other options before I even considered that.

For that matter... how do you know the cat wasn't there hunting his chickens? Housecats hunt birds all the time, as many cat owners know. It's to his credit that he's upset that it *did* turn out to be a cat, because a lot of farmers wouldn't immediately assume that the cat belonged to a neighbor, and/or that the cat *wasn't* there to hunt baby chicks.

Finally, I think he's right re: property damage, etc. from a stray animal, whether it belongs to a neighbor or not. If you own a pet, you're responsible for seeing that it doesn't roam. That goes for cats as well as dogs. I've noticed that a lot of people who would *never* let their dog be an "outdoor" dog have no problem letting their cat out of the house with no idea if the cat is staying in their yard, if it's drinking someone's spilled antifreeze, if it's crossing the road in front of cars, or attacking a neighbor's cat or dog, etc. If you let your pet roam, you risk your pet being killed by any of those things, and/or someone killing it because it came onto their property.

As for the latter, just because an animal is in your yard, even if it's wearing a collar, it doesn't mean that said animal isn't sick, or won't attack you. your kids, and/or your pets. It's wise to be wary of any strange animal in your yard, and consider caution and care if you *do* decide to approach it.

You're right, it was an assumption on my part that the cat wasn't there to kill the chickens. I just figured that if there was evidence of it, Hurricane would have said so, plus the fact that most cats wouldn't try to hunt a bird as large as a chicken. But you're right, there's every possibility that this was the case.

And you've just described why I would never allow any of my cats to roam around outdoors, under any circumstances. But the thing is, I think that it's easier to accept the risks to the cat's life in terms of natural predators and things like that, since as you said, that's the way of nature. For some reason, it's more painful when it's a case involving humans, which might have been prevented. I don't know why, maybe some kind of perceived, but unspoken "understanding" between pet owners? Maybe it's just me. *shrug*

[BnL]

That's because they never lived in a rural area. All they are reading is that Hurricane siced a pit bull to kill a house cat without understanding the context of the situation. In their minds Hurricane is no different than Michael Vick which is the furthest thing from the truth.

That's a pretty huge leap, Lester. And a few posters in this thread have indicated that they grew up in rural communities.

[veracity]

That's because they never lived in a rural area. All they are reading is that Hurricane siced a pit bull to kill a house cat without understanding the context of the situation. In their minds Hurricane is no different than Michael Vick which is the furthest thing from the truth.

Wrong answer.

It's bad for the press because the pit doesn't need any bad press since the dog hasn't been kept from frighting but few generations. They are amazing dogs, to the point the dog training I'm going to with my mom has an 8-month-old pit has in the puppy class with her dachshund mix (another working dog). I've worked with and been around them in my former job (animal hospital). I don't want to see a good dog, which a devoted and working dog can be, vilified if possible. Remember English bulldog's formerly baited bulls several hundred years ago, which the breed was altered as time went on to be a family pet and the aggression tempered out for the most part.

Letting a dog kill any stray that walks in the yard isn't safe. Feral cat or not, it's not safe. As mentioned rabies could be possible, so exposure to either dog and human is possible. The dog will more than likely become territorial and may in fact attack the other dog. Hell, I've seen black labs be aggressive and territorial, as in my next door neighbor's and our small shared porch, while previously nice not 3 months ago.

That was the cause of the breed's bad press. They're loyal and very smart dogs, but it is essentially encouraging another animal to kill another without discrimination. What happens if the purebred pit manages to get out and is hurt, comes limping home, and the scent is changed? Who's to say the mix doesn't kill that dog? Then Hurricane is out two dogs because they have to be put down (a more than likely occurrence if a gun is the only way to stop the fight).

And for the record, while Atlanta proper is no longer full of small farms, you'd be amazed at how rural it can be less than an hour outside. Especially since I grew up in the 80s in a small town about 35-40 minutes away off Highway 78, to the northeast. Even now, in far northern Fulton county (majority of Atlanta proper) and Gwinnett county, you'll find proper farms and horse farms. Rural doesn't have to mean 3 hours outside a major city. Though, for that? I lived in a small town that had 10,000 people and was the county seat, including the junior college's students. The major jobs were the chicken processing plant, farms, and a Georgia home office for Walmart. The tri-county movie theater had 2 screens and the movies changed weekly. There were farms from the small town to Macon, lots and lots of cows I saw every weekend I came home.

So please don't think just because one person lives in a major city we've never been to a rural area. My grandfather raised chickens and my great-uncle had a small farm in Gwinnett (probably about 8-9 acres) that included pigs that were about 230 lbs for eating, chickens, hunting beagles (at least 6 at any given time), and god knows what else I've forgotten in the 18 years I hadn't visited before Buck died. I didn't feel bad for the pigs because they were food, but I did end up getting my own beagle while visiting at Uncle Buck's since dogs liked me. I knew the dog was a hunter and killed other creatures, but it was taught to do it in the quickest possible way while the owner came up and shot the not-dog if it wasn't dead yet.

[Arrogantcur]

It's called "The Food Chain"

Deal with it.

You can't be serious. Dogs are trained to NOT act like wild animals and kill whenever the mood strikes them. In this case, Hurricane had a choice about whether his dog attacked or not.

And even if it were a possum or something, it's not a great idea to tell your dog to attack it. For all you know, the possum or raccoon or whatever could have rabies, it could bite your dog while fighting with it, and that wouldn't be good for your dog. The best case scenario after that is a vet bill. He should have just fired a warning shot to scare the thing off.

Encouragement to kill the coon or possum because they cost me money. Did you not read the rest of my posts?

You probably should have made sure that it WAS something that would go after your animals before you decided to kill it.

I just couldn't imagine A) risking my dog's safety by encouraging it to fight a potentially dangerous wild animal unless absolutely necessary

Yeah.

It's obvious that you can't understand being in a situation where you pour hundreds or even thousands of dollars into feeding and raising livestock only to have all of that money wasted when the livestock is killed by pest animals.

I understand it just fine, but I don't believe in taking an action like that unless you are SURE that you're dealing with a "pest animal." In this case, you weren't.

I've said all I need to and read all I want to. I can understand why you would be worried about your livestock, but it was still the wrong call. I hope you won't be as quick to sic your dog on something without knowing what it is in the future.

[section 8]

You can't be serious. Dogs are trained to NOT act like wild animals and kill whenever the mood strikes them. In this case, Hurricane had a choice about whether his dog attacked or not.

And even if it were a possum or something, it's not a great idea to tell your dog to attack it. For all you know, the possum or raccoon or whatever could have rabies, it could bite your dog while fighting with it, and that wouldn't be good for your dog. The best case scenario after that is a vet bill. He should have just fired a warning shot to scare the thing off.

With a pallet gun? :confused: Ok I guess hindsight isn't ALWAYS 20/20

Three things you can expect a dog to do, pet or no:

1) Sniff stuff

2) hump things

3) Kill smaller animals

You can detour some of this, but you will never stop them from doing it all together, it is in their blood.

Though I Admit when I made the "Food Chain" comment I had misunderstood the OP thinking the dog killed the cat on its own and that Hurricane simply didn't stop it.

[Arrogantcur]

With a pallet gun? :confused: Ok I guess hindsight isn't ALWAYS 20/20

Fire into the dirt in front of it.