Legion of Super-Heroes....Do they have a future? [Archive]

janarrah1

03-01-2009, 10:01 AM

Is there a Legion thread in the DC Forums? All I saw was the one with tirades over the Legion #50 fiasco. With only the 3 Worlds mini....and the up-coming Adventure appearances, I thought now might be the time for all good Legion fans to start discussing what should be done with the series....before it's too late. With the declining economy, I could see a time when DC only published a few core books. The Legion should be one of those. But they don't seem to have a clear idea as to what the fans really expect. Let's let them know!

Will.S

03-01-2009, 10:50 AM

I certainly think they do.

Once Johns sorts out the whole mess of Legions with Legion of 3 Worlds, I expect to see them return in Adventure comics as sort of a "trial run" (along with Aquaman) and then a mini series somewhere down the line.

janarrah1

03-01-2009, 11:03 AM

Will.S

03-01-2009, 11:09 AM

I haven't minded what Johns has been doing with the Legion so far....but just the fact that they have to earn a mini-series is a major fault due to what has been done to the team over the past 5 years. Shooter's run was going well and then got truncated due to will of the Powers-that-be. I've never heard so many long-time Legion fans threaten to boycott DC titles as I have as a result. It was the teams 50th Anniversary and they were definitely given the short-end of the stick.
That's because DC editorial can't make their minds up about anything and they veer wildly into new directions only to pull back again (although Marvel does this too, particularly with Spider-Man).

They're very inconsistent and that's really hurting the entire line but as I've said, since Didio wants the "iconic" versions back I would imagine that the Silver Age Legion that Johns wrote in Lightning Saga and Action Comics will be the ones to come back with probably a few characters from another Legion book mushed together.

SUPERECWFAN1

03-01-2009, 12:27 PM

It seems like Adventure Comics is where the Legion's new home will be. It seems to fit though. Its the 50th Anniversy of the LSH, the original team is back...in the 1st real series they starred in for years. With a character they were identified with so much like Superman/Superboy.

janarrah1

03-01-2009, 12:46 PM

I love the original versions the best...although I hope that won't mean we don't get any of the better new Legionnaires also! I like many of them...especially the ones that showed there were non-humanoid species in the UP!
As for Spiderman....I hate what they did in NEW DAY....but it saves me lots of $$ not having to buy that title now! My Spiderman lives on!

janarrah1

03-02-2009, 03:31 PM

Which brings me back to my original question.....Is there a Legion of Super-Heroes thread in the DC Universe section of this site? I couldn't find one.

janarrah1

07-01-2009, 07:44 AM

I doubt anyone has any inside news....so let's make a friendly wager. When do you think the Legion will get it's own series again? I'm hoping for a return my next summer. This will give them sufficient time to rebuild a new readership with all of the current crossovers happening. From there, it's only a matter of time until the Legion re-takes the Adventure title!

ffaristocrat

07-01-2009, 08:33 AM

janarrah1

07-01-2009, 08:54 AM

Isn't Legion going to be a backup feature to Superboy in Adventure Comics?

I know about the back-up feature....I'm already looking forward to when they'll have their own title again!

Calybos

07-01-2009, 10:51 AM

For some reason, I expected a Rip Hunter chalkboard-style response to that question..

"The Legion's future is in the past!"

.

celticguy

07-01-2009, 11:51 AM

For some reason, I expected a Rip Hunter chalkboard-style response to that question..

"The Legion's future is in the past!"

.

that makes my head hurt.

janarrah1

07-20-2009, 01:21 PM

So no one has any opinions on when the Legion will take over Adventure Comics again as the lead feature? If we make it clear through emails and letters that the reason most of us are buying the comic is because of the Legion, I think it'll happen with a year.
Now if only the sales justify the continuance of Adventure! I'm hoping that Johns magic will have some pull!

Bakura

07-20-2009, 01:25 PM

My vote would go for either a complete reboot or ignore the last two attempts and just go with the original history. The problem with continuity disasters is people keep wanting to find a way to fix them while not messing with the continuity itself. Sometimes you just have to cut away the bad parts and forget them. Retconning isn't always a bad thing.

Matthew E

07-20-2009, 01:57 PM

janarrah1: When DC's ready, is my guess. But I think the letters are a good idea.

Bakura: I disagree. First, I think reboots just alienate readers. Second, no comic book has ever been messed up so badly that a good writer couldn't save it. Third, no continuity problem has ever been so bad that it couldn't be dealt with by ignoring it. Fourth, all the Legion versions have their fans and I can't think but that the best solution is one that will appeal to all those fans (which is not to say that DC is planning or will achieve such a solution; we'll have to see).

Samy

07-20-2009, 03:25 PM

They dicked up the anniversary.

They've already given the property three trial runs.

* Lightning Saga
* Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes
* Legion of Three Worlds

and they *still* won't give them a chance at a new ongoing. Instead they're getting just more trials:

* role in Secret Origin
* backups in Adventure
* Mon-El in Superman

They just keep building groundwork and groundwork and groundwork and I suppose hopefully that'll translate into bigger sales when they eventually *do* give a #1 -- but for me for one, it's too much buildup and a failure to deliver.

Adam C

07-20-2009, 03:31 PM

that makes my head hurt.

Considering the original incarnation of the Legion is being brought back after two reboots that didn't pan out (in the end) and being tied back into the Superman mythos like they were before I'd say that Calybos' witticism is on the money.

and they *still* won't give them a chance at a new ongoing. Instead they're getting just more trials:

In some ways I can't blame DC though. For the past few years the property has been a problematic one in terms of sales and the delays in The Legion of Three Worlds probably damaged audience interest in a new LOSH ongoing. And that's leaving aside how it hard it has been to launch new titles with even name characters.

Samy

07-20-2009, 03:56 PM

all the Legion versions have their fans and I can't think but that the best solution is one that will appeal to all those fansI question whether there is any possible solution that would appeal to *all* fans.

You may want to mean "as many as possible" of those fans.

vinniewarlock

07-21-2009, 08:48 PM

I still want to know what they will do with the Reboot and Threebot LSH...

I really liked Threebot Legion and I want to see them again...

Bakura

07-21-2009, 09:01 PM

Matthew E

07-22-2009, 07:27 AM

I would turn the multiverse of the 31st century into a megaverse, one that contains all 52 (or more if I can talk DC editorial into it) universes in one and allows them to freely interact. Accordingly, all the Legions have to join forces as one big Legion to help police the place. True, there would be the potential for confusion what with multiple versions of some characters, but I'd find some kind of nontraumatic solution for that. I certainly wouldn't handle it by killing people off or smooshing them together into some kind of amalgamated character. Superboy and Supergirl would make guest appearances once or twice a year each.

Most importantly, I'd spend no more than about three comic-book pages on those details, because I would want to get on with introducing new cool science-fiction villains and other menaces for this Legion to cope with. These antagonists would be handled in a series of done-in-one stories (or, every now and then, two-issue stories) that could be thematically linked up into trade-friendly units of six. I would insist that my artists (a rotating stable of Bill Sienkiewicz, Alan Davis, George Perez and Johannes Vermeer) maintain an average of no less than seven panels a page, and every year there would be an Annual.

RachelRules

07-22-2009, 08:06 AM

The Legion has been my favourite comic since I was a kid. I've always loved the original team (up to and including the Five Year Gap and the SW-6 clones). That's not to say that there haven't been some interesting new characters. Heaven knows I've stuck with the comic through thick and thin and through multiple reboots. And I'm sure that whatever form the Legion takes in the future, I'll always be a reader. That being said, I still think the Silver Age team would be the best. Let's not, however, go back and start from the very beginning. And let's not make the comic all about Superboy or Supergirl with the rest of the characters as background filler. There's a rich heritage to mine out there. I know that too much foreknowledge of the Legion can't be assumed because they want to draw in new readers but, to paraphrase Dr. Evil, toss long-time readers a frickin' bone and take some of this history into account.

Adventure Comics is a good start and certainly a fitting nostalgic re-beginning of the book. From there, who knows? It took years for the Legion to get its own comic. Hopefully, that won't be the case this time. I'll just be glad to have them back on a regular basis. Long Live the Legion!!

Bakura

07-22-2009, 08:31 AM

Matthew E

07-22-2009, 09:08 AM

Bakura

07-22-2009, 09:19 AM

No, no; it is simple! You've got a big world with all kinds of interesting and unexpected stuff in it, and a large-yet-overworked team of superheroes to keep order in it. That's it, that's the whole premise. All the other stuff is just what you have to do to get to that point, and you never have to mention it again.

Yes you do, if you keep all the characters from the 3 versions then you drag all the continutiy of them with you.

And it has the advantage that you're not telling all the fans who have come to like the Legion in the past fifteen years that their favourite characters aren't as important as the favourite characters of the fans who've been around longer than that.

Sometimes thats what you have to do. This is where DC has typically failed, they try to make everyone happy with continuity errors and end up making it worse or at the very least still having the same problem. Besides whatever version they ended up going with, if the stories were well written, the fans of the other versions would come around eventually.

Matthew E

07-22-2009, 09:28 AM

Yes you do, if you keep all the characters from the 3 versions then you drag all the continutiy of them with you.

Yes, but you don't have to use it. You can just tell new stories. Anything from the past that's going to confuse people, you can just not refer to. It's an invaluable technique for long-running serial genre stuff with multiple creators involved.

Sometimes thats what you have to do.

Maybe, but it has not been demonstrated to my satisfaction that this is such a case.

I think it sounds pretty dubious, myself. Annoy the newer, younger fans to placate the older diehards? It's not the way I'd go.

Besides whatever version they ended up going with, if the stories were well written, the fans of the other versions would come around eventually.

I'd like to believe that this was true. I'm sure it is, for some people. Not all, though, and probably not close to it.

Bakura

07-22-2009, 09:35 AM

Yes, but you don't have to use it. You can just tell new stories. Anything from the past that's going to confuse people, you can just not refer to.
If you keep them around, the fans will want you to honor their continuity.

Maybe, but it has not been demonstrated to my satisfaction that this is such a case.
I don't care, nor do I answer to you. Obviously you won't agree no matter what I say.

Annoy the newer, younger fans to placate the older diehards? It's not the way I'd go.
Thats your opinion, you go with the majority that will produce the most sales, If the stories are interesting and the writing is good the newer fans will come around.

I'd like to believe that this was true. I'm sure it is, for some people. Not all, though, and probably not close to it.

You can't please everyone. You go with what fixes the problem and makes the majority happy.

Matthew E

07-22-2009, 09:44 AM

If you keep them around, the fans will want you to honor their continuity.

Sure. That's fine. That can be done without dragging in anything problematic. Treating the characters well is the biggest part of it, I would say.

I don't care, nor do I answer to you. Obviously you won't agree no matter what I say.

There's no need to get shirty about it.

I've been thinking about this stuff for long enough that it's harder to change my mind than it used to be, true, but I'll still listen to a good argument. But you're not going to get me to agree that throwing out a minority of babies along with the bathwater is any kind of optimum solution. And I want an optimum solution. Well, why would I want anything less?

(Of course, we're talking here about what DC should do. You may very well be right about what DC will do.)

Bakura

07-22-2009, 09:52 AM

Sure. That's fine. That can be done without dragging in anything problematic. Treating the characters well is the biggest part of it, I would say.
History is not on your side, DC has had continutity problems, not just with Legion but others like hawkman because they try to keep the continuity of other versions of characters around. Mine is a simpler approach that solves the problem outright.

I've been thinking about this stuff for long enough that it's harder to change my mind than it used to be.

My point exactly, no matter what i say your mind is made up and I have been been thinking about this problem for quite a long time as well.

And I want an optimum solution. Well, why would I want anything less?

No, you want what you consider to be an optimum solution. There are things I like about all 3 legions as well, but I think objectively. What will solve the overall problem is to pick one legion, the one people are most likely to buy a comic about and stick with it. Bring on a great writier and artist and the fans of the other versions will come around. Your trying to find a perfect solution, I'm trying to find a realistic one.

Samy

07-22-2009, 10:07 AM

Pick the original/Johns Legion and stick with it.

The others were just Ultimate reboots anyhow. Not important.

;)

Matthew E

07-22-2009, 10:21 AM

History is not on your side, DC has had continutity problems, not just with Legion but others like hawkman because they try to keep the continuity of other versions of characters around. Mine is a simpler approach that solves the problem outright.

It's simpler, maybe, but a fan of the threeboot Legion probably wouldn't condider it much of a solution.

Anyway, the Hawkman example supports my argument. When Geoff Johns fixed Hawkman, he didn't do it by throwing stuff away; he did it by finding a way to use all the stuff that came before. And now Hawkman works. Sure, maybe he doesn't have his own comic or anything, but that's not because of the fix; it's because it doesn't matter how much you fix Hawkman; there's still only so much you can do with the character, and that's not a problem that the Legion has.

no matter what i say your mind is made up

No, that's not what I said.

No, you want what you consider to be an optimum solution.

We can put it that way if you'd like. I'll gladly switch to a better solution if someone can show me one.

What will solve the overall problem is to pick one legion, the one people are most likely to buy a comic about and stick with it.

Yes, I understand your solution. Mine is similar, except it involves a much bigger Legion and one with wider appeal. (Plus: it doesn't leave characters out in the cold whom DC will inevitably bring back one day anyway, thus messing up whatever status quo there is.)

Bring on a great writier and artist and the fans of the other versions will come around.

I don't know about that. It would be good if this were the case. But I don't know if it's what would happen, and I kind of suspect that it isn't.

Your trying to find a perfect solution.

Shouldn't I?

Samy

07-22-2009, 10:27 AM

the Hawkman example supports my argument. When Geoff Johns fixed Hawkman, he didn't do it by throwing stuff away; he did it by finding a way to use all the stuff that came before.Integrating all of them into one.

Note that he did not have three separate Hawkmen running around.

So the HAWKMAN relaunch seems to support the point that it's much easier for a reader to grasp a situation where there aren't three identical (or near-identical) looking people with the same codename standing next to each other.

Bakura

07-22-2009, 10:34 AM

It's simpler, maybe, but a fan of the threeboot Legion probably wouldn't condider it much of a solution.

You can't please everyone, and if the new comic was done well enough they would come aorund eventually/

We can put it that way if you'd like. I'll gladly switch to a better solution if someone can show me one.
No you want one that fits YOUR view of an optimum situation. I'm looking at this from a practical angle.

Yes, I understand your solution. Mine is similar, except it involves a much bigger Legion and one with wider appeal.

No, yours involves being saddled with the continutiy of 3 legions. Mine is the most practical as you only have to deal with one.

Shouldn't I?

No, you should be thinking about what woudl be the most practical solution and accept that it means some people won't come away happy. You cannot please everyone. You choose the version with the biggest fanbase and get great writers and artists for it and the fans of the other version will come around eventually.

Matthew E

07-22-2009, 10:35 AM

Integrating all of them into one.

Note that he did not have three separate Hawkmen running around.

So the HAWKMAN relaunch seems to support the point that it's much easier for a reader to grasp a situation where there aren't three identical (or near-identical) looking people with the same codename standing next to each other.

This is true.

I know that with piling three Legions on each other like this, you get two problems:
- duplicate characters
- duplicate characters in large numbers

So you can do something cute by which you have one Lightning Lad retire and one go back to being kinda like Element Lad and the third one be himself... but then you have to go through the same thing for about twenty other characters. It's hard! But I'd rather do that than kill two-thirds of them.

You can't please everyone, and if the new comic was done well enough they would come aorund eventually/

You keep saying that, and I keep doubting it. It just doesn't match the behaviour of Legion fans whom I've observed in the wild.

Most of the rest of your post I've already addressed upthread...

No, you should be thinking about what woudl be the most practical solution and accept that it means some people won't come away happy.

When DC Comics hires me to edit their new Legion comic, I'll let them tell me that that's what I should do. In the meantime, I'm a free agent and will set my own course... subject to any persuasive arguments to the contrary that I haven't thought of, or heard, yet.

I'm willing to discuss this for as long as you like, but we're starting to get repetitive, and I don't like to be repetitive. Do you have any points you haven't made yet?

Bakura

07-22-2009, 10:37 AM

This is true.

I know that with piling three Legions on each other like this, you get two problems:
- duplicate characters
- duplicate characters in large numbers

So you can do something cute by which you have one Lightning Lad retire and one go back to being kinda like Element Lad and the third one be himself... but then you have to go through the same thing for about twenty other characters. It's hard! But I'd rather do that than kill two-thirds of them.

See this is my point, your talking about what you'd like to see. I'm talking about what would fix the problem the most. Your way has brought us to this point, my way would fix it.

Matthew E

07-22-2009, 10:48 AM

See this is my point, your talking about what you'd like to see. I'm talking about what would fix the problem the most. Your way has brought us to this point, my way would fix it.

Well, obviously I'm not going to come up with a solution that I wouldn't like to see.

One feature of our little discussion that hadn't occurred to me until just now is that we may have different ideas about just what the problem with the Legion is.

I think that the problem is that the existence of several separate Legions keeps a majority of fans alienated and prevents any given Legion comic from being as successful as it could be. The relevance of my solution to this problem is obvious. I don't think that complicated continuity is much of a problem at all.

I think you think that the problem is that Legion continuity is too complicated and would appeal more to everyone if it was simpler. The relevance of your solution to this problem is obvious. You don't seem to think that the competing Legion versions are much of a problem at all.

Is that a fair representation of your opinion?

Bakura

07-22-2009, 01:16 PM

Well, obviously I'm not going to come up with a solution that I wouldn't like to see.

There in lay your problem, I'm trying to think of a practical way to restore the series and make it viable.

I think that the problem is that the existence of several separate Legions keeps a majority of fans alienated and prevents any given Legion comic from being as successful as it could be.

Thats why you pick the one most likely to keep the majority of fans reading and ditch the rest. You hire a good writer and a good artist and avoid any continuity issues.

Matthew E

07-22-2009, 09:38 PM

Thats why you pick the one most likely to keep the majority of fans reading and ditch the rest.

Well, what I meant was, no one version of the Legion will please more than a minority of the fans.

But never mind that. Did I accurately summarize your position in my previous post, or did I get you wrong?

Because if that is the difference between us, then I think it's something about which reasonable people can disagree.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 08:57 AM

Well, what I meant was, no one version of the Legion will please more than a minority of the fans.
Thats your opinion, with no facts to back it up.

And if the comic had a good art and writing team, then the fans of the other 2 would come around. Your looking for some fantasy ideal solution that will please everyone. I'm looking at a practical solution that won't saddle them down with 2 other timelines of continuity. If they didn't pick my favorite version I would be okay with it and so would other people.

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 09:35 AM

Thats your opinion, with no facts to back it up.

I wouldn't say no facts; just unsatisfactory facts. How do we know what versions of the Legion people like, and how that affects their comic book purchases? Mostly we only know if they sound off on blogs and message boards. But DC believes (I've read this opinion expressed in several interviews with DC personnel) that the people who sound off on blogs and message boards are completely unrepresentative of the comic-book-buying populace as a whole.

So, on the one hand, I've got some anecdotal evidence that suggests that many vocal internet Legion fans are bitterly splintered over which Legion is which. On the other hand I have nothing.

Still, the vocal internet Legion fans are people too, and if we can come up with a viable solution that works for them, then why wouldn't we?

And if the comic had a good art and writing team, then the fans of the other 2 would come around. Your looking for some fantasy ideal solution that will please everyone. I'm looking at a practical solution that won't saddle them down with 2 other timelines of continuity. If they didn't pick my favorite version I would be okay with it and so would other people.

We're repeating ourselves again. I tried to find a way out of this loop for us but you didn't seem to want to take it.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 10:10 AM

I wouldn't say no facts; just unsatisfactory facts.
Then present some, because all you've given so far is your desire for a fantasy solution where everyones immediately happy.

My solution is a practical one, pick the legion they think the fans will respond to the best and scrap the other two, it allows for a fresh start with a far less complicated continuity to deal with. As I said if they have a good staff on the comic, people will come around to it eventually.

The idea of pleasing everyone is what has kept this mess going for as long as it has.

kyleryner

07-23-2009, 10:18 AM

I think that the problem is that the existence of several separate Legions keeps a majority of fans alienated and prevents any given Legion comic from being as successful as it could be.

I respectfully disagree... what Johns did with Legion of 3 Worlds is so simple, they should have thought of that ages ago. Have all versions of the Legion actually co-exist, but from different universes.. as opposed to saying, "hey that version never really existed after a reboot.. no one remembers them except the fans"

What we have now is the potential of having 2 or 3 ongoing legion titles (hey they used to have that!) each featuring a team. Or, they could alternate stories, or have a backup feature. Or they could do an Annual team-up much like the JLA-JSA teamups in the silverage which fans look forward to.

I think with the conclusion of Lo3W, the future (pun intended) is open to wild possibilities... I predict exciting times for the Legion...

Long Live the Legion!! :cool:

Bakura

07-23-2009, 10:26 AM

I respectfully disagree... what Johns did with Legion of 3 Worlds is so simple, they should have thought of that ages ago. Have all versions of the Legion actually co-exist, but from different universes.

Have you forgotten that it was a mess resulting from that kind of set up that led to COIE being done?

What we have now is the potential of having 2 or 3 ongoing legion titles.

They can't even keep one title going and you want 2 or 3? This is the problem you guys are thinking of your own personal ideal situation, I am thinking of a practical one. There are things I like about the different legions too, but I would prefer one legion that will sell comics and prevent complications.

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 10:30 AM

Bakura: I've already made all the points I have to make, so unless you have any that I haven't heard yet, I think we have to leave this discussion where it is.

kyleryner: I agree, with the exception of some small details like:
- we didn't really need FC:L3W to get us to this point; the reboot Legion was shown on Earth-247 as long ago as Infinite Crisis and the retroboot and threeboot Legions have been simultaneously interacting with present-day Earth-0 for a couple of years now, and
- it could be an exciting time for the Legion, except that...

... DC doesn't publish any Legion comics anymore!

There's always one small flaw that gets in the way.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 10:34 AM

Bakura: I've already made all the points I have to make, so unless you have any that I haven't heard yet, I think we have to leave this discussion where it is.

All you've said is you want an ideal solution that pleases everyone, I want a practical one that provides with one legion team with one continuity thats easy to manage. You think the fanboys of the two that are scraped will be a problem, I don't. I think if you put a good creative team behind it, they will come around.

And if you are done with this, then why did you bother replying?

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 10:38 AM

And if you are done with this, then why did you bother replying?

Because of courtesy.

Samy

07-23-2009, 10:39 AM

Have you forgotten that it was a mess resulting from that kind of set up that led to COIE being done?
COIE was also a mistake, and hopefully DC has learned from their mistakes.

After 20+ years of watching their entire universe be totally dicked up by the ripple effects from COIE, I should like to think that they know better than to try this time.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 10:47 AM

Because of courtesy.

Unessecary.

Samy, the problem with COIE is just that, they kept trying to hold onto past contiunity. Instead of simply letting it be what it was supposed to be, a restart button.

My way is better and more practical, you wipe out the other two Legions and never reffer to them ever again or the incident that wiped them out. Just leave all those complications behind. Pick the Legion they think the most fans will like and hire the best writer and artist they can and really make a go of it.

Right now we have the 3 legion senario and no ongoing title. I would prefer an ongoing title using my solution to that.

Samy

07-23-2009, 10:50 AM

Bakura

07-23-2009, 10:53 AM

The problem with COIE was trying to do away with alternate realities when readers have no problem with the concept.

The fix was so damaging that they're still doing damage control to it two decades later.

No they did have a problem with it, the entire reason COIE was done was because of massive continuity problems and confusion amoungst readers.

Thats why my solution works, you wipe out the other two Legions and never reffer to them ever again or the incident that wiped them out. Just leave all those complications behind. Pick the Legion they think the most fans will like and hire the best writer and artist they can and really make a go of it.

Samy

07-23-2009, 11:01 AM

the entire reason COIE was done was because of massive continuity problems and confusion amoungst readers.
Citation needed.

Thats why my solution works, you wipe out the other two Legions and never reffer to them ever again or the incident that wiped them out.
Don't you think they had dreams of that in 1986 too?

Turns out reality is more complicated than your ideal vision.

I'm sure a lot of writers would have preferred to streamline things in 1986 and never refer back again but that's just not feasible in the real world.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 11:05 AM

Citation needed.

1. A forward in the reprint they did of COIE #1 a few years back.
2. The forward in the COIE trade that came out during IC.

I'm sure a lot of writers would have preferred to streamline things in 1986 and never refer back again but that's just not feasible in the real world.

And why not exactly? Just don't refer to it. I don't get why you think there would be a need to.

Samy

07-23-2009, 11:11 AM

And why not exactly? Just don't refer to it. I don't get why you think there would be a need to.
For example whenever they're going to resurrect Rond Vidar they're going to need to refer to the events of L3W.

Whenever they're going to delve inside Sun Boy's psyche they're going to need to refer to the events of L3W.

Whenever they're going to introduce a new Karate Kid that builds on Myg's death they're going to need to refer to the events of L3W.

And for god's sakes, whenever they're going to refer to BRANDE (don't think THAT'S going to be often!) they're going to need to refer to the events of L3W.

Everything's connected. You can't just excise a part of the past and pretend it didn't exist. They tried that with Superboy in 1986.

We know how well that went.

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 11:14 AM

It's funny; I was recommending the don't-refer-to-it approach back on page 2 of this thread and Bakura was all over me like white on rice.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 11:17 AM

Everything's connected. You can't just excise a part of the past and pretend it didn't exist. They tried that with Superboy in 1986.

We know how well that went.

Yes you can, It may mean you need to upset or annoy some of the die hard fans. But if you have a great writer on the series then the fans will come around. Placating and pandering to the fanboys is what has caused the mess they have now.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 11:19 AM

It's funny; I was recommending the don't-refer-to-it approach back on page 2 of this thread and Bakura was all over me like white on rice.

So your not tired with this disscusson as you previously stated?

And your way involves keeping all 3 legions around and the continuity mess that comes with it.

As I said, My way is better and more practical, you wipe out the other two Legions and never reffer to them ever again or the incident that wiped them out. Just leave all those complications behind. Pick the Legion they think the most fans will like and hire the best writer and artist they can and really make a go of it.

Right now we have the 3 legion senario and no ongoing title. I would prefer an ongoing title using my solution to that.

kyleryner

07-23-2009, 11:26 AM

Have you forgotten that it was a mess resulting from that kind of set up that led to COIE being done?

They can't even keep one title going and you want 2 or 3? This is the problem you guys are thinking of your own personal ideal situation, I am thinking of a practical one. There are things I like about the different legions too, but I would prefer one legion that will sell comics and prevent complications.

DC practically reversed COIE by reopening the multiverse with 52 worlds. At least if you're going to the alternate worlds in the Legion, you're confined to the 31st century...

and for the record, I said *potentially* and referred to the fact that at several points in its history, Legion published 2 titles (Baxter Legion and Tales of Legion, then later LoSH and Legionnaires) I was thinking if the Legion could regain its popularity, at some point in the future it just might be possible that the demand might be there to support 2 ongoing titles (ok, maybe not 3...)

Bakura: I've already made all the points I have to make, so unless you have any that I haven't heard yet, I think we have to leave this discussion where it is.

kyleryner: I agree, with the exception of some small details like:
- we didn't really need FC:L3W to get us to this point; the reboot Legion was shown on Earth-247 as long ago as Infinite Crisis and the retroboot and threeboot Legions have been simultaneously interacting with present-day Earth-0 for a couple of years now, and
- it could be an exciting time for the Legion, except that...

... DC doesn't publish any Legion comics anymore!

There's always one small flaw that gets in the way.

Give it time my friend... IIRC there was also a time when the Legion lost its title and had backup stories in Action Comics, Adventure comics and Superboy until fans started liking what they read and clamored for their own title.

Same thing with X-men.. they had low sales and got cancelled (or only had reprints, I forget) until Claremont revitalized the franchise and put X-men where it is today...

Here's hoping Geoff Johns can do the same with the Legion (crosses fingers...)

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 11:27 AM

Bakura: I'm not tired of the discussion at all. I just don't want to keep repeating myself. If a new point comes up, I'm happy to kick it around if I have something worthwhile to say about it.

But you keep making the same points over and over.

Let me ask you something:

Do you understand that we understand your position?

We do, you know. We get it. You don't have to post it again. Instead you can post something that leads us to some part of this topic that we haven't covered yet. It's the difference between having a conversation and playing with a doll that has a pullstring coming out of its back.

Sandy Hausler

07-23-2009, 11:31 AM

The problem with COIE was trying to do away with alternate realities when readers have no problem with the concept.

The fix was so damaging that they're still doing damage control to it two decades later.

Well, at the time, they claimed that alternate realities confused "some" readers.

At that time, there was one alternate reality book (Justice Society). If it was really THAT big a problem, they could have cancelled the book and saved the JSA for the annual team ups with the JLA. It never seemed that confusing, at least not for people who read comics -- there are two earths, one with the JLA and its heroes -- and another very similar world with the JSA. Sure there many other earths as well, but they were not seen, at least not that often.

Sandy Hausler

Bakura

07-23-2009, 11:33 AM

Give it time my friend... IIRC there was also a time when the Legion lost its title and had backup stories in Action Comics, Adventure comics and Superboy until fans started liking what they read and clamored for their own title.

Yes and I may be the only one on here sick of constant cancelations and new versions popping up. I'm coming up with a way to break that cycle, not continue it.

Same thing with X-men.. they had low sales until Claremont revitalized the franchise and put X-men where it is today.
How do you see this? Look what he did to Exiles....

Matthew E, I don't think you do understand, I think your lost in a fantasy. You want an ideal solution that pleases all the fan boys. Thats what they've been trying and it's failed. Your way has already shown it can't work.

My way may tick off the fanboys, but maybe thats nessecary. Sometimes ignoring the fans is whats called for.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 11:35 AM

Well, at the time, they claimed that alternate realities confused "some" readers.

At that time, there was one alternate reality book (Justice Society). If it was really THAT big a problem, they could have cancelled the book and saved the JSA for the annual team ups with the JLA. It never seemed that confusing, at least not for people who read comics -- there are two earths, one with the JLA and its heroes -- and another very similar world with the JSA. Sure there many other earths as well, but they were not seen, at least not that often.

Sandy Hausler

There was plenty of alternate universes before COIE, to tell you the truth I was not in favor of the multiverse being restored, why saddle yourself with so many continuties to keep track of?

Sandy Hausler

07-23-2009, 11:41 AM

And for god's sakes, whenever they're going to refer to BRANDE (don't think THAT'S going to be often!) they're going to need to refer to the events of L3W.

BTW, what happened to the Val Armorr?

Sandy Hausler

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 11:45 AM

BTW, what happened to the Val Armorr?

Sandy Hausler

What do you mean? Of the three Karate Kids, one died in Countdown, and the other two survived FC:L3W and are with their respective Legions.

Sandy Hausler

07-23-2009, 11:45 AM

There was plenty of alternate universes before COIE, to tell you the truth I was not in favor of the multiverse being restored, why saddle yourself with so many continuties to keep track of?

The books (with one exception) were all Earth 1 books. There was no particular problem in maintaining continuity. Not any more than now.

Sandy Hausler

KYLeo71

07-23-2009, 11:49 AM

I never understood what was so damned hard to understand about the multiverse. I started reading comics when I was 10. I understood the multiverse then and I understand it now. The only people who found the pre-Crisis DCU confusing were the adults attempting to write it. Everyone else had a pretty good grasp of it and didn't have a problem with it.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 11:51 AM

The books (with one exception) were all Earth 1 books. There was no particular problem in maintaining continuity. Not any more than now.

Sandy Hausler

So your trying to claim there was only 2 alternate worlds prior to COIE? You need to recheck your history. And that may be your opinion, but that wasn't the case, as they said in the forward to COIE thats why COIE was done.

kyleryner

07-23-2009, 12:03 PM

Yes and I may be the only one on here sick of constant cancelations and new versions popping up. I'm coming up with a way to break that cycle, not continue it.

How do you see this? Look what he did to Exiles....

I meant what Claremont did to X-men during the 70s, and turned the X-men into Marvel's hottest property in the 80s-90s , popularity that spawned bazillion of merchandise, several cartoons and 3 movies... Im not saying Legion would ever achieve THAT but one can dream, right? :wink:

BTW, what happened to the Val Armorr?

Sandy Hausler

What do you mean? Of the three Karate Kids, one died in Countdown, and the other two survived FC:L3W and are with their respective Legions.

So what earth/version did KK die in the hands of Nemesis Kid? Oh yeah... sometimes I forget this legion isnt really "our" pre-crisis legion , but a SLIGHT Variant of it that Johns decided to use... (although it doesnt make sense why he would go to thje trouble resurrecting KK only to kill him off again in countdown...

And it just occured to me that his better half, princess projectra probably has the most varied version among the 3 legions. One is a SNAKE, One is a spoiled rich brat who betrayed the Legion, and one is still going under the name of Sensor Girl and is MIA. Thats too bad... Jeckie should have been around, I would have loved to see her reaction about her counterparts... "You're a SNAKE????" and "She did WHAT??!!" :biggrin:

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 12:12 PM

So what earth/version did KK die in the hands of Nemesis Kid? Oh yeah... sometimes I forget this legion isnt really "our" pre-crisis legion , but a SLIGHT Variant of it that Johns decided to use... (although it doesnt make sense why he would go to thje trouble resurrecting KK only to kill him off again in countdown...

My best understanding is that it happened like this:
- Karate Kid dies saving Orando from Nemesis Kid
- Jeckie becomes Sensor Girl
- Myg joins the Legion as Karate Kid II
- Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl do some kind of time-travel trick to go back and save Karate Kid I from his death in such a way that nobody notices anything
- during the setup for the Lightning Saga, Karate Kid is sent back to the past, where he remains and eventually dies

For some reason, of all the differences between the retroboot and the original Legion, this is the one that everyone seizes on... and yet it's one of the few differences for which there's actually an explanation.

Sandy Hausler

07-23-2009, 12:13 PM

So your trying to claim there was only 2 alternate worlds prior to COIE? You need to recheck your history. And that may be your opinion, but that wasn't the case, as they said in the forward to COIE thats why COIE was done.

I think you'd better learn to read. I said there were other earths, but that the ongoing books dealt with one earth (with the exception of JSA). There was no real need to be concerned with continuity of these other worlds, except to a very limited extent. I mean Earth X with the Freedom Fighters existed, but since it was never seen subsequent to the JLA-JSA teamup, its existence was, for all extents and purposes, irrelevant (or, at least, not very relevant). The same was true of the other Earths. Only Earths 1 and 2 were of any major concern, and Earth 1 a LOT more than Earth 2.

And, as I've also indicated, I've never believed DC's rationale for the Crisis. That rationale was the one they gave in 1985; it didn't first appear in a recent reprint. It never made sense to me.

Sandy Hausler

Bakura

07-23-2009, 12:18 PM

I meant what Claremont did to X-men during the 70s, and turned the X-men into Marvel's hottest property in the 80s-90s.
He wasn't the only writer during that time. I think your giving him credit he doesn't completely deserve.

I said there were other earths.
Exactly, each with their own history to keep track of, again an unessecary burden.

And, as I've also indicated, I've never believed DC's rationale for the Crisis. It never made sense to me.
Well thats your opinion, not fact.

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 01:08 PM

Getting back to the original question of this thread ("Does the Legion have a future?")...

Well, they certainly should have a future. It's hard to believe that they don't.

On the one hand, the Legion that DC seems to have picked out as their version of choice has appeared so far in three arcs that all sold in handsome numbers (The Lightning Saga, Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes, Legion of Three Worlds), and who seem to have captured people's imaginations due to their resemblance to the original Legion. Geoff Johns and others have done a lot of setup to get this Legion placed in front of a lot of eyeballs, including many readers who have never been Legion fans in the past. And there's been a lot of work done to establish or emphasize ties between Legion continuity and the rest of DC continuity, which on the one hand is the opposite of how DC used to handle the Legion, but on the other hand may get some readers thinking that they should be reading about the Legion if they want to keep up with everything that's going on in the DCU.

So DC has put a lot of juice behind the Legion recently. And the result of it is?

Eight pages in the back of a comic book about Superboy II. And Dan DiDio says that that may be all that the Legion can ever handle.

Doesn't really seem like it was worth the effort, does it?

On the one hand, it seems like the Legion's potential has never been greater. On the other, DC is saying that it's never been smaller.

The obvious thing to conclude is that a) Dan DiDio is lying truth out of New York and b) DC has a new Legion ongoing series that they're not quite ready to announce yet. But the only way we're going to know the truth of it is to wait and see.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 01:13 PM

Getting back to the original question of this thread ("Does the Legion have a future?")...

Yes, if they go with one Legion and drop the other two along with the continuity baggage.

The way you suggested handling it is why DC has no faith in it anymore, how many failed attempts does this make now? All because they try to have it both ways, restart the series and remain true to the past.

My way avoids all of this, just one legion with a great creative team would bring the series back and make it viable again.

kyleryner

07-23-2009, 06:32 PM

My best understanding is that it happened like this:
- Karate Kid dies saving Orando from Nemesis Kid
- Jeckie becomes Sensor Girl
- Myg joins the Legion as Karate Kid II
- Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl do some kind of time-travel trick to go back and save Karate Kid I from his death in such a way that nobody notices anything
- during the setup for the Lightning Saga, Karate Kid is sent back to the past, where he remains and eventually dies

For some reason, of all the differences between the retroboot and the original Legion, this is the one that everyone seizes on... and yet it's one of the few differences for which there's actually an explanation.

- I never heard the official explanation was that they time-travelled to save KK in the past (ala Booster Gold). But that's a good explanation as any.

And I think that the reason why everyone seize on KK being alive when he shouldnt be is that, as i mentioned, what was the point if theyre going to kill him off again? Its like they decided in advance, we're going to kill 2 legionnaires in countdown.. who's it gonna be? And Johns probably said.. wait I dont want to kill anyone just yet (i reserve that honor for S-prime) so lets BRING BACK a dead legionnaire and kill him off again. Oh, and you can kill one of duo damsel's bodies.. i have something special planned for her so it wouldnt matter anyway.( btw, thats another difference.. Duo Damsel's other self was killed bu the TimeTrapper when a few legionnaires confronted him to avenge the death of superboy. IIRC, It was only during I think the end of Zero Hour that it was revealed her other self was still alive after all?) AND as long as Im nitpicking :biggrin: its uncharacteristic that "Uno" was in love with KK when she is still married to Bouncing Boy and KK is married to Projectra. Its bec the writers of countdown probably arent Legion fans...)

Back to KK's resurrection and death... such a waste of character. He didnt do anything in Countdown but be the carrier of a deadly disease that wiped out millions. Yeah some legacy. His Best appearance was when he kicked Batman's ass and Bats had to cheat to defeat him . But we didnt even see any visuals of KK doing that bec he was in disguise and not himself at that time.

Imagine the potential stories of him appearing in other titles particulary the Bats title... having a rematch with Batman, fighting the DCUs top martial artists like Connor Hawke, Black Canary, Shiva, Richard Dragon (his last app was in 52, was it?) and even Sensei...

There's been numerous threads by fans on who is in fact DCUs top martial artist and for me, KK deserves that title...his very NAME implies it. I'd have paid to see that happen...

/end rant :tongue:

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 06:48 PM

One idea I had for why they used Karate Kid for that role is that he's the Legionnaire with the tradition of being on a mission in the past, what with his series in the '70s. That's just a guess, though.

Luornu's bodies, in original/5YL continuity:
1. Killed by Computo in the Shooter era.
2. Killed by the Time Trapper in LSHv3 #50. After the Mordruverse/Glorithverse continuity shuffle, this was changed to "deaged to nothingness by Glorith in the equivalent of LSHv3 #50". In... I think it was LSHv4 #51; well before Zero Hour, anyway... it turned out that Glorith reaged her to use her as a like a warrior drone, and she eventually reunited with Luornu #3.
3. Survived.

So it seems like Una was Luornu #2. In retroboot continuity, the showdown with the Time Trapper either never happened or happened differently, I guess. Or maybe it happened and the three founders saved her via time travel the same way they did with Karate Kid. For a while I had a theory that Una was Luornu #1, saved from Computo the same way, but I guess not.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 06:52 PM

Samy

07-23-2009, 07:01 PM

Why? Don't you find it fun to ponder the possibilities?

Bakura

07-23-2009, 07:05 PM

Why? Don't you find it fun to ponder the possibilities?

No, I want a legions title thats viable and will last. Even if it's not the legion I would pick. I deal in practicality, not fantasy and wishful thinking.

Samy

07-23-2009, 07:07 PM

Same here.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 07:13 PM

Same here.

Then you should support my idea. Pick one Legion, axe the other two and never speak of them or the incident that offed them ever again, then hire the best writer and aritst you can find.

Samy

07-23-2009, 07:44 PM

No, because I deal in practicality, not fantasies, and "never speak of them ever again" is not practical.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 07:51 PM

No, because I deal in practicality, not fantasies, and "never speak of them ever again" is not practical.

Yes it is, it may not make the fanboys happy, but it is practical. Your way has been tried and failed.

Samy

07-23-2009, 07:54 PM

So has yours.

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 07:56 PM

Then you should support my idea. Pick one Legion, axe the other two and never speak of them or the incident that offed them ever again, then hire the best writer and aritst you can find.

Oh, is that your idea? It's interesting. How come you never mentioned it before?

Bakura

07-23-2009, 07:57 PM

So has yours.

When? Keep in mind my way means you pick one legion and get rid of the rest and never bring them or anything connected to them up again. To my knowledge that has never been tried.

Samy

07-23-2009, 08:00 PM

It has been tried -- and failed. Ben Reilly for instance. They *tried* never to refer to him ever again.

And look who's in the most recent solicitations.

The original Legion was thought that it would Never Be Referred To Again for 15 years. Then came Lightning Saga.

It. Never. Works.

Not in the real world.

Somebody always comes along 5 years, 10 years, 20 years later and brings up, "hey, what about that guy".

Always.

"Never mention again" has been tried a zillion times, and it always fails because some writer down the line always wants to go back. AL. WAYS.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 08:05 PM

The original Legion was thought that it would Never Be Referred To Again for 15 years. Then came Lightning Saga.

Exactly, my way wasn't tried because they have tried to make all 3 work. My way would mean DC telling any writier that came onto the book not to refer to any other version of the legion. My way would work as long as DC keeps that rule in effect.

Samy

07-23-2009, 08:07 PM

Bakura

07-23-2009, 08:12 PM

And it won't be. Editors change. Rules change. That's the whole name of the game. You can't imagine how many times decisions have been reversed over the history of the industry.

You're talking about some idealized fantasy world where decisions stick. I'm talking about the real world.

Your way dooms the series to constant failure. Its proven fact. The instability in comics history is what causes these continuity messes. What I want is one viable lasting Legion title. My way is more likely to insure that since your way has already proven it cannot.

Samy

07-23-2009, 08:16 PM

Your way dooms the series to constant failure. Its proven fact.
Hardly. You seem to be under the impression that using the Legion's rich continuity would drive readers away when the reverse is true. The most successful Legion was the one with the richest continuity -- 1958-1994.

The second most successful Legion was the one with the second richest continuity -- 1994-2004.

The third most successful Legion was the one with the poorest continuity -- 2004-2008.

The richer the continuity, the more successful the Legion series. The numbers don't lie. It's proven fact.

What I want is one viable lasting Legion title.

As do we all. We just differ in opinion regarding what would create that.

My way is more likely to insure that since your way has already proven it cannot.

And your way is unrealistic dreaming that will never happen.

I for one prefer looking for solutions in the practical real world, solutions that can actually be implemented.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 08:21 PM

Hardly. You seem to be under the impression that using the Legion's rich continuity would drive readers away

It's useing two or three continuities thats the problem and history has shown that it's not viable.

I for one prefer looking for solutions in the practical real world, solutions that can actually be implemented.

Mine can as long as the editors and writers are forced to stick to it.

Samy

07-23-2009, 08:23 PM

It's useing two or three continuities thats the problem and history has shown that it's not viable.History has shown no problem with it.

In fact, stories like COIE are perennial sellers despite -- or could it be BECAUSE -- of dealing with the multiple Earths.

The longest running TPB line from the Silver/Bronze Age is "Crisis on Multiple Earths".

Yeah, people sure don't enjoy reading about that multiple earths concept. Gimme a break.

Mine can as long as the editors and writers are forced to stick to it.

How do you propose that to be done across multiple editorial regimes?

Bakura

07-23-2009, 08:24 PM

History has shown no problem with it.
More then one failed title? Seems like a problem to me.

How do you propose that to be done across multiple editorial regimes?

DC employs editors therefore it can place restrictions on them.

Samy

07-23-2009, 08:28 PM

More then one failed title? Seems like a problem to me.
Sure, but not in the complexity of continuity. Each book failed because it sucked at the time. None of the Legion runs ended because they were referring other Legion runs. If you don't believe me, check out the last issues of 1994. Check out the last issues of 2004. Check out the last issues of 2008. NONE of them referred the other Legions. NONE.

They were cancelled because they SUCKED. Not because they referred other Legions.

You're looking at a sinking ship, and suggesting that it can be fixed by removing the smokestack, instead of looking where the failure *actually* was and plugging the hole under the waterline.

DC employs editors therefore it can place restrictions on them.
What prevents DC from changing its mind?

Bakura

07-23-2009, 08:33 PM

Sure, but not in the complexity of continuity. Each book failed because it sucked at the time. None of the Legion runs ended because they were referring other Legion runs.

Thats an opinion. And instead of restarting with the same legion they keep making more and causing a bigger mess.

What prevents DC from changing its mind?
Logic hopefully,

Samy

07-23-2009, 08:37 PM

Thats an opinion.So are several of your statements.

Logic hopefullyIf that's the best you can offer, I don't hold a lot of hope for them sticking to their guns. Logic has traditionally escaped a lot of comics publishers.

---

What's more, "more than one failed title" is far from a problem when we're talking about a non-Trinity property. Aside from Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, you'll be hard pressed to find a DC property that *hasn't* been relaunched three times. For a B-list brand, Legion has actually done astonishingly well. It has been in practically continuous publication from 1958 to 2008. There haven't been any major years-long gaps like there have been for, say, Hawkman, or Green Arrow, or Aquaman. The Legion is an incredibly resilient property and when we take out the Trinity, one of the best survived ones at DC.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 08:39 PM

So are several of your statements.
Such as?

What you need with the Legion is one version and the best writer and artist you can find. Are you actually saying my way won't work? That it won't sell well?

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 08:39 PM

check out the last issues of 1994. Check out the last issues of 2004. Check out the last issues of 2008. NONE of them referred the other Legions. NONE.

They were cancelled because they SUCKED.

I'll give you 1994 and 2008, but the last few issues of 2004 were actually pretty awesome. I can't think of a good reason why the Legion was rebooted at that point, other than Mark Waid wanting to start fresh.

Samy

07-23-2009, 08:41 PM

last few issues of 2004 were actually pretty awesomeGail's fill-in arc was pretty okay, but the fate of the book had been decided by then. DnA had run out of steam when they did Great Darkness Rehash and Batista's art was super-lame. Sorry, but when the book's cancellation was decided (as in, before Gail), I have to stick by my opinions -- the book sucked.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 08:43 PM

Gail's fill-in arc was pretty okay, but the fate of the book had been decided by then. DnA had run out of steam when they did Great Darkness Rehash and Batista's art was super-lame. Sorry, but when the book's cancellation was decided (as in, before Gail), I have to stick by my opinions -- the book sucked.

I just wish Busiek didn't suck right now, when he did "Avengers Forever" he actually took different continuities and made them work as one single history.

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 08:46 PM

Gail's fill-in arc was pretty okay, but the fate of the book had been decided by then. DnA had run out of steam when they did Great Darkness Rehash and Batista's art was super-lame. Sorry, but when the book's cancellation was decided (as in, before Gail), I have to stick by my opinions -- the book sucked.

I didn't like the Darkseid story either, and some of the other stories around then weren't that great, like Dream Crime, but I think they went out on a high note with those last couple of issues with the Credo. In any case, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the book, nothing that required an entire reboot to fix.

Samy

07-23-2009, 08:49 PM

Such as?
"More then one failed title? Seems like a problem to me."

That's an opinion. IMO, a book that's failed three times across *fifty years* -- that's hardly a problem. Over such a long span of time it's actually better than expected.

I can pull out a dozen other quotes if you really want to, but do we really want to spend the next several hours picking apart everything you've said quote by quote or do we want to focus on the central issue.

What you need with the Legion is one version and the best writer and artist you can find.

THAT part I agree on. Strongly. The book won't succeed if they don't put A-list talent on it. Look at REBELS sales to see what happens when you put B-list talent on a book.

The part I disagree on is the part you now left out -- that it must be mandated that the other Legions are never mentioned again. I do not believe that to have significant effect on sales either way. You're targeting a nonexistent problem. The multiple Legions are not a problem -- look at the sales of L3W! Having said that, I certainly don't feel they need to be included in every single issue. An appearance every two or three years or so would be fine. It wouldn't upset those who get bothered by complex continuity, but it would still be often enough to satisfy those who want to see the other two teams.

Trying to force-wipe the other two is pointless. They have never been the problem. They have never been present during the book's failures. Only B-list talent has been present during the book's failures. What needs be focused on during a relaunch is A-list talent. Not some kind of faux assumption that multiple Legions are somehow a problem.

Are you actually saying my way won't work? That it won't sell well?
As long as there's A-list talent, I think going any route would sell decently enough.

Samy

07-23-2009, 08:51 PM

In any case, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the book, nothing that required an entire reboot to fix.Agreed. They could've just put Johns and Frank on THE LEGION after Gail's arc and a new #1 and I think the book would have been fixed.

Alas, it wasn't. It was still a B-list book and that's why it got cancelled. Nothing may have been fundamentally wrong, no, but I don't exactly remember rave reviews like it was the BLUE BEETLE of its day.

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 08:56 PM

Only B-list talent has been present during the book's failures. What needs be focused on during a relaunch is A-list talent. [...]As long as there's A-list talent, I think going any route would sell decently enough.

Although it's important to remember that the Legion's greatest successes have come under A-list talent that nobody knew was A-list until they proved it on the Legion. Shooter, Bates, Cockrum, Grell, Levitz, Giffen... how many of them were already famous and acclaimed when they took over the Legion? True, it's different now, but look at Francis Manapul. Before his run on the threeboot he was just another up-and-coming guy. Now he's got his own panel in San Diego this year.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 08:57 PM

"More then one failed title? Seems like a problem to me."

Thats not an opinion, thats a fact, the book has trouble keeping the title going.

[quote]The part I disagree on is the part you now left out -- that it must be mandated that the other Legions are never mentioned again.
Thats to make continuty easier, unless Busiek can pull another Avengers Forever out of his ass.

look at the sales of L3W!
Thats because Johns is sooo popular right now, it has popular characters.

Samy

07-23-2009, 09:02 PM

[QUOTE=Samy;9332251]Thats not an opinion, thats a fact, the book has trouble keeping the title going.
No, that's most definitely an opinion. That's *par for the course* for a fifty year old non-Trinity book. That's like saying that it's a problem for a guy to get gray hairs when they approach sixty. It's not a problem. It's normal. It may not be desirable but it's normal. As I said multiple times, Legion is actually one of the more successful non-Trinity brands: near-continuous publication for 50 years, only three relaunches. That's a pretty great track record.

Thats to make continuty easierAnd you keep perpetuating the mistaken opinion that "difficult continuity" has been any kind of a problem. It hasn't. B-list talent has been the problem each time the book has been cancelled. Look it up.

Thats because Johns is sooo popular right now, it has popular characters.So it's proven that A-list talent *can* make Legion sell, even without wiping away the other two Legions. Good, thanks for proving my point.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 09:07 PM

No, that's most definitely an opinion. That's *par for the course*
No it's not and even when it has happened in titles like JSA, at least they didn't create a new timeline. it's not the same thing.

And you keep perpetuating the mistaken opinion that "difficult continuity" has been any kind of a problem. It hasn't. [/quote]
Thats your opinion, COIE proves otherwise.

So it's proven that A-list talent *can* make Legion sell, even without wiping away the other two Legions. Good, thanks for proving my point.
What Busiek did with Avengers and marvel continuity in "Avengers Forever" I have never seen anyone else accomplish.

My way is easier, simpler and much more likely then someone being able to do what he did.

Samy

07-23-2009, 09:12 PM

No it's not and even when it has happened in titles like JSA, at least they didn't create a new timeline. it's not the same thing.No, it's not the exact same thing, but the differences are trivial. It's silly to claim a book is any more of a failure because some books' relaunches created alternate timelines and some books' didn't. Those were just storytelling choices and have no bearing on whether the books were failures or not.

Legion has vastly more published issues from 1958-2008 than JSA does. And that makes it a more successful property over the last 50 years. (If we included the last *70* years it might be a closer call though.) The alternate timelines are trivial in-story data that has no bearing on the real, actual, factual NUMBERS.

Legion is a successful property. None of your "alternate timeline" schamangling and weaseling changes that.

Thats your opinion, COIE proves otherwise.
That's your opinion. COIE's (and COME's) sales prove that the multiple earths concept is very popular with readers.

My way is easier, simpler and much more likely then someone being able to do what he did.
There's a lot of sayings about taking the easier, simpler road.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 09:17 PM

No, it's not the exact same thing, but the differences are trivial.
Thats your opinion.

That's your opinion. COIE's (and COME's) sales prove that the multiple earths concept is very popular with readers.
The people who made COIE even stated thats why they got rid of the multiverse.

There's a lot of sayings about taking the easier, simpler road.
Was that meant to mean anything?

Matthew E

07-23-2009, 09:18 PM

Another interesting thing about the Legion's future: Johns said today in San Diego that we'd eventually be seeing all three Legions in Adventure. I wonder if this has anything to do with something DiDio said a while ago, that DC was going to let the fans decide which version of the Legion would ultimately prevail.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 09:21 PM

dataweaver

07-23-2009, 11:03 PM

Coming in late, so my points may already have been addressed.

I think that Geoff's move to place each Legion in a parallel universe (rather than the old "serial universes" model) was brilliant. I think, also, that multiple Legions have exactly as much of a place in the DCU as the Multiverse does. Heck, we've already seen a fourth Legion, in the final pages of JSA's "Thy Kingdom Come" story arc (and in the early pages of "Kingdom Come", for that matter). The only way that we're going to end up with only one Legion will be if DC destroys its new Multiverse. I don't see them doing so in the near future; and possibly never again - though I won't be surprised if there's eventually a massive revision of the Multiverse's structure.

This isn't the first time that I've seen the "there can be only one!" attitude among fans. I remember the bad old days when Kyle Rayner fans and Hal Jordan fans were sniping at each other, each convinced that the only way they'd be able to have their favorite Green Lantern would be for the other camp to be denied their favorite. Then Geoff Johns came along with Green Lantern: Rebirth and proved that Hal and Kyle (and John and Guy) could coexist quite nicely, thank you. We're getting more of the same with the Legions: each one is being given its own role to play, resulting in a scenario where they can coexist without feeling redundant. The difference is that you need multiple universes to make it work with multiple Legions.

Bakura

07-23-2009, 11:10 PM

Coming in late, so my points may already have been addressed.

I think that Geoff's move to place each Legion in a parallel universe (rather than the old "serial universes" model) was brilliant.

I still think it would be better to stick with one legion and one history.

This isn't the first time that I've seen the "there can be only one!" attitude among fans. I remember the bad old days when Kyle Rayner fans and Hal Jordan fans were sniping at each other,.
Thats completely different. Having more then one Earth GL has never been much of a problem the way the multiverse was.

dataweaver

07-23-2009, 11:31 PM

I still think it would be better to stick with one legion and one history.Think of it this way: New Earth does have one Legion and one history. The existence of the Prime and Wandering Legions no more invalidates this than the existence of the Crime Syndicate of Amerika invalidates the fact that New Earth has one Justice League of America and one history for it.

Also, consider this: the Legion of Superheroes has always been the preeminent sci-fi team of the DC Universe. As such, they touch upon various sci-fi tropes more naturally than anyone else published by DC. Parallel universes are a rather common sci-fi trope; so why shouldn't the Legion indulge in it?

Personally, I'd like to see what became of the Antimatter Earth over the intervening thousand years: if the Adult Legion didn't already have an evil counterpart in the Legion of Supervillains, the CSA's next-millennium successors would fill the role nicely. I'm also looking forward to seeing what the Wandering Legion finds during their travels; as a fan of the DCU of the 90's, I'm still holding out hope that maybe someday they'll stumble across (or possibly even trigger the creation of) a universe not unlike the one that they (and I) lost.

Calybos

07-24-2009, 06:13 AM

I still think it would be better to stick with one legion and one history.

Yes, I believe you've mentioned that once or twice.

Seriously, Bakura... we get it. We fully and completely understand your suggestion for the next Legion title. Mission Accomplished, okay? The horse is dead; you can rest now.

.

Sandy Hausler

07-24-2009, 06:29 AM

Yes it is, it may not make the fanboys happy, but it is practical. Your way has been tried and failed.

Wrong. Writers will always come back to it. (An example, not Legion related, was the Spider-Clone Saga in Spider-Man.) It's just a matter of time.

Sandy Hausler

EDIT: I note that Samy has made this point. Sorry for being repetitiously redundent.

Sandy Hausler

07-24-2009, 06:35 AM

It's useing two or three continuities thats the problem and history has shown that it's not viable.

Mine can as long as the editors and writers are forced to stick to it.

So you want DC run by Hitler? I don't know how the JSA would feel about that. Samy's right. That's not the kind of inflexible rule that ever sticks forever.

It's funny that you support the Crisis (eliminating alternate worlds) when the Crisis was the reason for the continuity problems in the Legion of Super Heroes.

Sandy Hausler

Sandy Hausler

07-24-2009, 06:38 AM

DC employs editors therefore it can place restrictions on them.

DC is a corporation. It's the editors (and other employees) who make the decisions of the rules in place and how they are implemented. DC doesn't place restrictions. Its employees do. (I guess the board of Warner Communications could place restrictions on DC, but that's not very likely.)

Sandy Hausler

Bakura

07-24-2009, 08:39 AM

Think of it this way: New Earth does have one Legion and one history. The existence of the Prime and Wandering Legions no more invalidates this than the existence of the Crime Syndicate of Amerika invalidates the fact that New Earth has one Justice League of America and one history for it.

I don't think you understand my concern at all. Its not an issue of invalidating, Its an issue of complicated continuity. One Legion, with one history is easier to manage and easier for newer readers to get into.

And Sandy, yes I do think it would be better and solve many problems not just for Legion but for comics in generalis more restrictions were placed on writers and editors so they don't screw too much with the characters. Using your example, "The Clone Saga" almost killed the Spider-man series.

Matthew E

07-24-2009, 08:46 AM

I don't think you understand my concern at all. Its not an issue of invalidating, Its an issue of complicated continuity. One Legion, with one history is easier to manage and easier for newer readers to get into.

No, we really do understand it. We are intelligent people, comfortable with complexity and nuance, and able to process simple propositions. There is a long list of things that we understand so readily that it's a little surprising when someone suggests that we might not understand it, and among the things on that list are:

- your idea that Legion continuity needs to be simple for readers to understand it
- Legion continuity

Now can we please talk about something else?

Artificial idiot

07-24-2009, 09:00 AM

Bakura

07-24-2009, 09:04 AM

No, we really do understand it. We are intelligent people, comfortable with complexity and nuance, and able to process simple propositions. There is a long list of things that we understand so readily that it's a little surprising when someone suggests that we might not understand it, and among the things on that list are:

- your idea that Legion continuity needs to be simple for readers to understand it
- Legion continuity

Now can we please talk about something else?

If you don't like it find another thread or forum.

I want a way for Legion to becomme viable as a comic. And one of the ways to do that is to lose the baggage of the extra legions and their history.

As somebody whose never read the Legion outside of the workd Johns has done on them recently (I'd love to read some of the older stuff, I just don't quite know where to start)

^ My point

Instead of your fantasy of pleasing every fanboy out there. My way makes it simple and easy for new and old readers to get into the series. And then get a good creative team behind it.

Matthew E

07-24-2009, 09:27 AM

Well, moving onto something else! :D

As somebody whose never read the Legion outside of the workd Johns has done on them recently (I'd love to read some of the older stuff, I just don't quite know where to start) I'd say I'm more than ready for an ongoing title with them in. In fact, I'd prefer an ongoing to the back-up in Adventure Comics that's currently being produced. I have no interest in Conner Kent, but I'm very interested to see what can be done with the Legion. So much so I'll probably pick up Adventure Comics regardless... So from the perspective of a new fan - Yes, I'd very much like to see an ongoing, and yes I hope they do have a future as they seem a great team.

The best thing I can recommend to you is to write DC Comics a letter saying what you just said there. Otherwise, they might think that you're buying Adventure because you like Conner.

As for catching up on old Legion stuff, it's not as hard as people make it sound. They're superhero comics, not quantum physics textbooks written in Sanskrit. Pick up some cheap back issues someplace, and if you come across anything you like, look for more like them. None of it's so complicated that you can't pick it up as you go along.

Artificial idiot

07-24-2009, 09:30 AM

The best thing I can recommend to you is to write DC Comics a letter saying what you just said there. Otherwise, they might think that you're buying Adventure because you like Conner.

As for catching up on old Legion stuff, it's not as hard as people make it sound. They're superhero comics, not quantum physics textbooks written in Sanskrit. Pick up some cheap back issues someplace, and if you come across anything you like, look for more like them. None of it's so complicated that you can't pick it up as you go along.
It's not really any fear that the contents are complicated that are keeping me back, it's more that aside from going on Ebay back issues are hard to come across. I live in the UK, nowhere near a comic shop and prefer to read older stuff in trade format rather than indivdual comics. And the fact that I really don't know where to start... What issues, what storylines. it's the same with any old comic that's ran a long time, I guess.

Matthew E

07-24-2009, 09:41 AM

It's not really any fear that the contents are complicated that are keeping me back, it's more that aside from going on Ebay back issues are hard to come across. I live in the UK, nowhere near a comic shop and prefer to read older stuff in trade format rather than indivdual comics. And the fact that I really don't know where to start... What issues, what storylines. it's the same with any old comic that's ran a long time, I guess.

Oh, okay. Well, there aren't a lot of trade collections of Legion stuff. I think the whole threeboot was collected in trade, so you might try that. There are, famously, a couple of trades of Levitz material (An Eye for an Eye and The More Things Change) that have come out recently; those would be a good place to start.

If you want to get into individual back issues (and there are various online stores that sell them. Midtown, Mile-High, lots of others), my recommended jumping-on point is LSH Annual #1, from... 1980, 1981, around there, entitled "Monster in a Little Girl's Mind". Comes right at the start of the Levitz era and is the perfect introduction to the Legion; a very good story.

Bakura

07-24-2009, 09:41 AM

As for catching up on old Legion stuff, it's not as hard as people make it sound. None of it's so complicated that you can't pick it up as you go along.

Well DC and the people behind COIE would dissagree with you.

And the fact that I really don't know where to start... What issues, what storylines. it's the same with any old comic that's ran a long time, I guess.

^ Why it would be easier to just have one legion and one history.

KYLeo71

07-24-2009, 09:46 AM

Well DC and the people behind COIE would dissagree with you.
Then I suppose they're not as smart as the people who read LoSH. Also, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't it the original Crisis that made the Legion complicated to begin with? Besides, when I started reading LoSH, they'd already been around for 20+ years. I just picked it up, started reading, and didn't have much problem figuring things out. I suppose kids those days were just smarter than they are now.

Matthew E

07-24-2009, 09:51 AM

Well DC and the people behind COIE would dissagree with you.

Then they're wrong, that's all. I was a little kid when I first ran into DC's parallel-earths setup, and I had no trouble with it (just for instance). It's just not that hard to understand.

I mean, you might find it hard to understand. Don't feel bad if you do; there's no way of predicting what's just not going to click with some people for no apparent reason. I heard of a university student once who didn't understand what it meant that the world was round. So it's okay; we won't think less of you.

But all the same, that's no reason that the rest of us should be deprived of two perfectly good versions of the Legion. We understand how it works and we don't mind. To partially quote something a very wise man once said, "If you don't like it find another comic book."

Samy

07-24-2009, 11:30 AM

Well DC and the people behind COIE would dissagree with you.
The people behind COIE are no longer at meaningful decision-making roles at DC. There are different people now, who see what a mistake COIE was. Why do you think it was reversed?

Artificial idiot

07-24-2009, 11:45 AM

Oh, okay. Well, there aren't a lot of trade collections of Legion stuff. I think the whole threeboot was collected in trade, so you might try that. There are, famously, a couple of trades of Levitz material (An Eye for an Eye and The More Things Change) that have come out recently; those would be a good place to start.

If you want to get into individual back issues (and there are various online stores that sell them. Midtown, Mile-High, lots of others), my recommended jumping-on point is LSH Annual #1, from... 1980, 1981, around there, entitled "Monster in a Little Girl's Mind". Comes right at the start of the Levitz era and is the perfect introduction to the Legion; a very good story.

Thanks a lot for the recomendation. Just ordered the annual and a few other LoSH issues from around about the same time period. :smile:

Matthew E

07-24-2009, 11:59 AM

Thanks a lot for the recomendation. Just ordered the annual and a few other LoSH issues from around about the same time period. :smile:

Cool, hope you enjoy 'em. Depending on which ones you got, there might be some in there with Pat Broderick art. Giffen was awesome in that period, but there was always something about Broderick's stuff that particularly appealed to me.

Bakura

07-24-2009, 03:56 PM

Then they're wrong, that's all.
Sorry I take their word over your opinion any day.

I mean, you might find it hard to understand.

No I don't, but one title with one history is a better way to re-present the series to the ocmic readers.

But all the same, that's no reason that the rest of us should be deprived of two perfectly good versions of the Legion.

Well you can't always please the fan boys, I would much rather have a viable long running series done my way then a short lived one that sucks up the the fanboys.

dataweaver

07-24-2009, 05:05 PM

Ah; I get it now. This isn't a rant against there being multiple Legions; it's a rant against there being a Multiverse. You, Bakura, want the new Multiverse to go the way of the old one, and you want DC Comics to focus exclusively on a single continuity, with no chance of crossovers with alternate universes. I can respect that; I used to hold a similar position myself.

What is your opinion of the Elseworlds stories that were published in the 90's? Did you mind that Batman/Dracula and Gotham By Gaslight couldn't be fit into the DC continuity? If not, why not? Golden Age might have been fit into the single continuity that they had going there; it was certainly written that way by James Robinson. When the editorial staff decided that they didn't want it to be in continuity, should they have refused to publish it altogether? How about Kingdom Come? At the time that it was published, it was a reasonable extrapolation of what the then-current DC universe might one day become. The editors could have decided to put it fully into continuity, at which point the writers would have been denied the opportunity to tell any stories that would have invalidated any aspect of Kingdom Come - for instance, JSA would not have been permitted to be launched by the death of Wesley Dodds, because Wesley was fated to die in the opening events of Kingdom Come. Lois would have been destined to be murdered by the Joker. And so on.

If you don't mind Elseworlds tales, then you don't mind alternate universes. Unless your complaint is with crossovers? Did you mind Morrison's Earth 2, or the Worlds Collide crossover between the Superman titles and the Milestone titles? How about the DC/Marvel crossover event that resulted in a later in-continuity encounter between Kyle Rayner and Access? What about the JLA/Avengers title that resulted in the Cosmic Egg that the JLA subsequently kept under observation? Did you have a problem with the Time Trapper creating a "pocket universe" whence the Legion's Superboy and the Matrix Supergirl came? How is that not an alternate reality?

Bakura

07-24-2009, 05:16 PM

Ah; I get it now.
Partially, yes I do think a multiverse is a bad idea. It's unessecary and causes continuity issues. But with the Legion it's more then that, every time the legion has failed, their solution has been to create a whole new legion with a whole new timeline. And it's failed. I think the best way to "re-start" the Legion is to find the one thats most popular, ditch the others, flip off the fanboys and go from there with the best writer and artist they can find.

Paul Newell

07-24-2009, 05:23 PM

Well DC and the people behind COIE would dissagree with you.

^ Why it would be easier to just have one legion and one history.
Bakura, you've made your point. It's time to back off. I'll not have you hassling other posters or inviting others to leave. First warning.

Bakura

07-24-2009, 05:25 PM

Bakura, you've made your point. It's time to back off. I'll not have you hassling other posters or inviting others to leave. First warning.

I am not inviting them to leave, they seem to think that they can post and I can't respond, as long as your pals are allowed to post so am I. You can give as many warnings as you like.

dataweaver

07-24-2009, 05:34 PM

But with the Legion it's more then that, every time the legion has failed, their solution has been to create a whole new legion with a whole new timeline.
How do you define failure? Was the book failing when Giffen took over and instigated the "Five Years Later" change? Was the book failing when editorial decree mandated the removal of Superboy from the Legion - and shortly thereafter mandated that all references to Superboy be removed? Was the book failing when Giffen blew up the Earth and left the title? The book was failing when DnA took over and did the "Legion Lost" miniseries; in fact, said miniseries was a last-ditch attempt to save the book. I mention it in particular because it's an example where DC's response to the title's impending failure was not to create a whole new Legion with a whole new timeline.

Furthermore, Legion of Three Worlds is also not a case of creating a whole new Legion with a whole new timeline. Yes, it involves multiple Legions and multiple timelines (which relates to your comments about the Multiverse being a bad thing - and incidently, I note that you didn't address any of my questions on this matter); but it doesn't involve the creation of more Legions or histories.

I think the best way to "re-start" the Legion is to find the one thats most popular, ditch the others, flip off the fanboys and go from there with the best writer and artist they can find.
I'm glad you're not the one calling the shots, then.

Paul Newell

07-24-2009, 05:56 PM

I am not inviting them to leave, they seem to think that they can post and I can't respond, as long as your pals are allowed to post so am I. You can give as many warnings as you like.
If you don't like it find another thread or forum.

And I won't be giving warnings, I'll be giving bannings for troling....Now dial it down a notch or your time at CBR will be limited.

Thank you.

Bakura

07-24-2009, 05:57 PM

How do you define failure?
An ongoing title being discontinued is a good place to start.

I'm glad you're not the one calling the shots, then.
Why? Becuase I care more about the title being viable then pandering to fanboys? One Legion with one history is easier for everyone to get on board with.

Bakura

07-24-2009, 05:57 PM

And I won't be giving warnings, I'll be giving bannings for troling....Now dial it down a notch or your time at CBR will be limited.

Thank you.

If thats what it takes, but I have every bit as much right to speak my mind as your friends do.

dataweaver

07-24-2009, 06:26 PM

An ongoing title being discontinued is a good place to start.Then note that the "Legion of Superheroes" and "Legionnaires" titles were discontinued in the early 2000's, followed immediately by the "Legion Lost" miniseries and a bit later by "Legion Worlds" and "The Legion". This is an example of DC not responding to a book's failure by rebooting the team. And again, "Legion of Three Worlds" and the upcoming "Adventure Comics" don't introduce a new Legion.

Note also that "Legion of Superheroes" and "Legionnaires" were not discontinued in 1995, when Zero Hour rebooted the Legion - so at least one of the reboots was not in response to the cancellation of the title(s). And does the discontinuation of the original Adventure Comics count as a failure? If so, that's another example where DC didn't respond by rebooting the history. If not, it's an example where the discontinuation of a book does not mean that it failed.

Would you care to revise your definition of failure?

Bakura

07-24-2009, 09:08 PM

And again, "Legion of Three Worlds" and the upcoming "Adventure Comics" don't introduce a new Legion.
No but they don't nessecarily commit to using one legion and one history either.

Would you care to revise your definition of failure?
When a comic cannot make it past issue 50, that is a failure.

dataweaver

07-25-2009, 12:00 AM

No but they don't necessarily commit to using one legion and one history either.
No, they don't. And personally, I can't wait to see what they will do.

When a comic cannot make it past issue 50, that is a failure.So you're saying that LSH wasn't failing when it was canceled for the "Legion Lost" miniseries?

janarrah1

03-31-2010, 08:10 AM

I can't wait until May for the new series to begin. They seem to have done their homework this time and tied the Legion more closely to the mainstream DC universe than at any time since the FIRST Legion. I can't wait to see which characters are used and what happens to Element Lad......my favorite character!

Lunar Archivist

03-31-2010, 10:26 AM

I want a way for Legion to becomme viable as a comic. And one of the ways to do that is to lose the baggage of the extra legions and their history.

They've used the strategy of dumping entire Legions and their histories twice now, once for the "original" and once for the "reboot" version. It didn't work either time and it's taken 25 years for them to go full circle and go back to the original version that started it all. If they just kept trying to find one that worked immediately, we'd probably end up having to go through the 31st centuries of all 52 Earths in the DC Multiverse.

If you want a viable Legion, embrace its history, Silver Age insanity and all. It can be done. Say what you want about Geoff Johns, but he took the concept of life-force-exchanging miniature lightning rods and made it seem poignant in "The Lightning Saga". The key to writing anything well, from comic books to scientific papers, is to do the research and take the subject material seriously. If you do that, then your readers will as well.

I think that the status quo right now is pretty neat. For the first time ever, all three versions of the Legion of Super-Heroes coexist side by side, no one less real or valid than the other. Creators can theoretically go and write stories using whichever versions of the characters they want without having to worry about continuity too much. Personally, I'd love to see the adventures of "reboot" Legion as they do some Exiles-type hopping through the DC Multiverse and Hypertime.

Porcupine

03-31-2010, 08:30 PM

I'm liking this new/old whatever Legion very much. My favorite Legionaire is Bouncing Boy. He's back along with some obscure Legionaires like Tellus and Quislet. Also like XS who is around as well. The way I see it is there are enough of three legions to make everyone happy. DC made quite a mess of the Legion over the years and now Johns figured out a way to put them back together. I think he did a fine job considering the mess some of the other writers left him with. A poster mentioned a key word that most writers don't give a rats ass about. Research! Or basically have any of them ever flipped through the pages of a mag of the company they work for? Bendis is famous for not ever reading anything from the past or a comic book for that matter. Just wreckless incontinuous writing as far as I'm concerend. These writers should at least know something about a title or concepts past before they go and write what they want to write. To me that is just lazy when they don't do any research. It can make a mess for the next writers to fix. Johns actually reads comic books. Some of these guys never picked up a comic in their life and it shows at times with a total disrespect of what another writer did.