I like Menace...there I said it.

[BlackToe]

I just got the current and past issues of CA, and I have to say I'm surprised at myself for actually investing interest in this character.

Well done with the origin scene with Harry. (Even though I personally greatly dislike JRjr)

[Patrick Hultquist]

I just got the current and past issues of CA, and I have to say I'm surprised at myself for actually investing interest in this character.

Well done with the origin scene with Harry. (Even though I personally greatly dislike JRjr)

Greatly disliking JRjr - um, well, sorry - Blasphemy!!!

But I respect your right to your opinion.:biggrin:
I actually think Menace has some decent potential, but unfortunately, a lot of it seems to depend on what is done with Harry. I'm not sure she stands out on her own as well now that it's been revealed that she's Lilly.

[Dr. Chaos]

Dammit.

The more I protest, the more this character seems to grow on people.

Hmm...I should probably lay low for awhile.

[RDMacQ]

I actually think Menace has some decent potential, but unfortunately, a lot of it seems to depend on what is done with Harry. I'm not sure she stands out on her own as well now that it's been revealed that she's Lilly.

Maybe Menace can be used as a principle antagonist for MJ who is starting her superhero career as Jackpot!!!! (yeah, I know, snowball's chance in hell of that happening, but if you're going to dream, dream big!)

[RDMacQ]

Dammit.

The more I protest, the more this character seems to grow on people.

Hmm...I should probably lay low for awhile.

S/he ain't growin' on me none! (wow, there is a dirty joke in there somewhere, I just know it.)

[Patrick Hultquist]

Maybe Menace can be used as a principle antagonist for MJ who is starting her superhero career as Jackpot!!!! (yeah, I know, snowball's chance in hell of that happening, but if you're going to dream, dream big!)

You know, if MJ was going to become a super-hero, I'd rather she become apprentice to Dr. Strange. I mean, if she's aware of the deal and the marriage, then wouldn't she start fighting somehow to get it back? And since she knows she's dealing with Mephisto, then magic would be her best and easiest shot of acquiring some power of her own, wouldn't it?

I'm just wondering if/when Harry Goblins out again, will he side with Menace or against her?

[oldschool]

Nothin' to be ashamed about; I like Menace also! There is some real originality here that has potential to be a long-term character, something sorely lacking these days in comics......let's see if they can delliver!

[yadadaimhollaing]

nwtd transformed me into a menace fan. im glad that the story has continued to be good. guggenheim took a risky aproach inventing yet another goblin :rolleyes: through good story telling menace is now looked at as an interesting character. good stuff and way to go.

[RDMacQ]

You know, if MJ was going to become a super-hero, I'd rather she become apprentice to Dr. Strange. I mean, if she's aware of the deal and the marriage, then wouldn't she start fighting somehow to get it back? And since she knows she's dealing with Mephisto, then magic would be her best and easiest shot of acquiring some power of her own, wouldn't it?

I'm just wondering if/when Harry Goblins out again, will he side with Menace or against her?

I'm not so sure about making MJ into a mystic character. The Spider-Totem stuff wasn't that well received, and while I am for upping MJ's status into a full time superhero I think having a permanent magical character in the book would be a continual point of contention. But I guess I'm looking towards the point where the deal is addressed and afterwards.

If Harry goes Goblin again, it might be interesting if he goes against Menace. Y'know, on the surface Harry and Lily seem like this perfect couple yet they are literally at each others throats and have their relationship be a counterpoint to Peter and MJ's (who, lets face it, is the big return Marvel is promoting in the books.)

[Winter Bolt]

I hate JP and Menace, but I can fully get behind the idea of making MJ the new Sorceress Supreme and just taking her the hell out of ASM and make her the psychologist she was meant to be (a better one then that stupid Samson). If that were the ultimate payback against beating the shit out Meph down the line then it's a great payoff.

Really... just take MJ out of the book all together and let her grow up. She would honestly if used wisely in any well thought out super hero capacity become the female face of Marvel. Of course... Marvel would screw that up utterly and she has Meph taint all over her. New Sorceror Supreme will most likely be completely stupid anyway.

[Shade 20x6]

I still don't care much for Menace. Feels like a cross between Bart Hamilton and Ultimate Green Goblin.

[Un0]

I just got the current and past issues of CA, and I have to say I'm surprised at myself for actually investing interest in this character.

Well done with the origin scene with Harry. (Even though I personally greatly dislike JRjr)

I agree with almost everything said here (I don't greatly dislike JRJR...just find some of his work boring). And I wasnt too thrilled with the new issue.

BUT I like Menace.

[RDMacQ]

I hate JP and Menace, but I can fully get behind the idea of making MJ the new Sorceress Supreme and just taking her the hell out of ASM and make her the psychologist she was meant to be (a better one then that stupid Samson). If that were the ultimate payback against beating the shit out Meph down the line then it's a great payoff.

Really... just take MJ out of the book all together and let her grow up. She would honestly if used wisely in any well thought out super hero capacity become the female face of Marvel. Of course... Marvel would screw that up utterly and she has Meph taint all over her. New Sorceror Supreme will most likely be completely stupid anyway.

While I'm all for giving MJ a superhero makeover, I think I'd be comfortable with her staying a model/ actress. Not a successful one mind you, but someone who is focused on her career and stays away from high paying gigs since they would only tend to be roles that focus more on her looks than anything else (you could even make a point of stating that she mostly gets offers roles of playing girls in high school because of her youthful looks, but I digress...)

And the thing of it is, I think that MJ is already the female face of Marvel. She certainly has had more mainstream exposure than other Marvel heroines. You don't see the Invisible Woman or Storm being mentioned on Family Guy or Eureka.

[StoneGold]

I like her better now that the mystery is over. Having her be Harry's even crazier girlfriend... there's something fun to that.

[GDB]

You know, if MJ was going to become a super-hero, I'd rather she become apprentice to Dr. Strange. I mean, if she's aware of the deal and the marriage, then wouldn't she start fighting somehow to get it back? And since she knows she's dealing with Mephisto, then magic would be her best and easiest shot of acquiring some power of her own, wouldn't it?


I'd like this idea, and maybe tweaked a little bit. I'd like her to still be somewhat accessible for Spider-books, which being a pure magic user doesn't really seem possible. However, it could work well if she became a mystical version of Iron Fist - a martial artist using the power of magic and sorcery to make herself into being more than just a martial artist. She doesn't even have to be a blackbelt or anything, just enough that she can dodge attacks without falling on herself like Strange does.

[Matt Linton]

I like Menace quite a bit. Thought the character was okay in the beginning, grew to like her more in NWTD, and I'm invested in the character because of Character Assassination.

I think the origin was drawn by Barry Kitson, though, wasn't it?

[yadadaimhollaing]

One thing about menace is I hate the shape shifting. I like the origion with the goblin formula vial dropping on the floor and lilly injesting the odor.

[Endless Flight]

I thought there were enough goblins already, and all of them are better than Menace. They have been basically sitting on the best Spider-Man villain of the last 25 years for a while now, and they bring her in?

[Jim Thompson]

I thought there were enough goblins already, and all of them are better than Menace. They have been basically sitting on the best Spider-Man villain of the last 25 years for a while now, and they bring her in?It does beg the question: What the heck so fascinates people about the Goblins?

[Endless Flight]

I don't know. I wish Norman would have stayed dead.

He's becoming the new Venom, so overused that everyone will be sick of him in ten years.

Marvel's committing many of the same sins they did during the 90s.

[hunter_peterson]

But not necrophilia. Or bestiality.

Heh.

[oldschool]

It does beg the question: What the heck so fascinates people about the Goblins?

Good question. For me, it is just a fantastic design/concept: a monstrous visage riding a glider tossing pumpkin bombs and razor bats! The goblin skill set is so well matched with Spidey's powers and abilities to web swing that it is a natural fit. Nowhere is this better illustrated than in the outstanding cover that John Romita Sr drew for the sadly short-lived magazine format of Spectacular Spiderman back in 1968 (I think...). Will try to get an image up!

[hunter_peterson]

But seriously, I like Menace. Not only does it take all the positives of the previous and alternate goblins, but she's engaged to Harry, and nuttier than him. She's crazier, more physically threatening, has daddy issues and is somewhat buisness-like.

And, not to mention, when Norman finds out about her he'll accept her as everything he's always wanted Harry and Peter to be. Probably. Or he'll throw her off a bridge.

EDIT: Oh, not to mention Menace is ridiculously fun to draw. When I inked her, I nearly cackled.

[Jim Thompson]

Good question. For me, it is just a fantastic design/concept: a monstrous visage riding a glider tossing pumpkin bombs and razor bats! The goblin skill set is so well matched with Spidey's powers and abilities to web swing that it is a natural fit. Nowhere is this better illustrated than in the outstanding cover that John Romita Sr drew for the sadly short-lived magazine format of Spectacular Spiderman back in 1968 (I think...). Will try to get an image up!See, I think the Goblin's abilities are well-matched to Spider-Man, but not the best matched: I'd give that honor to Doctor Octopus. I think his visuals are also more interesting, in the main.

[Regulus B.]

And, not to mention, when Norman finds out about her he'll accept her as everything he's always wanted Harry and Peter to be. Probably. Or he'll throw her off a bridge.

Throw in getting her pregnant somewhere in between and you're there.

[oldschool]

See, I think the Goblin's abilities are well-matched to Spider-Man, but not the best matched: I'd give that honor to Doctor Octopus. I think his visuals are also more interesting, in the main.

Gotta give Gobby the edge because the glider gives him a match for aerial battle but I am a huge Ock fan and consider Gobby and Ock to be almost a dead heat for Spidey's best villain so you won't get much argument from me on the merits of Otto!!:biggrin:

[Jim Thompson]

Gotta give Gobby the edge because the glider gives him a match for aerial battle but I am a huge Ock fan and consider Gobby and Ock to be almost a dead heat for Spidey's best villain so you won't get much argument from me on the merits of Otto!!:biggrin:Ock's brain power more than makes up for the glider, I think, but you're right in that there's little doubt the two are at the top of most people's list for being Spider-man's arc enemy. Makes it all the more interesting the two have never faced off.

[oldschool]

Well, let's not forget that Norman is also brilliant, he just happens to be much crazier than Ock! :wink:

Anyway, back to all these goblins.....I really did not think much of Menace initally, but really have warmed up to her (does that sound dirty?). I give Marvel credit for coming up with a unique take on the Goblin saga and one that may have legs. I recently posted that there is no reason to leave Hobgoblin on the shelf yet again since Norman is off the table as GG thanks to Dark Reign; well, maybe Menace can fill the void for now and maybe, just maybe if we are lucky, Hobby can make a return in a showdown with Menace!!:biggrin:

[Jim Thompson]

Well, let's not forget that Norman is also brilliant, he just happens to be much crazier than Ock! :wink: I don't think he's in Ock's league (though I think Peter may be). And I don't know as he's any crazier than Ock is, either. :tongue:


Anyway, back to all these goblins.....I really did not think much of Menace initally, but really have warmed up to her (does that sound dirty?). I give Marvel credit for coming up with a unique take on the Goblin saga and one that may have legs. I recently posted that there is no reason to leave Hobgoblin on the shelf yet again since Norman is off the table as GG thanks to Dark Reign; well, maybe Menace can fill the void for now and maybe, just maybe if we are lucky, Hobby can make a return in a showdown with Menace!!:biggrin:I don't see the take on Menace being so much unique as it is taking something done in USM and transferring it over to the 616 books.

HobGoblin remains, to my mind, the most unique thing done with the Green Goblin's legacy.

[oldschool]

I don't think he's in Ock's league (though I think Peter may be). And I don't know as he's any crazier than Ock is, either. :tongue:

I don't see the take on Menace being so much unique as it is taking something done in USM and transferring it over to the 616 books.

HobGoblin remains, to my mind, the most unique thing done with the Green Goblin's legacy.


While Hobby is my favorite of the Goblin spin-offs I cannot say he was particularly "unique". And we may need a poll to see who is crazier: Ock or Norman!! Gonna be close, I can tell ya that!!:biggrin:

[Jim Thompson]

While Hobby is my favorite of the Goblin spin-offs I cannot say he was particularly "unique". And we may need a poll to see who is crazier: Ock or Norman!! Gonna be close, I can tell ya that!!:biggrin:You're right, unique was likely a bad choice of words. Interesting was probably what I was driving at.

And yes, they are both off their rockers!

[CyberHubbs]

Wait, it sounds like too many people like Menace. Now I have to hate her. Damn my being so hip.

[Majinoaw]

Menace is a means to an end in the evolution of Harry Osborn. Hopefully she won't go the way off Cardiac ---- errrrr----- and actually have some breakout star potential. If not she'll just be another watered down foe in the next couple of years... hahahahahaahahah

[Jim Thompson]

Menace is a means to an end in the evolution of Harry Osborn. Hopefully she won't go the way off Cardiac ---- errrrr----- and actually have some breakout star potential. If not she'll just be another watered down foe in the next couple of years... hahahahahaahahahHer introduction is all just part of a much larger set-up for...

...wait for it...





Maximum Goblinage! :biggrin:

[David Walton]

Her introduction is all just part of a much larger set-up for...

...wait for it...





Maximum Goblinage! :biggrin:


LOL! There's actually some truth to that, and not in a bad way methinks.

I'm really interested to see Norman's reaction. I mean it could go any way. Because Lily looks like she might become Harry's "spine" Norman could see her as a rival for his hold on Harry or as a catalyst to "man" Harry up!

[Jim Thompson]

LOL! There's actually some truth to that, and not in a bad way methinks.

I'm really interested to see Norman's reaction. I mean it could go any way. Because Lily looks like she might become Harry's "spine" Norman could see her as a rival for his hold on Harry or as a catalyst to "man" Harry up!I think the idea might have some merit -- but frankly I'm Goblined out for a while.

[Endless Flight]

That's the way I felt about Venom in the 90s. I stopped reading the book for years because of that...and Todd McFarlane.

[ShaggyB]

I like Menace as well.... but ive been saying it since his/her first appearance

[David Walton]

You're right, unique was likely a bad choice of words. Interesting was probably what I was driving at.

And yes, they are both off their rockers!


Equally insane, but Ock is capable of a cold detachment that Norman has never sustained.

Norman is insane like "is he going to go postal and take out a bunch of people before he self-destructs" crazy.

Ock is crazy like "is he going to take out New York city and get away with it" insane.

Ultimately it's why I'd be more worried about Ock.

[oldschool]

I like Menace as well.... but ive been saying it since his/her first appearance

I wasn't ready to committ right away but am definitely a fan now after the reveal/back story. However the future possiblities are rich and, if Marvel follows thru and taps into this great potential, then we will have a truly worthy character and villain. But let's see how things go.....I've been let down many times before when these things have flamed out......

[Jim Thompson]

Equally insane, but Ock is capable of a cold detachment that Norman has never sustained.

Norman is insane like "is he going to go postal and take out a bunch of people before he self-destructs" crazy.

Ock is crazy like "is he going to take out New York city and get away with it" insane.

Ultimately it's why I'd be more worried about Ock.That's pretty much how I look at it, too.

[oldschool]

Equally insane, but Ock is capable of a cold detachment that Norman has never sustained.

Norman is insane like "is he going to go postal and take out a bunch of people before he self-destructs" crazy.

Ock is crazy like "is he going to take out New York city and get away with it" insane.

Ultimately it's why I'd be more worried about Ock.

Excellent post, Theo.....I have to agree 100% with all you said! Ock has several times been prepared to take out NYC without a second thought.....

[David Walton]

That's pretty much how I look at it, too.


Excellent post, Theo.....I have to agree 100% with all you said! Ock has several times been prepared to take out NYC without a second thought.....

Glad you guys agree. In some ways I think Ock is a much more difficult character to write because of this. It's much harder to come up with reasons why Ock doesn't succeed since he doesn't have that built in destruct mechanism that Norman does.

I think we're all pretty much agreed that Norman's worst enemy is Norman, and when he falls from grace it will be his own excesses that drag him down.

[oldschool]

Glad you guys agree. In some ways I think Ock is a much more difficult character to write because of this. It's much harder to come up with reasons why Ock doesn't succeed since he doesn't have that built in destruct mechanism that Norman does.

I think we're all pretty much agreed that Norman's worst enemy is Norman, and when he falls from grace it will be his own excesses that drag him down.

Yes, you're right on the money again.....it has been demonstrated time and again that Norman's obsession (not always hatred) of Peter/Spidey has blinded him to other goals. Ock has no such Achilles' heel in his relationship with Spidey.

[Jim Thompson]

Glad you guys agree. In some ways I think Ock is a much more difficult character to write because of this. It's much harder to come up with reasons why Ock doesn't succeed since he doesn't have that built in destruct mechanism that Norman does.

I think we're all pretty much agreed that Norman's worst enemy is Norman, and when he falls from grace it will be his own excesses that drag him down.Not only do I think Norman is very much his own worst enemy, I don't think hes particularly interesting anymore. I think his best stories are well behind him. I don't find him to be anywhere near as complex or interesting as the HobGoblin was. Shoot, even his kid was more interesting than Norman is, I think.

[David Walton]

Not only do I think Norman is very much his own worst enemy, I don't think hes particularly interesting anymore. I think his best stories are well behind him. I don't find him to be anywhere near as complex or interesting as the HobGoblin was. Shoot, even his kid was more interesting than Norman is, I think.

I think he's interesting, but I don't find him to be as interesting as he was dead. Doesn't mean I'd say it's a mistake to bring him back. I don't know. I just know that as a kid, the idea of Norman as a ghost who continued to haunt Harry and Peter with a more active agency than in life was just...haunting and poignant.

I was really surprised to discover that the Green Goblin had only made 14 appearances at the point of his death in ASM 122!

[Jim Thompson]

I think he's interesting, but I don't find him to be as interesting as he was dead. Doesn't mean I'd say it's a mistake to bring him back. I don't know. I just know that as a kid, the idea of Norman as a ghost who continued to haunt Harry and Peter with a more active agency than in life was just...haunting and poignant.I like the notion of Norman as a haunting spirit. That can certainly have some interesting things done with it.


I was really surprised to discover that the Green Goblin had only made 14 appearances at the point of his death in ASM 122!Yeah -- but that was back before Spidey saturated the market like he did for a while there.

[whiteshark]

Menace is a cool character.
Not as good as Norman Osborn,Harry Osborn,Hobgoblin or Jack o Lantern but still Menace wont be much behind them.

Green Goblins is way more crasier than Doc Ock IMO.

[The Complicated]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Character Assassination has made me like Menace a lot more than I used to, Lily was just so magnificently twisted in that interlude issue and the fact that she is Menace manages to make the book as a whole a lot more interesting because of all the fun chaos this could lead to within the supporting cast

[stillanerd]

If you think about it, Menace has a lot of strikes against her. First of all, Menace looked and acted too much like another Green Goblin knockoff; even Guggenheim had to concede in an interview he gave the Pulse that it was probably a mistake to have Menace look so much like another Goblin. Villains which are knock-offs of more popular villains, with very, very few exceptions, are always seen as poor imitations of the original, and that was the first impression nearly everyone got from Menace. And you know what they say about first impressions.

Secondly, the mystery surrounding Menace's identity, in part because the character was seen as a Goblin knock-off, wasn't that much of a mystery to begin with. Many people from the very first appearance of Menace pretty much guessed that Menace was female, connected with Harry Osborn in some way, and, while not stated then, had a vested interest in Hollister begin elected mayor. As a result, Lily or Carlie were the only likely suspects, and Lily just seemed far too obvious due to the fact that she was not only dating Harry but that her father just so happened to be the one benefiting from Menace's attacks.

Also, and think this is a bigger problem Brand New Day has had with its supporting characters overall, is that despite almost 40 issues leading up to Lily Hollister being revealed as Menace, we never really got to know or care about her as a character. All we knew was that she was Harry's girlfriend, was a bit spoiled, and that she deliberately flirted, and at one point outright tried to seduce, Peter, essentially being just another "spoiler" like Liz Allen or Mary Jane Watson once were (in fact, Lily seemed very much like how Liz Allen was originally portrayed under Stan Lee and Steve Ditko). Now, with her reveal as Menace, we get what looks like a drastic personality shift in that she's this insane and Machiavellian criminal mastermind who has a love/hate relationship with her father similar to what Harry has with his own father. Most of the reactions, I think, when Lily was revealed to be Menace that there seemed no way that she was capable of pulling this off on her own. But that wasn't because she was a woman born out of the fallacy that women aren't capable of such a thing, but rather based upon what we had already seen of her--that she was a pampered, spoiled, and loose socialite. Granted, as part of developing a mystery, we can't be given true insight into her character, but at the same time there should have at least been some indications besides being supportive of her father and seducing and flirting with Peter to suggest she was a more intelligent than she seemed and not above scheming.

Finally, My last problem with Menace is that she seems more or less a plot device rather than a fully developed character in her own right. She is just a catalyst to drive the election plot forward and is obviously a catalyst to have Harry revert back into becoming the Green Goblin once again. After her role in doing that is completed, what then? What more would she have to offer? It's suggested that there will be a continuation of the Peter, Harry, and Lily triangle, but because we know Lily is a crazy, homicidal supervillain, we don't want Peter or Harry to end up with her, so that's going to go nowhere (although it seems apparent that since Carlie is supposed to be the "good girl" were supposed to root for Peter and her to get together? I think there are those who would rather see Peter and MJ back together than that). It seems more apparent that she was created more or less for a particular story arc, that of the Femme Fettle, who, like Lady Macbeth, seduces and manipulates a character for her own personal agenda only to be driven into eventual madness and perhaps death. Not that Lily is going to die, or that her character can't be more salvageable, but as things stand now, it doesn't seem like she has a long shelf life.

[oldschool]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Character Assassination has made me like Menace a lot more than I used to, Lily was just so magnificently twisted in that interlude issue and the fact that she is Menace manages to make the book as a whole a lot more interesting because of all the fun chaos this could lead to within the supporting cast

I completely agree; now let's hope Marvel doesn't "screw the pooch" on this going forward. They have a bad record of letting characters with potential get away from them; let's hope they can reverse that trend here.

[The Complicated]

I completely agree; now let's hope Marvel doesn't "screw the pooch" on this going forward. They have a bad record of letting characters with potential get away from them; let's hope they can reverse that trend here.
Yeah, sure, you can nitpick and try to look at every perceived flaw or take the pessimistic approach and say that Marvel's gonna screw this up. I'm more optimistic in my attitude to the comics I read so I'm hopeful that they can do something interesting with Menace

[David Walton]

If you think about it, Menace has a lot of strikes against her. First of all, Menace looked and acted too much like another Green Goblin knockoff; even Guggenheim had to concede in an interview he gave the Pulse that it was probably a mistake to have Menace look so much like another Goblin. Villains which are knock-offs of more popular villains, with very, very few exceptions, are always seen as poor imitations of the original, and that was the first impression nearly everyone got from Menace. And you know what they say about first impressions.

I actually liked Menace's visual and felt it was about as distinctive as a Goblin legacy villain could be. For some reason Menace struck me as looking a lot like a 50s EC Comic horror concept. I found Menace visually creepier than the Green Goblin or the Hobgoblin.


Secondly, the mystery surrounding Menace's identity, in part because the character was seen as a Goblin knock-off, wasn't that much of a mystery to begin with. Many people from the very first appearance of Menace pretty much guessed that Menace was female, connected with Harry Osborn in some way, and, while not stated then, had a vested interest in Hollister begin elected mayor. As a result, Lily or Carlie were the only likely suspects, and Lily just seemed far too obvious due to the fact that she was not only dating Harry but that her father just so happened to be the one benefiting from Menace's attacks.

But if you look at the original Green Goblin mystery it might have been easy enough to peg Norman because IIRC he appears at Jameson's businessman club around the same as the Crimelord/GG storyline. Of course, readers weren't applying the same kind of scrutiny at the time.

The Hobgoblin Saga was actually much more satisfying in and of itself than both reveals--the Leeds reveal was expected, and the Kingsley reveal felt like it came out of left field (because of the timing issues).


Also, and think this is a bigger problem Brand New Day has had with its supporting characters overall, is that despite almost 40 issues leading up to Lily Hollister being revealed as Menace, we never really got to know or care about her as a character...Granted, as part of developing a mystery, we can't be given true insight into her character, but at the same time there should have at least been some indications besides being supportive of her father and seducing and flirting with Peter to suggest she was a more intelligent than she seemed and not above scheming.

I'm not sure what you're asking for here that you wouldn't have complained if you had gotten it?

At any rate, I think one advantage the Menace reveal has over both the Green Goblin and Hobgoblin reveals is that it opens up more possibilities. Lee didn't really know what to do with Norman when he wasn't GG, as evidenced by the oft-used amnesia device.

Hobby's story was pretty much over as either Ned Leeds (dead) or Kingsley (retired). (And it was a satisfying conclusion to his narrative arc.)

But with Lily there's a lot more latitude...the reveal essentially leads in to bigger payoffs than the mystery itself.


Finally, My last problem with Menace is that she seems more or less a plot device rather than a fully developed character in her own right. She is just a catalyst to drive the election plot forward and is obviously a catalyst to have Harry revert back into becoming the Green Goblin once again.

I doubt it. If anything, we'll see Harry struggling even harder to avoid going down that path...or he will attempt to take up the Goblin persona to right her wrongs out of a sense of responsibility. He'll flirt with the Goblin persona but I don't see him taking it up again permanently. They worked too hard to bring Harry back and it seems like the only narrative arc left for Harry as Goblin is yet another death.


but because we know Lily is a crazy, homicidal supervillain, we don't want Peter or Harry to end up with her

I totally want Harry to end up with her.


Not that Lily is going to die, or that her character can't be more salvageable, but as things stand now, it doesn't seem like she has a long shelf life.

Well, she's pretty distinctive. We've had a power-hungry, blood-thirsty goblin with impulse control issues. We've had a misguided legacy goblin with daddy issues. We've had a sane goblin seeking only personal gain.

Now we have a goblin who is dating Harry and is either his dream girl or his worst nighmares realized, one who has political ambitions, and who may be attracted to Peter or might have been distracting him--and who knows where she goes from here?

[RDMacQ]

Not only do I think Norman is very much his own worst enemy, I don't think hes particularly interesting anymore. I think his best stories are well behind him. I don't find him to be anywhere near as complex or interesting as the HobGoblin was. Shoot, even his kid was more interesting than Norman is, I think.

I can see where you are coming from. I feel that Norman's absence in the book allowed not only a haunting specter over Spider-Man's life, but it also allowed characters like the Hobgoblin and Venom to thrive and become more significant menaces. Hobgoblin filled the role of "goblin themed adversary" that was absent from the books for a significant time, but was still unique enough to be its own thing. And Venom filled the role of "deadly villain who knows Peter's secret" the the Goblin capitalized on. Now that Norman is back, those other two villains feel less special as a result as the originator of those traits is now back in the picture.

That is not to say that what is being down with Norman now isn't interesting. It seemed for the longest time the creators didn't know what to do with Norman after the initial shock of his reappearance wore off. He couldn't fill the role he had previously, and its hard to top the note he originally went out on. Now Marvel seems to be using Norman in an interesting way basically making him the big boss of the Marvel U. and putting him in a role he has never been before. He's stepped up from Peter's arch-enemy to a major threat to the Marvel U. as a whole.

[Jim Thompson]

I can see where you are coming from. I feel that Norman's absence in the book allowed not only a haunting specter over Spider-Man's life, but it also allowed characters like the Hobgoblin and Venom to thrive and become more significant menaces. Hobgoblin filled the role of "goblin themed adversary" that was absent from the books for a significant time, but was still unique enough to be its own thing. And Venom filled the role of "deadly villain who knows Peter's secret" the the Goblin capitalized on. Now that Norman is back, those other two villains feel less special as a result as the originator of those traits is now back in the picture.

That is not to say that what is being down with Norman now isn't interesting. It seemed for the longest time the creators didn't know what to do with Norman after the initial shock of his reappearance wore off. He couldn't fill the role he had previously, and its hard to top the note he originally went out on. Now Marvel seems to be using Norman in an interesting way basically making him the big boss of the Marvel U. and putting him in a role he has never been before. He's stepped up from Peter's arch-enemy to a major threat to the Marvel U. as a whole.One thing that works against Norman's character, for me, is that I think in a straight heads up match with the HobGoblin, Norman gets his @$$ handed to him. Norman just never has struck me as being as dangerous a foe for Peter.

[Patrick Hultquist]

Green Goblins is way more crasier than Doc Ock IMO.
Green Goblin is a psychopath. Doctor Octopus is a sociopath. Ultimately, Doc Ock is scarier, as he doesn't care about anyone.


I can see where you are coming from. I feel that Norman's absence in the book allowed not only a haunting specter over Spider-Man's life, but it also allowed characters like the Hobgoblin and Venom to thrive and become more significant menaces. Hobgoblin filled the role of "goblin themed adversary" that was absent from the books for a significant time, but was still unique enough to be its own thing. And Venom filled the role of "deadly villain who knows Peter's secret" the the Goblin capitalized on. Now that Norman is back, those other two villains feel less special as a result as the originator of those traits is now back in the picture.

That is not to say that what is being down with Norman now isn't interesting. It seemed for the longest time the creators didn't know what to do with Norman after the initial shock of his reappearance wore off. He couldn't fill the role he had previously, and its hard to top the note he originally went out on. Now Marvel seems to be using Norman in an interesting way basically making him the big boss of the Marvel U. and putting him in a role he has never been before. He's stepped up from Peter's arch-enemy to a major threat to the Marvel U. as a whole.

And now all the dynamics have changed with no one knowing the secret ID. That's more damaging than the unmasking was, in my opinion. Peter having villains with a personal edge to them was always excellent storytelling grist. Sure, Peter is "friends" with Lily, and Harry might Goblin out, but without them knowing how to hurt Spider-man personally, it seems slightly antiseptic as compared to stories past.

[RDMacQ]

One thing that works against Norman's character, for me, is that I think in a straight heads up match with the HobGoblin, Norman gets his @$$ handed to him. Norman just never has struck me as being as dangerous a foe for Peter.

I dunno. The Green Goblin was the first real opponent to battle Spidey to a stand still in their early appearances. He also scored a victory over Peter in abducting him, leading to that infamous image of the Goblin towing Peter over the New York skyline with Pete's ripped clothes revealing his Spider-Suit underneath. And lets not forget that the Goblin went toe to toe with Spidey on the Night Gwen Stacy Died preventing our hero from successfully saving her. You could argue that it was Peter's rage over Gwen's death that gave him the edge in their final encounter. Before, it was only Norman's fractured psyche that prevented their encounters from entering into a deadly stalemate.

[RDMacQ]

And now all the dynamics have changed with no one knowing the secret ID. That's more damaging than the unmasking was, in my opinion. Peter having villains with a personal edge to them was always excellent storytelling grist. Sure, Peter is "friends" with Lily, and Harry might Goblin out, but without them knowing how to hurt Spider-man personally, it seems slightly antiseptic as compared to stories past.

Like MJ being absent from the books, I doubt that Norman not knowing Pete's secret ID won't be something that lasts forever. Its just that with Norman's new position, it would be quite easy for him to bring the crushing weight of H.A.M.M.E.R down upon Spidey which would mean the end of the book. Dark Reign is definitely leading somewhere, and Norman not knowing Pete's ID is a key part of that I believe.

[stillanerd]

I actually liked Menace's visual and felt it was about as distinctive as a Goblin legacy villain could be. For some reason Menace struck me as looking a lot like a 50s EC Comic horror concept. I found Menace visually creepier than the Green Goblin or the Hobgoblin.

Okay, I can understand that. I'm saying that, as a villain, the immediate impression was "goblin knock-off" and a lot of readers dismissed Menace as a goblin knock-off from the get go. Perhaps if Menace didn't quite resemble the goblin character somehow while at the same time utilized aspects of it (sort of like Harry Osborn did in the third Spider-Man film) while still retaining the transformational aspect this goblin has, it might have been a bit better.


But if you look at the original Green Goblin mystery it might have been easy enough to peg Norman because IIRC he appears at Jameson's businessman club around the same as the Crimelord/GG storyline. Of course, readers weren't applying the same kind of scrutiny at the time.

In the case of the original Green Goblin mystery, that seemed to come out of left field because there really wasn't any indications that Norman Osborn, a character who was only properly introduced two issues before the Green Goblin's identity was revealed, was never even a viable suspect. Sure, issue #37 indicated that Osborn was a crooked businessman, but the Green Goblin? Hardly. And the whole Norman at the business club clue, IIRC, was used after the fact simply because the then unidentified character had a similar hair-style as depicted by Steve Ditko. Of course, rumor has it Ditko wanted the Green Goblin to be a nobody which, if the Jackpot reveal was anything to go by, would have been a terrible idea. Still, at least Norman Osborn ended up working out in the end.


The Hobgoblin Saga was actually much more satisfying in and of itself than both reveals--the Leeds reveal was expected, and the Kingsley reveal felt like it came out of left field (because of the timing issues).

Actually, I would consider the reverse to be true. Knowing that Roger Stern had intended the Hobgoblin to be Roderick Kingsley all along, there are clues within Roger Stern's run to suggest that was where he might have been heading. When Tom Deflaco was writing afterward, he intended the Hobgoblin to be revealed as Richard Fisk and Ned Leeds as the Rose. It was the Ned Leeds reveal, while there may have been some clues to suggest it was him (although they were meant to be red herrings) that came out of left field because, at the time, he was already dead as according to Spider-Man vs. Wolverine.


I'm not sure what you're asking for here that you wouldn't have complained if you had gotten it?

That if we had seen a bit more of what she was like as a character other than being the spoiled little rich girl and perhaps been given some deeper insight into the relationship between her father and herself, her relationship with Carlie, and scenes where Lily asks Harry about the Green Goblin, etc., in ways that didn't clue us in to the idea that she was Menace, it might have made readers care a little bit more about her so that when she was revealed as Menace, it would be all the more shocking.


At any rate, I think one advantage the Menace reveal has over both the Green Goblin and Hobgoblin reveals is that it opens up more possibilities. Lee didn't really know what to do with Norman when he wasn't GG, as evidenced by the oft-used amnesia device.

Hobby's story was pretty much over as either Ned Leeds (dead) or Kingsley (retired). (And it was a satisfying conclusion to his narrative arc.)

But with Lily there's a lot more latitude...the reveal essentially leads in to bigger payoffs than the mystery itself.

True, but it's a double-edged sword. The Green Goblin and Hobgoblin were not limited by the stories one could tell with them because they weren't created to be specifically tied-into one particular story arc. Sure, when Osborn was revealed to be the Green Goblin, Stan Lee had to come up with the amnesia plot in order to use him again, but he was just like the other villains in Spider-Man rogues gallery in that he could be used more than once. While the Hobgoblin may have been over after his reveal, there was also plenty of stories left for the character (although we did get Jason Macendale out of it) especially since there was no other villainous Goblin character until Harry went crazy. Lily as Menace, however, appears to have been created for a singular purpose, which is to make Harry Osborn into the Green Goblin once again. The mayoral election, as it turns out, is being used as a circumstance to make this happen. And after Menace ends up doing this, it does seem to make the character to have served her purpose and be expendable.


I doubt it. If anything, we'll see Harry struggling even harder to avoid going down that path...or he will attempt to take up the Goblin persona to right her wrongs out of a sense of responsibility. He'll flirt with the Goblin persona but I don't see him taking it up again permanently. They worked too hard to bring Harry back and it seems like the only narrative arc left for Harry as Goblin is yet another death.

Yes. But given that we've seen his shadow in Character Assassination resemble the Green Goblin twice now, given that he's been having emotional outbursts towards Lily even before he learned she was Menace, and given the pressure from his father, given his getting Goblin equipment (including a goblin mask as we are told in the latest issue according to Norman) it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that Harry is going to become the Green Goblin once again. Heck, I'm willing to bet that the Green Goblin Spider-Man is fighting on the cover is not Norman but Harry, and that it was Harry who attacked Air Force One as shown in the last Thunderbolts issue.


I totally want Harry to end up with her.

Yeah, like that's a long lasting relationship. :evilsmile:


Well, she's pretty distinctive. We've had a power-hungry, blood-thirsty goblin with impulse control issues. We've had a misguided legacy goblin with daddy issues. We've had a sane goblin seeking only personal gain.

Now we have a goblin who is dating Harry and is either his dream girl or his worst nighmares realized, one who has political ambitions, and who may be attracted to Peter or might have been distracting him--and who knows where she goes from here?

True, but in some ways, her story is very much like a combination of Harry's and the Hobgoblin's, in that she, like Harry, wants to please her father who she also thinks unappreciated her, and who, like the Hobgoblin, attempts to acquire power on the backs and accomplishments of others. Not to mention, as I said before, I think she's more or less a device, one of several mind you, that will eventually drive Harry into being the Green Goblin once again. Granted, there may be some use out of such a character, but in some ways, I'm seeing her more or less in the similar role that Carnage was in, in that just as Carnage was a knock-off of Venom who was an enemy of both Venom and Spider-Man, Menace is a knock-off of the Green Goblin who is an enemy of both Harry as the Green Goblin and Spider-Man.

[Jim Thompson]

I dunno. The Green Goblin was the first real opponent to battle Spidey to a stand still in their early appearances. He also scored a victory over Peter in abducting him, leading to that infamous image of the Goblin towing Peter over the New York skyline with Pete's ripped clothes revealing his Spider-Suit underneath. And lets not forget that the Goblin went toe to toe with Spidey on the Night Gwen Stacy Died preventing our hero from successfully saving her. You could argue that it was Peter's rage over Gwen's death that gave him the edge in their final encounter. Before, it was only Norman's fractured psyche that prevented their encounters from entering into a deadly stalemate.No -- the first villain to battle Spider-Man not just to a stand still, but to defeat him in a heads up match up was Doc Ock (ASM #3). And Ock continued to consistently present troubles to Spidey for years there after.

The Goblin gained stature as he went along, but Ock was trouble for Spidey from the git-go.

[whiteshark]

Green Goblin is a psychopath. Doctor Octopus is a sociopath. Ultimately, Doc Ock is scarier, as he doesn't care about anyone.



I have to disagree with you there.
Doc Ock cared about Aunt May,Stunner at one stage.:biggrin:

And Norman Osborn always looked more dangerous since in my prespective ,this character doesnt care about anybody.
I think lots of issues Harry have are because in how crazy Norman is.
I remember in a recent story in the start of NWTD Harry schows the business he made by himself(a coffe shop) to Norman.
And Norman just jokes of him. So by that line of thought Norman doesnt even care about his son.:eek:

[Patrick Hultquist]

I have to disagree with you there.
Doc Ock cared about Aunt May,Stunner at one stage.:biggrin:

And Norman Osborn always looked more dangerous since in my prespective ,this character doesnt care about anybody.
I think lots of issues Harry have are because in how crazy Norman is.
I remember in a recent story in the start of NWTD Harry schows the business he made by himself(a coffe shop) to Norman.
And Norman just jokes of him. So by that line of thought Norman doesnt even care about his son.:eek:

Doc Ock never cared about Aunt May. He was scamming her. I don't remember Stunner, so you may have a point there. However, Doc Ock caring about one single person is overshadowed by his willingness to wipe out NYC.
And while Norman doesn't care about Harry, he does care about Peter. That's been part of his character for a while. Norman rarely shows emotion for Harry unless Harry is in dire straits.

[RDMacQ]

No -- the first villain to battle Spider-Man not just to a stand still, but to defeat him in a heads up match up was Doc Ock (ASM #3). And Ock continued to consistently present troubles to Spidey for years there after.

The Goblin gained stature as he went along, but Ock was trouble for Spidey from the git-go.

Sure Dock Ock was the first bad guy to really put a beat down on Spidey, but Pete came back in the second round and took Ock down. Gobby, on the other hand, was a slippery foe that fled rather than fight to the end. Doc Ock was the principal villain in the books for a long time though, as it was only later that Gobby took the top spot as Spidey's #1 foe by making it real personal.

I'm just saying that Norman has shown to be a fairly dangerous foe to Spidey in the past. You also have to remember that the Hobgoblin had the benefit of sanity on his side, leading him to be more rational and less rash in his encounters with Spider-Man.

[RDMacQ]

Doc Ock never cared about Aunt May. He was scamming her. I don't remember Stunner, so you may have a point there. However, Doc Ock caring about one single person is overshadowed by his willingness to wipe out NYC.
And while Norman doesn't care about Harry, he does care about Peter. That's been part of his character for a while. Norman rarely shows emotion for Harry unless Harry is in dire straits.

Well, Doc Ock did show some concern for Aunt May in the story where Pete and May went to LA to visit MJ and they were attacked by that creep Carlysle. And he did show real emotion when he discovered that Stunner (a former love interest) sacrificed herself to bring Ock back to life.

Norman's bat @#$% crazy though. I don't think he actually knows what the difference between love and hate is. He subjected Peter to days of torture in order to "help" him but still would try to kill him time and again. One minute he curses Harry, the next he is protective of him. Norman's sick, very, very sick. He can show affection one minute and then show murderous rage the next. Like Bendis pointed out, Norman dresses up as a goblin and goes out and murders people, obsessively focusing on one individual time and again to try and ruin him. That's not the behavior of an individual who is emotionally stable.

[whiteshark]

Doc Ock never cared about Aunt May. He was scamming her. I don't remember Stunner, so you may have a point there. However, Doc Ock caring about one single person is overshadowed by his willingness to wipe out NYC.
And while Norman doesn't care about Harry, he does care about Peter. That's been part of his character for a while. Norman rarely shows emotion for Harry unless Harry is in dire straits.

Stunner first apeared in A.S.M.#397. A great story!
She was Doc girlfriend as far as i remember.

[hunter_peterson]

Throw in getting her pregnant somewhere in between and you're there.

Heh. I wonder if they'd make a litter? What with the screwy genetics... :biggrin:

[Mister Mets]

It does beg the question: What the heck so fascinates people about the Goblins?
They're very effective at fighting Spider-Man.

Flight, projectiles, various weapons and enhanced human abilities make for a visually interesting match against a webswinger.

[RDMacQ]

They're very effective at fighting Spider-Man.

Flight, projectiles, various weapons and enhanced human abilities make for a visually interesting match against a webswinger.

Plus the Green Goblin was the first villain to change the rules for bad guys in comics, by offing the protagonists love interest.

[Patrick Hultquist]

Plus the Green Goblin was the first villain to change the rules for bad guys in comics, by offing the protagonists love interest.

It begs the question: Was the Green Goblin the first super-villain to have lasting knowledge of his antagonist's secret ID? (I say lasting knowledge because I'm sure there were stories where someone discovered, say Superman is Clark Kent, but by the end of the issue, either Superman fooled him, or he got amnesia, or whatever rot they tried to pass as a story back then. I'm discounting those kinds of stories.)

[Alan2099]

It begs the question: Was the Green Goblin the first super-villain to have lasting knowledge of his antagonist's secret ID? (I say lasting knowledge because I'm sure there were stories where someone discovered, say Superman is Clark Kent, but by the end of the issue, either Superman fooled him, or he got amnesia, or whatever rot they tried to pass as a story back then. I'm discounting those kinds of stories.)
Considering he only appeared just over a dozen issues and spent most of that time fighting amensia and rarely knowing who Peter was and who he was at the same time, I'd doubt that he'd really count.

[David Walton]

Considering he only appeared just over a dozen issues and spent most of that time fighting amensia and rarely knowing who Peter was and who he was at the same time, I'd doubt that he'd really count.

It would count in the sense that the threat of Norman's memory returning was always in place, I suppose.

But I guess the first villain to gain longstanding knowledge of his archnemesis' identity would be the Red Skull, who discovered Captain America was really Steve Rogers during the arc that introduced the Falcon.

That's my educated guess, anyhow.

[hunter_peterson]

Okay, time to contribute something that isn't a goblin sex joke. My Menace! (So, so fun to draw. One of my favorites, actually, as of yesterday.)

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/1571/menace.jpg (http://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=menace.jpg)

[David Walton]

Okay, I can understand that. I'm saying that, as a villain, the immediate impression was "goblin knock-off" and a lot of readers dismissed Menace as a goblin knock-off from the get go. Perhaps if Menace didn't quite resemble the goblin character somehow while at the same time utilized aspects of it (sort of like Harry Osborn did in the third Spider-Man film) while still retaining the transformational aspect this goblin has, it might have been a bit better.

I'm not sure how much more visually distinctive Menace could have been without losing the association with the Goblin legacy. Like I said, I loved the design. I though it had a creepy horror vibe that the purple and greens lack.


In the case of the original Green Goblin mystery, that seemed to come out of left field because there really wasn't any indications that Norman Osborn, a character who was only properly introduced two issues before the Green Goblin's identity was revealed, was never even a viable suspect. Sure, issue #37 indicated that Osborn was a crooked businessman, but the Green Goblin? Hardly. And the whole Norman at the business club clue, IIRC, was used after the fact simply because the then unidentified character had a similar hair-style as depicted by Steve Ditko. Of course, rumor has it Ditko wanted the Green Goblin to be a nobody which, if the Jackpot reveal was anything to go by, would have been a terrible idea. Still, at least Norman Osborn ended up working out in the end.

There's no way to verify what the backstory is behind Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin. Another theory is that Ditko's beef with Lee was his humanizing portrayal of villains and leftists. And that seems to be the most substantial contention, since Ditko left "Hawk and Dove" for much the same reason--the script and the art wasn't matching his plotting, as he intended for Hawk's reasoned violence to appear in a more favorable light than Dove's pacifism.

As for Norman Osborn's working out in the end, I don't see why you couldn't say the same about Menace. She's grown in favor, not diminished, since "Character Assassination" began.


Actually, I would consider the reverse to be true. Knowing that Roger Stern had intended the Hobgoblin to be Roderick Kingsley all along, there are clues within Roger Stern's run to suggest that was where he might have been heading. When Tom Deflaco was writing afterward, he intended the Hobgoblin to be revealed as Richard Fisk and Ned Leeds as the Rose. It was the Ned Leeds reveal, while there may have been some clues to suggest it was him (although they were meant to be red herrings) that came out of left field because, at the time, he was already dead as according to Spider-Man vs. Wolverine.

Well, we can only judge the product as we have it. My point is that the fact that the Hobgoblin reveal seemed to come out of left field hasn't really diminished the Hobgoblin Saga as a whole in most fans' estimation.


That if we had seen a bit more of what she was like as a character other than being the spoiled little rich girl and perhaps been given some deeper insight into the relationship between her father and herself, her relationship with Carlie, and scenes where Lily asks Harry about the Green Goblin, etc., in ways that didn't clue us in to the idea that she was Menace, it might have made readers care a little bit more about her so that when she was revealed as Menace, it would be all the more shocking.

Well we knew from Carly's remarks that Lily was considered the slacker.

But again, Roger Stern probably could have done a better job making us care about Kingsley during his first run--I say that in the same sense that every story could have been better executed in some regard. As it is, the Hobgoblin Saga still stands the test of time so no worries.

I feel like the Menace revelation will hold up as well and I really look forward to seeing where it goes from here.


True, but it's a double-edged sword. The Green Goblin and Hobgoblin were not limited by the stories one could tell with them because they weren't created to be specifically tied-into one particular story arc.

And how is Menace limited by this story arc? The Green Goblin was created for the sole purpose of giving Spider-Man another villain of the month. In 1965 who would have honestly pegged him as Spider-Man's arch nemesis? Menace's potential doesn't suffer from any limitations more substantial than those on Hobby or GG.

Roderick Kingsley couldn't muck with Peter's personal life in the same way as Lily, since he never dated Harry. And depending on the results of the mayoral election, Menace could have as big of an impact on Peter's alter ego as Hobby did. Does that make Kingsley's Hobgoblin a lesser character? Not in the least. Nor does it mean Lily is doomed to failure.

Comic history is a winding road and there's no telling where Lily could end up in ten years.


And after Menace ends up doing this, it does seem to make the character to have served her purpose and be expendable.

Or she could continue to inhabit the Marvel Universe in a different capacity. Norman is in a very different place than he was just five years ago, so what's to stop Lily from doing the same?

Nothing.



Yes. But given that we've seen his shadow in Character Assassination resemble the Green Goblin twice now, given that he's been having emotional outbursts towards Lily even before he learned she was Menace, and given the pressure from his father, given his getting Goblin equipment (including a goblin mask as we are told in the latest issue according to Norman) it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that Harry is going to become the Green Goblin once again. Heck, I'm willing to bet that the Green Goblin Spider-Man is fighting on the cover is not Norman but Harry, and that it was Harry who attacked Air Force One as shown in the last Thunderbolts issue.

If anything Harry will try to use the Goblin persona for good. I don't see him going down the dark path permanently anytime in the near future.


Yeah, like that's a long lasting relationship. :evilsmile:

It could be. It'll be fun while it lasts, at any rate.


True, but in some ways, her story is very much like a combination of Harry's and the Hobgoblin's, in that she, like Harry, wants to please her father who she also thinks unappreciated her, and who, like the Hobgoblin, attempts to acquire power on the backs and accomplishments of others. Not to mention, as I said before, I think she's more or less a device, one of several mind you, that will eventually drive Harry into being the Green Goblin once again. Granted, there may be some use out of such a character, but in some ways, I'm seeing her more or less in the similar role that Carnage was in, in that just as Carnage was a knock-off of Venom who was an enemy of both Venom and Spider-Man, Menace is a knock-off of the Green Goblin who is an enemy of both Harry as the Green Goblin and Spider-Man.

I think Lily has a lot more potential than Carnage, and I don't see her as being nothing more than a plot device.

[Regulus B.]

Heh. I wonder if they'd make a litter? What with the screwy genetics... :biggrin:

A litter? She's not a clown car. :tongue:

[Dr. Chaos]

Doc Ock cared about Aunt May,Stunner at one stage.
I agree.

Every time Spider-Man hits him, he's just reinforcing Otto's painful school day memories where he was constantly pulverized by jocks who made alot of Elton John jokes.

If you get to know him, mental defects aside, I'm sure there are...on second thought, I would be scared shitless around him.

Atleast with Norman, I know he would just straight up kill me, you get caught by someone like Doc Ock, theres no telling what the hell he's planning.

By the way, has The Vulture ever had a thing for Aunt May?

Seems like they would have gotten around to Toomes/May sooner than they did with her and Octavius.

[RDMacQ]

By the way, has The Vulture ever had a thing for Aunt May?

No, but the Vulture did feel some guilt for accidentally causing the death of May's then fiance Nathan Lubensky. He tried to beg for her forgiveness in one storyline.

[Dr. Chaos]

No, but the Vulture did feel some guilt for accidentally causing the death of May's then fiance Nathan Lubensky. He tried to beg for her forgiveness in one storyline.
Ah.

I thought I vaguely remembered a scene between him and May from my childhood but I couldn't remember for the life of me where the hell it came from or what it was about so thanks.