Most underrated character

[jjdknight89]

Ok, so i don't understand why nobody can write a good zsasz since Grant created him. The potential for that character is almost unlimited because his origin is so shaky. In a way he is like Joker because his regard for human life is so little. I think in the Scars story arc in Detective, zsasz completely changed his personality in a believe a less interesting fashion. Kevin Smith just recently butchered the character with the dialogue, but i do like seeing a complete psycho like Zsasz. Why not more Zsasz? Im sure Morrison could put a nice twist on him.

[JumpingJupiter]

He does have much potential.

[carabas]

I don't know. Zsasz is just a typical serial killer with his own pattern and all. He is not a Batman rogue, and shouldn't be. He is an extremely limited character, and any attempts to make more of him would pretty much destroy his established character.
He's good to wheel out when the story calls for someone more monstrous than the Joker, like in that story from No Man's Land, but that's about it.

Now, for a really underrated character: Bat Woman.

[elias_A]

I remember several good Zsasz stories not written by Alan Grant:

The one in the first Knightfall trade (written by Moench/Dixon), the NML one (Devin Grayson I think), and the one with Steph as Robin (Gabrych).

[pressdarlings]

I remember several good Zsasz stories not written by Alan Grant:

The one in the first Knightfall trade (written by Moench/Dixon), the NML one (Devin Grayson I think), and the one with Steph as Robin (Gabrych).

Bingo.

Last Arkham is still my favorite.

[dancj]

I don't know. Zsasz is just a typical serial killer with his own pattern and all. He is not a Batman rogue, and shouldn't be.
I'm not sure how you define "a Batman rogue", but he completely fits my definition.

I'm a big fan of Zsasz, but yeah I think possibly only Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle can handle him well.

[davepaton]

egghead :biggrin:

nah I'd like to see more Hugo Strange and Falcone (even though he's dead)

[OverMaster]

I'm a big fan of Zsasz, but yeah I think possibly only Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle can handle him well.

Most Alan Grant created Batcharacters only work well when he's writing them. Ventriloquist only really worked when either Grant or the BTAS crew were doing the stories. And let's not even get started on Stirk and Amygdala.

[nepenthes]

^ My favorite was Rat Catcher :cool:


can you believe that Crazy Quilt was actually pretty cool in the Moench Colan issues in the early 80's? there's a issue where he's stalking Jason Todd and he's outright deranged, scary, shooting laser beams everywhere and confusing the hell out of batman

Bane, not so much over-rated but definitely underutilized.

[Keehar]

Zsasz is the Carnage of Batman. A shallow serial killer who just likes killing.

[carabas]

Pretty much, yes. And you can tell great tales about a serial killer, but he still is limited to being just a serial killer.

Although at least he isn't called Cletus, and isn't wearing a more evil version of an old costume that turned evil.

[nepenthes]

I've never read Last Arkham :frown:. or any good story with Zsasz. but it would be interesting if Batman had to chase him into some third world country, somewhere poor and crowded where he could kill at his leisure and get away with it.

[pressdarlings]

I've never read Last Arkham :frown:. or any good story with Zsasz. but it would be interesting if Batman had to chase him into some third world country, somewhere poor and crowded where he could kill at his leisure and get away with it.

You must. Takes a couple pages from Silence of the Lambs but that's to be expected since it was 'in-vogue' at the time.

[Chad]

I really liked Zsasz's origin in Batman Chronicles. In spite of a normal upbringing and lack of any traumatic incidences in his past, Zsasz simply decided one day to start killing people without ever being able to explain why.

As Last Arkham showed, he can work well as a manipulator - whether it be a high ranking official or deranged fellow inmate - and there is something interesting about Zsasz in that he doesn't possess a weakness that can be easily exploited by Batman (that is, Batman can't simply remind him that he needs to consult his coin or suggest that it would be better to commit his murders in front of an audience to buy time). I also liked how despite his intransigent attitude, he nevertheless seemed quite willing to hear people out as they plead their case before dying. He never lacked for a counter argument of course, but it was interesting that he'd debate people about whether or not he had a right to do what he was doing.

Oh, and I liked how he used to pose his victims as if they were still alive.

[thedevilsadvocate]

Red Claw is an old favorite of mine.

[jgiannantoni05]

I really liked Zsasz's origin in Batman Chronicles. In spite of a normal upbringing and lack of any traumatic incidences in his past, Zsasz simply decided one day to start killing people without ever being able to explain why.

Well, he did explain why. He said people are zombies, begging to be free of their mortal coil.

Alan Grant created so many great characters, and they were hardly ever handled properly after he left. A terrible shame.
________
Iv (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_IV)

[joint venture]

Let's just make up a GOOD story where Zasz takes down BatWoman, screen time for both, a good writer and the right choice of artist might end up delivering a classic. No Batman her, just the woman and the psycho.

Since he's a crazy maniac, an intelligent monster with a killing pattern; BatWoman would have to prove herself finally ( I so do not believe in this current incarnation, but hey, it's Zasz).

[carabas]

Let's just make up a GOOD story where Zasz takes down BatWoman, screen time for both, a good writer and the right choice of artist might end up delivering a classic. No Batman her, just the woman and the psycho.

Since he's a crazy maniac, an intelligent monster with a killing pattern; BatWoman would have to prove herself finally ( I so do not believe in this current incarnation, but hey, it's Zasz).Rucka has her and renee for 12 issues. I am calling it nown Batwoman will 'prove' herself (not that she has to after taking down Mannheim) by taking down Two-Face. It's inevitable.

[Vidocq]

Henri Ducard, After reading Blind Justice, I wanted to see a lot more of him and his relationship to Bruce Wayne, specially since Bruce always seemed uneasy to his presence. It bothers me that their are only two other stories that have him and it's practically a cameo. I would like to see him back, his character has great potential.

[thehod]

Kite-Man.








What!!???

[Romy]

Very few people agree but I kinda like mad Hatter when he is used properly, there's something incredibly creepy about him and although I can understand people not liking him I still like him if used correctly

[joint venture]

Rucka has her and renee for 12 issues. I am calling it nown Batwoman will 'prove' herself (not that she has to after taking down Mannheim) by taking down Two-Face. It's inevitable.

No doubt at all Greg Rucka could offer one of the best Batwoman-Zsaz confrontations. After FC; everywhere is a good starting point for any character. So a good writer has access to the best "bricks" to build a new story.

As for Montoya, I do not have anything positive to say about that character. Eventually I hope it will get diluted into non-existence.

[carabas]

No doubt at all Greg Rucka could offer one of the best Batwoman-Zsaz confrontations.He probably could. But a C-lister like Zsasz is probably not the best way to go here. You don't 'make' your c-list hero by putting her up against a c-list villain, but on of the big guys. And you don't prove your c-list villain to be anything special making things difficult for an unproven hero, but for someone like Green Arrow.

Anyway, my point was that Rucka likes Two-Face almost as much as he likes lesbians. And he has a long, complicated history with Montoya, who WILL be in the book. Batwoman versus Two-Face. It is inevitable.

[pressdarlings]

Henri Ducard, After reading Blind Justice, I wanted to see a lot more of him and his relationship to Bruce Wayne, specially since Bruce always seemed uneasy to his presence. It bothers me that their are only two other stories that have him and it's practically a cameo. I would like to see him back, his character has great potential.

Ducard has major potential. And Blind Justice is desperately underrated. There's never any references to it - even though Knightfall was a near rehash of this.

[Captain Jim]

The original Ventriloquist, as written by creator Alan Grant. Absolutely awesome. Too bad nobody else was able to do a decent job with him.

[Damiean Dark]

Why is anyone surprised Zzzasz is handled poorly? Batman has one of the longest rogues galleries in comics but only a few of them have EVER been really written well or have gotten a good story where they are the main villain in a 70 year career that is rediculous

Joker
Ras
twoface

Thats it really for any real deep storylines anyone can really remember.

[OverMaster]

The original Ventriloquist, as written by creator Alan Grant. Absolutely awesome. Too bad nobody else was able to do a decent job with him.

Most writers fall into the superficial pitfall of 'Dummy means Lame Character', and try to play him for mere pathetic laughs. What they fail to see is how much of a horrible, scary person Scarface is supposed to be under the wooden facade.

[Hair]

Mr. Freeze is an often forgotten, often boring character. But when he is done well (Batman: Snow is my favorite) he is a great character. I'd like to see as many writers tackle Mr. Freeze in "new and interesting" ways as have done with Two Face and The Joker in the past several years.

[jgiannantoni05]

I don't know if he's most underrated, but I always wanted to see more done with Alan Grant's original Tally Man.

I was so surprised when he made a visual cameo in Infinite Crisis, in a splash page.
________
STARCRAFT REPLAYS (http://screplays.com/replays)

[pressdarlings]

Mr. Freeze is an often forgotten, often boring character. But when he is done well (Batman: Snow is my favorite) he is a great character. I'd like to see as many writers tackle Mr. Freeze in "new and interesting" ways as have done with Two Face and The Joker in the past several years.

My favorite Freeze is the first Gotham Central arc.

[earl]

If it was me, I'd definitely put a moratorium on the big villains for some months and start using some other characters. I love the Joker and Two-face, but it is time for some new villains and to use some more obscure ones. I'd also like to see some Batman stories getting back to being a 'detective'.

Zeiss - from the Ed Brubaker Lou Moxon storyline

Black Spider - obscure 70s villains that has had some odd appearances. Marshall Rogers used the hand guns in his re-design of Deadshot and there was one story that inferred that him and Floyd Lawton were friends in prison. The Black Spider had an interesting background in that he was a former drug addict that was hunting down and killing dealers. I think this character has some potential.

Ratcatcher - as mentioned, I re-read the original story by Alan Grant and it holds up pretty well. He is a creepy character.

Boss Thorne - There hasn't been a storyline based around Thorne in years and maybe one with him getting out of prison could be interesting.

Calendar Man - I'd think he would be a natural to do a story based on the whole Mayan calendar ending. I'd also like to see a Year One story telling how he ended up in Arkham, kind of a preview if you will to his appearance in the Long Halloween.

[jgiannantoni05]

Ratcatcher is dead.

I was going to say the original Black Spider was dead. And he was killled, sarcrificed himself to kill some drug killers (great story). But, crazy enough, he escaped hell and came back to life during Gaiman's Sandman run.
________
Honda RS125R (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_RS125R)

[carabas]

But, crazy enough, he escaped hell and came back to life during Gaiman's Sandman run.I seem to have missed this every time I have rad Sandman... Where does h do this exactly?

[RubberLotus]

Most writers fall into the superficial pitfall of 'Dummy means Lame Character', and try to play him for mere pathetic laughs. What they fail to see is how much of a horrible, scary person Scarface is supposed to be under the wooden facade.

Remind me how he's scary... :confused:

Also, when was the last time a good ventriloquist story was written?

[jgiannantoni05]

I seem to have missed this every time I have rad Sandman... Where does h do this exactly?
Needham's escape from Hell isn't shown. But Sandman #23 suggests he got out when Lucifer resigned from ruling Hell and cast a bunch of people out.
________
Grape Ape Marijuana Strain (http://trichomes.org/marijuana-strains/grape-ape)

[AJM]

There's a good Batman: Black And White Zsasz story by Azzarello and Risso, which isn't very substantial but i've always liked it. Risso's art is great as always.

[carabas]

Needham's escape from Hell isn't shown. But Sandman #23 suggests he got out when Lucifer resigned from ruling Hell and cast a bunch of people out.Thats like saying that every supervillain that has ever died was resurrected. Lucifer didn't kick a bunch of people out. He kicked countles millions out. Every single soul that had ever gone to hell since there was a hell got evicted.

[nepenthes]

^ and i thought they were all bought back to hell when the angels took over. most of them anyway

[jgiannantoni05]

Apparently The DC Comics Encyclopedia (haven't read) seems to confirm Needham was freed when Lucifer left Hell.

When the angels took control in Sandman 28, most but not all were returned. Since then, Needham was in Underworld Unleashed.

new development:

http://www.dcuguide.com/who.php?name=blackspider

"However, some years later, Needham was apparently revived by Baron Agua Sin Gaaz, as he has been spotted in Zandia and is now a part of a loose grouping of assassins and mercenaries who meet to share information and sometimes to socialise on a semi-regular basis. Evidently his resurrection also altered his personality."

Problem with this dcguide explanation is that Needham was in Underworld Unleashed, long before Young Justice.
________
Manufacturing of alabama (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_Manufacturing_of_Alabama)

[Crimson Knightman]

Mr. Freeze is seriously underrated, it's a shame. Aside from his origin, I've never seen a good Mr. Freeze story The Mad Hatter is another Batman villain that has a great deal of potential, he can develop technology that could easily wreak havoc for Batman instead he's used for comedic fodder (he's nearly beaten to death by a toilet seat). The Scarecrow is kind of underrated, it's been awhile since I've seen a good story that featured his talents. The list goes on and on.

The only Batman villains I can think of that's had it pretty good is the Joker, Ra's Al Ghul and Two-Face. Everyone after that has been rarely used or misused at one time or another. I would like to see more of Wrath or Bane or Dr. Hugo Strange, if you beyond the noted three villains I pointed out, you can easily come across numerous rogues who are notably underrated. I think the Batman editors/writers needs to stop taking the easy way out by relying so heavily on the "moneymakers" and challenge themselves and the readers by reinvigorating some of the other villains. After all, Batman is supposed to have arguably the best rogue's gallery in comics, it's time for DC to back that up.

[hondobrode]

Yes, I was just going to name the Wraith as my favorite under-used villain, then Hugo Strange followed by Black Spider. Kinda dug KGBeast too.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Yes, I was just going to name the Wraith as my favorite under-used villain, then Hugo Strange followed by Black Spider. Kinda dug KGBeast too.

Question, do you mean Wrath when you say the Wraith? I only ask because I'm not familiar with any Batman villain called the Wraith, and was wondering if I was missing someone, or if it had been a typo.

[hondobrode]

Typo on my part. I meant the Wrath, who first appeared in Batman Special # 1 back in 1984.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Typo on my part. I meant the Wrath, who first appeared in Batman Special # 1 back in 1984.

Gotcha, I thought as much, but I wanted to make sure I knew what you were referring to. Thanks for clarifying for me.