Sleepwalker, Darkhawk, Thunderstrike-just what was wrong with them, anyway?

[JaredMilne]

I've a lot of people go on about how 1990s characters like Sleepwalker, Darkhawk and Thunderstrike sucked, but very rarely have I heard any concrete reasons as to just why they sucked in the first place. Whereas I, as a reader, have come to greatly appreciate a number of different aspects of these series and their storytelling engines.

I haven't read Thunderstrike, so I won't comment on that, but I personally loved the setup and execution of both Sleepwalker and Darkhawk. The former was an alien who suffered from loneliness and shame at being banished from his home, even as he was hated and feared by the humans he tried to help, even as Rick Sheridan was torn between wanting to do the right thing and being quite rightly angry about how his life has been turned inside out by Sleepwalker's presence, to the point where he lost his girlfriend, his job and even almost his life.

Darkhawk, for his part, had some very unique problems of his own. Whatever else Peter Parker had to go through, he could at least come home to a stable and loving family with Aunt May and/or Mary Jane there to support him through the hard times. Chris Powell wasn't so lucky, as his family began under serious stress from his mother's prosecution of mob boss Phillippe Bazin, and after his father's disappearance the Powell clan began to slowly unravel, reduced to living in motels and having Chris kicked out of the house, even as one of his younger brothers was caught in a car bomb and another was seemingly killed by Bazin's son.

EDIT: Ack, I realize I posted this in the Spider-Man forum by mistake. Can a mod or someone please move it to the Marvel Universe forum?

Both series had both done-in-one plotlines and extended subplots that would go on for long periods of time, with the villain being defeated in one issue while the protagonist dealt with ongoing conflicts in his personal life. They also benefited from fleshed-out antagonists, with Phillippe Bazin being much more cerebral and withdrawn than the likes of SIlvermane or the Kingpin, but no less menacing for all that; the Cabal were a collection of dirty cops who the Punisher would have been drinking buddies with if they hadn't tried to kill him; 8-Ball was a swaggering, cocky criminal with a twisted sense of humor; Cobweb was a master planner and manipulator on par with Loki; Psyko was just as crazed as Carnage and no less dangerous, and would have made a worthy adversary for Ghost Rider or Wolverine.

Are Bob Budiansky and Danny Fingeroth on the same level as Neil Gaiman or Alan Moore? Hell no. That said, I'd argue that they're not on the same level as Chuck Austen either, in the sense that while they may not have been on the level of Gaiman or Moore they still wrote very effective and enjoyable stories.

Not every work has to be as deep or profound as Moore's, and I'm still of the stance that a well-worn idea that's skilfully executed is still better than a brand-new original idea that's executed badly. When I read Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, my reaction ranged between shocked and disgusted. I got it from the library expecting a straightforward Batman story, and while Morrison completely defied my expectations, in some cases that's not always a good thing.

So, I put it out there-just what was wrong with these series to make them derided by so many fans? If you don't like them, that's fine, but I'd like to hear what was actually wrong with them that you didn't like. I personally enjoyed them very much, and it's why I hold Budiansky and Fingeroth in high esteem, even if many fans don't.

Same thing with Thunderstrike-having not read the series I've refrained from commenting on it, but feel free to discuss it here too.

[JaredMilne]

I've a lot of people go on about how 1990s characters like Sleepwalker, Darkhawk and Thunderstrike sucked, but very rarely have I heard any concrete reasons as to just why they sucked in the first place. Whereas I, as a reader, have come to greatly appreciate a number of different aspects of these series and their storytelling engines.

I haven't read Thunderstrike, so I won't comment on that, but I personally loved the setup and execution of both Sleepwalker and Darkhawk. The former was an alien who suffered from loneliness and shame at being banished from his home, even as he was hated and feared by the humans he tried to help, even as Rick Sheridan was torn between wanting to do the right thing and being quite rightly angry about how his life has been turned inside out by Sleepwalker's presence, to the point where he lost his girlfriend, his job and even almost his life.

Darkhawk, for his part, had some very unique problems of his own. Whatever else Peter Parker had to go through, he could at least come home to a stable and loving family with Aunt May and/or Mary Jane there to support him through the hard times. Chris Powell wasn't so lucky, as his family began under serious stress from his mother's prosecution of mob boss Phillippe Bazin, and after his father's disappearance the Powell clan began to slowly unravel, reduced to living in motels and having Chris kicked out of the house, even as one of his younger brothers was caught in a car bomb and another was seemingly killed by Bazin's son.

EDIT: Ack, I realize I posted this in the Spider-Man forum by mistake. Can a mod or someone please move it to the Marvel Universe forum?

Both series had both done-in-one plotlines and extended subplots that would go on for long periods of time, with the villain being defeated in one issue while the protagonist dealt with ongoing conflicts in his personal life. They also benefited from fleshed-out antagonists, with Phillippe Bazin being much more cerebral and withdrawn than the likes of SIlvermane or the Kingpin, but no less menacing for all that; the Cabal were a collection of dirty cops who the Punisher would have been drinking buddies with if they hadn't tried to kill him; 8-Ball was a swaggering, cocky criminal with a twisted sense of humor; Cobweb was a master planner and manipulator on par with Loki; Psyko was just as crazed as Carnage and no less dangerous, and would have made a worthy adversary for Ghost Rider or Wolverine.

Are Bob Budiansky and Danny Fingeroth on the same level as Neil Gaiman or Alan Moore? Hell no. That said, I'd argue that they're not on the same level as Chuck Austen either, in the sense that while they may not have been on the level of Gaiman or Moore they still wrote very effective and enjoyable stories.

Not every work has to be as deep or profound as Moore's, and I'm still of the stance that a well-worn idea that's skilfully executed is still better than a brand-new original idea that's executed badly. When I read Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, my reaction ranged between shocked and disgusted. I got it from the library expecting a straightforward Batman story, and while Morrison completely defied my expectations, in some cases that's not always a good thing.

So, I put it out there-just what was wrong with these series to make them derided by so many fans? If you don't like them, that's fine, but I'd like to hear what was actually wrong with them that you didn't like. I personally enjoyed them very much, and it's why I hold Budiansky and Fingeroth in high esteem, even if many fans don't.

Same thing with Thunderstrike-having not read the series I've refrained from commenting on it, but feel free to discuss it here too.

[Patrick Hultquist]

I think you're on the wrong board. You probably should post this in the Marvel Universe board.

[JaredMilne]

I know, and I just re-posted it over there. Can a mod please delete this thread?

[artiepants]

while a lot of the 90s characters sucked, I though in general these 3 were pretty popular.

Thunderstrike just suffered from a "line refocusing on the icons" type initiative and, like many b/c level characters/concepts Darkhawk and Sleepwalker needed a little downtime until someone comes along with the right pitch to make them awesome again...

[stillanerd]

I actually, I had a geeky fondness for Darkhawk. I realize that this was Marvel's attempt back in the 90s to bring in a modern teenage superhero on the level of Spider-Man, but there certainly were things that were quite appealing. Sure he was one of those "armored" heroes, but it some ways it wasn't excessive (although in retrospect similar to the Guyver) and I liked the idea that, in order to heal himself, Chris had to switch back to his human form first and then back into Darkhawk--which considering how having a rapid healing factor like Wolverine was becoming the in thing with more and more heroes was kind of refreshing. Although, his rogue's gallery was something that really need work, and it seemed pretty hard to except the idea that Darkhawk could so easily go into Batman mode. Then again, Terry McGuinness from Batman Beyond was actually quite similar to Chris Powell in many ways.

Sleepwalker I never really got into, but the idea behind him was quite unique and high concept. Basically, he shows up whenever his host fell asleep. Shame that he seemed a bit too much like the Martain Manhunter, though.

And Eric Masterson as Thor was actually well done, in that while Donald Blake was really just Thor in a human form, here it was a mortal essentially given the power of a god, long before Jim Carrey got a similar treatment in Bruce Almighty. In some ways, Eric was essentially a more grown-up version of Peter Parker in that the theme "with great power comes great responsibility" was pretty much the theme of Eric's tenure as Thor. It's when Eric became Thunderstrike that it seemed a bit much, because then he was just part of an all too common trend at the time (and in some ways continues even now) in which the original hero is replaced by a cooler version and then is given his own superhero identity when the original comes back. And anytime that happens, the copy cat always gets overshadowed by the original and gets all but lost in obscurity, with very few exceptions.

[StoneGold]

Thunderstrike was a Thor spinoff, Sleepwalker was a good idea with terrible execution (go look up any of his villains), and Darkhawk started off good, but ran out of ideas around the same time (coincidentally?) that Mike Manley left the book on art. Basically, you could tell they had never really thought through Darkhawk's origins when they created the character, and when they finally revealed them, they were terrible.

[jdwrocks]

Thunderstrike was a Thor spinoff, Sleepwalker was a good idea with terrible execution (go look up any of his villains), and Darkhawk started off good, but ran out of ideas around the same time (coincidentally?) that Mike Manley left the book on art. Basically, you could tell they had never really thought through Darkhawk's origins when they created the character, and when they finally revealed them, they were terrible.
Just look at the War of Kings Darkhawk special. Origin reboot. Was there even a definitive origin with Chris & the Darkhawk persona?

[StoneGold]

Just look at the War of Kings Darkhawk special. Origin reboot. Was there even a definitive origin with Chris & the Darkhawk persona?

Yeah, but it didn't come until the art got bad and everyone stopped reading. Some stupid crap with space androids. Seriously, it sucked. Didn't account for all the mythology they created, even, like why everyone freaked out like Dr. Doom took off his mask when DH took off his. I mean, they created a reason, it just sucked.


That said, the first year or two of the book was good comics.

[jdwrocks]

That said, the first year or two of the book was good comics.
Agreed. It was good fun. But Darkhawk is more suited to be a backup secondary character these days.

[stillanerd]

Just look at the War of Kings Darkhawk special. Origin reboot. Was there even a definitive origin with Chris & the Darkhawk persona?

I think issue #25 might have. Basically, the amulet Chris had found allowed him to swap his body with that of an alien android stored on a spaceship in another dimension called Null Space, and that it was one of several originally created for an outer space crime lord. It's no coincidence that it was this convoluted backstory behind the Darkhawk armor that the comic really began to suffer over time. Overly complex origin stories are usually the kiss of death for a comic book character.

[StoneGold]

And you want to know why Thunderstrike failed? It was DeFalco writing Xtreme Thor, with beard, leather jacket, pony tail and earring. And when the sales started to dip, he got more Xtreme. Started going all dark.


But the book was crap from the minute they gave him his own Venom.


Not that Darkhawk didn't have his own Venom, but Portal was kind of cool, in that he may have been a not so virtuous version of Darkhawk, but he was basically just looking out for #1.

Well, and Evilhawk, but he didn't come around until later in the book's run, after it started to suck.

And Sleepwalker basically had a really good first issue with a lot of promise, and then went right to crap from there.

[JaredMilne]

And Sleepwalker basically had a really good first issue with a lot of promise, and then went right to crap from there.

What was so crappy about the rest of it? Was it just the villains, or something else?

[stillanerd]

And you want to know why Thunderstrike failed? It was DeFalco writing Xtreme Thor, with beard, leather jacket, pony tail and earring. And when the sales started to dip, he got more Xtreme. Started going all dark.


But the book was crap from the minute they gave him his own Venom.

I assume you mean Bloodaxe, right? Where they basically tried to cross the Red Skull and Ghost Rider and just came up with Fail.

http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/images/thumb/1/16/Bloodaxe.jpg/440px-Bloodaxe.jpg

And Sleepwalker basically had a really good first issue with a lot of promise, and then went right to crap from there.

The only issue I ever read of Sleepwalker was when he got addicted to some color spectrum given off by some experimental diamond, thus becoming a "rainbow junkie" and then we got the debut of Spectra: at the end.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/6/6b/Spectra_01.JPG

That's when I knew this comic was short lived.

[Tikal]

i just recently re read the darkhawk series so it's funny that you bring this up now
Darkhawk was a good idea (With awesome awesome covers at least for that time).. it just seemed like they got the go head to make the book probably had a bout a year's worth of ideas and then just were like "oh shit what do we do now".
after the 25th issue i'd say every issue felt like they were just kind of making things up on the fly.

i'd almost say that was the problem with all comics during that time... none of the stories seemed to be really well thought out.
but while spiderman, xmen, avengers had years of fan base to weather them through the poor planning... these guys simply didn't and new fans weren't going to put up with it

[marshal99]

I liked thunderstrike , not the best book around. It can be a bit corny and cheesy but it was kind of fun. I really like what they did with crusher creel and his relationship with thunderstrike , creel wasn't written or treated like a one note villain like in other books.
After the thunderstrike comic ended , they had a aftermath issue in thor where they showed Creel paying his respect to Eric's grave. It was a very nice touch.

[James Conniff]

Just look at the War of Kings Darkhawk special. Origin reboot. Was there even a definitive origin with Chris & the Darkhawk persona?

I liked the that first issue, I was never much of a Darkhawk person but I gave it a read at work this past weekend. Gave us just enough time in this guys life to care about his troubles and his family, give us an update on his recent events, and his powers. And then made me wonder what is going to happen next issue.

[Duy]

I think a Sleepwalker series focusing on the Mindscape would look great in a comic book. I don't know how well it'd sell, though.

[Raker616]

I don't know about the other 2 but Darkhawk was a good character that had his character only scratched by the writers during his run. I'm very happy to see him get another shot with War Of Kings coming up because he's the kind of character that can have a nice fanbase if used to his true potential.

[HulkSmash666]

I liked tht they brought Sleepwalker back during the Civil War/Secret Invasion tie-ins to Ms Marvel.
I've always like the character, and wanted to see more of him in the regular MU, but he just needs to be handled right.

I'd love to his alien race show up in the cosmic stories, with perhaps even a mini-series with him interacting with someone like Nova or the Guardians of the Galaxy. Even an appearance in the Darkhawk series that could spin out of WOK.

He's got a wicked power-set, and his alien heritage could prove interesting in the broader MU. Plus more of the dreamscape dimension would be cool too.


As for Darkhawk? Wasn't it that when Chris uses the amulet, his body is transferred to another dimension, ala Sleepwalker, whenever he used the amulet, and his mind was transferred into the android armour of Darkhawk?

Seems to me that he simply transforms into Darkhawk now, with the armour covering his body ala Iron Man when activating the amulet.

Can anyone clear this up for me?

[Westgarth J]

Seems to me that he simply transforms into Darkhawk now, with the armour covering his body ala Iron Man when activating the amulet.

Can anyone clear this up for me?

Some stuff happened between his series ending and his reappearance in Runaways. As yet we don't know what that may have been, but I think we'll either find out during the WOK mini, or we're not going to find out.

Most likely, I think BKV/Cebulski just took the character at face value and ran with that for the Runaways vs 1990s teen heroes arc True Believers, and needed to tack on some additional/contradictory character traits to explain why the older heroes were a joke compared to the Runaways, leaving later writers with the job of retconning in reasons for the changes. We all know the 1990s Darkhawk (and 1990s Turbo, Ricochet and Lightspeed) would have stomped the Runaways' asses through a wall on page 2 of their first meeting, but that would've made for a dull pages 3-22 - unless your idea of a fun comic is a bunch of kids sitting around a foster home saying "Damn, but my ass really hurts right now. Also, that guy with half a face turned out to be an imposter and we're all living in a time paradox now."
Actually, if BKV had done it, that might have been fun - but you get the idea.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

After the thunderstrike comic ended , they had a aftermath issue in thor where they showed Creel paying his respect to Eric's grave. It was a very nice touch.
Which Thor was that?

I thought Sleepwalker was cheesy but enjoyable.
Darkhawk really reminded me of another Peter Parker.
Thunderstrike was just cool. The whole storyline from Thor 432 through 460 was wonderful I thought. It had a bit of an old school comic vibe to it. It was Eric Masterson's tale of learning the ropes. And Thunderstrike was a cool continuation of it. However, I never expected them to kill off Masterson. That was just plain stupid.

IMO Sleepwalker, Darkhawk and Thunderstrike were far better characters than most other Marvel characters introduced in the 90s.

[HulkSmash666]

Not to mention Eric Masterson Thor had the best Thor vs Gladiator fight in existence. One of the coolest one on one fights of the 90's IMO.

[Sean Walsh]

.....it's interesting that these 3 characters were created and mainly written by editors - Danny Fingeroth (Darkhawk), Bob Budiansky (Sleepwalker) and Tom DeFalco (Thunderstrike).

Even more interesting was that the most "mainstream" of them - Thunderstrike, who was created and featured in THOR before getting his own series - had the shortest ongoing series run of these 3 (only 25 issues). Darkhawk hit 50 issues and then ended, while Sleepwalker was quietly cancelled at 31 or 33.

[lou-bert vs. q-bert]

I will say what was wrong with Thunderstrike. Eric Masterson was much cooler when he was Thor.

[spiderman_rj]

i have a soft spot for darkhawk , i think he is on MUA 2

[MrPalen]

I loved Sleepwalker. The issue mentioned earlier about Sleepwalker getting addicted to Spectra's light was awesome. It was a unique title and a unique character.

I thought Darkhawk was cool at the time though I never read his series. Ditto Masterson-Thor. My exposure to him consisted mainly of his appearances in the Infinity Trilogy but I thought he was neat. I still remember the scene in Infinity Gauntlet where he's suffocating because he's been separated from his hammer.

[Jadeskies]

I lost interest in sleepwalker when he went from creepy pencil thin guy in a hood to Ahhhhnold Schwartzenegger impersonator.

His villains were campy, but they were original and interesting, for a new character he had a colorful rogues gallery.

[Nightstar1441]

Thunderstrike had one of the better endings in comics for a character than ran it's course.

It was a nice way to tie up the series.

Darkhawk lacked overall direction - I think when Marvel realized the series was gonna last longer than 25 issues - they realized they never set the necessarry groundwork for the origin and all the questions they raised so they fell back on the old stand-by plot device - aliens

Sleepwalker could have been interesting with connections to Nightmare but 8-Ball? Spectra? He really lacked a good villian and heroes are defined by their villians.

[Tikal]

I liked tht they brought Sleepwalker back during the Civil War/Secret Invasion tie-ins to Ms Marvel.
I've always like the character, and wanted to see more of him in the regular MU, but he just needs to be handled right.

I'd love to his alien race show up in the cosmic stories, with perhaps even a mini-series with him interacting with someone like Nova or the Guardians of the Galaxy. Even an appearance in the Darkhawk series that could spin out of WOK.

He's got a wicked power-set, and his alien heritage could prove interesting in the broader MU. Plus more of the dreamscape dimension would be cool too.


As for Darkhawk? Wasn't it that when Chris uses the amulet, his body is transferred to another dimension, ala Sleepwalker, whenever he used the amulet, and his mind was transferred into the android armour of Darkhawk?

Seems to me that he simply transforms into Darkhawk now, with the armour covering his body ala Iron Man when activating the amulet.

Can anyone clear this up for me?

well this is where darkhawk started to get weird
you have to remeber this is back in the 90's where it was essential you kept your secret idenity from everyone you know and love including your family.
so anyhow darkhawk went on a space quest to collect the 5 remaining (dark stones?)
but chris was conflicted with leaving his family and potentially not being there when they needed him.
So the mindship (who was working with him to collect those stones) said there was a way to do both. They basically cloned his mind and one stayed in the darkhawk body who did the adventures and the other stayed at home not hearing from darkhawk for long periods of time.
Why they couldn't just have had darkhawk get teleported where he needed to be by mindship i dont know... but anyhow... as the story went on... they merged the darkhawk chris and the regular chris so now the darkhawk form was within him.
Which meant no instant healing, and meant if the darkhawk body dies so does he which wasn't always the case before(in fact his whole dark hawk body was destroyed and he was just transported into his regular body on the ship).

It was kind of weird cause they did a major upgrade on the suit
but for some reason when they brought darkhawk back they made it the old suit with no explanation

[MrPalen]

I lost interest in sleepwalker when he went from creepy pencil thin guy in a hood to Ahhhhnold Schwartzenegger impersonator.

That was weird and unfortunate.

[marshal99]

Which Thor was that?

I thought Sleepwalker was cheesy but enjoyable.
Darkhawk really reminded me of another Peter Parker.
Thunderstrike was just cool. The whole storyline from Thor 432 through 460 was wonderful I thought. It had a bit of an old school comic vibe to it. It was Eric Masterson's tale of learning the ropes. And Thunderstrike was a cool continuation of it. However, I never expected them to kill off Masterson. That was just plain stupid.

IMO Sleepwalker, Darkhawk and Thunderstrike were far better characters than most other Marvel characters introduced in the 90s.

Which thor was that ? How many thors were there ?! :biggrin:

If you are asking about the issue number , it's thor 490. Basically about thor getting all upset and angry over Eric's death and spotting Creel at eric's grave , started swinging unprovoked.

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/87387731330.490.gif

[Beadle]

You want to know what the problem with Sleepwalker, Darkhawk and Thunderstrike was?

The letter "k".

Look at the accepted major superheroes in both Marvel & DC.

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Green Arrow, Nightwing, Aquaman, Robin, Supergirl - No "k"s.

Captain America, Spider-Man, Thor, Iron Man, Thing, Mr Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Namor, Doctor Strange, Silver Surfer, Wolverine, Cyclops, Professor X, Daredevil, Punisher etc, etc.... No "k"s.

The only high profile heroes with a k in their names are:

Hulk - An outcast, avoided by most.
Black Panther - Kept separate from most of the rest of the Marvel Universe by geography.
Moon Knight - Mad as a box of cats.
Black Canary - Still wearing fishnets and not in control of the team she leads. Plus often seen as Ollie's sidekick (another k word).
Hawkman - Case closed. We all know Hawkman sucks (again, another k word).

If you have a k in your name you will not be accepted as mainstream. It's a conspiracy.

So I'm sorry if your name is Kevin. You can't be a major superhero.

[darkhawk76]

I never really cared for darkhawk :tongue:

but seriously to quote Sven-Göran Eriksson :

"first half good, second half not so good" (sorry very UK-centric that joke)

I liked the first 25 issues and could see that they were trying to ape Spider-Man (60's) or Nova (70's), but for some reason it went downhill for #26-50.

I'd like to see him back, maybe in a mini or part of team book. I doubt he can ever sustain a series again, especially after his convoluted origin

[gorthon616]

I've a lot of people go on about how 1990s characters like Sleepwalker, Darkhawk and Thunderstrike sucked, but very rarely have I heard any concrete reasons as to just why they sucked in the first place. Whereas I, as a reader, have come to greatly appreciate a number of different aspects of these series and their storytelling engines.

I haven't read Thunderstrike, so I won't comment on that, but I personally loved the setup and execution of both Sleepwalker and Darkhawk. The former was an alien who suffered from loneliness and shame at being banished from his home, even as he was hated and feared by the humans he tried to help, even as Rick Sheridan was torn between wanting to do the right thing and being quite rightly angry about how his life has been turned inside out by Sleepwalker's presence, to the point where he lost his girlfriend, his job and even almost his life.

Darkhawk, for his part, had some very unique problems of his own. Whatever else Peter Parker had to go through, he could at least come home to a stable and loving family with Aunt May and/or Mary Jane there to support him through the hard times. Chris Powell wasn't so lucky, as his family began under serious stress from his mother's prosecution of mob boss Phillippe Bazin, and after his father's disappearance the Powell clan began to slowly unravel, reduced to living in motels and having Chris kicked out of the house, even as one of his younger brothers was caught in a car bomb and another was seemingly killed by Bazin's son.

EDIT: Ack, I realize I posted this in the Spider-Man forum by mistake. Can a mod or someone please move it to the Marvel Universe forum?

Both series had both done-in-one plotlines and extended subplots that would go on for long periods of time, with the villain being defeated in one issue while the protagonist dealt with ongoing conflicts in his personal life. They also benefited from fleshed-out antagonists, with Phillippe Bazin being much more cerebral and withdrawn than the likes of SIlvermane or the Kingpin, but no less menacing for all that; the Cabal were a collection of dirty cops who the Punisher would have been drinking buddies with if they hadn't tried to kill him; 8-Ball was a swaggering, cocky criminal with a twisted sense of humor; Cobweb was a master planner and manipulator on par with Loki; Psyko was just as crazed as Carnage and no less dangerous, and would have made a worthy adversary for Ghost Rider or Wolverine.

Are Bob Budiansky and Danny Fingeroth on the same level as Neil Gaiman or Alan Moore? Hell no. That said, I'd argue that they're not on the same level as Chuck Austen either, in the sense that while they may not have been on the level of Gaiman or Moore they still wrote very effective and enjoyable stories.

Not every work has to be as deep or profound as Moore's, and I'm still of the stance that a well-worn idea that's skilfully executed is still better than a brand-new original idea that's executed badly. When I read Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, my reaction ranged between shocked and disgusted. I got it from the library expecting a straightforward Batman story, and while Morrison completely defied my expectations, in some cases that's not always a good thing.

So, I put it out there-just what was wrong with these series to make them derided by so many fans? If you don't like them, that's fine, but I'd like to hear what was actually wrong with them that you didn't like. I personally enjoyed them very much, and it's why I hold Budiansky and Fingeroth in high esteem, even if many fans don't.

Same thing with Thunderstrike-having not read the series I've refrained from commenting on it, but feel free to discuss it here too.

They don't have the letter "X" in their title.

They are not metaphors for modern politics (though that's likely falling away from being an "in" topic).

And they are not "street level" or otherwise have that sort of "Independent Film Festival" feel as far as character goes.

For the record, I thought the Sleepwalker premise was really cool.

[G. Wayne]

I lost interest in sleepwalker when he went from creepy pencil thin guy in a hood to Ahhhhnold Schwartzenegger impersonator.
....

He certainly had a unique look at first, real thin with uneven legwarmer thingies and the short fitted cape. Was there a storyline reason or artist change that bulked him up?

[MrPalen]

He certainly had a unique look at first, real thin with uneven legwarmer thingies and the short fitted cape. Was there a storyline reason or artist change that bulked him up?

Yeah artist changed from Rick Leonardi to Bret Blevins. No story reason that I can recall, though somebody might have made one up in the letters page to try and explain it.

[MrPalen]

Also for whoever said Sleepwalker didn't have an archenemy, he did: Cobweb.

[cosmoboy]

I really only read Thunderstrike, I liked it fine it got a little 90's goofy but hell it was the 90's.

[JaredMilne]

Yeah artist changed from Rick Leonardi to Bret Blevins. No story reason that I can recall, though somebody might have made one up in the letters page to try and explain it.

Actually, it was Bret Blevins to Kelly Krantz. Leonardi was a guest penciller(and not a very good one) in issue #4, but Blevins drew most of the rest of the first 17 issues, until he was replaced by Krantz, at which point the art promptly took a nosedive in quality. Multiple inkers worked on the book, and while Krantz could sometimes draw cool monsters, his humans were butt-ugly.

And the letters page was full of fans wondering about Sleepwalker's sudden muscle growth. The editors kept saying there really was a reason, but we never actually found out what it was.

[Chris N]

The Sleepwalker premise is cool. It was one of many new characters in a time when most new characters sucked, when gimmicks were the thing instead of stories, and nobody cared much about writing.

What Sleepwalker lacks is a solid foundation in good stories to show for itself. Spider-Man is a cool concept whose first 33 or so issues are absolutely brilliant. Ditto Dr. Strange or Fantastic Four. Other characters from that era had later writers flesh out their potential (see Miller's Daredevil, Claremont's X-Men or Jenkins' Inumans).

Sleepwalker has nothing really to point to to a skeptic to say, look at these awesome stories. Because, as much as I enjoyed it, the premise of Sleepwalker was better than its execution.

And now nobody (except Robert Kirkman) cares to try to write the character because he's perceived as a joke character like everybody else.


Darkhawk has similar problems, though Sleepwalker is the more original concept. Darkhawk is much more reminiscient of series like Nova and ultimately was trying to be a new version of Spider-Man. But they've done good things with Nova lately, (I found the old Nova series mostly unreadable though people older than me will be offended by that statement) so maybe somebody could come along and tell some good Darkhawk stories. We'll see.

[FrogMan]

All three of these books ROCKED!!!

'nuff said.

[MrPalen]

Actually, it was Bret Blevins to Kelly Krantz. Leonardi was a guest penciller(and not a very good one) in issue #4, but Blevins drew most of the rest of the first 17 issues, until he was replaced by Krantz, at which point the art promptly took a nosedive in quality. Multiple inkers worked on the book, and while Krantz could sometimes draw cool monsters, his humans were butt-ugly.

Right, my mistake. Thanks for that. So Sleepy beefed up during Blevins's run - I think he was muscly by issue 6 in the Spider-Man team-up.

[drwho]

SleepWalker started sucking around issue 25 when the whole invasion of his people that werent his people went on. I still dont quite understand what the point of that was. That storyline really killed the book. SleepWalker had some interesting hokey villains like 8 ball lullabye and the chain gang.

Found a CBr tribute to sleepwalker

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2007/05/15/365-reasons-to-love-comics-135/

[Push You Down]

Sleepwalker did suffer from some atrociously jilarious villains. They all seemed like the ones you'd see on the Batman 60s tv show.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I haven't read much of the other two, but Sleepwalker I dug. I had two issues for years, but finally bought all 34 and I loved them. The character had a lot of promise and could've been something great. I hope that one of the new writers out there pick him up and run with him, make him good like he was shown to be in Ms. Marvel.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

Which thor was that ? How many thors were there ?! :biggrin:

If you are asking about the issue number , it's thor 490. Basically about thor getting all upset and angry over Eric's death and spotting Creel at eric's grave , started swinging unprovoked.

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/87387731330.490.gif
I see I was not clear with what I meant but you figured it out anyhow. Thanks for the tip. The next time I order a bunch of comics I will include Thor 490.

[drwho]

dont forget to check out blackwulf it was a classic in the making

http://puderbaugh.com/sales/xmen/blackwulf.jpg

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I got most of those from a discount bin.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

And you want to know why Thunderstrike failed? It was DeFalco writing Xtreme Thor, with beard, leather jacket, pony tail and earring. And when the sales started to dip, he got more Xtreme. Started going all dark.


But the book was crap from the minute they gave him his own Venom.



Correct. The look was supposed to be "cool", but turned out lame.......Although I disagree with "when" it became crap. I didn't like it from the get-go. I think I tried out the first two issues or so, and knew it wasn't worth a bother.

Not to mention Eric Masterson Thor had the best Thor vs Gladiator fight in existence. One of the coolest one on one fights of the 90's IMO.

I found it disappointing, in that it should've been the almighty Thor battling Gladiator, not an inexperienced replacement.

I felt the same way about Masterson's battle with Ronan The Accuser.