CBR: Greg Rucka Talks "Detective Comics"

[CBR News]

Greg Rucka is teaming with all-star artist J.H. Williams III on “Detective Comics�
once the long-running series returns from its “Battle for the Cowl�-imposed hiatus
in June. And the main character is Kate Kane, the Batwoman.


Full article here (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=19983).

[Captain Jim]

Please reply here only to the interview referenced in this thread.

To make other comments related to the upcoming Batwoman series, please post here (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=256004)

[Cayman]

A good, if slightly defensive-sounding, interview.

It will be nice to finally meet the character of Batwoman since she has been kind of blank in her appearances so far.

[Captain Jim]

Possibly a little defensive in places, but I did not find the following defensive. To the contrary, it made me feel that Rucka was in touch with where fans are coming from.

People should be skeptical of the character. They absolutely should. They’ve barely seen her. And if I were a fan, I’d be going, “Great, we’ve got a redhead wearing a Bat suit. And it’s not Barbara Gordon. And she’s gay. This is all I’ve heard about her.” As a fan, I’d be like, “That’s not much of a character.” And they’d be right. That’s not a whole lot to go on.

[kaelikins]

After reading the downward spiral that was the "other" Batwoman thread earlier today, this interview couldn't be more appropriately timed. I'm really looking forward to this run. :)

[the goddamn batman]

Possibly a little defensive in places, but I did not find the following defensive. To the contrary, it made me feel that Rucka was in touch with where fans are coming from.

I completely agree.

[CMBMOOL]

I must admit Rucka did sound like he was a bit defensive about it, but at least he mentioned Betty Kane, and here's hoping that she has a part in all of this. :tongue:

[the goddamn batman]

Maybe he lurks here.

[Mundungus]

I'm excited for this book and I think Rucka and Williams III are creating a beautiful package (with the rest of their crew involved). I'm interested to know what makes this new Batwoman stand out from the legion of other Batman-inspired characters. I think Rucka is on the offensive here. He's letting us know that he's got what it takes to have Kate Kane stand on her own two feet.

[Calvin Government]

After seeing those preview pages and now reading this interview, I'm sold on the first issue pretty absolutely, hopefully for the full ride. I've been curious about what would be done to flesh the character out.

Interested that DC gave him so many issues with this one.

[Den]

Possibly a little defensive in places, but I did not find the following defensive. To the contrary, it made me feel that Rucka was in touch with where fans are coming from.

I have to agree. This interview pretty much hit the nail on the head with the concerns I had as a reader, and by doing so made me feel far more confident in giving it a shot. If all there is to make a character stand out is his/her sexuality, then you don't really have a character at all, and I was worried about that. Rucka has shot that concern down promptly with this interview by addressing it directly, and I will definitely be giving this a chance.

Besides, the preview art is just too freaking amazing for words.

[nepenthes]

I don't think it sounded defensive at all, he was just stating the obvious and letting us know that he's gonna bring what we want

And for people who are desperate to figure out where it is in the timeline, they really need to relax. They’re not going to find an answer any time soon.

ha ha! i like this bit


You’ve got to remember, Wonder Womanhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=19983#) got a haircut and that became news.

interesting to remember in wake of the RIP "fiasco"

[sabongero]

Alright ! Finally, Greg Rucka's back to writing a series.

[coy_dog0]

A great writer and a great artist! This goes straight into my buy pile.

And THANK YOU to DC for not canceling Detective. I have heard some ugly rumours of such, and I'm glad they're not true.

[nepenthes]

^ Detective is being canceled. For three months :wink:

ends after next issue and back in June

[Ben Reilly#6]

Great interview. Rucka's really selling the book for me. It's nice to see that he's aware of how much doubt there is about the character's place in the Bat-books and is willing to say: "hey, I know you don't really have a good reason to like the character, but I hope I can make you all see what I see in her". Also great to see him mention the role the New York Times played in screwing her first debut.

I have to admit I'm a little dissapointed Bette Kane's going to show up. I'm hoping she won't play too big a role in this, but I'm willing to wait and see what happens.

So...yeah. I'm sold. I'm still aprehensive, but I'm sold.

[Alexx1]

I don't think anyone would argue Rucka a great writer and this titles got a great artist.

I dunno though. Something felt missing from that interview, like what's it going to be about. Saying Kate Kane isn't enough. That's the obvious. I dunno if people on the fence about picking it up will with that interview and people who have told themselves they weren't going to pick it up have changed their minds. I guess Rucka answered the questions giving to him. None of them really delved into what fans can expect. I certainly haven't walked away from reading this interveiw excited about Tec where I have from some other creator interviews about books.

[Red_Knight]

Rucka's enthusiasm is quite contagious, I must say. I'd pretty much decided to drop 'Tec until the inevitable return of Batman, but now I think I'll check out the opening arc and hold off until then...

[Duy]

I don't think anyone would argue Rucka a great writer and this titles got a great artist.

I dunno though. Something felt missing from that interview, like what's it going to be about. Saying Kate Kane isn't enough. That's the obvious. I dunno if people on the fence about picking it up will with that interview and people who have told themselves they weren't going to pick it up have changed their minds. I guess Rucka answered the questions giving to him. None of them really delved into what fans can expect. I certainly haven't walked away from reading this interveiw excited about Tec where I have from some other creator interviews about books.
I see where you're coming from, but honestly, for me, the creators sell this book.

Those preview pages are beautiful.

[pariah-1972]

I'm really really excited for this ! i'm also glad that Rucka was honest and understanding of fan's skepticism so far.

One thing i'm really really wondering is why it's taken so long for this to finally come out? They debuted a new character in a big crossover event and she got lots of media attention a smart publisher would have gotten a creative team on the go stat.

I don't know maybe Rucka has been busy with other things?

Also i love J.H Williams ! he is so freakin' innovative.

[Alexx1]

I see where you're coming from, but honestly, for me, the creators sell this book.

Those preview pages are beautiful.

Your right, and that's exactly why I'll check out the first arc at least because of Rucka and Williams, not the character.

[Deathstroke]

I'm a huge fan of Greg Rucka.

I haven't read the interview yet.

I am looking forward to it.

I'm just hoping that if I do indeed pick up the title that it does end up being worth the time and money.

Otherwise, I'm going to be longing for Greg Rucka to go back to working on his non DC material like Queen & Country and the long promised but never realized continuation of Felon.

[CaptainCanada]

One thing i'm really really wondering is why it's taken so long for this to finally come out? They debuted a new character in a big crossover event and she got lots of media attention a smart publisher would have gotten a creative team on the go stat.

I don't know maybe Rucka has been busy with other things?
DC immediately started hemming and hawing about whether or not they actually wanted to publish a series starring a member of the Bat-family who was Teh Gay.

Rucka's rarely disappointed, so I'll definitely be there for this.

[GDB]

I dunno though. Something felt missing from that interview, like what's it going to be about.

It doesn't come out until June. I'm sure we'll find out what it's about by April.

[Firebaton]

I have to say the only Batman comic I ever collected was the Hush run with Jim Lee. That is about to change because I love Greg Rucka but also he said the two magic words: Bette Kane. I wonder if this run is the reason she has not been seen in person since IC7.
So SOLD.. will be buying it.

Thom

[Seraku]

And for people who are desperate to figure out where it is in the timeline, they really need to relax. They’re not going to find an answer any time soon. I laugh in the faces of the people Rucka is referring to :biggrin:

Yes, she’s a lesbian. She’s also a redhead. It is an element of her character. It is not her character. If people are going to have problems with it, that’s their issue. That’s certainly not mine. My job is to write the best book I can about a character that I think is exceptionally cool, that J.H. Williams thinks is exceptionally cool, that DC Comics thinks is exceptionally cool and worthy of being the lead player in “Detective Comics.” And frankly, she should be judged on her merits. bravo

[carabas]

I have to say the only Batman comic I ever collected was the Hush run with Jim Lee. That is about to change because I love Greg Rucka but also he said the two magic words: Bette Kane.That's ironic since Hush dynamited over two years worth of Batamn character development by Rucka and Brubaker...

[Liberty Belle Fan]

I'm not missing this for anything. The concept is brilliant, and it fits perfectly in Detective Comics. I'd be fine with Batwoman staying in this book for a long time.

[pariah-1972]

DC immediately started hemming and hawing about whether or not they actually wanted to publish a series starring a member of the Bat-family who was Teh Gay.

Rucka's rarely disappointed, so I'll definitely be there for this.Ya know that really doesn't make much sense i mean shes not the only gay/lesbian person in Dc comics and it's not like they are making Batman or any other of his Partners gay or lesbian.

[Duy]

Ya know that really doesn't make much sense i mean shes not the only gay/lesbian person in Dc comics and it's not like they are making Batman or any other of his Partners gay or lesbian.
Actually, it makes a lot of sense.

No one in the media would care if the Huntress were gay. She's the Huntress. Whee. Who the hell's the Huntress? Even when they did the Bat-embargo on the JLU a few years ago, they didn't ban the Huntress. No one cares if Renee Montoya is gay, because the hell's Renee Montoya.

Now Batwoman. Who the hell's Batwoman? We don't know, but she's got a Bat in her name - easy media target.

By the very virtue of her name, she's an even easier media target than Nightwing.

[Mia]

Yes, she’s a lesbian. She’s also a redhead. It is an element of her character. It is not her character. If people are going to have problems with it, that’s their issue. That’s certainly not mine. My job is to write the best book I can about a character that I think is exceptionally cool, that J.H. Williams thinks is exceptionally cool, that DC Comics thinks is exceptionally cool and worthy of being the lead player in “Detective Comics.” And frankly, she should be judged on her merits.


Not much of a sales pitch is it? I must say that I find that kind of response a real turn off and it does not make me want to pick up the book. Whenever I see a creator get that uptight, about valid criticism/concerns. It's usually a sign to me that the book will suck or it won't get any better. The best creators I've seen in comics book are the ones who listen or are at least responsive to fan feedback.


I still maintain that if they want to showcase Batwoman. She should get her own series or mini series like Orpheus and Huntress did. 'Tec should not be hijacked in order to showcase some authors pet character, when there are far more deserving and appropriate characters who should be heading up this book in Batman's abscence. Sorry but I'm sitting this out.

[HaroldAllnut]

Maybe he lurks here.

That is an amusing concept.

I'd be fine with Batwoman staying in this book for a long time.

As would I.

[Captain Jim]

I still maintain that if they want to showcase Batwoman. She should get her own series or mini series like Orpheus and Huntress did. 'Tec should not be hijacked in order to showcase some authors pet character.

DC's plan for both Superman and Batman this year, it seems, is to remove the lead character and turn the regular titles over to others. You can argue about whether this is a good idea or not, but it's not like Detective is being singled out in this regard. Superman is not going to be in either Action or Superman. The former will star a new Nightwing & Flamebird and the latter will star Mon-el & the Guardian--none of whom would be regarded as "first-stringers." Say what you will about Batwoman in Detective; at least they're consistent.

[TROUBLEZ]

So no Superman? Where's he going?

[TROUBLEZ]

That's ironic since Hush dynamited over two years worth of Batamn character development by Rucka and Brubaker...

What kind of character development got dynamite'd?

[Captain Jim]

So no Superman? Where's he going?

He's going to New Krypton for a year. He'll only be seen in the World of New Krypton 12-issue maxi-series.

[TROUBLEZ]

Well, it worked the Funeral for a Friend storyline. Then again, there was a big spectator market going on and it came of the heels of the Death of Superman storyline that made headlines everywhere.

*sigh*
DC, you poor dimwitted fools, stop with the gimmicks!

[nepenthes]

Not much of a sales pitch is it? I must say that I find that kind of response a real turn off and it does not make me want to pick up the book. Whenever I see a creator get that uptight, about valid criticism/concerns. It's usually a sign to me that the book will suck or it won't get any better. The best creators I've seen in comics book are the ones who listen or are at least responsive to fan feedback..

What exactly would you want him to say here? That she's lesbian little lesbian who does lots of lesbian things? He's just countering the 'gimmick!' complaint by suggesting there's alot more to her character. Yes it is a valid concern - that her sexuality will be treated as a gimmick - but he's saying it shouldn't be sensationlised. Thats a good thing isn't it.

[carabas]

What kind of character development got dynamite'd?The emotional payoff from two years worth of the grittiest, grimmest Batman ever.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/tec1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/BM1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/BM2.jpg

Rucka and Brubaker spent literally years building to this, and Loeb just ignored all of it, going instead for a sort of Batman's Greatest Hits collection. Especially if you see how the Catwoman relationship was ended in Hush.

[Mia]

What exactly would you want him to say here? That she's lesbian little lesbian who does lots of lesbian things? He's just countering the 'gimmick!' complaint by suggesting there's alot more to her character. Yes it is a valid concern - that her sexuality will be treated as a gimmick - but he's saying it shouldn't be sensationlised. Thats a good thing isn't it.

That’s not my issue and that’s not what he is saying. Here I’ll bold it for you:


Yes, she’s a lesbian. She’s also a redhead. It is an element of her character. It is not her character. If people are going to have problems with it, that’s their issue. That’s certainly not mine. My job is to write the best book I can about a character that I think is exceptionally cool, that J.H. Williams thinks is exceptionally cool, that DC Comics thinks is exceptionally cool and worthy of being the lead player in “Detective Comics.” And frankly, she should be judged on her merits.

I find that responding to readers concerns with ‘it’s their issue’, to be rather condescending and dismissive. Instead of telling readers to wait until the book comes out or providing some further insight into the character. He’s basically telling people if you don’t like Batwoman or what I will be doing in ‘Tec, too bad for you.

It’s a pretty lousy attitude and makes me feel disinclined to pick up the book.


DC's plan for both Superman and Batman this year, it seems, is to remove the lead character and turn the regular titles over to others. You can argue about whether this is a good idea or not, but it's not like Detective is being singled out in this regard. Superman is not going to be in either Action or Superman. The former will star a new Nightwing & Flamebird and the latter will star Mon-el & the Guardian--none of whom would be regarded as "first-stringers." Say what you will about Batwoman in Detective; at least they're consistent.


I can’t speak for Superman or his impending absence since I don’t read the book. But isn’t there a whole build up to this in ‘The New Krypton?’ Further besides Supergirl who would be the logical choice to take over for Superman? Whereas Batman has 3 supporting players who would be a far more natural fit to take over for Batman than Batwoman. Batwoman being the main character in 'Tec for more than a year is illogical and contrived. And more to the point it looks like DC catering to the whims of a writer as opposed to the readers who buy the books.

[kaelikins]

Tsk. So much fuss over a $2.99 book. :)

[Mia]

I still maintain that if they want to showcase Batwoman. She should get her own series or mini series like Orpheus and Huntress did. 'Tec should not be hijacked in order to showcase some authors pet character, when there are far more deserving and appropriate characters who should be heading up this book in Batman's abscence. Sorry but I'm sitting this out.

Well it looks as if I am wrong. DC came up with this brilliant idea for Batwoman to take over 'Tec for a year. Not Rucka.

However I am still sitting it out. I'm not particularly impressed by Batwoman. From what I have read of her, she's not the kind of comic book heroine I admire.
So when Bruce Wayne is back in charge. I'll start pulling this again.

[the goddamn batman]

Hey Mia, if you're not interested in the book... and are certainly not picking it up... why are you dedicating so much time to talking about it?

I'm not sure I've ever seen you talk at length about anything you actually, you know, like... is that just me?

As for the comment about it being your problem... it is. It's not his problem that you have a beef with the character. He's doing this run to try and give you a reason to like the character... to give her character. One that maybe you'll like. But if you're going to dismiss her out of hand and refuse to even give her a chance for whatever retarded reasons you or anyone else has chosen to do so... well, that's your problem. There's nothing he can do about it. There's nothing he can do in the book to change that, since you won't be picking it up.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Hey Mia, if you're not interested in the book... and are certainly not picking it up... why are you dedicating so much time to talking about it?

I'm not sure I've ever seen you talk at length about anything you actually, you know, like... is that just me?

As for the comment about it being your problem... it is. It's not his problem that you have a beef with the character. He's doing this run to try and give you a reason to like the character... to give her character. One that maybe you'll like. But if you're going to dismiss her out of hand and refuse to even give her a chance for whatever retarded reasons you or anyone else has chosen to do so... well, that's your problem. There's nothing he can do about it. There's nothing he can do in the book to change that, since you won't be picking it up.


"Whatever retarded reasons"

That's being polite, right?

I think Mia was just taking issue with Rucka comments about non fans of Batwoman. That given all the time he's had to flesh out Batwoman's character, Rucka really can't complain about people thinking that Batwoman is an overhyped gimmick. And I have to agree.

Sure, he could turn it around, make her into a well rounded character. But he put it off for two freakin' years while Batwoman recieved heavy promotion (for a new character) and while others were scuttled in her favor (Batgirl). He has no one but himself to blame for the general cynicism concerning her.

[the goddamn batman]

That given all the time he's had to flesh out Batwoman's character, Rucka really can't complain about people thinking that Batwoman is an overhyped gimmick. And I have to agree.

He flat out said that he understands that opinion, and doesn't blame people for thinking that... but if they're not going to give her a chance, he can't help that.

Sure, he could turn it around, make her into a well rounded character. But he put it off for two freakin' years while Batwoman recieved heavy promotion (for a new character) and while others were scuttled in her favor (Batgirl). He has no one but himself to blame for the general cynicism concerning her.

Yeah... you realize that Rucka doesn't actually run DC and therefore isn't the once deciding that Batwoman shouldn't get her own series. I mean, he said that he and Williams have been working on this book for two years. They've been at it this entire time. DC wouldn't let the book happen. That's not Rucka's fault.

[The Batman]

I find that responding to readers concerns with ‘it’s their issue’, to be rather condescending and dismissive. Instead of telling readers to wait until the book comes out or providing some further insight into the character. He’s basically telling people if you don’t like Batwoman or what I will be doing in ‘Tec, too bad for you.

It’s a pretty lousy attitude and makes me feel disinclined to pick up the book.



Except the only concern I see Rucka dismissing as is the one from readers who can't get past Batwoman's sexual orientation. And really, shouldn't that sort of close-minded attitude be dismissed?

Everything else Rucka's said, I think, shows that he gets why people might be skeptical about Batwoman (we don't really know her yet) and understands that it's his job to show us how cool she can be.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah... you realize that Rucka doesn't actually run DC and therefore isn't the once deciding that Batwoman shouldn't get her own series. I mean, he said that he and Williams have been working on this book for two years. They've been at it this entire time. DC wouldn't let the book happen. That's not Rucka's fault.

Do you realize that he's written her in 3 books now? That's time enough to give her some characterization beyond angry. A little foreshadowing wouldn't have killed him.

[the goddamn batman]

Do you realize that he's written her in 3 books now? That's time enough to give her some characterization beyond angry. A little foreshadowing wouldn't have killed him.

That's assuming editorial didn't give him constraints... which, considering how they've waffled since her introduction wouldn't surprise me.

And I haven't read the books she's been in, so I can't comment on them. To me, she's been nowhere. I've seen next to nothing from her.

But, in the end all I really see coming from you is that you're bitter about Batgirls supposed mistreatment for the sake of Batwoman... and that's kind of a dumb reason to slight another character, in my mind anyway. And hey, if that makes me an armchair shrink, or an ass or on your ignore list, too, well... then so be it. :smile:

[The Cool Thatguy]

That's assuming editorial didn't give him constraints... which, considering how they've waffled since her introduction wouldn't surprise me.

And I haven't read the books she's been in, so I can't comment on them. To me, she's been nowhere. I've seen next to nothing from her.

But, in the end all I really see coming from you is that you're bitter about Batgirls supposed mistreatment for the sake of Batwoman... and that's kind of a dumb reason to slight another character, in my mind anyway. And hey, if that makes me an armchair shrink, or an ass or on your ignore list, too, well... then so be it. :smile:

I don't need to put you on ignore, because I personally love to see people violate their personal code of conduct. It's personally amusing.

As for Batwoman, I doubt very much that they said 'Don't give her any characterization at all'. Given their willingness to violate canon on a whim, I suspect a few throw away lines here or there would trouble them all that much.

As for my dislike currently of Batwoman, there's nothing illogical about it. She's pushing aside better characters while offering nothing in return. That may change sure, but until then, she's a vacuum that does nothing but suck. Pun intended.

[The Batman]

So, how are they supposed to reverse that past neglect and turn Batwoman into a better, more interesting character without telling more stories about her?

How do you know she'll be "offering nothing in return" without having read Rucka's story?

[The Cool Thatguy]

So, how are they supposed to reverse that past neglect and turn Batwoman into a better, more interesting character without telling more stories about her?

How do you know she'll be "offering nothing in return" without having read Rucka's story?

I'm speaking about her current situation, not future. I don't care if they tell a million stories about her. But I do care when she crowds out other characters. She kicked Cass to the curb out of the gate and is taking over Detective which should really go to Nightwing, Huntress, someone else basically.

It's called a mini series, or an ongoing. Plenty of 52 stars have gotten them, why not Batwoman?

[the goddamn batman]

I don't need to put you on ignore, because I personally love to see people violate their personal code of conduct. It's personally amusing.

I'm not violating anything. I asked you to not attack me directly. I've not made any personal attacks on you. There's a difference between saying you've seen several reasons that you think are retarded and directly calling someone an ass.

As for Batwoman, I doubt very much that they said 'Don't give her any characterization at all'. Given their willingness to violate canon on a whim, I suspect a few throw away lines here or there would trouble them all that much.

Neither of us know anything for fact. Maybe Rucka didn't worry about getting into her characterization in small appearances because he thought her main title would happen sooner than it has.

At the end of the day, who cares? They're worrying about it now, and if you're not willing to give her a chance now, that's your problem.

She's pushing aside better characters while offering nothing in return.

As I've said several times, you're just upset about Batgirl getting the shaft. It's that simple. It's got nothing to do with anything else.

[The Batman]

I'm speaking about her current situation, not future. I don't care if they tell a million stories about her. But I do care when she crowds out other characters. She kicked Cass to the curb out of the gate and is taking over Detective which should really go to Nightwing, Huntress, someone else basically.

It's called a mini series, or an ongoing. Plenty of 52 stars have gotten them, why not Batwoman?

Crowd out other characters?

So, your problem isn't that they're paying attention to Batwoman, it's that they're paying attention to Batwoman and not Batgirl?

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm not violating anything. I asked you to not attack me directly. I've not made any personal attacks on you. There's a difference between saying you've seen several reasons that you think are retarded and directly calling someone an ass..

Calling someone retarded is still considered impolite no matter how ya cut it. So...

Neither of us know anything for fact. Maybe Rucka didn't worry about getting into her characterization in small appearances because he thought her main title would happen sooner than it has..

Well, I do know for a fact that she bumped off Batgirl, she has no characterization and doesn't deserve Detective series. That's enough for me.

At the end of the day, who cares? They're worrying about it now, and if you're not willing to give her a chance now, that's your problem..

If no one cares, as you insist time and time again, why do you keep coming back to this thread?


As I've said several times, you're just upset about Batgirl getting the shaft. It's that simple. It's got nothing to do with anything else.

You can say it as many times as you want. But the fact is, you're not me and in addition you're wrong. Not a complicated situation, really.

I have to ask though, if you've decided everyone's opinion for yourself, why are you even bothering to try to debate?

[the goddamn batman]

Calling someone retarded is still considered impolite no matter how ya cut it. So...

I didn't call anyone retarded. I called "reasons" retarded. If you fell compelled to lump your personal reasons into that, that's all on you buddy.

If no one cares, as you insist time and time again, why do you keep coming back to this thread?

Morbid curiosity?

You can say it as many times as you want. But the fact is, you're not me and in addition you're wrong. Not a complicated situation, really.

How am I wrong? You've said repeatedly that Batgirl's gotten the shaft for Batwoman and that upsets you. How am I wrong in saying that? Is it about the fact that I said it?

I have to ask though, if you've decided everyone's opinion for yourself, why are you even bothering to try to debate?

If you're denying things you've said yourself time and time again, why are you trying to deny them?

Also? I made a stand alone statement, directed at no one in specific, and you responded to me. And I've responded to you. That's why I'm "debating."

And, furthermore, this is going nowhere faster than it did last time, and I'm not interested in doing this nonsense all over again. I've frankly just got better things to do with my time. So, I'm done.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I didn't call anyone retarded. I called "reasons" retarded. If you fell compelled to lump your personal reasons into that, that's all on you buddy.."

So calling someone's personal opinion's retarded isn't calling them retarded. Right...


How am I wrong? You've said repeatedly that Batgirl's gotten the shaft for Batwoman and that upsets you. How am I wrong in saying that? Is it about the fact that I said it?."

"It's got nothing to do with anything else."

That's where you're wrong. You constantly ignore all those other reasons that I cite. Not surprised since they're far more valid.

If you're denying things you've said yourself time and time again, why are you bothering to deny them?."

Because you take them out of context and treat them as the sole issue, maybe?

Also? I made a stand alone statement, directed at no one in specific, and you responded to me. And I've responded to you. That's why I'm "debating."

You've nisrepresented me several times now. Last time I checked, that ain't debate.

[TROUBLEZ]

Rucka and Brubaker spent literally years building to this, and Loeb just ignored all of it, going instead for a sort of Batman's Greatest Hits collection. Especially if you see how the Catwoman relationship was ended in Hush.

I'm sorry but I don't see how Loeb contradicted any of this stuff, but maybe I need to re-read Hush and also read some of the prior issues.

Do you mean that Loeb should have atleast referenced some of the stuff that was from the prior runs?

...Actually, I think I get what you mean. It felt like HUSH was in it's own little world.
Looking back I think that was a big mistake on Editorials part. Instead of feeling like the HUSH story was just part of Batman's ongoing story, it felt more like it was in it's own little world, and ended in it's own little world to only be continued whenever Loeb and Lee got together again.

I think that's what made me drop the title after they left (not to mention the art or Risso). The storyline was more creator centric. Although I liked that it wasn't a maxi-series, it would probably have been more appropriate.
It would have been more impressive had Loeb continued with the themes, whatever they were, that the previous writers had establish, and create some of his own to be continued.

[TROUBLEZ]

I though it was funny how Rucka claims that the New York Times made up an interview with Dan Didio and invented quotes to later attribute to him.
Sure.

I also, don't understand why she's getting so much attention in Detective. Especially when Batman is gone. You would think they would go with someone with a little more recognition.

[Duy]

Well it looks as if I am wrong. DC came up with this brilliant idea for Batwoman to take over 'Tec for a year. Not Rucka.

However I am still sitting it out. I'm not particularly impressed by Batwoman. From what I have read of her, she's not the kind of comic book heroine I admire.
So when Bruce Wayne is back in charge. I'll start pulling this again.
You do not know anything about her, other than she is Jewish and gay. How can you judge based on that if she is the type you admire?

[d newton]

As for my dislike currently of Batwoman, there's nothing illogical about it. She's pushing aside better characters while offering nothing in return. That may change sure, but until then, she's a vacuum that does nothing.
I could say the same thing about Cass post War Games.

[Sean Whitmore]

That’s not my issue and that’s not what he is saying. Here I’ll bold it for you:

It may not be your issue, but it certainly is what he's saying.

Here, I'LL bold it for YOU.

Q: You mentioned Batwoman’s coming out in “52” both literally and figuratively. The reveal made international headlines. Will Batwoman’s sexual orientation be considered in “Detective Comics?”

A: Let’s get this straight. Her sexual orientation wasn’t revealed in “52.” Her sexual orientation was revealed in a “New York Times” article. And the “New York Times” article got all this attention and got picked up all over the place and quotes from the article somehow mysteriously came from Dan DiDio, things that he never said and so on, so by the time she showed up in “52,” what happened was every one said, “Oh, the gay one.”

Yes, she’s a lesbian. She’s also a redhead. It is an element of her character. It is not her character. If people are going to have problems with it, that’s their issue.

Context: it's what's for dinner.


SEAN

[Mia]

You do not know anything about her, other than she is Jewish and gay. How can you judge based on that if she is the type you admire?

That's not true. I did read about her in some issues of '52' as well as the 2007 Holiday special. And I was underwhelmed and unimpressed by what I read.

[Mat001]

Well, we've got 12-14 issues.

[nepenthes]

I'd love to see Williams draw The Spectre. Crispin Allen I mean

[Firebaton]

Sorry if it was ironic that I don't read Batman regularly, or at all. I don't like the character by himself, just a personal issue.
I like Rucka, I loved Checkmate and Wonder Woman and a bunch of his other work, I just don't read Batman regularly and was going to pass on this run except for Bette Kane sold me. I might have gotten it in trade because Batwoman is interesting but it is really the Bette Kane factor that gets me to pick this up monthly.

Thom

[Duy]

That's not true. I did read about her in some issues of '52' as well as the 2007 Holiday special. And I was underwhelmed and unimpressed by what I read.

Okay, I read all of those.

And there was nothing in there to flesh out her character except for three things: she's gay, she's Jewish, and she's caring enough to help restore her grandmother's faith and to give shelter to a dying Question.

Sure, that last part is Superhero 101, but what exactly isn't admirable?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Okay, I read all of those.

And there was nothing in there to flesh out her character except for three things: she's gay, she's Jewish, and she's caring enough to help restore her grandmother's faith and to give shelter to a dying Question.

Sure, that last part is Superhero 101, but what exactly isn't admirable?

"underwhelmed and unimpressed by what I read."

That was what Mia said. S/he didn't say that Batwoman isn't admirable, just under whelming and unimpressive. When you cite what someone says, I would strongly suggest that you don't distort the statement in question.

Being gay or Jewish isn't characterization. It's not depth, it's not foreshadowing, it's really next to nothing. Yes, those facts can compliment characterization, they can be used as tools to give the character depth. But in and of themselves, they're not really noteworthy.

[Sean Whitmore]

"underwhelmed and unimpressed by what I read."

That was what Mia said. S/he didn't say that Batwoman isn't admirable, just under whelming and unimpressive. When you cite what someone says, I would strongly suggest that you don't distort the statement in question.


Well it looks as if I am wrong. DC came up with this brilliant idea for Batwoman to take over 'Tec for a year. Not Rucka.

However I am still sitting it out. I'm not particularly impressed by Batwoman. From what I have read of her, she's not the kind of comic book heroine I admire. So when Bruce Wayne is back in charge. I'll start pulling this again.


We done making suggestions now?


SEAN

[Duy]

Sean beat me to it, but please check histories if you're going to condemn.


We done making suggestions now?


SEAN

Thanks, Sean.

[Sean Whitmore]

No problem, but back to Batwoman, everyone.


SEAN

[nepenthes]

Are there any interesting origins left anymore? motivation, training etc. I'll be very interested to see what Rucka can pull out of his hat here.

[Maestro]

I'll give this a try, but this becomes late even ONCE I'm done... !

[Flâneur]

That's not true. I did read about her in some issues of '52' as well as the 2007 Holiday special. And I was underwhelmed and unimpressed by what I read.
Can you give me a summary of the character beats that went on in that holiday issue? I've been wanting to read more of Batwoman but can't find it.

[Mia]

Okay, I read all of those.

And there was nothing in there to flesh out her character except for three things: she's gay, she's Jewish, and she's caring enough to help restore her grandmother's faith and to give shelter to a dying Question.

Sure, that last part is Superhero 101, but what exactly isn't admirable?

That's not true. There was plenty of evidence of her personality and temperment in those stories. None of which I found very interesting. There is a certain type of comic book heroine I enjoy reading about. And Batwoman does not fit that type.

[carabas]

Odd. She seems the same type as Huntress, which is often used as a criticism on Bat-Woman.

[Mia]

Can you give me a summary of the character beats that went on in that holiday issue? I've been wanting to read more of Batwoman but can't find it.

In a nutshell.

Kate talks to some old woman (don't know the relation) as to why she doesn't put up a menorah in her home. The woman talks about how when she was a child the menorah her dad made was stolen by some thugs in 1939 Poland. As a result the woman doesn't put up menorah since she does not believe in miracles.


During the breaking up of a robery. Batwoman comes across a menorah similar to the one that the old lady described. Kate takes the menorah and returns it to the old lady. Who now has her faith restored and puts up the menorah in her home and Hannukah is celebrated.

[Duy]

That's not true. There was plenty of evidence of her personality and temperment in those stories. None of which I found very interesting. There is a certain type of comic book heroine I enjoy reading about. And Batwoman does not fit that type.

What's the type? All I saw was heroic, really.

In a nutshell.

Kate talks to some old woman (don't know the relation) as to why she doesn't put up a menorah in her home. The woman talks about how when she was a child the menorah her dad made was stolen by some thugs in 1939 Poland. As a result the woman doesn't put up menorah since she does not believe in miracles.


During the breaking up of a robery. Batwoman comes across a menorah similar to the one that the old lady described. Kate takes the menorah and returns it to the old lady. Who now has her faith restored and puts up the menorah in her home and Hannukah is celebrated.

I believe the woman is her grandmother.

[Mia]

What's the type? All I saw was heroic, really.
.

All superhoroes are in some way heroic. That’s a given. I’m speaking of her personality. I find her too one dimensional and boring.

[Duy]

All superhoroes are in some way heroic. That’s a given. I’m speaking of her personality. I find her too one dimensional and boring.
That's why she's getting her own series, so she's not one-dimensional.

Once upon a time, Batman was one-dimensional too.

[Sean Whitmore]

That's why she's getting her own series, so she's not one-dimensional.

Once upon a time, Batman was one-dimensional too.

Hell, go back to the beginning, and Batman would've needed a dimension to be one-dimensional.


SEAN

[pariah-1972]

I'm just wondering why all the venom for a character that hasn't been fleshed out yet? is it because shes a lesbian? (i know some people will say no but it does make you wonder) or maybe it's the name Batwoman? since we already have a Batgirl..

I can understand if some people are tired of the spin offs of Batman.

[Mia]

That's why she's getting her own series, so she's not one-dimensional.

Once upon a time, Batman was one-dimensional too.

Who knows how it will turn out? I'll give it a look when it shows up in TPB. But as it stands now, I just don't find her that interesting.

[carabas]

I'm just wondering why all the venom for a character that hasn't been fleshed out yet? is it because shes a lesbian? (i know some people will say no but it does make you wonder) or maybe it's the name Batwoman? since we already have a Batgirl.I think a big part of the venom is the fact that the Batgirl ongoing (which was selling not terribly well, but way above cancelation numbers, and was actually going up in numbers towards the end) was canceled to make room for a Batwoman ongoing by Devin Grayson. Which then went unpublished with two issues completely done, art and all, for reasons unknown.

[GDB]

I think a big part of the venom is the fact that the Batgirl ongoing (which was selling not terribly well, but way above cancelation numbers, and was actually going up in numbers towards the end) was canceled to make room for a Batwoman ongoing by Devin Grayson. Which then went unpublished with two issues completely done, art and all, for reasons unknown.

Isn't going unpublished a good thing though? I mean... it was Devin Grayson. Look at what she did to Nightwing. >_>

[Mat001]

Not all of Devin's Nightwing run was bad.

[pariah-1972]

Isn't going unpublished a good thing though? I mean... it was Devin Grayson. Look at what she did to Nightwing. >_>I just hope she stays away from Birds of Prey after seeing how she handled Babs.

[Christoffer]

I want to get in to the Batman-verse but with this Crisis stuff going on I don't know where to start.. I'm a DC nub. This new Batwoman series seem cool though, wich other Batman title should I be picking up? I want something self-contained yet still in the main DC universe.

[nepenthes]

^ Batman and Son tpb
The Black Glove
Batman RIP

this is Morrisons run so far and will get up-to-date with the current story.

Detective
Death and the City
Private Casebook

Dini's run so far.

[pariah-1972]

I want to get in to the Batman-verse but with this Crisis stuff going on I don't know where to start.. I'm a DC nub. This new Batwoman series seem cool though, wich other Batman title should I be picking up? I want something self-contained yet still in the main DC universe.Get all of Dini's run on Detective which is self contained..

[Captain Jim]

I want to get in to the Batman-verse but with this Crisis stuff going on I don't know where to start.. I'm a DC nub. This new Batwoman series seem cool though, wich other Batman title should I be picking up? I want something self-contained yet still in the main DC universe.

Well, it sounds like you're looking for a regular comic title, but everyone is recommending trade paperbacks. I'd suggest the Battle for the Cowl mini-series that begins next month. That will certainly bring you up to date on the current status quo.

[nepenthes]

yeah sorry if you're after monthly then Battle of the Cowl should be good for new readers because a) it's short b) it features every major supporting character so it will be a great introduction and c) it will set the stage for the next year or so. apart from that, we don't really know much about how the titles will look in July when they go back to normal. Right now you're best bet is to pick up trades or wait for BOTC

[carabas]

Not all of Devin's Nightwing run was bad.The steroid cola arc was horrible. I enjoyed the rest of it a lot. Shame she didn't get to do the final act of her story.