Mephisto

[ManofTheAtom]

I'm sure this has been covered, but I haven't kept up with message boards in over a year.

Any idea of when the comics will ever address the fact that no one who has ever made a deal with Mephisto has benefited from it? (unless I'm mistaken and someone has. If that's the case disregard - and please tell me who that someone might be).

From what I remember, from Johnny Blaze to Everret K Ross, no one who has dealt with Mephisto has gotten what they wanted except for Peter Parker, which seems very odd considering that, unlike other heroes, Peter suffers from the worst bad luck in comics (aka "the Parker Luck").

One would think that, when combined, the Parker Luck and dealing with Mephisto would result in the worst possible outcome, but thus far everything has been going great for Peter. Nothing bad has actually happened at all.

Is there a plan, something that the stories are working towards (i.e. a second confrontation with Mephisto that will end with the return of the marriage but the added benefit of retaining all the positives that came out of it)?

I could definitely belive that Spider-man could best the devil (that's a classic in many theologies), but not that a deal with Mephisto doesn't come with fine print.

Mephisto usually expects to gain from the deals he makes, and it doesn't ring true that he would do this just to break up a marriage. There has to be something more.

Anyway, rant done... though some answers woud be appreciated.

[CMBMOOL]

There are some people, like me, who want this question answered, but Marvel and the Spidey team is being stubborn about this question and refuse to answer it fully. :mad:

[ManofTheAtom]

There are some people, like me, who want this question answered, but Marvel and the Spidey team is being stubborn about this question and refuse to answer it fully. :mad:
I'm mostly confused, specially in light of the first part of the Harry story that retconed his death.

That didn't require making a deal with the devil, in fact it was a very interesting call back to Norman's own return from the death.

It's been a year and thus far there have been no stories that couldn't have been told with a married Spider-Man.

[Dr. Chaos]

Spider-Man has benefited from a deal with Mephisto, his book is now arguably better than it has been in many years.

Mephisto got what he wanted and so did Peter and whatsherface, it's done deal. That storyline is over and done. There is no return plans for the marriage.

It's been over a year, about time to get over it and move on.

By the way, I'm guessing this is probably going to be merged with one of the mega threads seeing as how you're not exactly saying anything new we haven't heard from a couple of choice complainers here every week.

[ManofTheAtom]

It's been over a year, about time to get over it and move on.

Meh. The marriage had been going strong for like 15 years or more and that didn't stop people from complaining about it...

Now, I don't disagree with you that the comics are better than they have been in a long time, but that has NOTHING to do with the marriage or the deal with Mephisto.

Nothing that has happened so far couldn't have been done with a married Spider-Man

[ShaggyB]

I'm sure this has been covered, but I haven't kept up with message boards in over a year.

Any idea of when the comics will ever address the fact that no one who has ever made a deal with Mephisto has benefited from it? (unless I'm mistaken and someone has. If that's the case disregard - and please tell me who that someone might be).

well there was The Master Pandemonium (http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/m/masterpandemonium.htm)

He wanted a new arm... mephisto gave him that .... seemed cut and dry for his soul.... hes a villain though..... And it seems like Mephisto has killed him since.... but he did get what he wanted.



From what I remember, from Johnny Blaze to Everret K Ross, no one who has dealt with Mephisto has gotten what they wanted except for Peter Parker, which seems very odd considering that, unlike other heroes, Peter suffers from the worst bad luck in comics (aka "the Parker Luck").

technically Blaze no longer had dealings with mephisto. Its back to being the devil. (which it was before mephisto, who was retconned in.....)



One would think that, when combined, the Parker Luck and dealing with Mephisto would result in the worst possible outcome, but thus far everything has been going great for Peter. Nothing bad has actually happened at all.

Is there a plan, something that the stories are working towards (i.e. a second confrontation with Mephisto that will end with the return of the marriage but the added benefit of retaining all the positives that came out of it)?

perhaps, no one really knows....



I could definitely belive that Spider-man could best the devil (that's a classic in many theologies), but not that a deal with Mephisto doesn't come with fine print.

Mephisto usually expects to gain from the deals he makes, and it doesn't ring true that he would do this just to break up a marriage. There has to be something more.

Anyway, rant done... though some answers woud be appreciated.

they're really are no answers for you on this one..... but this could prolly go in the "The Deal with A Devil" thread. Id recommend a read through of that if you have a chance.

[ShaggyB]

Nothing that has happened so far couldn't have been done with a married Spider-Man

soooo you think MJ dating Carr can be done with a married spider-man? And dont say that can be changed because if you have to change it then it cant be done as is with a married spider-man......

[ManofTheAtom]

well there was The Master Pandemonium (http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/m/masterpandemonium.htm)

He wanted a new arm... mephisto gave him that .... seemed cut and dry for his soul.... hes a villain though..... And it seems like Mephisto has killed him since.... but he did get what he wanted.

Ah, but it's all in the fine print.

Preston offered Mephisto his soul in exchange for having his arm restored to him. Mephisto agreed, and summoned a lesser demon, wrenched off its arm and magically attached it to Preston's shoulder stump. Preston lost consciousness in the process, and was insensate when Mephisto severed his uninjured left arm and replaced it with a demon's arm, as well.

By doing this Mephisto gained a toady. What has he gained from his deal with Peter?


technically Blaze no longer had dealings with mephisto. Its back to being the devil. (which it was before mephisto, who was retconned in.....)

I'm one of those people that knows very little about Ghost Rider since it's a comic I don't read. All I'm aware is the "broad strokes" of the concept, and far as I know he made his deal with Mephisto (as seen in the movie and I'm sure other versions of the story, if any), so I'm unaware of any retcons, the reasons for them, or when they happened, heh.


perhaps, no one really knows....

And that's the problem.


they're really are no answers for you on this one..... but this could prolly go in the "The Deal with A Devil" thread. Id recommend a read through of that if you have a chance.

If I can, sure, thanks for the suggestion. I'm too busy to read threads that have too many posts, though, which is why I made this one.

[Endless Flight]

It's been over a year, about time to get over it and move on.


Yeah, because we know that the aging comic book fan base forget things and move on so soon!

Visit any comic book forum and you'll see everything from the Crisis on Infinite Earths to the Clone Saga still being debated.

This ain't going away anytime soon.

[ManofTheAtom]

soooo you think MJ dating Carr can be done with a married spider-man? And dont say that can be changed because if you have to change it then it cant be done as is with a married spider-man......
Sure it can be done, just like having Pete move in with this cop guy can be done with a married Spider-Man and having Harry's gf kiss Pete can be done with a married Spider-Man, and it wouldn't have to be changed from what appears in the comics. Just have them split up, stay married but live apart.

Has it been done before? Sure, but so has a lot of other stuff that happens in comics.

The question becomes "what to rehash and what not to rehash?"

When you rehash something from an old comic and it comes off indistinguishable from the original, then you DON'T rehash, but in the case of splitting Pete and MJ without divorcing them or making a deal with the devil, the stories that can be explored can be different from the ones done before.

For instance, "Pete moves out of his Aunt May's house into an apartment with a roommate" has been done, at least, twice before, once with Harry in the 70's and again with Robbie's son in the 90's (though I forget why he moved in with Robbie's son in the 90s. Was it around the time that he thought MJ died in the airplane explosion?). Just like this "rehash" of the same idea has resulted in different stories than the ones told back then *, the stories that could come out of splitting Pete and MJ can be different from the ones told the other times they have gone their own way (i.e. the ones we've seen thus far, which are different from previous stories).

* Having said that, that Kraven's daughter confused the cop with Peter Parker is itself a rehash of when whoever it was (the Green Goblin?) thought that Flash Thompson was Spider-Man.

[ShaggyB]

What has he gained from his deal with Peter?

the marriage being gone and the sweet sound of peter and mj's pieces of souls screaming till they die... ahhh music to his ears.... Perhaps deth metal just became to bore'n for him.




I'm one of those people that knows very little about Ghost Rider since it's a comic I don't read. All I'm aware is the "broad strokes" of the concept, and far as I know he made his deal with Mephisto (as seen in the movie and I'm sure other versions of the story, if any), so I'm unaware of any retcons, the reasons for them, or when they happened, heh.

not so... in the movie it is the devil. Thats not Mephisto. The only connection you can draw is blackheart is used. In the movie that is very much Satan.

Originally in the 70s blaze calls upon "The Lord of Darkness" to sell his soul to. Later it is retconned... or discovered that the entity that appeared before him wasnt Satan at all it was Mephisto.... Now its back to The Lord of Darkness again. Likewise it is shown that his girl cancels the deal and God puts the Spirit of Vengeance in him.... Hes not even the devils tool now....




And that's the problem.

Ahh the "keep reading" line is the answer for this one..... Id imagine either marvel addresses it directly or lets it go the way of sins past......




If I can, sure, thanks for the suggestion. I'm too busy to read threads that have too many posts, though, which is why I made this one.

good luck then.... its a huge one....

[Hertz]

soooo you think MJ dating Carr can be done with a married spider-man? And dont say that can be changed because if you have to change it then it cant be done as is with a married spider-man......

Well, it was a bad story so, you can just throw it out.

[ShaggyB]

Sure it can be done, just like having Pete move in with this cop guy can be done with a married Spider-Man and having Harry's gf kiss Pete can be done with a married Spider-Man, and it wouldn't have to be changed from what appears in the comics. Just have them split up, stay married but live apart.



That changes the story thats on the page. If Mj is sleeping with Carr while married to pete then shes cheating on him. Thats not what appeared in the paperdoll arc. That makes it a change and thus the story cant work as told.

[ShaggyB]

Well, it was a bad story so, you can just throw it out.

lol it would make his argument work better if i did.... but it doesnt work that way either.....

[ManofTheAtom]

Yeah, because we know that the aging comic book fan base forget things and move on so soon!

Visit any comic book forum and you'll see everything from the Crisis on Infinite Earths to the Clone Saga still being debated.

This ain't going away anytime soon.
Have you ever considered that it's "younger readers" (i.e. those who began in the 80's and 90's) that pay more attention to details while it's the "older readers" (i.e. those from the 60's and 70's) that have an easier time letting go?

It's a result of the way stories were told during those two different decades. In the 60's and 70's there were no long term plans or repercussions, while in the 80's and 90's the style of storytelling changed.

[JamesOliva]

technically Blaze no longer had dealings with mephisto. Its back to being the devil. (which it was before mephisto, who was retconned in.....)

It was originally Satan (later revealed to be Marduk Kurios), father Daimon and Satanna Hellstrom, who in the 70's was written closer to be the Biblical Satan than Mephisto was. There was actually a pretty cool Steve Gerber story about Satan having a nightmare on Christmas Eve. Plus he did use the image of Christ (aka the Friend) to tease Blaze.

Whether or not this Satan was supposed to be Lucifer the Fallen Angel (who now was responsible for Blaze's status) was never really revealed.

[Hertz]

lol it would make his argument work better if i did.... but it doesnt work that way either.....

So, it can't be ignored like Sins Past?

[ShaggyB]

It was originally Satan (later revealed to be Marduk Kurios), father Daimon and Satanna Hellstrom, who in the 70's was written closer to be the Biblical Satan than Mephisto was. There was actually a pretty cool Steve Gerber story about Satan having a nightmare on Christmas Eve. Plus he did use the image of Christ (aka the Friend) to tease Blaze.

Whether or not this Satan was supposed to be Lucifer the Fallen Angel (who now was responsible for Blaze's status) was never really revealed.

very true... it was just later revealed to be mephisto... who still tormented blaze throughout Ketch's run as ghost rider. (See Spirits of Vengeance)

Currently its Lucifer that Blaze barters with and his girl saves him.... Though it was a very confusing arc if ask me......

[ManofTheAtom]

the marriage being gone and the sweet sound of peter and mj's pieces of souls screaming till they die... ahhh music to his ears.... Perhaps deth metal just became to bore'n for him.

Heh... well, for Mephisto to gain some sort of pleasure out of disrupting Peter Parker's marriage, there has to be something exceedingly important about their union that would require the involvement of a creature such as his.

Isn't Peter Parker supposed to be the "everyman", or at least that's what editors and writers have said? Why is the "everyman's" marriage that important to the lord of darkness?


not so... in the movie it is the devil. Thats not Mephisto. The only connection you can draw is blackheart is used. In the movie that is very much Satan.

Well, he is credited as Mephistopheles, which is the long form for Mephisto.


Originally in the 70s blaze calls upon "The Lord of Darkness" to sell his soul to. Later it is retconned... or discovered that the entity that appeared before him wasnt Satan at all it was Mephisto.... Now its back to The Lord of Darkness again. Likewise it is shown that his girl cancels the deal and God puts the Spirit of Vengeance in him.... Hes not even the devils tool now....

I'll take your word on it, heh. Just keep in mind that Mephistopheles/Mephisto is one of the devil's many names (i.e. Satan, Belzebub, etc).


Ahh the "keep reading" line is the answer for this one..... Id imagine either marvel addresses it directly or lets it go the way of sins past......

Well, "keep reading" is much better than "it'll all be explained".

[JamesOliva]

very true... it was just later revealed to be mephisto... who still tormented blaze throughout Ketch's run as ghost rider. (See Spirits of Vengeance)

Currently its Lucifer that Blaze barters with and his girl saves him.... Though it was a very confusing arc if ask me......

Yeah I know, I just love the chance to talk about this little corner of Marveldom. I love the 70's & 80's Hellstorm stories. I probably should be reading Marvel Zombies 4 but I just can't get into that concept.

[ManofTheAtom]

That changes the story thats on the page. If Mj is sleeping with Carr while married to pete then shes cheating on him. Thats not what appeared in the paperdoll arc. That makes it a change and thus the story cant work as told.

How many times has Sue Richards made out with Namor?

Why can't MJ sleep with Carr just because she's still married with Pete? (I don't personally think she should, but what can stop her, specially since, in this scenario, they'd be split up?)

Doesn't Marvel take pride (sometimes) that, unlike DC, their stories take place in the "real world"?

In the "real world" married people that split up with the intent of divorcing date other people and don't just go out to the soda shop and hold hands.

[ShaggyB]

So, it can't be ignored like Sins Past?

i never said the fans are ignoring sin's past... i said marvel seemed to be.... though thats likely inaccurate as sin's past explains why norman wouldnt be going nuts as to why he killed gwen.

But again he said the story could work, and then he listed something that would change the story.... changes /= working as is....

The argument is tired at this point. Sure most stories could work with a married peter but there are a few that fundamentally would be changed if peter was married Carr and MJ is one of them.

[stillanerd]

Spider-Man has benefited from a deal with Mephisto, his book is now arguably better than it has been in many years.

Mephisto got what he wanted and so did Peter and whatsherface, it's done deal. That storyline is over and done. There is no return plans for the marriage.

It's been over a year, about time to get over it and move on.

By the way, I'm guessing this is probably going to be merged with one of the mega threads seeing as how you're not exactly saying anything new we haven't heard from a couple of choice complainers here every week.

The thing is that while it was a means to an end to get Spider-Man back to being single (which I don't have a problem with) and that while Peter and MJ's marriage being dissolved was bound to happen, the way it was done is was certainly the worse possible way it could have been done and it sticks in a lot of people's craw to this day.

As I said in other threads, unless Marvel has Spider-Man remember that he used to be married to MJ, One More Day will continue to be the 800 pound gorilla in the room, the Albatross around the title's neck, or whatever analogy you want to use. And just because Peter would remember that he used to be married or that he made a deal with Mephisto to sacrifice his marriage to save Aunt May doesn't necessarily mean that Peter and MJ would automatically get married again. If anything, the idea would make Peter that much more guilt ridden, not to mention the awkwardness that would exist between him and MJ for some time afterwards.

And if Bobby Carr turns out to be Mysterio (and yes, I think there were clues in the Papparazzi story, especially the last part, to suggest that Bobby Car is not what he appears to be) brought back to life because of Mephisto, and you combine Peter and MJ remembering they used to be more than live-ins, it would really do a number on them emotionally. But at least, Spider-Man would be continually defeated by Mephisto as he is now because he doesn't remember what his life was really like before the deal was made.

[JamesOliva]

not so... in the movie it is the devil. Thats not Mephisto. The only connection you can draw is blackheart is used. In the movie that is very much Satan.

I think that was more of a rights thing. I believe that the Mephisto character is part of the Silver Surfer character. Remember in the pre-Marvel studio days Marvel had to sell their character movie rights as packaged deals. Hence in the Spider-Man cartoon we won't see Kingpin.

The Mephistopheles character is very much inline with Mephsito's characterization (keeping in mind that when the movie was in development the Mephisto retcon was still a bart of Blaze's origin). Plus he's Blackheart's father.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think that was more of a rights thing. I believe that the Mephisto character is part of the Silver Surfer character. Remember in the pre-Marvel studio days Marvel had to sell their character movie rights as packaged deals. Hence in the Spider-Man cartoon we won't see Kingpin.

The Mephistopheles character is very much inline with Mephsito's characterization (keeping in mind that when the movie was in development the Mephisto retcon was still a bart of Blaze's origin). Plus he's Blackheart's father.
What's the deal with Mephisto's interest in Norrin Radd? What does he have to gain there?

[ShaggyB]

Heh... well, for Mephisto to gain some sort of pleasure out of disrupting Peter Parker's marriage, there has to be something exceedingly important about their union that would require the involvement of a creature such as his.

Isn't Peter Parker supposed to be the "everyman", or at least that's what editors and writers have said? Why is the "everyman's" marriage that important to the lord of darkness?

Mephisto isnt the lord of darkness..... but i follow you. Honestly i just think mephisto was bored. Perhaps the screams are soothing... maybe he has a migraine and asprin doesnt work....

You'll find a few here that go.... well he gained the one up on God. But clearly if mephisto is a demon who likes to impersonate the devil, it would be well within that act to say he was trying to one up God. More over there isnt a story in which mephisto attacks heaven....




Well, he is credited as Mephistopheles, which is the long form for Mephisto.


:smile:

Real Name: Unrevealed. "Mephisto," which is short for "Mephistopheles," is a name given him by human beings who mistakenly believed him to be a legendary devil.




I'll take your word on it, heh. Just keep in mind that Mephistopheles/Mephisto is one of the devil's manay names (i.e. Satan, Belzebub, etc).

as long as you keep in mind that Mephisto likes to pretend to be the devil, so in that deception he would use a name commonly known to be of the devil.




Well, "keep reading" is much better than "it'll all be explained".

basically its the same. and you forgot "in due time"

[ShaggyB]

I think that was more of a rights thing. I believe that the Mephisto character is part of the Silver Surfer character. Remember in the pre-Marvel studio days Marvel had to sell their character movie rights as packaged deals. Hence in the Spider-Man cartoon we won't see Kingpin.

The Mephistopheles character is very much inline with Mephsito's characterization (keeping in mind that when the movie was in development the Mephisto retcon was still a bart of Blaze's origin). Plus he's Blackheart's father.

Possibly but the movie works eitherway... much like the book did.... He does call himself "the devils bounty hunter" in the movie....


What's the deal with Mephisto's interest in Norrin Radd? What does he have to gain there?

he likes pure souls... they are worth more power... though i question the purity of the surfers soul as of late......

[JamesOliva]

What's the deal with Mephisto's interest in Norrin Radd? What does he have to gain there?
Dude likes to see people suffer. Surfer was basically Cosmic Jesus in the 60's and 70's. In fact, One More Day is a lot closer in tone and characterization to Mephisto's fist appearance in Surfer #3.

Plus, a great chunk of Judeo-Christian lore involves the Devil torturing the everyman. Who was Job? Who was Faust? Who was Joe Boyd? Nobodies.

[ManofTheAtom]

Mephisto isnt the lord of darkness..... but i follow you. Honestly i just think mephisto was bored. Perhaps the screams are soothing... maybe he has a migraine and asprin doesnt work....

You'll find a few here that go.... well he gained the one up on God. But clearly if mephisto is a demon who likes to impersonate the devil, it would be well within that act to say he was trying to one up God. More over there isnt a story in which mephisto attacks heaven....

Mephisto made a deal with Everett K Ross to buy his soul in exchange for a pair of pants. That sounds more like something he would do if he was bored.

Without some inherit importance to disrupting the union between Peter and MJ, bringing Mephisto into it just reeks of bad writing, you know?

As cliche as it sounds, even saying that he had to break them apart because some day in the future their offspring will kill him would at least give the story some semblance of logic, you know?


:smile:

Real Name: Unrevealed. "Mephisto," which is short for "Mephistopheles," is a name given him by human beings who mistakenly believed him to be a legendary devil.

Heh. Again, you'd know better than I do.


as long as you keep in mind that Mephisto likes to pretend to be the devil, so in that deception he would use a name commonly known to be of the devil.

Got it.

[ShaggyB]

How many times has Sue Richards made out with Namor?

Why can't MJ sleep with Carr just because she's still married with Pete? (I don't personally think she should, but what can stop her, specially since, in this scenario, they'd be split up?)

Doesn't Marvel take pride (sometimes) that, unlike DC, their stories take place in the "real world"?

In the "real world" married people that split up with the intent of divorcing date other people and don't just go out to the soda shop and hold hands.

Simply put because the story then changes and becomes about MJ cheating. Thats not what is in the paperdoll arc. Again youve made a fundamental change to the story by having them be married. Hence it doesnt work as is if they are married. You are telling a different story.

Having MJ and pete unmarried tells the story we have on the page.... Making them married tells a different story.... one in which a loving, supportive wife is now a cheating whore.

[ManofTheAtom]

One question as the story is a little fuzzy.

Who made the actual deal, MJ or Peter? I forget.

[JamesOliva]

Possibly but the movie works eitherway... much like the book did.... He does call himself "the devils bounty hunter" in the movie....

Agreed. Though one could debate whether or not Nicholas Cage actually worked in the movie...:wink:

[JamesOliva]

One question as the story is a little fuzzy.

Who made the actual deal, MJ or Peter? I forget.

Oh no...Not this again! :eek: :eek:

[ManofTheAtom]

Simply put because the story then changes and becomes about MJ cheating. Thats not what is in the paperdoll arc. Again youve made a fundamental change to the story by having them be married. Hence it doesnt work as is if they are married. You are telling a different story.

Having MJ and pete unmarried tells the story we have on the page.... Making them married tells a different story.... one in which a loving, supportive wife is now a cheating whore.
Not necessarily. In the scenario I propose they would be split up, living separate lives (Pete in the apartment with his new rommate the cop and MJ off in Hollywood or whatever).

Married doesn't necessarily mean "living together". There's tons of fiction, in comics, TV, movies, and elsewhere, of couples who are married and don't live together (the first season of Eureka comes to mind).

Just because they would still be married doesn't mean that they can't grow apart, go their separate way in different cities, start new relationships, and then realize that they don't want to be together anymore.

The issue at hand isn't that "MJ would be cheating", it's that Quesada doesn't want the word "divorce" hanging over Pete's head... aparently "sold his soul to the devil to get out of his marriage" sounded better to him, lol.

[ManofTheAtom]

Oh no...Not this again! :eek: :eek:
HAH!

Well, what's the answer?

[JamesOliva]

Not necessarily. In the scenario I propose they would be split up, living separate lives (Pete in the apartment with his new rommate the cop and MJ off in Hollywood or whatever).

Married doesn't necessarily mean "living together". There's tons of fiction, in comics, TV, movies, and elsewhere, of couples who are married and don't live together (the first season of Eureka comes to mind).

Just because they would still be married doesn't mean that they can't grow apart, go their separate way in different cities, start new relationships, and then realize that they don't want to be together anymore.

The issue at hand isn't that "MJ would be cheating", it's that Quesada doesn't want the word "divorce" hanging over Pete's head... aparently "soul his sold to the devil to get out of his marriage" ran better to him, lol.
Divorce wasn't on the table, especially after Fraction's annual which pretty much confirmed that they weren't splitting up unless they were "forced."

[ShaggyB]

Mephisto made a deal with Everett K Ross to buy his soul in exchange for a pair of pants. That sounds more like something he would do if he was bored.

Without some inherit importance to disrupting the union between Peter and MJ, bringing Mephisto into it just reeks of bad writing, you know?

As cliche as it sounds, even saying that he had to break them apart because some day in the future their offspring will kill him would at least give the story some semblance of logic, you know?

oh i agree. Mephisto as a character was a poor choice for the story. He acts almost completely out of character. The only thing he does right is sell the fact hes the devil when even pete knows hes not. Referencing "he who he hates most" as his reasoning is classic mephisto. the only problem is mephisto gains nothing but the sweet harmony of two tiny pieces of two souls crying out in pain over the loss that neither knows they have lost. Loki would have been a better story... hell peter trying to time travel via magic and accidentally messing up everything would have been better.

Unfortunately we got a Faustian story and we get to move on. Luckly the quality, my opinion, of the stories after OMD has been better than that, my opinion again, of the stories before..... but ive disliked ASM since the other...till BND started...




Heh. Again, you know better than me on this, heh.

Mephisto is a fun character... ive really always liked him... think it scared my mom a bit when i was a kid......




Got it.

cool cool

[ManofTheAtom]

Divorce wasn't on the table, especially after Fraction's annual which pretty much confirmed that they weren't splitting up unless they were "forced."
Remind me, what happened in the annual?

[ManofTheAtom]

oh i agree. Mephisto as a character was a poor choice for the story. He acts almost completely out of character. The only thing he does right is sell the fact hes the devil when even pete knows hes not. Referencing "he who he hates most" as his reasoning is classic mephisto. the only problem is mephisto gains nothing but the sweet harmony of two tiny pieces of two souls crying out in pain over the loss that neither knows they have lost. Loki would have been a better story... hell peter trying to time travel via magic and accidentally messing up everything would have been better.

Unfortunately we got a Faustian story and we get to move on. Luckly the quality, my opinion, of the stories after OMD has been better than that, my opinion again, of the stories before..... but ive disliked ASM since the other...till BND started...
l

Saying that the priest that married them was an escaped lunatic from the asylum and that their marriage was never valid would have been preferable to either Mephisto or Loki, heh. I'm just of the opinion that, since this is Spider-Man (the everyman superhero), there's no place for supernatural or God-like beings in his story, you know? (well, there's a place, but they shouldn't overshadow the everyman aspect, which is what Mephisto did).

Seriously, though, they can retcon it so that neither Harry nor Norman died because they had a Goblin serum in their blood but they can't retcon it so that the priest that married them was unlicensed or that the Puma killed the clerk before he filled the marriage license with the state, or some such nonense that makes it so that they were never legally married?

[ShaggyB]

HAH!

Well, what's the answer?

Pete lays on a guilt trip then asks MJ to decide. MJ calls him on the guilt trip and the asking her to decide

Pete decides he can let may go if he has mj. Mj asks if hes sure. Peter thinks then says yes. They hug for a day.

Mephisto comes. MJ says yes, to Peter's shock, but re-ups the deal MJ whipsers to Mephisto. Pete looks shocked as the clock ticks down. Mj begs him to be her hero and save may. He yells ARGGGG at the sky and then says Do It.

They both make the deal as it takes two.... but what do you think really happened?

[JamesOliva]

HAH!

Well, what's the answer?

Let's just say it's been debated here at length here

[ManofTheAtom]

Let's just say it's been debated here at length here
Heh, I'm sure it has

[ManofTheAtom]

Pete lays on a guilt trip then asks MJ to decide. MJ calls him on the guilt trip and the asking her to decide

Pete decides he can let may go if he has mj. Mj asks if hes sure. Peter thinks then says yes. They hug for a day.

Mephisto comes. MJ says yes, to Peter's shock, but re-ups the deal MJ whipsers to Mephisto. Pete looks shocked as the clock ticks down. Mj begs him to be her hero and save may. He yells ARGGGG at the sky and then says Do It.

They both make the deal as it takes two.... but what do you think really happened?

What I think is that the writers added the whisper as an out in case the stunt failed, which is what prompted my question about all the good stuff that's happened despite the fact that no deal with Mephisto has ever benefited the seller leading to another confrontation.

[Hertz]

Unfortunately we got a Faustian story and we get to move on. Luckly the quality, my opinion, of the stories after OMD has been better than that, my opinion again, of the stories before..... but ive disliked ASM since the other...till BND started...

Unless I'm mistaken, we haven't gotten a Faustian story yet until Pete and M.J. (as both took part in making the deal) conscionably (sp?) suffer from their actions (not just hypothetically in a small part of his soul) in making the deal and, are later able to redeem themselves. This assuming, of course, that my understanding on the story of Faust is correct.

[ManofTheAtom]

Unless I'm mistaken, we haven't gotten a Faustian story yet until Pete and M.J. (as both took part in making the deal) conscionably (sp?) suffer from their actions (not just hypothetically in a small part of his soul) in making the deal and, are later able to redeem themselves. This assuming, of course, that my understanding on the story of Faust is correct.
It's like we only got the first part of the story and are waiting for the other proverbial shoe to drop.

[JamesOliva]

Unless I'm mistaken, we haven't gotten a Faustian story yet until Pete and M.J. (as both took part in making the deal) conscionably (sp?) suffer from their actions (not just hypothetically in a small part of his soul) in making the deal and, are later able to redeem themselves. This assuming, of course, that my understanding on the story of Faust is correct.

Pretty much. Right now we're getting a William Blake story. "I sold my soul to the devil and life is great!":wink:

[ShaggyB]

Unless I'm mistaken, we haven't gotten a Faustian story yet until Pete and M.J. (as both took part in making the deal) conscionably (sp?) suffer from their actions (not just hypothetically in a small part of his soul) in making the deal and, are later able to redeem themselves. This assuming, of course, that my understanding on the story of Faust is correct.


Pretty much. Right now we're getting a William Blake story. "I sold my soul to the devil and life is great!":wink:

i stand corrected.... Half a faustian story or what James said....

[Jim Thompson]

Not necessarily. In the scenario I propose they would be split up, living separate lives (Pete in the apartment with his new rommate the cop and MJ off in Hollywood or whatever).

Married doesn't necessarily mean "living together". There's tons of fiction, in comics, TV, movies, and elsewhere, of couples who are married and don't live together (the first season of Eureka comes to mind).

Just because they would still be married doesn't mean that they can't grow apart, go their separate way in different cities, start new relationships, and then realize that they don't want to be together anymore.

The issue at hand isn't that "MJ would be cheating", it's that Quesada doesn't want the word "divorce" hanging over Pete's head... aparently "soul his soul to the devil to get out of his marriage" sounded better to him, lol.Nice post! :biggrin:

[celticguy]

Do people expect the deal to be undone at some point? I don't I think BND will be the standard for a long time to come.

[Jim Thompson]

Do people expect the deal to be undone at some point? I don't I think BND will be the standard for a long time to come.I don't -- and I give Marvel a lot of credit for this. Not everyone is going to agree with a decision of this magnitude, but they corporation has seemed to learn something from the way the Clone Saga was handled, and they are sticking to their guns and riding out the rough times.

I think they ought to get a lot of credit for that.

[ManofTheAtom]

Do people expect the deal to be undone at some point? I don't I think BND will be the standard for a long time to come.
The thing is that the deal hasn't resulted in anything other than in undoing the marriage and people forgetting Peter's unmasking.

For instance, Harry's return was a retcon that had nothing to do with the deal (that was directly connected to Norman's own return due to the Goblin serum during the Clone Saga), and from that retcon came the reconstruction of the Parker home.

[ManofTheAtom]

I don't -- and I give Marvel a lot of credit for this. Not everyone is going to agree with a decision of this magnitude, but they corporation has seemed to learn something from the way the Clone Saga was handled, and they are sticking to their guns and riding out the rough times.

I think they ought to get a lot of credit for that.
But why do it half-assed? And by half-assed I mean betraying the way Mephisto's character has been established to act (i.e. he'll buy your soul for a pair of pants) and the long-established "Parker Luck"

The combination of those two should have lead to something monumentually dark, not the piñata of good things that has befallen Peter over the last year.

[ManofTheAtom]

Nice post! :biggrin:
Thanks :).

[Jim Thompson]

But why do it half-assed? And by half-assed I mean betraying the way Mephisto's character has been established to act (i.e. he'll buy your soul for a pair of pants) and the long-established "Parker Luck"

The combination of those two should have lead to something monumentally dark, not the piñata of good things that has befallen Peter over the last year.Look, I didn't say I agreed with their decisions -- I'm just saying at least they have the minerals to see through on their plans.

[ManofTheAtom]

Look, I didn't say I agreed with their decisions -- I'm just saying at least they have the minerals to see through on their plans.

Well, give it time. A year isn't exactly long enough to definitely say that they'll stick with this for the long term. Any number of things could happen between now and whenever. A new eic could replace Quesada and demand a proper resolution to the mischaracterization of Mephisto and lack of negative repercutions.

[Jim Thompson]

Well, give it time. A year isn't exactly long enough to definitely say that they'll stick with this for the long term.True enough -- though I honestly don't see them changing course any time soon.

[ManofTheAtom]

True enough -- though I honestly don't see them changing course any time soon.
It probably depends on a different number of factors, mainly sales if they haven't improved from before OMD. It's also possible (don't know how likely) that how the stories are received will play a part of the decision making.

Is the quality of the stories better than before? More or less, there's still some rehashing of old plots, but overall there's been a general improvement.

The biggest shortcoming has been the genesis for the changes, the deal with the devil.

[RDMacQ]

It probably depends on a different number of factors, mainly sales if they haven't improved from before OMD. It's also possible (don't know how likely) that how the stories are received will play a part of the decision making.

Is the quality of the stories better than before? More or less, there's still some rehashing of old plots, but overall there's been a general improvement.

The biggest shortcoming has been the genesis for the changes, the deal with the devil.

That's a pretty basic, logical summation of things that have been going on in the past year or so in the Spider-Man books. While the stories coming out have been well told, there has also been a lot of rehashing of old plots. And while these are fondly remembered by some, they also come off as being tired and played out in other respects. I think that the stories told in the past year show a flaw in the argument of why Peter needs to be single, in that it is not a desire to open up the possibility of new stories but the desire to easily repeat older plot points that were previously well received years ago but could not have been part of the book with the status quo the way it was.

[ManofTheAtom]

That's a pretty basic, logical summation of things that have been going on in the past year or so in the Spider-Man books. While the stories coming out have been well told, there has also been a lot of rehashing of old plots. And while these are fondly remembered by some, they also come off as being tired and played out in other respects. I think that the stories told in the past year show a flaw in the argument of why Peter needs to be single, in that it is not a desire to open up the possibility of new stories but the desire to easily repeat older plot points that were previously well received years ago but could not have been part of the book with the status quo the way it was.
Agreed.

Pre OMD I saw many posts from many readers that claimed that if Pete were single he could date more and, as a result, the stories would be better.

Post OMD, he barely dates, and whatever good stories have been done in the last year did not hinge on his being single one bit.

[RDMacQ]

Agreed.

Pre OMD I saw many posts from many readers that claimed that if Pete were single he could date more and, as a result, the stories would be better.

Post OMD, he barely dates, and whatever good stories have been done in the last year did not hinge on his being single one bit.

Agreed, although there are those here that would argue differently.

Someone over on the Newsarama forum made a good point last week regarding Peter's marital status and how it "limited" the story possibilities. He pointed out that possibilities means more than one, and the only story option that the marriage prevented was the dating aspect. Everything else pretty much could remain the same.

This weekend I picked up some old issues of Marvel Team Up and the Roger Stern Visionaries Trade Paperback, and I have to tell you that the dating aspect wasn't that important to the stories told in those old issues. Usually it was to get Peter from point A to point B. The only point where dating was specifically addressed was when Peter was looking for a date to go with him to a function Aunt May was attending. However, if Peter was married this wouldn't be a big deal since he would just go with his wife.

I would argue that the simple reason that so many creators felt that Spider-Man's bachelorhood was so important is simply because it wasn't available to them. The only reason they wanted it is because they couldn't have it. Spider-Man had been single for years, and has had multiple female partners but those stories have been mostly forgotten or overlooked with most of the emphasis put on the MJ/ Gwen/ Peter love triangle. Its not that the creators probably want to recreate that relationship exactly, but they probably feel that they want to have that luxury open to them if they wanted to. Kinda like a packrat mentality of "I won't use that thing now, but I may one day so don't get rid of it."

None of the stories I read this weekend absolutely hinged on him being single, and could have easily have been told with a married Spider-Man with a few tweaks here and there. And to completely alter the universe simply to have one aspect of the mythos open to you, that hasn't been in the books for twenty years and to which the books have clearly shown that it can survive without it, comes across as recklessness and selfishness on behalf of the creators.