Joker's sexual orientation

[Player 0]

http://www.clownprinceofcrime.com/jokersex.html

Done before, but i've recently discovered a site that covers this in more detail, what you guys think?

[DeadXMan]

Batman's gay. Joker is a tease.:rolleyes: :wink:

[Jkid099]

I always liked the school of thought that the Joker didn't feel any sexual orientation or had any particular "type" to subscribe to at all. That he would act heterosexual / homosexual / etc. in any situation to just make others feel uncomfortable - that he would go to any extreme in any situation to elicit humor, whether it would be coming onto someone of the same sex but who was not homosexual and so forth.

[Augusto]

He was a knight in England before his travel to Italy where he was a womanizer. Then he came to America and he became into a gay cowboy before that chemical accident. http://www.smileyhut.com/silly/burp.gif (http://www.smileyhut.com)

Oh wait! I'm mixing movies again! http://www.smileyhut.com/silly/arrowhead.gif (http://www.smileyhut.com)

[OverMaster]

Autosexual - sexual interest in himself. This is a compelling idea. Joker only has sex because he loves himself. Harley Quinn right off the bat would fill this role since she worships him so much, sex with her could just be another form of autosexuality. He loves himself and Harley loves him so much he gets to see it reflected back at him. The consensual partners he has had have all been of the worshiping, codependent nature. Autosexuality may not be wrong.

I like this idea the best. Even his sexual teasing of Batman is born out of Joker's own view of Batman as a counterpart to himself.

[Nefarius]

He was a knight in England before his travel to Italy where he was a womanizer. Then he came to America and he became into a gay cowboy before that chemical accident. http://www.smileyhut.com/silly/burp.gif (http://www.smileyhut.com)

Oh wait! I'm mixing movies again! http://www.smileyhut.com/silly/arrowhead.gif (http://www.smileyhut.com)

LOL,i would love it as an elseworld origin.

[Maxwell Edison]

I hopen the boner page is on photobucket

[NickGuy]

I always thought it was a given that the joker was gay for batman.

[nepenthes]

I always liked the school of thought that the Joker didn't feel any sexual orientation or had any particular "type" to subscribe to at all. That he would act heterosexual / homosexual / etc. in any situation to just make others feel uncomfortable - that he would go to any extreme in any situation to elicit humor, whether it would be coming onto someone of the same sex but who was not homosexual and so forth.

repeat ad nasuem

:rolleyes:

[NickGuy]

I always liked the school of thought that the Joker didn't feel any sexual orientation or had any particular "type" to subscribe to at all. That he would act heterosexual / homosexual / etc. in any situation to just make others feel uncomfortable - that he would go to any extreme in any situation to elicit humor, whether it would be coming onto someone of the same sex but who was not homosexual and so forth.

So its all a big laugh to him? yeah....no.

I think having Joker be homosexual would add more layers to the character and make him more fun to write. I mean, some of the best Joker/batman interaction hinge on the homoerotic anyway. might as well come out of the closet.

[Alejandro]

He is not gay, he is obsessed. Anyways I thought he was asexual mostly but the autosexual thing seems the most accurate for me. I prefer to clasify him in "plain crazy" in pretty much all areas anyways xD.

[GRANT!]

Considering his personality changes he's probably tried everything. Like David Bowie or Caligula.

[thedevilsadvocate]

I always thought that Joker never limited himself to only one flavor of ice cream. He is so uninhibited so why not, I say?

There have been several cases where Joker indulges with both men and women and I like how that site isn't biased. Harley Quinn isn't the end all be all testament to his heterosexuality just like Batman isn't the end all be all testament to his homosexuality. The recent Joker novel gave me the impression that he has no real preferences and would easily do both sexes if it suited his mood.

In Devils Advocate, IIRC Batman was interogatting one of Joker's henchmen and one STRONGLY implied that they had something else going on. I also got that vibe from Joker's apprentice.

I also give Nickguy props. :wink:

[DanDunne]

Interesting, I brought this up on another forum once, asking whether the Joker was gay, and was shot down pretty quickly.

But the Joker's always made sense to me as being gay, a raving mad queen turned sour on the world, but losing none of the flamboyance.

[4thHorseman]

I think Joker is either attracted to everything, or nothing at all.

[Lew Moxon]

Considering how messed up the Joker is, I doubt he has anything resembling a healthy sexuality, he isn't simple gay or straight
It's probably a lot more complicated than that.

And since we are talking about fictional charectors, it varies from author to author.

Though, if I were writing him-If I had to reference this topic at all-I'd say he's a sadist with bisexual tendencies.

[jjdknight89]

ya thats great. make the most evil villian in the DC universe and turn him gay. see if that doesnt send gay groups into a frenzy.

[1WEBHEAD]

Say what you want, but I wouldn't want the Joker kissing another man unless it's ala Bugs Bunny.

[MikeCr]

And since we are talking about fictional characters, it varies from author to author.
Thank-you! And I would add "and reader to reader" to that as well.

[FortKnox]

Really could you image sex with the Joker must be like? The foreplay alone would you give physical and mental scars for life. And then the toys? *shudder*

[Lew Moxon]

Really could you image sex with the Joker must be like? The foreplay alone would you give physical and mental scars for life. And then the toys? *shudder*

There's only one person who wants to picture the Joker in the act-Harley Quinn.

[Brannon]

It doesn't matter, fanboys.

[flapjaxx]

that he would go to any extreme in any situation to elicit humor, whether it would be coming onto someone of the same sex but who was not homosexual and so forth.

Sure, but can anyone actually provide any examples of the Joker actually coming on to someone of the same sex? I don't think I've ever seen it, not anywhere near to the degree that I've seen him coming on to women. I'd note that talking cute or patronizingly to victims doesn't constitute foreplay. I remember many times when I was younger, in grade school, that bullies would talk to their victims the way mothers would talk to their sons, in order to patronize them. I don't think there's anything homosexual about that.

Granted, in "Dark Knight", for example, he tells Batman "You complete me". That's kind of gay, sure, but it's also true in the same way that Ahab and Moby-Dick (no pun intended!) "complete" each other. So if Ahab remarked (as many critics have) that Moby-Dick in a sense "completes" him, would that mean that Ahab wanted some whale sex??? Of course not! The Batman-Joker relationship is a large topic and an interesting issue; I think there's certainly room for queer theory to have *something* to say about it (especially because superheroes themselves, to varying degrees of success, can be interpreted at as erotic male fantasy), but... I don't think the relationship between Batman and Joker has, at root, much of anything to do with sex of any sort. Sex quite often has to do with POWER, though, and there're a lot of power dynamics involved in the Batman/Joker relationship. Since queer theory has a lot to say about power relationships, I think it could have some interesting things to say about Batman and the Joker, but only indirectly. Same way that queer theory can be applied to Shakespeare's Iago and Othello: Iago's obsessed with Othello, and this is an obsessive power relationship involving two men, so thus queer theory has some meaningful things to say about it. But that doesn't make Iago actually gay. Some might *interpret* Iago (who has a wife) as a closet homosexual, and they're free to do that, but that's really just an *interpretation*, and one that's not based on all that much.

I'm reminded again of "The Dark Knight", probably because I watched it again recently. The Joker at Wayne's apartment struts up to Maggie G.'s character, slicks his hair back and proceeds to flirt in a threatening manner: "Well hell-o, beautiful". So. Does the Joker ever, anywhere else, strut up to a MALE character in the same manner and say "Well hello, handsome"? I can't remember that at all. Ever. Ever!

That's not to say that the Batman writers aren't "responsible" for him not exploring a potential homosexual side of the Joker. We are, after all, talking about a fictional character, not a real person. But just because someone has cross-dressed a couple times doesn't mean he's gay (ask Rudy Guilianni!). So I think that there are definitely fertile creative avenues for there to be a more gay Joker, or a Joker who isn't, at root, more or less heterosexual (ahem, he has had, y'know, a wife and a girlfriend, and that's worth *something*). But these alternative, gay avenues haven't really been pursued. They just haven't. Instead, what I think is pretty apparent is that this guy is a heterosexual who's so screwed up mentally that he's long since given up much of the semblance of realistic relationships of any sort, period.

[thedevilsadvocate]

Sure, but can anyone actually provide any examples of the Joker actually coming on to someone of the same sex? I don't think I've ever seen it, not anywhere near to the degree that I've seen him coming on to women. I'd note that talking cute or patronizingly to victims doesn't constitute foreplay. I remember many times when I was younger, in grade school, that bullies would talk to their victims the way mothers would talk to their sons, in order to patronize them. I don't think there's anything homosexual about that.

Granted, in "Dark Knight", for example, he tells Batman "You complete me". That's kind of gay, sure, but it's also true in the same way that Ahab and Moby-Dick (no pun intended!) "complete" each other. So if Ahab remarked (as many critics have) that Moby-Dick in a sense "completes" him, would that mean that Ahab wanted some whale sex??? Of course not! The Batman-Joker relationship is a large topic and an interesting issue; I think there's certainly room for queer theory to have *something* to say about it (especially because superheroes themselves, to varying degrees of success, can be interpreted at as erotic male fantasy), but... I don't think the relationship between Batman and Joker has, at root, much of anything to do with sex of any sort. Sex quite often has to do with POWER, though, and there're a lot of power dynamics involved in the Batman/Joker relationship. Since queer theory has a lot to say about power relationships, I think it could have some interesting things to say about Batman and the Joker, but only indirectly. Same way that queer theory can be applied to Shakespeare's Iago and Othello: Iago's obsessed with Othello, and this is an obsessive power relationship involving two men, so thus queer theory has some meaningful things to say about it. But that doesn't make Iago actually gay. Some might *interpret* Iago (who has a wife) as a closet homosexual, and they're free to do that, but that's really just an *interpretation*, and one that's not based on all that much.

I'm reminded again of "The Dark Knight", probably because I watched it again recently. The Joker at Wayne's apartment struts up to Maggie G.'s character, slicks his hair back and proceeds to flirt in a threatening manner: "Well hell-o, beautiful". So. Does the Joker ever, anywhere else, strut up to a MALE character in the same manner and say "Well hello, handsome"? I can't remember that at all. Ever. Ever!

That's not to say that the Batman writers aren't "responsible" for him not exploring a potential homosexual side of the Joker. We are, after all, talking about a fictional character, not a real person. But just because someone has cross-dressed a couple times doesn't mean he's gay (ask Rudy Guilianni!). So I think that there are definitely fertile creative avenues for there to be a more gay Joker, or a Joker who isn't, at root, more or less heterosexual (ahem, he has had, y'know, a wife and a girlfriend, and that's worth *something*). But these alternative, gay avenues haven't really been pursued. They just haven't. Instead, what I think is pretty apparent is that this guy is a heterosexual who's so screwed up mentally that he's long since given up much of the semblance of realistic relationships of any sort, period.

I smell bias. :rolleyes:

On one hand you downplay the possible aspects of Joker having gay thoughts as merely him being colorful and yet pay no mind to Joker 'coming on' to the ladies? Who is to say that when Joker was coming onto Rachel was just him trying to rattle her? I was reading the Devil's Advocate the other day and there was a reference to Joker and his henchman. Outside of him calling Batman pet names, that was concrete evidence of Joker's homosexuality, however, that doesn't mean Joker is strictly homosexual. As I stated, Joker doesn't limit himself to one flavor of ice cream. Your comment above states that and I disagree. At best, Joker is omnisexual (but yet, I have yet to see evidence of him doing it with animals).

Joker ultimately doesn' limit himself to anything. It downplays the character as having specific set points. This is a problem I have with die hard Harley Quinn fans who defend her as his one true love (barf!).

[celticguy]

And since we are talking about fictional charectors, it varies from author to author.

Though, if I were writing him-If I had to reference this topic at all-I'd say he's a sadist with bisexual tendencies.


true he certainly was not gat in ASB&R

If he is gay is Harley his beard?

[jgiannantoni05]

It's this simple to me: Before becoming Joker, he was probably hetero (as per Going Sane). After becoming Joker, he became non-sexual.
________
Volcano digital vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/volcano-vaporizer)

[ElephantMan]

ya thats great. make the most evil villian in the DC universe and turn him gay. see if that doesnt send gay groups into a frenzy.

Yep, I can see the queer outrage coming in angry post after angry post. And before I am flamed, I am gay so I can use that word!:wink:

I think of Joker as the type to get off on sadism, regardless of the victim's gender. But I mean hardcore sadism, not the kind with a willing partner.

He would not like it if the victim was a masochist (enjoyed it).

[Augusto]

This kind of discussions makes me wonder:

What would have said Bob Kane and Bill Finger?

[NickGuy]

true he certainly was not gat in ASB&R

If he is gay is Harley his beard?

ASBAR never finished....but if you look at the joker in DKR, he was gay for batman...calling him darling...the line "I dont keep count, but you do...and I love you for it"...and the fight ending in a very sexual way...Joker stabbing batman repeatedly with the knife "in and out"...the fact that the fight ends in the tunnel of love and is very climactic...Batman is exhausted when its done...theres homoeroticism ALL OVER that shit.

[NickGuy]

Interesting, I brought this up on another forum once, asking whether the Joker was gay, and was shot down pretty quickly.

But the Joker's always made sense to me as being gay, a raving mad queen turned sour on the world, but losing none of the flamboyance.

I also agree with this, it just makes more sense for him to be gay...or at least bi. and it opens up a TON of more storytelling opportunities.

[lou-bert vs. q-bert]

Considering how messed up the Joker is, I doubt he has anything resembling a healthy sexuality, he isn't simple gay or straight
It's probably a lot more complicated than that..That's a reasonable explanation. Joker is a kind of like psychotic The Todd from Scrubs.

[celticguy]

ASBAR never finished....but if you look at the joker in DKR, he was gay for batman...calling him darling...the line "I dont keep count, but you do...and I love you for it"...and the fight ending in a very sexual way...Joker stabbing batman repeatedly with the knife "in and out"...the fact that the fight ends in the tunnel of love and is very climactic...Batman is exhausted when its done...theres homoeroticism ALL OVER that shit.

stabbing is a gay thing now? I did not know.

[IamBATFAN]

Someone brought up Bugs Bunny, and that was my first thought when i saw this topic title, i dont think the Joker is gay, bi or anything like that, he's just crazy, and in the toons you would see Bugs dress up as a chick for the gag, and i think the Joker is the same way, he does it because it's in his character, he does it for control of the situation.

[celticguy]

So would bugs bunny and Joker get it on?

[OverMaster]

So would bugs bunny and Joker get it on?

Only if Bugs gets to wear a Harley Quinn costume.

Which would happen anyway.

[tangentman]

According to the Piper's "coming out" story in The Flash (early 90's), Joker is NOT gay. Piper debunked Wally's theory that a guy like Joker must surely be gay.

[thedevilsadvocate]

true he certainly was not gat in ASB&R

If he is gay is Harley his beard?

No, she's his f*g hag. :cool: Damn, just saying that, then she really is ****ed up!

[thedevilsadvocate]

ASBAR never finished....but if you look at the joker in DKR, he was gay for batman...calling him darling...the line "I dont keep count, but you do...and I love you for it"...and the fight ending in a very sexual way...Joker stabbing batman repeatedly with the knife "in and out"...the fact that the fight ends in the tunnel of love and is very climactic...Batman is exhausted when its done...theres homoeroticism ALL OVER that shit.

:eek:

I totally missed the stabbing!

[NickGuy]

stabbing is a gay thing now? I did not know.

No, Mr Snide, it is not, but the way it was described...and the fact that it was happening in the tunnel of love...it was no accident.

[joku2]

Joker is straight , why else would he have quinn around when he did

[Lew Moxon]

To those focusing on the Dark Knight Returns, all you are proving is that Frank Miller's Joker is possibly gay. (I see it as more of a obsessional thing but to each his own.) And a few other writers might think the same thing.

But, what if anything would be gained if we forced every single writer to consider him the same way? Is it at all essential to the figure? No.

Alan Moore's perspective of the Joker as seeing the world as a meaningless Joke in which random violence was as good a response as any, did add to the figure.

But I can't think of single thing a defintively gay Joker would add to things. It would simply hamstring authors, and little else.

If a writer wants to write the Joker as gay, let him.
If a writer wants him to be straight, fine.

If a writer doesn't want to talk about it at all-fine.

His sexuality is simply not an important enough element of who the Joker is-for it to be definitively determined one way or the other.

[thedevilsadvocate]

Joker is straight , why else would he have quinn around when he did

To pick up his underwear and make him his dinner. :rolleyes:

[dancj]

As far as I'm aware, Joker's never had a thing for Quinn. She's had a thing for him.

[nepenthes]

Sure, but can anyone actually provide any examples of the Joker actually coming on to someone of the same sex? I don't think I've ever seen it, not anywhere near to the degree that I've seen him coming on to women. I'd note that talking cute or patronizingly to victims doesn't constitute foreplay. I remember many times when I was younger, in grade school, that bullies would talk to their victims the way mothers would talk to their sons, in order to patronize them. I don't think there's anything homosexual about that.

Granted, in "Dark Knight", for example, he tells Batman "You complete me". That's kind of gay, sure, but it's also true in the same way that Ahab and Moby-Dick (no pun intended!) "complete" each other. So if Ahab remarked (as many critics have) that Moby-Dick in a sense "completes" him, would that mean that Ahab wanted some whale sex??? Of course not! The Batman-Joker relationship is a large topic and an interesting issue; I think there's certainly room for queer theory to have *something* to say about it (especially because superheroes themselves, to varying degrees of success, can be interpreted at as erotic male fantasy), but... I don't think the relationship between Batman and Joker has, at root, much of anything to do with sex of any sort. Sex quite often has to do with POWER, though, and there're a lot of power dynamics involved in the Batman/Joker relationship. Since queer theory has a lot to say about power relationships, I think it could have some interesting things to say about Batman and the Joker, but only indirectly. Same way that queer theory can be applied to Shakespeare's Iago and Othello: Iago's obsessed with Othello, and this is an obsessive power relationship involving two men, so thus queer theory has some meaningful things to say about it. But that doesn't make Iago actually gay. Some might *interpret* Iago (who has a wife) as a closet homosexual, and they're free to do that, but that's really just an *interpretation*, and one that's not based on all that much.

I'm reminded again of "The Dark Knight", probably because I watched it again recently. The Joker at Wayne's apartment struts up to Maggie G.'s character, slicks his hair back and proceeds to flirt in a threatening manner: "Well hell-o, beautiful". So. Does the Joker ever, anywhere else, strut up to a MALE character in the same manner and say "Well hello, handsome"? I can't remember that at all. Ever. Ever!

That's not to say that the Batman writers aren't "responsible" for him not exploring a potential homosexual side of the Joker. We are, after all, talking about a fictional character, not a real person. But just because someone has cross-dressed a couple times doesn't mean he's gay (ask Rudy Guilianni!). So I think that there are definitely fertile creative avenues for there to be a more gay Joker, or a Joker who isn't, at root, more or less heterosexual (ahem, he has had, y'know, a wife and a girlfriend, and that's worth *something*). But these alternative, gay avenues haven't really been pursued. They just haven't. Instead, what I think is pretty apparent is that this guy is a heterosexual who's so screwed up mentally that he's long since given up much of the semblance of realistic relationships of any sort, period.

this post nails it imo.

Just because he a flamboyant character, just because he likes to mock and tease and flaunt societys laws (including cross dressing) it doesn't mean there needs to be a question of his sexuality. and true there is a certain vibe in DKR, but that never struck me as physcial attraction at all, and that to me is the prime indicator of gayness, that you wanna nail a dude. merely being obsessive or symbiotic with another man however, i'm not sure that neccersarily has to be homo. So I agree that the the treament of Jokers sexuality in the comics has been pretty vanilla so far and that these internet discussions are just over analysis/hypothesis/reaction. Bruce and Robin though, now that's another story :wink:

[Keehar]

Have any of you read 'Going Sane'?

Joker falls in love with a woman in that after he 'reforms' when he thinks Batman is dead.

[thedevilsadvocate]

Joker is definitely straight. He has a thing for Quinn!!

Only in your mind, fanboy. :rolleyes: Give me evidence when Joker at least had some semblance of wanting to ride Harley like a pony. From what I have seen, Joker finds that Harley has all the hotness of a pig with lipstick.

[thedevilsadvocate]

Have any of you read 'Going Sane'?

Joker falls in love with a woman in that after he 'reforms' when he thinks Batman is dead.


Repeat after me: BISEXUAL.

[Lew Moxon]

Repeat after me: BISEXUAL.

Wait-what are you arguing exactly? Prior to this statement I thought your position was that the Joker was completely homosexual, with absolutley no attraction towards woman at all.

Therefore the statement that he is bisexual confuses me

Also, the Joker is not a real person. He is a fictional figure who has been written by many different writers all with different viewpoints.

And as such-he has no clearly defined sexuality. It depends on the writer.

We all have a version of the Joker floating around in our heads-how we would write him if given the chance.

That doesn't make that version definitive for anyone else.

[Keehar]

Repeat after me: BISEXUAL.

Repeat after me: STRAIGHT

His Killing Joke origin also had him married and in love with a woman, who was pregnant with his baby. She was also referenced several times in Hush Returns, too. In fact she's a big plot element in that.

[NickGuy]

To those focusing on the Dark Knight Returns, all you are proving is that Frank Miller's Joker is possibly gay. .


wait for it...wait for it...

yep! thats about the dumbest thing ive read this thread.

frank millers joker? Is he not just a writer, as is grant morrison and whoever else writes joker? frank millers take on joker is just as valid as neil gaiman or alan moore or whoever else writes batman. it is part of batman lore.

now whoever mentioned the dark knight and joker in the penthouse...how about earlier in the movie when he was comforting the guy he had gagged who was screaming? joker was cooing at him and shhing him and patting his cheek tenderly.

I dont see why its such a big deal if joker is gay for batman...it doesnt make him any less of a great character.

[NickGuy]

Repeat after me: STRAIGHT

His Killing Joke origin also had him married and in love with a woman, who was pregnant with his baby. She was also referenced several times in Hush Returns, too. In fact she's a big plot element in that.

he could have a wife and everything but still be gay for batman. that wouldnt take away the fact that he likes women, but batman could be his "guy I'd go gay for"

[Augusto]

now whoever mentioned the dark knight and joker in the penthouse...how about earlier in the movie when he was comforting the guy he had gagged who was screaming? joker was cooing at him and shhing him and patting his cheek tenderly.



And you are taking it too far. The Joker could be gay or bi or whatever. But he's a CLOWN (or at least a resemblance) and clowns are allowed to do that.

And if I do that with my friends in a mocking way, it doesn't mean I'm gay.

And from a sadistic point of view, if you do that to your victim, he will lower his defenses and will scream louder and the gesture in his face would be priceless.

A sadistic clown, who will do anything he can to make you feel uncomfortable.

[NickGuy]

yeah, but my point is that theres nothing wrong with the joker being bi, and i dont understand why so many people are so resistant to that. Like I said before, IMO it makes the character MORE interesting.

[Augusto]

yeah, but my point is that theres nothing wrong with the joker being bi, and i dont understand why so many people are so resistant to that. Like I said before, IMO it makes the character MORE interesting.
And I don't have it either. But I'll need more "explicit" proof to accept it.

[40footwolf]

He's whatever sexual orientation Bugs Bunny is.

[OverMaster]

He's whatever sexual orientation Bugs Bunny is.

Elmersexual?

[Keehar]

he could have a wife and everything but still be gay for batman. that wouldnt take away the fact that he likes women, but batman could be his "guy I'd go gay for"

He could also like to dress up in women's clothing, or play Super Mario Bros on the Super Nintendo. But we've not seen that. And we've seen no firm proof that he's gay for Batman or anyone other man either.

So I'm sticking with the ample evidence that he is straight.

[heffison]

According to the Piper's "coming out" story in The Flash (early 90's), Joker is NOT gay. Piper debunked Wally's theory that a guy like Joker must surely be gay.

Do I really want to know what Wally's reasoning was on this?


When the Joker had his own title, he fell in love with Black Canary (or maybe Dinah) and Green Arrow had to rescue her. He had apparently moved on by the next issue.

I'd go with "too messed up to have one" for Joker's orientation.

[thedevilsadvocate]

Wait-what are you arguing exactly? Prior to this statement I thought your position was that the Joker was completely homosexual, with absolutley no attraction towards woman at all.

No, I said that Joker doesn't limit himself to one flavor ice cream. This is the third time I have stated this. Clearly, there is evidence that Joker has a history with women (Jeannie, Rebecca, Harley) but I am not going to deny that he has a mancrush on Bats, plus let's not forget that anonymous henchman in Devil's advocate.

Therefore the statement that he is bisexual confuses me

Why should it? Bisexual means that one has a sexual interest in men and women and since there is evidence of Joker indulging with both (but more explicit with women), that means he swings both ways. He could be pansexual but I think limiting himself to straight OR GAY is very limiting since he is a very uninhibited character. As I said, Harley or Batman are the end all be all examples to his sexuality.

Also, the Joker is not a real person. He is a fictional figure who has been written by many different writers all with different viewpoints.

And as such-he has no clearly defined sexuality. It depends on the writer.

We all have a version of the Joker floating around in our heads-how we would write him if given the chance.

That doesn't make that version definitive for anyone else.[/QUOTE]

Also, the Joker is not a real person.

Neither is Batman and yet I see people creaming/throwing things about the comics.

He is a fictional figure who has been written by many different writers all with different viewpoints.

Duh.

And as such-he has no clearly defined sexuality. It depends on the writer.


Of course, but that doesn't mean that the character has no consistency. Also, that last comment for me reads like a last ditch effort to block out elements of the character that you may not like. I am not trying to be combative here, just pointing out what I have noticed over the years. Obviously one writer will focus on one element (be it sexuality or how violent the Joker is) versus any other writer BUT if it's a theme that's carried on and even debated and brought to question at conventions then yes, I do think that it's a part of the character's personality. Never did I say that Joker was strictly gay and if I did, it was to point out to the little children at how shallow their thinking was. He's a very uninhibited character.

We all have a version of the Joker floating around in our heads-how we would write him if given the chance.

Yawn.

That doesn't make that version definitive for anyone else.

Getting old here.

[thedevilsadvocate]

Repeat after me: STRAIGHT

His Killing Joke origin also had him married and in love with a woman, who was pregnant with his baby. She was also referenced several times in Hush Returns, too. In fact she's a big plot element in that.

Preaching to the choir here. You're more than welcome to your biases but don't sugarcoat versions of the character that you don't like just because it isn't your cup of tea.

[thedevilsadvocate]

wait for it...wait for it...

yep! thats about the dumbest thing ive read this thread.

frank millers joker? Is he not just a writer, as is grant morrison and whoever else writes joker? frank millers take on joker is just as valid as neil gaiman or alan moore or whoever else writes batman. it is part of batman lore.

now whoever mentioned the dark knight and joker in the penthouse...how about earlier in the movie when he was comforting the guy he had gagged who was screaming? joker was cooing at him and shhing him and patting his cheek tenderly.

I dont see why its such a big deal if joker is gay for batman...it doesnt make him any less of a great character.

Agreed. It's not just Miller and Morrison. Chuck Dixon played with it, Kevin Smith touched upon it and even Nolan himself more or less played with it. Hello, 'you complete me'? Outside of DKR, that has got to be one of the most slashy things Joker has said.

[thedevilsadvocate]

He could also like to dress up in women's clothing, or play Super Mario Bros on the Super Nintendo. But we've not seen that. And we've seen no firm proof that he's gay for Batman or anyone other man either.

So I'm sticking with the ample evidence that he is straight.


You're oversimplifying the character with your biases. I will go with an asexual Joker before he is strictly labeled as straight.

[Keehar]

Preaching to the choir here. You're more than welcome to your biases but don't sugarcoat versions of the character that you don't like just because it isn't your cup of tea.

No biases. Just common sense based on the evidence from the comics. If there's anyone with bias, it's you. You've been verbally combatting everyone who does not share your OPINION.

You're the one who's adamant about this to the point that you'll accept no other possible explanations except your own biased view, and you laughably accuse everyone else of being biased.

Pot, kettle, and black spring to mind here :biggrin:

[Schornforce]

The 'autosexual' label seems most fitting to comic book Joker. He's such an egomaniac. When he's sane, though, he's straight. Otherwise, it's all about himself!

[joint venture]

Autosexual.

Raccoon, Ms. Universe, a seal, even a guy. Insanity IS insanity.
So whatever proves to be worth the time at the moment and serves it's purpose should be his usual door.

Before going nuts? STRAIGHT. You can go weird once you have a set of values, not after. So he had a life yes, HAD.

[NickGuy]

And I don't have it either. But I'll need more "explicit" proof to accept it.

oh were going to play that game? ok....

well heres my first evidence....Joker calling him Darling repeatedly.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l48/NickGuy_2006/Scan0005-14.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l48/NickGuy_2006/Scan0003-25.jpg

Joker saying "I love you" to Batman

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l48/NickGuy_2006/Scan0002-33.jpg

and the climactic, sexually charged fight in the tunnel of love...

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l48/NickGuy_2006/Scan0004-20.jpg

I was wrong about batman saying the in and out comment...but the sound effects let you know that joker is stabbing him repeatedly...now knowing how joker feels about batman this could be Jokers "fucking" him. I mean, look at the knife and hand placement in panel 3. you cant tell me thats accidental. Hes getting what hes always wanted in a way.

The notion that all Joker wants to do is get batman to turn to the dark side has been explored before...hell its the whole theme of the joker in TDK....well, now that people think that Batman is a killer, Joker is satisfied...hes "spent"...he can relax and finally die, now that hes cursed batman...hes ruined him...although he knows the truth.

[OverMaster]

The 'autosexual' label seems most fitting to comic book Joker. He's such an egomaniac. When he's sane, though, he's straight. Otherwise, it's all about himself!

Yeah.When pointing the 'Going Sane' and 'Killing Joke flashbacks' examples, people needs to remember that 'sane' guy (and I use that term warily since in both cases the madness was bubbling under the surface ready to explode, from 'Jack's' crying to his wife to the scene with 'Joe Kerr' hopping like a rabbit) is a totally different person from the usual Joker.

[Crimson Knightman]

The problem with analyzing the Joker's sexuality is that it's being analyzed through the means of logic and that contradicts the Joker's character who derives on the opposite. The Joker is in his own world and in that world, he plays by his own rules and those rules are meant to be completely alien from ours. Meaning that the rules inherently have definitions that in which pertains to what the Joker wants to them to mean, so what may be gay to you may not be gay to him or what may be straight to you may not be straight to him. To the Joker, gay and straight may be more alike than different, after all it's his world and theoretically you're not supposed to get a clear and concise picture of who and what he is because he's insane.

Denny O Neil once said that Batman shifts his sexual drive in place of the mission in an attempt to stay focused and I believe that the Joker has used the same method. Like Batman, the Joker's greatest love is fulfilling his mission only it's polar opposite to Batman's and that is what attracts the Joker to Batman because their beliefs are such a contrast that they were made for one another from an adversarial standpoint.

[jgiannantoni05]

I'm fine with the autosexual label, except for one thing...the "sexual" part. Traditionally canon comic Joker really doesn't engage in sexual activity (while being Joker, not his Going Sane other self). He's too obsessed with feuding with Batman.

So, all I might agree on, is that Joker would be autosexual if he did sexual things.

the Joker's greatest love is fulfilling his mission, only it's polar opposite to Batman's, and that is what attracts the Joker to Batman because their beliefs are such a contrast that they were made for one another from an adversarial standpoint.
Exactly.
________
Silver surfer vaporizer (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/silver-surfer)

[Augusto]

oh were going to play that game? ok....

well heres my first evidence....Joker calling him Darling repeatedly.

Joker saying "I love you" to Batman

and the climactic, sexually charged fight in the tunnel of love...

I was wrong about batman saying the in and out comment...but the sound effects let you know that joker is stabbing him repeatedly...now knowing how joker feels about batman this could be Jokers "fucking" him. I mean, look at the knife and hand placement in panel 3. you cant tell me thats accidental. Hes getting what hes always wanted in a way.

The notion that all Joker wants to do is get batman to turn to the dark side has been explored before...hell its the whole theme of the joker in TDK....well, now that people think that Batman is a killer, Joker is satisfied...hes "spent"...he can relax and finally die, now that hes cursed batman...hes ruined him...although he knows the truth.

There's no game to play.

What makes you think I haven't read DKR??

Then Michael Corleone is gay when he said Fredo broke his heart?

Then I can't say "i love you" to my friends because that's enough proof I'm gay?

Then If any male plays with a banana or any "falic" item, it makes him gay?

Then any psycho running the streets and stabbing, repeatedly, his victim, is gay?

And you are taking as "a proof" DKR, which is basically, an elseworld?

Besides, if it were because of Frank Miller, nobody would like Superman.

Frank Miller does that. He writes about perverts. Xerxes has something in 300. Sin City is full of those. Bullseye and Daredevil (B. killed Elektra, his rival?)

You are like a conspiracy believer. Any loose data will fit in your beliefs.
You are reading so much between lines. You are seeing what's not there and making assumptions.

There's no game. You will have to make it better.

[satchmo the dragon]

Who is tetch the midget?

[satchmo the dragon]

There's no game to play.

What makes you think I haven't read DKR??

Then Michael Corleone is gay when he said Fredo broke his heart?

Then I can't say "i love you" to my friends because that's enough proof I'm gay?

Then If any male plays with a banana or any "falic" item, it makes him gay?

Then any psycho running the streets and stabbing, repeatedly, his victim, is gay?

And you are taking as "a proof" DKR, which is basically, an elseworld?

Besides, if it were because of Frank Miller, nobody would like Superman.

Frank Miller does that. He writes about perverts. Xerxes has something in 300. Sin City is full of those. Bullseye and Daredevil (B. killed Elektra, his rival?)

You are like a conspiracy believer. Any loose data will fit in your beliefs.
You are reading so much between lines. You are seeing what's not there and making assumptions.

There's no game. You will have to make it better.
It's true that Frank Miller likes to put in gay undertones in all his works, but you could say that later writers of Batman and the Joker decided to pick up on it and use it, so it is worth discussing, the fact is no one knows exactly what makes the Joker tick, which is why he is a fascinating villain, and one of the reasons Heath Ledger's performance as him is so spellbounding.

[NickGuy]

There's no game to play.

What makes you think I haven't read DKR??

I had assumed you already had...which was why i thought it was ridiculous that you asked for proof when I mentioned it.

Then Michael Corleone is gay when he said Fredo broke his heart?

Then I can't say "i love you" to my friends because that's enough proof I'm gay?

that is a totally different context and you know it. you arent trying to kill your friends. that comparison is invalid. the relationship between you and your friends is not the same as with joker and bats



well its a sexual reference. the fact that Joker is doing it to batman, another male, is what makes it gay.

[quote]Then any psycho running the streets and stabbing, repeatedly, his victim, is gay?

the act of stabbing itself isnt gay. the way it is used here is a clear euphemism for sex.

And you are taking as "a proof" DKR, which is basically, an elseworld?

who the fuck cares if its elseworld? get off that shit. whether or not its elseworld, the character is portrayed as having a man crush on batman. someone mentioned it earlier in this thread too, that other writers have played with the idea.

You are like a conspiracy believer. Any loose data will fit in your beliefs.
You are reading so much between lines. You are seeing what's not there and making assumptions.

well, considering what Ive read in millers many interviews, I get the feeling that nothing he does is accidental. you arent giving him enough credit.

[lonewolf23k]

Clearly, Joker isn't sexual at all. His insanity has made him so completly dysfunctional in that aspect that he doesn't even think of sexuality beyond using it for humor. Instead, the impulse to kill and terrify has completly replaced his sex drive.

[NickGuy]

Clearly, Joker isn't sexual at all. His insanity has made him so completly dysfunctional in that aspect that he doesn't even think of sexuality beyond using it for humor. Instead, the impulse to kill and terrify has completly replaced his sex drive.

care to show examples of this?

[Augusto]

who the fuck cares if its elseworld? get off that shit. whether or not its elseworld, the character is portrayed as having a man crush on batman. someone mentioned it earlier in this thread too, that other writers have played with the idea.

.

I care, mostly because he doesn't respect Superman. He made it a puppett. He thrashed a symbol of real heroism. Just like thrashing Captain America: You don't do that.

But you dismisseded my other examples. Miller may justify what he did in DKR, but how he justifies 300, Sin City and Daredevil?

[NickGuy]

300, Sin City and Daredevil?

whats wrong with those?

[the goddamn batman]

...man, this thread? Jeez.

[Augusto]

whats wrong with those?
Frank Miller using Xerxes as big, gay pimp?
Pervets in Sin City. Bullseye behavior and stabbing Elektra, I could say his rival for Daredevil's love.

What I mean is Frank Miller uses a sexual context in his writings, and most of the times as a villain trait.

...man, this thread? Jeez.

Don't be shy. You're not like that!

Come on! share your opinion with us.

[the goddamn batman]

I don't have an opinion on Joker's sexual orientation because he's a fictional character and I've got more important things to think about.

Also, I've never taken his obsession with batman as being at all sexual.

Also also, I've no interest in your trendy rally against Frank Miller.

[ScottyQuick]

I don't have an opinion on Joker's sexual orientation because he's a fictional character and I've got more important things to think about.

Really? You think talking about the Joker's sexuality is a waste of time, but talking about how badly Tara Reid isn't?

[Augusto]

Really? You think talking about the Joker's sexuality is a waste of time, but talking about how badly Tara Reid isn't?

Tara Reid isn't a fictional character :wink:

[heffison]

who the fuck cares if its elseworld? get off that shit. whether or not its elseworld, the character is portrayed as having a man crush on batman. someone mentioned it earlier in this thread too, that other writers have played with the idea.


Actually, an Elseworld story would be the perfect place to do a "what if Joker (or any other character) was gay?" story because it wouldn't have to apply to the character in main continuity. It could always be written into the main DCU later on, but isn't automatically part of the "true" story of the character.

I haven't read every Joker story by a long shot, but what I have seen looks like he is too busy being crazy to have a true sexual identity. Everything he does to someone else is to get the reaction he wants from them, to amuse himself.

[the goddamn batman]

Really? You think talking about the Joker's sexuality is a waste of time, but talking about how badly Tara Reid isn't?

I've dedicated as much time to both topics. But yeah, man, way to call me out.

And, seriously, I think people destroying themselves is more interesting than debating the supposed 'sexuality' of a fictional character with people who actually care about that sort of thing. But maybe that's just me.