CBR: NYCC LIVE: Batman - Battle for the Cowl Panel

[CBR News]

CBR continues its live coverage of New York Comic Con with DC's Battle for the Cowl panel. Check back here from 12:15-1:15 EST for regular updates.


Full article here (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=19916).

[AlistairCrane]

If you're at the panel, I IMPLORE you, ask about their plans for Selina Kyle this year!

Edit: It looks as though she may be appearing in the just-announced Gotham City Sirens!

[AlistairCrane]

So the eight Bat-books in June are:

Batman
Detective Comics
Outsiders
Batman and Robin
Batman: Streets of Gotham
Gotham City Sirens
Batgirl
Red Robin

[elias_A]

If Batgirl is written by you-know-who I'll scream.

[Tomacatawata]

Red Robin better be Jason Todd. I'll buy five of each issues just to support a Jason Todd title even if he's in a coustume I hate and not in that awesome Red Hood one.

[FemGeek]

Huh, so there will be a Batgirl title, after Didio said he wouldn't take fans requests seriously after poor mini sales. This better not be a trick, and it better be Cass. And Babs will be remaining as Oracle. No one asked will she walk again? Gotham City Sirens sounds promising, I might give that a go.
All in all, some good info and teases, but without any big spoilers.

[Retro315]

I think the biggest news in there is that Rucka can't keep himself from using the Gotham Central cast in 'Tec. That's kind of what I've been wanting to see out of Detective Comics ... more detectives!

Batman, Batwoman, Gotham Central, now is it too much to hope we see Riddler and the other Gotham "Private Eyes" getting in on the crime-solving as well?

EDIT: I could definitely see Gotham City Sirens being Dini's new spot as well ... Catwoman, Zatanna, the new Ventriloquist, Ivy, Harley ... Dini's always had a great handle on the Gotham ladies.

[the goddamn batman]

And Babs will be remaining as Oracle. No one asked will she walk again?

"Feel free to pick up 'Oracle: the Cure'" I wonder what they're curing...?

Or is it a Robert Smith team-up?

[Alexx1]

Birds of Prey in "Battle?" "Yeah," Daniel said, adding that they would play a pretty big role in the series.



Well this is terrific. But my question is will Birds of Prey be featured in any of these eight books to be released in June? The only place I can really see it being is Gotham City Sirens.

[Alexx1]

"Feel free to pick up 'Oracle: the Cure'" I wonder what they're curing...?

Or is it a Robert Smith team-up?

I think it has something to do with Calculator and not a "cure" for Babs perse. Who knows with DC though.

[FemGeek]

I think it has something to do with Calculator and not a "cure" for Babs perse. Who knows with DC though.

I do find it a little hard to trust DC these days. For all we know the Cure could be Babs deciding to get lazer eye-surgery. I shall aproach all with caution.

[Alexx1]

I noticed no mention of Dini's Zatanna series.

Yeah I'm thinking Gotham City Sirens is the new BOP book!! I can hope right.

[batmansgirl]

I'm so happy to hear that Fabian Nicieza will be writing Batbooks for a long time, he's been taking care of Timmy quite well for a while now. Same with Peter Tomasi, I adore his take on Dick Grayson and Alfred (though I wish Alfred would stop calling him Richard).

I haven't heard anything about Paul Dini yet, which worries me. I hope there'll be an announcement soon of his involvements in the Batbooks. I loved his Detective Comics work and I hope he'll continue writing such fantastic done-in-one Batstories for a long time.

[spidervenom]

I'm so happy to hear that Fabian Nicieza will be writing Batbooks for a long time, he's been taking care of Timmy quite well for a while now. Same with Peter Tomasi, I adore his take on Dick Grayson and Alfred (though I wish Alfred would stop calling him Richard).

I haven't heard anything about Paul Dini yet, which worries me. I hope there'll be an announcement soon of his involvements in the Batbooks. I loved his Detective Comics work and I hope he'll continue writing such fantastic done-in-one Batstories for a long time.

They said he'll be back in june, possibly more than one. With Batman and Robin with Morrison and possibly Quitely, Rucka and jh, and even dini. This looks the bat books are gonna be awesome.

[elias_A]

According to newsarama, all the titles are definitly ongoing.
And Batgirl starts one month after the Oracle mini ends...

I guess that hints strongly that Babs will be Batgirl again.
Another Cassandra Cain lead ongoing so soon after the unsuccessful mini seems unlikely, especially since Didio said the sales of the mini prove that not enough people want to buy a Cass title.

Conspiracy theorists would also point out that that explains why Adam Beechen was chosen as the writer for the Batgirl mini: Did they want it to fail, so they could wash their hands and silence protests from Cass fans by claiming "but we tried"?

Best hope seems Cass gets at least supporting character status in one of the new titles. But according to newsarama:

- Will they all make it out of Battle for the Cowl? Sattler: There will be a coffin.

[FemGeek]

According to newsarama, all the titles are definitly ongoing.
And Batgirl starts one month after the Oracle mini ends...

I guess that hints strongly that Babs will be Batgirl again.
Another Cassandra Cain lead ongoing so soon after the unsuccessful mini seems unlikely, especially since Didio said the sales of the mini prove that not enough people want to buy a Cass title.

Conspiracy theorists would also point out that that explains why Adam Beechen was chosen as the writer for the Batgirl mini: Did they want it to fail, so they could wash their hands and silence protests from Cass fans by claiming "but we tried"?


It's unlikely that Babs will be Batgirl again, DiDio had this to say at the DCNation panel

Barbara Gordon, keep her as Oracle? Okay.

Maybe diDio listened to the fans and is giving Cass another shot, this time without a writer we dislike. Or he's uo to something else completly.

[Alexx1]

Plus it seems from the solicits so fars, the whole Oracle mini is mainly about Calculator and his kids not Babs herself. And whatever she's after it doesn't seem like its for herself.

[Blight]

Could be Hush or the new Lynx though. Would be funny if it was the later.

[elias_A]

It's unlikely that Babs will be Batgirl again, DiDio had this to say at the DCNation panel



Maybe diDio listened to the fans and is giving Cass another shot, this time without a writer we dislike. Or he's uo to something else completly.

True, I forgot that.

Though I still can't bring myself to seriously hope for another Cass ongoing. (Though of course, the stable sales raised the question why it was canceled in the first place.)
If I'd have to take a bet, I guess Stephanie taking over the costume seems a bit more likely. That would be fine by me, as long as they don't kill off Cass.

[Dr. Chaos]

If it's not Cassandra Cain under the mask, I'm pretty much done with the character (Batgirl) and giving up all hope on the mantle.

Experienced too much annoyance to keep hoping at this point that they could give her a real chance to make a comeback at this point.

[Cayman]

It's unlikely that Babs will be Batgirl again, DiDio had this to say at the DCNation panel



Maybe diDio listened to the fans and is giving Cass another shot, this time without a writer we dislike. Or he's uo to something else completly.

No reason Babs can't be both Oracle and Batgirl.

[Trey]

Sorry folks, but Batgirl is gonna be Barbara Gordon. Its plainly implied the past 2-3 years. Good Jumping on point for new readers and back to basics for long time Batman fans. This is big news.

Why in the wide, wide, wide world of sports won't DC announce the creative teams? Its baffling, isn't it?

I'm getting

- Detective Comics
- Batman
- Batman and Robin
- Batgirl (if it is indeed Gordon)
- Batman: The Streets of Gotham (depending on creative team
- Gotham City Sirens (Hope its Dini , Catwoman, Huntress, Ivy, others.....

[protege]

So- what will "Streets of Gotham" be about?

[Corrina]

Saw this in the story, when asked about Oracle:
**********************************

No to "Oracle," but "feel free to pick up 'Oracle: the Cure,'" Siglain said.

[AlistairCrane]

It would be atrocious if Cassandra doesn't get to stay Batgirl.

[carabas]

A very mixed bag of possibly cool and probably atrocious stuff. But without any creative teams named, I just can't really judge any of it. Except BAtman And Robin, which IIRC wil be Morrison's book.

But Gotham City Sirens? Really? Who came up with that name?

[Alexx1]

Per Newsarma report:

- With Birds of Prey ending, will those characters be in Battle for the Cowl? Daniel: Yes. I love Birds of Prey, and we see them in every issue. They help Tim and Dick handle Gotham. Siglain: Check out the Oracle mini-series and the Batgirl series for more on them.

So it does look like Babs will be coming back as BATGIRL and Birds of Prey will be featured in that book!

Ummm I don't know how I feel about this.

I think the only way I'd be okay with Babs becoming Batgirl again is if Gail Simone is writing this book and therefore handling the characters again. I remember reading somewhere on this board or another board that Gail has another book coming out. I really think this might be it.

[earl]

So- what will "Streets of Gotham" be about?


I think it is possible that they might do a Batman book based more around the rogues gallery and the underworld of Gotham, telling the stories from the villains point of view maybe centering around The Penguin and The Riddler.

It could be that or they might be starting over doing another Legends of the Dark Knight kind of title.

[FemGeek]

Per Newsarma report:

So it does look like Babs will be coming back as BATGIRL and Birds of Prey will be featured in that book!


It seems more to me like the BoP will be in the Oracle mini and the Batgirl series, but dosen't imply at all that Oracle and Batgirl are the same. I'm gonna need WAY more solid evidence of Babs return to Batgirl, and so far there has been none.
Even if it were true, even if Gail wrote it, i wouldn't buy it, it's far too meh of an idea for me to spend money or vision on.

[Alexx1]

It seems more to me like the BoP will be in the Oracle mini and the Batgirl series, but dosen't imply at all that Oracle and Batgirl are the same. I'm gonna need WAY more solid evidence of Babs return to Batgirl, and so far there has been none.
Even if it were true, even if Gail wrote it, i wouldn't buy it, it's far too meh of an idea for me to spend money or vision on.

Why would Birds of Prey be featured in a book that stars Cassandra Cain? I don't know. I just can't see the logic in that. And yeah if Gail were writing it, I'd read it. I think those characters belong in her hands. And if Babs is in fact coming back to the Batgirl moniker, I don't think I'd want anyone other than Gail to handle that. I think she's about one of the few who could make readers buy into it. I'm mean I'm skeptical and don't really want to see Babs as Batgirl but if I have to see it than I'd want Gail to write it.

I'm supper stoked that Daniel said BOP will be in every issue of BFTC. I can't wait to see him draw the characters. I'm also glad it looks like they'll be in the Oracle mini. Which what it looks like Siglain said.

[FemGeek]

Why would Birds of Prey be featured in a book that stars Cassandra Cain? I don't know. I just can't see the logic in that.

I'm supper stoked that Daniel said BOP will be in every issue of BFTC. I can't wait to see him draw the characters. I'm also glad it looks like they'll be in the Oracle mini. Which what it looks like Siglain said.

Depends on the writer I guess. If Babs is still with the Birds then she's bound to make an appearance sooner or later. And the Birds are heading back to Gotham after their series ends and after BFTC (I assume) so they might want to check in on Cass, or she might want to contact them. She might want to train with them a bit, maybe she wants a friend, maybe she can't read a letter she got, lotsa reasons. Whatever the reason, I hope they are somewhat reoccuring in the Batgirl series, I'd hate to see the Birds get Limbo-ed.

[Alexx1]

I'd hate to see the Birds get Limbo-ed.

We both can agree on that...

[Super Buddies Forever]

Not to descend into needless hyperbole, but if Barbara really does become Batgirl again, I'm calling it quits. I think it'd be the last straw, and I've been a DC fan my entire life.

[batmansgirl]

Not to descend into needless hyperbole, but if Barbara really does become Batgirl again, I'm calling it quits. I think it'd be the last straw, and I've been a DC fan my entire life.

I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling this way.

[Doc Goblin]

Oh man. I didn't even consider that Babs might be the Batgirl referred to. Making her Batgirl again would be such crap. I'm not even a fan of Cassandra Cain. I'm a fan of Barbara Gordon, as Oracle. The idea of her becoming Batgirl again sounds so backwards and boring. It seems like it would also clash a bit with Batwoman running around, so I'm not convinced this is what'll happen.

I wish they announced creative teams. Most of these titles mean nothing to me without knowing who's behind them. There's going to be a Batman & Robin title. ...I have no idea what to think about that.

Tell me Winick is writing Red Robin and then I'll know it's a Jason Todd book. I'll be glad! Even though I think it would be stupid to force him into that identity again.

[Flâneur]

Maybe Huntress is becoming Batgirl, that way the BoP would be featured in the book.

I hope against all hope that Oracle doesn't become Batgirl.

[Cayman]

Maybe Huntress is becoming Batgirl, that way the BoP would be featured in the book.

I hope against all hope that Oracle doesn't become Batgirl.

She is Batgirl, now and forever, whether she is in the costume or not.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Yeah, it's hard to get excited for these without knowing the driving forces behind them, especially considering that it seems the Bat-verse is being driven by Morrison's story, and some of these titles may just be placeholders to give certain characters something to do (like Tim) until the inevitable status quo returns.

She is Batgirl, now and forever, whether she is in the costume or not.

Well, she's been Oracle for a good twenty years now, and hasn't been Batgirl for even longer. Some would argue that she's a stronger character as Oracle than she ever was running around in a cape and cowl.

This is what will ultimately drive more readers like me from DC Comics. For all of DiDio's talk about putting the most recognizable characters back in place, what he's really doing is removing any and all consequence from this universe. Anything that happened between 1985 - 2003 is now rendered irrelevant; a mere speedbump in history. This isn't a naturally evolving fictional universe anymore. It's constantly looking backwards, trying to reclaim the childhood of its current creators. Hal Jordan I could understand. Barry Allen I couldn't. Barbara Gordon? Now we're getting silly, especially since the changes made to her arguably made her more important character than she ever was before.

Nevertheless, it's possible this cynicism is unfounded and this isn't the direction they're headed.

[d newton]

Oh man. I didn't even consider that Babs might be the Batgirl referred to. Making her Batgirl again would be such crap.
Because...?

[chipsnopotatoes]

But Gotham City Sirens? Really? Who came up with that name?

Hmm...the more I think about it, I really like the name. It could refer to the femme fatales of Gotham or the sound of police cars blaring after one of their capers or both.

[mathew101281]

Because...?


Because she is more interesting, as Oracle(a unique one of a kind character in the DCU) then she ever was as Batgirl ( a derivitive third string sidekick)

[AlistairCrane]

Not to descend into needless hyperbole, but if Barbara really does become Batgirl again, I'm calling it quits. I think it'd be the last straw, and I've been a DC fan my entire life.

I agree with you as well.

[d newton]

Then she ever was as Batgirl (a derivitive third string sidekick).
Babs was hardly derivative - see her Showcase.

[Red_Knight]

Well, well, well.. I'm not quite sure what to make of this yet. I mean, you can't judge a book by its cover, much less by its title, but so far, the only Bat books that'll be on my pull list for sure are Batman and the new Batman & Robin. I'll have to see about 'Tec. I like Rucka's writing, but I'm not sure I'll ever care enough about Batwoman to get a book featuring her. Besides, I can't really see her staying on 'Tec beyond Bruce's inevitable return, so what's going to happen then?

Won't be getting Gotham City Sirens (UGH! Was it too much to ask to simply call this Gotham Girls?!). Dini's handle on Gotham's female cast is legendary, but I don't care to read a whole series about them. As far as Batman: Streets Of Gotham goes, -- well, I might have a clue if we'd been given any indicator on what this is! Judging by the title. it sounds like a Gotham Central-style book, but Rucka seems to have that covered in 'Tec, so I have no idea.

I'll definitely pass on a Red Robin who isn't Jason Todd. Seriously, he'd better be in BFTC!

[Mundungus]

I'm interested in the differences between Batman, Batman and Robin, and Red Robin.

I believe Morrison is returning to Batman. I'm assuming Dini is going to tackle B&R or Red Robin. Maybe.

[carabas]

Babs was hardly derivative - see her Showcase.I think you need to look up what derivative means.
Hell, she wasn't even the first Bat-Girl.

[davepaton]

I thought Dini would do that Gotham Sirens one if it is about the girls. Again normally I wouldnt be interested in a Batwoman series but since its Rucka and the gotham central characters are gonna be in it I'll defo check it out.

Prob pick up Batman, Batman and Robin, Tec, Streets of Gotham (particularly if its thematically like Gotham Underground) but really just depends on the creative teams. Surely in the mix will be - Rucka, Morrison, Dini, Tomasi, Nicieza. Any word on whether Tony Daniel is back on Batman with Morrison?

[AJM]

Any word on whether Tony Daniel is back on Batman with Morrison?

Give me a Q, give me a U... :wink:

[Alexx1]

I wonder how long we'll have to wait for an announcement of the creative teams for this book. Is there another major con between now and June or will it probably get mentioned in interviews and such?

[ethanhunt]

My best guess #1 : Morrison on Batman and Robin.

My (maybe more than just a guess) #2 Dini on Streets of gotham.

Gotham Sirens? Now that confuses me.

[Captain Jim]

I wonder how long we'll have to wait for an announcement of the creative teams for this book. Is there another major con between now and June or will it probably get mentioned in interviews and such?

I'm guessing they will probably announce these at the next big con; they like to stagger this stuff so they always have something new to announce. My best guess would be MegaCon, on Feb. 27-March 1. In any case, the June solicitations will be out in about six weeks, so I'm confident more information will be announced before then.

[Captain Jim]

I can't really see her staying on 'Tec beyond Bruce's inevitable return, so what's going to happen then?

My guess would be that, if Tec has been selling well in the interim, they will give her her own title.

[Captain Jim]

I noticed no mention of Dini's Zatanna series.


This was a Batman panel. :wink:

[Alexx1]

. In any case, the June solicitations will be out in about six weeks, so I'm confident more information will be announced before then.

I didn't even think about that. Cool!

This was a Batman panel.

True.

[Captain Jim]

I guess that hints strongly that Babs will be Batgirl again.
Another Cassandra Cain lead ongoing so soon after the unsuccessful mini seems unlikely, especially since Didio said the sales of the mini prove that not enough people want to buy a Cass title.

I have been saying for months that Babs would be cured and come back as Batgirl. I really don't think this will be Cass. I suppose it could be a new character, but why do that at the same time you're debuting a Batwoman series? I still think Babs is the best bet. Recent issues of BOP have been leading up to this, IMO.

Best hope seems Cass gets at least supporting character status in one of the new titles. But according to newsarama:
- Will they all make it out of Battle for the Cowl? Sattler: There will be a coffin.

Yeah, nobody else has commented on that, but this bothers me a bit. It could be Cass, I suppose, but I'm also worried about Tim if Damian becomes Robin and Jason becomes Red Robin. And that would be a much greater tragedy, IMO.

[Captain Jim]

So the eight Bat-books in June are:

Batman
Detective Comics
Outsiders
Batman and Robin
Batman: Streets of Gotham
Gotham City Sirens
Batgirl
Red Robin

A few comments and guesses...

Once again, Rich Johnston is correct. He said, months ago, that Nightwing and Robin would be cancelled and replaced by Red Robin and Batman & Robin. Since Rich also said that Red Robin would star Jason Todd, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's right here as well. No idea who will be working on it, though I agree with others that Judd Winick would be good (IMO, he's the only one who's done a good job with the character since his return.) However, Winick seems to have vanished from the DC bullpen.

Batman & Robin, as I've said elsewhere, I think will be the new Grant Morrison title (possibly with Frank Quitely on the art; that was another LITG rumor).

Detective we already knew (for a couple days, at least) would be Rucka's Batwoman.

We also knew a new Batman-less Outsiders title is coming.

Batgirl was a bit of a surprise for me, but I've been predicting that Barbara would come back in that role, so I'm guessing this is her. No idea who might be working on it, though.

Gotham City Sirens caught me off guard as well. Perhaps this is a revised version of the long-rumored "Gotham Girls." I actually looked up "sirens" in the dictionary and one definition is "a woman regarded as seductive and beautiful." At least it looks like there's going to be a place for Catwoman here, which is a plus. Since Dini has been confirmed as working on one or two of these projects, I'm guessing (as others have) that this might be one of his.

Batman: Streets of Gotham was another surprise. I have no idea.

That leaves us with the Batman book. A couple of possibilities: maybe this could be Tim's new home--I hope he has one somewhere. That doesn't mean he'll be Batman, necessarily. Superman isn't going to be in his title during the next year either. Or possibly a Bruce Wayne "lost in time" title. (Morrison did indicate that we'd know more about what happened to Bruce in June.) I look for Tony Daniel to continue to provide the art. (If it's indeed about Tim, maybe Fabian will do the writing.)

Well, in spite of some apprehension in a few regards, overall, this has me excited. Can't wait to hear the details.

[Cayman]

Batgirl was a bit of a surprise for me, but I've been predicting that Barbara would come back in that role, so I'm guessing this is her. No idea who might be working on it, though.

.

Although I know it won't be him, Batgirl would be a perfect title for Cliff Chiang to draw.

[FemGeek]

Yeah, nobody else has commented on that, but this bothers me a bit. It could be Cass, I suppose, but I'm also worried about Tim if Damian becomes Robin and Jason becomes Red Robin. And that would be a much greater tragedy, IMO.

The arm defenetley seems to be a female, and also wearing red nail-polish, not something Cass is want to do. My new theory, is that after the Cure, Oracle is MIA and Batwoman searches for her. The upturned wheelchair, and BW with the spyglass suggest this, as does the early pages of BW is 'Tec who is looking for a 'her'. This could also explain the BoP appearance in Batgirl - looking for Babs. I've seen no real evidence so far that Babs will be Batgirl again, or even that she will walk again (though the title, the Cure sure suggests it now). Guess we'll see what happens in the coming weeks, with the end of BoP, BFTC and the Oracle mini. At this point, we could all be wrong.

[Alexx1]

The arm defenetley seems to be a female, and also wearing red nail-polish, not something Cass is want to do. My new theory, is that after the Cure, Oracle is MIA and Batwoman searches for her. The upturned wheelchair, and BW with the spyglass suggest this, as does the early pages of BW is 'Tec who is looking for a 'her'. This could also explain the BoP appearance in Batgirl - looking for Babs. I've seen no real evidence so far that Babs will be Batgirl again, or even that she will walk again (though the title, the Cure sure suggests it now). Guess we'll see what happens in the coming weeks, with the end of BoP, BFTC and the Oracle mini. At this point, we could all be wrong.

That's a logical scenerio (and a good one) and would please me considering I'm not all up for Babs becoming Batgirl again. I think if it goes that direction, Fabian will be writing this book but if Babs is in fact becoming Batgirl again (which I agree with Captain Jim from the previous BOP issues it does seem more like a possibility) than I think DC will give the book to Gail Simone to write Babs as Batgirl featuring BOP!

[Flâneur]

She is Batgirl, now and forever, whether she is in the costume or not.
Oracle has moved far beyond being a girl and I don't see the need to put her in the role of a vigilante kicking butt when her current role puts her everywhere in the DCU. It will only serve to reduce her role in the wider DCU down to being just a sidekick in the bat books and we both know that a comic isn't going to feature her button tapping in place of a fight scene; it's an either/or situation and I know which one I want.

[Captain Jim]

For my part, let me qualify that I am not necessarily in agreement that Babs should become Batgirl again; I just think that's what's going to happen.

[Cayman]

Oracle has moved far beyond being a girl and I don't see the need to put her in the role of a vigilante kicking butt when her current role puts her everywhere in the DCU. It will only serve to reduce her role in the wider DCU down to being just a sidekick in the bat books and we both know that a comic isn't going to feature her button tapping in place of a fight scene; it's an either/or situation and I know which one I want.

Button-tapping is not that exciting and today's technology is so portable, it no longer requires someone to sit at a terminal.

[Flâneur]

Button-tapping is not that exciting and today's technology is so portable, it no longer requires someone to sit at a terminal.

A generation of porn consumers disagree!

And the button tapping involves her in communications with everyone everywhere, it's part of what gives her this wider coverage and is part of her empowerment, of being able to be heroic with her disability. Also, makes her awesome in a team book or in a mentor role.

[Cayman]

A generation of porn consumers disagree!

And the button tapping involves her in communications with everyone everywhere, it's part of what gives her this wider coverage and is part of her empowerment, of being able to be heroic with her disability. Also, makes her awesome in a team book or in a mentor role.

She could continue to use technology as Batgirl.

There's plenty of male characters who don't have to be in a wheelchair to do so.

[Flâneur]

She could continue to use technology as Batgirl.

There's plenty of male characters who don't have to be in a wheelchair to do so.

If she's going to continue in the tech-heavy role, then why demote her to Batgirl? I honestly don't see the point to putting her in spandex, it's like putting Professor Xavier into a student team as a junior member and calling him Mind Boy.

And that's not a rationale for taking her out of the wheel chair. Why does she need to be Batgirl?

[Cayman]

If she's going to continue in the tech-heavy role, then why demote her to Batgirl? I honestly don't see the point to putting her in spandex, it's like putting Professor Xavier into a student team as a junior member and calling him Mind Boy.

And that's not a rationale for taking her out of the wheel chair. Why does she need to be Batgirl?

Being Batgirl isn't a demotion. Batgirl's a fantastic and fun iconic character that has been missing from comics for years and Barbara is the best character to have used that identity. She's spent more than enough time in the wheelchair.

[Flâneur]

Being Batgirl isn't a demotion. Batgirl's a fantastic and fun iconic character that has been missing from comics for years and Barbara is the best character to have used that identity. She's spent more than enough time in the wheelchair.

You could use the same argument for making Nightwing go back to being Robin, honestly. It's a sidekick identity, it might be fun and iconic but it's still about being a sidekick and a kid. And I just don't see the wheelchair as a bad thing for Babs, it's not a prison she needs to bust out of, it's a part of her character now and it's a great character.

I could kind of see your point if you wanted her to be Batwoman, but not Batgirl.

[GDB]

If she stops being Oracle as we know her, she could easily become a tech-savvy hero like the way Hank Pym seems to be headed now in Mighty Avengers, Gizmo (Teen Titans enemy), or Gear (Static's friend and partner). She could easily maintain the Oracle name, but just be more action based than desktop based.

[Cayman]

You could use the same argument for making Nightwing go back to being Robin, honestly. It's a sidekick identity, it might be fun and iconic but it's still about being a sidekick and a kid. And I just don't see the wheelchair as a bad thing for Babs, it's not a prison she needs to bust out of, it's a part of her character now and it's a great character.

I could kind of see your point if you wanted her to be Batwoman, but not Batgirl.

Oh it is not, I get tired of that fallacy. Batgirl is no more a kid's name than Hawkgirl or Power Girl, and there's no reason why she has to function as a sidekick just because she's part of the Bat family of characters. She'd be better than ever in her role because of the experiences she has had as Oracle.

[AlistairCrane]

Oh it is not, I get tired of that fallacy. Batgirl is no more a kid's name than Hawkgirl or Power Girl, and there's no reason why she has to function as a sidekick just because she's part of the Bat family of characters. She'd be better than ever in her role because of the experiences she has had as Oracle.

And HawkGIRL and Power GIRL are also kids names. No self-respecting WOMAN would refer to herself as a girl. It's infantilizing.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Oh it is not, I get tired of that fallacy. Batgirl is no more a kid's name than Hawkgirl or Power Girl, and there's no reason why she has to function as a sidekick just because she's part of the Bat family of characters. She'd be better than ever in her role because of the experiences she has had as Oracle.

She's a sidekick because 1) She's over shadowed by Batman and 2) her origin is completely dependant upon him. And it's a demotion because instead of being the information broker to the entire hero community, she's punching out someone else's rogues.

[Cayman]

She's a sidekick because 1) She's over shadowed by Batman and 2) her origin is completely dependant upon him. And it's a demotion because instead of being the information broker to the entire hero community, she's punching out someone else's rogues.

She can still be the information broker to the entire hero community and why can't she have her own rogues?

[AlistairCrane]

She can still be the information broker to the entire hero community and why can't she have her own rogues?

Um, she's not going to be Batgirl AND Oracle. She's not that special. She doesn't deserve two jobs.

Barb as Batgirl is just SO regressive and stupid. We already have a good Batgirl. Her name is Cassandra Cain. We don't need Barbara to be Batgirl again when she's doing a fine job as Oracle.

Barbara's tenure as Batgirl ended a long time ago. You're welcome to enjoy your back issues, but the last thing we need to suffer through is Silver Age fan wankery with Barbara as Batgirl again. Hell NO.

[Cayman]

Um, she's not going to be Batgirl AND Oracle. She's not that special. She doesn't deserve two jobs.

Barb as Batgirl is just SO regressive and stupid. We already have a good Batgirl. Her name is Cassandra Cain. We don't need Barbara to be Batgirl again when she's doing a fine job as Oracle.

Barbara's tenure as Batgirl ended a long time ago. You're welcome to enjoy your back issues, but the last thing we need to suffer through is Silver Age fan wankery with Barbara as Batgirl again. Hell NO.

She is that special. She's a great character who deserves a lot of respect and exposure.

[Flâneur]

Oh it is not, I get tired of that fallacy. Batgirl is no more a kid's name than Hawkgirl or Power Girl, and there's no reason why she has to function as a sidekick just because she's part of the Bat family of characters. She'd be better than ever in her role because of the experiences she has had as Oracle.

As opposed to Wonder Girl, Spider Girl, Super Girl, Aqua Girl, Thor Girl, Monster Girl and the girls in Legion of Superheroes? It definitely does have connotations of being a sidekick and a teen hero and it's one of the reasons I hate that there's a Power Girl moniker rather than Power Woman. Invisible Woman moved past it a long time ago and so should she. It's an identity Babs used when she was a sidekick teen hero and since then it's been used mostly by Cassie who is also a sidekick teen hero. The name Batgirl is definitely a kid's name and a kid's role. She can't be independent of the Batman as his peer while she's Batgirl.

[Cayman]

As opposed to Wonder Girl, Spider Girl, Super Girl, Aqua Girl, Thor Girl, Monster Girl and the girls in Legion of Superheroes? It definitely does have connotations of being a sidekick and a teen hero and it's one of the reasons I hate that there's a Power Girl moniker rather than Power Woman. Invisible Woman moved past it a long time ago and so should she. It's an identity Babs used when she was a sidekick teen hero and since then it's been used mostly by Cassie who is also a sidekick teen hero. The name Batgirl is definitely a kid's name and a kid's role. She can't be independent of the Batman as his peer while she's Batgirl.

I disagree, I think you're imposing a limitation on the character that's not actually there.

[AlistairCrane]

She is that special. She's a great character who deserves a lot of respect and exposure.

No she's not that special.

Babs had plenty of exposure from the 60s to NOW. She was Batgirl in the 60s series AND the animated series. That's plenty of exposure. She's actually better as Oracle.

Now it's Cassie's time to shine.

[The Cool Thatguy]

She can still be the information broker to the entire hero community and why can't she have her own rogues?

Not really. Being Oracle is a full time job.

As Oracle, she has her own identity, rogues and recognition.

As Batgirl, she's taking someone else's name, using their rogues and isn't acting as half the heavy weight she would be as Oracle. How, exactly, is that a step up?

[Cayman]

No she's not that special.

Babs had plenty of exposure from the 60s to NOW. She was Batgirl in the 60s series AND the animated series. That's plenty of exposure. She's actually better as Oracle.

Now it's Cassie's time to shine.

They've given Cassie chances to shine and she has failed to do so.

[AlistairCrane]

They've given Cassie chances to shine and she has failed to do so.

No, you're wrong. In the past three years, she was butchered by Adam Beechen. You fail to remember she had a hit series before that.

Anyway, your point is moot. A failed Cassie STILL wouldn't mean it's a good idea to bring Babs back as Batgirl.

[Cayman]

Not really. Being Oracle is a full time job.

As Oracle, she has her own identity, rogues and recognition.

As Batgirl, she's taking someone else's name, using their rogues and isn't acting as half the heavy weight she would be as Oracle. How, exactly, is that a step up?

No, she's reclaiming her own name. There's no reason she can't have her own rogues. There's no reason she cannot continue to function as Oracle when needed.

[the goddamn batman]

it's like putting Professor Xavier into a student team as a junior member and calling him Mind Boy.

No it's not. It's not like that at all. Professor X has always been Professor X. If he was originally Mind-Boy and someone paralyzed him, which resulted in his becoming Pofessor X, then it would be like that.

And HawkGIRL and Power GIRL are also kids names. No self-respecting WOMAN would refer to herself as a girl. It's infantilizing.

Oh yeah, totally. Except for, like, the fact that you're wrong.

[AlistairCrane]

Oh yeah, totally. Except for, like, the fact that you're wrong.

Except I'm not, Mr. Misogynist.

[Cayman]

No, you're wrong. In the past three years, she was butchered by Adam Beechen. You fail to remember she had a hit series before that.

Anyway, your point is moot. A failed Cassie STILL wouldn't mean it's a good idea to bring Babs back as Batgirl.

I remember she had a series that was canceled.

[AlistairCrane]

No, she's reclaiming her own name. There's no reason she can't have her own rogues. There's no reason she cannot continue to function as Oracle when needed.

Barbara has said many times that Cassandra is Batgirl now and she wouldn't take that away from her.

Besides, Barbara would be a loser if she, as a woman in her late twenties, went around calling herself a girl.

Everything BarbBat can do, Catwoman, Huntress, Spoiler, and Cassie can do better. :biggrin:

[the goddamn batman]

Except I'm not, Mr. Misogynist.

We don't need to start calling people names.

You want an example of how you're wrong? Girlfriend.

[AlistairCrane]

I remember she had a series that was canceled.

A series that was cancelled so they could try to turn her evil. Fan backlash caused them to undo the evil thing. Get your facts straight, buddy. I know you're a n00b, but still. Do some research, k?

[Flâneur]

I disagree, I think you're imposing a limitation on the character that's not actually there.
It's a name derived from another character, which she last used when a sidekick to said character that is regularly used to infer a junior or immature status. I don't know if that's precisely a limitation but it has huge connotations and if Batgirl is not that then it's not the Batgirl role. It's a new role and identity which is what she has now.

They've given Cassie chances to shine and she has failed to do so.
Then prop up Helena or Misfit properly. Huntress has been built up as a character much more effectively so it'd make sense for her to have the role, especially with Oracle's backing. Or for Oracle to take a more senior position and train the next gen with Misfit, who is her own sidekick (though I kind of am bored with Misfit).

[Cayman]

Barbara has said many times that Cassandra is Batgirl now and she wouldn't take that away from her.

Besides, Barbara would be a loser if she, as a woman in her late twenties, went around calling herself a girl.

Everything BarbBat can do, Catwoman, Huntress, Spoiler, and Cassie can do better. :biggrin:

She would hardly be a loser. She's accomplished and endured too much to ever be a loser.

[Cayman]

A series that was cancelled so they could try to turn her evil. Fan backlash caused them to undo the evil thing. Get your facts straight, buddy. I know you're a n00b, but still. Do some research, k?

Or did they try to turn her evil because her series was canceled and they didn't know what to do with her?

[Flâneur]

Except I'm not, Mr. Misogynist.

A series that was cancelled so they could try to turn her evil. Fan backlash caused them to undo the evil thing. Get your facts straight, buddy. I know you're a n00b, but still. Do some research, k?

Um, that's not cool.

[AlistairCrane]

She would hardly be a loser. She's accomplished and endured too much to ever be a loser.

Two words: Dick. Grayson. How'd that turn out?

Oh, right.... :wink:

[AlistairCrane]

Or did they try to turn her evil because her series was canceled and they didn't know what to do with her?

See, if you did some research, you'd know they cancelled her series so they could turn her evil the next month in Robin.

[AlistairCrane]

Um, that's not cool.

Sorry, but if people are gonna run their mouths, they should really check their facts first.

[Cayman]

It's a name derived from another character, which she last used when a sidekick to said character that is regularly used to infer a junior or immature status. I don't know if that's precisely a limitation but it has huge connotations and if Batgirl is not that then it's not the Batgirl role. It's a new role and identity which is what she has now.


Then prop up Helena or Misfit properly. Huntress has been built up as a character much more effectively so it'd make sense for her to have the role, especially with Oracle's backing. Or for Oracle to take a more senior position and train the next gen with Misfit, who is her own sidekick (though I kind of am bored with Misfit).

Huntress is just fine as Huntress.

Misfit is something of a novelty character. She'll lose what charm she has if she ever becomes too competent or serious. I'd prefer to see the character in Teen Titans rather than hanging around with Barbara.

[GDB]

Two words: Dick. Grayson. How'd that turn out?

Oh, right.... :wink:

What'd he ever do to you? :frown:

[the goddamn batman]

Um, that's not cool.

Neither was the PM I just got...

[AlistairCrane]

What'd he ever do to you? :frown:

Cayman said Barb's not a loser, and I was pointing out that she's certainly a loser in love when it comes to Dick. And Jason Bard. And so on...

[Mac]

Batman & Robin, as I've said elsewhere, I think will be the new Grant Morrison title (possibly with Frank Quitely on the art; that was another LITG rumor).

That leaves us with the Batman book. A couple of possibilities: maybe this could be Tim's new home--I hope he has one somewhere. That doesn't mean he'll be Batman, necessarily. Superman isn't going to be in his title during the next year either. Or possibly a Bruce Wayne "lost in time" title. (Morrison did indicate that we'd know more about what happened to Bruce in June.) I look for Tony Daniel to continue to provide the art. (If it's indeed about Tim, maybe Fabian will do the writing.)

I think I actually agree this.

Morrison's been saying his Batman story's not over yet.
So let's say Batman takes the path that Superman is taking- An absence of the iconic character (That being Bruce Wayne, not 'Batman')
Batman And Robin is where we see Morrison- until the inevitable return of Bruce Wayne, in which he returns to the regular Batman title.

And as Morrison goes to Batman, Dini and Nguyen pick up Batman and Robin. =D
Honestly, this whole mess hopefully will be cleared up at the next Bat-Panel.

For now I've got Batman and Batman & Robin on my pull list for sure, since I'm such a sucker for the main Bat-books.
I'm honestly not too interested in the Batwoman run on 'Tec, though. Might have to wait til they come out and I get a chance to skim through the pages before I make up my mind though.
Waiting to hear more on SoG and Red Robin before I make up my mind on them.

Ah, so many new Bat-books- I don't see how any Batman fans are upset at all.
While I understand how Batman and Detective Comics really need to be the only Batbooks out there- So many books, with so many possibilities; I'm excited.

[Cayman]

See, if you did some research, you'd know they cancelled her series so they could turn her evil the next month in Robin.

More likely they canceled the series because the sales weren't meeting their expectations.

[AlistairCrane]

More likely they canceled the series because the sales weren't meeting their expectations.

Actually, it was beating Catwoman, which was only cancelled two and a half years AFTER Batgirl.

[Cayman]

Actually, it was beating Catwoman, which was only cancelled two and a half years AFTER Batgirl.

But that doesn't mean that sales for Batgirl were meeting the expectations had for it. It's possible that Catwoman was selling better in trades or they kept it alive longer because it stars a character who appears in more licensed products.

[The Cool Thatguy]

They've given Cassie chances to shine and she has failed to do so.

Or did they try to turn her evil because her series was canceled and they didn't know what to do with her?

Nope. Another poster was rather impolite, but correct in saying that you need to check your facts.

At the time Cass' series was cancelled, it was outselling Firestorm, Robin and Catwoman, all of whom were kept around.

Cass was removed for the gimmick Batwoman. That failed and the fans demanded her back. I've not seen any demand for Babs back as Batgirl, and it's been decades. That's because Oracle is simply the stronger character.

[The Cool Thatguy]

But that doesn't mean that sales for Batgirl were meeting the expectations had for it. It's possible that Catwoman was selling better in trades or they kept it alive longer because it stars a character who appears in more licensed products.

What exactly are 'meeting expectations'? She was making a profit. That's about all they need. They were mad about her defying expectations, not meeting them.

[Cayman]

Nope. Another poster was rather impolite, but correct in saying that you need to check your facts.

At the time Cass' series was cancelled, it was outselling Firestorm, Robin and Catwoman, all of whom were kept around.

Cass was removed for the gimmick Batwoman. That failed and the fans demanded her back. I've not seen any demand for Babs back as Batgirl, and it's been decades. That's because Oracle is simply the stronger character.

What it was outselling doesn't really matter. They'll keep low-selling series around for various other reasons.

And if there was a demand for the return of Cassie as Batgirl, it wasn't reflected in the sales of her mini or the Outsiders, the last two issues of which have basically starred the character.

[The Cool Thatguy]

What it was outselling doesn't really matter. They'll keep low-selling series around for various other reasons.

And if there was a demand for the return of Cassie as Batgirl, it wasn't reflected in the sales of her mini or the Outsiders, the last two issues of which have basically starred the character.

Outsiders is actually still ongoing, and the writer who ruined Cass' character originally was chosen to do her mini series. See the connection?

And I doubt that Firestorm was kept around for brand reasons :rolleyes:

[Flâneur]

Huntress is just fine as Huntress.

Misfit is something of a novelty character. She'll lose what charm she has if she ever becomes too competent or serious. I'd prefer to see the character in Teen Titans rather than hanging around with Barbara.

And Oracle is just fine as Oracle.

I'd much rather see Huntress as Batgirl, which wouldn't require much of a change in her status quo, backed by Oracle, which puts Babs in more of a Bruce role than a sidekick role since the Batgirl is her sidekick. Heck, give Babs Spoiler as well and she can be the one with her Batgirl and Robin

Sorry, but if people are gonna run their mouths, they should really check their facts first.
I agree that girl is a bit of a lessening term for a woman to use but you're going slightly over the top, in both cases.

[the goddamn batman]

I agree that girl is a bit of a lessening term for a woman to use

I think it depends on the usage. In this case I'd see it as a reclamation of an identity that was violently taken away from her. There's nothing lessening about that, if you ask me.

but you're going slightly over the top, in both cases.

You have no idea.

[Cayman]

Outsiders is actually still ongoing, and the writer who ruined Cass' character originally was chosen to do her mini series. See the connection?

And I doubt that Firestorm was kept around for brand reasons :rolleyes:

Firestorm didn't last a whole lot longer, and Batgirl appears to be leaving the Outsiders title.

[Cayman]

And Oracle is just fine as Oracle.

I'd much rather see Huntress as Batgirl, which wouldn't require much of a change in her status quo, backed by Oracle, which puts Babs in more of a Bruce role than a sidekick role since the Batgirl is her sidekick. Heck, give Babs Spoiler as well and she can be the one with her Batgirl and Robin


I agree that girl is a bit of a lessening term for a woman to use but you're going slightly over the top, in both cases.

Oracle worked when Birds Of Prey was an ongoing concern. Now that it's not, she's likely to fade into the background in that role.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Oracle worked when Birds Of Prey was an ongoing concern. Now that it's not, she's likely to fade into the background in that role.

Well yes. Cancel something needlessly and characters lose their spotlight. Who knew?

Firestorm didn't last a whole lot longer, and Batgirl appears to be leaving the Outsiders title.

Yes, and?

When they turned her evil, fan outrage brought her back inside of two years. That's damn good turn around time. Babs has been Oracle and not Batgirl for...how long now?

[d newton]

In the past three years, she was butchered.
She was butchered in 5 issues of another Bat title and a 6 issue mini? Okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkay. :rolleyes:

[The Cool Thatguy]

She was butchered in 5 issues of another Bat title and a 6 issue mini? Okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkay. :rolleyes:

Nice counter arguement there. No discussion of the issue at hand, just casual dismissal of the opinions of others. Get a new tactic already, Newton.

[Cayman]

Well yes. Cancel something needlessly and characters lose their spotlight. Who knew?



Yes, and?

When they turned her evil, fan outrage brought her back inside of two years. That's damn good turn around time. Babs has been Oracle and not Batgirl for...how long now?

Fan outrage brought her back but not in a particularly successful way.

Barbara hasn't been Batgirl for a long time but the time is right for her to return to the role with all of the changes that are happening in the Bat titles.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Fan outrage brought her back but not in a particularly successful way.

Barbara hasn't been Batgirl for a long time but the time is right for her to return to the role with all of the changes that are happening in the Bat titles.

Cassandra had a successful series for 74 issues before they pointlessly made her evil. Fan outrage made them bring her back faster than HEAT redeemed Hal Jordan.

DC's inability to make a profit/find an angle for Cassandra isn't because of any failings on the character's part, or the fans. That should be pretty clear.

[d newton]

Nice counter arguement there. No discussion of the issue at hand, just casual dismissal of the opinions of others.
How was I dismissing the opinions of others? :confused:

[Captain Jim]

Um, that's not cool.

We don't have to worry about Alistair's insults anymore.

[the goddamn batman]

Thanks, Jim. :smile:

[jwd]

A few comments and guesses...

Batman & Robin, as I've said elsewhere, I think will be the new Grant Morrison title (possibly with Frank Quitely on the art; that was another LITG rumor).

Detective we already knew (for a couple days, at least) would be Rucka's Batwoman.

We also knew a new Batman-less Outsiders title is coming.

Batgirl was a bit of a surprise for me, but I've been predicting that Barbara would come back in that role, so I'm guessing this is her. No idea who might be working on it, though.

Gotham City Sirens caught me off guard as well. Perhaps this is a revised version of the long-rumored "Gotham Girls." I actually looked up "sirens" in the dictionary and one definition is "a woman regarded as seductive and beautiful." At least it looks like there's going to be a place for Catwoman here, which is a plus. Since Dini has been confirmed as working on one or two of these projects, I'm guessing (as others have) that this might be one of his.

Batman: Streets of Gotham was another surprise. I have no idea.

That leaves us with the Batman book. A couple of possibilities: maybe this could be Tim's new home--I hope he has one somewhere. That doesn't mean he'll be Batman, necessarily. Superman isn't going to be in his title during the next year either. Or possibly a Bruce Wayne "lost in time" title. (Morrison did indicate that we'd know more about what happened to Bruce in June.) I look for Tony Daniel to continue to provide the art. (If it's indeed about Tim, maybe Fabian will do the writing.)

Well, in spite of some apprehension in a few regards, overall, this has me excited. Can't wait to hear the details.

Lot of good guesses and some I hadn't thought of. So based on what you said above my guesses for the titles -

Batman and Robin - Dick Grayson and Tim Drake teaming up and fighting crime in Gotham City

Red Robin - Jason Todd in the starring role

Outsiders - Possibly Tim or Jason I think taking a prominent role in a team book. I believe Dick Grayson will be joining the JLA if he joins a team.

Detective Comics - Already said - Batwoman

Batgirl - I'm leaning towards it being Babs too. Another possibility I'm surprised not considered is Stephanie Brown. A Batgirl that's had a relationship with a Robin isn't completely unheard of.

Gotham City Sirens - Kind of the Birds of Prey book but it'll be sticking around Gotham and focus on female hero and villains.

Batman: Streets of Gotham - Dick Grayson's solo book. This will focus more on his time alone on the streets and probably interacting with the GCPD sans Tim.

Batman - I like your idea of a "Lost in time" book. Bruce Wayne in Ancient Eqypt fighting or in Greece or something. Maybe his condition jumps him through time. Think of all the experience he could gain?

[Flâneur]

Oracle worked when Birds Of Prey was an ongoing concern. Now that it's not, she's likely to fade into the background in that role.

That's a title issue, not the role. They can put Babs and her proteges somewhere else, like Batgirl if Helena got it or Gotham City Sirens. The Oracle and her Birds are still viable, just not in a BoP book.

[elias_A]

I think it depends on the usage. In this case I'd see it as a reclamation of an identity that was violently taken away from her. There's nothing lessening about that, if you ask me.


Actually, Babs had already quit being Batgirl when Killing Joke happened.
But that's beside the point.

I don't think it makes sense to start a Cass against Babs flame war here. I'm as big a Cass fan as anyone and hated what DC did with her in the last years, but while it can be argued if the sales of her series were bad enough for cancellation (instead of trying to rebuild interest with a new direction or a crossover), it's true that it wasn't too far from the border.

The question if Babs or Cass was the more popular Batgirl is moot I think, since Babs reclaiming the identity would have to be a very different person from her retro stories, since she's become so much more mature and experienced as Oracle. (Unless they'd involve some retcon aspects).

So IMO the real question to discuss is, would a mature Babs still "feel" like Batgirl, or would it be too different from what readers expect to work?

In principle Cass could work just as fine with another costume and codename. Sure, she would get less face-time. But she doesn't get much now anyway...

As I think I already mentioned, to me seems worth considering that DC might think a Batgirl series could reach teenage girls, and those would like or expect some high-school soap stuff in a Batgirl story.
That's why I assume Spoiler becoming the new Batgirl is also not unlikely.

[Seraku]

forgive me for not reading all 9 pages but my theory is:

Red Robin - obviously Nicieza and will be either Jason or Tim

B&R - obviously the winners of BftC

I think Batgirl will continue to be Cass, on his blog Tony Daniel admitted to being a huge fan of the character and always wanted to work on her.

Batman: Streets of Gotham - calling it now: Dini/Nguyen

Batman - Morrison continues Bruce adventures?

Gotham City Sirens - catwoman and huntress?

[the goddamn batman]

Actually, Babs had already quit being Batgirl when Killing Joke happened.


Wait... really? Jeez... I dunno, I'm not Mr. Continuity. Well, egg on my face, then. :redface:

[Perry Holley]

Wait... really? Jeez... I dunno, I'm not Mr. Continuity. Well, egg on my face, then. :redface:If memory serves, she quit at the end of the Batgirl one-shot that was published something like a week before Killing Joke, so it's understandable that someone might conflate the two.

[Red Lotus]

Lying In The Gutters has pretty much nailed it so far. So i guess the Nightwing will be Batman thing Its starting to look like it will happen too.

[AJM]

EDIT: Sorry, changed my mind.

[Trey]

Being Batgirl isn't a demotion. Batgirl's a fantastic and fun iconic character that has been missing from comics for years and Barbara is the best character to have used that identity. She's spent more than enough time in the wheelchair.

Exactly, Batgirl is a more vital role than Oracle. Its where Barbara Gordon belongs. The daughter of the police commissioner as a crime-fighting vigilante.

No one said she would be reduced to side-kick status. Were the past Batgirls sidekicks? NO. So what makes people feel this way? Delusion?

Its a natural development in her character arc. As we enter the 40th year or more of a character, its natural to revert to previous iterations. Maybe in another 10 years, she'll be shot again and crippled and you guys can cheer. "Yay, Oracle is back!"

[The Cool Thatguy]

Exactly, Batgirl is a more vital role than Oracle. Its where Barbara Gordon belongs. The daughter of the police commissioner as a crime-fighting vigilante.

No one said she would be reduced to side-kick status. Were the past Batgirls sidekicks? NO. So what makes people feel this way? Delusion?

Its a natural development in her character arc. As we enter the 40th year or more of a character, its natural to revert to previous iterations. Maybe in another 10 years, she'll be shot again and crippled and you guys can cheer. "Yay, Oracle is back!"

How is Batgirl a more vital role? Oracle tangles with bad guys like Kobra, takes down international drug dealers and deals with problems all over the world. And that's to say nothing the help she gives to guys like Green Lantern, JLA and others.

In contrast, Batgirl just beats up Batman's left overs. Not a step up.

[Trey]

How is Batgirl a more vital role? Oracle tangles with bad guys like Kobra, takes down international drug dealers and deals with problems all over the world. And that's to say nothing the help she gives to guys like Green Lantern, JLA and others.

In contrast, Batgirl just beats up Batman's left overs. Not a step up.

Do you know the history of Barbara Gordon, Batgirl?

While yes Oracle does help, with information, that's fine but she lost her crime-fighting career. Now (we are speculating) she will be cured and its her natural character progression to want to resume.

And we don't know what types of villains she will stop as Batgirl.

Could Oracle sustain a solo book? NO. Can Gordon Batgirl? Yes.

[the goddamn batman]

I'd buy a Babs as Batgirl book.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Do you know the history of Barbara Gordon, Batgirl?

While yes Oracle does help, with information, that's fine but she lost her crime-fighting career. Now (we are speculating) she will be cured and its her natural character progression to want to resume.

And we don't know what types of villains she will stop as Batgirl.

Could Oracle sustain a solo book? NO. Can Gordon Batgirl? Yes.

I know of it. It's awash in Silver Age cliches and should be almost painful to those of modern sensibilities.

Babs didn't stop being a crime fighter when she stopped being Batgirl (which she quit before she was shot). Oracle directed and coordinated heroines on a regular basis all over the world. She did more good as Oracle than she ever did as Batgirl.

[carabas]

Could Oracle sustain a solo book? NO. Can Gordon Batgirl? Yes.If she couldn't when the character was white hot back in the sixties-seventies, what makes you think she can now, after the implosion of the comics market, and with a sizeable Oracle fanbase actively hating this move and wanting to see it fail?

[Flâneur]

Exactly, Batgirl is a more vital role than Oracle. Its where Barbara Gordon belongs. The daughter of the police commissioner as a crime-fighting vigilante.

No one said she would be reduced to side-kick status. Were the past Batgirls sidekicks? NO. So what makes people feel this way? Delusion?

Its a natural development in her character arc. As we enter the 40th year or more of a character, its natural to revert to previous iterations. Maybe in another 10 years, she'll be shot again and crippled and you guys can cheer. "Yay, Oracle is back!"
Except everything about your statement is defining her according to someone else's role. She's important because she's the Commissioner's daughter. She's important because she's Batgirl, Batman's sidekick (and yes, Batgirl was and is a sidekick role). That kind of importance, as an accessory for other characters, is diminishing. Her being important because of a role that's been built up as her own person? That's empowering.

Oracle is a more senior position, a more independent position and one that gets more reference and coverage in the wider DCU than Batgirl. I don't know how you can't see how much of a demotion it is, I mean, Nightwing gets to be Batman while Babs turns into Batgirl? Just no.

[d newton]

Except everything about your statement is defining her according to someone else's role. She's important because she's the Commissioner's daughter. She's important because she's Batgirl, Batman's sidekick (and yes, Batgirl was and is a sidekick role). That kind of importance, as an accessory for other characters, is diminishing. Her being important because of a role that's been built up as her own person? That's empowering.
*facepalm* She's been in a wheelchair for 20 years - how is that empowering?

[Sean Whitmore]

*facepalm* She's been in a wheelchair for 20 years - how is that empowering?

You must have missed it, he said it right here:

Her being important because of a role that's been built up as her own person


SEAN

[d newton]

More people want to see this:
http://tplist.millarworld.net/Images/batgirly1.jpg
over this:
http://tplist.millarworld.net/Images/bopbac.jpg

[Ben Reilly#6]

Her being important because of a role that's been built up as her own person? That's empowering.


So being a sentient phone book is empowering. I'll have to remember that for my own writing endeavours.

But joking aside, how about letting them try to build upon her role by adding another layer into it, instead of getting miffed over a codename? I don't want to see her as Batgirl either, but I'm glad they might actually get her up and moving, and give her a real sense of omnipotence by giving her the option of going out in the field of need be, while still maintaining her status as Oracle.

[Flâneur]

More people want to see this:
http://tplist.millarworld.net/Images/batgirly1.jpg
over this:
http://tplist.millarworld.net/Images/bopbac.jpg
Then maybe they should read something retro?? Rather than regressing the character we have??

And it's quite debatable, IMO, that everyone prefers Babs as Batgirl.
So being a sentient phone book is empowering. I'll have to remember that for my own writing endeavours.

But joking aside, how about letting them try to build upon her role by adding another layer into it, instead of getting miffed over a codename? I don't want to see her as Batgirl either, but I'm glad they might actually get her up and moving, and give her a real sense of omnipotence by giving her the option of going out in the field of need be, while still maintaining her status as Oracle.
Having functional legs is not a 'layer'. Part of the empowerment was about her overcoming her disability and they worked with that, and her quitting as Batgirl, to make her an independent character, her own person. Having her run around doesn't exactly add layers to that.

[Ben Reilly#6]

Having functional legs is not a 'layer'. Part of the empowerment was about her overcoming her disability and they worked with that, and her quitting as Batgirl, to make her an independent character, her own person. Having her run around doesn't exactly add layers to that.

I didn't say her having functional legs would add a layer, I'm saying that her getting over her seemingly self-imposed crutch would. How did quitting as Batgirl make her more independent? Last I remember, she quit because she couldn't take it anymore, and generally just felt useless. I'm sure she would've faded into obscurity if they didn't get the "bright" idea to turn her into Oracle.

Having her come to terms with her disability and choosing the Oracle identity was fine then, but now it's getting stale. Getting her mobility back, and choosing to remain as Oracle with a more expanded role, that would add something, at least to me.

[d newton]

Then maybe they should read something retro?? Rather than regressing the character we have??
What's "retro" about reading the continuing adventures of a cyber hacker? I mean, I like Cass even after finding out that people disliked her turning "evil" but shouldn't Babs be out there helping her fight crime?

[Seraku]

Exactly, Batgirl is a more vital role than Oraclethis doesn't even make sense.

Oracle is a key part of the entire organized superhero biz.

[Kiryu]

What's "retro" about reading the continuing adventures of a cyber hacker? I mean, I like Cass even after finding out that people disliked her turning "evil" but shouldn't Babs be out there helping her fight crime?

What could Babs possible do on the streets that measures up to what she has accomplished as Oracle? She's saved millions of lives, change countries, helped overthrow governments. How is it better for her to put on a costume and knock heads? How is she helping more by doing that then running BoP?

[Super Buddies Forever]

I'll only accept this change if Dan DiDio also forces Dick Grayson back into the short shorts. After all, that's the image the public associates with the character, right?

[Seraku]

I'll only accept this change if Dan DiDio also forces Dick Grayson back into the short shorts. After all, that's the image the public associates with the character, right?

I swear I will get my revenge for you putting that image in my head just now.

I SWEAR IT :mad:

[Captain Jim]

I'm amazed at the way this thread has digressed into a Babs vs. Cassie and Oracle vs. Batgirl thread.

DC has already decided what they're going to do; whatever the new Batgirl book is, it's already in the works.

Nobody's interesting in discussing any of these other new books besides Batgirl?

[Spiffy]

Why in the wide, wide, wide world of sports won't DC announce the creative teams? Its baffling, isn't it?
My assumption is that they don't want to be committed to specific creative teams yet--they want to be able to backtrack or replace someone if, ehem, "creative differences" pop up. They're starting to err on the side of caution, rather than pure marketing, after a few disasters. Nevertheless, they STILL want to be able to reap some early publicity, so their releasing the names of the books even if they could wind up changing tons of the details.

Nobody's interesting in discussing any of these other new books besides Batgirl?
Hey, maybe the possibility of Beechan getting his hands on Batgirl again--ANY Batgirl--terrifies people? :biggrin: So we're burning off nervous energy to avoid thinking about that by obsessing about Ye Olde Fate of Babs' Legs.

[Blight]

I'm amazed at the way this thread has digressed into a Babs vs. Cassie and Oracle vs. Batgirl thread.

DC has already decided what they're going to do; whatever the new Batgirl book is, it's already in the works.

Nobody's interesting in discussing any of these other new books besides Batgirl?

I think that's been every forums attitude actually. Every forum I've been on whenever discussing this has become just that. Honestly.. maybe that's what DC wants. But then again.. I be peeved like heck if Cassandra Cain isn't Batgirl anymore and Babs returns to the role.

[HopeLantern]

I don't really have an opinion on the Batgirl / Batwoman related titles. I probably won't get them but I do have another thought...

IF what has been predicted comes to pass, and Dick goes on to become the new Batman, and IF Damien indeed becomes the new Robin, and IF Jason Todd is revealed to be the new Red Robin... what happens to Tim Drake in all these books? My biggest area of, well not really concern, but confusion, I guess is that even with all the rumors swirling about the post BFTC lineup, and how Gotham will look, I feel as if Tim Drake is getting lost in the sauce. I for one haven't really heard anything about Tim post BFTC. Will he still be associated with the Teen Titans? Will it be HE instead of Dick now leading the Outsiders? In fact the only thing I know is that the BFTC is a "three way" fight (Tim, Dick and... Jason?? Not sure about that last one...) but I feel like the character is being stepped over right now in favor of the far gone conclusion that Dick becomes Batman. I, for one, do think that Dick is the only real natural choice to win BFTC... but that doesn't mean that Tim should be left out and forgotten in favor of Damien. I know a lot of things are up in the air right now... I guess I wish that from the descriptions of the titles coming out in June that there was some inkling of what becomes of Tim. He seems to be the piece that doesn't fit right now.

Sigh... this series can't come out fast enough.

[GDB]

In fact the only thing I know is that the BFTC is a "three way" fight (Tim, Dick and... Jason?? Not sure about that last one...)

If I had to guess, the three "teams" will be Dick's camp, Jason's camp, and Hush's camp. Dick will likely be backed by the good guys, including Tim, Selina, Gordon, and the euro knights. Jason's camp will likely consist of himself, Talia, Damian, and maybe Azrael. Hush's camp will likely have some of the more "strait-laced" villains, ones that would like to do petty crime with ease while "Batman" takes out their competition and the real loones.

[joemagnum611]

Do we really need a Robin and Red Robin? I'd be more enthused if he was at least named something different.

[nepenthes]

I don't really have an opinion on the Batgirl / Batwoman related titles. I probably won't get them but I do have another thought...

IF what has been predicted comes to pass, and Dick goes on to become the new Batman, and IF Damien indeed becomes the new Robin, and IF Jason Todd is revealed to be the new Red Robin... what happens to Tim Drake in all these books? My biggest area of, well not really concern, but confusion, I guess is that even with all the rumors swirling about the post BFTC lineup, and how Gotham will look, I feel as if Tim Drake is getting lost in the sauce. I for one haven't really heard anything about Tim post BFTC. Will he still be associated with the Teen Titans? Will it be HE instead of Dick now leading the Outsiders? In fact the only thing I know is that the BFTC is a "three way" fight (Tim, Dick and... Jason?? Not sure about that last one...) but I feel like the character is being stepped over right now in favor of the far gone conclusion that Dick becomes Batman. I, for one, do think that Dick is the only real natural choice to win BFTC... but that doesn't mean that Tim should be left out and forgotten in favor of Damien. I know a lot of things are up in the air right now... I guess I wish that from the descriptions of the titles coming out in June that there was some inkling of what becomes of Tim. He seems to be the piece that doesn't fit right now.

Sigh... this series can't come out fast enough.

hmm good question

Do we really need a Robin and Red Robin? I'd be more enthused if he was at least named something different.

if there IS indeed two Robins i'm sure this will be an issue that needs to be addressed. the double up. there'll be something very distinct between them.

[Spiffy]

I don't really have an opinion on the Batgirl / Batwoman related titles. I probably won't get them but I do have another thought...

IF what has been predicted comes to pass, and Dick goes on to become the new Batman, and IF Damien indeed becomes the new Robin, and IF Jason Todd is revealed to be the new Red Robin... what happens to Tim Drake in all these books? My biggest area of, well not really concern, but confusion, I guess is that even with all the rumors swirling about the post BFTC lineup, and how Gotham will look, I feel as if Tim Drake is getting lost in the sauce. I for one haven't really heard anything about Tim post BFTC. Will he still be associated with the Teen Titans? Will it be HE instead of Dick now leading the Outsiders? In fact the only thing I know is that the BFTC is a "three way" fight (Tim, Dick and... Jason?? Not sure about that last one...) but I feel like the character is being stepped over right now in favor of the far gone conclusion that Dick becomes Batman. I, for one, do think that Dick is the only real natural choice to win BFTC... but that doesn't mean that Tim should be left out and forgotten in favor of Damien. I know a lot of things are up in the air right now... I guess I wish that from the descriptions of the titles coming out in June that there was some inkling of what becomes of Tim. He seems to be the piece that doesn't fit right now.

Sigh... this series can't come out fast enough.
Of course Tim might not be "left out" as much as he might be worm food. They might be planning to do that to add a level of grief/guilt to Dick's "birth" as the new Batman--to add the kind of gravitas Bruce had with his parent's death behind him. Dick's own parents death has never really been "used" that way (yes, it motivated him to fight crime, but it didn't really make him "go dark" and obsessive the way a Batman probably needs to), so Tim biting the dust could give them a new opportunity to set that up. And of course, if people squeal too much, they'll just bring Tim back in two years.

[Ben Reilly#6]

Ugh, holy crap no. I mean, death's such a trivial thing these days, but no. Just no. I really hope we don't lose Tim for a year or two just to prove a point. Isn't the loss of Bruce, as well as Gotham going through (more) hell enough of a reason for Dick to become the new Batman?

[Captain Jim]

If I had to guess, the three "teams" will be Dick's camp, Jason's camp, and Hush's camp.

Hush won't be involved. This from the NYCC:

How involved in Battle for the Cowl is Hush? Daniel: Not in Battle for the Cowl. Marts: He'll be around in June. Tommy's in an interesting spot right now because he looks like Bruce Wayne, so that story will be told.

[Kiryu]

Of course Tim might not be "left out" as much as he might be worm food. They might be planning to do that to add a level of grief/guilt to Dick's "birth" as the new Batman--to add the kind of gravitas Bruce had with his parent's death behind him. Dick's own parents death has never really been "used" that way (yes, it motivated him to fight crime, but it didn't really make him "go dark" and obsessive the way a Batman probably needs to), so Tim biting the dust could give them a new opportunity to set that up. And of course, if people squeal too much, they'll just bring Tim back in two years.

If Dicks ends up under the Cowl I'd rather him not "go dark". I'd like to see a "new" Batman, not one of his kids pretending to be Bruce.