X-Men: Forever - News and Discussion

[Sean Whitmore]

LOL you people have a difficult time processing the concept of this series, don't you?

Not as hard a time as you seem to have reading a series of posts.

Claremont asked dude, "Why are there no old mutants?" And there are. Tons of them. He can rewrite things so they don't exist, that's perfectly fine, but it makes no sense for people to be responding, "Wow, what a great point he made."


this is a discussion for x-men fans.

Yeah, I realize I'm slumming, but I'm okay with that.


SEAN

[AcesX1X]

someone who wears a green lantern avatar has no business gloating about 'slumming' with that embarrassing attitude.

and anyway, it is a magnificent point. some of us are excited to see what the answer to claremont's question is.

jarrod, mystique does not count! she's a freak that stays young forever.

[jarrod]

someone who wears a green lantern avatar has no business gloating about 'slumming' with that embarrassing attitude.

and anyway, it is a magnificent point. some of us are excited to see what the answer to claremont's question is.

jarrod, mystique does not count! she's a freak that stays young forever.
You're not going to nuance yourself out of this one, wurm. I am already strapped in and you are late.

[Sean Whitmore]

jarrod, mystique does not count! she's a freak that stays young forever.

So Claremont's question was limited to mutants who just look old?


SEAN

[AcesX1X]

So Claremont's question was limited to mutants who just look old?


SEAN

he did not give specifics!

[darknessatnoon]

So Claremont's question was limited to mutants who just look old?


SEAN

I'm coming to think that it was, which just makes it all even more LOL.

[MartinRedmond]

I'm relieved Chris isn't a continuity nerd.

[Sean Whitmore]

I'm relieved Chris isn't a continuity nerd.

He's not? Since when?


SEAN

[The Thunderbird]

Is it possible that Claremont put Sabretooth on the team because he wants to make a metaphor for bestiality like his other sexual metaphors.

[darknessatnoon]

Is it possible that Claremont put Sabretooth on the team because he wants to make a metaphor for bestiality like his other sexual metaphors.

Beast allows him to do both at once.

[rojash]

Honestly, they had me at Rogue...

I'm fairly intrigued by the idea behind this book, but I do agree with a lot of the other posters here when you look at Claremont's post-X-Men #3 track record. It has potential up the wazoo, that's for sure, but it could easily go in one of two directions.

With the exceptions of Kitty/Lockheed, Sabretooth and Beast, I think the art looks pretty good. As much as I like the Lee designed costumes, the promo art may be indicative of something that happens in issue #9, not necessarily a change that's made in the first issue.

[Blade X]

I think he means Purge V

Yep, that's exactly who I'm talking about.

[Blade X]

This kid Purge? http://www.uncannyxmen.net/glossary/showentry.asp?fldAuto=1951

Does he have finger claws and toe claws like Sabretooth has?

yep, that's the guy I was talking about. And IIRC, he does have finger claws.

[steve2275]

the lack of COLOSSUS dissapoints me

[steviefresh]

In some regards I'm intrigued to see where this goes, but the roster isn't that great in my opinion and my god the costumes are freaking hideous! That Phoenix costume is fugly to the max and Rogue's is almost as bad.

But that said, I'm still totally buying at least the first few issues. I mean, it could be awesome.

[ReaderX]

3 things come to mind:
"What the devil?"
"Now it's my turn!"
"Nuff Said!"

I expect to see these a LOT, at least once per issue.

[Stephane Garrelie]

LOL you people have a difficult time processing the concept of this series, don't you?

nothing is canon unless CC has written it.

if you want to continue sourcing fanfic, please keep it away from x-men forever, OK? this is a discussion for x-men fans.

:smile: :evilsmile: :tongue: Thats close to how it is for me. with an exception: What was writen before Claremont took over.
Stan Lee/Jack Kirby, Roy Thomas, etc... & Len Wein are canon too.
But what we got after Claremont left in 1991?
Yes, FOR ME, it is not really the x-men.
Also the concept of the 90s comics looked often more like Tv Cartoons than like what used to be the classic form of Marvel Comic books. Just a little bit more violent than what we used to have on tv. But no depth anymore, nothing that was close to literature anymore.
In 2000 Revolution had Claremont back, but what he wrote was nothing like the universe of the X-Men. The characters were here, but this new universe in which they evolved wasn't theirs. And wasn't very interesting. It was decent, readable, but not what i wanted. A few good issues though.
Joe Q era: Better writers than in the 90s, but here too the concept was altered. Not as much as in Revolution, but Morrison stuff was too different from the real world to really be the X-Men. It looked too much like SF. Mutants where everywhere and almost everybody was mutant or knew mutants. That may be interesting or not, but it wasn't the classic concept of the X-Men. That was too far away & that was about something else. And the second mutation thing? .... i preffer to say nothing about that other that i didn't like it.

Claremont stuff from this era takes place in this altered universe. I lixed X-Treme X-Men, i liked too the uncanny run with Alan Davis, but it is an altered universe, the one of Queseda' era. It isn't really Claremont's universe or Classic Marvel anymore. No matter the qualities it can have under either Claremont or other good writers.

So yes, X-Men: Forever is the occasion to have the real X-Men back, true to the classic concept, and to have it by the writer who wrote them best and built most of their universe.
Other writers could have writen the X-Men right after Claremont, but because of Bob Harras it just didn't happen. It seems that both Harras & Perelman where looking for something else. Quick money.

[Sean Whitmore]

It seems that both Harras & Perelman where looking for something else. Quick money.

Which makes them a rare breed; comics being an industry that generally eschews profit.


SEAN

[Stephane Garrelie]

Which makes them a rare breed; comics being an industry that generally eschews profit.


SEANTo look for profit is fine, but there is a difference between doing money in building something commercialy and artisticly viable and doing it as fast as possible by any cheap means possible.

Now that doesn't mean that there couldn't be here and there some enjoyable stories.

[Sean Whitmore]

To look for profit is fine, but there is a difference between doing money in building something commercialy and artisticly viable and doing it as fast as possible by any cheap means possible.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, though. Right after Claremont left, which is the period you referred to, the X-Books had top artistic talent and were introducing concepts and characters that became incredibly popular and are still around to this day. If you didn't like some or all of it, that's perfectly understandable, but in what way was it fast and cheap?


SEAN

[rojash]

I'm not sure what you're referring to, though. Right after Claremont left, which is the period you referred to, the X-Books had top artistic talent and were introducing concepts and characters that became incredibly popular and are still around to this day. If you didn't like some or all of it, that's perfectly understandable, but in what way was it fast and cheap?


SEAN

While I agree with you, I think the haphazard nature and direction of the stories, as well as the rushed "fill-in" feel contribute to that impression.

[darknessatnoon]

While I agree with you, I think the haphazard nature and direction of the stories, as well as the rushed "fill-in" feel contribute to that impression.

Claremont had just given Jean Grey tentacles which she used to caress rats in the sewers. Give me haphazard and rushed over that any day.

[Stephane Garrelie]

I'm not sure what you're referring to, though. Right after Claremont left, which is the period you referred to, the X-Books had top artistic talent and were introducing concepts and characters that became incredibly popular and are still around to this day. If you didn't like some or all of it, that's perfectly understandable, but in what way was it fast and cheap?


SEAN

Harras choose writers that could not say no to him, newcomers like Scott Lobdell (which doesn't mean that i did not enjoy some of his stories. It didn't had the depth of Claremont stuff, but it was decent adventure work. I liked X-Men 300, and also the following issue with Scott & Jean in autumn. There were some good scenes and JRjr' art was great.). Even Fabian Nicieza who just got a decent success with New Warriors wasn't a very well instaled writer. John Byrne, for his short run, barely scripted over Jim Lee. So it looks like Bob Harras was looking for cool (and sometime good) art, and overly simple stories. Fast food comics if you want.
For the characters: Bishop, though being forced on editorial by the marketing people is i agree an enjoyable and popular character, Cable, introduced a bit earlier, or Deadpool are too. Yet, one can think they lack a bit of substance and can be summed up in one word: "Badass". They look cool and are fun, but in the end they are just moving bodies. With a writer like Chris Claremont, Alan Moore, David Michelinie or say Louise Simonson (had she writen Cable longer), maybe they would have had more depth. Claremont gave some flesh to Bishop in X-Treme X-Men, and what i read of Cable/Deadpool by Nicieza was fun and well writen. But this came in the 2000s, not in the 90s and in relatively "under the radar" books.

[Sean Whitmore]

Harras choose writers that could not say no to him, newcomers like Scott Lobdell (which doesn't mean that i did not enjoy some of his stories. It didn't had the depth of Claremont stuff, but it was decent adventure work. I liked X-Men 300, and also the following issue with Scott & Jean in autumn. There were some good scenes and JRjr' art was great.). Even Fabian Nicieza who just got a decent success with New Warriors wasn't a very well instaled writer. John Byrne, for his short run, barely scripted over Jim Lee. So it looks like Bob Harras was looking for cool (and sometime good) art, and overly simple stories. Fast food comics if you want.

A little harsh, I think, but I get what you're saying.


SEAN

[jarrod]

3 things come to mind:
"What the devil?"
"Now it's my turn!"
"Nuff Said!"

I expect to see these a LOT, at least once per issue.
I miss the old Claremontisms. The world could do with more rabbiting, yum and boss these days. :(

[ComiXFanBoy]

hmm i guess marvel finally realized that claremont's writing isnt what it used to be so they want to turn the clock back. im going to get this because i love grummets art and this era of x-men are my favorites but i'll keep an open mind to it

[Stephen Moreno]

Harras choose writers that could not say no to him, newcomers like Scott Lobdell (which doesn't mean that i did not enjoy some of his stories. It didn't had the depth of Claremont stuff, but it was decent adventure work. I liked X-Men 300, and also the following issue with Scott & Jean in autumn. There were some good scenes and JRjr' art was great.). Even Fabian Nicieza who just got a decent success with New Warriors wasn't a very well instaled writer. John Byrne, for his short run, barely scripted over Jim Lee. So it looks like Bob Harras was looking for cool (and sometime good) art, and overly simple stories. Fast food comics if you want.
For the characters: Bishop, though being forced on editorial by the marketing people is i agree an enjoyable and popular character, Cable, introduced a bit earlier, or Deadpool are too. Yet, one can think they lack a bit of substance and can be summed up in one word: "Badass". They look cool and are fun, but in the end they are just moving bodies. With a writer like Chris Claremont, Alan Moore, David Michelinie or say Louise Simonson (had she writen Cable longer), maybe they would have had more depth. Claremont gave some flesh to Bishop in X-Treme X-Men, and what i read of Cable/Deadpool by Nicieza was fun and well writen. But this came in the 2000s, not in the 90s and in relatively "under the radar" books.

I disagree completely with this arguement, that Claremont and Company are the more intelligent writers and by default so are the readers who prefer them over any other. Give me a break.

[MartinRedmond]

hmm i guess marvel finally realized that claremont's writing isnt what it used to be so they want to turn the clock back. im going to get this because i love grummets art and this era of x-men are my favorites but i'll keep an open mind to it

How is this different from the Ultimate books? Tons of writers have gotten a deal like this in the past. It's the same everytime they relaunch the Doom Patrol or Legion at DC, no writer wants the baggage.

I disagree completely with this arguement, that Claremont and Company are the more intelligent writers and by default so are the readers who prefer them over any other. Give me a break.

Accepting the truth hurts, but you'd be making a step in the right direction.

[Stephen Moreno]

Accepting the truth hurts, but you'd be making a step in the right direction.

Head up to that cliff and take a step in the right direction.

[Pixie_Solanas]

I miss the old Claremontisms. The world could do with more rabbiting, yum and boss these days. :(

The old man loves his "What the Devil?"

I think I even saw a few well-placed "What the devils?!?" in the Big Hero 6 mini. Do they even use that phrase over there in Japan? In Claremont-world, it don't matter!

[Blade X]

You know after thinking about it for a while, I think that isn't Purge or Sabretooth on the cover, but is Wolverine in his "adamantimum leaking through his pours and into all of his hair" resurrected form. CC has gone on record as saying that after Wolverine is resurrected by the Hand, his healing factor kicks into overdrive and causes the adamantium to seep through the pours in his skin and into every single hair on his body. He said Wolverine's hair would turn silver because of the adamantium in it. And yeah, I know that his hair is blonde on that cover, but that could be a coloring mistake.

[Stephen Moreno]

You know after thinking about it for a while, I think that isn't Purge or Sabretooth on the cover, but is Wolverine in his "adamantimum leaking through his pours and into all of his hair" resurrected form. CC has gone on record as saying that after Wolverine is resurrected by the Hand, his healing factor kicks into overdrive and causes the adamantium to seep through the pours in his skin and into every single hair on his body. He said Wolverine's hair would turn silver because of the adamantium in it. And yeah, I know that his hair is blonde on that cover, but that could be a coloring mistake.

Sounds like a brilliant idea, if only I were smart enough to understand the significance in it.

[Beast]

You know after thinking about it for a while, I think that isn't Purge or Sabretooth on the cover, but is Wolverine in his "adamantimum leaking through his pours and into all of his hair" resurrected form. CC has gone on record as saying that after Wolverine is resurrected by the Hand, his healing factor kicks into overdrive and causes the adamantium to seep through the pours in his skin and into every single hair on his body. He said Wolverine's hair would turn silver because of the adamantium in it. And yeah, I know that his hair is blonde on that cover, but that could be a coloring mistake.
Or everyone is reading too much into a cover that probably doesn't mean anything.

How often have we seen covers that have nothing to do with the contents of the book.

Including Wolverine covers where the character isn't even in the issue.

[jarrod]

Actually, which came first, the Jaspers Warp or DOFP? The similarities in both are kinda eerie, I can understand why CC later wanted to link the ideas.

[Blade X]

Or everyone is reading too much into a cover that probably doesn't mean anything.

How often have we seen covers that have nothing to do with the contents of the book.

Including Wolverine covers where the character isn't even in the issue.

True, but it's still fun to speculate.:smile:

[CmX]

I miss the old Claremontisms. The world could do with more rabbiting, yum and boss these days. :(

He was using "yum" a bit during his third Uncanny run haha gross.

How about throwing in a few "busters" ! We haven't seen him use that in a min.

[jarrod]

He was using "yum" a bit during his third Uncanny run haha gross.

How about throwing in a few "busters" ! We haven't seen him use that in a min.
lol.

It takes me back to early Excalibur... Ray couldn't get through three panels without some douchebag assaulting her with Yums. <3 <3

[Disco Jess Minge]

He used the phrase, "to make amends" A LOT.

I think it was used twice in one issue.

[Paploo the Ewok]

I know he's not everyone's fave writer, but I'm looking forward to it, and it'll be interesting, and pretty easy to get into. It'll be interesting to see how Claremont tackles stuff, and I suspect we'll be seeing new and different interpretations of characters and stories he'd left behind, like say...
-Gambit, who only hooked up with Rogue after he left. Will this be a RemiN'Rogue-less universe?
-Mister Sinister, whose original origin was totally different...
-Jean Grey, who from that cover image looks a little kooky..... at that time, she'd just merged all her assorted "selves" into one, and they never really looked into what that meant until Morrison's run and the return of the Phoenix.
- Angry Kitty- hey look, it's 2000 again :) lol

Also, probably means lots of dead folks'll be around [Moira anyone?] while lots of living folks might be dead.....it's still rooted in classic X-men stories, while having lots of freedom. Should be fun, especially with the biweekly schedule.

[david r]

You know after thinking about it for a while, I think that isn't Purge or Sabretooth on the cover, but is Wolverine in his "adamantimum leaking through his pours and into all of his hair" resurrected form. CC has gone on record as saying that after Wolverine is resurrected by the Hand, his healing factor kicks into overdrive and causes the adamantium to seep through the pours in his skin and into every single hair on his body. He said Wolverine's hair would turn silver because of the adamantium in it. And yeah, I know that his hair is blonde on that cover, but that could be a coloring mistake.

I've wondered that too. Also, the mention of Magneto and another X-character dying early on. This would fit right in with Wolverine's death, which were in Claremont's original 1991 plans.
\
There's one snag with the Dark Wolverine story being told here. Claremont says "Dead means dead" and if he really MEANS IT, then Wolverine cannot return from the dead to become a Hand assassin.

I think it's going to be a mix of old ideas, and new ideas. Which is cool with me.

One thing I hope gets resolved is the Outback X-Men/Australia period.
Claremont left so much unresolved. I hope he sets aside one story arc to wrap up the Outback and Gateway loose ends. :smile:

[RolandJP]

Beast allows him to do both at once.

he heh you said "do"

[david r]

As for New Exiles, Claremont's heart wasn't in it. That's my belief on why it was so subpar. How do you explain the rapid fire excitement of "End of Greys" and then New Exiles. Simple, Claremont was passionate about "End of Greys" and the aborted aftermath, and not terribly passionate about a New Exiles.

Claremont's heart will be in this new series. This may be the best place possible now.

[xgeek52]

it's that way for all writers...

the last thing i truely liked about what he's done recently was his the end series...

[david r]

Another exciting idea is if Claremont wants to use Captain Britain, there's no one to say "No, you can't use him, we're using him". Or if Claremont/Grummett want to use Banshee or Forge or Captain America, or whoever, there's no one saying "No, you can't do that!"

What's great about this book, is Grummett and Claremont can use any character they want, with no restrictions, because this book is outside continuity. It seems to me that gives X-Men Forever tremendous freedom. I am looking forward to it. :smile:

[MartinRedmond]

Other than it being a bad guy's base of operation. Sounds to ME, like the book was pretty much closed on the Outback by X-Tinction Agenda.

The X-Men took over a ghost town while they were lying low, the bad guys came back to reclaim it, X-Men ran with their tail between their legs, moved on to better lives.

[That JonoGuy]

Another exciting idea is if Claremont wants to use Captain Britain, there's no one to say "No, you can't use him, we're using him". Or if Claremont/Grummett want to use Banshee or Forge or Captain America, or whoever, there's no one saying "No, you can't do that!"

What's great about this book, is Grummett and Claremont can use any character they want, with no restrictions, because this book is outside continuity. It seems to me that gives X-Men Forever tremendous freedom. I am looking forward to it. :smile:

Well, here's hoping he makes use of Banshee. I'd love to see him again. Plus, I love Grummett's take on him.

[mbm721]

Well, here's hoping he makes use of Banshee. I'd love to see him again. Plus, I love Grummett's take on him.

i saw some of the penciled pages at nycc last week. i asked claremont if that was banshee that i was looking at, and he quickly told me "no, that is magneto". he wasn't being mean at all; I don't remember what magneto's hair looked like back in 91, its changed over the years. But im betting that banshee will be in it.

[chastmastr]

Also, probably means lots of dead folks'll be around [Moira anyone?]


Mariko! Mariko Mariko Mariko!

And the happily-ever-after ending Logan deserves with her...

:smile:

[Sean Whitmore]

Mariko! Mariko Mariko Mariko!

And the happily-ever-after ending Logan deserves with her...

:smile:

I'm rather curious how that'll play out myself.


SEAN

[Blade X]

I've wondered that too. Also, the mention of Magneto and another X-character dying early on. This would fit right in with Wolverine's death, which were in Claremont's original 1991 plans.
\
There's one snag with the Dark Wolverine story being told here. Claremont says "Dead means dead" and if he really MEANS IT, then Wolverine cannot return from the dead to become a Hand assassin.

I think it's going to be a mix of old ideas, and new ideas. Which is cool with me.


I don't think CC's "Dead means dead" stance is as rigid as he wants us to believe. I think it's more of a case of SOME deaths being permanent (Magneto) and other deaths being either temporary or "fake outs" (Wolverine). I think CC is trying to install the sense/feeling of "Anything can happen" in this book and in the hearts of fans.

I also think (and hope) that XMF is a mix of both old and new ideas. For example, I don't want Gambit and Sinister to simply be a clones of an evil 80 year old kid, but clones (with some of the kid's DNA mixed in) of actual mutants. I don't want Wolverine to have all of the adamantium ripped out of his body and his claws ripped out and replaced by super strong bone claws, but I do want MOST of the adamantium ripped from his body EXCEPT from his forearms and claws. I also like the idea of his healing factor being pretty much shot/done/kaput after the adamantium is ripped from his body.

[Flâneur]

I don't think CC's "Dead means dead" stance is as rigid as he wants us to believe. I think it's more of a case of SOME deaths being permanent (Magneto) and other deaths being either temporary or "fake outs" (Wolverine). I think CC is trying to install the sense/feeling of "Anything can happen" in this book and in the hearts of fans.
This seems to be true, after all when dead means dead was the MU rule, CC still tried to resurrect Psylocke. He probably only means it in the 'dead means dead unless I intend to resurrect them' which is the same with any lengthy run, after all, there'll be no editorial edict or another writer to resurrect the characters so it's implicitly true.

[Frank]

Well, here's hoping he makes use of Banshee. I'd love to see him again. Plus, I love Grummett's take on him.

I hope he uses Banshee and Forge. I loved their duo just before X-Men 1 came up.

[Alex A Sanchez]

I think I just found the title that I am going to replace Uncanny with. I hate the idea of switching their costumes so soon, but otherwise I want to see where this book will go.

If this is successful, I wonder if Marvel will do it with more title? Because the book I really want to see is X-Factor: Forever, where Peter David and Larry Stroman pick up where they left off after X-Factor (vol. 1) #89. Their current reunion did not work so well, but that was because the mood and tone of the current series is very different from the original.

[Tilt]

Another exciting idea is if Claremont wants to use Captain Britain, there's no one to say "No, you can't use him, we're using him". Or if Claremont/Grummett want to use Banshee or Forge or Captain America, or whoever, there's no one saying "No, you can't do that!"

What's great about this book, is Grummett and Claremont can use any character they want, with no restrictions, because this book is outside continuity. It seems to me that gives X-Men Forever tremendous freedom. I am looking forward to it. :smile:

That really is going to be a cool aspect to have going on, I hope CC plays with things like Brand New Day and Civil War in the Claremontverse on occasion. It will be crazy and fun if he starts killing off heroes left and right, mutant and non...maybe has a war or two with different stellar empires rising and falling..or just falling. With all the lasting consequences of course.

[Sean Whitmore]

It will be crazy and fun if he starts killing off heroes left and right, mutant and non...maybe has a war or two with different stellar empires rising and falling..or just falling. With all the lasting consequences of course.

I don't feel the same way, honestly. Nothing turns me off of a "What If", "Elseworlds", parallel reality, etc faster than seeing characters being killed wholesale.

Or, hell, the same even goes for a mainstream book. Remember New X-Men right after M-Day? Godawful.


SEAN

[rojash]

It will be crazy and fun if he starts killing off heroes left and right, mutant and non...maybe has a war or two with different stellar empires rising and falling..or just falling. With all the lasting consequences of course.

Wholesale slaughter is never appealing :/

I do, however, like the idea of there being a lot more risk and possible consequence in the new title. Considering how risky their job description is, I'm surprised more X-Men aren't kicking the bucket. If it can bring more tension and drama to the stories, I'm all for people staying dead... just as long as we don't get more people like Lifeguard as replacements.

And Rogue stays alive!

[Omega Alpha]

I don't feel the same way, honestly. Nothing turns me off of a "What If", "Elseworlds", parallel reality, etc faster than seeing characters being killed wholesale.

Or, hell, the same even goes for a mainstream book. Remember New X-Men right after M-Day? Godawful.


SEAN

I agree with that, but I don't think CC will begin to kill everyone. Only the characters he hates or don't seem to care about, like Iceman, Cyclops, Dazzler, etc, to make more room for the Sages and Slipstreams of the world.

[darknessatnoon]

I agree with that, but I don't think CC will begin to kill everyone. Only the characters he hates or don't seem to care about, like Iceman, Cyclops, Dazzler, etc, to make more room for the Sages and Slipstreams of the world.

So what? Bad characters die. Better ones replace them.

[Leirus]

So what? Bad characters die. Better ones replace them.


You can not seriously defend Slipstream. If you do, I will think you just like Sage because her name starts with "S".

[DrDoom616]

So, is this an alternate reality????

[timbox]

So, is this an alternate reality????

No, this is corrected reality.

[xgeek52]

*cocks eyebrow*

i don't think corrected reality is the right phrase, though i would accept it in place of something else...

it's more a, uhm, claremont reality had he been allowed to continue...

[Omega Alpha]

So, is this an alternate reality????

Yes. In other words, it's irrelevant.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Yes. In other words, it's irrelevant.

On the contrary. This makes everything else irrelevant.

[DrDoom616]

Please don't tell me this is the X-men's version of Amazing Spider-man One More Day!!!!!!

If it is an alternat reality, I can live with that.

But if it is the new continuity, making everything in Uncanny X-men, X-men and indeed every other series since as though they didn't happen, I will not be a happy bunny at all.

[timbox]

On the contrary. This makes everything else irrelevant.

Exactly. Marvel realized what a mess the X-verse is, so they’re retconning everything and letting CC fix it all.

[DrDoom616]

Exactly. Marvel realized what a mess the X-verse is, so they’re retconning everything and letting CC fix it all.

NNNnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[darknessatnoon]

You can not seriously defend Slipstream. If you do, I will think you just like Sage because her name starts with "S".

I didn't see his name when I quoted.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Exactly. Marvel realized what a mess the X-verse is, so they’re retconning everything and letting CC fix it all.

But without demons, so Christians can continue to purchase.

[timbox]

But without demons, so Christians can continue to purchase.

Correct. This isn’t ridiculous like OMD/BND, this is just natural and sin-free.

[DrDoom616]

This looks more like Age Of Apocalypse than anything else

[Tilt]

I don't feel the same way, honestly. Nothing turns me off of a "What If", "Elseworlds", parallel reality, etc faster than seeing characters being killed wholesale.

Or, hell, the same even goes for a mainstream book. Remember New X-Men right after M-Day? Godawful.


SEAN

Normally I'd agree but for some reason one of the only times I really love CC these days is when he's killing. Like the Mutant Massacre or End of Greys..it's one of those times when his stories don't come off as too hokey or immature, at least since 2000.

The other reason is I don't see this book going on for too long so we might as well have a high death count at least for the sake of making us feel more concern for the survivors and the whole risk factor for all involved.

[david r]

I reread UXM #94, Chris Claremont's first issue. It's kind of amazing to read it now, knowing in the back of your mind ALL the stories, and ALL the adventures that are to follow it. SO MUCH STUFF! Not just in 17 years of UNCANNY, but also in New Mutants, Excalibur and Wolverine. You add up all the Annuals, specials and minis, and Claremont's X-Men run is really an accomplishment.

Anything that can further that experience I'm all for. And X-Men Forever may be it! :smile:

[MartinRedmond]

No, this is corrected reality.

That is correct.

[Stephane Garrelie]

I've wondered that too. Also, the mention of Magneto and another X-character dying early on. This would fit right in with Wolverine's death, which were in Claremont's original 1991 plans.
\
There's one snag with the Dark Wolverine story being told here. Claremont says "Dead means dead" and if he really MEANS IT, then Wolverine cannot return from the dead to become a Hand assassin.

I think it's going to be a mix of old ideas, and new ideas. Which is cool with me.

One thing I hope gets resolved is the Outback X-Men/Australia period.
Claremont left so much unresolved. I hope he sets aside one story arc to wrap up the Outback and Gateway loose ends. :smile:I too think it may be Wolverine. Yet for the Dark Wolverine stuff, i think that Claremont may not do it exactly as originaly intended if at all. Some of the plots he intended are known from the readers of his interviews, of CBR & of Comixfan; So more probably Claremont may include elements from those plotlines, but mixed with new stuff that he intends to write about today. We are not in 1991, and neither are the X-Men of Forever. They are the people we left in 1991 and the universe we left in 1991, but for them like for us and for Claremont, it is 2009 and i don't doub't we will have 2009 stories. The difference with the regular Marvel stuff we get today is that it will be true to what the Marvel Universe and Claremont's X-Men used to be.

[Shaid O Gray]

Normally I'd agree but for some reason one of the only times I really love CC these days is when he's killing. Like the Mutant Massacre or End of Greys..it's one of those times when his stories don't come off as too hokey or immature, at least since 2000.

Yes, but some of his deaths in say, X-Men The End were awful. Rogue's death was a writer's joke. Sinister has never killed out of nothing but sheer pettiness. (Let alone with a knife. And there's no way Mystique could kill Sinister with nothing but a knife, but that's a different point). It was so obviously shoved in to have the Big Dramatic Death Scene Like In The Movies(TM) and it felt cheap and...well, like fanfic.

I really, really, really hope he's not going to go that route here....

The other reason is I don't see this book going on for too long so we might as well have a high death count at least for the sake of making us feel more concern for the survivors and the whole risk factor for all involved.

If they'd started this book in 1999 it would've caused orgasms of happiness. (For how long is a whole different story, looking at the Neo thing, but you know what I mean). But now? Yeah, you may be right. I'm really curious what this is going to be like and how it will be received.

[Stephen Moreno]

Please don't tell me this is the X-men's version of Amazing Spider-man One More Day!!!!!!

If it is an alternat reality, I can live with that.

But if it is the new continuity, making everything in Uncanny X-men, X-men and indeed every other series since as though they didn't happen, I will not be a happy bunny at all.

Did you read the interview at the front of the thread? It explains exactly what this is.

[ZNOP]

Sean Whitmore...

That is the coolest avatar I, have ever seen yet:smile:

[chastmastr]

One thing I don't agree with here is the mindset of people who say that if it's an alternate reality to whatever Marvel happens to be doing in its mainstream titles, it's "irrelevant." I prefer the alternate continuities to current 616 stuff by an order of magnitude or more, so to me they're far more "relevant" -- and often more seamlessly fit with older stories to make a complete, consistent whole saga of stories -- than whatever the latest crossover event happens to be.

I've been beating my head against the wall the last few years with every new "revelation" about most of the main characters in the Marvel Universe, X-Men and otherwise, on the grounds that it just doesn't make any sense. It's not just that I don't agree with the decision of Peter Parker to make a deal with Mephisto -- it's that whatever bad or even immoral decisions Peter might choose, this one is wildly out of character. (Killing the Kingpin in a moment of emotional rage and grief would have been much more in character. It might have changed Peter forever to cross that line, but it still makes more sense.) It's not just that I don't care for the idea of Wolverine being either a really bad guy, and/or controlled as a weapon for decades and decades rather than a brief time brainwashed by Weapon X -- it's that the whole nature of the character as he's been depicted for decades goes completely against that. I find what they (and Xavier, and Tony Stark, and a host of others) are being turned into not only loathsome, but ludicrous.

So to me the continuities which fit with both the heroic ideals I care about, and the way the characters have basically been written for their whole histories, are much more "relevant" than whether they fit with whatever thing the latest crop of trendy writers have decided to shoehorn into their backstories and their current storylines that make up the bulk of the 616 universe right now.

David

[Darth Logan]

Please don't tell me this is the X-men's version of Amazing Spider-man One More Day!!!!!!

If it is an alternat reality, I can live with that.

But if it is the new continuity, making everything in Uncanny X-men, X-men and indeed every other series since as though they didn't happen, I will not be a happy bunny at all.

Don't worry. It IS an alternate reality. All the CC lovers are just fooling themselves.

[Anodyne]

Count me as one of those who are looking forward to the new series, but color me confuzzled. On the one hand, the first issue of X-Men Forever will be set in 2009. On the other hand, it begins right where X-Men #3 left off in 1991. Someone please clarify.:confused:

[chastmastr]

Well, I think we have two likely possibilities: either (1) it is picking up where X-Men 1-3 left off, but treating it as if it were taking place in 2009 (the whole "sliding timescale" thing which treats Fantastic Four #1 as being roughly 10 years ago or a little more), which I would not like as much as (2), it picks up after X-Men 1-3 in 1991, and then shows elements of how things have progressed from then till now in this continuity, jumping ahead to 2009. I'd prefer that much more, as well as perhaps flashback issues filling in the gaps over time.

David

[Disco Jess Minge]

Is it ever possible for Claremont to be clear about his work? I don't think so.

[MartinRedmond]

I think he just meant that it won't be set into 1992 technology and fashions. Nobody in it will be listening to FaithNoMore, except for Sabertooth.

[Stephane Garrelie]

Count me as one of those who are looking forward to the new series, but color me confuzzled. On the one hand, the first issue of X-Men Forever will be set in 2009. On the other hand, it begins right where X-Men #3 left off in 1991. Someone please clarify.:confused:
In the 70s, Roy Thomas instored a rule saying that no matter the year in the real world, the Marvel Universe was supposed to have started 10 years earlier. ex:if we were in 1978, then it was 1968, if we were 1980, then 1970. That was a way to explain both the age of the characters and the many adventures they got sometime "years" earlier.

If we apply something like this here, then Claremont's original run took place in the last ten years, and the events of X-Men 1-3, a few months ago. In one of the interviews about X-Men Forever (Wizard's?) Claremont says that X-Men 1-3 takes now place in early 2009 or late 2008, a few months before the events of X-Men: Forever #1.

[Joe Franklin]

Don't worry. It IS an alternate reality. All the CC lovers are just fooling themselves.

I'm not interested in this because of Claremont, I'm interested because of Sabretooth.

If Creed is not in the book, I won't be buying it.

[AcesX1X]

In the 70s, Roy Thomas instored a rule saying that no matter the year in the real world, the Marvel Universe was supposed to have started 10 years earlier. ex:if we were in 1978, then it was 1968, if we were 1980, then 1970. That was a way to explain both the age of the characters and the many adventures they got sometime "years" earlier.

If we apply something like this here, then Claremont's original run took place in the last ten years, and the events of X-Men 1-3, a few months ago. In one of the interviews about X-Men Forever (Wizard's?) Claremont says that X-Men 1-3 takes now place in early 2009 or late 2008, a few months before the events of X-Men: Forever #1.

great. i'm glad we have that cleared up. i, for one, am eager to get things back on track.

[Blade X]

I don't feel the same way, honestly. Nothing turns me off of a "What If", "Elseworlds", parallel reality, etc faster than seeing characters being killed wholesale.

Or, hell, the same even goes for a mainstream book. Remember New X-Men right after M-Day? Godawful.


SEAN

My feelings exactly. Just say "no" to wholesale slaughter.

[Sean Whitmore]

My feelings exactly. Just say "no" to wholesale slaughter.

Think of the children!


SEAN

[Tilt]

My feelings exactly. Just say "no" to wholesale slaughter.

To each their own. I feel it is best for the characters themselves to have been killed and thus saved from being turned into lesbian dinosaurs with tentacles that get into heavy s/m and are perpetually possessed by outside forces. If we can keep the characters from having such a horrible fate by all means let them live, of course.

[Blade X]

I too think it may be Wolverine. Yet for the Dark Wolverine stuff, i think that Claremont may not do it exactly as originaly intended if at all. Some of the plots he intended are known from the readers of his interviews, of CBR & of Comixfan; So more probably Claremont may include elements from those plotlines, but mixed with new stuff that he intends to write about today. We are not in 1991, and neither are the X-Men of Forever. They are the people we left in 1991 and the universe we left in 1991, but for them like for us and for Claremont, it is 2009 and i don't doub't we will have 2009 stories. The difference with the regular Marvel stuff we get today is that it will be true to what the Marvel Universe and Claremont's X-Men used to be.

Not to mention the fact that the whole "Dark Wolverine" story has been done at least twice before already when Wolverine worked for Apocalypse as the new Death and the whole ENEMY OF THE STATE storyline by Millar when Wolverine was an assassin of the Hand (and I still think Millar stole that idea from CC).

[MartinRedmond]

He better ditch that storyline. This is X-MEN Forever. Marvel's published enough Wolverinecentric crap.

[Sean Whitmore]

To each their own. I feel it is best for the characters themselves to have been killed and thus saved from being turned into lesbian dinosaurs with tentacles that get into heavy s/m and are perpetually possessed by outside forces. If we can keep the characters from having such a horrible fate by all means let them live, of course.

There's many a slip 'twixt the dead and the lesbian dinosaur.

...or something.


SEAN

[Blade X]

Count me as one of those who are looking forward to the new series, but color me confuzzled. On the one hand, the first issue of X-Men Forever will be set in 2009. On the other hand, it begins right where X-Men #3 left off in 1991. Someone please clarify.:confused:

Simply put, MOST comic stories are meant to be contemporary and take place in the present day. So X-MEN #3 actually happen today in 2009 and not in 1991. Just like FANTASTIC FOUR #1 happened 7 to 10 years ago and not 48 years ago.

[Joe Franklin]

He better ditch that storyline. This is X-MEN Forever. Marvel's published enough Wolverinecentric crap.


Wolverine is the X-Men. HTH.:wink:

[Alex A Sanchez]

He better ditch that storyline. This is X-MEN Forever. Marvel's published enough Wolverinecentric crap.


NNNnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Relax, it's an alternate reality (except for those of us that would like to consider it the real reality). Seeing as how CC wrote most of the X-Men's history and made them the world's premier super-team, and not Bob Harris, it is very reasonable to consider Grant Morrison, Scott Lobdell, Ed Brubaker, etc. to be an alternate reality. Even IF it was a really good alternate reality (like All-Star Superman, for example).

[Anodyne]

In the 70s, Roy Thomas instored a rule saying that no matter the year in the real world, the Marvel Universe was supposed to have started 10 years earlier. ex:if we were in 1978, then it was 1968, if we were 1980, then 1970. That was a way to explain both the age of the characters and the many adventures they got sometime "years" earlier.

If we apply something like this here, then Claremont's original run took place in the last ten years, and the events of X-Men 1-3, a few months ago. In one of the interviews about X-Men Forever (Wizard's?) Claremont says that X-Men 1-3 takes now place in early 2009 or late 2008, a few months before the events of X-Men: Forever #1.

Simply put, MOST comic stories are meant to be contemporary and take place in the present day. So X-MEN #3 actually happen today in 2009 and not in 1991. Just like FANTASTIC FOUR #1 happened 7 to 10 years ago and not 48 years ago.

Ah, the old Sliding Timescale. Thanks, guys! :smile:

[Shaid O Gray]

In the 70s, Roy Thomas instored a rule saying that no matter the year in the real world, the Marvel Universe was supposed to have started 10 years earlier. ex:if we were in 1978, then it was 1968, if we were 1980, then 1970. That was a way to explain both the age of the characters and the many adventures they got sometime "years" earlier.

If we apply something like this here, then Claremont's original run took place in the last ten years, and the events of X-Men 1-3, a few months ago. In one of the interviews about X-Men Forever (Wizard's?) Claremont says that X-Men 1-3 takes now place in early 2009 or late 2008, a few months before the events of X-Men: Forever #1.

Thanks for that. Very interesting. Somehow I'd never heard of that. Usually it's the 'Marvel time is 4-5 times slower than real time' thing. Which means if (for example) Kitty's 1st appearance was in 1979, then the 30 years passed since then are really only 6 or 7 years, making her 20-21 now since she was 13 then. That would be doable but I don't think that one really flies anymore since no Marvel writer would say Kitty is 21 now.

But then the '10 years ago' rule is harder to calculate. If the Marvelverse started 10 years ago, how long ago did Kitty join by that calculation? It started all in the early 60's. So that's 40 years....but the rule makes it 10 which divides it by 4 so....hm that actually adds up to the same thing.

My head hurts now.

[Beast]

That's why it's best to just ignore the timeline for the most part.

That's why comics are fairly vague when they do flashbacks. "Several years ago", etc.

[Omega Alpha]

Relax, it's an alternate reality (except for those of us that would like to consider it the real reality). Seeing as how CC wrote most of the X-Men's history and made them the world's premier super-team, and not Bob Harris, it is very reasonable to consider Grant Morrison, Scott Lobdell, Ed Brubaker, etc. to be an alternate reality. Even IF it was a really good alternate reality (like All-Star Superman, for example).

And Stan & Jack created them, therefore everything after it is alternate reality, isn't it?:rolleyes:

Regardless of what Claremont feels or his fans think, the characters are all Marvel's, so to not call this is just another alternate reality is bull.

Oh, and don't even bother with sliding timescale, guys. It's not worth it.

[rojash]

That's why it's best to just ignore the timeline for the most part.

That's why comics are fairly vague when they do flashbacks. "Several years ago", etc.

The X-Men lead very eventful lives.

[TJKernan]

I can't wait for this.

As someone who USE to love the X-Men (I started reading in the 170's) but thinks, starting with Siege Perlious and continuing with all the mess created with all the Summers kids and the divergent timelines and characters, and through to the mess the X-family is today, I wanna see his vision.

I miss my old X-stories, without all the clutter and garbage that has happened since X-Men #3. I just want a good, fun read without 57 different titles going 57 different directions...

[boodha]

I'm also quite looking forward to this. I started regularly reading the X-Men with X-Men Vol.2 #1 (before I just read some single issues - Warpath taking over NORAD and Magneto being captured by Freedom Force), so I came somewhat late to the party and became a 90's fanboy up to AoA.

I liked CC's Xtreme X-Men (excluding Storm: The Arena) very much, but the other post 2000 CC X-men left me cold, with New Exiles being the absolute let-down (half-atlantean Gambit? WTF? ). But I still think this could be a great comic. The possibilities are endless, and there is a chance for real character development and even Wolvie and Gambit can become interesting and 'cool' again. I just wish, Marvel had decided to give him a somewhat better artist. What is Roger Cruz doing these days?

Another point of concern for me is that CC stated several times that he would use absolutely new and original plots and villains. While that sounds okay, it implies - at least to me - that he won't use the classic and established x - villains, which I would think to be a great pity.

[Joe Franklin]

I just wish, Marvel had decided to give him a somewhat better artist. What is Roger Cruz doing these days?


I'm a Cruz fan, but he's hardly a step up from Grummett.

[Nachturne]

Another point of concern for me is that CC stated several times that he would use absolutely new and original plots and villains. While that sounds okay, it implies - at least to me - that he won't use the classic and established x - villains, which I would think to be a great pity.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/256209-71163-rouge-mort_large.jpg

[Leogam]

i want him to usesome of his old plots, involving wolverine being manipulated by the hand & him fighting the x-men & colossus having ripped out his claws from his forearms, and also his originall plan for Psylocke during her transfermation to an asian & then his eventual transforming her back to caucasian

[boodha]

I'm a Cruz fan, but he's hardly a step up from Grummett.

Yeah? I don't think Cruz is a top artist or something, but I think he channeled the 90's Jim Lee style rather well and I personally prefer his style of drawing over Grummett's. But I guess that is a question of personal taste.

@Nachturne: Sorry, but I don't get what you're trying to point at with that picture...:confused:

@Leogam: Don't know, Betsy is one of my favorite characters, she was my first and only comic crush (when I was a little boy; and I always despised Scott for not getting at it with her when he got the chance) and that is mainly because she is a hot Asian babe (now).

[Nachturne]

@Nachturne: Sorry, but I don't get what you're trying to point at with that picture...:confused:

That's one of Claremont's new villians.

[Omega Alpha]

i want him to usesome of his old plots, involving wolverine being manipulated by the hand & him fighting the x-men & colossus having ripped out his claws from his forearms,

Already done: his adamantium was already ripped by Mags, and he was already manipulated by the hand into fight the X-men in Enemy of the State (which unlike Claremont's planned story, didn't lasted 3 or 4 years, nor ended with Wolverine and Jean Grey together, automatically making Millar's much cooler).

[four_pi]

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/256209-71163-rouge-mort_large.jpg

This picture brings me to a dark place. A very, very dark place.

That's one of Claremont's new villians.

I get what boodha is saying, though--he's a fan of the old villians, not the new ones, so it's a moot point to bring up that picture. Geez, sometimes I think Claremont is better off recycling the old villians anyhow (as long as it's far away from regular X-Continuity) if that's what he comes up with when he steps out of his box. Yikes...

[Petes Pants]

Some of us have been waiting with bated breath for the return of Rouge-Mort.

Don't assume.

[boodha]

Hmm, I'm terribly sorry, that picture seems awful familiar, but I can't remember from which CC written project it comes (I blame the mother-flippin' Mary Jane), so I don't have positive or negative associations with it and still don't get what you're trying to say, Nachturne :redface: ...

@four-pi: Hey, same registration date, almost same count of posts, brothers in spirit, I say :biggrin: !

Nah, man, I'm a big fan of the classic villains gallery, but I have nothing against some new additions to it. I just would think it would be quite sad to not throw some classic foes into the mix and to build up on past continuity.

[psycwave]

Some of us have been waiting with bated breath for the return of Rouge-Mort.

Don't assume.

This is truth. When she returns with her obligatory Claremont speak it will be glorious!

[four_pi]

Hmm, I'm terribly sorry, that picture seems awful familiar, but I can't remember from which CC written project it comes...

Keep it that way. Trust me. You'll be the better off for it.

@four-pi: Hey, same registration date, almost same count of posts, brothers in spirit, I say :biggrin: !.

I'm a chick. :cool:

Nah, man, I'm a big fan of the classic villains gallery, but I have nothing against some new additions to it. I just would think it would be quite sad to not throw some classic foes into the mix and to build up on past continuity.

...
.....

Well, in that case:



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/256209-71163-rouge-mort.jpg

[boodha]

Keep it that way. Trust me. You'll be the better off for it.



I'm a chick. :cool:



...
.....

Well, in that case:



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/256209-71163-rouge-mort.jpg

:redface: Okay, I think I finally get the point - you're trying to scare me off with that pic . Mind telling me where this 'formidable' new foe appeared on, so that I can witness the horror myself?

And you're a lady :eek: ? Damn, I wish I knew some comic reading girls in my country... My girlfriend always mocks me for reading comics...

[chastmastr]

She's in X-Men: Die by the Sword.

[boodha]

Ahh, yes, I vaguely remember now... Guess my brain was just trying to protect me from possible mental damage...

Well, when I talked about throwing in some new villains, I meant more something in the lines of Elias Bogan and not something like this little dungeon mistress.

[psycwave]

Vargas, Rouge Mort, and Elias Bogan will be the quessential evil triage one day. Wait and see.

[MartinRedmond]

You left out bondage Professor X, the reason I quit buying New Excaliburrr.

[Blade X]

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/256209-71163-rouge-mort_large.jpg

What did you think about Vargas,Bogan,and KHAAAAAAANNN (sorry, I couldn't help it:smile: )?

[four_pi]

Ahh, yes, I vaguely remember now... Guess my brain was just trying to protect me from possible mental damage....

Well, yeah, there is that risk--but on thinking about it, there's also the comedy GOLD that this character is indeed. You should read DBTS--it's a real howler.

(As by virtue of its inane plot and ridiculous villians...)

What country are you from, boodha? There are indeed a lot of chicks in the US that have an interest in comics, and that number (whatever it is) is growing year by year...

[chastmastr]

You left out bondage Professor X, the reason I quit buying New Excaliburrr.

Not that Charles is quite the type I like (maybe if he grew a beard?), but now you have me intrigued. :tongue: LOL!

David

[Novaya Havoc]

I adore Rouge Mort. She is an angel sent from Heaven.

[The M.E.]

I adore Rouge Mort. She is an angel sent from Heaven.

Ugh, if Rouge Mort is an angel from heaven, I'll gladly take my seat next to Chris Brown in hell.

[Novaya Havoc]

Ugh, if Rouge Mort is an angel from heaven, I'll gladly take my seat next to Chris Brown in hell.

LOLOLOL!

Touche.

[Blade X]

Ugh, if Rouge Mort is an angel from heaven, I'll gladly take my seat next to Chris Brown in hell.

LOL

Funny you should mention Chris Brown in this thread, since he has a song called "Forever".

[david r]

So we've learned a familiar X-character is going to die early on, in X-Men Forever. Chris Claremont has a history of killing off a character early in his series. The pattern is remarkably consistent:

Thunderbird in 1975, only 3 issues into the "new X-Men" run.
Karma died early in New Mutants. Or so it was believed.
Wolverine was planned to die in 1991's X-Men series, issue #3, with superstar Jim Lee drawing the death scene!
Psylocke died in #2 or 3 of X-Treme X-Men.
Dazzler more or less, died early in New Excalibur.
Who will it be this time??

[Joe Franklin]

Wolverine was planned to die in 1991's X-Men series, issue #3, with superstar Jim Lee drawing the death scene!


Where did you hear this?:confused:

Did you just make this up? I call bullcrap.

[david r]

Where did you hear this?:confused:

Did you just make this up? I call bullcrap.

It is widely known. And has been for years. Claremont was planning to kill Wolverine in X-Men #3. To be drawn by Jim Lee. Lady Deathstrike would have ripped out his heart, in a fierce battle. Claremont has stated it several times in interviews and you can find it in the Claremont's Abandoned Plot thread.

This was the start of the Dark Wolverine story. Wolverine would have stayed dead for a year. Claremont wanted to show Logan really WAS almost unkillable. His healing factor would have brought him back. A lot more would have followed.

[Kage Kisaragi]

oh god more retard Storm stories. *cringes*
Ack! I almost forgot its going to be a outlet for him to cater to fans hooplas.

[Blade X]

It is widely known. And has been for years. Claremont was planning to kill Wolverine in X-Men #3. To be drawn by Jim Lee. Lady Deathstrike would have ripped out his heart, in a fierce battle. Claremont has stated it several times in interviews and you can find it in the Claremont's Abandoned Plot thread.

This was the start of the Dark Wolverine story. Wolverine would have stayed dead for a year. Claremont wanted to show Logan really WAS almost unkillable. His healing factor would have brought him back. A lot more would have followed.

I thought it was a combination of his healing factor and the magic of the Hand that was going to bring him back, not his healing factor alone.

[SynthesisNY]

I hope the main editor he is working with is as knowledgeable about x-history prior to x-men 3 as most of us are. It would piss me off too see errors, such as: Mr. Marvel personality still in Rogue's mind; Psylocke with telekinesis for no explained reason; Sabretooth "not" the killer he has been in Mutant Massacre and the Wolverine book.

I still cannot see how Sabretooth, killer of possibly hundreds (?), would be allowed on the team. The difference btw Wolverine and Sabretooth, back in the day, is Wolverine had a conscience and morals, Sabretooth didn't. Sabretooth 616 is not like Exiles Sabretooth.

I know the CC's X-Men have a history an excepting the unexpected in their line-up: Rogue a former villain, Magneto their greatest villain, etc... but Sabretooth? I can only think of one scenario that would make sense: All the Sabretooth's we've ever seen are clones (as CC has stated before), and the original is in hibernation in one of Sinister's labs, and this Sabretooth happens to be a nice guy. It was Sinister's manipulation of the minds of the clones that made them psycho killers. Maybe that's why they have no morals, they were engineered to NOT have morals, while the original always did, and perhaps never killed. The original is freed, or escapes, and seeks helps from the X-Men, Logan doesn't trust him and takes off with his asian chicks: Psylocke and Jubilee.

[SynthesisNY]

Good lord, just noticed, I really hope that is not a Phoenix insignia on that Sabretooth's costume. It's hard to tell.

[psycwave]

Like i said before this will be great. If I know my Claremont, this will be the best-selling X-book out for many many months. I hear it now...."My turn", "Give it to momma", "These capers aren't won on grandstandin" o glorianna how wonderful this will be.

[SynthesisNY]

If Storm and Sabretooth aren't the surprise members, who'd you like to see added to the line-up.

So far there's Xavier, Nick Fury, Cyclops, Phoenix, Beast, Nightcrawler, Shadowcat, Rogue, and Gambit.

He's probably got a lot of unused Valeria stories in his mind, wouldn't be surprised if a version of her joined the team.

Tentacle Callisto?
Karima?
Shola?

Maybe Scarlet Witch or Quicksilver are at Magneto's memorial and one of them joins?

Guido? pre-X-Factor, I think I saw him on some of Jim Lee's promotional art as a possible member back in the day.

My ideal new member?
Legion: You'd think Xavier, who views his x-men as his children, would take more responsibility in raising his actual child, now that David's free of the Shadow King and Muir Island blew up. Between Xavier and Phoenix, I'm sure they could suppress the Jack Wayne personality, and have David be the core personality along with Cyndi (pyrokinetic) and the Arab (telepath).

[Sean Whitmore]

It is widely known. And has been for years. Claremont was planning to kill Wolverine in X-Men #3. To be drawn by Jim Lee. Lady Deathstrike would have ripped out his heart, in a fierce battle. Claremont has stated it several times in interviews and you can find it in the Claremont's Abandoned Plot thread.

This was the start of the Dark Wolverine story. Wolverine would have stayed dead for a year. Claremont wanted to show Logan really WAS almost unkillable. His healing factor would have brought him back. A lot more would have followed.

I remember reading about the abandoned plot, but X-Men #3 sounds awfully early for it. Wasn't Wolverine's solo book very popular at the time, with the Silvestri art? Unless there was some plan that could keep it going, it seems weird that anyone would think to kill him off.


SEAN

[boodha]

Well, yeah, there is that risk--but on thinking about it, there's also the comedy GOLD that this character is indeed. You should read DBTS--it's a real howler.

(As by virtue of its inane plot and ridiculous villians...)

What country are you from, boodha? There are indeed a lot of chicks in the US that have an interest in comics, and that number (whatever it is) is growing year by year...

I actually have read it when it came out, it's just that I almost completely forget about it - like I said, probably my self-healing power at work trying to beware me from any long-lasting mental damage... Maybe I'll get me some booze and give it a re-read.

And I'm originally from Germany, where I guess might live some comic reading girls, although I never met one, but I'm now living in China since 3 years and it is hard enough to find anybody who is reading comics here.

@Sean Whitmore: Who was writing Wolverine back then (Hama?)? CC really seems to be someone who didn't care too much about marketing. Wolverine was maybe since the 80's the most famous of the X-Men and killing him off and not having him appear in the books for one year has to be the nightmare of every X-Editor.

[Omega Alpha]

I remember reading about the abandoned plot, but X-Men #3 sounds awfully early for it. Wasn't Wolverine's solo book very popular at the time, with the Silvestri art? Unless there was some plan that could keep it going, it seems weird that anyone would think to kill him off.


SEAN

Harras, like any editor would have done, blocked the idea early on, Wolverine was (and is) too popular to be killed and left out of the books.

[rojash]

Harras, like any editor would have done, blocked the idea early on, Wolverine was (and is) too popular to be killed and left out of the books.

Doesn't stop me from dreaming about it, though.

I think Wolverine would gain a lot more of his relevance back and be impactful again if he was removed/put on hiatus for a while, to rest and recover.

[david r]

I thought it was a combination of his healing factor and the magic of the Hand that was going to bring him back, not his healing factor alone.

I think the magic of the Hand is what turns Logan into their slave. But Claremont was pretty clear once it was mostly Logan's healing factor which kept him alive, after Deathstrike rips out his heart. It would shut down the rest of his body (giving his body the appearance of death) and the healing factor would focus primarily on repairing his damaged heart.

All the Sabretooth's we've ever seen are clones (as CC has stated before), and the original is in hibernation in one of Sinister's labs, and this Sabretooth happens to be a nice guy. It was Sinister's manipulation of the minds of the clones that made them psycho killers. Maybe that's why they have no morals, they were engineered to NOT have morals, while the original always did, and perhaps never killed. The original is freed, or escapes, and seeks helps from the X-Men,

You are partly right. Claremont said in the 1990s, he would have revealed the Sabretooth who joined the Marauders was a clone. The *real* Sabretooth was trapped by Mr. Sinister. Once he escaped, he would NOT be a good guy though. Claremont said the real Sabretooth would have made the clone look like a pussycat. Sabretooth would have ripped bloodshed throughout the title in the 90s, and Marvel would needed to slap an R-rating on the book.

[rwsmith]

The one really good thing I can see coming out of this series (at least as far as I'm concerned) is that Claremont left the books before it was confirmed that Cable was Nathan Summers. So, if he wanted to use Cable, he could turn him back into just a badass cyborg again (perhaps with some light TP/TK, but I can't remember if they'd even shown his powers yet at the time CC left the X-men).

If that happens, I may just buy this. :biggrin:

[MartinRedmond]

Harras, like any editor would have done, blocked the idea early on, Wolverine was (and is) too popular to be killed and left out of the books.

And then, one year later, DC killed Superman, and then Batman, and then your darling little Brubaker killed off Captain America.

The one really good thing I can see coming out of this series (at least as far as I'm concerned) is that Claremont left the books before it was confirmed that Cable was Nathan Summers.

Yes, Cable hadn't been ruined yet.

[Flâneur]

The one really good thing I can see coming out of this series (at least as far as I'm concerned) is that Claremont left the books before it was confirmed that Cable was Nathan Summers. So, if he wanted to use Cable, he could turn him back into just a badass cyborg again (perhaps with some light TP/TK, but I can't remember if they'd even shown his powers yet at the time CC left the X-men).

If that happens, I may just buy this. :biggrin:

You realise that, at that stage, Cable was Cannonball, right? And that CC didn't want the baby done away with by tossing him into the future anyway? You'd be getting a future Sam Guthrie with a metal arm, it was mostly the X-Forcey stuff that was behind the heaps of muscle, hair and metal and even later on the TK/TP. The reversion isn't going to be what gets you your Cable back, going by the older plots, he's even further away from that.

[The M.E.]

Here's the big puddle of pee in what i thought would be a big bowl of cheerios for me....

My big complaint is that all the costumes and lineups had JUST changed in X-Men 1, so for everything to change again so dramatically in what in essence will be X-men 4 feels very forced and unnatural. I think i'd be jazzed if we picked up right after X-men 3, and saw slow and subtle plot changes from there (what claremont used to be really good at).

But looking at the new team and outfits, i realized it'll probably just feel like another alternate reality.I honestly loved the books under Claremont's first reign, and have always been really excited about his forgotten plans (dark wolverine, etc.) . However, I have abhorred everything he's touched since then (everything, mind you). I'll probably pick it up to give it a shot, but my expectations are hella low.

[rojash]

My big complaint is that all the costumes and lineups had JUST changed in X-Men 1, so for everything to change again so dramatically in what in essence will be X-men 4 feels very forced and unnatural.

Again, it hasn't been confirmed that the uniforms will be changing in the first issue. It might be a few down the line yet.

Then again, X-Men: Forever Alpha might contain all of those changes before the first issue.

[Wind Rider]

What the.... ??

I didn't read Storm in this lineup! I'm going to chalk that up to CC still trying to be coy and evasive..... yeah, that's what it better be... and he's putting Storm in this book.

I need Prodigy to come in here with a "Chris Claremont, get with it girl!"

As the days get closer, my concern grows more and more..... :frown:

[The M.E.]

Again, it hasn't been confirmed that the uniforms will be changing in the first issue. It might be a few down the line yet.

Then again, X-Men: Forever Alpha might contain all of those changes before the first issue.

Yeah, you're right, but I do think Alpha's purpose will be to take us from X-men 3 to the new status quo of that cover, which has me worried. But it's all just my terror-filled speculation for now :smile:

[rwsmith]

You realise that, at that stage, Cable was Cannonball, right? And that CC didn't want the baby done away with by tossing him into the future anyway? You'd be getting a future Sam Guthrie with a metal arm, it was mostly the X-Forcey stuff that was behind the heaps of muscle, hair and metal and even later on the TK/TP. The reversion isn't going to be what gets you your Cable back, going by the older plots, he's even further away from that.

The intention was for Cable to be Sam Guthrie from the future, but it was never established, so he's still a blank slate at this point in time and CC can do whatever he wants with him.

Having said that, he probably won't even use him. No big deal. I wasn't planning on buying it anyway. But if he does use him and returns him to when he was actually a cool character with some mystery surrounding him, then I'm there!

[Flâneur]

The intention was for Cable to be Sam Guthrie from the future, but it was never established, so he's still a blank slate at this point in time and CC can do whatever he wants with him.

Having said that, he probably won't even use him. No big deal. I wasn't planning on buying it anyway. But if he does use him and returns him to when he was actually a cool character with some mystery surrounding him, then I'm there!

Oh, I know. I'm just pointing out that the reversion isn't really good for undoing any wrongdoing for Cable, let alone any character since CC could do anything he wants with him but considering how he hangs onto his old plots, especially given the nature of this project, we're not going to be seeing new potential rather we're probably seeing the abandoned plot lines of 18 years ago. That's what you're buying into, CC's vision of what the X-men should've been.

[rojash]

That's what you're buying into, CC's vision of what the X-men should've been.

A lot of people don't have a problem with that, since we kind of like what he was doing with the books eighteen years ago.

[Flâneur]

A lot of people don't have a problem with that, since we kind of like what he was doing with the books eighteen years ago.
While I find that an odd thing to like, that's up to you. The fact remains though, that the book isn't being sold as, written for or marketed as a new book but one about the past and things being done that weren't. It's not the book for -all- of us to have the worst terrors undone to our favourites and for them to progress in the ways we might hope. It's the book for Claremont's vision of what they should've been and unless you're a fan of that vision then the notion of reversion isn't a hope to cling to.

[Omega Alpha]

And then, one year later, DC killed Superman, and then Batman, and then your darling little Brubaker killed off Captain America.


Superman dying was a marketing ploy, nothing more. There was always a Batman around, even if not Bruce Wayne. FC has shown in the end he's alive, everyone knows he'll be back, etc. Claremont's plan not only involved Logan dead for a year, but later running around as a villain mind controlled by the Hand for other 3. Plus, that was on the period in which the X-men were becoming more popular than ever and a cartoon was just about to be released, giving them their first exposure outside the medium.

And Captain America is not in the same level of popularity as the other 3. And he's a character that can be more easily replaced than the others, and he was.

[MartinRedmond]

Wolverine didn't show up in X-Men for nearly a whole year already. Everything still went well. And this was back when Marvel was ran by money hungry sell outs, not very serious innovative artists with integritylike we have now , so Wolverine only had 1 book per month instead of 12.

You're grasping at straws to complain about CC!

[Disco Jess Minge]

Wolverine still had his own title at the time when he left the X-Men for a year and still had continued exposure in the cartoon.

Who at Marvel has integrity? Certainly not Claremont, that's for sure. He could have kept playing the game when he was doing Uncanny or X-Treme, but didn't do it. He wanted to write fan fiction about Psylocke and Dino-Jailbait Summers. The thing that he seems to keep forgetting is that he's working for a corporation, on a work-for-hire property. I thought this was a business to make money.

The fact that he's only still getting work is because he stayed on a title for 17 years while not really finishing anything. In fact, this new series that he's doing looks like his last chance. The premise is so secular and not all that accessible to casual readers. Why would Marvel publish this? It's mind-boggling. I hope it does well, because if it fails, it's the death knell for his career.

[Omega Alpha]

Wolverine didn't show up in X-Men for nearly a whole year already. Everything still went well.

Big difference between not show up for a year in one book and appear in ZERO books for one year, and then as a mind controlled villain for 2 or 3.


You're grasping at straws to complain about CC!

You are the one making excuses for something that is simply a matter of common sense. Simply put yourself as editor of the X-books, presenting this idea to your bosses: "Hey, how about we kill Wolverine, have him not appear anywhere for a year, then in the next ones we have him run around as a villain mind-controlled by The Hand, around the same time the X-men finally get a cartoon?". Harras was a terrible editor, that's for sure, possibly the worst EIC Marvel had, but he wasn't wrong in that one.


The thing that he seems to keep forgetting is that he's working for a corporation, on a work-for-hire property. I thought this was a business to make money.


Exactly. His fans, and sometimes Claremont himself, seem to think the X-men are creator owned stuff, and not an important part of a business that involves millions of dollars (heck, billions, counting the movies and cartoons).

[Blade X]

I think the magic of the Hand is what turns Logan into their slave. But Claremont was pretty clear once it was mostly Logan's healing factor which kept him alive, after Deathstrike rips out his heart. It would shut down the rest of his body (giving his body the appearance of death) and the healing factor would focus primarily on repairing his damaged heart.

yeah, I think you're right now that I have thought about it. I also believe CC said that after his healing factor grows his heart back expels all of the adamantium from his body, his healing factor would be pretty much shot and will no longer be as powerful as it used to be.

Since you have a much greater knowledge about CC's abandon plots then I do, I have a couple of questions for you.

1. When Wolverine is fully "reborn" from his "death" and adamantium purge, is it true that his new skeleton and bone claws were going to be a lot stronger then normal bones, but still be able to be broken?

2. What were CC's original plans for baby Nathan?

[Come To Deathstrike]

Wolverine didn't show up in X-Men for nearly a whole year already. Everything still went well. And this was back when Marvel was ran by money hungry sell outs, not very serious innovative artists with integrity like we have now, so Wolverine only had 1 book per month instead of 12.

You're grasping at straws to complain about CC!

Lol @ the idea that someone has to grasp at straws to complain about CC.

[Blade X]

Big difference between not show up for a year in one book and appear in ZERO books for one year, and then as a mind controlled villain for 2 or 3.

You are the one making excuses for something that is simply a matter of common sense. Simply put yourself as editor of the X-books, presenting this idea to your bosses: "Hey, how about we kill Wolverine, have him not appear anywhere for a year, then in the next ones we have him run around as a villain mind-controlled by The Hand, around the same time the X-men finally get a cartoon?". Harras was a terrible editor, that's for sure, possibly the worst EIC Marvel had, but he wasn't wrong in that one.

Exactly. His fans, and sometimes Claremont himself, seem to think the X-men are creator owned stuff, and not an important part of a business that involves millions of dollars (heck, billions, counting the movies and cartoons).

I agree with everything you said. Like I said in an earlier post on this thread, CC needs to put the X-Men franchise first and his creative vision second. He is a caretaker of these characters and he shouldn't let his creative vision of the characters (no matter how cool or good he thinks his ideas might be) over rule the business aspects of these characters. And this just doesn't go for CC, but goes for ALL writers. Hell, DEADLY GENESIS is a perfect example of a writers creative vision ruining ruining characters.

That being said, CC's "death of Wolverine" and Dark Wolverine" stories would have been more "marketing friendly" if (a) the stories were shorter (between 12 to 18 months long) and (b) did not involve Wolverine loosing all of his adamantium and having his claws being replace by natural bone claws (he should keep the adamantim in his forearms and retain the adamantium claws).

I should also point out that CC does have SOME good marketing ideas when it comes to the characters. For example, he has always been opposed to Wolverine getting his own ongoing series since it will over expose the character. He has suggested that Wolverine should be given one 4 to 6 issue mini series each year instead of a regular ongoing series. He believes that you should only give the readers enough to wet their appetites so that they will always want more. Which is something I fully agree with.

[Sean Whitmore]

I should also point out that CC does have SOME good marketing ideas when it comes to the characters. For example, he has always been opposed to Wolverine getting his own ongoing series since it will over expose the character. He has suggested that Wolverine should be given one 4 to 6 issue mini series each year instead of a regular ongoing series. He believes that you should only give the readers enough to wet their appetites so that they will always want more. Which is something I fully agree with.

You kinda contradict yourself at the end here. Like you said, the business aspect has to be kept in mind. And while Wolverine may be overexposed from a creative standpoint, his series has always had healthy sales. Even those godawful one shots and mini series that they keep spewing out all manage to sell at least well enough to justify their existence. And Wolverine's addition to the Avengers is often cited as a big reason that book started selling so well. Business wise, he's still incredibly viable.


SEAN

[Stephen Moreno]

You kinda contradict yourself at the end here. Like you said, the business aspect has to be kept in mind. And while Wolverine may be overexposed from a creative standpoint, his series has always had healthy sales. Even those godawful one shots and mini series that they keep spewing out all manage to sell at least well enough to justify their existence. And Wolverine's addition to the Avengers is often cited as a big reason that book started selling so well. Business wise, he's still incredibly viable.


SEAN

Exactly, Claremont's idea of holding Wolverine back might be good for a story stand point, but as a business idea, it's idiotic. You do not hold back your cash crop.

Blade X I am constantly in awe of the things you describe as a good business decisions.

[Jake V]

I should also point out that CC does have SOME good marketing ideas when it comes to the characters. For example, he has always been opposed to Wolverine getting his own ongoing series since it will over expose the character. He has suggested that Wolverine should be given one 4 to 6 issue mini series each year instead of a regular ongoing series. He believes that you should only give the readers enough to wet their appetites so that they will always want more. Which is something I fully agree with.

That's kind of... the opposite of marketing.

[Blade X]

You kinda contradict yourself at the end here. Like you said, the business aspect has to be kept in mind. And while Wolverine may be overexposed from a creative standpoint, his series has always had healthy sales. Even those godawful one shots and mini series that they keep spewing out all manage to sell at least well enough to justify their existence. And Wolverine's addition to the Avengers is often cited as a big reason that book started selling so well. Business wise, he's still incredibly viable.


SEAN

I don't contradict myself at all.

What I (and CC) was saying is that over exposing Wolverine will in the long term (NOT short term) hurt the selling power of the character. it is PARTIALLY because of over exposure why Superman,Batman,and Spider-Man comics (outside of sales gimmicks or certain creative teams being on those books) are no longer top 10 sellers on a regular bases. Hell, even Wolverine (outside of the current "Old Man Logan" storyline) is no longer a constant top 10 seller like the book used to be 10+ years ago.

Speaking ONLY for the comic shop I work at, I can tell you that all of those Wolverine mini series and one shots do not sell well at all, except to the die hard completest.

And the AVENGERS started selling real well when the whole DISSASSEMBLED storyline started.

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't contradict myself at all.

What I (and CC) was saying is that over exposing Wolverine will in the long term (NOT short term) hurt the selling power of the character.

I gotta ask, what do you consider long term? Wolverine has held in quite well for over 30 years. In a very short while, it'll be 40. If CC thought he could do even better than that with a little more restraint, like he was gonna be the next Batman or something, I think he might've been overestimating the character's appeal.


Speaking ONLY for the comic shop I work at, I can tell you that all of those Wolverine mini series and one shots do not sell well at all, except to the die hard completest.

No, I get that. I'm just saying, those completists shouldn't be discounted. It's rare that a week goes by without some pointless, merely adequate X-mini, one shot, or satellite series aimed squarely at the completists. There are enough of them to be considered a serious fraction of the X-Men's (and through them, Wolverine's) target audience.


SEAN

[Omega Alpha]

I agree with everything you said. Like I said in an earlier post on this thread, CC needs to put the X-Men franchise first and his creative vision second. He is a caretaker of these characters and he shouldn't let his creative vision of the characters (no matter how cool or good he thinks his ideas might be) over rule the business aspects of these characters.

I understand your point, but that wasn't exactly what I meant.

A writer is not an editor or a businessman (usually), his job is simply to create good and entertaining stories. But if you're working in a title which is not owned by you (and your artist) and in a shared universe, then you should know that your view will often have to take a backseat to the company's ideas and needs.

Of course that quite often the company will make bad decisions or play too safe, but it's not hard to see why an idea like DWS would be something they would strongly oppose, and they were certainly not being unreasonable.

[Blade X]

Exactly, Claremont's idea of holding Wolverine back might be good for a story stand point, but as a business idea, it's idiotic. You do not hold back your cash crop.

Blade X I am constantly in awe of the things you describe as a good business decisions.

Marvel didn't "hold back" their other two ultra popular cash crop characters in the 90's, Ghost Rider and Punisher, and look how their books sell now.

DC didn't "hold back" the mega popular Lobo back in the 90's, and look how his book is selling now. Oh wait, he doesn't currently have a book right now and he barely appears (as far as I know) in any book these days.

[TJKernan]

Lobo didn't die from over-exposure. He died from inconsistent writing.
(also, they used the multiple mini-series idea on him...look how that worked out...)

Ghost Rider also suffered from inconsistent writing, and the fact it was a supernatural series, and few writers can write consistently good (and long) supernatural series.

Punisher did suffer from over-exposure. He is a one-trick pony, and didn't need to be in multiple series every month.

[Blade X]

I gotta ask, what do you consider long term? Wolverine has held in quite well for over 30 years. In a very short while, it'll be 40. If CC thought he could do even better than that with a little more restraint, like he was gonna be the next Batman or something, I think he might've been overestimating the character's appeal.




No, I get that. I'm just saying, those completists shouldn't be discounted. It's rare that a week goes by without some pointless, merely adequate X-mini, one shot, or satellite series aimed squarely at the completists. There are enough of them to be considered a serious fraction of the X-Men's (and through them, Wolverine's) target audience.


SEAN

20 years ago, Wolverine guest starring in any book was enough to boost sales on that book. Today, a Wolverine appearance is met with "Oh, him again". Like the old saying goes "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" or "Less is more". And when I say "long term", I'm talking about the character still being in demand for many years or as long as possible.

As for the completest, even many of them are not picking up those pointless Wolverine mini series and one shots.

[david r]

1. When Wolverine is fully "reborn" from his "death" and adamantium purge, is it true that his new skeleton and bone claws were going to be a lot stronger then normal bones, but still be able to be broken?

Yes, one outcome of "Dark Wolverine" was Logan would lose all his adamantium. Chris Claremont wanted to make him a more "natural character". (I have my suspicions what would have happened to all the lost adamantium!) But Wolverine's bones would have remained nearly unbreakable, plus bone claws. Another interesting idea borrowed by later writers.

2. What were CC's original plans for baby Nathan?

Do you mean Scott and Madelyne's child? The only thing I've ever heard is baby Nathan would live happily with his parents in Alaska. So I've wondered about baby Nathan and if more was indeed planned for him. His birth coinciding with Charles Xavier's "death" in Uncanny X-Men #200.

[Blade X]

I understand your point, but that wasn't exactly what I meant.

A writer is not an editor or a businessman (usually), his job is simply to create good and entertaining stories. But if you're working in a title which is not owned by you (and your artist) and in a shared universe, then you should know that your view will often have to take a backseat to the company's ideas and needs.

Of course that quite often the company will make bad decisions or play too safe, but it's not hard to see why an idea like DWS would be something they would strongly oppose, and they were certainly not being unreasonable.

Which is pretty much what I said.:smile:

[Prodigy55]

I don't know about you guys, but I kinda like Gambit's costume in the promo art.

[david r]

I'm fascinated by this talk that killing Wolverine, then bringing him back as a villain was going to harm Marvel Comics in some way. DC Comics killed Superman in 1992 and kept him dead for awhile. It was a huge financial success for DC and brought droves of customers into stores. Wolverine's death likely would not have made news headlines, but I guarantee you it would have been a financial success. No doubt in my mind. The issue he was killed (X-Men #3) would have sold out! In fact, Marvel would have beaten DC to the punch by a year.

[Sean Whitmore]

And when I say "long term", I'm talking about the character still being in demand for many years or as long as possible.

What I'm saying is, I think we're seeing that now.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

DC Comics killed Superman in 1992 and kept him dead for awhile. It was a huge financial success for DC and brought droves of customers into stores.

If there was a plan that allowed Wolverine to keep coming out each month, you might be right. As it was, I don't think he had a large enough supporting cast central to his solo book to examine for the first few months (some might argue that, but I think it's true), and we were unlikely to see four new Wolverines pop up and keep the story going for the next six months either.


SEAN

[Blade X]

Lobo didn't die from over-exposure. He died from inconsistent writing.
(also, they used the multiple mini-series idea on him...look how that worked out...)

Ghost Rider also usffered from inconsistent writing, and the fact it was asupernatural series, and few writers can consistently good (and long) supernatural series.

At the height of his popularity, Lobo was simultaneously appearing regularly in L.E.G.I.O.N.,guest starring in every other DCU superhero title,had a string of mini series (one after the other, IIRC),and (IIRC) was eventually given his own ongoing series. He was definitely over exposed. Which is not to say that was the sole reason why the characters popularity quickly fizzled (him being too powerful and invincible helped kill the character's popularity). Inconsistent writing had nothing to do with it.

As for Ghost Rider, there were 3 ongoing series,numerous one shots,and numerous guest appearances during the 90's. Again, inconsistent writing had nothing to do with the characters sudden loss of popularity.

[Sean Whitmore]

As for Ghost Rider, there were 3 ongoing series,numerous one shots,and numerous guest appearances during the 90's. Again, inconsistent writing had nothing to do with the characters sudden loss of popularity.

I'd agree with that, but only in the sense that he was never written particularly well to begin with. Ghost Rider was style over substance, and as time goes on, style fades.

Maybe CC also thought Wolverine was style over substance, and that's why he was afraid of overexposure. That's certainly possible.


SEAN

[Blade X]

What I'm saying is, I think we're seeing that now.


SEAN

No we're not. We are seeing Marvel flooding the market with useless Wolverine books that no one is asking for in the misguided belief that people who watch the Wolverine movie will suddenly head to their local comic book shops looking for any comics with Wolverine in it.

[Blade X]

If there was a plan that allowed Wolverine to keep coming out each month, you might be right. As it was, I don't think he had a large enough supporting cast central to his solo book to examine for the first few months (some might argue that, but I think it's true), and we were unlikely to see four new Wolverines pop up and keep the story going for the next six months either.


SEAN

Well they could have easily turned his ongoing series into a book that told untold adventures with Wolverine and his Weapon X buddy's, Wraith and Maverick.

[Sean Whitmore]

Well they could have easily turned his ongoing series into a book that told untold adventures with Wolverine and his Weapon X buddy's, Wraith and Maverick.

Well, Wraith, anyway. Maverick wouldn't have been around.

But yeah, that might've worked. Might not've, but might've.


SEAN

[Blade X]

I'd agree with that, but only in the sense that he was never written particularly well to begin with. Ghost Rider was style over substance, and as time goes on, style fades.

Maybe CC also thought Wolverine was style over substance, and that's why he was afraid of overexposure. That's certainly possible.


SEAN

I actually thought the GR series was very well written. I also liked the BLAZE series written by Larry Hama.

[Blade X]

Well, Wraith, anyway. Maverick wouldn't have been around.

But yeah, that might've worked. Might not've, but might've.


SEAN

D'OH, you're right, Maverick was not around back then.

BTW, did you that Larry Hama had planned to turn the WOLVERINE ongoing series into an unofficial buddy book with Wolverine and Wraith going on adventures together shortly after he had his adamantium ripped out of his body, but Marvel apparently nixed that whole idea.

[Sean Whitmore]

D'OH, you're right, Maverick was not around back then.

BTW, did you that Larry Hama had planned to turn the WOLVERINE ongoing series into an unofficial buddy book with Wolverine and Wraith going on adventures together shortly after he had his adamantium ripped out of his body, but Marvel apparently nixed that whole idea.

I hadn't heard that. What's funny is it sort of did become a buddy book for a little while, only with Zoe Culloden instead of Wraith.


SEAN

[Blade X]

Yes, one outcome of "Dark Wolverine" was Logan would lose all his adamantium. Chris Claremont wanted to make him a more "natural character". (I have my suspicions what would have happened to all the lost adamantium!) But Wolverine's bones would have remained nearly unbreakable, plus bone claws. Another interesting idea borrowed by later writers.



Do you mean Scott and Madelyne's child? The only thing I've ever heard is baby Nathan would live happily with his parents in Alaska. So I've wondered about baby Nathan and if more was indeed planned for him. His birth coinciding with Charles Xavier's "death" in Uncanny X-Men #200.

Yep, I'm talking about Scott and Maddie's baby boy.

Thanks for answering my questions.

[Joe Franklin]

I remember reading about the abandoned plot, but X-Men #3 sounds awfully early for it. Wasn't Wolverine's solo book very popular at the time, with the Silvestri art? Unless there was some plan that could keep it going, it seems weird that anyone would think to kill him off.


SEAN

Yep.

With Wolverine's successful ongoing series by Silvestri and Hama, Wolverine was not getting killed off in X-Men #3.

Again, it's an internet lie, it's bullcrap.

[Stephen Moreno]

Marvel didn't "hold back" their other two ultra popular cash crop characters in the 90's, Ghost Rider and Punisher, and look how their books sell now.

DC didn't "hold back" the mega popular Lobo back in the 90's, and look how his book is selling now. Oh wait, he doesn't currently have a book right now and he barely appears (as far as I know) in any book these days.

Using the 90's as the standard bearer is a mistake, everything then was selling like hot cakes, Wolverine has been one of the few that has withstood any cooling. Chris Claremont's idea's are based on one notion, that a comapny shouldn't earn as much money today as they possibly can.

No we're not. We are seeing Marvel flooding the market with useless Wolverine books that no one is asking for in the misguided belief that people who watch the Wolverine movie will suddenly head to their local comic book shops looking for any comics with Wolverine in it.

Which sell more then Claremont books, yea they aren't top 10-20 sellers but they always manage to find themselves in the top 100.

[rwsmith]

At the height of his popularity, Lobo was simultaneously appearing regularly in L.E.G.I.O.N.,guest starring in every other DCU superhero title,had a string of mini series (one after the other, IIRC),and (IIRC) was eventually given his own ongoing series. He was definitely over exposed. Which is not to say that was the sole reason why the characters popularity quickly fizzled (him being too powerful and invincible helped kill the character's popularity). Inconsistent writing had nothing to do with it.

As for Ghost Rider, there were 3 ongoing series,numerous one shots,and numerous guest appearances during the 90's. Again, inconsistent writing had nothing to do with the characters sudden loss of popularity.

Wolverine's held onto his popularity since the 80's. Yes, guys like the Punisher, Ghost Rider and Lobo peaked in the 90's and then kind of fizzled out, but Wolverine didn't and he's not going to anytime soon. It's just fact. You need to learn to accept it. He's a more versatile character than those three examples you keep throwing out, and works in a much larger variety of settings.

Right now, in addition to all of the comic books he's appearing in, he's got his own movie coming out as well as a popular cartoon that he headlines. One could really argue that the character is just now peaking in terms of his potential mainstream appeal. So, even if what you say is true (and it's not), he's had a pretty great 30+ year run! :wink:

[Blade X]

Using the 90's as the standard bearer is a mistake, everything then was selling like hot cakes, Wolverine has been one of the few that has withstood any cooling. Chris Claremont's idea's are based on one notion, that a comapny shouldn't earn as much money today as they possibly can.



Which sell more then Claremont books, yea they aren't top 10-20 sellers but they always manage to find themselves in the top 100.

Not everything in the 90's was selling like hot cakes. And how am I using the 90's as a "standard bearer"? If you take a look at the sales charts over the lastfew years, you would definitely see that Wolverine's popularity has definitely wanned over the last 10+ years. And CC's ideas are based on the notion that a company should make decisions that will keep the company earning as much money as possible in the LONG TERM and not a lump sum of money in the short term. Many company's have went out of business because of short term thinking and profits.

And those pointless Wolverine books sell more then books written by SOME other writers who's names I will not mention. So what's your point?

[Stephen Moreno]

Not everything in the 90's was selling like hot cakes. And how am I using the 90's as a "standard bearer"? If you take a look at the sales charts over the lastfew years, you would definitely see that Wolverine's popularity has definitely wanned over the last 10+ years. And CC's ideas are based on the notion that a company should make decisions that will keep the company earning as much money as possible in the LONG TERM and not a lump sum of money in the short term. Many company's have went out of business because of short term thinking and profits.

And those pointless Wolverine books sell more then books written by SOME other writers who's names I will not mention. So what's your point?

So in a time when consumer spending is down you want Marvel to pull back one of the sure fire characters and marketing tools they have? You are constantly referring to things that happened in the 90's that's why I said you seem to be using it as the standard bearer. Really Wolverine's "over-exposure" has only been in the last few years, with a movie coming out I don't see them pushing him as a bad business plan, give the people what they want.

My basic point seems to be that you don't know what you're talking about.

[rwsmith]

Blade X has been predicting Wolverine's demise due to overexposure for as long as I can remember posting here. At this point all I can do is laugh while Marvel continues to push the character more and more, and even into other mediums beyond comics (i.e., games, movies, cartoons, toys, etc.).

At some point I'm sure people will stop buying things that feature the character. I'm also sure that the world will end at some point too. Doesn't mean it's going to happen anytime soon.

Blade X is like the guy in Times Square with the sign that says "The end is nigh." Eventually he'll be right. Just not today. :wink:

[Blade X]

Wolverine's held onto his popularity since the 80's. Yes, guys like the Punisher, Ghost Rider and Lobo peaked in the 90's and then kind of fizzled out, but Wolverine didn't and he's not going to anytime soon. It's just fact. You need to learn to accept it. He's a more versatile character than those three examples you keep throwing out, and works in a much larger variety of settings.

Right now, in addition to all of the comic books he's appearing in, he's got his own movie coming out as well as a popular cartoon that he headlines. One could really argue that the character is just now peaking in terms of his potential mainstream appeal. So, even if what you say is true (and it's not), he's had a pretty great 30+ year run! :wink:

And yet, despite his current mainstream exposure, none of his books consistently sell in the top 5 like his book used to during the late 80's and throughout the 90's.

One of the reasons why I think Wolverine's popularity didn't fizzle in the 90's like Lobo,Punisher,and Ghost Rider's popularity did, is because of the mystery surrounding the characters origin. Notice how the character's popularity has waned since his origin was revealed. Combine the revelation of his origin along with the over exposure of the character, and the characters days (in terms of SELLING POWER when it comes to comics) are numbered.

[Blade X]

So in a time when consumer spending is down you want Marvel to pull back one of the sure fire characters and marketing tools they have? You are constantly referring to things that happened in the 90's that's why I said you seem to be using it as the standard bearer. Really Wolverine's "over-exposure" has only been in the last few years, with a movie coming out I don't see them pushing him as a bad business plan, give the people what they want.

My basic point seems to be that you don't know what you're talking about.

Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. Many of the things Marvel is doing now are the same damn things they did back in the 90's.

[Blade X]

Blade X has been predicting Wolverine's demise due to overexposure for as long as I can remember posting here. At this point all I can do is laugh while Marvel continues to push the character more and more, and even into other mediums beyond comics (i.e., games, movies, cartoons, toys, etc.).

At some point I'm sure people will stop buying things that feature the character. I'm also sure that the world will end at some point too. Doesn't mean it's going to happen anytime soon.

Blade X is like the guy in Times Square with the sign that says "The end is nigh." Eventually he'll be right. Just not today. :wink:

And so far, my predictions are coming true.

[Stephen Moreno]

Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. Many of the things Marvel is doing now are the same damn things they did back in the 90's.

So what? They should just go gracefully into the night and not try and ride out this current downturn by pimping out characters like Spider-Man and Wolverine?

[Omega Alpha]

And yet, despite his current mainstream exposure, none of his books consistently sell in the top 5 like his book used to during the late 80's and throughout the 90's.

More competition, because of events specially, and also DC getting stronger than it was in the 80's sales wise, and the Avengers franchise becoming more popular while the X-men one became less. And overall team books have been proven to usually be bigger sellers than solo ones. But with a popular creative team like Millar/McNiven, OML has appeared regularly in the top 10.

[Blade X]

More competition, because of events specially, and also DC getting stronger than it was in the 80's sales wise, and the Avengers franchise becoming more popular while the X-men one became less. And overall team books have been proven to usually be bigger sellers than solo ones. But with a popular creative team like Millar/McNiven, OML has appeared regularly in the top 10.

DC comics are selling worse now then they did in the 80's.

I could be wrong, but Millar and McNiven's WOLVERINE run has not appeared regularly in the top 10. And even if the book has regularly appeared in the top 10 during their run, it still doesn't disprove my statement that the book isn't regularly landing in the top 5 like the book used to do 10+ years ago. And once their run is done, the book will slide out of the top 10 again.

[Blade X]

So what? They should just go gracefully into the night and not try and ride out this current downturn by pimping out characters like Spider-Man and Wolverine?

No, they should try to expand their business outside of the niche direct market and the existing and shrinking older teen and adult comic book readership and return to aiming their books at a wider all ages audience outside the direct market.

[rojash]

No, they should try to expand their business outside of the niche direct market and the existing and shrinking older teen and adult comic book readership and return to aiming their books at a wider all ages audience outside the direct market.

While I think that's a noble goal, it will come down to price point. Comics are still viewed by the mainstream audience as "something for kids". Sure, inroads are being made, but that's still the perception. While an adult can afford $3.99 a hit, and even then maybe not, it's going to be hard to turn that into an impulse purchase via a parent, or even from their own allowance.

Mass market distribution of comics like they used to be is a bit of a pipe dream currently.

[xgeek52]

it's a little early in the morning for me to try to make a point but here it goes...

*forever is a marketing gimmick for us fans who like the claremont era pure and simple...i have no illusions about that...

*logan (wolverine) is overexposed -- even back in the 90s...and marvel will continue to overexpose him because he brings in the big bucks (*chuckles*)...

*the avengers are popular because the powers that be at marvel want them to be (never was crazy about them myself)

*and speaking only for myself, books at $3.99 a pop truely don't fit in my budget...

but back to forever (which is the topic of this thread) like i said i'm looking forward to it despite claremont's misfires of late...

but i will wait for the book to come out before i comment...

[chastmastr]

Me, I'm only getting those Wolverine minis and one-shots that don't connect with current continuity issues. (I'm also loving Wolverine: First Class and even enjoyed Wolverine and Power Pack.) So he's not actually overexposed for me, as I'm not getting the current mainstream X-Books, Wolverine or Wolverine Origins, X-Force, the Wolverine Weapon X book by Aaron, etc. at all. I almost wonder if there are two different audiences...

[chastmastr]

Me, I'm only getting those Wolverine minis and one-shots that don't connect with current continuity issues. (I'm also loving Wolverine: First Class and even enjoyed Wolverine and Power Pack.) So he's not actually overexposed for me, as I'm not getting the current mainstream X-Books, Wolverine or Wolverine Origins, X-Force, the Wolverine Weapon X book by Aaron, etc. at all. I almost wonder if there are two different audiences...

[Omega Alpha]

DC comics are selling worse now then they did in the 80's.

Dude, in the 80's, you had New Mutants and Alpha Flight selling more than JLA, Superman and Batman. For real. They only begun to compete again with Marvel much later.

[rwsmith]

And so far, my predictions are coming true.

Oh yeah. I'm certainly seeing that every time I walk into a comic store. The character is obviously dying a slow death in terms of his popularity and not making Marvel any money these days. :rolleyes:

Oookay. You just keep on believing that...:wink:

[rwsmith]

DC comics are selling worse now then they did in the 80's.

I could be wrong, but Millar and McNiven's WOLVERINE run has not appeared regularly in the top 10. And even if the book has regularly appeared in the top 10 during their run, it still doesn't disprove my statement that the book isn't regularly landing in the top 5 like the book used to do 10+ years ago. And once their run is done, the book will slide out of the top 10 again.

Yeah, you're right. Wolverine was ranked 11th in December (when the last issue shipped). Behind 3 event books (Secret Invasion, Final Crisis, Ultimatum), 6 event tie-ins (Mighty Avengers, Secret Invasion: Dark Reign, 2 issues of New Avengers, 2 issues of Batman) and Loeb's Hulk "sales juggernaut" (that continues to drive people crazy by staying in the Top 10).

Logan is obviously no longer a draw at all. :LOL:

[Joe Franklin]

Logan is obviously no longer a draw at all. :LOL:

Yep.

That Wolverine guy is just about dead. Top 10 selling books are doomed for cancellation very soon.:biggrin:

[Omega Alpha]

Yeah, you're right. Wolverine was ranked 11th in December (when the last issue shipped). Behind 3 event books (Secret Invasion, Final Crisis, Ultimatum), 4 event tie-ins (Mighty Avengers, 2 issues of New Avengers, 2 issues of Batman) and Loeb's Hulk "sales juggernaut" (that continues to drive people crazy by staying in the Top 10).

Logan is obviously no longer a draw at all. :LOL:

Yeah, and all that considering the story in his solo is set in an alternate timeline future, and the only hero starring besides him is an old and blind Hawkeye. Logan is clearly is not popular anymore.

[Blade X]

Dude, in the 80's, you had New Mutants and Alpha Flight selling more than JLA, Superman and Batman. For real. They only begun to compete again with Marvel much later.

Let's say (hypothetically speaking, since I don't have the actual figures for those books) that JLA,SUPERMAN,and BATMAN were consistently selling between 170,000 and 200,000 copies a month each. Now compare those sales figures with the current sales figures of those books today and then tell me that those same books are selling better today then they were selling during the 80's. Remember, back in the 80's, a book consistently selling 100,000 copies a month was on the verge of being canceled. Today, 100,000 copies is seen as a huge hit.

[Blade X]

Oh yeah. I'm certainly seeing that every time I walk into a comic store. The character is obviously dying a slow death in terms of his popularity and not making Marvel any money these days. :rolleyes:

Oookay. You just keep on believing that...:wink:

What exactly do you see when you walk into a comic shop?

[Jake V]

What exactly do you see when you walk into a comic shop?

Buncha nerds usually.

[Blade X]

Yeah, you're right. Wolverine was ranked 11th in December (when the last issue shipped). Behind 3 event books (Secret Invasion, Final Crisis, Ultimatum), 6 event tie-ins (Mighty Avengers, Secret Invasion: Dark Reign, 2 issues of New Avengers, 2 issues of Batman) and Loeb's Hulk "sales juggernaut" (that continues to drive people crazy by staying in the Top 10).

Logan is obviously no longer a draw at all. :LOL:

Ask yourself this question. How high do you think WOLVERINE would have ranked on the sales chart if (a) Millar and McNiven (more so McNiven then Millar) weren't the creative team or (b) if the book didn't have a variant cover? How well does the book sell when it's not taking part in a crossover?

[Joe Franklin]

Buncha nerds usually.


Have you ever been to a comic shop with several gaming tables set up in it?

:eek: You will see freaks in there, you never thought existed in real life.

[Jake V]

Ask yourself this question. How high do you think WOLVERINE would have ranked on the sales chart if (a) Millar and McNiven (more so McNiven then Millar) weren't the creative team or (b) if the book didn't have a variant cover? How well does the book sell when it's not taking part in a crossover?

the book didn't have a variant cover, and isn't taking part in a crossover.

Are you gonna say that Millar and Mcniven are gimmicks to boost sales?

[Joe Franklin]

the book didn't have a variant cover, and isn't taking part in a crossover.

Are you gonna say that Millar and Mcniven are gimmicks to boost sales?

He's still missing the fact that the Wolverine ongoing is a top 25 seller no matter the creative team.

But when it changes over to Dark Wolverine in a few months, starring Daken, it will plummet.

[Omega Alpha]

Ask yourself this question. How high do you think WOLVERINE would have ranked on the sales chart if (a) Millar and McNiven (more so McNiven then Millar) weren't the creative team or (b) if the book didn't have a variant cover? How well does the book sell when it's not taking part in a crossover?

It didn't have a variant cover.

And, yes, a book sells more with a very popular creative team than without one. Shocking, isn't it?

[Jake V]

It didn't have a variant cover.

And, yes, a book sells more with a very popular creative team than without one. Shocking, isn't it?

Oh yeah? Well how much would it sell if it had a creative team that no one liked!?!?!??!

That's the true test!

[Blade X]

the book didn't have a variant cover, and isn't taking part in a crossover.

Are you gonna say that Millar and Mcniven are gimmicks to boost sales?

D'OH, you're right about the book not having a variant cover.

I NEVER said the book was CURRENTLY taking part in a crossover. I said "How well would the book sell if it was not taking part in a crossover".

I wouldn't exactly say that Millar and McNiven are gimmicks to boost sales. However, I will say (as I said in my previous post) that they are the MAIN reason why sales are UP on the book (selling around 84,000 copies). Before their run started, the book was selling about 62,000 copies a month.

[Blade X]

It didn't have a variant cover.

And, yes, a book sells more with a very popular creative team than without one. Shocking, isn't it?

But if Wolverine's popularity was as strong as it was back in the 80's and 90's, then sells on his book would remain around that high level NO MATTER who the creative team is.

[Blade X]

Oh yeah? Well how much would it sell if it had a creative team that no one liked!?!?!??!

That's the true test!

Around 62,000 copies (and falling) as I pointed out in one of my previous posts).

[Michael P]

I realize the advance solicits have been available for a bit, but I only just read them, so bear with me:

BA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That old Jim Lee poster is actually the cover? BA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Sean Whitmore]

But if Wolverine's popularity was as strong as it was back in the 80's and 90's, then sells on his book would remain around that high level NO MATTER who the creative team is.

There's not really a basis for that, though, as Wolverine had pretty consistently popular creative teams during the whole time he sold that well.


SEAN

[Blade X]

There's not really a basis for that, though, as Wolverine had pretty consistently popular creative teams during the whole time he sold that well.


SEAN

Well depending on who you ask, that could be debated. IMO, the best WOLVERINE writer is Larry Hama.

[Sean Whitmore]

Well depending on who you ask, that could be debated. IMO, the best WOLVERINE writer is Larry Hama.

Well, quality can be debated, but in terms of popularity, I don't think names like Claremont, Buscema, Peter David, Hama, Byrne, and Silvestri (anyone who worked on it for more than, say, 5 issues) would be argued.

And agreed about Hama...at least, early Hama. Before Dirt Nap and noseless Wolvie, etc.


SEAN

[Stephen Moreno]

Around 62,000 copies (and falling) as I pointed out in one of my previous posts).

So the sales only count when they don't have a popular creative team?

[rojash]

I realize the advance solicits have been available for a bit, but I only just read them, so bear with me:

BA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That old Jim Lee poster is actually the cover? BA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I like the poster a lot, but the way they turned it into the two covers is a bit ridiculous. I hope that's not the final art.

[Blade X]

So the sales only count when they don't have a popular creative team?

I see you're still missing the point.

Again, if Wolverine is as popular today as he was back during the 80's and 90's, and if his MAIN book as huge a seller as some of you claim, then why can't his book consistently maintain those high sales when (a) there are no variant covers (b) a popular creative team on the book or (c) the book is NOT participating in some kind of huge event crossover?

[Novaya Havoc]

I realize the advance solicits have been available for a bit, but I only just read them, so bear with me:

BA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That old Jim Lee poster is actually the cover? BA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

LOL rite?

Talk about copyright.

I feel sorry for Jim Lee right now.

[rwsmith]

But if Wolverine's popularity was as strong as it was back in the 80's and 90's, then sells on his book would remain around that high level NO MATTER who the creative team is.

Batman, Superman and Spider-man all sell poorly when they don't have all-star creative teams on their books as well. Does that mean that they are not popular characters anymore either?

Your argument is stupid for a couple of reasons:

#1 - Marvel is producing far more titles than they were in the 80's and 90's, yet their readership overall has actually declined. Combine that with the fact that you've got a big event going on just about every year with tons of tie-ins, and it's only logical that sales on most books cannot be sustained over the 100K mark without a "hot" writer, artist or both (or tie-in to one of the aforementioned events).

#2 - Even at 62,000 copies a month when Guggenheim and Chaykin were on the book, Wolverine still sold better than the vast majority of books out there---particularly other solo titles. At the end of the day, you could put Millar and McNiven on Cable, Black Panther, Daredevil or Rom the Space Knight and those titles would not sell as well as Millar and McNiven on Wolverine. Plus, if Millar wanted to do one of those characters he would. But he'd rather tell a Wolverine story instead. Because Wolverine is more popular with the creators as well as the fans. :tongue:

Look, I understand what you're saying. If there was only one Wolverine book, it might be a Top 10 book selling 90-100K copies every single month. Maybe. But why would Marvel want to do that when they can put out two Wolverine ongoings that sell around 60K each (assuming one of them is not selling around 90K actually because it does have an all-star creative team on it) as well as several one-shots that sell better than a lot of ongoing books they put out?

In other words, why sell 90-100K worth of Wolverine titles when they can sell 150K or more all up? It's a business, man, and whether you like it or not, the facts and figures bear out what I'm saying. Wolverine makes bank for Marvel and he ain't going anywhere anytime soon. Sorry. Deal with it or continue to live in your little fantasy land where you just ignore everything but that which proves your (incorrect) assertion.

I honestly get the feeling that we could get Joe Quesada on here telling you exactly how much Wolverine makes for Marvel a month or year, and how it is definitely more than he made them in the 80's or 90's, and you'd still cling to your mistaken belief that his popularity is somehow waning!

- He's got his own movie coming out which millions of people are going to go see.
- His own video game based on said movie.
- He headlines the new Wolverine and the X-men cartoon.
- And has tons of toys and other merchandise bearing his likeness out there.

Face it, he's doing just fine. And, like I said, when I walk into a comic shop I see that, since he's everywhere and people are buying the books he appears in. All gazillion of them! Feel free to try and pick my argument apart with more of your broken-record, selective bull$#!t. I'm done with this debate (I've spent too much time on it as is), and I think everyone with half a brain can see who's right and who's delusional. :wink:

[Novaya Havoc]

Stop rubbing this unnecessary overexposure in the faces of Dazzler fans, rwsmith.

[rwsmith]

Sorry. For what it's worth, I like Dazzler. Always have ever since I used to play the old X-men arcade game as a kid. My wife likes her too. Her name is Allison as well (with two "L's" though). Plus she's also a hot blonde. :wink:

[Novaya Havoc]

Sorry. For what it's worth, I like Dazzler. Always have ever since I used to play the old X-men arcade game as a kid. My wife likes her too. Her name is Allison as well (with two "L's" though). Plus she's also a hot blonde. :wink:

I now adore your wife, Ali. I shall call her Ali. For her name uses the incorrect spelling. But this is enlightening news!

[Blade X]

Batman, Superman and Spider-man all sell poorly when they don't have all-star creative teams on their books as well. Does that mean that they are not popular characters anymore either?

Your argument is stupid for a couple of reasons:

#1 - Marvel is producing far more titles than they were in the 80's and 90's, yet their readership overall has actually declined. Combine that with the fact that you've got a big event going on just about every year with tons of tie-ins, and it's only logical that sales on most books cannot be sustained over the 100K mark without a "hot" writer, artist or both (or tie-in to one of the aforementioned events).

#2 - Even at 62,000 copies a month when Guggenheim and Chaykin were on the book, Wolverine still sold better than the vast majority of books out there---particularly other solo titles. At the end of the day, you could put Millar and McNiven on Cable, Black Panther, Daredevil or Rom the Space Knight and those titles would not sell as well as Millar and McNiven on Wolverine. Plus, if Millar wanted to do one of those characters he would. But he'd rather tell a Wolverine story instead. Because Wolverine is more popular with the creators as well as the fans. :tongue:

Look, I understand what you're saying. If there was only one Wolverine book, it might be a Top 10 book selling 90-100K copies every single month. Maybe. But why would Marvel want to do that when they can put out two Wolverine ongoings that sell around 60K each (assuming one of them is not selling around 90K actually because it does have an all-star creative team on it) as well as several one-shots that sell better than a lot of ongoing books they put out?

In other words, why sell 90-100K worth of Wolverine titles when they can sell 150K or more all up? It's a business, man, and whether you like it or not, the facts and figures bear out what I'm saying. Wolverine makes bank for Marvel and he ain't going anywhere anytime soon. Sorry. Deal with it or continue to live in your little fantasy land where you just ignore everything but that which proves your (incorrect) assertion.

I honestly get the feeling that we could get Joe Quesada on here telling you exactly how much Wolverine makes for Marvel a month or year, and how it is definitely more than he made them in the 80's or 90's, and you'd still cling to your mistaken belief that his popularity is somehow waning!

- He's got his own movie coming out which millions of people are going to go see.
- His own video game based on said movie.
- He headlines the new Wolverine and the X-men cartoon.
- And has tons of toys and other merchandise bearing his likeness out there.

Face it, he's doing just fine. And, like I said, when I walk into a comic shop I see that, since he's everywhere and people are buying the books he appears in. All gazillion of them! Feel free to try and pick my argument apart with more of your broken-record, selective bull$#!t. I'm done here, and I think everyone with half a brain can see who's right and who's delusional. :wink:

1. I'm quite aware of the business reasons behind Wolverine's over exposure. Be that as it may, it still is short term thinking.

2. The under performance, in regards to comic sales, of popular characters like Batman,Superman,and Spider-Man (except for SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES) is EXACTLY why I'm oppose to Wolverine's current over exposure.

3. Just because you see Wolverine comics every where in comic shops DOES NOT mean that plenty of people are actually buying all of those Wolverine books.

[rwsmith]

Ok. Wolverine is doomed due to his over-exposure just like Spider-man, Superman and Batman. You are right. I can see that now. The end is nigh!

I told you, I'm done with this topic. It's boring me. Let's talk about something else.

[rwsmith]

*double post*

[Prodigy55]

Yes, I agree.
Let's talk about Kitty's weird and sudden change in clothing style :O

[rwsmith]

She appears to be wearing a rather unflattering silver number these days.

[Stephen Moreno]

I see you're still missing the point.

Again, if Wolverine is as popular today as he was back during the 80's and 90's, and if his MAIN book as huge a seller as some of you claim, then why can't his book consistently maintain those high sales when (a) there are no variant covers (b) a popular creative team on the book or (c) the book is NOT participating in some kind of huge event crossover?

No book is selling what it was in the 80's and 90's, so your comparison is flawed.

[creaky]

Is Nightcrawler laughing at Feral on the cover?

[Blade X]

Ok. Wolverine is doomed due to his over-exposure just like Spider-man, Superman and Batman. You are right. I can see that now. The end is nigh!

I told you, I'm done with this topic. It's boring me. Let's talk about something else.

oooooohhhhhhhhhh sarcasm.

You guys are right. Wolverine will always be a mega popular character. His books will always sell well. Hell, since his mere appearance is enough to sell ANY book, then it should be mandatory that he be should appear at least once in every issue of every single Marvel book so that sales will be up on those books.

[Jake V]

oooooohhhhhhhhhh sarcasm.

You guys are right. Wolverine will always be a mega popular character. His books will always sell well. Hell, since his mere appearance is enough to sell ANY book, then it should be mandatory that he be should appear at least once in every issue of every single Marvel book so that sales will be up on those books.

This is the first time you've been correct since you started posting.

[Sean Whitmore]

3. Just because you see Wolverine comics every where in comic shops DOES NOT mean that plenty of people are actually buying all of those Wolverine books.

It means that enough people are buying them.


SEAN

[SayOcean]

where is this Claremont's Abandoned Plot thread you speak of?

[Stephen Moreno]

where is this Claremont's Abandoned Plot thread you speak of?

Located in the Search Function.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Wow.

And to think this epic debate started out as a preemptive strike against people laughing at the book's sale and Claremont's pull.

If that ain't masterful diversionary tactics, I don't know what is.

Gotta say, I'm surprised nobody proposed we blamedthe EVIL! editors, Cyclops, Dazzler, and then move on already to making actual predictions.

[DrDoom616]

So, just what is this plot thread that never was, but is now being thrust upon x-men continuity?

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

So, just what is this plot thread that never was, but is now being thrust upon x-men continuity?

It isn't thrust upon x-men continuity, actually. Pure AU.

Best guess is the editors humored CC for the sake of karma.

[DrDoom616]

Is it an ongoing?

Is is a mini?

if it's an ongoing that is basically a part of x-men continuity, then, yes it is being forced in as part of continuity, if it's just a mini, then i can live with that, as it is a story that was never told.

[Omega Alpha]

Is it an ongoing?

Is is a mini?

if it's an ongoing that is basically a part of x-men continuity, then, yes it is being forced in as part of continuity, if it's just a mini, then i can live with that, as it is a story that was never told.

Nope. It's an ongoing that it is out of continuity.

[ThisMortalSoil]

I'm a fan of alternate universes so I'll check out a couple issues, see how I feel about it then. I tore through the "Mutant Genesis" trade a few months ago so I'll be able to pick up right from there :evilsmile:

[jarrod]

Is Nightcrawler laughing at Feral on the cover?
Laughing AND pointing. Maybe one of her pasties slipped?

[MartinRedmond]

Hopefully, Chris will kill Wolverine right away so we can get a high quality book.

[rwsmith]

Good idea. Then it can get cancelled even faster than it's going to anyway. :LOL:

Seriously, though, I hope he does. This should be the "fanwank" book where great Claremont creations like Sage and Thunderbird III take center stage to appease the hardcore CC followers. Let Cyclops and Jean retire, kill Wolverine, and so on and so forth.

It will be great (if you like that sort of thing).

[MartinRedmond]

Exactly! :} And I'm sure the Claremont Police will be there every single issue to share your extensive knowledge of an author you disdain so badly.