X-Men: Forever - News and Discussion [Archive] - Page 2

jarrod

02-08-2009, 01:12 PM

Well, to be fair, Marvel didn't let him alway do whatever he wanted back then, and it more than once it turned out to be a good idea (like in DPS).
I think this is key. The contributions of Louise Jones (now Simonson) and Ann Nocenti in shaping the golden era of X-books really goes largely uncredited imo, and I think both had a heavy hand in guiding the tone and direction (and ultimately success) of the X-Men. Claremont deserves much praise, no doubt, but it's NEVER been a one man show. At it's best, Uncanny X-Men was a several men and one (or two with Glynis) smart woman show. :biggrin:

I'm thrilled we see a talent like Marjorie Lui rising in the ranks today... enough with the X-Frat.

Novaya Havoc

02-08-2009, 02:38 PM

But....but....Dazzler SUCKED as a character before she joined the X-Men.:evilsmile:

She still sucks less than your mother on a Thursday afternoon. :evilsmile:

Blade X

02-08-2009, 03:58 PM

She still sucks less than your mother on a Thursday afternoon. :evilsmile:

ooooohhhhhh, mama jokes. Let's get off of mothers, since I just got off of yours.:evilsmile:

Stephen Moreno

02-08-2009, 03:58 PM

ooooohhhhhh, mama jokes. Let's get off of mothers, since I just got off of yours.:evilsmile:

Quit humping the ground.

Novaya Havoc

02-08-2009, 03:59 PM

ooooohhhhhh, mama jokes. Let's get off of mothers, since I just got off of yours.:evilsmile:

My momma is only into white dudes. So I know this is a lie.

Blade X

02-08-2009, 04:42 PM

My momma is only into white dudes. So I know this is a lie.

LOL

Well you know what they say "Once they go black, they never come back".:smile:

Beast

02-08-2009, 05:20 PM

You two need to get a room.

Joe Franklin

02-08-2009, 05:36 PM

You two need to get a room.

They wouldn't know what to do with each other.:biggrin:

Nachturne

02-08-2009, 06:05 PM

LOL

Well you know what they say "Once they go black, they never come back".:smile:

I did ;)

Claremont's promotion of this book has been over the top annoying and even downright disrespectful to other creators all weekend. He's been basically telling fans who ask about it that this is the REAL story and if they want what the Xmen REALLY are, read THIS. It's bogus.

I'm very anti-promote your stuff by taking a crap on everyone else. Though he was very supportive in the Xmen panel and I give him credit there.

He has his KATZCHEN!!!!!!

Blade X

02-08-2009, 08:06 PM

I did ;)

I'm very anti-promote your stuff by taking a crap on everyone else.

ah, but the question is will you go black again?:smile:

I agree with your 2nd point 100% (even though I PARTLY agree with him).

Novaya Havoc

02-08-2009, 08:34 PM

LOL

Well you know what they say "Once they go black, they never come back".:smile:

We all know that is a propaganda myth. It's one of life's greatest lies to impressionable youths, like "Financial Aid" (nee, Indentured Servitude) for college tuition or "promise rings."

alf_to_the_rescue

02-08-2009, 08:41 PM

I feel harassed by all this sexual tension.

Novaya Havoc

02-08-2009, 08:42 PM

I feel harassed by all this sexual tension.

Let me quote for you one of the greatest intellectual thinkers of the 20th century so you understand there is no sexual tension here:

Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.

metalgorgomon

02-08-2009, 08:46 PM

I think I might give this series a try. Probably two or three arcs.
The possibility of having telepathic Psylocke (and maybe British) seals me on this one.
Too bad Grummet's the artist. He's not a bad artist. It's just going to be looked too New-Exiles-y.

No mention of Wolverine-Psylocke-Jubilee yet.
The Madripoor Trio is going for a secret mission??

Blade X

02-08-2009, 08:58 PM

While I'm a huge Grummet fan, I would also like to see both Salvador Larocca and Ron Lim share the art duty's with Gummet on this book as rotating artists.

metalgorgomon

02-08-2009, 09:16 PM

While I'm a huge Grummet fan, I would also like to see both Salvador Larocca and Ron Lim share the art duty's with Gummet on this book as rotating artists.

Oh.. I'd love Larocca doing some art on Forever.
I really want Bachalo in this series too. Loved CC’s and Bachalo’s last effort on Uncanny.

Joe Franklin

02-08-2009, 11:22 PM

While I'm a huge Grummet fan, I would also like to see both Salvador Larocca and Ron Lim share the art duty's with Gummet on this book as rotating artists.

When the fill in artists come on board, it won't be big name veterans like Salvador or Lim. It will be craptacular cheap page rate no name artists, just like the guys who filled in for Grummett on his Exiles run.:frown:

It will be the death of the book.

Slung

02-08-2009, 11:47 PM

DarthCyclopsRLZ

02-08-2009, 11:59 PM

This could be good...maybe...

But the art...its awful! And the costumes are terrible.

If this takes place right after #3, shouldn't they be in the Lee costumes? At least at first. Ugh. Why doesn't he do this right and not make it Exiles all over again!

A certain someone = right
Everyone else = wrong

Do please get on with the program, friend.

And I still can't believe you guys still give aforementioned certain someone the benefit of the doubt. :confused:

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 12:12 AM

Slung

02-09-2009, 12:50 AM

A certain someone = right
Everyone else = wrong

Do please get on with the program, friend.

And I still can't believe you guys still give aforementioned certain someone the benefit of the doubt. :confused:

Because I remember fondly the brilliance that was once there. It has to be in there still, right? Right?

Flâneur

02-09-2009, 01:06 AM

When the fill in artists come on board, it won't be big name veterans like Salvador or Lim. It will be craptacular cheap page rate no name artists, just like the guys who filled in for Grummett on his Exiles run.:frown:

It will be the death of the book.

I don't think that will be the death of the book.

Sinister being a little boy with Gambit as his son, Jean hooking up with Dark Sabretooth and Agni-possessed TB3, Kitty (who is also a Neo! And an alternate Sat-Yr-9! Somehow!) becoming President with a magic sword, Rachel being the daughter of the Phoenix, Dazzler dying, Wolverine being an actual wolverine, the institute run exclusively by the Summers, the Shadow King all over the place (seriously), the Neo covering the world in ice, the return of Zaladane, Rogue absorbing Marrow and going into a cocoon like a caterpillar, paralysing Storm, killing Carol, having Gateway 'convert' the X-men to 'worshipping' the dreamtime and the Dead Guys! team where the dead (who stay dead) serve as heroes are what's going to kill the book.

Stephane Garrelie

02-09-2009, 01:58 AM

Yes cheap & bad fill-in artists could very well kill the book. It certainly damaged New Exiles.
I hope that on X-Men: Forever, the fill-in artists will be people of the quality of Ron Lim, Ron Frenz or Rick Leonardi.
Ryan Sook would be a dream.
Artists with a first name begining with another letter than "R" are ok too if they are as good as those.

Stephane Garrelie

02-09-2009, 01:59 AM

:smile:
Tom Grummett is pretty awesome. I'm very happy to have him as the regular artist.
Also i'm very happy with the costumes of Jean, Rogue, Storm and Gambit.
I wonder what Scott's costume will look like.
I hope we will be close to his classic version from the Cockrum/Byrne/Smith days.
An important question is to know if Ororo and Logan will be in that book. I certainly hope they will.
I'm very happy to have Nick & Charles here to.
Same for Kitty & Kurt, but i"ld like Rachel too. At the least i'ld like to see her as a regular guest or maybe someone living with them at the mansion if they are at the mansion.

End of Time

02-09-2009, 02:44 AM

I would have preferred a different artist.

Someone who could emulate the nineties style, but still keep it fresh and modern-looking. Grummet, while adequate, is not that type of artist.

Raptor

02-09-2009, 03:00 AM

I don't think that will be the death of the book.

Sinister being a little boy with Gambit as his son, Jean hooking up with Dark Sabretooth and Agni-possessed TB3, Kitty (who is also a Neo! And an alternate Sat-Yr-9! Somehow!) becoming President with a magic sword, Rachel being the daughter of the Phoenix, Dazzler dying, Wolverine being an actual wolverine, the institute run exclusively by the Summers, the Shadow King all over the place (seriously), the Neo covering the world in ice, the return of Zaladane, Rogue absorbing Marrow and going into a cocoon like a caterpillar, paralysing Storm, killing Carol, having Gateway 'convert' the X-men to 'worshipping' the dreamtime and the Dead Guys! team where the dead (who stay dead) serve as heroes are what's going to kill the book.

You're absolutely right 100%.

If even 20% of what you mentioned is true that book is going to be horrible. That sounds like the most retarded Exiles/What-if? Universe anyone could ever visit.

This is Claremont's baby right?

metalgorgomon

02-09-2009, 03:06 AM

I don't know whether these have been posted yet:

Jordan D. White on X-Men:Forever:
Indeed fans can expect a shakeup across the board. "In issue #1, the team will still be dealing with fallout of the Asteroid M debacle, and the one villain who got away, but then they'll be rocketed off in a new direction. I'll give you a hint: Magneto won't be the only classic X-Character they'll be mourning," White promises.
http://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.6816.NYCC_~apos~09~colon~_Claremont_R eturns_to_X-Men

Okay.. that better not be Wolverine... Xavier? One of the O5?

Claremont in Wizard Universe:
The other significant thing about Forever is that Mark and I feel that traditional conflicts, traditional adversaries and traditional circumstances are the province of Uncanny and X-Men: Legacy. We're not interested in that. The thought, goal and ambition here is to present what we hope will be totally new and original adversaries, circumstances and characters...except for Sentinels. No more fantasies, no more switching genders, no more extreme curses, no more "darns" and "goodness graciouses." We're trying to eliminate all the Claremont clichés in one fell swoop and see what happens next.
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/020709nyccclaremont.html

No more Claremont cliches? I'm not sure whether CC's fan will love that idea. This series seems to be taking into new direction. But he didn't mention no more "What The Devil" though.. Perhaps that'll stay..

DeadXMan

02-09-2009, 03:08 AM

you had me at at dazzler dying.

I am defiantly going to getting this now

Raptor

02-09-2009, 03:27 AM

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7429/xmforev01covcolv2yq2.jpg

I'm curious as to Nightcrawler and Kitty Pryde's inclusion here. It was very well established they were Excalibur members back then, and I wonder how it'll be explained them coming over?

Of course, this photo doesn't say this will be the lineup 6 months later. Claremont even said this same thing back then. An ever changing lineup.

What the hell happened to Kittty and Gambit?
Kitty looks a little testosterone laden and that short hair I'm really not down with.
I can only assume the guy in the back with a staff is gambit? I sure hope not. Words cannot describe how much that costume/outfit makes me want to vomit.

This book sounds like something I may peruse at Borders or if someone I know is foolish enough to spend hard earned money on it. I sure won't be purchasing an issue.

It looks exactly like a long running "What-If?".

I won't bash Claremont, it just isn't worth it. That and I hope the art isn;t his fault. if so, I will bash away.

Flâneur

02-09-2009, 03:57 AM

You're absolutely right 100%.

If even 20% of what you mentioned is true that book is going to be horrible. That sounds like the most retarded Exiles/What-if? Universe anyone could ever visit.

This is Claremont's baby right?
Those are some of the CC danglers I can think of off of the top of my head. Considering how self-referential he is and how sore he is about what went down when he left, I'm guessing a decent amount of that will come about.
I don't know whether these have been posted yet:

Jordan D. White on X-Men:Forever:

http://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.6816.NYCC_~apos~09~colon~_Claremont_R eturns_to_X-Men

Okay.. that better not be Wolverine... Xavier? One of the O5?

Claremont in Wizard Universe:

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/020709nyccclaremont.html

No more Claremont cliches? I'm not sure whether CC's fan will love that idea. This series seems to be taking into new direction. But he didn't mention no more "What The Devil" though.. Perhaps that'll stay..
I'm guessing the death is either the Professor or Dazzler, since CC has always wanted to off those. Maybe Psylocke (again) so he can put her back in a British body. I don't hold much hope for the new bit, he says everything is new at the start of each run and we know how that goes. It's interesting to see that someone has been raking him over the coals about his writing though.

metalgorgomon

02-09-2009, 05:04 AM

I'm guessing the death is either the Professor or Dazzler, since CC has always wanted to off those. Maybe Psylocke (again) so he can put her back in a British body. I don't hold much hope for the new bit, he says everything is new at the start of each run and we know how that goes. It's interesting to see that someone has been raking him over the coals about his writing though.

Since Magneto is apparently dead, I don't think he'll kill Xavier.
But Dazzler?? I didn't know CC has always wanted to kill her. I thought he likes her. I think he's the only X writer that used her in the past.

As for Psylocke.. I'd prefer he ditch the idea of killing her just to bring her back in a British body. There are many ways to do that. Heck.. she can afford plastic surgery.

I wouldn't bet on him to change his style of writing. But it'll be nice if he can tone down the thought balloons and cliches..

Leirus

02-09-2009, 05:20 AM

I don't think that will be the death of the book.

Sinister being a little boy with Gambit as his son, Jean hooking up with Dark Sabretooth and Agni-possessed TB3, Kitty (who is also a Neo! And an alternate Sat-Yr-9! Somehow!) becoming President with a magic sword, Rachel being the daughter of the Phoenix, Dazzler dying, Wolverine being an actual wolverine, the institute run exclusively by the Summers, the Shadow King all over the place (seriously), the Neo covering the world in ice, the return of Zaladane, Rogue absorbing Marrow and going into a cocoon like a caterpillar, paralysing Storm, killing Carol, having Gateway 'convert' the X-men to 'worshipping' the dreamtime and the Dead Guys! team where the dead (who stay dead) serve as heroes are what's going to kill the book.

What? That is for real? lol !!

Honestly, I am an easy fan... I will buy this for nostalgia if only avoids:

1.- Mental control. No more. please, no more
2.- X-Men against X-men
3.- Strange galactic plots
4.- New weird races (yes Neo, I am looking at you)
5.- Weird nonsensical revelations about characters (sometimes a bad idea is a bad idea)

I really hope this ends up being a success and a really good series... however...
I am extremly worried !!!

lxk

02-09-2009, 05:51 AM

Huh. Releasing a legend's unfinished work, hoping to catch a bit of nostalgia from aging fans?

I guess Marvel really liked Chinese Democracy, because this is the olny analogy I can think of.

AcesX1X

02-09-2009, 06:16 AM

CC is certainly setting us up for gold!

as i understand it, the last 18-20 years of x-men comics have been fanfiction, with the possible exception of x-treme x-men.

we have been advised not to worry however, as x-men returns from its near-decades long hiatus to rise to stardom once again.

Flâneur

02-09-2009, 06:27 AM

Since Magneto is apparently dead, I don't think he'll kill Xavier.
But Dazzler?? I didn't know CC has always wanted to kill her. I thought he likes her. I think he's the only X writer that used her in the past.

As for Psylocke.. I'd prefer he ditch the idea of killing her just to bring her back in a British body. There are many ways to do that. Heck.. she can afford plastic surgery.

I wouldn't bet on him to change his style of writing. But it'll be nice if he can tone down the thought balloons and cliches..
I actually think there's a good chance he'll kill Xavier. There's a lot of plots in the 90s which he -says- he was going to set up when Xavier died by the Shadow King's hand. Dazzler, on the other hand, he wanted to kill before they went through the Siege Perilous. She was never meant to make it into the 90s. He wanted to kill her and prop up Jubilee instead but editorial said no.

CC also doesn't really ditch ideas, this comic itself is evidence of that, so I think Psylocke's death and rebirth is imminent.

What? That is for real? lol !!
Oh yes, the cocoon was going to be made of bone and who knows what might have come out!

f4faith

02-09-2009, 06:43 AM

Since Magneto is apparently dead, I don't think he'll kill Xavier.
But Dazzler?? I didn't know CC has always wanted to kill her. I thought he likes her. I think he's the only X writer that used her in the past.

I'm actually betting it will be Cyclops - given the Cyclops push in the regular MU and how it off'd Jean and that I think CC wants to write Jean as leader given how she pretty much was in Revolution, I would not be surprised to see Cyclops die early in the series.

Charybdis4

02-09-2009, 09:42 AM

Do you think it could be Jubilee who bites the bullet????

Even with the crappy art, I'd definitely buy it if it featured a 2 page spread of the Marauders taking her out!

Blade X

02-09-2009, 09:49 AM

When the fill in artists come on board, it won't be big name veterans like Salvador or Lim. It will be craptacular cheap page rate no name artists, just like the guys who filled in for Grummett on his Exiles run.:frown:

It will be the death of the book.

I agree. CC has even gone on record as saying that he has asked numerous times to work with Laroca, but he can't since Laroca is very popular and is put on more high profile books. In other words, Marvel ONLY wants Laroca to draw high profile books that are written by popular and/or critically acclaimed writers. CC DOES NOT currently fall into the "popular" or "critically acclaimed" category.

That being said, Lim is not that big or popular an artist in the eyes of many fans, so Marvel would most likely NOT have a problem with him being a fill in artist on XMF.

Omega Alpha

02-09-2009, 09:56 AM

This could be good...maybe...

But the art...its awful! And the costumes are terrible.

If this takes place right after #3, shouldn't they be in the Lee costumes? At least at first. Ugh. Why doesn't he do this right and not make it Exiles all over again!

Another reason as to why this won't sell well. If they want to play the nostalgia of that period, having people dress completely different (and Lee's costumes are the most popular for almost all the characters) won't help it.

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 09:59 AM

I agree. CC has even gone on record as saying that he has asked numerous times to work with Laroca, but he can't since Laroca is very popular and is put on more high profile books. In other words, Marvel ONLY wants Laroca to draw high profile books that are written by popular and/or critically acclaimed writers. CC DOES NOT currently fall into the "popular" or "critically acclaimed" category.

That being said, Lim is not that big or popular an artist in the eyes of many fans, so Marvel would most likely NOT have a problem with him being a fill in artist on XMF.

Damn Marvel for wanting to put Larroca on a book that sells.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 09:59 AM

Disco Jess Minge

02-09-2009, 10:02 AM

Claremont has a chance to really do something awesome here...I hope he doesn't screw it up with ego

He had a chance to do something really awesome since 1999 but didn't. He really should have put his ego aside when he came back to the X-Titles in 2000. Especially when the profile was extremely high with the first movie coming out then and the cartoons.

Why should it change now?

Blade X

02-09-2009, 10:06 AM

Damn Marvel for wanting to put Larroca on a book that sells.

How many books was Larroca put on that were selling really well BEFORE he was put on them?

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 10:07 AM

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 10:07 AM

How many books was Larroca put on that were selling really well BEFORE he was put on them?

I don't have my cheat sheet with me, you tell me, you're the sales "expert".

Blade X

02-09-2009, 10:08 AM

He had a chance to do something really awesome since 1999 but didn't. He really should have put his ego aside when he came back to the X-Titles in 2000. Especially when the profile was extremely high with the first movie coming out then and the cartoons.

Why should it change now?

I may have missed something, but how does CC's ego factor into his 2nd run?

Blade X

02-09-2009, 10:10 AM

You're wrong, he said the issues open with a funeral service and it's not just Magneto's funeral either.

D'OH, I missed that part. Still it doesn't mean that the the other person who is dead is really dead.

Nachturne

02-09-2009, 10:11 AM

You're wrong, he said the issues open with a funeral service and it's not just Magneto's funeral either.

I'm pretty sure Xavier is dead. That came up in the Xmen panel.

timbox

02-09-2009, 10:12 AM

This book is mostly for old people, right?

MartinRedmond

02-09-2009, 10:12 AM

Just ignore them, Blade X, they both prolly enjoy a fanservice wankfest like X-Force. X-Force: now with more lube on all characters.

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 10:12 AM

D'OH, I missed that part. Still it doesn't mean that the the other person who is dead is really dead.

He said in one of the interviews from NYCC, I want to say it was the IGN.com one, not sure, but that if he kills them in this book, they are dead.

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 10:13 AM

Just ignore them, Blade X, they both prolly enjoy a fanservice wankfest like X-Force. X-Force: now with more lube on all characters.

I find it hilarious that you call X-Force fanservice wankfest while defending this book. The irony is too much.

MartinRedmond

02-09-2009, 10:14 AM

I may have missed something, but how does CC's ego factor into his 2nd run?

Duh! Chris Claremont clearly B]OWES[/B] DiscoJessieMinge, BIG TIME! Oh can you NOT SEE THAT!!!?!?!
>:{

MartinRedmond

02-09-2009, 10:15 AM

I find it hilarious that you call X-Force fanservice wankfest while defending this book. The irony is too much.

That's cool with me, cause I really don't give a crap what you think. :D

Beast

02-09-2009, 10:15 AM

You guys do know that CC has NOT said he was going to kill anyone off anytime soon. However, he did say that ALL of the characters are at risk for death. In other words, he wants the fans to be on the edge of their toilet seats and having the feeling that ANYTHING can happen to ANY CHARACTER at ANY TIME.
As Stephen Morano said, someone else is going to die.

But it wasn't CC that confirmed it. It was Editor Jordan D. White on Marvel.Com.

"In issue #1, the team will still be dealing with fallout of the Asteroid M debacle, and the one villain who got away, but then they'll be rocketed off in a new direction. I'll give you a hint: Magneto won't be the only classic X-Character they'll be mourning," White promises.

Beast

02-09-2009, 10:20 AM

He said in one of the interviews from NYCC, I want to say it was the IGN.com one, not sure, but that if he kills them in this book, they are dead.
It was in a few of the interviews. Including the one here.

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 10:23 AM

That's cool with me, cause I really don't give a crap what you think. :D

Yet you replied.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 10:26 AM

I don't have my cheat sheet with me, you tell me, you're the sales "expert".

FANTASTIC FOUR (with CC),UNCANNY X-MEN,and X-MEN.

NEW books that started with Sal as the artist like NEW UNIVERSAL and NAMOR , were either mediocre sellers or low sellers. INVINCIBLE IRON MAN started out as a strong seller, but is quickly falling down towards a mid range seller (but the gimmicks are slowing the fall down). His XTREME X-MEN run started out as a high seller (it was in the top 10), but lost some of it's steam by the time he left the book (IIRC, it was either a top 25 or top 30 seller). His FF run with CC was a consistant top 15 seller for their entire run on the book.

Disco Jess Minge

02-09-2009, 10:32 AM

I may have missed something, but how does CC's ego factor into his 2nd run?

I've been reading nothing but Claremont comics for the first seven years of reading comics. X-Men Classics was the only comic I read besides Generation X (which I read for Jubilee and Banshee) because it was the only title that had all the x-characters I liked and it wasn't completely confusing.

However, I started a subscribing to Uncanny and X-Men when Alan Davis came onboard and it was all right, but the last three issues made me go, what the heck is going on. Especially Uncanny X-Men#380. It was the first issue of Uncanny that I've read and not know what really went on. It just was full of text that made no sense to me on the first glance or reading. I had to read it four or five more times just to get a sense of what was on the page. I had thought that Terry Kavanaugh, the scripter was just ticked to leave the title and had to tie up all the plot. But it was Claremont's ghost scripting. Had I known that was his writing, I would have canceled my subscriptions. I read a couple issues of his FF run on the newsstand and I had just thought it sucked because it wasn't X-Men he was writing. That he'd be good again if he was doing X-Men.

I read that run. The first issue in the run, X-Men 100 was just fantastic. I thought we'd have gotten back the old Claremont, the one we hadn't seen since his run with Paul Smith. It was energizing to say at the least. Uncanny was good too if a little too heavy-handed with the psychic BS in the first few issues. Then summer set in, and the comics were getting worse, Claremont wrote the Slavers storyline and it was not convincing and there was no clear motivation in the plot. I thought it was a terrible waste of good art. Then it just kept getting worse.

It was completely incomprehensible. I thought, he was just a really bad writer. I knew about editorial interference in the X-titles from a Wizard article. But those writers could still write a readable script, they were able to write around the editor's demands. Steve Seagle and Joe Kelly are a shining example of this.

It wasn't until X-Treme X-Men (which had been pitched as a Marvel Knights, mature version of X-Men, and basically anything goes title) that I knew Claremont had lost it. If it wasn't for Salvarador's art, it would have been cancelled inside of a year. Larocca and other artists are the reasons why Claremont's dead weight is still afloat in this industry.

Also, look at the JLA arcs Claremont wrote, the evidence speaks for itself.

I really hope that this series is 3.99 a pop so that people won't be fooled again so easily and it'll get cancelled quickly.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 10:36 AM

As Stephen Morano said, someone else is going to die.

But it wasn't CC that confirmed it. It was Editor Jordan D. White on Marvel.Com.

"In issue #1, the team will still be dealing with fallout of the Asteroid M debacle, and the one villain who got away, but then they'll be rocketed off in a new direction. I'll give you a hint: Magneto won't be the only classic X-Character they'll be mourning," White promises.

Thanks for the info.

I think that it's either Wolverine or Prof X who get's killed. If it's Wolverine who dies, weall know that he will be back and CC will probably finally tell his "Dark Wolverine" story.

Disco Jess Minge

02-09-2009, 10:42 AM

FANTASTIC FOUR (with CC),UNCANNY X-MEN,and X-MEN.

NEW books that started with Sal as the artist like NEW UNIVERSAL and NAMOR , were either mediocre sellers or low sellers. INVINCIBLE IRON MAN started out as a strong seller, but is quickly falling down towards a mid range seller (but the gimmicks are slowing the fall down). His XTREME X-MEN run started out as a high seller (it was in the top 10), but lost some of it's steam by the time he left the book (IIRC, it was either a top 25 or top 30 seller). His FF run with CC was a consistant top 15 seller for their entire run on the book.
FF with CC and Salva wasn't the top seller like you think it to be. It was mostly in the top 30 unlike Busiek and Perez's Avengers which was in the same line (Heroes Returns), and if it wasn't in the top 5 every month, it was definitely in the top 10.

Salva was on Ghost Rider for a while but his artwork was basically flavor of the month type. The rage back then was Joe Madueria and Chris Bachalo, their style was the faux manga/CAPCOM video game stuff. That's how you were instructed to draw then. It wasn't until Salva changed his style until X-Treme and being paired with Liquid! (who at the time was trying a new method of coloring, straight to the pencils, skipping on the inking), then he got popular.

X-Treme with Salva on art, was a top 20 seller. When he left, and Kordey came on, the book sank to the top 30 and then bottomed out at the top 50. Salva went on Chuck Austen's Uncanny and sales increased.

Newuniversal didn't light the world on fire because it featured characters that only 4 people demanded. Warren Ellis (who's famous for phoning it in on work for hire stuff) was writing and Salva was undergoing another art style, the lightbox tracing (Greg Land's style). Which understandably turned off readers and fans.

Iron Man did start out strong but he's not the kind of character that can handle two ongoings at the same time and Salva is still using the lightbox on it.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 10:47 AM

I've been reading nothing but Claremont comics for the first seven years of reading comics. X-Men Classics was the only comic I read besides Generation X (which I read for Jubilee and Banshee) because it was the only title that had all the x-characters I liked and it wasn't completely confusing.

However, I started a subscribing to Uncanny and X-Men when Alan Davis came onboard and it was all right, but the last three issues made me go, what the heck is going on. Especially Uncanny X-Men#380. It was the first issue of Uncanny that I've read and not know what really went on. It just was full of text that made no sense to me on the first glance or reading. I had to read it four or five more times just to get a sense of what was on the page. I had thought that Terry Kavanaugh, the scripter was just ticked to leave the title and had to tie up all the plot. But it was Claremont's ghost scripting. Had I known that was his writing, I would have canceled my subscriptions. I read a couple issues of his FF run on the newsstand and I had just thought it sucked because it wasn't X-Men he was writing. That he'd be good again if he was doing X-Men.

I read that run. The first issue in the run, X-Men 100 was just fantastic. I thought we'd have gotten back the old Claremont, the one we hadn't seen since his run with Paul Smith. It was energizing to say at the least. Uncanny was good too if a little too heavy-handed with the psychic BS in the first few issues. Then summer set in, and the comics were getting worse, Claremont wrote the Slavers storyline and it was not convincing and there was no clear motivation in the plot. I thought it was a terrible waste of good art. Then it just kept getting worse.

It was completely incomprehensible. I thought, he was just a really bad writer. I knew about editorial interference in the X-titles from a Wizard article. But those writers could still write a readable script, they were able to write around the editor's demands. Steve Seagle and Joe Kelly are a shining example of this.

It wasn't until X-Treme X-Men (which had been pitched as a Marvel Knights, mature version of X-Men, and basically anything goes title) that I knew Claremont had lost it. If it wasn't for Salvarador's art, it would have been cancelled inside of a year. Larocca and other artists are the reasons why Claremont's dead weight is still afloat in this industry.

Also, look at the JLA arcs Claremont wrote, the evidence speaks for itself.

I really hope that this series is 3.99 a pop so that people won't be fooled again so easily and it'll get cancelled quickly.

OK, I get that you don't like CC's writing, but NONE of what you said explains how CC's EGO factors into his 2nd run.

OMT, CC only SCRIPTED the JLA arc he did with Byrne. Byrne was the writer/plotter for that arc. However, CC did write a JLA mini series which was at it's best, mediocre, and at it's worst, boring crap.

Leirus

02-09-2009, 10:51 AM

So ! Changing the discussion point a bit !!

Who do you think the redhead is? I think she is Rachel !

Because Jean would never choose a dark phoenix costume...

Disco Jess Minge

02-09-2009, 11:02 AM

OK, I get that you don't like CC's writing, but NONE of what you said explains how CC's EGO factors into his 2nd run.

OMT, CC only SCRIPTED the JLA arc he did with Byrne. Byrne was the writer/plotter for that arc. However, CC did write a JLA mini series which was at it's best, mediocre, and at it's worst, boring crap.

Excuse me, read it again.

I enjoyed Claremont's writing prior to 2000. I read X-Men Classics over the core titles. That should tell you something, genius.

After X-Men Classics ended, I went to the comic book store and bought every single Uncanny X-Men issue after it ended. Averaging at five bucks a pop, I bought issues 207-279. Some of those issues were 30 dollars, but I still did odd jobs to buy them. So when you go spending hundred of dollars just to read a writer's run on a certain comic, you're pretty much invested on his career. I really enjoyed Claremont's run, I enjoyed it so much that I bought it twice, through the Essentials and various trade paperbacks.

So when he returned to the titles, and it was sorely lacking, I was disappointed. I went online to see if there was any reaction to the X-Men comics and I found that a lot of people felt the same way. Then I read some posts by the man himself and found two words that made me lose complete respect for him, Editorial Interference.

Editorial Interference doesn't make your writing incomprehensible, unreadable. In fact, editors are supposed to edit. I knew Mark Powers and Bob Harras who were editing the titles at the time were very good editors, if a bit micro-managing, but that's a good thing in Claremont's case. I wish they had rewritten his scripts, like "they" supposedly had for other Marvel comics at the time. To paint the editors as the bad guys to cover up for your bad writing shows a lot for your character or lack of it.

He blamed his bad writing on X-treme on the editorial interference, yet that title changed editors almost every three months. It had like five assistant editors at a time.

This is where his ego comes into place. That's his ego blaming the evil editors.

jarrod

02-09-2009, 11:08 AM

Dazzler, on the other hand, he wanted to kill before they went through the Siege Perilous. She was never meant to make it into the 90s. He wanted to kill her and prop up Jubilee instead but editorial said no.
Editorial gave the okay, but Marc Silvestri actually talked Claremont out of killing Dazzler. Also, I'm pretty sure it was supposed to happen after the Seige, in the Eric Beale arc.

AcesX1X

02-09-2009, 11:15 AM

CC gave us all something to ponder during con.

let me share this with you and you can speculate.

to paraphrase, "have you ever wondered why there are no old mutants?"

when magneto was brought up immediately, CC answered, "no, asteroid m is gone. this is issue 4 of the x-men. magneto is dead."

when xavier was next mentioned, CC said, "xavier is not old. he's in a clone body."

when apocalypse was next mentioned, CC replied with a shrug, "i don't know. apocalypse doesn't count."

same for selene!

timbox

02-09-2009, 11:41 AM

Didn't CC try to say that Apocalypse and Selene were not mutants?

jarrod

02-09-2009, 11:44 AM

Does Mystique count?

AcesX1X

02-09-2009, 11:45 AM

Didn't CC try to say that Apocalypse and Selene were not mutants?

that is exactly what he said! i believe CC regards selene as some true vampire goddess...so far above mutants.

i believe CC regards apocalypse as some egyptian pest...to be stomped underneath the heels of history.

tetragene

02-09-2009, 11:59 AM

Editorial gave the okay, but Marc Silvestri actually talked Claremont out of killing Dazzler. Also, I'm pretty sure it was supposed to happen after the Seige, in the Eric Beale arc.

I wanted to avoid this thread like the plague, but just to correct you: She was originally planned to die in the battle with Master Mold--which is what all that talk about her "powers shifting up the spectrum" & the Seige Perilous depicting her death(s) and whatnot was alluding to. Silvestri didn't want CC to kill her so he suggested the Dazzler:The Movie plot (and thus Eric Beale's invovement) as a means of Claremont not having to kill Dazzler to get her off the team.

jarrod

02-09-2009, 12:12 PM

I wanted to avoid this thread like the plague, but just to correct you: She was originally planned to die in the battle with Master Mold--which is what all that talk about her "powers shifting up the spectrum" & the Seige Perilous depicting her death(s) and whatnot was alluding to. Silvestri didn't want CC to kill her so he suggested the Dazzler:The Movie plot (and thus Eric Beale's invovement) as a means of Claremont not having to kill Dazzler to get her off the team.
Oh, thanks... I'd always thought CC was going to have her crazy fan kill her (lol).

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 12:24 PM

i believe CC regards apocalypse as some egyptian pest...to be stomped underneath the heels of history.

That's racist of him. I have a New Crusade.

Prodigy55

02-09-2009, 12:25 PM

I think Chris Claremont is cool as a cucumber.

AcesX1X

02-09-2009, 12:27 PM

I think Chris Claremont is cool as a cucumber.

CC thinks prodigy is a very useless character and is a product of fanfiction.

Joe Franklin

02-09-2009, 12:28 PM

I would be very interested to see how well this would sell if Marvel were able to reunite Claremont with Jim Lee or Marc Silvestri on X-Men forever?

I bet with Jim Lee as the artist, it would top the sales chart for issue #1. With Silvestri it would be in the top 10 at least.

Just shows how important the artists are these days when it comes to projects with low selling writers. Millar or Bendis could have a top 10 book with a no name artist, while Claremont's work sells around 20K with a no name artist.

Again, the no name fill in art will be the death of this book.:frown:

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 12:29 PM

Prodigy55

02-09-2009, 12:30 PM

CC thinks prodigy is a very useless character and is a product of fanfiction.

:frown:
CC is demoted.
To just simply cool beans.
Or maybe just beans.

Omega Alpha

02-09-2009, 12:32 PM

I bet Jim Lee would jump at the chance to work with Claremont again.

Yeah, jump out the window and run for his life.

Imraith Nimphais

02-09-2009, 12:35 PM

that is exactly what he said! i believe CC regards selene as some true vampire goddess...so far above mutants.

i believe CC regards apocalypse as some egyptian pest...to be stomped underneath the heels of history.

...surprisingly, I have no issue with this. Give the title of earth's first mutant back to its rightful owner: Namor...and Gods and Goddesses their due respect.

AcesX1X

02-09-2009, 12:51 PM

how do you think this will be addressed as a plot point, however?

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 01:02 PM

I bet Jim Lee would jump at the chance to work with Claremont again.

You tell how much Claremont liked Lee's work in this new project. He jumped at the chance to put them in the old 90's uniforms...wait...no he didn't.

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 01:06 PM

You tell how much Claremont liked Lee's work in this new project. He jumped at the chance to put them in the old 90's uniforms...wait...no he didn't.

I am upset. I miss Jean Grey's footie pajamas.

Prodigy55

02-09-2009, 01:08 PM

This book will save the X-universe from all the silliness that came after.

Novaya Havoc

02-09-2009, 01:08 PM

I am upset. I miss Jean Grey's footie pajamas.

I miss her sensible cargo pouches that didn't quite have pockets.

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 01:13 PM

I am upset. I miss Jean Grey's footie pajamas.

They were pretty great, but it was no Sage black nightie with garter belt.

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 01:13 PM

This book will save the X-universe from all the silliness that came after.

Like New X-Men right? I can't wait to read about a universe were that leech Prodigy doesn't exist.

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 01:14 PM

They were pretty great, but it was no Sage black nightie with garter belt.

Jean Grey doesn't have the legs to show off a garter belt.

Prodigy55

02-09-2009, 01:15 PM

Like New X-Men right? I can't wait to read about a universe were that leech Prodigy doesn't exist.

Do you ever say anything nice?

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 01:17 PM

Do you ever say anything nice?

Don't be so sensitive. If you're going to like a crap character, then grow a thick skin.

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 01:18 PM

Jean Grey doesn't have the legs to show off a garter belt.

Jean doesn't need one, she doesn't spread her legs for her job.

Do you ever say anything nice?

Yes.

Prodigy55

02-09-2009, 01:19 PM

I'm sorry Stephen Moreno, I didn't mean for anything I said to be mean.

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 01:22 PM

I'm sorry Stephen Moreno, I didn't mean for anything I said to be mean.

Then I take back my rudeness, I apologize.

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 01:25 PM

Then I take back my rudeness, I apologize.

Apologize to me for what you said about Sage.

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 01:25 PM

Apologize to me for what you said about Sage.

Only if you take back the slander of Jean Grey.

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 01:27 PM

Only if you take back the slander of Jean Grey.

Truth is not slander. Jean is a metaphor for anti-immigration.

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 01:28 PM

Truth is not slander. Jean is a metaphor for anti-immigration.

What does it say about Sage that Xavier thought she would be best put to use in a glorified brothel?

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 01:30 PM

What does it say about Sage that Xavier thought she would be best put to use in a glorified brothel?

It says that Scott Summers's bony ass would never meet the Hellfire Club's standards.

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 01:31 PM

It says that Scott Summers's bony ass would never meet the Hellfire Club's standards.

We all know Shaw likes his men cajun with a touch of inbreeding. Xavier knew this.

mbm721

02-09-2009, 01:33 PM

yo, was anyone else at the con this past weekend? i met claremont on saturday, got a poster of x-men forever, talked to him for a few minutes, and got two autographs on my fav issues. claremont was happy that the book was coming out and said he was excited but he didn't convey much excitement, the con was probably tiring and wearing him down by that point in the afternoon. he really couldnt say much yet except, it comes out in june and is twice a month. claremont's son said his favorite x-man was lookheed, and thought sinister was a creep. his son, who seemed to be annoying claremont, was flipping through the pencils for issue 1 of forever. claremont let me look at it, i flipped through it quick, saw some cool stuff. i don't know if i should post spoilers, there wasnt that much to spoil and it was really a flip through. the pencils looked pretty good, better than his other stuff. if other posters were there, how was your time and did you get a look at forever?

Hi-Fi

02-09-2009, 01:35 PM

AcesX1X

02-09-2009, 01:36 PM

...................

.................................................. ................

Imraith Nimphais

02-09-2009, 01:39 PM

how do you think this will be addressed as a plot point, however?

Through their practise and dealings with: science/extra-terrestrials ( En Sabah Nur-a la Stargate) and dark migic/ vipirism/evil gods (Selene)...it's just that simple...how shocking, I know.:wink: I never understood a writer (s) penchant for taking what can be seemingly so simple and direct and turning it into a convoluted, frakked up, steaming pile that it loses any sense of credibility and comprehension all for the sake of "backstory"...how they "came" to be does not have to be a 1000 page dissertation...it's wot the characters "do" after they are "born"...that's the true heart of any character driven story...as an aspiring writer, that's just how I see it.

AcesX1X

02-09-2009, 01:41 PM

no. claremont said that apocalypse and selene do not matter in this equation. they are not important.

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 01:43 PM

no. claremont said that apocalypse and selene do not matter in this equation. they are not important.

I wonder if he's going to steal from Bendis, saying that mutants are the modern by-product of a Wolverine virus or something stupid?

Petes Pants

02-09-2009, 01:46 PM

So all I've gathered from mbm's post is that jarrod is Chris Claremont's son.

Joe Franklin

02-09-2009, 01:46 PM

mbm721

02-09-2009, 01:47 PM

Was there a lot of Rogue in those pages?

Thanks in advance.

hmmm, a lot? there was a lot of everybody, but i do remember her dressed in the flight jacket lee look.

Hi-Fi

02-09-2009, 01:57 PM

hmmm, a lot? there was a lot of everybody, but i do remember her dressed in the flight jacket lee look.
Thank you.

Food for thought. Definitely some food for thought.

DeniseXfrost

02-09-2009, 02:03 PM

Kitty looks fierce.

f4faith

02-09-2009, 02:03 PM

We all know Shaw likes his men cajun with a touch of inbreeding. Xavier knew this.

That's just for a quick feel. To get Shaw all riled up and ready to throw them in a submissive hold, he needs short, hairy, and feral. Scott's boney geekness isn't even worthy of a glance.

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 02:06 PM

Thank you.

Food for thought. Definitely some food for thought.

I'm sure that at the end of issue #1 (X-Men #4) she will be ditching that fugly jacket for the far superior vest she is wearing in the promo art.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 02:08 PM

Excuse me, read it again.

I enjoyed Claremont's writing prior to 2000. I read X-Men Classics over the core titles. That should tell you something, genius.

After X-Men Classics ended, I went to the comic book store and bought every single Uncanny X-Men issue after it ended. Averaging at five bucks a pop, I bought issues 207-279. Some of those issues were 30 dollars, but I still did odd jobs to buy them. So when you go spending hundred of dollars just to read a writer's run on a certain comic, you're pretty much invested on his career. I really enjoyed Claremont's run, I enjoyed it so much that I bought it twice, through the Essentials and various trade paperbacks.

So when he returned to the titles, and it was sorely lacking, I was disappointed. I went online to see if there was any reaction to the X-Men comics and I found that a lot of people felt the same way. Then I read some posts by the man himself and found two words that made me lose complete respect for him, Editorial Interference.

Editorial Interference doesn't make your writing incomprehensible, unreadable. In fact, editors are supposed to edit. I knew Mark Powers and Bob Harras who were editing the titles at the time were very good editors, if a bit micro-managing, but that's a good thing in Claremont's case. I wish they had rewritten his scripts, like "they" supposedly had for other Marvel comics at the time. To paint the editors as the bad guys to cover up for your bad writing shows a lot for your character or lack of it.

He blamed his bad writing on X-treme on the editorial interference, yet that title changed editors almost every three months. It had like five assistant editors at a time.

This is where his ego comes into place. That's his ego blaming the evil editors.

Yeah I know you enjoyed CC's work before 2000, and that it is his work after 2000 that you haven't enjoyed. I apologize for not being more clear in my post.

So let me get this straight. You are basically saying that the reason CC is always blaming the editors for any "crappy" stories he writes, is because his ego to huge to accept full (or partial) responsibility for any "bad" stories he writes. I PARTIALLY agree with you on this point.

Joe Franklin

02-09-2009, 02:08 PM

I'm sure that at the end of issue #1 (X-Men #4) she will be ditching that fugly jacket for the far superior vest she is wearing in the promo art.

I agree.

Rogue has always looked best in a Green and Black costume.

Hi-Fi

02-09-2009, 02:11 PM

I'm sure that at the end of issue #1 (X-Men #4) she will be ditching that fugly jacket for the far superior vest she is wearing in the promo art.
I also wonder if she'll have become blind by the end of the issue.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 02:41 PM

Just shows how important the artists are these days when it comes to projects with low selling writers. Millar or Bendis could have a top 10 book with a no name artist, while Claremont's work sells around 20K with a no name artist.

Actually, popular artists are very important to ALL writers, no matter how popular they are or how well the books they write sell.

And you over estimate the selling power of both Bendis and Millar. If it wasn't for being put on high profile books (or high profile EVENT mini series) with variant covers,a popular artist,and lot's of hype, MOST of their books would NOT be selling all that well. Hell, even with all of those things, their books might not sell all that well (Millar's FF run is proof of that).

Sean Whitmore

02-09-2009, 02:46 PM

If it wasn't for being put on how profile books (or high profile EVENT mini series) with variant covers,a popular artist,and lot's of hype, MOST of their books would NOT be selling all that well.

You realize writers don't get those high-profile books by magic. They get them by first making lower-profile books better.

SEAN

Blade X

02-09-2009, 03:07 PM

You realize writers don't get those high-profile books by magic. They get them by first making lower-profile books better.

SEAN

Actually, writers get high profile books by making lower selling books SELL REALLY WELL. Of course, that is NOT the case with either Bendis or Millar.

Sean Whitmore

02-09-2009, 03:10 PM

Actually, writers get high profile books by making lower selling books SELL REALLY WELL. Of course, that is NOT the case with either Bendis or Millar.

I can't wait to hear why they're the exception.

SEAN

Stephen Moreno

02-09-2009, 03:28 PM

I can't wait to hear why they're the exception.

SEAN

I eagerly await this as well.

*sits patiently*

worstblogever

02-09-2009, 03:59 PM

No need to complain, if that's Sabretooth along with Ape Beast, then this just became the best book with X-Men in it's title.:cool:

Here is a quote from Claremont.

Claremont: If you want to focus down to one title, X-Men Forever offers a specific view of the X-Men from a specific point of view. It's totally different from what the other books are doing.

If you want to focus down to one title that disregards every other creator, other than myself, is what he means. And a sharp poke in the eye with a stick would be "different" than what other books are doing to me. It doesn't mean that's a reason to run out and get one.

LOL. I am so happy for this series.
I am going to read the s*** out of it.

If you did, what would be left but blank paper?

I spoke to Claremont when he was signing a handful of books for me.

"I'll leave you with a hint.", he said. "Why are there no old mutants?"

I stand there and think about it as he signs one of five X-Men #1 covers. I point to one. "Magneto's pretty old. Holocaust survivor, de-aged sure, but bro's pushing 80 by now."

And he goes, "No no, older than that."

And I said, "There's Apocalypse. Or Selene."

And he says, "Is Apocalypse a mutant...?" with a very cavalier look in his eye.

And Peter David leans over and says. "Yes, yes he is. They established that fact not long after [Louise] Simonson created him."

I'm confused as to the crypticness. Or if what CC's implying makes sense at all.

Ha! I love this story.

It's like Claremont is a standup comedian saying, "People are so lazy nowadays, I'm surprised they don't just put peanut butter and jelly in the same jar." And Peter David's in the audience shouting back, "They have that now. Smucker's makes it. It's called Goober Grape, it's good."

PAD is the man, is what I'm saying. He knows continuity backwards and forwards. Both his own, and other creators. And he's good enough to acknowledge it. And, PAD was being somewhat kind, since there were so many old mutants that already existed by this point. Sure there was Apocalypse, Selene, and Namor. But there was also...

Wolverine, of course.

Mystique and Sabretooth were revealed at that point to have been adults during World War II. As well as Destiny, for that matter.

Gideon, of the Externals, had debuted before this continuity existed. He's hundreds of years old.

Toro, the Human Torch's sidekick.

Crimson Commando, Super Sabre, and Stonewall were all World War II veterans.

Shadow King was thought to be at least Xavier's age, if not older.

So who is Claremont trying to undo, that came into existence, right after he left the X-books? A few ancient mutants who came to be from 1991-1993:

Exodus.
Candra and the rest of the Externals.

Had I to venture a guess, by undoing Exodus, there's a whole different plan for the Acolytes that will come to pass. Undoing the Externals changes a lot of the plans from X-Force, as well as a lot of Gambit's backstory in New Orleans with Candra.

And as far as why there aren't more ancient mutants? Either Sinister killed them for research (or some other wanker like the High Evolutionary) or on the off chance that the Neo were moving behind the scenes to kill off the other species

I'm compelled to read this, just as I want to watch train wrecks.

Pixie_Solanas

02-09-2009, 04:03 PM

I love Grummett, the man knows how to draw.

Slung

02-09-2009, 04:38 PM

ExodusCloak

02-09-2009, 04:45 PM

Slung

02-09-2009, 04:53 PM

I don't think it's so much the artist more then the writer telling the artist what to draw.

I don't think Claremont has any say as to coloring or to the complete lack of artistic expression in the piece we've seen.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 05:07 PM

I can't wait to hear why they're the exception.

SEAN

I NEVER said they were the exception, I said that this "WAS NOT THE CASE" with them. What low selling MARVEL comic did Bendis and Millar increase the sales on?

Blade X

02-09-2009, 05:09 PM

I don't think it's so much the artist more then the writer telling the artist what to draw.

That's pretty much the way I see it also.

Slung

02-09-2009, 05:49 PM

That's pretty much the way I see it also.

How does the writer tell an artist to "draw as blandly as possible" and then tell the colorist "the more childish the coloring the better." Whether the story is bad or not, the art is a snooze-fest.

Joe Franklin

02-09-2009, 06:21 PM

I NEVER said they were the exception, I said that this "WAS NOT THE CASE" with them. What low selling MARVEL comic did Bendis and Millar increase the sales on?

They don't ever have 20K selling titles, but Claremont has had several in the past few years.

Put Millar or Bendis on New Exiles, with the same artists Claremont had, and the sales go from 20K to 50 K just because of the big name status they have.

I'm not bashing Claremont, I like a lot of his stuff, but he can't sell for crap these days without a star artist to help him out.

I am a fan of Grummett, but he is not a big name artist, which makes me suspect that X-Men forever is in for some rough sales figures.:frown:

DeadXMan

02-09-2009, 06:30 PM

frankly the only confirmed Big Name star CC was given were Cockrum and davis. everyone else were still more or less new guys establishing themselves.

Flâneur

02-09-2009, 06:44 PM

Actually, writers get high profile books by making lower selling books SELL REALLY WELL. Of course, that is NOT the case with either Bendis or Millar.

Fantastic Four, while not becoming disgustingly lucrative, has had a significant sales boost from Millar. He and Bendis also made the Ultimate Universe, which is just a big what if that's rarely successful, into a huge property. Also, Bendis has pretty much renovated the Avengers franchise - the Avengers have moved from having one OK selling title to now having Dark, New, Mighty alongside lots of extra satellite books. There's also the heap of critical acclaim they've gotten at points in their career. That is why they get the top books.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 07:07 PM

They don't ever have 20K selling titles, but Claremont has had several in the past few years.

Put Millar or Bendis on New Exiles, with the same artists Claremont had, and the sales go from 20K to 50 K just because of the big name status they have.

I'm not bashing Claremont, I like a lot of his stuff, but he can't sell for crap these days without a star artist to help him out.

I am a fan of Grummett, but he is not a big name artist, which makes me suspect that X-Men forever is in for some rough sales figures.:frown:

True, they don't CURRENTLY have 20K selling titles, but there have been past titles that they have written for Marvel that were NOT huge sellers and/or straight up sales flops like ELEKTRA,TROUBLE,SKRULL KILL KREW (a damn good book, IMO),ALIAS,and THE PULSE.

Put Millar or Bendis on EXILES with variant covers for the first 6 issues,a popular artist,and make the book a part of a major crossover, and the book would definitely rise from 20K to 50K. Without any of those gimmicks the sales of the book will either remain the same or rise to about 25K and then quickly drop back down to around 20K.

I agree with you 100% that CC cannot sell a book without a popular artist.

I also agree with you 100% about Grummett not being popular enough to sell this book and that this book is in for some rough sales.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 07:12 PM

How does the writer tell an artist to "draw as blandly as possible" and then tell the colorist "the more childish the coloring the better." Whether the story is bad or not, the art is a snooze-fest.

These days, it's very common for writers to either tell or suggest how the artist should draw the characters. IIRC, CC has done this in the past. The writer doesn't have any say in how the book is colored.

Slung

02-09-2009, 07:17 PM

True, they don't CURRENTLY have 20K selling titles, but there have been past titles that they have written for Marvel that were NOT huge sellers and/or straight up sales flops like ELEKTRA,TROUBLE,SKRULL KILL KREW (a damn good book, IMO),ALIAS,and THE PULSE.

Put Millar or Bendis on EXILES with variant covers for the first 6 issues,a popular artist,and make the book a part of a major crossover, and the book would definitely rise from 20K to 50K. Without any of those gimmicks the sales of the book will either remain the same or rise to about 25K and then quickly drop back down to around 20K.

I agree with you 100% that CC cannot sell a book without a popular artist.

I also agree with you 100% about Grummett not being popular enough to sell this book and that this book is in for some rough sales.

If CC had artwork that did not harken back to the stylings of Exiles and New Excalibur and somehow differentiated itself from basic/bland superhero storytelling, it would at least make it SEEM like he was doing something different.

Or if they hired someone who a very 90's style (like a Kubert or Portacio) they would at least make it feel like it was rewriting that time period. Instead, its going to feel like Exiles: Forever.

These days, it's very common for writers to either tell or suggest how the artist should draw the characters. IIRC, CC has done this in the past. The writer doesn't have any say in how the book is colored.
Even if CC somehow designed those sad costumes, Grummett could at least TRY to make it look good. The composition of that cover is just awful.

Nachturne

02-09-2009, 07:22 PM

Sean Whitmore

02-09-2009, 07:34 PM

I NEVER said they were the exception, I said that this "WAS NOT THE CASE" with them.

And I asked SO WHAT IS THE CASE with them?

What low selling MARVEL comic did Bendis and Millar increase the sales on?

With all these goal posts flying around, do you have to duck so you don't get hit in the head?

SEAN

Swashbuckler

02-09-2009, 07:36 PM

I was recently told by an artist (who shall remain nameless) who worked on a highly controvercial CC book that he did numerous designs for the characters before he was flat out told that he was wrong and given the edict from the man as to what they were supposed to be.

Then, as it turned out, the fans REBELED like NUTS when these (specifically two) characters were revealed.

HAHAHAHAHAHA Dyke Dazz. What the hell was Claremont thinking? Blade X? You have tons of bullshit answers, want to give this one a go?

Slung

02-09-2009, 07:38 PM

Other than Dazzler...who is the other character fans went nuts over? I don't remember anyone else in New Excalibur having a controversial look.

Flâneur

02-09-2009, 07:39 PM

Blade X

02-09-2009, 07:41 PM

Fantastic Four, while not becoming disgustingly lucrative, has had a significant sales boost from Millar. He and Bendis also made the Ultimate Universe, which is just a big what if that's rarely successful, into a huge property. Also, Bendis has pretty much renovated the Avengers franchise - the Avengers have moved from having one OK selling title to now having Dark, New, Mighty alongside lots of extra satellite books. There's also the heap of critical acclaim they've gotten at points in their career. That is why they get the top books.

The FF has NOT had a significant sales boost since Millar took over the book.

Yep, they definitely did make the ULTIMATE UNIVERSE into a huge property at one time. However, the Ultimate comics are no longer as popular as they used to be, and all of the ongoing series have had huge drops over the last year or two. Hell, Bendis is still writing ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN and that book is still shedding a couple of thousand readers each issue. I have to wonder if the Ultimate Universe as a whole is seen as some novelty gimmick concept by many fans who just wanted to see a revamped version of the MU without messing with the REAL MU. I also wonder if these books would have still sold well if the creators who were ORIGINALLY attached to write these books, wrote them. And don't get me started on the NO OVER PRINT policy that Marvel suddenly implemented when USM #1 came out in order to make the book a collectors item as a way to appeal to speculators.

The AVENGERS were a HUGE hit during the late 90's (it was a top 10 seller) when Busiek was writing the book. There was also a successful top 10 selling spin off mini series during that time called AVENGERS FOREVER. And this all happened without the aid of variant covers and a NO OVER PRINT policy (the books did have the benefit of spinning out of an event mini series). And the AVENGERS franchise was expanded back in the day with books like WEST COAST AVENGERS,AVENGERS SPOTLIGHT,and SOLO AVENGERS.

Novaya Havoc

02-09-2009, 07:41 PM

I was recently told by an artist (who shall remain nameless) who worked on a highly controvercial CC book that he did numerous designs for the characters before he was flat out told that he was wrong and given the edict from the man as to what they were supposed to be.

Then, as it turned out, the fans REBELED like NUTS when these (specifically two) characters were revealed.

Obvs Dazz and Nocturne!

Poor Michael Ryan. And I'm sure Scot Eaton would have rather re-designed Dazz differently when all the characters got temp new looks later on. This is why Eaton REBELLED and gave Dazzler Kylie face. Since Claremont is a senior citizen, he did not catch on to this small act of rebellion and it was allowed.

Nachturne

02-09-2009, 07:42 PM

Other than Dazzler...who is the other character fans went nuts over? I don't remember anyone else in New Excalibur having a controversial look.

Think about who I would be asking said artist about.

And yes, this characters one fan was not amused by the makeover. Me.

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 07:43 PM

The FF has NOT had a significant sales boost since Millar took over the book.

Yep, they definitely did make the ULTIMATE UNIVERSE into a huge property at one time. However, the Ultimate comics are no longer as popular as they used to be, and all of the ongoing series have had huge drops over the last year or two. Hell, Bendis is still writing ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN and that book is still shedding a couple of thousand readers each issue. I have to wonder if the Ultimate Universe as a whole is seen as some novelty gimmick concept by many fans who just wanted to see a revamped version of the MU without messing with the REAL MU. I also wonder if these books would have still sold well if the creators who were ORIGINALLY attached to write these books, wrote them. And don't get me started on the NO OVER PRINT policy that Marvel suddenly implemented when USM #1 came out in order to make the book a collectors item as a way to appeal to speculators.

The AVENGERS were a HUGE hit during the late 90's (it was a top 10 seller) when Busiek was writing the book. There was also a successful top 10 selling spin off mini series during that time called AVENGERS FOREVER. And this all happened without the aid of variant covers and a NO OVER PRINT policy (the books did have the benefit of spinning out of an event mini series). And the AVENGERS franchise was expanded back in the day with books like WEST COAST AVENGERS,AVENGERS SPOTLIGHT,and SOLO AVENGERS.

Unless you actually start providing spreadsheets and link to sales data, we tire of your unsubstantiated mumbo jumbo and thank you to knock it off.

Sean Whitmore

02-09-2009, 07:43 PM

Using ALL CAPS to illustrate EMPHASIS is the same thing as being RIGHT!

SEAN

Slung

02-09-2009, 07:49 PM

Think about who I would be asking said artist about.

And yes, this characters one fan was not amused by the makeover. Me.

Oh, right. :wink: Sorry! It was the lesbo stripe, huh.

Novaya Havoc

02-09-2009, 07:50 PM

I will, however, admit I like Psylocke's current outfit in New Exiles. So maybe CC can get it right once an eon.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 07:50 PM

Then, as it turned out, the fans REBELED like NUTS when these (specifically two) characters were revealed.

Let's be specific, INTERNET FANS rebelled like NUTS.:smile:

Novaya Havoc

02-09-2009, 07:53 PM

Let's be specific, INTERNET FANS rebelled like NUTS.:smile:

Why, yes. Because the geriatric "Make Mine Marvel!" handwritten letter writing fans -- the core of CC's existing base -- are dying off every year.

See: sales figures.

There is no "silent majority" that approved of that special brand of disgusting to save you, Blade X.

Joe Franklin

02-09-2009, 07:56 PM

Why, yes. Because the geriatric "Make Mine Marvel!" handwritten letter writing fans -- the core of CC's existing base -- are dying off every year.

See: sales figures.

There is no "silent majority" that approved of that special brand of disgusting to save you, Blade X.

True.

Claremont is no longer a comic book box office draw.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 07:57 PM

And I asked SO WHAT IS THE CASE with them?SEAN

Their PITCH for the comics,their past CRITICAL ACCLAIM,and because they are "good buddy's" with the EIC.

Come To Deathstrike

02-09-2009, 07:57 PM

Let's be specific, INTERNET FANS rebelled like NUTS.:smile:

No, everyone did.
Everyone in the world.
They burnt effigies in Zimbabwe.
It was global..

Blade X

02-09-2009, 08:04 PM

Even if CC somehow designed those sad costumes, Grummett could at least TRY to make it look good. The composition of that cover is just awful.

He didn't design those costumes, he most likely gave Grummett a loose description on how he wanted the characters to look, and then left the rest up to Grummett.

I should also point out that CC DOES NOT always tell every artist he works with on how he wants the characters to look. It depends on who the artist is.

Swashbuckler

02-09-2009, 08:08 PM

He didn't design those costumes, he most likely gave Grummett a loose description on how he wanted the characters to look, and then left the rest up to Grummett.

I should also point out that CC DOES NOT always tell every artist he works with on how he wants the characters to look. It depends on who the artist is.

Are you sleeping with CC? You know so much about his behind the scenes comic activity. I bet he mails you his scripts! Lucky!

Blade X

02-09-2009, 08:08 PM

Unless you actually start providing spreadsheets and link to sales data, we tire of your unsubstantiated mumbo jumbo and thank you to knock it off.

Here's a better idea, why don't you look them up and post them here yourself.

Sean Whitmore

02-09-2009, 08:09 PM

because they are "good buddy's" with the EIC.

Thank you.

I basically just wanted you to say it out loud.

SEAN

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 08:09 PM

Here's a better idea, why don't you look them up and post them here yourself.

Great, and maybe afterward you could let me wash your car and do your dishes for you.

Sean Whitmore

02-09-2009, 08:09 PM

Here's a better idea, why don't you look them up and post them here yourself.

Cause you referenced them to make your point.

Asking others to substantiate your claims is a chickenshit move.

SEAN

Swashbuckler

02-09-2009, 08:10 PM

Thank you.

I basically just wanted you to say it out loud.

SEAN

So, you're saying CC is an old fart who no one at Marvel likes? He must feel at home on the message boards!

Blade X

02-09-2009, 08:10 PM

Why, yes. Because the geriatric "Make Mine Marvel!" handwritten letter writing fans -- the core of CC's existing base -- are dying off every year.[/I]

They are the same people, you knucklehead.:smile:

Blade X

02-09-2009, 08:13 PM

Great, and maybe afterward you could let me wash your car and do your dishes for you.

Well, if you really want to.......

Blade X

02-09-2009, 08:14 PM

Cause you referenced them to make your point.

Asking others to substantiate your claims is a chickenshit move.

SEAN

No it isn't, I'm just to lazy to post the info here.:smile:

Home made ectoplasm

02-09-2009, 08:17 PM

No it isn't, I'm just to lazy to post the info here.:smile:

Come on, put a bit of work into your trolling!

Sean Whitmore

02-09-2009, 08:20 PM

No it isn't, I'm just to lazy to post the info here.:smile:

Fair enough. I'd be a hypocrite to call someone else on laziness.

SEAN

darknessatnoon

02-09-2009, 08:23 PM

I will meet Blade X halfway!

If he can provide statistics links from reputable sources, I shall put them on a spreadsheet. We can then upload that spreadsheet to the Mutant Tracker for a handy reference whenever this argument pops up!

I can be magnanimous.

Blade X

02-09-2009, 09:11 PM

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2009/02/04/marvel-month-to-month-sales-december-08/#more-7114

There's your link. The rest is up to you.

worstblogever

02-09-2009, 09:15 PM

No it isn't, I'm just to lazy to post the info here.:smile:

And yet not lazy enough to argue ad nauseum a point for a week at a time, when you could post an actual link to the sales figures points you supposedly have.

If they exist at all, of course.

I will meet Blade X halfway!

If he can provide statistics links from reputable sources, I shall put them on a spreadsheet. We can then upload that spreadsheet to the Mutant Tracker for a handy reference whenever this argument pops up!

I can be magnanimous.

I'd thank you kindly to not taint my well researched and documented reference point with "known facts" that fly directly out of someone's arse.

Heh. I said "taint".

Blade X

02-09-2009, 10:13 PM

And yet not lazy enough to argue ad nauseum a point for a week at a time, when you could post an actual link to the sales figures points you supposedly have.

If they exist at all, of course.

I'd thank you kindly to not taint my well researched and documented reference point with "known facts" that fly directly out of someone's arse.

Heh. I said "taint".

Why should I post a link to sales figures that almost anyone who discusses sales figures (and who always seem to know how well CC's books are selling) could easily look that info up themselves and/or post a link to those sales figures.

And your "well researched and documented reference point" (as much as I enjoy reading them:smile: ) are already "tainted" with a pinch of bias and a dash of ignorance.

Dusty.

02-09-2009, 11:32 PM

The FF has NOT had a significant sales boost since Millar took over the book.

Yeah, Millar's FF didn't catch on. I like it, actually. (not as much as I'm going to like Hickman and Eaglesham, I'll bet!) The numbers just aren't there, though. It's looking to drop in the 40,000's before the run wraps up. For a "superstar" writer and artist doing a mainstream comic like FF, that sucks.

Millar does sell, though. Sure, he always gets paired with a good artist, but Kickass is selling over 50,000 copies to retailers, while the Bendis and Brubaker Icon books sell considerably less. Romita Jr. is a bigger draw than Oeming or Phillips, but Millar deserves his props.

Claremont clearly doesn't sell well anymore. I still can't believe that somebody at Marvel with power made the decision to put this out twice a month. Tom Grummett is a good and solid guy, and he's capable of doing 12 issues a year. I would assume that he'd be embraced, despite not being the top of the artistic talent pool, but we don't get him alone, we get him and the mediocre second raters that are sure to draw half the issues. I just can't wrap my head around how somebody could possibly think this is a good idea creatively. :confused:

Joe Franklin

02-09-2009, 11:37 PM

Quote from assistant X-Men Forever editor Jordan White.

"In X-MEN FOREVER, Chris can continue shaping those characters again, as though he never left. Everything revealed since X-MEN #3 is fair game again. James Howlett? Never heard of him. Our Wolverine is called Logan."

Great news. I hated that Marvel gave Wolverine the name James Howlett. It sucks nutz.

worstblogever

02-10-2009, 01:17 AM

Why should I post a link to sales figures that almost anyone who discusses sales figures (and who always seem to know how well CC's books are selling) could easily look that info up themselves and/or post a link to those sales figures.

The onus is on you to prove yourself correct. You spend as much time claiming you are, without actually showing any evidence, as if you could just posting it. If you don't have a point you can prove, quit prattling on for days on end and wasting everyone's time.

All signs since 2000 show that CC's books are not a sales draw of any kind. Hell, Big Hero Six and GeNext were complete failures, and consistently failed to sell 10,000. New Exiles sales dropped, dropped, dropped from an initial 40,000 or so down past the 20,000 mark, when the plug finally got pulled.

Here's a whole place for 2008 sales that you can track all those:

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2008.html

The CC sales well is clearly running dry. You can tell everyone the sky is green, and when people tell you it's blue, demand they show you a picture to prove it true... but that doesn't make the sky green, genius.

And, I have to add... How in the f*** do I have bias on Mutant Tracker? It's hard to give a biased view if a character is alive, dead, or there's some doubt. As well as what comic they last appeared in. At this point, I'm going to recommend you get your meds upped. Because at the current dosage, it ain't workin', chum.

In closing, I'd expect X-Men: Forever to have initial sales on #1 at roughly 30,000, and drop to half that by issue #10. In that time, there will be much handshaking about the "true" destiny that was intended for the X-Universe.

jarrod

02-10-2009, 07:22 AM

Grummet may be able to draw, but he has no flair or style. For Claremont's book to not look like a retread of Exiles, he needs someone who brings something unique to the table. Even Stroman would at least give the book an identity. The lame coloring does not help that image either. Its too bright, too saccharine.
This. Grummett is tired, outdated and fundamentally limited in range... he's basically the visual representation of what Claremont detractors scream about the man's writing. It really is New Exiles Forever...

I was recently told by an artist (who shall remain nameless) who worked on a highly controvercial CC book that he did numerous designs for the characters before he was flat out told that he was wrong and given the edict from the man as to what they were supposed to be.

Then, as it turned out, the fans REBELED like NUTS when these (specifically two) characters were revealed.
To be fair, we also have highly differing on record accounts from Alan Davis as to how CC works with character design. I expect it's highly contextual, and has much to do with how well the collaboration goes overall. As is, Claremont and Ryan both seemed to be putting in a subpar job on New Excalibur, so little surprise there that there were "issues".

AcesX1X

02-10-2009, 07:27 AM

oh, i hope wasabi no ginger shows up!

jarrod

02-10-2009, 07:32 AM

I want more Elias Bogan. Srsly.

Flâneur

02-10-2009, 07:40 AM

I want more Elias Bogan. Srsly.

Don't you mean the Shadow King? You will be getting plenty of that in the Shadow King saga.

jarrod

02-10-2009, 08:00 AM

Don't you mean the Shadow King? You will be getting plenty of that in the Shadow King saga.
Elias is not some Egyptian!

*spits*

Disco Jess Minge

02-10-2009, 10:12 AM

This. Grummett is tired, outdated and fundamentally limited in range... he's basically the visual representation of what Claremont detractors scream about the man's writing. It really is New Exiles Forever...

That's not fair at all to say about Tom Grummet. I know that you are supposedly "allergic" to DC (and it's very NARROW of you to be so), but Tom did a fantastic job on the Teen Titans fill-ins. He is no way, the artistic equivalent of CC. He is a great artist, very solid storyteller, and can draw great emotion in his characters. Teen Titans #20 with Geoff Johns doing the writing is a prime example of this. He may not be flashy, but he's a great artist in the old school. Same with Alan Davis and John Romita JR.

If his art doesn't look inspired in Exiles and X-Men Forever, it's only because of Claremont's lackluster scripts. Michael Ryan did a great run on Cable and Runaways, but you found his NEX work missing something too? All because of Claremont.

Pixie_Solanas

02-10-2009, 10:15 AM

oh, i hope wasabi no ginger shows up!

Yeah, his sushi-preparation skills made him a formidable warrior.

LOL!

Honey Lemon was the only thing I liked about that entire mini - and Claremont still couldn't develop a nice story about her.

Pixie_Solanas

02-10-2009, 10:17 AM

That's not fair at all to say about Tom Grummet. I know that you are supposedly "allergic" to DC (and it's very NARROW of you to be so), but Tom did a fantastic job on the Teen Titans fill-ins. He is no way, the artistic equivalent of CC. He is a great artist, very solid storyteller, and can draw great emotion in his characters. Teen Titans #20 with Geoff Johns doing the writing is a prime example of this. He may not be flashy, but he's a great artist in the old school. Same with Alan Davis and John Romita JR.

If his art doesn't look inspired in Exiles and X-Men Forever, it's only because of Claremont's lackluster scripts. Michael Ryan did a great run on Cable and Runaways, but you found his NEX work missing something too? All because of Claremont.

Yeah, I don't get the Grummett hate. Dude's doing a solid job considering the scripts. And god help me, he actually puts HEELS on the ladies' boots so they don't look like they're parading into battle with furkin' Uggs on! It's the little things that make me so happy...

jarrod

02-10-2009, 10:23 AM

That's not fair at all to say about Tom Grummet. I know that you are supposedly "allergic" to DC (and it's very NARROW of you to be so), but Tom did a fantastic job on the Teen Titans fill-ins. He is no way, the artistic equivalent of CC. He is a great artist, very solid storyteller, and can draw great emotion in his characters. Teen Titans #20 with Geoff Johns doing the writing is a prime example of this. He may not be flashy, but he's a great artist in the old school. Same with Alan Davis and John Romita JR.

If his art doesn't look inspired in Exiles and X-Men Forever, it's only because of Claremont's lackluster scripts. Michael Ryan did a great run on Cable and Runaways, but you found his NEX work missing something too? All because of Claremont.
Listen glitterati, I know everything is somehow Claremont's fault, but I think Grummett is just miscast on X-Men Corrections. His X-work is awful, and the shit he's shoveling here is a new low even for that. This is meant to follow up the Jim Lee era, on that alone I couldn't think of a worse choice than (again) drudging up Grummett's dated ankle booties.

Somehow Chris Bachalo, Salvador Larocca and Alan Davis managed to put out engaging, provocative and sometimes beautiful work with The Great Satan. Even Igor Kordey and Scot Eaton were managing good stuff. Maybe Grummett and Ryan just aren't in their league...

Pixie_Solanas

02-10-2009, 10:25 AM

Listen glitterati, I know everything is somehow Claremont's fault, but I think Grummett is just miscast on X-Men Corrections. His X-work is awful, and the shit he's shoveling here is a new low even for that.

Somehow Chris Bachalo, Salvador Larocca, Alan Davis and even Igor Kordey managed to put out engaging, provocative and sometimes beautiful work with The Great Satan. Maybe Grummett and Ryan just aren't in their league...

Claremont poops gold and we're better off with him.

jarrod

02-10-2009, 10:27 AM

Claremont poops gold and we're better off with him.
Claremont's evolved past pooping. That's for lesser beings.

edit: also I edited to be meaner. plz reflect that.

Disco Jess Minge

02-10-2009, 10:36 AM

Listen glitterati, I know everything is somehow Claremont's fault, but I think Grummett is just miscast on X-Men Corrections. His X-work is awful, and the shit he's shoveling here is a new low even for that. This is meant to follow up the Jim Lee era, on that alone I couldn't think of a worse choice than (again) drudging up Grummett's dated ankle booties.

Somehow Chris Bachalo, Salvador Larocca and Alan Davis managed to put out engaging, provocative and sometimes beautiful work with The Great Satan. Even Igor Kordey and Scot Eaton were managing good stuff. Maybe Grummett and Ryan just aren't in their league...

I'm a Dazzler fan, but I'm not a blind glitterati. I just really think Claremont has just lost it with his writing, and he is like a black hole. Everyone gets sucked into it.

Kordey's run on X-Treme was awful. His Cable was much better because he inked his own work.

Bachalo is the writer's artist. He even made that AOA 10th anniversary mini look like gold instead of poo.

Larocca's art wasn't as clear in X-treme storytelling-wise, the only reason his art even looked good was because of Liquid!

Alan Davis and Scot Eaton are just really good artists, they know how to make a script look good.

We're just lucky that we're even getting Grummet on the title, I think he'd be much better off on something like the Avengers Initiative. Also, if you could go back and read Uncanny X-Men #322, Grummet was the fill-in artist on that one and he drew Jim Lee's costumes and they looked pretty good. He also did some Generation X fill-ins at that time and was ably to make a lot of the fans happy after Bachalo left for a year or so.

jarrod

02-10-2009, 10:45 AM

I'm a Dazzler fan, but I'm not a blind glitterati. I just really think Claremont has just lost it with his writing, and he is like a black hole. Everyone gets sucked into it.

Kordey's run on X-Treme was awful. His Cable was much better because he inked his own work.

Bachalo is the writer's artist. He even made that AOA 10th anniversary mini look like gold instead of poo.

Larocca's art wasn't as clear in X-treme storytelling-wise, the only reason his art even looked good was because of Liquid!

Alan Davis and Scot Eaton are just really good artists, they know how to make a script look good.

We're just lucky that we're even getting Grummet on the title, I think he'd be much better off on something like the Avengers Initiative. Also, if you could go back and read Uncanny X-Men #322, Grummet was the fill-in artist on that one and he drew Jim Lee's costumes and they looked pretty good. He also did some Generation X fill-ins at that time and was ably to make a lot of the fans happy after Bachalo left for a year or so.
Claremont's certainly lost the plot, his return after hospital's been dreadful all around. But if Grummett was half the artist you seem to think, I'd expect him being able to crank out better than the manure we saw on New Exiles and now Corrections. I remember his Gen X too, it was average and not near up to par with Bachalo's greatness.

Again, this just reeks of more seething "blame Claremont for everything".

Also, Kordey's X-Treme was inhumanly rushed. He wouldn't have had the time to ink his own work, though I'd agree it would've helped. His Cable work was gorgeous, but his X-Treme was still solid all things considered.

jmacleodpc19

02-10-2009, 10:53 AM

I don't think that Grummett is the right artist for this project. To follow Jim Lee, you need a little more flash.

I am very excited about this book though. I grew up in the '80's with Chris Claremont's X-Men. I can't wait to see what he has planned for these characters. No crossovers, no editorial edicts based on marketing, just solid X-Men stories that work on their own. That's when the X-Men were at their peak (for me at least). You didn't have to worry about what Wolverine was doing in seven different books each month.

Blade X

02-10-2009, 11:05 AM

Yeah, Millar's FF didn't catch on. I like it, actually. (not as much as I'm going to like Hickman and Eaglesham, I'll bet!) The numbers just aren't there, though. It's looking to drop in the 40,000's before the run wraps up. For a "superstar" writer and artist doing a mainstream comic like FF, that sucks.

Millar does sell, though. Sure, he always gets paired with a good artist, but Kickass is selling over 50,000 copies to retailers, while the Bendis and Brubaker Icon books sell considerably less. Romita Jr. is a bigger draw than Oeming or Phillips, but Millar deserves his props.

Claremont clearly doesn't sell well anymore. I still can't believe that somebody at Marvel with power made the decision to put this out twice a month. Tom Grummett is a good and solid guy, and he's capable of doing 12 issues a year. I would assume that he'd be embraced, despite not being the top of the artistic talent pool, but we don't get him alone, we get him and the mediocre second raters that are sure to draw half the issues. I just can't wrap my head around how somebody could possibly think this is a good idea creatively. :confused:

The MAIN reason why Millar's FF run hasn't sold well is because it's the FF. The FF, like the Superman comics, are hard to sell these days. Ironically, the last time the FF sold consistently well was when CC and Laroca were on the book, and shortly after that when Pacheco took over the book.

One of the reason (in addition to having more popular artists draw his books) why Millar's creator own books sale better then Bendis and Brubaker's creator owned books is because Millar, unlike Bendis and Bru, is a master of hype and self promotion (nothing wrong with that). He's a modern day Scottish version of Stan Lee.

The ONLY possible reason that I can think of for Marvel's asinine decision to make XMF bi-weekly is that Marvel knows the book will be out on time regardless who is drawing it, and therefore the book MIGHT serve as a sales substitute for the often late AXM series.

That JonoGuy

02-10-2009, 11:11 AM

I'm still on the fence whether or not I will get the series. I don't get where all this Tom Grummett hate is coming from though. Sure he's not a "kewl" artist like Lee or Larroca, but he is definitely a competent one.

jarrod

02-10-2009, 11:13 AM

I don't get where all this Tom Grummett hate is coming from though.
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7429/xmforev01covcolv2yq2.jpg

Pixie_Solanas

02-10-2009, 11:15 AM

I like that image. Jean's lookin' hawt and Sabes is back to being a feral bad-ass instead of some ponytailed WWE character.

Blade X

02-10-2009, 11:19 AM

The onus is on you to prove yourself correct. You spend as much time claiming you are, without actually showing any evidence, as if you could just posting it. If you don't have a point you can prove, quit prattling on for days on end and wasting everyone's time.

All signs since 2000 show that CC's books are not a sales draw of any kind. Hell, Big Hero Six and GeNext were complete failures, and consistently failed to sell 10,000. New Exiles sales dropped, dropped, dropped from an initial 40,000 or so down past the 20,000 mark, when the plug finally got pulled.

Here's a whole place for 2008 sales that you can track all those:

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2008.html

The CC sales well is clearly running dry. You can tell everyone the sky is green, and when people tell you it's blue, demand they show you a picture to prove it true... but that doesn't make the sky green, genius.

And, I have to add... How in the f*** do I have bias on Mutant Tracker? It's hard to give a biased view if a character is alive, dead, or there's some doubt. As well as what comic they last appeared in. At this point, I'm going to recommend you get your meds upped. Because at the current dosage, it ain't workin', chum.

In closing, I'd expect X-Men: Forever to have initial sales on #1 at roughly 30,000, and drop to half that by issue #10. In that time, there will be much handshaking about the "true" destiny that was intended for the X-Universe.

You keep accusing me of saying that "CC sells" even though I NEVER said that, and yet you say I need to up my meds LOL. Dude, get a reality check.

And you're bias against CC, NOT the characters.

Beast

02-10-2009, 11:24 AM

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7429/xmforev01covcolv2yq2.jpg
Looks good to me. Though I happen to like Grummett's work. At least it's not Chris Bachalo's. Blah.

Kid Icarus

02-10-2009, 11:30 AM

Looks good to me. Though I happen to like Grummett's work. At least it's not Chris Bachalo's. Blah.

Why would you need to compare creators right there?
When has that ever been productive to an argument?
It is ignorant to defend one artist by saying that another isnt good

MartinRedmond

02-10-2009, 11:43 AM

Tom Grummet is good. However, just for the sakes of whinning, my dream teams that won't happen: :>

Travel Foreman
JPLeon3 / Sienkiewicz
Joe Bennett / Dan Green
Rick Leonardi / same guy inking him on Vigilante

Pixie_Solanas

02-10-2009, 11:46 AM

Pixie_Solanas

02-10-2009, 11:46 AM

MartinRedmond

02-10-2009, 11:54 AM

I don't think so, I think Travel Foreman is your #1 favorite.

Pixie_Solanas

02-10-2009, 11:58 AM

I don't think so, I think Travel Foreman is your #1 favorite.

lulz. i'm still trying to warm up to him on Iron Fist. I miss Aja.

prince_nightcrawler

02-10-2009, 12:26 PM

Omg, exciting, yay, I love it.

Yay Jean! Yay Sabretooth! Yay Storm! Yay Storm's boots!

BBeeryan

02-10-2009, 12:50 PM

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7429/xmforev01covcolv2yq2.jpg

I think this is goin to effing rock. But I have two questions.
Why do we have two lions on the team?:rolleyes: :confused:
And why are Ororo, Jean, & Marie wearing f**k me boots?! :evilsmile:

Pixie_Solanas

02-10-2009, 12:52 PM

And why are Ororo, Jean, & Marie wearing f**k me boots?! :evilsmile:

Because that should be required superheroine attire, before the uniform-practicality fascists took hold and gave us fashion-conscious readers only flat boots to scorn and mock. :(

Joe Franklin

02-10-2009, 12:55 PM

Why do we have two lions on the team?:rolleyes: :confused:

That's Ape Beast, not Cat Beast.

Sabretooth is the only lion on the team.

BBeeryan

02-10-2009, 12:59 PM

Because that should be required superheroine attire, before the uniform-practicality fascists took hold and gave us fashion-conscious readers only flat boots to scorn and mock. :(
U better stop, before they come after you.
That's Ape Beast, not Cat Beast.

Sabretooth is the only lion on the team.

Thanx for clearing that up. One lion, no tiger, no bear, i got it.

MartinRedmond

02-10-2009, 12:59 PM

Pixie_Solanas

02-10-2009, 01:03 PM

U better stop, before they come after you.

.

They come wielding flaming Crocs. I yield none.

Joe Franklin

02-10-2009, 01:09 PM

I don't think that Grummett is the right artist for this project. To follow Jim Lee, you need a little more flash.

Grummett is no Jim Lee, but he's got a little flash. Here is proof.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/maavng18.jpg

http://www.majorspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/marvel/MAAvng13.jpg

Pixie_Solanas

02-10-2009, 01:10 PM

The higher the heel, the better the heroine.

Excellent. I christen that the Boot Corollary.

BBeeryan

02-10-2009, 01:19 PM

The higher the heel, the better the heroine.
You are awesome. I like your philosophy
They come wielding flaming Crocs. I yield none.
Your cool in my book. I jus hope the feminists don't get you.
Grummett is no Jim Lee, but he's got a little flash. Here is proof.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/maavng18.jpg

http://www.majorspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/marvel/MAAvng13.jpg
And they jus had to go and put the two best X-men on one awesome team. I love it!!!

creaky

02-10-2009, 01:23 PM

Grummett is no Jim Lee, but he's got a little flash. Here is proof.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/maavng18.jpg]

I dunno. Logan looks like he needs to pee.

ExodusCloak

02-10-2009, 02:05 PM

He didn't design those costumes, he most likely gave Grummett a loose description on how he wanted the characters to look, and then left the rest up to Grummett.

I should also point out that CC DOES NOT always tell every artist he works with on how he wants the characters to look. It depends on who the artist is.

That was my train of thought. Also the bird flying past Sage's privates and all the butt shots kind of implied that he had a lot of detailed input and thought in it.

From his interview in the Phoenix Special CC's scripts were like 6 page double spaced 12 font essays...

Prodigy55

02-10-2009, 03:31 PM

I actually like that art :O

ZNOP

02-10-2009, 03:33 PM

Who is the giant redhead?

SkinFromBone

02-10-2009, 03:35 PM

And why are Ororo, Jean, & Marie wearing f**k me boots?! :evilsmile:

Why...not wear f me boots? :confused:

ZNOP

02-10-2009, 03:58 PM

Why do we have two lions on the team?:rolleyes: :confused:

Me thinks you are seeing things. That is the classic Blue Beast. And although Sabertooth has looked better that is what he normally should look like (or close to it.)

And why are Ororo, Jean, & Marie wearing f**k me boots?! :evilsmile:

Both women have worn those boots with there costumes for years. Where have you been. Well actually Phoenix/Jean Grey's boots used to be part of her "one piece" costume. That changed in UX-Men when Jean Grey/Phoenix accepted that she was indeed phoenix.

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/uncanny-x-men/354-3.jpg

This is not the cover:biggrin:

But the story I am talking about shows Jean putting on the boots somewhere around that time. I think IIRC the issue was UX-Men

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/uncanny-x-men/357-1.jpg

Tilt

02-10-2009, 03:59 PM

The more I look at Jean in the artwork the more I like that costume in those colors, it will be great to have a new/old version of her running around.

Home made ectoplasm

02-10-2009, 04:03 PM

Why is everyone saying Sabertooth is on the team?

ZNOP

02-10-2009, 04:32 PM

The more I look at Jean in the artwork the more I like that costume in those colors, it will be great to have a new/old version of her running around.

Give it time:smile: Jean has died and returned three times. Madelyne twice, and Rachel at least once. Marvel can't help themselves when it comes to the "Grey" genome that "costume" will rise again. Be it on Jean, Madelyne, or Rachel. Hmmmm. Now, that I think about it Madelyne has not worn the Phoenix outfit yet... At least I don't think so.

Someone help me out here.

Shaid O Gray

02-10-2009, 05:07 PM

Why is everyone saying Sabertooth is on the team?

Probably because he's in that promo shot with all the X-characters flying/jumping around. And there are no other villains, and no Wolverine in sight. So....is CC swapping Logan for Creed?

Home made ectoplasm

02-10-2009, 05:09 PM

Probably because he's in that promo shot with all the X-characters flying/jumping around. And there are no other villains, and no Wolverine in sight. So....is CC swapping Logan for Creed?

It looks like they're chasing after him to me.

sneggz

02-10-2009, 05:25 PM

Why is everyone saying Sabertooth is on the team?
I thought that was Wild Child on the promo art?

Shaid O Gray

02-10-2009, 05:35 PM

It looks like they're chasing after him to me.

Hm I kinda doubt it. Rogue isn't behind Creed. Look at the bit of glove, it's in front of his arm, meaning she's sorta flying next to him and she's not even looking at him. Is everyone chasing her and Creed then?

And Kitty isn't chasing annything, she's just posing, and Gambit's direction and attention seem to be somewhere else entirely. It strikes me more as a generic 'here's the team' shot than a 'look, everyone is chasing Creed for no apparent reason' shot.

Hey, I could be wrong.

I thought that was Wild Child on the promo art?

Huh, good point. He looks a little buff for Wild Child, but you may be right.

david r

02-10-2009, 06:29 PM

PAD is the man, is what I'm saying. He knows continuity backwards and forwards. Both his own, and other creators. And he's good enough to acknowledge it. And, PAD was being somewhat kind, since there were so many old mutants that already existed by this point. Sure there was Apocalypse, Selene, and Namor. But there was also...

Wolverine, of course.

Mystique and Sabretooth were revealed at that point to have been adults during World War II. As well as Destiny, for that matter.

Gideon, of the Externals, had debuted before this continuity existed. He's hundreds of years old.

Toro, the Human Torch's sidekick.

Crimson Commando, Super Sabre, and Stonewall were all World War II veterans.

Shadow King was thought to be at least Xavier's age, if not older.

So who is Claremont trying to undo, that came into existence, right after he left the X-books? A few ancient mutants who came to be from 1991-1993:

Exodus.
Candra and the rest of the Externals.

Had I to venture a guess, by undoing Exodus, there's a whole different plan for the Acolytes that will come to pass. Undoing the Externals changes a lot of the plans from X-Force, as well as a lot of Gambit's backstory in New Orleans with Candra.

And as far as why there aren't more ancient mutants? Either Sinister killed them for research (or some other wanker like the High Evolutionary) or on the off chance that the Neo were moving behind the scenes to kill off the other species

WBE, Chris Claremont said old mutants. As in mutants in their 70s, 80s and 90s. How many mutants can you name who appear to be in their 70s, 80s and 90s? Virtually none. We have mostly mutants who are in their teens to 40s-50s. The only mutant I can think who has appeared beyond 70 years old is Destiny. I think that's what Claremont meant, and it's a provocative question.

Novaya Havoc

02-10-2009, 06:30 PM

darknessatnoon

02-10-2009, 06:31 PM

Why is everyone saying Sabertooth is on the team?

I still think it's Wolverine.

Remember when he lost the adamantium, and his nose fell off? This is the same character design. Maybe Chris Claremont always intended for him to lose it much earlier than Nicezia got around to it.

chastmastr

02-10-2009, 07:14 PM

And why are Ororo, Jean, & Marie wearing f**k me boots?! :evilsmile:
Because they can fly, and thus don't need practical footwear. :cool:

David
do I get a No-Prize?

chastmastr

02-10-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote from assistant X-Men Forever editor Jordan White.

"In X-MEN FOREVER, Chris can continue shaping those characters again, as though he never left. Everything revealed since X-MEN #3 is fair game again. James Howlett? Never heard of him. Our Wolverine is called Logan."

Oh God, God, yes, yes, thank you.

This makes me happier and happier. :smile:

AcesX1X

02-10-2009, 07:37 PM

i just died a little inside.

while reading my collected issues of x-treme x-men, i realized how much of a snore beast was.

even CC could not make him interesting.

and yet, here he is....on that stunning cover by tom g.

it's too much for me to take. i see that i'm going to have to purchase some more white-out if i'm to enjoy this series now.

Home made ectoplasm

02-10-2009, 07:39 PM

CmX

02-10-2009, 07:41 PM

I wonder how many issues in until Psylocke and Sage join the team oh and Valeria Richards or some FF-related character.

timbox

02-10-2009, 07:42 PM

Sage doesn't leave undercover status until after Beast dies, so she won't be around to save him this time.

Joe Franklin

02-10-2009, 07:57 PM

Why is everyone saying Sabertooth is on the team?

Because he is.:cool:

Come To Deathstrike

02-10-2009, 08:33 PM

Sean Whitmore

02-10-2009, 08:42 PM

Claremont said old mutants. As in mutants in their 70s, 80s and 90s. How many mutants can you name who appear to be in their 70s, 80s and 90s? Virtually none.

Except for all the ones mentioned in the post that you quoted.

SEAN

Assemble

02-10-2009, 08:43 PM

I wonder how many issues in until Psylocke and Sage join the team oh and Valeria Richards or some FF-related character.

I sure hope not. Honestly... Claremont dissapointed the heck out of me with that on New Exiles... and the male Mystique... but this is promising.

Keep it simple Chris. Please.

Joe Franklin

02-10-2009, 09:11 PM

I wonder how many issues in until Psylocke and Sage join the team oh and Valeria Richards or some FF-related character.

If this happens, then I will quit buying it, even if Sabretooth is on the team. I want my monthly dose of Sabretooth, but not at the expense of Sage, or any other lame pet characters of Claremont's.

Frank

02-10-2009, 09:12 PM

I just learned about this. I cannot believe this is happening.

Chris Claremont starting a book back to X-Men 1-3! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Back when the X-Men were the X-Men. Fkin A!

Joe Franklin

02-10-2009, 09:21 PM

I just learned about this. I cannot believe this is happening.

Chris Claremont starting a book back to X-Men 1-3! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Back when the X-Men were the X-Men. Fkin A!

Before there were 100's of X-Men books with 100's of different writers butchering them.

It has potential, if Claremont goes back to the basics. But I, along with others, have their doubts.:frown:

Frank

02-10-2009, 09:25 PM

Before there were 100's of X-Men books with 100's of different writers butchering them.

It has potential, if Claremont goes back to the basics. But I, along with others, have their doubts.:frown:

Yea before the dark eras of butchering. :biggrin:

I have my doubts too but it will be my last chance of ever reading the X-Men. So gotta keep the faith.

I don't know about Grummet doing this, though. I would have prefered a David Finch, Deodato, etc..somebody with an edge like Lee/Silvestri had in 91.

metalgorgomon

02-10-2009, 09:25 PM

If this happens, then I will quit buying it, even if Sabretooth is on the team. I want my monthly dose of Sabretooth, but not at the expense of Sage, or any other lame pet characters of Claremont's.

There won't be Sage in this book. She's still Tessa then..

Blade X

02-10-2009, 09:31 PM

Why is everyone saying Sabertooth is on the team?

I still think it's that blonde haired feral kid (who's name I can't recall for the life of me) from the 2nd EXCALIBUR series.

Joe Franklin

02-10-2009, 09:37 PM

I still think it's that blonde haired feral kid (who's name I can't recall for the life of me) from the 2nd EXCALIBUR series.

Kylun? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kylun

Blade X

02-10-2009, 09:53 PM

Kylun? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kylun

No, not Kylun. I'm talking about that teenager from the Genoshian EXCALIBUR series. He hung out with that teleporting girl, Hub.

ZNOP

02-10-2009, 10:39 PM

No, not Kylun. I'm talking about that teenager from the Genoshian EXCALIBUR series. He hung out with that teleporting girl, Hub.

You wouldn't be referring to wildchild?

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=81&page=6

"Hub" In Excalibur?

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/glossary/showentry.asp?fldAuto=1940
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hub_(comics)#Powers_and_abilities

worstblogever

02-11-2009, 02:13 AM

WBE, Chris Claremont said old mutants. As in mutants in their 70s, 80s and 90s. How many mutants can you name who appear to be in their 70s, 80s and 90s? Virtually none. We have mostly mutants who are in their teens to 40s-50s. The only mutant I can think who has appeared beyond 70 years old is Destiny. I think that's what Claremont meant, and it's a provocative question.

Again, Mystique, Destiny, Sabretooth, Wolverine, Xavier, Magneto, Apocalypse, Selene, Gideon, Shadow King...

and come to think of it, "old" appearing?

Winston J. Kranpuff (he was 90). Plus Centennial, from Alpha Flight. All had been established by the time X-Men (vol. 2) #3 came out.

Of that list, I'd say Kranpuff, Destiny, and Centennial "appear" old.

The real reason there are no "old" mutants, though, is because young people were the ones reading comics, and were less likely to identify with "old" characters. That's the answer to Claremont's real mystery as to why there weren't more old mutants.