Literary Snob Cafe: Magical Realism

[Shisho]

Magical Realism: A genre in itself, or simply fantasy by people who speak Spanish?

Discuss. Feel free to be pretentious and drop all your $5 words on us. :wink:

[JamesRitcheyIII]

Magical Realism: A genre in itself, or simply fantasy by people who speak Spanish?

Discuss. Feel free to be pretentious and drop all your $5 words on us. :wink:

I love Jorge Luis Borges and Garcia-Marquez and I don't speak a lick of Spaniardese, but I've considered myself a Magic Realist/Post-Expressionist in writing for some time. A list of non-Hispanic authors who have aspects of fantasy, but are hardcore realists regarding characterization, and having atmosphere/plot reflective of internal conflict--i.e., not of the D&D/Unicorns and Fairies/crappy variety of fantasist:
Alain Robbe-Grillet
Franz Kafka
Joseph Conrad
James Joyce
Hermann Nesse
William S. Burroughs
JG Ballard
Philip K. Dick (emphatically)
John Brunner (sometimes)
Thomas Disch
Michael Moorcock (at his best)
Roger Zelazny (at times)
Lucius Shepard

I've heard great things of Rudy Rucker, but have never had the opportunity...

[jesse_custer]

Yeah, it's pretty much fantasy.

[Gothos]

It doesn't have to be Spanish. I recently read Rushdie's 1980 MIDNIGHT'S CHILDREN, which does the magic realism thing against an East Indian backdrop.

The important thing in magic realism for me is that it doesn't center on the fantastic things, but regards them as incidental to the main thrust of the story, which as in "reality literature" is about the people and their interactions.

[Paul McEnery]

I've heard great things of Rudy Rucker, but have never had the opportunity...

The book that most suits your sensibility is Saucer Wisdom.
The book you should read to understand the nature of the universe is The Lifebox, The Seashell and the Soul.
The entry level fun book to see Rudy fail to write the next Philip Pullman :evilsmile: but still write something well entertaining is Frek and the Elixir.

Though come to think of it, you might just prefer to begin at the beginning and do White Light.

[4PointOh]

My professors taught Toni Morrison as magical realism, specifically Song of Solomon and Beloved.

[Paul McEnery]

Magic Realism: A literary term devised by the publishing world to teach the creative imagination to know its place.

[Solaris]

It doesn't have to be Spanish. I recently read Rushdie's 1980 MIDNIGHT'S CHILDREN, which does the magic realism thing against an East Indian backdrop.

The important thing in magic realism for me is that it doesn't center on the fantastic things, but regards them as incidental to the main thrust of the story, which as in "reality literature" is about the people and their interactions.



Then Mary Renault's "The King Must Die" would probably qualify. She tells the story of Theseus from a realist perspective... but with little bits of psychic ability thrown in.

It's a very good book.

[4PointOh]

Anyone read Autobiography of Red by Anne Carson?

[darkhanamaru]

I always thought of magical realism as realism where the protagonists are just more attuned to seeing through the veil, a little bit more sensitive....something more respected in other cultures outside the US so it has been falsely identified as intrinsically foreign when it doesn't have to be.

[Michael P]

Neil Gaiman doesn't speak Spanish. At least, not that I'm aware of.

As for magical realism, it's a breed of fantasy, but there's nothing wrong with that. Fantasy's good for the soul.

[Royal]

What?

Like Jacob's Ladder or Picnic At Hanging Rock?

[Ghost]

Never heard of it before.

*wikis*

...Yeah, sounds like fantasy. Or a sub-genre thereof, anyway.

Heck, Terry Pratchett says it's fantasy, and there's no way in hell I'm going to argue with Terry Patchett.

[Spiffy]

Of course the trick to Garcia-Marquez is that its actually NOT all that realistic!

Putting aside the dreamy stuff like Garcia-Marquez, if we are just working off the definition that its about people operating in what seems to be a version of the real world, but fantastic things happen, there's a lot of contemporary crap, what I've heard called "Urban Fantasy" (who came up with that lame term anyway?), which borders on this territory, but of course most of it is REALLY badly written. Most of it is just frustrating and lame.

For the more sophisticated stuff, I'd recommend Kazuo Ishiguro.

[Tracer Bullet]

Well, let me first digestify the subject a bit. What is magical realism? For those not in the know, it is the transportational juggstapositional placement that adds a certain parfois de vivre and rich colorcocity to a work of literature, or as the French say, le lit. But I digress. You see, my friend, magical realism can be appreciated best when it's underkermit is oblivious to the reader. It operates at a higher level than most can reach. I'll also conquer with the fellow who stated that it does not have to be linked to any Spanish-speaking culture. It is a johnra that has esisted before Marquez popularized it. Unfortunately not many can exapolate the complexities of the issue. *puffs pipe with smugness*

[Ghost]

there's a lot of contemporary crap, what I've heard called "Urban Fantasy" (who came up with that lame term anyway?),

Hey now. I actually write that contemporary crap. :tongue:

I think it's really just a handy way of saying "fantasy that takes place in a modern realistic urban setting." Fantasy these days is kind of an umbrella term covering a very wide spectrum of different styles, and Urban and Contemporary Fantasy are some one of them.


which borders on this territory, but of course most of it is REALLY badly written. Most of it is just frustrating and lame.

I'd say this is kind of a problem for fantasy in general, though. ^^

[Paul McEnery]

Anyone read Autobiography of Red by Anne Carson?

Bits of it. I've got Plainwater on the go right now. And at one point I had a lovely embossed poster thingy she was giving away at a reading of a bit of reworked Sappho, but I passed it on to a friend of mine who likes literary curios more than I do.

But she's dead good. I'm told some of the later work isn't as concentrated, and maybe she's publishing too much too soon to keep up with demand, but I don't know about that.

[Tobias March]

Magical Realism: A genre in itself, or simply fantasy by people who speak Spanish?

Discuss. Feel free to be pretentious and drop all your $5 words on us. :wink:

I totally agree. Good fantasy that literary snobs are embarassed to enjoy.

Blindness by Jose Saramago is one of my favourite novels. Friend of mine had to study it as part of his Portuguese class. Lucky fecker.

[Sally Sensational]

Well, seeing as I'm teaching Like Water for Chocolate (Esquivel) and House the Spirits (Allende) back to back right now . . . (IOW Shisho's creepy for the timeliness of this thread)

I've explained Magical Realism to my students as fiction that features realistic characters in realistic situations but the progression of those situations includes unrealistic, magical occurrences.

The question I have posed to them is to ferret out what it is about the Spanish culture in particular that would give rise to the writing of this style of novel. I've noticed that there is often a certain sort of Romance - at least from the perspective of Western readers - to the cultures which produce the "best" novels of Magical Realism as well as a depth of spiritual life, be it Catholic or Pagan.

As for Urban Fantasy - it's only crap if it's badly written. Charles DeLint pioneered the genre and he's got some pretty great stuff out. Most early Urban Fantasy used early myth, religion, and native belief-borne supernatural elements as the fantastic additions to the storyline. DeLint, for example, uses Native American (continent-wide) and early Western European mythic elements (those the settlers of North America would have brought with them) to inform his novels.

Thus, early Urban Fantasy - the fiction that spawned the naming of a new genre - contained very specific fantastic elements. Novels such as the Harry Dresden series would not have been included in the genre.

Consideration of the genre's roots would also confine Urban Fantasy to only that fiction which has as its setting someplace contemporary, real, and urban, not just any random city the author made up. Set a story in London as it is NOW, and it's Urban Fantasy. Set a story in London as you posit it will be in 200 years and then it's just fantasy - or more likely than that, science fiction.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

The book that most suits your sensibility is Saucer Wisdom.
The book you should read to understand the nature of the universe is The Lifebox, The Seashell and the Soul.
The entry level fun book to see Rudy fail to write the next Philip Pullman :evilsmile: but still write something well entertaining is Frek and the Elixir.

Though come to think of it, you might just prefer to begin at the beginning and do White Light.

I'm pretty OCD that way, so yeah--I'll likely start with White Light, or whatever I find first in a bookstore.

Looking him up, it explains a lot of why my friend Mark recommended Spacetime Donuts all those many moons ago. PKD haunts me too, and I dream I'm Franz Kafka working in a big room at the Assicurazioni Generali.

I'll have to add Tim Powers to my previous list, speakin' of PKD associations...

[Spiffy]

Hey now. I actually write that contemporary crap. :tongue:

I think it's really just a handy way of saying "fantasy that takes place in a modern realistic urban setting." Fantasy these days is kind of an umbrella term covering a very wide spectrum of different styles, and Urban and Contemporary Fantasy are some one of them.



I'd say this is kind of a problem for fantasy in general, though. ^^
I did say most of it. Not all.

It just seems to be a genre where a lot of laziness is tolerated. It's certainly not the only one though.

I've read some good examples of it (Charles DeLint is indeed pretty good). It's just almost blotted out by a ton of crap.

[Paul McEnery]

I'm pretty OCD that way, so yeah--I'll likely start with White Light, or whatever I find first in a bookstore.

Looking him up, it explains a lot of why my friend Mark recommended Spacetime Donuts all those many moons ago. PKD haunts me too, and I dream I'm Franz Kafka working in a big room at the Assicurazioni Generali.

I'll have to add Tim Powers to my previous list, speakin' of PKD associations...

Of course, there's another entrance point, which is the recent short story collection. Also recommended.

[Paul McEnery]

I did say most of it. Not all.

It just seems to be a genre where a lot of laziness is tolerated. It's certainly not the only one though.

I've read some good examples of it (Charles DeLint is indeed pretty good). It's just almost blotted out by a ton of crap.

Well, 90% of everything is crap, ain't it.

So, here's a question: Why is Charlie Stross's Merchant Princes series fantasy rather than SF or magic realism?

[Spiffy]

Well, 90% of everything is crap, ain't it.

So, here's a question: Why is Charlie Stross's Merchant Princes series fantasy rather than SF or magic realism?
Geez. I gave up halfway through the second book. So you tell me! :tongue:

[Infra-Man]

So are Haruki Murakami and Karen Russell lumped into magical realism or are they considered literary fiction writers who work with fantastical ideas? Never understood who joins that club.

It almost seems like magical realism is like a special kind of phrase for literary fantasy of a specific geographic region.

[Corrina]

Like mostly every other genre name now, magical realism is a marketing term.

It's there to say "this story is similar to Marquez and may please the same reader."

The SF label goes on Zelazny because that's where he started and that's where people are used to finding him.

It's all marketing. The literary establishment may think 'magical realism' and being in the fiction section has some sort of cachet but it's really all about publishers using the label to find the readers where they think they are.

I think it's interesting when a genre book jumps out because it's been marketed outside the genre. Like Da Vinci Code. Nothing new there to most readers of SF or horror, the whole Knights Templar stuff. But it made it into the hands of mainstream fiction readers, people who usually pick up Grisham, and so was a big hit.

[Infra-Man]

I'll also toss out this...

Two of my favorite writers are Italo Calvino and Donald Barthelme. Neither get lumped into magical realism though there is a lot of great, fantastical stuff going on in their work. Most people classify those authors as postmodernists, which, along with surrealism, seems to be the the classification for other literary fiction writers who do fantastical work but do not hail from a Spanish-speaking country.

At what point does magic realism become postmodernism and vice versa? Is it really just a matter of geography at some point?

[Calvin Government]

Magical realism is just fantasy for people who don't want to admit that they dig some fantasy. Durnit.

That might be unfair, but I after 4 years of English Lit as an undergrad, I despise English Lit people, and blame them for everything wrong in life. Literally. Everything.

[PatrickG]

I think of "Fantasy" as quasi-medieval or taking place in a fantasy world of some kind. Society is different in Fantasy. Technology is different.

I always included Ray Bradbury primarily under the umbrella of "Magical Realism", given that the bulk of his work seems to take place in 20th century California, Illinois and Dublin and much of it involves little or nothing which is unreal except in the way it is expressed.

There is a latin vibe that runs through some of his work like "The Wonderful Ice Cream Suit".

But a perfect example of magical realism IMHO can be found in "Farewell Summer". The only thing supernatural in the whole book is a talking erection that lasts for a page or so. The characters adopt a mythological way of viewing their world in places but it's largely a realistic setting where the prose relates the plot through the lens of poetic truth rather than reporting.

Northern Exposure was a great example of Magical Realism on television IMHO. Ally McBeal was as well and Buffy the Vampire Slayer, especially early on, could veer away from horror/fantasy towards Magical Realism.

As I understand Magical Realism, it's largely realism with huge gaping poetic metaphors made strangely literal.

Rob Morrow's Joel Fleischman on Northern Exposure wanted to go back to New York. He gave up on that and embraced shamanism, went on a mythic quest for a fabled city and discovered New York, inexplicably, in the Alaskan wilderness. At the end, he sends a post card from NYC with a note that reads, "New York is a state of mind."

It dives in and out of metaphor and literal truth.

Tom Robbins is Magical Realism, IMHO. So's Philip K. Dick. Chuck Palahniuk fits the bill too.

The difference, IMHO, is that fantasy inhabits a fantasy world. Something like the Twilight Zone creates a somewhat realistic fantasy world and borders on magical realism.

But magical realism is less about fantasy in any capacity and more about extreme metaphor.

Fantasy: A boy who owns a robot. The robot may be a metaphor for a real type of person who is robot-like but the robot is, literally, a robot -- made of circuits or gears.

"Standard Literature": A boy with a robot-like OCD friend with an acknowledgment that his friend is robot-like in the text and perhaps running metaphors and similes which allude to the friend's robotic qualities but the friend is literally flesh and blood.

Magical Realism: A boy with a robot-like OCD friend who gets cut and bleeds oil but is NOT a robot, likely with no explanation offered as to how the friend bleeds oil except that it enhances his robot-like qualities poetically. The friend is literally flesh and blood and literally, inexplicably bleeds motor oil when cut.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

Hey Patrick--I keep forgetting you exist, here--you're like Schrodinger's Cat.

I'd go a little farther with the third variation of approaches--it could take on a variety of harrowing twists and turns. Dwayne Hoover as a boy might've happened upon the idee fixe that a friend of his was a robot, which later led to him mass murder many of the population of Midland City. That whole feeling of metaphor literalized, and a big blur between sensation and logic.

PKD once described something that happened to him that he tried to instill in his writing. He went into his bathroom, in a house he'd lived in for quite a while, and reached for the string of a lightbulb--the old kind, that clicked when you pull it. Phil had never had that in his bathroom--nor any bathroom in any house, growing up--always a wall switch, and he had no idea why he'd reach for the string.

There's a 'mindfuck' aspect to it, like a Sufism or a Zen Koan--a character being forced to confront the nature of reality by it being seriously fucked with, on a visceral level. All of my favorite writers do it, to some degree.

[Paul McEnery]

Geez. I gave up halfway through the second book. So you tell me! :tongue:

My first stab at that thought is that fantasy is about some kind of wish-fulfillment image. In this case, the protagonist gets to be a medieval princess. The joke is that she's also a business journalist who's making a packet. Hmm, met any princesses like that, Charlie? So it's a fantasy with a bitter twist that teaches us about real world economics -- but the fantasy element of getting to switch worlds with a medieval setting is the dominant bit.

[Michael P]

I think of "Fantasy" as quasi-medieval or taking place in a fantasy world of some kind. Society is different in Fantasy. Technology is different.

That's just epic or heroic fantasy, which is a subset of fantasy. Fantasy is no more than that subset of fiction which posits a world as it cannot exist. (This is distinct from science fiction, which is that subset of fiction which posits a world as it might exist, given some scientific development. And both are of course sides of the cube of speculative fiction, which is that subset of fiction which posits a world sharply distinct from the one that does exist.)

Magical realism is fantasy, just subtler than most.



It dives in and out of metaphor and literal truth.

All fantasy does this. Hell, all fiction does this (or at least all good fiction). And most of it spends more time in the world of metaphor than the world of literal truth.

In any case, as Corrina pointed out, the modern conception of genre is largely marketing bollocks. Genre is a zoological classification system for art. No more, no less.

[Red Jack]

I love Jorge Luis Borges and Garcia-Marquez and I don't speak a lick of Spaniardese, but I've considered myself a Magic Realist/Post-Expressionist in writing for some time. A list of non-Hispanic authors who have aspects of fantasy, but are hardcore realists regarding characterization, and having atmosphere/plot reflective of internal conflict--i.e., not of the D&D/Unicorns and Fairies/crappy variety of fantasist:
Alain Robbe-Grillet
Franz Kafka
Joseph Conrad
James Joyce
Hermann Nesse
William S. Burroughs
JG Ballard
Philip K. Dick (emphatically)
John Brunner (sometimes)
Thomas Disch
Michael Moorcock (at his best)
Roger Zelazny (at times)
Lucius Shepard

I've heard great things of Rudy Rucker, but have never had the opportunity...

I think you could toss in Gaiman too.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

Well; the only time I read anything that was called "magical realism" was in class in college and that was a story where somebody got killed or something and the blood managed to go from the body all the way down the hill to the doorstep of his families home or something.

So if thats any indication, magical realism are stories that feature instances that are "borderline" impossible.

Extremely outlandish but hypothetically possible in some way type deal.

Also; in an earlier post, it mentions a boy having a robot as fantasy but considering the rate technology is advancing, I'm not sure that will be enough to count as "fantasy" after a certain point.

[Flâneur]

Magical Realism: A genre in itself, or simply fantasy by people who speak Spanish?

Discuss. Feel free to be pretentious and drop all your $5 words on us. :wink:

I think it's not quite correct to see it as a genre (or even sub-genre), it's more of a stylistic approach rather than a category in of itself. While it's obviously not as all encompassing as the term 'postmodern', I liken it to that in the sense that 'postmodern literature' is not exactly a genre. You could argue that there's a movement within the fantasy genre that's begun to rely on magical realism but I don't think describing it as a genre in of itself is really that useful or precise.

I'm also not really sure it's apt to say it's a marketing term as few, if any, mainstream book shops will have a 'Magical Realism' section. In most cases, people who read books that have elements of magical realism in it won't identify it (or have it explicitly identified to them) as such so it lacks power in the marketing area. If you were going to recognise it as a catch word, I think it'd be more of a social than a commercial one that literature, cultural studies and creative writing students/alumni bandy about to affirm their literary 'cred' and taste.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

All fantasy does this. Hell, all fiction does this (or at least all good fiction). And most of it spends more time in the world of metaphor than the world of literal truth.

Most fantasy is magic and fairies, and I wouldn't be caught dead with what I consider a fantasy book.


Yes--why let pesky facts get in the way of reducing something we don't fully grasp into the most irreducible, digestible components possible? Doesn't matter if the term 'Magic Realism' is a recognized literary movement--a passion, really (for some of us), the term first coined by a German literary critic in the 1920's. While I'm sure he was providing 'spin' of sorts, literary criticism had attained a certain level of erudition of it's own even way back then, and over a century before--like on Carlisle's Essays on Burns, much the way folk music became classical--but it's all 'marketing jargon'.

I was pleased by the scant reviews to my first Green Lama comic, by the few who 'got it' of the handful of critics that bothered--but I was even more pleased with the one idiot who couldn't make head nor tail of it (once I calmed down). While he's giving glowing reviews to Skrullcrapfest at Marvel on the same page, he's providing vagueries about Lama being 'Personal Work (RE: Fantagraphics)' and how I'm 'not quite there, yet'--with no specifics. While I've certainly a way to go in developing my skills in regard to pacing, every writer I respect gave glowing opinions, at the 'stream of consciousness' approach, and the characterization. A very talented man named Ron Fortier called it the best writing on Femforce characters, ever. Other guy couldn't categorize it as 'superhero', 'fantasy', or 'science fiction', even though it has all of that throughout--all he could come up with is 'Personal Work'.

Point bein': Kurt Vonnegut didn't do the same thing Robert Heinlein did, neither does he fit in with Hemingway, anymore than Tom Robbins does--but these wise guys would categorize Vonnegut, Hemmingway and Robbins as mainstream. Moorcock, at his most pandering, transcended everything Robert Lynn Asprin did, because he thinks differently than Asprin--while at his best, he's comparable to many of the 'Magic Realists', and just as sideways. Read 'Breakfast in the Ruins'. 'Magic Realism' is extremely 'playful with the nature of reality',right-brained material, and almost always coincides with approaches I love, that don't fit into neat, little categories.

Misguided, groundless rationalism can reduce anything to complete shit, I swear...It's a real thing, kids--whether you see it or not.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

I think you could toss in Gaiman too.

Steve Gerber, as well--with deeper highs and lows. Morrison's Animal Man and Doom Patrol fall in there, too.

I'm still adding to that list!

[Royal]

*itches head*

Tommy?

[Infra-Man]

This thread needs a pimpin'

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[JamesRitcheyIII]

*itches head*

Tommy?
I'd say on two levels--everything directed by Ken Russell, and every form of musical theater going back to classical opera. Eli Stone has the same thing going. Kenneth Anger and David Lynch both qualify, as well.

I'd kill to write the libretto for The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by early Genesis (the last album with Peter Gabriel), which makes both Tommy and Quadrophenia look boring by comparison--about a puerto rican street kid/graffiti artist who goes 'down the rabbit hole'.

One of my saddest disappointments, ever, was in the mid-'nineties--my friend Scott Hampton had had to turn down a job adapting 'The Three Penny Opera' by Bertolt Brecht into comic form--but recommended ME--knowing my past of tryin' to be some musical cross between Bryan Ferry and David Bowie. Alas, I was 'off the grid'--and didn't find out about it till two years later, when I ran into Scott at a convention...

[Ghost]

Consideration of the genre's roots would also confine Urban Fantasy to only that fiction which has as its setting someplace contemporary, real, and urban, not just any random city the author made up.

I'll be damned, that would rule out my story from the Urban Fantasy definition. Not only did I invent the city in question, but also the whole damn country it's in. ^^;

Thinking about it, that would make it, what? Contemporary Ruritanian Fantasy? oO


Northern Exposure was a great example of Magical Realism on television IMHO. Ally McBeal was as well and Buffy the Vampire Slayer, especially early on, could veer away from horror/fantasy towards Magical Realism.

As I understand Magical Realism, it's largely realism with huge gaping poetic metaphors made strangely literal.

Twin Peaks?


That's just epic or heroic fantasy, which is a subset of fantasy. Fantasy is no more than that subset of fiction which posits a world as it cannot exist. (This is distinct from science fiction, which is that subset of fiction which posits a world as it might exist, given some scientific development. And both are of course sides of the cube of speculative fiction, which is that subset of fiction which posits a world sharply distinct from the one that does exist.)

Magical realism is fantasy, just subtler than most.

All fantasy does this. Hell, all fiction does this (or at least all good fiction). And most of it spends more time in the world of metaphor than the world of literal truth.

In any case, as Corrina pointed out, the modern conception of genre is largely marketing bollocks. Genre is a zoological classification system for art. No more, no less.

Yeah, what he said! ^^;

[Gothos]

I think it's not quite correct to see it as a genre (or even sub-genre), it's more of a stylistic approach rather than a category in of itself. While it's obviously not as all encompassing as the term 'postmodern', I liken it to that in the sense that 'postmodern literature' is not exactly a genre. You could argue that there's a movement within the fantasy genre that's begun to rely on magical realism but I don't think describing it as a genre in of itself is really that useful or precise.

I'm also not really sure it's apt to say it's a marketing term as few, if any, mainstream book shops will have a 'Magical Realism' section. In most cases, people who read books that have elements of magical realism in it won't identify it (or have it explicitly identified to them) as such so it lacks power in the marketing area. If you were going to recognise it as a catch word, I think it'd be more of a social than a commercial one that literature, cultural studies and creative writing students/alumni bandy about to affirm their literary 'cred' and taste.


I agree magical realism isn't a genre or even a subgenre, the way one could say that "sword and sorcery" was a subgenre belonging to "heroic fantasy."

"Approach" is one good term; also "mode" or even "vibe." Film noir might be comparable, since a film noir may have the exact same content as another film that just doesn't have the same stylistic vibe.

[Infra-Man]

Twin Peaks?

In general it seems like Twin Peaks is considered surrealism rather than magic realism.


There's actually a newer term concerning some of the new lit kids on the block that may have crossover with magic realism: hysterical realism. Coined by New Republic book critic James Wood, this classification includes authors such as Dave Eggers, Jonathan Safran Foer, the late David Foster Wallace, and Zadie Smith, with heavy hitters like Don DeLillo and Thomas Pynchon considered the originators of this grouping.

According to the wikipedia entry on hysterical realism, it is "typified by a strong contrast between elaborately absurd prose, plotting, or characterization and careful detailed investigations of real specific social phenomena." Basically, it's lots of wacky conceits thrown out and dealt with wearing a straight face, often to the detriment of the characters.