Rucka and Williams III on Batwoman in 'Tec

[Seraku]

http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album_view.php?gid=847&page=5

all images after are about 'Tec Batwoman, the previous images are art from Flash: Rebirth

[Mia]

What book is Greg writing?

[Cayman]

The art is gorgeous.

It'll be interesting to see how the title sells with a different character as the lead though.

[Seraku]

What book is Greg writing?it's Detective

he's taking over after BftC, the issue number is right after the Gaiman story

[AlistairCrane]

Oh goodie, Batwoman's taking over Detective Comics.

[celticguy]

what the hell does Tec stand for?

[Cayman]

what the hell does Tec stand for?

Short for Detective.

[celticguy]

Short for Detective.

in what language?

[AlistairCrane]

in what language?

English. Tec has been its nickname for decades. Where have you been??

[Flâneur]

in what language?
Japanese.

And I'm so excited for this now that the object of my hatred has been removed and replaced by someone awesome.

[AlistairCrane]

Japanese.

And I'm so excited for this now that the object of my hatred has been removed and replaced by someone awesome.

Huh? Who?

....

[Flâneur]

Huh? Who?

....
Shuffling out Bruce Wayne and replacing him with the awesome Ms. Kane.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Meh.

And they gave Katy Kane some work timberland-tread boots. They might as well have just pink-ed up Bruce's boots and passed them on.

I always thought the high-heels she wore in 52 were delightfully anachronistic in the current "costume practicality" milieu.

Now she's just like the rest of the boys. Ho-hum, zzzz.

[frostedone]

I love the art style! The red really "pops" out. I love the grey with one color art style.

It reminds me of the Detective Comics storyline "Batman Evolution".

[kometman]

You guys know Rucka wrote Planet Hulk right?

Planet Batman would be so cool :tongue:

[Vidocq]

I was hoping for Dini to comeback after BFTC, but Rucka is coming back to a Batbook so yay for that. Guess this means that Batwoman and Batman will finally meet, or have they done it before.

[Chad Nevett]

You guys know Rucka wrote Planet Hulk right?

Planet Batman would be so cool :tongue:
That was Greg Pak, not Greg Rucka.

[ultraaman]

That was Greg Pak, not Greg Rucka.

HAHAHAHAHA!!

you beat me to it. when i read that post i lost it.

i have to admit, it didn't occur to me how post-anti-feminist it is for Batwoman to wear high heels but now I want them back.

so now we've got Rucka on Detective Comics and World of Krypton...and is he still on Action Comics? damn him.

[celticguy]

You guys know Rucka wrote Planet Hulk right?

Planet Batman would be so cool :tongue:

yeah but then he would fight Bane and we would have 30 pages of how he did not beat him.

[Sizzle]

The coloring was fantastic. I just don't care for Williams III's art though.

[HaroldAllnut]

And there I was, wondering if the Bat-books would be readable after Battle for the Cowl. I'm pretty pumped for this, and I'm definitely gonna pick up the first arc, unless it somehow turns out to be a phenomenally horrible first issue. And, judging from this preview, that won't happen.

I wonder if the Question's gonna show up at all.

[celticguy]

And there I was, wondering if the Bat-books would be readable after Battle for the Cowl. I'm pretty pumped for this, and I'm definitely gonna pick up the first arc, unless it somehow turns out to be a phenomenally horrible first issue. And, judging from this preview, that won't happen.

I wonder if the Question's gonna show up at all.

wonder what her headquarters will be. Maybe she could buy the old clock tower that BoP used.

[the goddamn batman]

Well, if it's J.H. Williams III on the art, I'll buy it.

[Retro315]

JH Williams is rapidly becoming my hero.

Anyone else think Batwoman comes off as just a tad creepy? I don't mean that in the shadowy corners creepy, rather the personality.

And better question ...

Who the hell is it in the Batman costume, because I don't think it's Bruce ...

(This does explain Batwoman's presence on that Battle for the Cowl mystery picture)

I've been on the Nightwing band-wagon for a while so I imagine this is the "reunion" between Dick and Batwoman following 52's Christmas issue where they met last.

[spidervenom]

Definitely picking this up, Williams has some of the best layouts in comics.

[d newton]

So, let me get this straight:
Rucka > Detective.
Dini > Batman (?).
Morrison > ?.

[spidervenom]

So, let me get this straight:
Rucka > Detective.
Dini > Batman (?).
Morrison > Robin and Batman.

Here you go.

[HaroldAllnut]

wonder what her headquarters will be. Maybe she could buy the old clock tower that BoP used.

That would be awesome.

So, let me get this straight:
Rucka > Detective.
Dini > Batman (?).
Morrison > ?.

Wait... That's the line-up post-Battle for the Cowl? Man... I'm super-intrigued. And Morrison is probably gonna be doing Batman & Robin or something to that effect.

[Captain Jim]

Can't say this really surprises me. For one thing, Didio said a while back that Dini's next project would also be a Batman project. That sure made it sound like he wouldn't immediately be coming back to Tec. Also, they seem to want to take similar approaches with both Superman and Batman this next year. Since Supes is going to be absent from both his long-running titles for the next twelve months, I'm not surprised they're doing the same thing with Detective--and won't be surprised if it turns out something similar happens in Batman.

Btw, at the DC Nation panel today, someone asked how long Rucka would be on Detective and he said 12-14 months (after which, I presume, Batman will return to the book).

LITG had a rumor many months ago that the Robin and Nightwing books would be cancelled and replaced with "Batman and Robin" and Jason Todd/ Red Robin titles. Well, he was right about the cancellations. My theory is that Morrison will be returning to a new "Batman and Robin" title in June, featuring Dick and Daimon. And perhaps "Red Robin" (either Tim or Jason) will be featured in the Batman book.

In other words, I don't think you're going to see Dini on Batman.

[Alexx1]

I don't know if I want to read about Batwoman 12-14 issues. Since it's Rucka I'll give this a chance. I don't personally see the need for the character. DC has a great staple of characters they need to invest in and develope further. Plus I've always felt she was mix of Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) and Huntress all rolled up in one anyway. I would have preferred to see Rucka focus on a character like Huntress that he writes the hell out of but oh well. Like I said, since it is Rucka (and Gotham city), I'll give it a shot. Hopefully he'll give us some Helena in Tec.

[the goddamn batman]

I don't know if I want to read about Batwoman 12-14 issues.

Has anyone said that Rucka's writing Tec about Batwoman for the duration of his run?

Plus I've always felt she was mix of Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) and Huntress all rolled up in one anyway.

Neither of which pre date Batwoman.

[Captain Jim]

I don't know if I want to read about Batwoman 12-14 issues. Since it's Rucka I'll give this a chance. I don't personally see the need for the character. DC has a great staple of characters they need to invest in and develope further. Plus I've always felt she was mix of Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) and Huntress all rolled up in one anyway. I would have preferred to see Rucka focus on a character like Huntress that he writes the hell out of but oh well. Like I said, since it is Rucka (and Gotham city), I'll give it a shot. Hopefully he'll give us some Helena in Tec.

I have similar misgivings. Rucka has written some of my favorite Batman stories, but I don't care a bit about this new Batwoman. I don't know. I guess I've got between now and June to decide.

[Captain Jim]

Has anyone said that Rucka's writing Tec about Batwoman for the duration of his run?

I think that was the pretty clear implication.

Neither of which pre date Batwoman.

Both of which pre date this version of Batwoman.

[Alexx1]

Neither of which pre date Batwoman.

What? This one they certainly do...

ETA: What Captain Jim said.

[Captain Jim]

Btw, at the DC Nation panel today, someone asked how long Rucka would be on Detective and he said 12-14 months (after which, I presume, Batman will return to the book).

I know we're talking about Detective here but, interestingly, 14 more issues of Batman take us to #700. I think I agree with the people who've theorized that Bruce will return in #700.

[the goddamn batman]

I think that was the pretty clear implication.

Oh really? Did I miss that, then? I just got too excited over J.H. Williams on a Bat-title.

Can't say that I've very interested in a Batwoman title... but if Williams is doing the whole run, i'll buy it.

Both of which pre date this version of Batwoman.

I dunno... aren't Kate Kane and Kathy Kane pretty much the same thing? I fail to see any substantial difference.

[Liberty Belle Fan]

Art = Epically Awesome.

I have never been so excited for Detective Comics than I am now. I saw the preview art via iPhone at work and I was totally blown away. Rucka made a comment at the NYCC in the DC Panel saying he'd be around for 12-14 issues. This can not come out soon enough!

[Alexx1]

I have similar misgivings. Rucka has written some of my favorite Batman stories, but I don't care a bit about this new Batwoman. I don't know. I guess I've got between now and June to decide.

Rucka has also written some of my favorite Batman stories and Gotham stories so that's why I'm going to give it a try. I've always felt Rucka makes Gotham City an intriguing character all to itself and it's really his niche. I still hope we'll get a plethara of Bat family characters and supporting characters during his run as oppose to just Batwoman. I've always felt that was one of Rucka's strong suits in his Batman stories, the supporting characters.

[Captain Jim]

aren't Kate Kane and Kathy Kane pretty much the same thing? I fail to see any substantial difference.

Well, time will tell, but at the moment, I fail to see any substantial similarity. I mean, other than the fact that they're both women, and both have "bat" in their name and red in their costumes.

[the goddamn batman]

I don't know, I'm not at all familiar with the original batwoman... and barely familiar with the current one, so, like, what's actually different about them?

Other than one being gay and the other being introduced to dispel gay rumors... because I just assumed they were pretty much the same thing.

[Alexx1]

This new verison (granted it's been a limited version we've seen thus far), is way different then the previous incarnation of the character who was bit more light hearted and not so high strung, imo. This new Kate is ultra aggressive, uber violent, and came on the scene with a sense of entitlement ALL of which scream Huntress to me. Along with that, if Babs was still a crime fighting hero (in the field and not bound to a wheelchair) this Batwoman is what she'd look like.

[Corrina]

The Silver Age Kathy Kane was an heiress with a crush on Batman who dressed up to fight crime to impress him. Bette Kane (now Flamebird) was her niece, who had a similar crush on Robin. They were used back in the day to show that our men were manly men who had a good reason for wearing tight costumes, including one that had pixie boots.

The second version of Kathy Kane, we'll call it Denny O'Neil's version just because, was a circus owner who'd given up being Batwoman to do take care of the circus. She was murdered by a hypnotized Bronze Tiger. Mostly, she was written like an old school broad, like Katherine Hepburn or Lauren Bacall.

I haven't seen much of Kate Kane but it certainly wasn't Kathy Kane's method that she used on that preview. Kathy was much mellower and sarcastic. Didn't this new Batwoman basically moonlight as a socialite? That wasn't really the most recent version of Kathy Kane at all--you'd have to go way back to the 60s Batman, pre-O'Neil/Adams to find anything similar and then it's just "rich woman."

ETA: Barbara blew up the clocktower at the end of War Games. So no HQ there, unless it's part of Superman's happy ending. Though I don't think Babs would be too happy about some random Bat-person hanging out at her clocktower.

[the goddamn batman]

You could say the same things about Batman, though...

Original Batman used a gun... then was much more light hearted... blah blah... it's still the same character.

So how is Kathy different from Kate in any way that doesn't also apply to Batman?

[Captain Jim]

As I indicated, we haven't really seen enough of the new BW to know much about her. The original BW was a circus acrobat; that's how she acquired her skills. No idea how the new version was equipped to be a crime fighter, but I don't think it was that. The original version rarely fought alone; typically she was at Batman's side. Her primary motivation for crime fighting was to be close to Batman, whom she was in love with. All of this is decidedly different than the new character.

I don't think they are any more the same than Babs Gordon and Cassie Cain.

[JumpingJupiter]

I like Rucka, the art looks slick.

[Alexx1]

I don't think they are any more the same than Babs Gordon and Cassie Cain.

Or Helena Wayne and Helena Bertinelli.

[the goddamn batman]

As I indicated, we haven't really seen enough of the new BW to know much about her. The original BW was a circus acrobat; that's how she acquired her skills. No idea how the new version was equipped to be a crime fighter, but I don't think it was that. The original version rarely fought alone; typically she was at Batman's side. Her primary motivation for crime fighting was to be close to Batman, whom she was in love with. All of this is decidedly different than the new character.

I don't think they are any more the same than Babs Gordon and Cassie Cain.

Okay. Like I said, my familiarity with both characters is rather limited... I just sort of assumed one was a modern update of the other.

But I'm still not entirely sure that isn't the case. I mean, Jason Todd was a Dick Grayson clone at first. Retcons are powerful things.

[earl]

I'm sure it will probably be a pretty good comic, but if they would have just done Detective with Bruce Wayne as Batman with JH Williams and Greg Rucka, they probably would sell 100000+ copies an issue, but with Batwoman, I don't think so.

If they actually get JH Williams to do 14 issues of Batwoman and it doesn't catch on, it won't catch on.

[AlistairCrane]

I will actually go out of my way to NOT buy Tec simply because I hate Batwoman.

[Flâneur]

I will actually go out of my way to NOT buy Tec simply because I hate Batwoman.
why? .........

[d newton]

For one thing, Didio said a while back that Dini's next project would also be a Batman project. That sure made it sound like he wouldn't immediately be coming back to Tec.

Btw, at the DC Nation panel today, someone asked how long Rucka would be on Detective and he said 12-14 months (after which, I presume, Batman will return to the book). In other words, I don't think you're going to see Dini on Batman.

LITG had a rumor many months ago that the Robin and Nightwing books would be cancelled and replaced with "Batman and Robin" and Jason Todd/ Red Robin titles. Well, he was right about the cancellations. My theory is that Morrison will be returning to a new "Batman and Robin" title in June, featuring Dick and Daimon. And perhaps "Red Robin" (either Tim or Jason) will be featured in the Batman book.
Based on the above 3 statements, we've got:
Morrison - Batman or Batman/Robin.
Rucka - Detective.
Dini - Red Robin then Detective.

[nepenthes]

I don't like what we've seen of Batwoman so far AT ALL and I think alot of work needs to be done on the character. and Rucka's a legend but his stuff is not the kinda thing I've been into lately. I'm hoping this will all change in June. I think it will. I haven't read the preview yet because I don;t feel like it but it sounds cool from all the comments.

What a line up...they compliment each other so well
Morrison
Dini
Rucka

I'm excited

[Red_Knight]

LITG had a rumor many months ago that the Robin and Nightwing books would be cancelled and replaced with "Batman and Robin" and Jason Todd/ Red Robin titles. Well, he was right about the cancellations. My theory is that Morrison will be returning to a new "Batman and Robin" title in June, featuring Dick and Daimon. And perhaps "Red Robin" (either Tim or Jason) will be featured in the Batman book.

In other words, I don't think you're going to see Dini on Batman.

*prays for a Jason Todd title

I'd love to see that line-up! I wonder, though... if Rucka is building 'Tec around Batwoman, and Morrison (who we know is returning in June) is penning the Batman and Robin title featuring the new dynamic duo, then what happens to the Batman book? I can't see DC replacing such a long-running. esteemed title, so will it remain on hiatus until Bruce returns, or will it also feature the post-BFTC Batman, with Batman & Robin serving as a secondary title in the same way that Tec did until now? (Boy, my head is spinning... But if you read through this, I swear it makes sense) I honestly can't see a book that flat-out says "Batman" on the cover featuring any Robin by himself...

I heard a rumor somewhere that one bat book might actually focus on Bruce and his struggles to get back to present day Gotham... I'm not sure what to make of that particular idea, but it doesn't sound half bad...

[Doc Goblin]

Good. This confirms I'll be reading at least one title post-BftC. Greg Rucka's a great writer. I'll be there for whatever he's writing. The fact that it'll be Detective Comics just makes things all the better. Finally, something will be done with Batwoman. Plus the possibilities that Rucka will occasionally work in Question and Huntress appearances.

Now I want confirmation on what Dini is going to be doing. If it's Batman, great. I'm there for that. (Just no more Hush please).That'll make two post-NtfC Batbooks I'll be reading.

Just give me a Jason Todd book with Winick now. And I swear I won't even care who Batman ends up being. Won't matter. I'll be satisfied.

[Ben Reilly#6]

I'm not all that thrilled about Batwoman being featured in Detective Comics, but if it's a chance for her to finally get some decent fleshing out, I'll be a lot more willing to pick it up.

[eggie]

The art looks phenomenal!!!! Wow!! I will definitely be picking this up.

[celticguy]

I thought the clocktower might have been destroyed but then again batwoman is loaded so she could restore it.

anyways jut a thought

[Duy]

I'm sure it will probably be a pretty good comic, but if they would have just done Detective with Bruce Wayne as Batman with JH Williams and Greg Rucka, they probably would sell 100000+ copies an issue, but with Batwoman, I don't think so.

If they actually get JH Williams to do 14 issues of Batwoman and it doesn't catch on, it won't catch on.

It's gonna be a good comic just 'cause of the creative team involved - there's almost no way you can go wrong. So if it doesn't catch on after a year, say, it never will.

[AJM]

I've never been interested in Batwoman but that creative team's enough to convince me.

As for the rest of the titles, what if the Batman & Robin title is an entirely new comic that begins with a #1? That means the Batman monthly would be free to explore what's actually happening to Bruce Wayne as he travels through time or whatever the hell he's supposed to be doing. I think it'd be good to see these adventures in the original series and then no-one can complain that there's a Bruce-free Batman comic on the shelves. It seems odd to me that they'd re-title it Batman & Robin just for these new stories with Dick and Damian (probably).

So maybe Dini could be writing Batman? I know that would certainly please a lot of fans. Imagine Nguyen drawing tales of the Batman through the ages - that would be amazing!

[Chiroptera]

Well, I'm sorry to see so many people are disappointed by this turn of events.
We already knew Rucka wanted to do something with Batwoman, he'd said repeatedly that eh had not forgotten about her and still planned to do something with her; apparently, this is the opportunity.

Personally, given his capability with character development, I'm very excited to read his run. This is a saving grace for me, I dropped all my Batman books off my pull list after Bruce's "death" of Bruce -- well teleportation to a universe where he lives through hellish life after hellish life, or whatever Darkseids omega sanction does -- I dropped all my Batman books off my pull list.
I've been buying them off the shelf now if it seems worth reading but so far nothing actually has, I don't give a flying rat's behind about Grayson taking over the mantle, and I despise Damion so there's not much for me to take interest in thus far as far as the Batman comics go these days.

But Rucka AND Williams III? Combine that with finally getting to see him give Batwoman some much needed character focus and I'm sold. I'll put this one back on my pull list once Rucka starts up his run.

[AlistairCrane]

why? .........

She's a lame, unnecessary character. Catwoman and Batgirl already fill her role. She's extraneous.

[AJM]

CONFIRMED! Batman & Robin is a new, separate title. Dini & Nguyen on Batman a very real possibility...

[Alexx1]

Per Rucka from BFTC panel:

"Gotham Central" characters will appear in Rucka's "Detective Comics," "because I can't keep away from them," the writer said. He added that the first four issues would be one arc, followed by a three-issue origin of Batwoman. "I think there's a legitimate question as to why we should care about this character, other than that she's a Bat," Rucka added, "and after this arc we will see that it's because she's kick-ass cool."



It will be nice to see Rucka infuse some GC into Tec. And at least he acknowledges that fans lack of reception or embrace to the character is legitimate.

I still wish he would have put all his effort, energy, and excitement into Huntress though. He could do wonders for her.

[the goddamn batman]

From the Batman panel: Apparently J.H. Williams III is on Tec for at least 12 issues. So, I'll be on Tec for at least 12 issues as well!!!

And yeah, I guess Batwoman is going to be the lead character... which, Williams could draw Little Lulu and I'd buy it... so whatever.

[Kid Seven]

I am way excited about this. Love the way that JH Williams III's stuff looks so far.

[Libaax]

She's a lame, unnecessary character. Catwoman and Batgirl already fill her role. She's extraneous.

Well said !

She is a walking gimmick "the hot lesbian".

Now she has taken over my favorite DC superhero book in Tec.

I do hope Dini does Robin or anything. I will follow him anywhere while i wait for Tec being back to normal.

[CaptainCanada]

Big Rucka fan, looking for someplace to read his work since Checkmate ended, and I'm glad he's finally getting the space to tell his Batwoman story. The character's been ridiculously hamstrung while DC equivocated more than Hamlet over whether or not to publish it.

[Mundungus]

I'm behind this. Personally, I think that putting Batwoman as the lead of Detective Comics is a smart move. It allows DC and the readers to give her an ongoing feel and see if it sticks. She can always gain momentum and end up in her own eponymous title.

I thought the preview was great and I'm interested to see more.

[Quinnhop]

I'm behind this. Personally, I think that putting Batwoman as the lead of Detective Comics is a smart move. It allows DC and the readers to give her an ongoing feel and see if it sticks. She can always gain momentum and end up in her own eponymous title.

I thought the preview was great and I'm interested to see more.

Seconded.

I feel that's what Detective should be. A testing ground for new creative teams and other Bat-family characters. To see if they deserve an ongoing.

And there would be no delays -- ever! -- because each team would be working on their own storyline while the others' is in print.

[nepenthes]

She's a lame, unnecessary character. Catwoman and Batgirl already fill her role. She's extraneous.

I think Huntress is closer to the Batwoman concept than either Catwoman or Batgirl

but agreed, this is a big part of the reason I don't like Batwoman either. It's also a reason I'm looking forward to this book though. I just hope there's a little fun in it.

Rucka often seems to be forgetting the fun

[Duy]

I havent been able to get through an issue of 'Tec since Dustin Nguyen took over art duties. I know he's well-loved around here, but I can't actually stand his art. For JH Williams III, my second favorite penciller of all time, to take over, just makes me smile.

[Libaax]

Seconded.

I feel that's what Detective should be. A testing ground for new creative teams and other Bat-family characters. To see if they deserve an ongoing.

And there would be no delays -- ever! -- because each team would be working on their own storyline while the others' is in print.

No thats would be Gotham Knights kind of series.


Detective Comics is THE Batman series in the old school vien of Detective oriented Batman.

Its was my only Batman comic.

They should have given Batwoman her own comic. Cause giving her Tec wont prove anything. It well sell cause its a legendary Batman comic not because of her.

Thats pointless. Why not do her own mini or ongoing see if they can make her work.

I dont dislike her that much as i sound but i just wanted my only real Batman stories in Detective comics.

[the goddamn batman]

Batwoman her own comic. Cause giving her Tec wont prove anything. It well sell cause its a legendary Batman comic not because of her.

Thats pointless. Why not do her own mini or ongoing see if they can make her work.

You kinda answer your own question there.

[Libaax]

You kinda answer your own question there.


Yes of course i wasnt born yesterday its easy seeing why they will try her out in a Batman comic and not her own. I see the company's POV.

I was talking to that fan that think Detective should be used to tell stories of batman family comics.

[carabas]

They're doing something similar with Action comics.

It's a good idea, putting a bunch of new(ish) characters into auto-selling books where they have a shot at being read by an audience with a phobia for new characters. It certtainly beats dropping them in short-lived, critically lauded but quickly canceled ongoings.

Detective Comivs predates the creation of Batman anyway.

[Libaax]

They're doing something similar with Action comics.

It's a good idea, putting a bunch of new(ish) characters into auto-selling books where they have a shot at being read by an audience with a phobia for new characters. It certtainly beats dropping them in short-lived, critically lauded but quickly canceled ongoings.

Detective Comivs predates the creation of Batman anyway.


There is nothing new about Batwoman.

Dont compare her to actual new characters that fail like cause phobia for new characters like Jamie Reyes in BB.

[Mat001]

They're doing something similar with Action comics.

It's a good idea, putting a bunch of new(ish) characters into auto-selling books where they have a shot at being read by an audience with a phobia for new characters. It certtainly beats dropping them in short-lived, critically lauded but quickly canceled ongoings.

A smart idea as it is. I mean it did work for Steel, Superboy and Azreal in the early 90's. A good place to build an audience and then launch a solo series.

Detective Comivs predates the creation of Batman anyway.

Yep.

[DonC]

Well, now we know what happened to Rucka's and Williams' Batwoman series.

I'll give this a shot, but the character didn't do a whole lot for me in her past, limited appearances.

[Captain Jim]

Per Rucka from BFTC panel:

"I think there's a legitimate question as to why we should care about this character, other than that she's a Bat," Rucka added, "and after this arc we will see that it's because she's kick-ass cool."

I'm glad Greg recognizes that there's a problem here and that he might have an uphill battle with this character.

Having said that, I'll probably give this a shot. Good writer, good artist, how bad can it be?

[kaelikins]

I like Batwoman, and I love me some Rucka... so I'm looking forward to this. However, I must say... are the nipple protruberances in her costume REALLY necessary? I mean, come on boys. Surely you can use your imagination and spare the rest of us the visual? ;)

[GDB]

I like Batwoman, and I love me some Rucka... so I'm looking forward to this. However, I must say... are the nipple protruberances in her costume REALLY necessary? I mean, come on boys. Surely you can use your imagination and spare the rest of us the visual? ;)

Considering how sexual she seems to be acting towards that perp, I'm guessing it's intentional.

Also, I didn't notice it the first time I looked through the preview, but Batman does show up in Detective. He's the one she's saying "Wondered when you'd show yourself" to.

[nepenthes]

Its was my only Batman comic.
...
i just wanted my only real Batman stories in Detective comics.

would you like a box of tissues?

[DonC]

Good writer, good artist, how bad can it be?


http://adrianjames.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/final_crisis_1.jpg

[the goddamn batman]

Ha ha ha ha!

[Flâneur]

She's a lame, unnecessary character. Catwoman and Batgirl already fill her role. She's extraneous.

How is she similar to them, apart from being female? She's not a thief, not a femme fatale love interest for Batman, has an entirely different visual and I don't see any humongous similarities in personality to Catwoman. She's not some tortured pubescent fighting savant like Cassandra Cain and I haven't seen the vaguest hint that she's going to be like Oracle.

[JumpingJupiter]

Is anyone else disappointed in the artists decision to emphasize Batwoman's areolas? I think it diminishes the project's serious appeal.

[Captain Jim]

http://adrianjames.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/final_crisis_1.jpg

Yeah, but unlike Rucka, I never cared for Morrison.

[the goddamn batman]

Is anyone else disappointed in the artists decision to emphasize Batwoman's areolas? I think it diminishes the project's serious appeal.

He's not emphasizing them. They're there, but he's stressed no level of importance in regards to them. J.H. has a strong attention to detail, and uses more realistic portrayals of human beings than a lot of artist.

And... like, really? It's a Bat-person comic. How seriously are you going to take it? How seriously can you take it? And and and, you're complaining about nipples in a comic book? Have you read comics before?

[GDB]

Is anyone else disappointed in the artists decision to emphasize Batwoman's areolas? I think it diminishes the project's serious appeal.

As I said earlier, she seems to be using her sex appeal as a weapon, so it isn't too bad.

[Alexx1]

Some women nipples are more taut than others! Seriously to me the art is in good taste. It's not over the top. But to each his/her own...Everyone's got their own taste.

[chipsnopotatoes]

As I said earlier, she seems to be using her sex appeal as a weapon, so it isn't too bad.

sex appeal? i don't know. she actually looks pretty scary with the kabuki makeup.

[Duy]

I don't understand how people can call Batwoman lame or unnecessary when no substantial work has been done to flesh out her character at all.

[GDB]

Did you not notice the part where she was sweet talking him, saying she wouldn't let the bad guys hurt him, as she drew him in close to her, and asked him to whisper into her ear?

Now imagine if Batman tried doing that to the same perp, and think about how different the result would be.

[paulski]

Just read about this news a few minutes ago.

My initial reaction? "Crap, there's another book I'll have to pick up...". :frown:

After thinking about it a bit more? "Cool, there's another good book I can pick up!". :cool:

[Flâneur]

Did you not notice the part where she was sweet talking him, saying she wouldn't let the bad guys hurt him, as she drew him in close to her, and asked him to whisper into her ear?

Now imagine if Batman tried doing that to the same perp, and think about how different the result would be.

That's as much about differing notions about what's appropriate for each gender, to be honest, as anything else. There's a lot of things women do as part of the daily routine that people would get their panties in a twist over if men did it. Make up being the most obvious example.

[GDB]

That's as much about differing notions about what's appropriate for each gender, to be honest, as anything else. There's a lot of things women do as part of the daily routine that people would get their panties in a twist over if men did it. Make up being the most obvious example.

Obviously, but the fact that she can (and does) use this method means having perky nipples isn't necessarily some marketing ploy to get horny comic readers to buy it. There's at least some in-story reason that makes sense for it.

[AlistairCrane]

I don't understand how people can call Batwoman lame or unnecessary when no substantial work has been done to flesh out her character at all.

Then you also shouldn't be able to understand how people can call her cool or necessary when no substantial work has been done to flesh out her character.

[the goddamn batman]

Then you also shouldn't be able to understand how people can call her cool or necessary when no substantial work has been done to flesh out her character.

Has anyone said that?

[Mia]

Well said !

She is a walking gimmick "the hot lesbian".


Well glad someone said it. It's probably why we have Batwoman taking over 'Tec as opposed to Huntress. Greg seems to have a fondness for lesbian characters. Whether it's shoe horning Maggie Sawyer into 'Tec, Carrie in White Out, or making Montoya a lesbian in GCPD.

I would not be surprised if Montoya becomes a constant stapple in 'Tec. Like many here I don't care about Batwoman so I think I'll drop the book for a year or so. I also can't help but feel that she's nothing but an authors' 'pet character' being rammed down the throats of the fans. Huntress and Batgirl certainly deserve more prominence than Batwoman.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't understand how people can call Batwoman lame or unnecessary when no substantial work has been done to flesh out her character at all.

Yeah, why would people dislike a character with no depth or characterization at all? She's got a gimmick, why isn't that enough?

[Alexx1]

Well glad someone said it. It's probably why we have Batwoman taking over 'Tec as opposed to Huntress.

Huntress and Batgirl certainly deserve more prominence than Batwoman.

It would have been nice to have Rucka writing this story for Huntress. I mean those preview pages screamed Huntress to me.

[HaroldAllnut]

I think that people are writing Batwoman off too quickly. She's only appeared in 52 and The Question: Books of Blood miniseries (which is pretty underrated). I have faith that Rucka will bring her to prominence as a character.

Also, regarding Rucka's supposed "obsession" with lesbians... I don't think the man's obsessed. Frankly, I'm glad he, one of the more prominent writers in the comic business, is introducing non-heterosexual characters into comics.

After all, you wouldn't hear people saying the things they say about Batwoman if she were black or Hispanic or Asian as opposed to a lesbian, would you?

They're doing something similar with Action comics.

It's a good idea, putting a bunch of new(ish) characters into auto-selling books where they have a shot at being read by an audience with a phobia for new characters. It certtainly beats dropping them in short-lived, critically lauded but quickly canceled ongoings.

Detective Comivs predates the creation of Batman anyway.

I love the idea of transforming Action Comics and Detective Comics into books with a wider spectrum, sort of bringing them back to their original intent. There's nothing wrong with Superman showing up in Action Comics or Batman in Detective Comics, but since they already have solo books of their own, I don't see why it would hurt to branch out.

[nepenthes]

Then you also shouldn't be able to understand how people can call her cool or necessary when no substantial work has been done to flesh out her character.

Yeah, why would people dislike a character with no depth or characterization at all? She's got a gimmick, why isn't that enough?

let's see if I've understood this logic correctly:

Batwoman, up until this point, is lame and unnecessary, because she has no unique identity of her own

therefore

she will always be lame and unnecessary, despite what any writer tries to do with her in a 12 issue devoted series

is that right?

[The Cool Thatguy]

let's see if I've understood this logic correctly:

Batwoman, up until this point, is lame and unnecessary, because she has no unique identity of her own

therefore

she will always be lame and unnecessary, despite what any writer tries to do with her in a 12 issue devoted series

is that right?

Show me exactly where I said 'always will be', please.

She's a gimmick now and maybe she'll be fleshed out later sure. I certainly feel as if they've had enough time to provide some hints, yet haven't. She may grow as a character, I freely admit.

But until that time, she's a gimmick, a shallow character being pushed at the expense of better and more established characters. And until she brings something to the table that no other character brings, she'll just be another gimmick.

[Mia]

I think that people are writing Batwoman off too quickly. She's only appeared in 52 and The Question: Books of Blood miniseries (which is pretty underrated). I have faith that Rucka will bring her to prominence as a character.

Also, regarding Rucka's supposed "obsession" with lesbians... I don't think the man's obsessed. Frankly, I'm glad he, one of the more prominent writers in the comic business, is introducing non-heterosexual characters into comics.

After all, you wouldn't hear people saying the things they say about Batwoman if she were black or Hispanic or Asian as opposed to a lesbian, would you?



Yes they would. If it was the same circumstances as mentioned above.


Right now I'm reading X-Force. And although X-23 is a favourite character of the two writers. They have been careful to not shove her down the throats of the fans by making her front and center in the book--even though-- no especially since she is a rellatively new character.


Like it has been mentioned before Huntress and Batgirl have been around longer and deserve more prominence than Batwoman. Having Batwoman featured in a story arc is one thing. But to have her dominate a book for a year or more is is ridiculous when she is a new character and really has had no part of the Batverse. It smacks of conrivance on the part of the author and I find that a huge turn off.

[Captain Jim]

Like it has been mentioned before Huntress and Batgirl have been around longer and deserve more prominence than Batwoman.

Batgirl's getting an ongoing title; I'd say that is more prominence.

[Duy]

Yeah, why would people dislike a character with no depth or characterization at all? She's got a gimmick, why isn't that enough?

I don't see why people would dislike her since it's not really established that she has no depth or characterization. No time has been devoted to her. Why dislike rather than indifference?

Personally, I think she's got a cool look. Beyond that, I don't really know much else. If Rucka and Williams spend time on her and flesh out her character, we should judge her then.

It's one thing to say a character has no depth or characterization when there's actually been time devoted to said character; it's another thing to judge it when no time has really been given to the character.

[the goddamn batman]

I'm just excited to have Williams on a 12 issue run. Who he's drawing is pretty irrelevant to me, personally. I've never cared for Huntress much. She's the one that's always felt rather unnecessary to me.

[Mia]

Batgirl's getting an ongoing title; I'd say that is more prominence.

Nice to hear. But I still maintain that she deserves to be in the flag ship title more than Batwoman.

[the goddamn batman]

Why? I don't get that. Neither of them are Batman... you prefer one over the other, but deserving? Really? I don't see it.

[Flâneur]

Obviously, but the fact that she can (and does) use this method means having perky nipples isn't necessarily some marketing ploy to get horny comic readers to buy it. There's at least some in-story reason that makes sense for it.
Oh, I agree. While I think most heroines are overdone with too much cheesecake and cleavage, I don't see that much (I didn't notice it until someone pointed it out) that isn't conventional for what I imagine a female cape would wear.

I just think your Bruce Wayne example wasn't quite apt.
Well glad someone said it. It's probably why we have Batwoman taking over 'Tec as opposed to Huntress. Greg seems to have a fondness for lesbian characters. Whether it's shoe horning Maggie Sawyer into 'Tec, Carrie in White Out, or making Montoya a lesbian in GCPD.

I would not be surprised if Montoya becomes a constant stapple in 'Tec. Like many here I don't care about Batwoman so I think I'll drop the book for a year or so. I also can't help but feel that she's nothing but an authors' 'pet character' being rammed down the throats of the fans. Huntress and Batgirl certainly deserve more prominence than Batwoman.
Wait, a star writer writing three other lesbians in the course of his career is a bad thing? Seriously? I acknowledge that Batwoman may have been promoted via her sexuality but that's overshooting it. The fact that the books are more diverse is a good thing, not something to complain about.

I also fail to see how she's a pet character when he wasn't originally intended to write about her and when he hasn't had her do anything prominent at all.

She's a gimmick now and maybe she'll be fleshed out later sure. I certainly feel as if they've had enough time to provide some hints, yet haven't. She may grow as a character, I freely admit.

But until that time, she's a gimmick, a shallow character being pushed at the expense of better and more established characters. And until she brings something to the table that no other character brings, she'll just be another gimmick.
In that same system of logic, all new characters should be dropped for older ones. If a new character with promise is fleshed out then they won't be shallow, she will bring something to the table, but if you dismiss her as shallow before seeing anything then there's little point for anyone to introduce any new characters at all.
Yes they would. If it was the same circumstances as mentioned above.


Right now I'm reading X-Force. And although X-23 is a favourite character of the two writers. They have been careful to not shove her down the throats of the fans by making her front and center in the book--even though-- no especially since she is a rellatively new character.


Like it has been mentioned before Huntress and Batgirl have been around longer and deserve more prominence than Batwoman. Having Batwoman featured in a story arc is one thing. But to have her dominate a book for a year or more is is ridiculous when she is a new character and really has had no part of the Batverse. It smacks of conrivance on the part of the author and I find that a huge turn off.
If she were a new character in new series, she'd still have these issues but now they're just in Detective which is without its star for a year and every other member of the bat family seems like they're being catered to. There's even extra bat books to make up the one title that Batman, if he were currently around, would lose. I don't see what the problem is? It's not like she's being shoved down your throat ... you're just getting a Batwoman & Gotham Central book for a year.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't see why people would dislike her since it's not really established that she has no depth or characterization. No time has been devoted to her. Why dislike rather than indifference?

Personally, I think she's got a cool look. Beyond that, I don't really know much else. If Rucka and Williams spend time on her and flesh out her character, we should judge her then.

It's one thing to say a character has no depth or characterization when there's actually been time devoted to said character; it's another thing to judge it when no time has really been given to the character.

No time? She's shown up in 52, Countdown and in the Crime Bible mini series. That's time enough to establish something in terms of characterization beyond angry and hint at an origin. They've not done that.

In that same system of logic, all new characters should be dropped for older ones. If a new character with promise is fleshed out then they won't be shallow, she will bring something to the table, but if you dismiss her as shallow before seeing anything then there's little point for anyone to introduce any new characters at all.

See above. They've had time. It's not been used. Hell, even the Justice League writer admitted he had little idea what to do with her.

[Duy]

No time? She's shown up in 52, Countdown and in the Crime Bible mini series. That's time enough to establish something in terms of characterization beyond angry and hint at an origin. They've not done that.



See above. They've had time. It's not been used. Hell, even the Justice League writer admitted he had little idea what to do with her.
They didn't do that because she wasn't at all in any way the focus character in any of those series. In at least two of those, she was just acting as Renee Montoya's supporting cast member. So no, even though she's had screen time, there hasn't been time devoted to her.

Or, in other words, has she appeared enough to have had time devoted to her? Yes. Has the time actually been devoted to her? No.

I think her story in the Holiday special a couple of years ago was pretty cool and a good piece of character work.

[The Cool Thatguy]

They didn't do that because she wasn't at all in any way the focus character in any of those series. In at least two of those, she was just acting as Renee Montoya's supporting cast member. So no, even though she's had screen time, there hasn't been time devoted to her.

Or, in other words, has she appeared enough to have had time devoted to her? Yes. Has the time actually been devoted to her? No.

I think her story in the Holiday special a couple of years ago was pretty cool and a good piece of character work.

She's had enough appearances for them to drop some clues, establish something about her beyond her sexual preference. And that ain't happened. So yeah, gimmick. One that's displaced better, proven characters.

[d newton]

They didn't do that because she wasn't at all in any way the focus character in any of those series. In at least two of those, she was just acting as Renee Montoya's supporting cast member. So no, even though she's had screen time, there hasn't been time devoted to her.

Or, in other words, has she appeared enough to have had time devoted to her? Yes. Has the time actually been devoted to her? No.
Agreed. :biggrin:

She's had enough appearances for them to drop some clues, establish something about her beyond her sexual preference. And that ain't happened. So yeah, gimmick. One that's displaced better, proven characters.
I could list half a dozen characters in the last 5 years that were gimmicks other than Kate Kane.

[Duy]

She's had enough appearances for them to drop some clues, establish something about her beyond her sexual preference. And that ain't happened. So yeah, gimmick. One that's displaced better, proven characters.
That's not her fault; this Batwoman story Rucka and Williams are doing has been in the works for two years. If it had appeared back then, it would have been the fleshing out everyone is saying she hasn't gotten.

Sure, right now she's riding by on the gimmick, but it wouldn't hurt to flesh her out and make her a viable character in ADDITION to the better, proven characters.

[Flâneur]

She's had enough appearances for them to drop some clues, establish something about her beyond her sexual preference. And that ain't happened. So yeah, gimmick. One that's displaced better, proven characters.

We know the following:
She's gay.
She's closted.
She dated Montoya.
She's an heiress and a socialite.
She's more aggressive in her methods than Batman.
She's jewish.
She's friendly with Nightwing.

Considering she's served as a supporting character in less than a handful of appearances, that's fairly decent. She's already a bit more than her sexual orientation and while there's not much to her as a character, there is a lot of potential which can be actualised if she's actually written in her own stories. Like she will be.

I also don't see who she's honestly displaced? Who is out of a book because of her?

[The Cool Thatguy]

We know the following:
She's gay.
She's closted.
She dated Montoya.
She's an heiress and a socialite.
She's more aggressive in her methods than Batman.
She's jewish.
She's friendly with Nightwing.

Considering she's served as a supporting character in less than a handful of appearances, that's fairly decent. She's already a bit more than her sexual orientation and while there's not much to her as a character, there is a lot of potential which can be actualised if she's actually written in her own stories. Like she will be.

I also don't see who she's honestly displaced? Who is out of a book because of her?

That's background information which really doesn't set her apart from anyone all that much (*coughHuntresscough*).

That's what she is, not who, which has been ignored for two years now.

[Flâneur]

That's background information which really doesn't set her apart from anyone all that much (*coughHuntresscough*).

That's what she is, not who, which has been ignored for two years now.

And that's because she's been put on hold. It's not like she's been featured with no characterisation, her most significant roles so far were as a minor supporting character in 52 and Crime Bible. Everything has been waiting for her series which was supposed to come out ages ago, at first to be written by Devin Grayson and then Rucka and now they're finally putting out the Batwoman issues in Detective. This is where you'll get the who and you'll be able to complain about her being gimmicky after her story has actually been told.

Regardless, you know more about her than her sexual orientation, and you know a decent amount what with her never being featured in an arc and barely even one subplot of her own.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And that's because she's been put on hold. It's not like she's been featured with no characterisation, her most significant roles so far were as a minor supporting character in 52 and Crime Bible. Everything has been waiting for her series which was supposed to come out ages ago, at first to be written by Devin Grayson and then Rucka and now they're finally putting out the Batwoman issues in Detective. This is where you'll get the who and you'll be able to complain about her being gimmicky after her story has actually been told.

Regardless, you know more about her than her sexual orientation, and you know a decent amount what with her never being featured in an arc and barely even one subplot of her own.

Decent amount? How so, when she's barely demonstrated any characterization?I want to know who is she, not what. And that's not yet been addressed.

She's had two years, plenty of promotion and time. I know alot of supporting characters who've been fleshed out better than Batwoman, so that's not really an excuse.

[Mia]

Wait, a star writer writing three other lesbians in the course of his career is a bad thing? Seriously? I acknowledge that Batwoman may have been promoted via her sexuality but that's overshooting it. The fact that the books are more diverse is a good thing, not something to complain about.

I also fail to see how she's a pet character when he wasn't originally intended to write about her and when he hasn't had her do anything prominent at all.


In that same system of logic, all new characters should be dropped for older ones. If a new character with promise is fleshed out then they won't be shallow, she will bring something to the table, but if you dismiss her as shallow before seeing anything then there's little point for anyone to introduce any new characters at all.

If she were a new character in new series, she'd still have these issues but now they're just in Detective which is without its star for a year and every other member of the bat family seems like they're being catered to. There's even extra bat books to make up the one title that Batman, if he were currently around, would lose. I don't see what the problem is? It's not like she's being shoved down your throat ... you're just getting a Batwoman & Gotham Central book for a year.

Sorry, I really don't have a clue what you are talking about. But suffice it to say, the shoehorning or instillation of Batwoman in 'Tec for a year or more smacks of contrivance on the part of the author. Something which I find to be a turn off. So I'll be dropping the book until Bruce Wayne is re-installed as the main character.

[Libaax]

Like it has been mentioned before Huntress and Batgirl have been around longer and deserve more prominence than Batwoman. Having Batwoman featured in a story arc is one thing. But to have her dominate a book for a year or more is is ridiculous when she is a new character and really has had no part of the Batverse. It smacks of conrivance on the part of the author and I find that a huge turn off.


Thats why no matter how much i like Rucka after Gotham Central and Queen &Country i wont go near this and support a character like a Batwoman.


They dont care about giving female superheroes of Batman family a chance they deserve. They care about only selling a gimmick to some fans of the Bat name....

Normally i read anything Bat related but not like this. Give Batgirl and Huntress a writer like Rucka and Tec issues..

Not some Batwoman that isnt needed.

[B. Kuwanger]

I'm not surprised at all. Of course Greg Rucka is writing Batwoman in Detective while Bruce Wayne is out of action. But it is pretty exciting, the character has serious potential and Williams is just amazing. I'll support this as long as it goes.

Or at least until all the books come out and I realize that there's no Bruce Wayne.

[Mia]

They dont care about giving female superheroes of Batman family a chance they deserve. They care about only selling a gimmick to some fans of the Bat name....

Normally i read anything Bat related but not like this. Give Batgirl and Huntress a writer like Rucka and Tec issues..

Not some Batwoman that isnt needed.

I agree. It would make more sense to have Huntress as chief guardian in Gotham given her history and the sacrifices that she has done for the city. The insertion of Batwoman in 'Tec just forced, contrived and unbelievable. I don't like having things foisted on me. I'm not that big of a Batman fan that I will support anything that they put out.

[Flâneur]

Sorry, I really don't have a clue what you are talking about. But suffice it to say, the shoehorning or instillation of Batwoman in 'Tec for a year or more smacks of contrivance on the part of the author. Something which I find to be a turn off. So I'll be dropping the book until Bruce Wayne is re-installed as the main character.
Shoehorning? How? These issues were in the works and this book was empty of its main character so they put the issues here where they'd have more exposure. It's that simple. Bruce hasn't been ditched for Batwoman, RIP was not about her, and in fact they've even added more Batman titles which will expose him even more in a year's time. He's not losing out for her. No one says you have to like Batwoman but it's not some huge conspiracy against Huntress and Batman. It's just 12 issues they reshuffled when they had an opening.
Thats why no matter how much i like Rucka after Gotham Central and Queen &Country i wont go near this and support a character like a Batwoman.


They dont care about giving female superheroes of Batman family a chance they deserve. They care about only selling a gimmick to some fans of the Bat name....

Normally i read anything Bat related but not like this. Give Batgirl and Huntress a writer like Rucka and Tec issues..

Not some Batwoman that isnt needed.

So not reading this will somehow convince DC that Huntress and Cassie are more viable? They are honestly more likely to turn their backs on the female bats if this fails rather than default to an older one.

Decent amount? How so, when she's barely demonstrated any characterization?I want to know who is she, not what. And that's not yet been addressed.

She's had two years, plenty of promotion and time. I know alot of supporting characters who've been fleshed out better than Batwoman, so that's not really an excuse.
And when has she been written? Time is only relevant in that sense if it's being used and she'd be lucky to have maybe one issue's worth of characterisation in total. There's nothing to complain about her having a shallow character since it has, for the most part, not been in a position to be shown yet.

[Alexx1]

I agree. It would make more sense to have Huntress as chief guardian in Gotham given her history and the sacrifices that she has done for the city. .

I'm totally with you on this point, Mia.

So not reading this will somehow convince DC that Huntress and Cassie are more viable? They are honestly more likely to turn their backs on the female bats if this fails rather than default to an older one.

I think a lot of people will still read it because it's Rucka and he's got a proven track record to make most stories that happen within Gotham interesting. Even though I don't care about Batwoman and don't find her neccessary and would have much preferred DC to focus on the characters already on canvass who could benefit from this move (Rucka and Tec book), I'll pick it up and give it a whirl.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And when has she been written? Time is only relevant in that sense if it's being used and she'd be lucky to have maybe one issue's worth of characterisation in total. There's nothing to complain about her having a shallow character since it has, for the most part, not been in a position to be shown yet.

Kate's shown up in 52, Crime Bible, Final Crisis Revalations and Countdown. In that time, there have been enough appearances for her to express some stance, like a crime she hates especially, hint why she became a crime fighter or where she got her training.

There was plenty of time for something. Yet we've not seen it. And in that time, she's still taking spotlight from more proven characters.

[Duy]

Kate's shown up in 52, Crime Bible, Final Crisis Revalations and Countdown. In that time, there have been enough appearances for her to express some stance, like a crime she hates especially, hint why she became a crime fighter or where she got her training.

There was plenty of time for something. Yet we've not seen it. And in that time, she's still taking spotlight from more proven characters.
I'm sorry that the fictional Batwoman is taking time away from the spotlight of the other fictional characters, but from where I sit, I'm just happy that the very real JH Williams III is going to get the spotlight on a very highly exposed book, and I'm happy that Rucka's on it and am hoping that by the end of the run, no one will be complaining about Batwoman being irrelevant anymore.

Again, it's not Batwoman's fault that she hasn't been fleshed out, and just because she hasn't been fleshed out doesn't mean she never should be, especially when it gets two creators of this caliber together.

[Mia]

Shoehorning? How?
I already explained this. Several times in fact. But I will do so again.

Batgirl and Huntress have been in the batbooks longer, they have been protectors of Gotham City longer than Batwoman. As such it would make much more logical sense for them to be protectors of Gotham City than Batwoman who was only created a few years ago and who came out of nowhere. For the readers to believe that she is the natural successor to Batman, and being made the primary focus of 'Tec when there are for more deserving characters and logical is shoehorning a character into a book.


So not reading this will somehow convince DC that Huntress and Cassie are more viable? They are honestly more likely to turn their backs on the female bats if this fails rather than default to an older one.
.

No. But hopefully it will convince DC that not all readers are willing to accept whataever they decide to cram down the readers throat. I have been collecting 'Tec for 8 years straight. And when I heard about Batwoman taking over 'Tec I told him to drop the book from my pull list. I'll go back to collecting 'Tec when Batman is the main character of the book. Or some other character who fits into the Batman mythos.

[Herr Mike]

This is awesome. Of course Bruce Wayne fans will love it, and scores of new readers will be won over by Teh Diversity. This should give DC's sales a much needed boost, and make everyone happy.

[Flâneur]

I already explained this. Several times in fact. But I will do so again.

Batgirl and Huntress have been in the batbooks longer, they have been protectors of Gotham City longer than Batwoman. As such it would make much more logical sense for them to be protectors of Gotham City than Batwoman who was only created a few years ago and who came out of nowhere. For the readers to believe that she is the natural successor to Batman, and being made the primary focus of 'Tec when there are for more deserving characters and logical is shoehorning a character into a book.

That's not shoe horning. There was an opening and it was used for a project already in production. Also, all of the bat family are involved in protecting Gotham, just because Batwoman is a part of that doesn't mean that Cass, Babs and Helena aren't and they all seem to have books to go to in the re-shuffle, permanent ones, which Batwoman doesn't. So how is Batwoman having a 12 issue stint in this book diminishing them?

No. But hopefully it will convince DC that not all readers are willing to accept whataever they decide to cram down the readers throat. I have been collecting 'Tec for 8 years straight. And when I heard about Batwoman taking over 'Tec I told him to drop the book from my pull list. I'll go back to collecting 'Tec when Batman is the main character of the book. Or some other character who fits into the Batman mythos.

Less money on this will indicate less reason to be diverse, less reason to push female or gay or new characters in the hope they'll buck the sales curse and the notion that the Batwoman name isn't as marketable a property as it hoped. That's really the only kind of messages it'll send since they're obviously trying to establish a new character which is from both of these minorities.

No one's making you buy the character's stories and I could understand if you were apathetic and uninterested in spending your money but you're giving off the impression that you feel betrayed and need to make some kind of stand with no regard as to what the character or the quality of the book is like. I have no idea why anyone would feel that way.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm sorry that the fictional Batwoman is taking time away from the spotlight of the other fictional characters, but from where I sit, I'm just happy that the very real JH Williams III is going to get the spotlight on a very highly exposed book, and I'm happy that Rucka's on it and am hoping that by the end of the run, no one will be complaining about Batwoman being irrelevant anymore.

Again, it's not Batwoman's fault that she hasn't been fleshed out, and just because she hasn't been fleshed out doesn't mean she never should be, especially when it gets two creators of this caliber together.

When did I say she never should be?

I was simply making a point as to why she is not liked as a character. She's shallow, a gimmick and has taken spotlight away from other proven characters. I'm honestly hard pressed to understand why anyone likes her in the first place.

[the goddamn batman]

Let's cut the crap. This isn't at all about "proven" characters or "deserving." This is about "I like character X more and I am teh mads that they're not getting to take over Tec."

They're fictional characters. None of them are more "deserving" than the others. To say otherwise is silly. Especially when you haven't even read the book you're already dismissing. But, being comics, that doesn't surprise me at all. :rolleyes:

Now, you really want to get into "deserving?" Batwoman was created and has lingered in nowhere... doing almost nothing... being nothing more than a gimmicky attempt at diversity. And because of this, she, far more than other "proven" characters, actually deserves a 12 issue run in a high profile book where you're complaints about her being nothing more than a gimmick can be resolved.

I mean, here they are trying to actually give her a character, and show why she's in Gotham, and explain why she became a crime fighter and make her more than a gimmick... and you're saying she isn't deserving of that because of those factors?

So.... then, like... what? Because she's a shallow character, you hate her. And now you hate her still because they're trying to possibly fix that?

Does that actually make sense to you? Does that make sense to anyone?

It shouldn't. Because it doesn't actually make any sense. It's a massive contradiction. So, yeah, it's not about "deserving" or "proven" characters. it's about "I like X more and now I am teh mads."

[The Cool Thatguy]

Let's cut the crap. This isn't at all about "proven" characters or "deserving." This is about "I like character X more and I am teh mads that they're not getting to take over Tec."

They're fictional characters. None of them are more "deserving" than the others. To say otherwise is silly. Especially when you haven't even read the book you're already dismissing. But, being comics, that doesn't surprise me at all. :rolleyes:

Now, you really want to get into "deserving?" Batwoman was created and has lingered in nowhere... doing almost nothing... being nothing more than a gimmicky attempt at diversity. And because of this, she, far more than other "proven" characters, actually deserves a 12 issue run in a high profile book where you're complaints about her being nothing more than a gimmick can be resolved.

I mean, here they are trying to actually give her a character, and show why she's in Gotham, and explain why she became a crime fighter and make her more than a gimmick... and you're saying she isn't deserving of that because of those factors?

So.... then, like... what? Because she's a shallow character, you hate her. And now you hate her still because they're trying to possibly fix that?

Does that actually make sense to you? Does that make sense to anyone?

It shouldn't. Because it doesn't actually make any sense. It's a massive contradiction. So, yeah, it's not about "deserving" or "proven" characters. it's about "I like X more and now I am teh mads."

If the fact that they're fictional characters means that they're not worth having an opinion over...why do you have one?

And I'm not seeing any contradiction in my dislike of her, or alot of logic in your post. Batwoman's been in limbo, Batgirl, Huntress and other characters have sold books on their own merits. So somehow that makes Batwoman more deserving and a proven character? Her having done nothing compared to them actually selling books?

[the goddamn batman]

I don't think you could have missed my point more. It's early; maybe I didn't convey it properly.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't think you could have missed my point more. It's early; maybe I didn't convey it properly.

Or it wasn't a good point :tongue:

[Mia]

That's not shoe horning.

Yes it is. Forcing a character that has never been part or parcel of a particular universe/story line to take a major role. Is forced and contrived and therefore Is shoehorning


There was an opening and it was used for a project already in production. Also, all of the bat family are involved in protecting Gotham, just because Batwoman is a part of that doesn't mean that Cass, Babs and Helena aren't and they all seem to have books to go to in the re-shuffle, permanent ones, which Batwoman doesn't. So how is Batwoman having a 12 issue stint in this book diminishing them?

Sorry again, your post is not clear. I have no idea what you are talking about.


Less money on this will indicate less reason to be diverse, less reason to push female or gay or new characters in the hope they'll buck the sales curse and the notion that the Batwoman name isn't as marketable a property as it hoped. That's really the only kind of messages it'll send since they're obviously trying to establish a new character which is from both of these minorities.

I don't buy comics to push diversity. In fact I am a member of a visible minority and it doesn't bother me one iota as to whether or not my gender, race religion or socio econimic status or education or whatever is reflected in a comic book. That's not why I buy comic books. I buy comics to read good engaging, organic and well thought out stories. I also by comics so that I can read about qualities I admire in men and women. If I want to see a reflection of myself I will look in a mirror. Anyone who needs to see themselves reflected in a comic book has a serious problem with low self-esteem.


No one's making you buy the character's stories and I could understand if you were apathetic and uninterested

I am apethetic and uniterested in reading about Batwoman.


in NOTspending your money but you're giving off the impression that you feel betrayed and need to make some kind of stand with no regard as to what the character or the quality of the book is like. I have no idea why anyone would feel that way.)Fixed)

By not spending money. I give off the impression that I won't put up with rubbishy, contrived stories that are being merely used as a gimmick or to showcase the authors pet character. When a book is not meeting my requirements. Then I stop investing money in it.

[the goddamn batman]

It's a perfectly good point. Here, let me try and break it down for you more simply.

Batwoman = nothing, really. She's got almost no character. So for that she's not "deserving."

They give her a 12 issue run on a high profile book where their intent is to resolve that problem.

But because of that problem she doesn't deserve to have that problem fixed.

That's your logic. How does that logic make sense to you? It doesn't make any sense to me.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's a perfectly good point. Here, let me try and break it down for you more simply.

Batwoman = nothing, really. She's got almost no character. So for that she's not "deserving."

They give her a 12 issue run on a high profile book where their intent is to resolve that problem.

But because of that problem she doesn't deserve to have that problem fixed.

That's your logic. How does that logic make sense to you? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Makes sense to me, given how they scuttled Batgirl two years ago for Batwoman's sake, and I like Batgirl. They've had two years to flesh out Batwoman and refused to do it. Now they're going to focus on her instead of other characters...why, exactly?

As I've said, she's a shallow gimmick character who's been poorly executed and placed ahead of pre-existing characters for no other reason than she's a pet character. I see no contradiction in my dislike of her and I've explained myself rather well, so yes I see plenty of logic in my motivations.

[the goddamn batman]

Makes sense to me, given how they scuttled Batgirl two years ago for Batwoman's sake, and I like Batgirl.

Well, you just proved my point.

They've had two years to flesh out Batwoman and refused to do it. Now they're going to focus on her instead of other characters...why, exactly?

uh... because for two years they haven't... and if you're going to create a character, you should, you know, give her character. Better late than never, right?

Batgirl and Huntress don't need that. Batwoman does. But I see where you're coming from. Preference aside, if they weren't trying to fix the character's lack of character, you could go on hating her for her lack of character.

As I've said, she's a shallow gimmick character who's been poorly executed and placed ahead of pre-existing characters for no other reason than she's a pet character.

She is a shallow gimmick character. They're trying to fix that. But as you made so clear in the first part of this post, you're only upset because she's being placed ahead of your pet character.

I see no contradiction in my dislike of her and I've explained myself rather well, so yes I see plenty of logic in my motivations.

It's not about your dislike of her... it's about your desire for her to remain a shallow character... so that you can continue to hate her for being a shallow character, because the only reason you don't like her is because she's a shallow character.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well, you just proved my point..

Nope, not really.


uh... because for two years they haven't... and if you're going to create a character, you should, you know, give her character. Better late than never, right?.

True, but there's no reason why they couldn't haven't given her character at, ya know, the beginning.

Batgirl and Huntress don't need that. Batwoman does. But I see where you're coming from. Preference aside, if they weren't trying to fix the character's lack of character, you could go on hating her for her lack of character..

You ASSume that I want to hate her. Not smart.

She is a shallow gimmick character. They're trying to fix that. But as you made so clear in the first part of this post, you're only upset because she's being placed ahead of your pet character..

That, and the fact that they continue to undermine Cass' character.


It's not about your dislike of her... it's about your desire for her to remain a shallow character... so that you can continue to hate her for being a shallow character, because the only reason you don't like her is because she's a shallow character.

lol

You playing arm chair shrink is more shallow than Batwoman and up until now I didn't think that possible. I've been very clear about my dislike for her. I hate gimmicks, shallow characters and pet characters. She's all three. Get over yourself and read what I type, please, instead of reading what you want to see.

[Ben Reilly#6]

And I'm not seeing any contradiction in my dislike of her, or alot of logic in your post. Batwoman's been in limbo, Batgirl, Huntress and other characters have sold books on their own merits. So somehow that makes Batwoman more deserving and a proven character? Her having done nothing compared to them actually selling books?

In a way, yeah. Not sales-wise, but sometimes it's not a bad idea to try to use a long-forgotten character in a new story, baring they're interesting enough. I'm thinking it's the same line of thought DC was following when they decided to bring back the MLJ superheroes, or even back when they bought the old Charlton Comics superheroes. They decided to gamble on the chance that they might be able to tell good stories featuring fresh depictions of old characters.

That said, I still don't see the point. I mean, I'll give her a chance, I really will. I really hope Rucka can show all of us what he sees in the character, because I honestly can't see the appeal. At all. Especially since, from a narrative point of view, there are a gaggle (never thought I'd actually use that term) of characters already occupying Gotham that could use/would do well with the focus.

Honestly, I'm glad Rucka's finally getting a chance to tell the story he's apparently had on his mind for two years, but how important can it be? Why is it so special that it merits being told in Detective Comics, as opposed to some one-shot/miniseries like the others coming out? I'm not saying the story shouldn't be told because of this, but these are quite important questions.

[Mat001]

1. If anyone is chief guardian of Gotham after Bruce, it's Dick and Tim. Followed by Barbara if she could walk. Then Cassandra and Helena.

2. Huntress is in the Outsiders book, which is why she isn't in Detective. She, along with Batgirl have their own books to florish in. Batwoman does not have one, which is why she's given 'Tec.

3. She may be a gimmick, but that's about to change as we go. Get over it, people.

[The Cool Thatguy]

1. If anyone is chief guardian of Gotham after Bruce, it's Dick and Tim. Followed by Barbara if she could walk. Then Cassandra and Helena.

2. Huntress is in the Outsiders book, which is why she isn't in Detective. She, along with Batgirl have their own books to florish in. Batwoman does not have one, which is why she's given 'Tec.

3. She may be a gimmick, but that's about to change as we go. Get over it, people.

Huntress isn't in the Outsiders book, actually. IIRC, it's the original team plus Owlman and Creeper.

[Alexx1]

Huntress isn't in Outsiders.

[FemGeek]

1. If anyone is chief guardian of Gotham after Bruce, it's Dick and Tim. Followed by Barbara if she could walk. Then Cassandra and Helena.

2. Huntress is in the Outsiders book, which is why she isn't in Detective. She, along with Batgirl have their own books to florish in. Batwoman does not have one, which is why she's given 'Tec.

3. She may be a gimmick, but that's about to change as we go. Get over it, people.

Very good points. I disike Batwoman too, but giving her a years run in 'Tec isn't so bad. It's only one of, what, eight batbooks? As long as thats it and they dont try and force her into the rest of the books, especially if its gonna push out Cass and Babs.
Is Huntress gonna be in Outsiders?? Was this confirmed somewhere? I never saw her in any of the promo art or interviews. I hope it is.

Edit: never mind, just saw the other posts. Aw.

[the goddamn batman]

Honestly, this post of yours is a bit on the rude side. I haven't been rude to you. YOu might not like what I've said, but it hasn't been rude. So, I'm going to ask that you not be rude to me, or I'm done after this.

Nope, not really.

Actually, yeah. Totally. My point was that you, and here's the thing... the key thing in my point: like Batgirl more.

True, but there's no reason why they couldn't haven't given her character at, ya know, the beginning.

Sure. Ideally, yeah. But, and again, the point is that they didn't. So, like, why shouldn't they now? What's wrong with correcting a mistake?

You ASSume that I want to hate her. Not smart.

Yeah, I made an ASSumption based on what I read in your post. It went like this:

You don't like her because she's a shallow gimmick of a character. Correct?

And now you don't like that they're trying to fix that because she's a shallow gimmick character. Correct?

So... like, man, I'm confused on what they can, at this point, do with the character that would actually please you.

Other than maybe give her a book that no one would buy because she's a shallow gimmick character... and give Tec to batgirl because she's more 'deserving' and you'd be happy because you like Batgirl more. Correct?

That, and the fact that they continue to undermine Cass' character.

That's really got nothing to do with Batwoman. That's entirely separate.

I hate gimmicks, shallow characters and pet characters. She's all three.

But... I mean, they're doing this to fix that problem. And you're not happy about that. Correct? Or is it just that because you prefer batgirl more, you want Batwoman fixed in a different book?

Honestly, I don't know why you got so rude during this post... but, let's hope that's the last of it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Honestly, this post of yours is a bit on the rude side. I haven't been rude to you. YOu might not like what I've said, but it hasn't been rude. So, I'm going to ask that you not be rude to me, or I'm done after this..

You've played airchair shrink,and have tried to tell me my motivations. And somehow, I'm the one being rude?

Actually, yeah. Totally. My point was that you, and here's the thing... the key thing in my point: like Batgirl more. .

Your point?

Sure. Ideally, yeah. But, and again, the point is that they didn't. So, like, why shouldn't they now? What's wrong with correcting a mistake?.

When did I say that there was something wrong with it?

Yeah, I made an ASSumption based on what I read in your post. It went like this:

You don't like her because she's a shallow gimmick of a character. Correct?

And now you don't like that they're trying to fix that because she's a shallow gimmick character. Correct?.

No, I don't like that her exposure has been at the expense of other more well established characters.

So... like, man, I'm confused on what they can, at this point, do with the character that would actually please you..

Make her interesting, maybe? Without needlessly sidelining other characters? Give her an actual purpose? You know, the basics.

Other than maybe give her a book that no one would buy because she's a shallow gimmick character... and give Tec to batgirl because she's more 'deserving' and you'd be happy because you like Batgirl more. Correct?.

Virtually every other Bat character has had to go through a mini at some point before getting an ongoing. What's wrong with expecting the same of Batwoman?

Tec ought to go to Nightwing, Huntress or Batgirl, honestly.


That's really got nothing to do with Batwoman. That's entirely separate..

Nope. The Powers that Be sidelined Batgirl thinking that they could make Batwoman the next big thing. They failed, but are still sidelining Batgirl.


But... I mean, they're doing this to fix that problem. And you're not happy about that. Correct? Or is it just that because you prefer batgirl more, you want Batwoman fixed in a different book?.

I'd prefer that they fleshed her out some first before giving her an ongoing. I'm hard pressed to see what's so unreasonable about that.

Honestly, I don't know why you got so rude during this post... but, let's hope that's the last of it.

That's up to you. Don't make a habit of telling me what I think, eh?

[Libaax]

So not reading this will somehow convince DC that Huntress and Cassie are more viable? They are honestly more likely to turn their backs on the female bats if this fails rather than default to an older one.
.

I dont care what they think. I will just vote with my money that i dont care for Batwoman when she is forced gimmick.

Im just saying im not one of those who will buy into Batwoman just cause there is Bat in the name.

[the goddamn batman]

You've played airchair shrink,and have tried to tell me my motivations. And somehow, I'm the one being rude?

Like I said, I'm only going off what I'm reading in your posts. There's no attempt at armchair shrink. I don't really have any interest in you personally. Sorry.

Your point?

Really? Like, honestly? Really?

You. Like. Batgirl. More. It's really very simple math... and I've said it so many times, and I thought, totally spelled it out in that last one. Plus? You've said it yourself a time or two. You're not into this because you think Batgirl is more deserving because you... and, again like her more.

When did I say that there was something wrong with it?

Well, they're doing it now, and you seem pretty against it. Or is it, as I tried to suggest in my last post, not so much that they're doing it, but where they're doing it?

No, I don't like that her exposure has been at the expense of other more well established characters.

Well established characters don't need exposure.

Make her interesting, maybe?

Well.. again, that seems to be what they're trying to do with this 12 issue run.

Without needlessly sidelining other characters?

So, again, this comes back to Batgirl, your pet character getting shafted. Like I said initially, this isn't about "deserving." It's about what character you like more.

Give her an actual purpose?

Again, that's what they're doing with this run. Is it not?

You know, the basics.

Again, see this run.

Virtually every other Bat character has had to go through a mini at some point before getting an ongoing. What's wrong with expecting the same of Batwoman?

This is her Mini. 12 issues in Tec isn't her own ongoing Batwoman title. It's a mini put into a high profile book while Batman wasn't going to be in it anyway.

And it's probably the smartest move they could have made with the character. Which, being a business, is the right thing to do. DC doesn't care about what character you like more, or who some people think is more deserving of what. They care about selling comic books. And if they can make another character interesting and expose her to more people by putting her in Tec, then that's what they're going to do. And it's what they should do. Batgirl already has her fans, is apparently getting her own book...? So, how does getting your own book = getting sidelined or shafted?

Tec ought to go to Nightwing, Huntress or Batgirl, honestly.

Well, Nightwing is busy battling for the cowl... and maybe he wins... maybe he doesn't... maybe that's him under the cowl on that last page. Because it sure isn't Bruce.

As for the other two, why? Why are they more "deserving" than, say Tim or anyone else who wears a Bat-mask and fight crime in Gotham? And who's to say they won't also be in the book?

Nope. The Powers that Be sidelined Batgirl thinking that they could make Batwoman the next big thing. They failed, but are still sidelining Batgirl.

Isn't she getting her own book? I thought somebody said she was?

I'd prefer that they fleshed her out some first before giving her an ongoing. I'm hard pressed to see what's so unreasonable about that.

There's nothing unreasonable about that preference. But they didn't. And that's already done. They can't change what they did or didn't do in the past, except to try and rectify it now. Which is what they're doing, apparently at the expense of Batgirl. Which I don't see... or care about at all, personally.

That's up to you. Don't make a habit of telling me what I think, eh?

I asked a lot of questions, trying to understand your opinion, and you haven't actually answered any of those. You're just dropping insults at me in the form of "Armchair shrink" and "ASSume." Maybe you thought that was clever, or subtle, but I know when I'm being called an ass. And that's flat out against the rules here. Assuming something isn't. So, no, it's clearly up to you how you're choosing to play. Don't pass off the responsibility of your actions on me.

[kaelikins]

You know, if I were a comic writer, or artist, or editor, or even just a mail clerk at DC's offices, I'd be terrified every day that every decision I make would be regarded with this level of scrutiny, and that no matter what I do, some people are going to be mortally offended by my actions, regardless of my intentions, and before even seeing the results.

Mr. Rucka and Mr. Williams? If you read this, I apologize, and I retract my trivial observation about Batwoman's nipples. Reading this thread today has reminded me that these are, after all, just comic books, and I for one support your efforts to tell a good story about a character who has nothing but room to grow.

I'll wait until I read the story to decide if I liked it... and even then, I probably won't post about it. I have in the past, sure... but egad. They're only comic books. Bring on the nipples, boys!

[The Cool Thatguy]

Like I said, I'm only going off what I'm reading in your posts. There's no attempt at armchair shrink. I don't really have any interest in you personally. Sorry..

Or is it just that because you prefer batgirl more, you want Batwoman fixed in a different book?

Says arm chair shrink to me.

Really? Like, honestly? Really?

You. Like. Batgirl. More. It's really very simple math... and I've said it so many times, and I thought, totally spelled it out in that last one. Plus? You've said it yourself a time or two. You're not into this because you think Batgirl is more deserving because you... and, again like her more..

Yes, and?

Well, they're doing it now, and you seem pretty against it. Or is it, as I tried to suggest in my last post, not so much that they're doing it, but where they're doing it?.

Pretty much. Detective Comics has long been a Batman comic book. By making it a Batwoman series, they're trying to be sneaky

Well established characters don't need exposure.

So what, they shopuld be kicked to the curb in favor of the latest brain fart? That didn't do so well in the 90s.

Well.. again, that seems to be what they're trying to do with this 12 issue run.

Yeah, in what was traditionally a Batman book. Had they just gone ahead with a Batwoman mini series, I wouldn't have been as annoyed (ignoring the other factors, mind).

So, again, this comes back to Batgirl, your pet character getting shafted. Like I said initially, this isn't about "deserving." It's about what character you like more..

No, deserving. I dislike when pet, shallow or gimmick characters get pushed ahead of those who're tried and true. I'm not against new characters, but they have to pay their dues like everyone else. Generally, that leads to better story telling.

Again, that's what they're doing with this run. Is it not?.

Vaguely.

This is her Mini. 12 issues in Tec isn't her own ongoing Batwoman title. It's a mini put into a high profile book while Batman wasn't going to be in it anyway..

So it's not Batwoman's character being pushed on the basis of her own merits, but instead put into a long time Batman book. Not exactly the same as a mini series.

And it's probably the smartest move they could have made with the character. Which, being a business, is the right thing to do. DC doesn't care about what character you like more, or who some people think is more deserving of what. They care about selling comic books. And if they can make another character interesting and expose her to more people by putting her in Tec, then that's what they're going to do. And it's what they should do. Batgirl already has her fans, is apparently getting her own book...? So, how does getting your own book = getting sidelined or shafted?.

Guess you didn't read the Batgirl mini. And remember, they shafted Batgirl two years ago for Batwoman's sake.

Well, Nightwing is busy battling for the cowl... and maybe he wins... maybe he doesn't... maybe that's him under the cowl on that last page. Because it sure isn't Bruce..

As for the other two, why? Why are they more "deserving" than, say Tim or anyone else who wears a Bat-mask and fight crime in Gotham? And who's to say they won't also be in the book?.

I just threw out names of characters who didn't have a book.

Isn't she getting her own book? I thought somebody said she was?.

There's going to be a Batgirl series following a Oracle mini series called 'The Cure'. Dan D has stated that Cass' mini proved she couldn't substain a series and we're talking about the same people who brought back Barry Allen. Math ain't hard on that one.

There's nothing unreasonable about that preference. But they didn't. And that's already done. They can't change what they did or didn't do in the past, except to try and rectify it now. Which is what they're doing, apparently at the expense of Batgirl. Which I don't see... or care about at all, personally..

Well, I do.

I asked a lot of questions, trying to understand your opinion, and you haven't actually answered any of those. You're just dropping insults at me in the form of "Armchair shrink" and "ASSume." Maybe you thought that was clever, or subtle, but I know when I'm being called an ass. And that's flat out against the rules here. Assuming something isn't. So, no, it's clearly up to you how you're choosing to play. Don't pass off the responsibility of your actions on me.

I'm not. Don't try to tell me what I think, it's not considered polite.

[nepenthes]

oh wow look, this thread has become lame

[the goddamn batman]

EDIT: Nevermind. I'm done. I don't really want to argue about this with you anymore.

[elias_A]

I'm quite sure that it's only speculation that Cass was turned evil to make room for Kate Kane.

There are some reasons to assume it I guess, but from what I know it's hardly a proven fact.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm quite sure that it's only speculation that Cass was turned evil to make room for Kate Kane.

There are some reasons to assume it I guess, but from what I know it's hardly a proven fact.

Very true. That's why we have inference and common sense ;)

[B. Kuwanger]

To me it simply comes down to the fact that the others have all had their chance. I'm a new reader to Bat books not featuring Bruce, and I'm pretty relieved that I can get into this with the only two or three facts I know.

[Seraku]

you've all ruined my thread :mad:

[Captain Jim]

Not necessarily trying to cut off discussion, but it does seem to me that all of these arguments have become rather repetitive. Anyone have anything new to say?

[Captain Jim]

Check out CBR's interview with Rucka here (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=19983)

and then comment on said article here (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=256504)

[Dazzler]

I'm really, really looking forward to this!

It'll be the first Bat-related anything I've read in years. Not a huge fan of the Gotham crowd, but, I like the look of Batwoman, I like that's she's a lesbian (I know, I know, you're not supposed to like a character based on something like that these days, but screw that), I like that she seems a little bit more on the soft-sadistic side based on these previews, and I especially like that she's a bit of a Tabula Rasa of a character.

That means that I can grow as a fan along with her character development and maybe even ease myself into more Bat-books....

I think it's a very exciting project.

--Dazz

[d newton]

I dislike when pet, shallow or gimmick characters get pushed ahead of those who're tried and true.
Read my comment on page 8.

I'm not.
I must have misread this, then:
Nice counter arguement there. No discussion of the issue at hand, just casual dismissal of the opinions of others.

[Trey]

You know, if I were a comic writer, or artist, or editor, or even just a mail clerk at DC's offices, I'd be terrified every day that every decision I make would be regarded with this level of scrutiny, and that no matter what I do, some people are going to be mortally offended by my actions, regardless of my intentions, and before even seeing the results.

Mr. Rucka and Mr. Williams? If you read this, I apologize, and I retract my trivial observation about Batwoman's nipples. Reading this thread today has reminded me that these are, after all, just comic books, and I for one support your efforts to tell a good story about a character who has nothing but room to grow.

I'll wait until I read the story to decide if I liked it... and even then, I probably won't post about it. I have in the past, sure... but egad. They're only comic books. Bring on the nipples, boys!

Well said.

Look, this is a fairly new character, revamped from a previous Batwoman. Has had a few appearances, (Revelations, she was Anti-Lifed, not much chance to explore character)

DC is saying here is the concept: a female Batman, billionaire, an asskicker, redhead, kinda hot, very cool red and black costume, happens to be a lesbian, used to be with Montoya, Rucka and JH III, awesome art. Here's the preview, Batman shows up (or does he?) Are you intrigued?

The answer is hell YES!!!!

This issue will sell top 5 in June. Retailers, be sure you order enough!!
And people are complaining?

[the goddamn batman]

And people are complaining?

Welcome to comic books.

[Babylon23]

Batwoman has piqued my curiosity enough for me to check out this series. It helps that Rucka and Williams are the creators involved, as they are two of the best talents in the industry right now.

I'm hoping we'll see a bit of Montoya in this series as well. I've enjoyed Rucka's work with her from Gotham Central through 52 and Crime Bible.

[Craig M.D.]

http://www.afterellen.com/blog/thelinster/batwoman-fills-batmans-boots

Apparenlty, Batwoman has made a few fans in the lesbian community.

[pariah-1972]

I don't know if i can wait for this to come out any longer !!!!!!!:eek:
i mean Rucka who writes really good strong females and is also a great choice for Detective and J.H Williams work on Detective made me a huge fan of his.

I could not be happier than if i i won the lottery at this point.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[Mat001]

I dont care what they think. I will just vote with my money that i dont care for Batwoman when she is forced gimmick.

Im just saying im not one of those who will buy into Batwoman just cause there is Bat in the name.

I dont care what they think. I will just vote with my money that i dont care for Batwoman when she is forced gimmick[/quote]

Well, technically, so is Batman. He was created to cash-in on Superman's popularity and is a bit of a rip-off of the Shadow and Zorro. He was every bit as forced as Batwoman.

And appologies about Huntress in Outsiders. I thought she was going to be.

[Libaax]

I dont care what they think. I will just vote with my money that i dont care for Batwoman when she is forced gimmick

Well, technically, so is Batman. He was created to cash-in on Superman's popularity and is a bit of a rip-off of the Shadow and Zorro. He was every bit as forced as Batwoman.

And appologies about Huntress in Outsiders. I thought she was going to be.[/QUOTE]


Oh is Batman called Superboy or something :rolleyes:

Inspired by Zorro and Shadow like that was news.

What dont you get there is nothing with Batwoman.

Its how they are selling this new Batwoman. How they used her in 52 and selling her.

[paulski]

This issue will sell top 5 in June. Retailers, be sure you order enough!!
I tend to disgree - there'll be a definite spike in sales but I can't see it getting anywhere near Top 5, even Top 10 for that matter.

If I was taking a punt, I'd guess somewhere between #16 and #20. We shall see. :smile:

[Mia]

No thats would be Gotham Knights kind of series.


Detective Comics is THE Batman series in the old school vien of Detective oriented Batman.

Its was my only Batman comic.

They should have given Batwoman her own comic. Cause giving her Tec wont prove anything. It well sell cause its a legendary Batman comic not because of her.

Thats pointless. Why not do her own mini or ongoing see if they can make her work.

I dont dislike her that much as i sound but i just wanted my only real Batman stories in Detective comics.

I completely agree. She should be given her own mini series. She should not be hijacking 'Tec. I'm very disapointed that DC has taken this tack. I'll be curious as to the sales figures are when the book comes out.


"I think there's a legitimate question as to why we should care about this character, other than that she's a Bat," Rucka added, "and after this arc we will see that it's because she's kick-ass cool."



Kick ass cool? I read a bit about her in an issue of 52. And I saw nothing kick ass about her at all. She's nothing but a pale imitation of Huntress.

[GDB]

I don't really see her hijacking anything. Going by the teaser image for Battle for the Cowl, she seems to be getting played up as a more detective-like character than Batman. Not necessarily a "better" detective, but a more active one at least.

In said teaser, she's holding a magnifying glass, which is obvious what it signifies. Her girlfriend is a detective. In the Detective Comics preview, she's gathering information about the whereabouts of someone. So... why shouldn't she be in a book titled Detective Comics?

[Duy]

She also has an insanely cool costume.

[Mia]

I don't really see her hijacking anything. Going by the teaser image for Battle for the Cowl, she seems to be getting played up as a more detective-like character than Batman. Not necessarily a "better" detective, but a more active one at least.

In said teaser, she's holding a magnifying glass, which is obvious what it signifies. Her girlfriend is a detective. In the Detective Comics preview, she's gathering information about the whereabouts of someone. So... why shouldn't she be in a book titled Detective Comics?


Detective Comics is not a comic book about Detectives. If that were the case then the book would feature a different roster of Detectives. It is a book about Batman and occassionally features his supporting characters. Characters who have been a part of Batman's universe for a long time. Characters who have made sacrifices to save and protect Gotham City, and characters who would be a far more natural fit to take over for Batman/Bruce Wayne during his abscence than Batwoman who came out of nowhere.

[GDB]

Detective Comics is not a comic book about Detectives. If that were the case then the book would feature a different roster of Detectives. It is a book about Batman and occassionally features his supporting characters. Characters who have been a part of Batman's universe for a long time. Characters who have made sacrifices to save and protect Gotham City, and characters who would be a far more natural fit to take over for Batman/Bruce Wayne during his abscence than Batwoman who came out of nowhere.

So Batman has starred in every issue of Detective Comics, despite not being created until #27? And Batman himself isn't a detective? Batman is a book specifically about Batman. Detective Comics isn't, it just happens to be pre-dominantly used by him.

As for "natural"? Natural would be Batman not getting sent into the past or an alternate reality based on the past.

[Duy]

I still don't see why anyone would complain about anything if it involves Rucka and Williams working together.

Don't like it? Don't buy it. At least it saves money.

[Mia]

So Batman has starred in every issue of Detective Comics, despite not being created until #27?

That's pretty obvious. I didn't think that you would need that explained to you.



And Batman himself isn't a detective? Batman is a book specifically about Batman. Detective Comics isn't, it just happens to be pre-dominantly used by him.:rolleyes:

As for "natural"? Natural would be Batman not getting sent into the past or an alternate reality based on the past.

Now you're just being silly.


Don't like it? Don't buy it. At least it saves money.

That's what I'm doing.

[Mia]

I tend to disgree - there'll be a definite spike in sales but I can't see it getting anywhere near Top 5, even Top 10 for that matter.

If I was taking a punt, I'd guess somewhere between #16 and #20. We shall see. :smile:


I don't see the book doing well especially given the fact that the book will be featuring an obscure character and a female one at that.

[GDB]

Now you're just being silly.

No, you're the one claiming that a detective shouldn't star in a book titled Detective Comics because:
a) She's not Batman
b) She's a new character

[Mia]

No, you're the one claiming that a detective shouldn't star in a book titled Detective Comics because:
a) She's not Batman
b) She's a new character



Nope, Your words not mine. Never once made that claim.

[GDB]

Nope, Your words not mine. Never once made that claim.
It is a book about Batman and occassionally features his supporting characters. Characters who have been a part of Batman's universe for a long time. Characters who have made sacrifices to save and protect Gotham City, and characters who would be a far more natural fit to take over for Batman/Bruce Wayne during his abscence than Batwoman who came out of nowhere.

So, yeah. You said it's Batman's book, and since she hasn't done all these random things, she doesn't deserve to star in the book. She hasn't done those things because she's a new character... so yeah, your words.

[Mia]

Sure I quoted this:

Detective Comics is not a comic book about Detectives. If that were the case then the book would feature a different roster of Detectives. It is a book about Batman and occassionally features his supporting characters. Characters who have been a part of Batman's universe for a long time. Characters who have made sacrifices to save and protect Gotham City, and characters who would be a far more natural fit to take over for Batman/Bruce Wayne during his abscence than Batwoman who came out of nowhere.

Which is far different from this:

No, you're the one claiming that a detective shouldn't star in a book titled Detective Comics because:
a) She's not Batman
b) She's a new character

[GDB]

How, exactly? Because I see it as being the same, with mine just being in short list form.

[Captain Jim]

I tend to disgree - there'll be a definite spike in sales but I can't see it getting anywhere near Top 5, even Top 10 for that matter.

If I was taking a punt, I'd guess somewhere between #16 and #20. We shall see. :smile:

No way will this be in the top five; that's just not realistic. I don't even think there will be a spike in sales--the previous issue is Gaiman & Kubert!!!

But I do think it will do decent.

[carabas]

It will certainly do at least twice or three times as well as a Bat-Woman mini or ongoing, which is probably the whole point in the first place.

If I were DC, I'd be getting pretty tired of putting out new character after new character (well, new legacy character anyway), see most of them critically successes, have them develop small but fiercely loyal fanbases, and then see it fail two years in.

[carabas]

I completely agree. She should be given her own mini series. She should not be hijacking 'Tec. I'm very disapointed that DC has taken this tack. I'll be curious as to the sales figures are when the book comes out.Would you be saying the same thing if Huntress were to take over Tec for a year?

[Libaax]

Would you be saying the same thing if Huntress were to take over Tec for a year?

I dont think so. I know i wouldnt.

Huntress is a hero that deserves the top level team that this new Batwoman is getting.

She doesnt deserve it because she is a proven Bat character. She dont usually get good creator teams.

Who does she get ? Some new female writer who had never written comics before....

[pariah-1972]

I'm really amazed at how many people have issues with a character noone hardly knows anything about.

I think if it wasn't for the stupid over the top media attention noone would really be caring all that much at this point.

And i personally think it's sort of immature to be hating on this book just because your favorite character isn't being showcased in here, especially when we don't really know what DC's complete plans are for Huntress or Batgirl at this point.

I known it's probably asking too much for people to be open minded about a character they know hardly anything about, but i would think it would make more sense if the people who are ranting and raving on here at least give it a chance before going off on the deep end for no reason.

Besides noone is forcing you to buy this book and she's not replacing any other character at this point.

I honestly don't think sales are gonna be all that great and DC will probably forget about her after this, since it seems so many people are prejudiced against her already and in a year Detective will go back to being a Batman title.

[Duy]

I'm really amazed at how many people have issues with a character noone hardly knows anything about.

I think if it wasn't for the stupid over the top media attention noone would really be caring all that much at this point.

And i personally think it's sort of immature to be hating on this book just because your favorite character isn't being showcased in here, especially when we don't really know what DC's complete plans are for Huntress or Batgirl at this point.

I known it's probably asking too much for people to be open minded about a character they know hardly anything about, but i would think it would make more sense if the people who are ranting and raving on here at least give it a chance before going off on the deep end for no reason.

Besides noone is forcing you to buy this book and she's not replacing any other character at this point.

I honestly don't think sales are gonna be all that great and DC will probably forget about her after this, since it seems so many people are prejudiced against her already and in a year Detective will go back to being a Batman title.
I don't get why aversion to a character no one knows anything about can so overwhelmingly offset the pairing of a great writer with a great artist.

[Libaax]

I'm really amazed at how many people have issues with a character noone hardly knows anything about.

I think if it wasn't for the stupid over the top media attention noone would really be caring all that much at this point.

And i personally think it's sort of immature to be hating on this book just because your favorite character isn't being showcased in here, especially when we don't really know what DC's complete plans are for Huntress or Batgirl at this point.

I known it's probably asking too much for people to be open minded about a character they know hardly anything about, but i would think it would make more sense if the people who are ranting and raving on here at least give it a chance before going off on the deep end for no reason.

Besides noone is forcing you to buy this book and she's not replacing any other character at this point.

I honestly don't think sales are gonna be all that great and DC will probably forget about her after this, since it seems so many people are prejudiced against her already and in a year Detective will go back to being a Batman title.


I dont hate her and my only problem is she are starring in Tec who is my only Batman book currently.

If she was in other Bat books i wouldnt care about her at all.

I like Rucka but i dont the buy the idea of a new Batwoman.

99% of the times i follow the writers i like but i dont need another Bat character to read,buy just cause they are Bat family.

[Jaws4]

I was just making a list.

[the goddamn batman]

No way will this be in the top five; that's just not realistic. I don't even think there will be a spike in sales--the previous issue is Gaiman & Kubert!!!

But I do think it will do decent.

I'd be more interesting to compare it's sales against standard Tec sales instead of the Gaiman issue. Gaiman's kind of a hard one to top. I'd be curious to see how this stacks up against Dini's run.

It'll also be interesting to see how it's sales hold up over the course of the 12 issue run.

[Scott Taylor]

Before FC:Revelations I might not have given this a chance. But now...I'm in. Kane is just one heck of a tortured soul, perfect for this role.

[pariah-1972]

I'd be more interesting to compare it's sales against standard Tec sales instead of the Gaiman issue. Gaiman's kind of a hard one to top. I'd be curious to see how this stacks up against Dini's run.

It'll also be interesting to see how it's sales hold up over the course of the 12 issue run.I don't think it's gonna be top ten considering it's a female and how much DC has completely bungled her.

[nepenthes]

my only problem is she are starring in Tec who is my only Batman book currently.

you do realize Dini is moving to another batman book yes? possibly even two and it's very likely Nguyen will continue for the ride.

So it's only a title on the front cover you're complaining about now.

[Libaax]

you do realize Dini is moving to another batman book yes? possibly even two and it's very likely Nguyen will continue for the ride.

So it's only a title on the front cover you're complaining about now.

Who knows what Dini will do.

If he did another Batman starring book then its perfect. He could be writing a series with Jason Todd next for all i know.

Dini's Batman is my current Batman stories. I will read any character he does but i dont like that he wont be writing Tec or Batman himself for months.

For he wont get Batman main and there is only two Batman books.

[Joe Rice]

Why is Williams' art being wasted on Rucka? Ugh.

[Duy]

I dont hate her and my only problem is she are starring in Tec who is my only Batman book currently.

Then go to another Bat-book, whichever one Dini writes.

If she was in other Bat books i wouldnt care about her at all.

The whole story is to give you a reason to care.

I like Rucka but i dont the buy the idea of a new Batwoman.

That's why they're going to work hard at selling it.

99% of the times i follow the writers i like but i dont need another Bat character to read,buy just cause they are Bat family.

Okay, but I still think missing out on Rucka and Williams just because you don't like the character(despite not knowing anything about her) is really an injustice to both creators.

[Libaax]

Then go to another Bat-book, whichever one Dini writes.



The whole story is to give you a reason to care.



That's why they're going to work hard at selling it.



Okay, but I still think missing out on Rucka and Williams just because you don't like the character(despite not knowing anything about her) is really an injustice to both creators.

Willaims isnt a favorite but Rucka is a fav. Normally i would read this run only for him. But i dont need it right now. Im trying to catch up to other Bat character,stories i like.


A year ago i might have tried it just because of the creators as usual. But these days my pull is smaller than you cant try something you dont find interesting.

If the idea isnt interesting to you then the creators cant sell the story to you.

As you can see my pull im not the kind of a superhero fan who buys everything with Batman name in it.


P.S Hold the arrogant go somewhere else where Dini writes. Not that easy when you are reading a series for a long while and then you have to stop reading for a new character.

[Karl O'Neill]

Rucka is big news in the comics industry. I'll be getting this comic even though i don't really like batwoman.

[Duy]

Willaims isnt a favorite but Rucka is a fav. Normally i would read this run only for him. But i dont need it right now. Im trying to catch up to other Bat character,stories i like.


A year ago i might have tried it just because of the creators as usual. But these days my pull is smaller than you cant try something you dont find interesting.

If the idea isnt interesting to you then the creators cant sell the story to you.

As you can see my pull im not the kind of a superhero fan who buys everything with Batman name in it.


P.S Hold the arrogant go somewhere else where Dini writes. Not that easy when you are reading a series for a long while and then you have to stop reading for a new character.
It's not arrogance, sir. I just don't understand this, so please explain it to me.

Paul Dini writes 'Tec. Paul Dini leaves 'Tec, then goes to, say, Batman. What's "not that easy" about dropping 'Tec and just getting Batman?

Question: If Dini and Nguyen left 'Tec, and Batman kept going as 'Tec's lead character, would you stay?

[Libaax]

It's not arrogance, sir. I just don't understand this, so please explain it to me.

Paul Dini writes 'Tec. Paul Dini leaves 'Tec, then goes to, say, Batman. What's "not that easy" about dropping 'Tec and just getting Batman?

Question: If Dini and Nguyen left 'Tec, and Batman kept going as 'Tec's lead character, would you stay?


Sure its easy to follow Dini to another comic. But its not easy seeing the writer who made Tec awesome for many months leave. Thats what i meant.



I would keep Tec if Batman was still starring. Thats why i read Batman comics. Of course i wouldnt be reading if Winnick wrote it or something. Thats the reason i dont read GM's Batman anymore.

Creators are important but if the new writer doesnt suck you stay with your favorite characters.

You cant become loyal to favorite creators when you dont start with the characters you like. I didnt even know what Tec and who Dini was before i tried it cause it was Bat book nr.2.

[nepenthes]

^ you stopped making sense a long time ago :cool:

[Duy]

Sure its easy to follow Dini to another comic. But its not easy seeing the writer who made Tec awesome for many months leave. Thats what i meant.



I would keep Tec if Batman was still starring. Thats why i read Batman comics. Of course i wouldnt be reading if Winnick wrote it or something. Thats the reason i dont read GM's Batman anymore.

Creators are important but if the new writer doesnt suck you stay with your favorite characters.

You cant become loyal to favorite creators when you dont start with the characters you like. I didnt even know what Tec and who Dini was before i tried it cause it was Bat book nr.2.

I take it you haven't been reading comics for very long? Because one thing I've learned is that if you follow a character long enough, the run ends up sucking.

For me, creators are more important. I admire Greg Rucka, and I would read anything JH Williams III drew. Without this mentality, something like Desolation Jones would have never sold. Hell, without the "creator-first" mentality, 95% of Alan Moore's products would have never sold.

Just my $.02

[Tony Bang]

Why is Williams' art being wasted on Rucka? Ugh.

One of my friend asked me if I would buy Green Lantern: Rebirth if Quietly drew it. This is working at the same principal. Can I put up with Rucka's writing to see Williams' art? It shall be fun to see.

EDIT: To tell the truth, I do have to first three issues of Rebirth. I have that much of a fake man crush on Hal Jordan.

[Joe Rice]

One of my friend asked me if I would buy Green Lantern: Rebirth if Quietly drew it. This is working at the same principal. Can I put up with Rucka's writing to see Williams' art? It shall be fun to see.

EDIT: To tell the truth, I do have to first three issues of Rebirth. I have that much of a fake man crush on Hal Jordan.

A lot of people find themselves in your position vis a vis that series. Kid Omega had a brilliant dissection of that work based on his love of Hal.

God, thanks for giving me the Quitely Rebirth nightmare. I SHALL NEVER SLEEP AGAIN.

[Captain Jim]

its not easy seeing the writer who made Tec awesome for many months leave.

It happens. Besides, Rucka made Detective awesome long before Dini came on board.

[Libaax]

I take it you haven't been reading comics for very long? Because one thing I've learned is that if you follow a character long enough, the run ends up sucking.

For me, creators are more important. I admire Greg Rucka, and I would read anything JH Williams III drew. Without this mentality, something like Desolation Jones would have never sold. Hell, without the "creator-first" mentality, 95% of Alan Moore's products would have never sold.

Just my $.02

I have been reading American comics only since 2005.

For me creators are more important too. Look at my pull. You can say its Brubaker,Kirkman and some vertigo,cosmic marvel,Jonah Hex.

I have read any Ennis,Brubaker,Frank Miller,Mignolia,Sale,Phillips,Lark etc

Batman is the reason i started reading superhero so i have been a fan of his both series for 3,4 years straight. I have read Winnick, actually thats when i became a fan so i learned not to focus only your favorite character. Thats why i dumped Batman Main because i didnt like GM version.

I like Rucka alot too. But i cant force myself on a character i dont find interesting. Thats why i stay away X-book despite Brubaker. Flash,Superman etc when favorite creators does them.

I think Batman,Nightwing,Daredevil are the only superheroes i will read to the last second before the books sucks too much. So losing Tec isnt a real problem. I will just wait,read other Bat family books and wait for Dini.

[carabas]

I like Rucka alot too. But i cant force myself on a character i dont find interesting. Thats why i stay away X-book despite Brubaker. Flash,Superman etc when favorite creators does them.
I have zero interest in Norman Osborn and the Thunderbolts, and actively despise Venom. But if Waren ellis wants to write a supervillain team book, I'm going to read it. He even made me sort of like Venom.

Captain America? Used to be in my personal top 10 of the most boring, bland characters ever devised. But Brubaker made Captain America one of my favourite books.

Batwoman? We haven't really seen nearly enough of her to even make an informed decision whether she is interesting or not. But it's Rucka and Williams III. They'd make even a Red Hulk book worthwhile.

[Libaax]

I have zero interest in Norman Osborn and the Thunderbolts, and actively despise Venom. But if Waren ellis wants to write a supervillain team book, I'm going to read it. He even made me sort of like Venom.

Captain America? Used to be in my personal top 10 of the most boring, bland characters ever devised. But Brubaker made Captain America one of my favourite books.

Batwoman? We haven't really seen nearly enough of her to even make an informed decision whether she is interesting or not. But it's Rucka and Williams III. They'd make even a Red Hulk book worthwhile.


The difference for me is that i never bothered to read Cap but i thought about the idea and Brubaker was a good excuse. So i bought into the idea of Cap before reading.

Batwoman belongs to the other cases on things i wouldnt read.

If there were only one Batgirl and no one else i would try her. Batwoman isnt just needed IMO.

The same reason i hate even the idea of Spider-woman when i actually read,cared about Spider-Man. Same reason i stayed away from She-Hulk for so long.

Every famous hero doesnt fricking need a female version of him.

[Flâneur]

The difference for me is that i never bothered to read Cap but i thought about the idea and Brubaker was a good excuse. So i bought into the idea of Cap before reading.

Batwoman belongs to the other cases on things i wouldnt read.

If there were only one Batgirl and no one else i would try her. Batwoman isnt just needed IMO.

The same reason i hate even the idea of Spider-woman when i actually read,cared about Spider-Man. Same reason i stayed away from She-Hulk for so long.

Every famous hero doesnt fricking need a female version of him.
Spider Woman has nothing to do with Spider-man, you know. Not the Jessica Drew one, not the Julie Carpenter one and not Veranke. She's (whichever of those you're referring to) not a 'female version' of Spider-man at all and the name isn't a reference to Spider-man, it's a reference to a spider.