Is the Phoenix a Metaphor for Genocide?

[darknessatnoon]

In the past, I have claimed that the Phoenix was a metaphor for the female orgasm. Professor Xavier simple would not let Jean unleash her sexuality. Lately, I've come to think that the figure of Jean Grey is polyvalent (that is, she coincides with numerous meanings). She seems to stand for unrestrained female sexuality and sexual determination, as well as vampirism. I also think the metaphor of "burning away what does not work" references the Holocaust.

Consider that Jean has often theorized that her power compels her to "burn away what doesn't work," which to me sounds like eugenics.

In Here Comes Tomorrow, Jean expunges an entire species of Insect People. In The Dark Phoenix Saga, she kills the d'Bari as well. In X-Man, she ruled an alternate universe UK Empire that waged an imperialist war against the Chinese. When traveling to the 616, she destroyed a city in Mexico and executed a Mexican child under Nate Grey's nose.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/racist1.jpg
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/racist2.jpg

I'd honestly like to hear what people think about all this.

[worstblogever]

Hate to spoil the fun right out of the gate... but isn't that "Queen Jean", the evil alternate reality Jean Grey who killed and impersonated Madelyne Pryor to mess with Nate Grey?

[drwho]

Hate to spoil the fun right out of the gate... but isn't that "Queen Jean", the evil alternate reality Jean Grey who killed and impersonated Madelyne Pryor to mess with Nate Grey?

how could ellis think this was a remotely good idea? bleeh no wonder the series got canceled.

[MartinRedmond]

If you say so, it has to be true.

[darknessatnoon]

Hate to spoil the fun right out of the gate... but isn't that "Queen Jean", the evil alternate reality Jean Grey who killed and impersonated Madelyne Pryor to mess with Nate Grey?

Thank you, my erudite WBE. It is the Red Queen. She is 'a Jean Grey.'

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/WhatisaJeanGrey1.jpg
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/WhatisaJeanGrey2-1.jpg

[drwho]

wow i never knew nate grey wore a kilt.

[AcesX1X]

Hate to spoil the fun right out of the gate... but isn't that "Queen Jean", the evil alternate reality Jean Grey who killed and impersonated Madelyne Pryor to mess with Nate Grey?

queen jean made the claim that all jeans are the same.

we know that jean cannot control her temper. queen jean has simply given in to hers.

it does not change the fact that queen jean is still jean. it is just a facet of jean's personality that has not been explored in the 616. maddie is the closest representation of that trait.

just because 616 jean did not murder a town full of mexicans does not mean she does not have the potential.

'queen jean' is just a vehicle. it is the things under the hood that we are exploring here.

[Flâneur]

This provokes a thought.

Could Rachel's friendship with Kitty have motives? The baby phoenix must start out small, after all.

[Waterlily]

Hate to spoil the fun right out of the gate... but isn't that "Queen Jean", the evil alternate reality Jean Grey who killed and impersonated Madelyne Pryor to mess with Nate Grey?

how could ellis think this was a remotely good idea? bleeh no wonder the series got canceled.

This sounds interesting, was this found in the X-Man series?

She still counts as Jean, even if she's from an alternate reality. As for whether or not Phoenix is a metaphor.... I'll have to think that over some more.

[MartinRedmond]

wow i never knew nate grey wore a kilt.

More like a destroyed evening gown.

[worstblogever]

Well, it could end up being that the Phoenix represents genocide. As has been stated, the Phoenix burns away what doesn't work.

7.6 % of America are jobless (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29050656/). Multiply that by the population of the U.S., 303,824,640 ...

And we're talking about 23,090,672 people who don't work.

Thus, for not working, the Phoenix would burn away an excess of 23 million people, which is genocide. A small number compared to the 5 billion D'Bari, but hey, whatever. It's 3 times the number of people killed on Genosha. Definitely genocide.

[Prodigy55]

I bet if Phoenix farted it would cause an explosion.

[AcesX1X]

This provokes a thought.

Could Rachel's friendship with Kitty have motives? The baby phoenix must start out small, after all.

interesting. are you speculating a "keep your enemies closer" type of situation with rachel?

[Flâneur]

Thus, for not working, the Phoenix would burn away an excess of 23 million people, which is genocide. A small number compared to the 5 billion D'Bari, but hey, whatever. It's 3 times the number of people killed on Genosha. Definitely genocide.
The D'Bari are nothing. You forget the entire galaxy of people who committed suicide thanks to having seen Ultimate Jean fly by.

[Flâneur]

interesting. are you speculating a "keep your enemies closer" type of situation with rachel?
Indeed. Rachel kept things basic. Jean may be genocide but Rachel is an abortion.

[AcesX1X]

Indeed. Rachel kept things basic. Jean may be genocide but Rachel is an abortion.

swashbuckler has noted and evidenced that the timestream has attempted to abort rachel on several occasions.

i'd also like to explore cyclops' behavior as it relates to this phoenix metaphor as well.

ever since here comes tomorrow, cyclops has taken a more aggressive attitude towards his goals and obstacles.

do you remember - jean remade the planet and 'pushed' cyclops and emma back together.

since then, cyclops has taken on a more 'macro' level of thinking.

now, he uses x-force to get rid of unpleasant things. in effect, he is 'burning away what doesn't work' through the use of x-force.

is cyclops jean's new proxy while she tans in the white hot room? did she impart her legacy/prejudice against others onto him?

[Gene M.]

I'm pretty sure she crossed the line between metaphor and literal representation of genocide when she started wiping out entire species.

[darknessatnoon]

I'm pretty sure she crossed the line between metaphor and literal representation of genocide when she started wiping out entire species.

LOL

That's a really good point. I was just treading very carefully around the Jean fans. Too carefully, I suppose.

[Charybdis4]

I'm pretty sure she crossed the line between metaphor and literal representation of genocide when she started wiping out entire species.

Yeah but come on - they were only brocolli people. It was the equivalent of popping them in a saucepan for a 5 minute simmer....

[Henry T.]

I think "burning away what doesn't work" includes both benevolent and malevolent actions.

It could mean healing (fixing the M'Kraan Crystal or disinfecting Sublime and regrowing another future) or it could mean destroying (D'Bari, Termids, HCT future).

I think Morrison wanted to move Jean away from Claremont's view of the Phoenix as an agent of creation and more toward an agent of evolution.

I also think that Morrison wanted to make the Dark Phoenix an aspect of Jean's natural role without her being evil or insane. The Phoenix is beyond human morality. To her killing simply means absorbing beings into the White Hot Room.

So yeah you can look at it from a eugenics/genocide point of view because Jean sometimes destroys species that are an evolutionary dead end but she also has a higher purpose that is dictated by destiny.

But most of the time she does save and protect rather than destroy.

Genocide was kind of a theme in Morrison's book too. Cassandra had the mutants on Genosha killed. She tried to get the Shiar to kill all mutants. Magneto/Xorn mass killed humans and even marched them into crematoriums. Jean of course exterminated the Termids.

[AcesX1X]

So yeah you can look at it from a eugenics/genocide point of view because Jean sometimes destroys species that are an evolutionary dead end but she also has a higher purpose that is dictated by destiny.
.

what do you think you are saying about mexicans in this statement?

[Flâneur]

I think "burning away what doesn't work" includes both benevolent and malevolent actions.
I've heard the Phoenix doesn't just burn, she bleaches too.

[darknessatnoon]

I think "burning away what doesn't work" includes both benevolent and malevolent actions.

It could mean healing (fixing the M'Kraan Crystal or disinfecting Sublime and regrowing another future) or it could mean destroying (D'Bari, Termids, HCT future).

I think Morrison wanted to move Jean away from Claremont's view of the Phoenix as an agent of creation and more toward an agent of evolution.

I also think that Morrison wanted to make the Dark Phoenix an aspect of Jean's natural role without her being evil or insane. The Phoenix is beyond human morality. To her killing simply means absorbing beings into the White Hot Room.

So yeah you can look at it from a eugenics/genocide point of view because Jean sometimes destroys species that are an evolutionary dead end but she also has a higher purpose that is dictated by destiny.

But most of the time she does save and protect rather than destroy.

Genocide was kind of a theme in Morrison's book too. Cassandra had the mutants on Genosha killed. She tried to get the Shiar to kill all mutants. Magneto/Xorn mass killed humans and even marched them into crematoriums. Jean of course exterminated the Termids.

Basically, you are saying that Jean Grey practices "ethical genocide."

[Swashbuckler]

swashbuckler has noted and evidenced that the timestream has attempted to abort rachel on several occasions.


I wonder if the Phoenix force is embarassed to have gone to Rachel partially after doing so well at killing all those broccoli people. I mean, it went from scross over super-star and shi'ar legend to mullet girl with cry-baby tendencies.

[Prodigy55]

Phoenix is not genocidal.
It is efficient.
The universe can't sustain random brocolli people.
She was doing us all a favour by eliminating them.

[darknessatnoon]

I am no historian (where is Kiplingkat?), but I recall that the symbol for the nazi party (not the swastika) was an Eagle. Some believe it represented a mythical bird.

http://pcdocli.ho8.com/nazi_eagle.jpg

This is the symbol Rachel wears over her eye.

Also, after the Civil War, the slogan for the south was "the South will rise again." What bird "rises again?" Slavery and the middle passage were genocidal acts.

[AcesX1X]

I am no historian (where is Kiplingkat?)


speaking of kiplingkat, should it be considered poetic justice/irony that magneto is the one who killed jean last?

[timbox]

Basically, you are saying that Jean Grey practices "ethical genocide."

I see it more about worth than ethics. The D'Bari and Termids had nothing to offer the universe; the Phoenix gives them the opportunity to begin life anew.

[Josef F.]

Interestingly, Whilst Rachel Grey was the phoenix.
A whole alternate universe of Genocidal Excalibur-Nazis came to try and kill her.
Including Nazi-Jew-Ghost Kitty Pryde.

Perhaps they did not like Phoenix stppin' on their coat-tails.
R'chel was the weak link.
Could they finally be the best at genocide?

FOOD FOR THOUGHT

[Anodyne]

Thank you, my erudite WBE. It is the Red Queen. She is 'a Jean Grey.'

queen jean made the claim that all jeans are the same.
Steven Grant, who wrote the Counter-X X-Man, said on another message board the "Queen Jean" was kicked out of her reality around the time of Uncanny X-Men #137. Make of that what you will.
Yeah but come on - they were only brocolli people. It was the equivalent of popping them in a saucepan for a 5 minute simmer....
Species-ist. The D'Bari had a functioning civilization when the Phoenix destroyed them. Saying they "didn't work" sounds to me like rationalization after the fact. I believe the term for what Phoenix did is "reckless disregard" for the lives of others: she just didn't care if there were people on that planet when she blew up their sun to sate her hunger. The D'Bari were merely "collateral damage" to her.

[darknessatnoon]

Steven Grant, who wrote the Counter-X X-Man, said on another message board the "Quen Jean" was kicked out of her reality'around the time of Uncanny X-Men #137.


Whoa! Do you have a link for this? Are you saying that she was the "Jean Grey" killed on the moon?

[Henry T.]

Basically, you are saying that Jean Grey practices "ethical genocide."

Yeah. Its all crazy fiction. In one story they had Jean build towers in the afterlife for the D'Bari and Shiar that she killed. From her perspective they continue to exist on a higher plane of reality. For example, she described killing Bumbleboy as absorbing him into the WHR.

Jean's human side still feels bad about this part of her role though. She brings heart and soul to the role of the Phoenix.

I think since Morrison compared the WHR to a hospital, the Phoenix could be compared to doctors or even white blood cells.

Of course, in real life genocide is always wrong.

[Stephen Moreno]

I am no historian (where is Kiplingkat?), but I recall that the symbol for the nazi party (not the swastika) was an Eagle. Some believe it represented a mythical bird.

http://pcdocli.ho8.com/nazi_eagle.jpg

This is the symbol Rachel wears over her eye.

Also, after the Civil War, the slogan for the south was "the South will rise again." What bird "rises again?" Slavery and the middle passage were genocidal acts.

I have to say that this is kind of interesting theory, both bird's represent genocide. the Phoenix's slogan "Burning away what doesn't work" could be applied to any of the current genocides that are taking place in the continent of Africa. Hitler himself believed that through the elimination of the Jewish population the true Aryan race could prosper. You could say Hitler was taking away what doesn't work in order to make something better. It's a disgusting thought but does the Phoenix not stand for that?

I enjoy thought provoking threads like this. Well done. Controversial as it maybe, it is much better than the 99th Appreciation thread.

[timbox]

The D'Bari were merely "collateral damage" to her.

They were not chosen at random. The Phoenix determined them to be the most worthy of collateral damage status.

[Charybdis4]

I've heard the Phoenix doesn't just burn, she bleaches too.

Fabulous!! :smile:

[kometman]

*laughs* I never thought of it that way. I honestly don't think they ever planned it that way, but I guess everyone has their own interpretation of things.

[Henry T.]

Phoenix committing genocide...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/dp2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/nm1532.jpg

[Stephen Moreno]

It is scans like that that make me thankful Jean Grey is gone.

[XaviersMisprint]

Phoenix committing genocide...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/dp2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/nm1532.jpg

I LOOOOOOVE BUMBLEBOY.

Many a fan-fiction have I written about him. Did you know that Bumbleboy has actually been alive forhundreds of years, with an extended lifespan? His lifespan is the span of a bee's, multiplied by the size of his body, which is quite a bit bigger than a bee. Did you know the stingers on his wrist are retractable, as are his wings? However, his bug eyes are a constant. Did you know he got that helmet on his head from his grandfather who fought in Vietnam? He shops at American Apparel? He can communicate with bees? He is homosexual? He still looks 15, even after decades? And he joined the X-Men after the NXM kids already graduated and are in their 20's?

[Michael Sean]

The phoenix made her do it.

[Prodigy55]

You should all respect Jean Grey and the Phoenix.
They burn away the useless excess of the universe.
Think of them as an intense cardio work-out.

[Henry T.]

Explaining the Phoenix's role...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/000305yr.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/00031tsd.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/newxmen148pyrate12hl1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/20iy1-1.jpg

[Stephen Moreno]

Can you please stop posting scans of things we already know, we all know about Jean Grey, we all know her role, we all have seen this. She is an unpleasant dues ex machine and the less she appears in comics, the better.

[alf_to_the_rescue]

Can you please stop posting scans of things we already know, we all know about Jean Grey, we all know her role, we all have seen this. She is an unpleasant dues ex machine and the less she appears in comics, the better.

Henry T is simply trying to educate others on Jean Grey's role in the omniverse. It is required reading.

[Flâneur]

Can you please stop posting scans of things we already know, we all know about Jean Grey, we all know her role, we all have seen this. She is an unpleasant dues ex machine and the less she appears in comics, the better.

Agreed. I, like Madelyne, am so disgusted by Jean's visage that I consider suicide. I don't think I can deal with any more images of her.

[Stephen Moreno]

What is the difference between the babies Jean Grey has killed and the baby Bishop wants to kill? Why is Jean loved for it and Bishop is hated?

[Josef F.]

So Jean's mutant power is "To host the Phoenix".
I am learned.

[Excelsior]

The Phoenix is obviously a male interpretation of Feminine power. The ability to bring life into this plane of existence, and man's fear that women may have the power to reverse this genetic miracle (The metaphor of Genocide-The ability to end all life when a person chooses...thus is manifested in comic form..in a cosmic Abortion)

Much like Messiah Complex was a metaphor of becoming a lesser minority. Which in the context of the storyline worked, if one were to ignore the fact most minorities except the fact they are the lesser numbered populace. One can only assume this is a majority view of what a class of minorities would do in lue of such radical changes.

[Prodigy55]

Henry T is simply trying to educate others on Jean Grey's role in the omniverse. It is required reading.

Thank you alf_to_the_rescue
Jean Grey is essential to the continued survival of everything useful.

[Prodigy55]

What is the difference between the babies Jean Grey has killed and the baby Bishop wants to kill? Why is Jean loved for it and Bishop is hated?

Jean killed useless life forms.
She alleviated the stress that their existence put on the omniverse.

[timbox]

What is the difference between the babies Jean Grey has killed and the baby Bishop wants to kill? Why is Jean loved for it and Bishop is hated?

The Phoenix is higher on the food chain; it's like us killing cows in order to sustain life. It has the added bonus of bringing balance to the universe and perpetuating the evolutionary process.

Bishop is a psychopathic killer who was brainwashed by an evil grandmother and it killing only to further his own agenda.

Big difference.

[AcesX1X]

thanks for bringing bishop into this.

i think it's fascinating that he's currently after that "red-headed monster" named hope, who may or may not be linked to the phoenix somehow.

although, if she is, i would begin worrying if i were an aboriginal.

jean tends to take her frustrations out on the masses, not the individual.

[Excelsior]

What is the difference between the babies Jean Grey has killed and the baby Bishop wants to kill? Why is Jean loved for it and Bishop is hated?

Good question. It speaks to a reader's mentality of who could be redeemed and who can not. Learned bad associations would be the culprit I would view as the main source of the disconnect.

[darknessatnoon]

Back on track:

If I remember my Excalibur correctly, every time Rachel uses her powers unborn babies are killed.

[darknessatnoon]

Bishop is a psychopathic killer who was brainwashed by an evil grandmother and it killing only to further his own agenda.



Interestingly, Storm is Jean's best friend.

[The Thunderbird]

The burning away what doesn't work concept is wrong and needs to be retconned. Just one race on one small little planet would not do anything to the universe. That's equivalent to saying some plain old tribe out on a little island in the Pacific can become a threat to the entire Earth. The Kree don't evolve and they're not a threat to the cosmic balance. The D'Bari have been around for quite a while (One individual has been around since the days on ancient Greece). They can outlive Yoda and despite their tremendous lifespan, their world still only has a population smaller than Earth. A slowly reproducing race does not threaten the vast cosmos.

[insidemyhead]

I have to say that this is kind of interesting theory, both bird's represent genocide. the Phoenix's slogan "Burning away what doesn't work" could be applied to any of the current genocides that are taking place in the continent of Africa. Hitler himself believed that through the elimination of the Jewish population the true Aryan race could prosper. You could say Hitler was taking away what doesn't work in order to make something better. It's a disgusting thought but does the Phoenix not stand for that?

Arbeit macht frei?

[AcesX1X]

The burning away what doesn't work concept is wrong and needs to be retconned. Just one race on one small little planet would not do anything to the universe. That's equivalent to saying some plain old tribe out on a little island in the Pacific can become a threat to the entire Earth. The Kree don't evolve and they're not a threat to the cosmic balance. The D'Bari have been around for quite a while (One individual has been around since the days on ancient Greece). They can outlive Yoda and despite their tremendous lifespan, their world still only has a population smaller than Earth. A slowly reproducing race does not threaten the vast cosmos.

no. you are completely and laughably wrong, and have obviously forgotten the age of apocalypse when legion killed xavier instead of magneto.

[Daithi]

Back on track:

If I remember my Excalibur correctly, every time Rachel uses her powers unborn babies are killed.

Everytime "The Phoenix" users her powers unborn babies die. The Phoenix is Jean of course and needs to stay "in her natural state" i.e. dead/WHR bound in order for unborn babies not to die.

Rachel just taps into the power which is A-OK according to Galactus (who would make an awesome addition to the Uncanny Fringe Science team).

[The Thunderbird]

Thank you, my erudite WBE. It is the Red Queen. She is 'a Jean Grey.'
[/IMG]
Does this mean that Colossus is gay, Beast is a sadistic sociopath that expriements on other mutants, and Iron Man is Sorcerer Supreme?

[Josef F.]

Does this mean that Colossus is gay, Beast is a sadistic sociopath that expriements on other mutants, and Iron Man is Sorcerer Supreme?

No, as "A jean grey" encompasses all Jeans.
It is like saying "A colossus is usually able to turn into metal"

Confusion lifted.

[Waterlily]

Henry T is simply trying to educate others on Jean Grey's role in the omniverse. It is required reading.

I have been educated. Thank you Henry T.

Why does everyone call the D'Bari broccoli people when the look more like Kappas (without the flat head)?

Everytime "The Phoenix" users her powers unborn babies die. The Phoenix is Jean of course and needs to stay "in her natural state" i.e. dead/WHR bound in order for unborn babies not to die.

Rachel just taps into the power which is A-OK according to Galactus (who would make an awesome addition to the Uncanny Fringe Science team).

Is this a joke or is this for real?

[Daithi]

Is this a joke or is this for real?

The truth according to Galactus.

[darknessatnoon]

Is this a joke or is this for real?

No. This was a real storyline. When Rachel goes all Phoenixy, she kills life that hasn't been born yet.

[Cruelly_Innocent]

The Phoenix is higher on the food chain; it's like us killing cows in order to sustain life. It has the added bonus of bringing balance to the universe and perpetuating the evolutionary process.

Bishop is a psychopathic killer who was brainwashed by an evil grandmother and it killing only to further his own agenda.
Big difference.

If we don't kill the cows the cows will kill us :wink: ?

Nah..what phoenix did there was a temper tantrum and she just put an excuse after she (Oh I mean..the phoenix...bc when Jean does something is good and she f-s up it's inmediatly the phoenix taking over :rolleyes: ) did it.

So? the phoenix is controlling Jean bc it also has an agenda...both for the "greater good" and evolution, but only Bishop (who I detest) is gettin crap



Jean killed useless life forms.
She alleviated the stress that their existence put on the omniverse.

Yeah, sure...Jean is brilliant, she didn't went nuts and then notice that she had just killed an entire planet.

Just retcon the bloody bird and let Jean be Jean so we can blame her for her mistakes and praise her good actions :cool:

[darknessatnoon]

Jean Grey is a bird, though. That is her mutant power. Jean Grey commits genocide.

Confusion lifted.

[Daithi]

No. This was a real storyline. When Rachel goes all Phoenixy, she kills life that hasn't been born yet.

It is not Rachel. It is the Phoenix. When Galactus talks to The Phoenix it acknowledges that it has once consumed a sun and destroyed the planet nearby.

[SkinFromBone]

Phoenix is a demon that preys on Jean Greys because they're easy to courrupt and steal souls with. The worst Jean even runs the phoenix hell dimension.

Also, I like the crazy queen jean.

[doctortherift]

The Phoenix could be a metaphor for both the female orgasm and genocide, at the same time. The creators are obviously sexist.

[Josef F.]

It is not Rachel. It is the Phoenix. When Galactus talks to The Phoenix it acknowledges that it has once consumed a sun and destroyed the planet nearby.

I thought it was made canon that Jean grey was the phoenix?

[Daithi]

I thought it was made canon that Jean grey was the phoenix?

I'm not arguing with that.

[Anodyne]

Whoa! Do you have a link for this? Are you saying that she was the "Jean Grey" killed on the moon?
Sorry, it was 8 or 9 years ago, and I'm not even sure the website still exists. I thought it might be rec.arts.comic.marvel.xbooks, but I haven't found it there; I'll keep searching

Grant never spelled out what he meant. My take is that he was messing with our minds by hinting of a connection between Queen Jean and Dark Phoenix. An alternate reality or "What If" maybe?

Then there's this:
http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldauto=3616]
Writer Steven Grant mentioned that (he) intended to hint that “Queen Maddie” was actually a depowered Dark Phoenix (namely the one from the 616 universe), but that idea was shot down, presumably because the Phoenix mythos is already complicated enough.

[Waterlily]

The truth according to Galactus.

No. This was a real storyline. When Rachel goes all Phoenixy, she kills life that hasn't been born yet.

It is not Rachel. It is the Phoenix. When Galactus talks to The Phoenix it acknowledges that it has once consumed a sun and destroyed the planet nearby.

So, when Rachel invokes the power of the Phoenix, the Phoenix kills unborn babies. But since Rachel is the host, would she be considered an accomplice, completely responsible, or hapless?


Back on topic, I'd have to agree with what Gene said earlier, it's no longer a metaphor when genocide has actually occured. The orgasm metaphor still stands, though. And what's this Mexican vampire theory, if I may ask?

[Josef F.]

I'm not arguing with that.

So every time jean did any display of power. . .she killed unborn babies?

Error 101010010101

[Waterlily]

I thought it was made canon that Jean grey was the phoenix?

So it's Jean that's feeding on newborn babies? And she's using Rachel to do so? I bet she blames this on the Phoenix as well.

[Daithi]

So every time jean did any display of power. . .she killed unborn babies?

Error 101010010101

Er from what I've read it is this

If the Phoenix is alive in the universe then it uses the "universe's lifeforce" to sustain itself which prevents new life from occurring (killing unborn babies, etc).

If the Phoenix is in it's natural state (i.e not "alive" and feeling up Wolverine) that's fine and a Phoenix host just taps into the Phoenix power but doesn't use the universe lifeforce.

[darknessatnoon]

Er from what I've read it is this

If the Phoenix is alive in the universe then it uses the "universe's lifeforce" to sustain itself which prevents new life from occurring (killing unborn babies, etc).

If the Phoenix is in it's natural state (i.e not "alive" and feeling up Wolverine) that's fine and a Phoenix host just taps into the Phoenix power but doesn't use the universe lifeforce.

Abortion is also a holocaust.

[gorthon616]

What exactly is the point of this metaphor? Metaphors are not objective nor substantive. They are subjective and conceptual. Therein, the bald assertion that "the Phoenix is a metaphor for genocide" is not inherently useful or instructional. It's sort of like if I said "Beef is like Pork." I mean, yeah I guess it is. But so what?

Are you trying to say that Jean is guilty of genocide? Is your extrapolation of her as being both a symbol of sexual liberation and genocide, evidencing that sexual liberation is an inherently destructive direction? Are you not making any claim of meaning here, but rather to suggest that this is the hidden language that Chris Claremont was trying to infuse philosophical agenda into his readers? I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here, unless this is meant to just be a stream-of-consciousness thing.

[darknessatnoon]

unless this is meant to just be a stream-of-consciousness thing.

like your post?

[Tracer Bullet]

She's a metaphor for something she's committed? That's like saying a gunman is a metaphor for murder.

[darknessatnoon]

She's a metaphor for something she's committed?

Questions are a burden to others.

[doctortherift]

What exactly is the point of this metaphor? Metaphors are not objective nor substantive. They are subjective and conceptual. Therein, the bald assertion that "the Phoenix is a metaphor for genocide" is not inherently useful or instructional. It's sort of like if I said "Beef is like Pork." I mean, yeah I guess it is. But so what?

Are you trying to say that Jean is guilty of genocide? Is your extrapolation of her as being both a symbol of sexual liberation and genocide, evidencing that sexual liberation is an inherently destructive direction? Are you not making any claim of meaning here, but rather to suggest that this is the hidden language that Chris Claremont was trying to infuse philosophical agenda into his readers? I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here, unless this is meant to just be a stream-of-consciousness thing.

http://i42.tinypic.com/1qimop.gif

[Tracer Bullet]

No kidding.

[Anodyne]

Er from what I've read it is this

If the Phoenix is alive in the universe then it uses the "universe's lifeforce" to sustain itself which prevents new life from occurring (killing unborn babies, etc.
That seems more like contraception than abortion to me.

[Bingo!]

This thread is fun and imaginative, and full of fanfic.

[Slung]

Can you please stop posting scans of things we already know, we all know about Jean Grey, we all know her role, we all have seen this. She is an unpleasant dues ex machine and the less she appears in comics, the better.

You sir, are now on my "un-cool" list.

Agreed. I, like Madelyne, am so disgusted by Jean's visage that I consider suicide. I don't think I can deal with any more images of her.

Hmmm...some of these people used to be people I loved. They seemed to have turned against me...

Et tu, Flanny?

[The Black Guardian]

Petty mortals and their foolish concepts of death. They know not of what they speak. The Phoenix is an instrument of creation!

[Raptor]

I don't think Jean or the Phoenix Force isa metaphor for anything in the MU. The writers make you look for it and in that I suppose it is a metaphor to the reader. Not to the Marvel Universe. All the signs thus far seem to point to Phoenix being an instrument of destruction. Though what hashte power to use hte Phoenix as an insturment.

I suppose. "The Lord giveth and taketh away" is applicable tothose of you who have read the cannon of the religion that phrase hails from" Is that not done in love though?

It more seems this Force, since calling it a deity would be improper as well as insulting, is simply the embodiement of Love.

Hear me out.

To save something you care about, you have to cut things off from it. Sometiems people and things get hurt. Somethings are removed entirely.

This Force seems to merely supoorthte future of all existence, roughly called life.

The Phoenix is the essence Life yes? Well then, to cause other things to live some must die. Its not so much efficiency. I think of it more as an imperative. It may be genocide that Phoenix exacts. It is also saving so much more. I suppose one has to look at the grand scheme to see it.

I don't consider myself capable of understanding what a cosmic being would think. Nor do I consider myself capable of wrapping my brain around complete non existence. I think that is what the Phoenix is trying to stave off.

In order to kill and therefore save "x" amoutn of life, various pieces of energy, about to be born must be used/sacrficed and used to fuel said power. "Jean/Rachel kills babies to use powers".

For there to be evil, good must exist and vice versa, life and death, dark and light. Phoenix simply has no need of a similar enitity to kep it in check, it usually keeps itself in check.

I confess until this threadI hated all thigns Phoenix. I find myself enjoying theharsh facts of life it makes people think about. I think I became a Jean fan as I read this. Well a Phoenix fan anyhow. Whether it is housed in Rachel, Emma, the Cuckoos or anyone else.

As much as it is an element of female power and sexuality it sems to be an aspect of love as well. Jean used the power or was a conduit, depending on your interpretation, to keep Scott safe, and to make Scott happy. Evil Jeans have used it to manipulate. Emotion itself casued the Phoenix to fall out fo balance....Did it? Was the Dark Phoenix really evil, or just showing a less oft seen aspect, like hte moon going through phases?

Any Force that seems to transcends emotion and time and mortal thought, can't be totally understood. I think the writers are trying to get people to see it as something so alien the motives may never be understood. Things that will leave comic geeks sitting in their homes reading and thinking about, and posting about until no more comics are made or senility sets in. It strikes me as any philosophy really. This one happens to stem from X-Men comics.

Do the writers really know what it is? I hope not. That would be putting mortal limits on a creation that to me, is used to explain all mysteries given enough time. I hope they have created something they can't truly explain without cheapening it.

[timbox]

Marvel TV Galactus The Real Story comes out this week which will reveal Galactus to be a hoax engineered by the Phoenix.

[Godlike]

Very good thread.

I think it's all of those things you mentioned and more.

Genocide, Unlimited Power, Rebirth & Reincarnation, the Goddess, the personification of indiscriminately volatile Nature, the ineffable Spirit of Mankind in the vessell of Woman, the fire of passion and abandonment tempered by human nature, etc.

Jean Grey as Phoenix is not so much a character or a single unified metaphor representing any one thing - she is a Symbol.

However much sexual repression and the Xavier angle has to do with it I'm not sure - she was a married woman after all, and she did presumably have a sex life with Scott Summers.

[just another user]

Bump for Phoenix week.