CBR: Swierczynski on the "Times & Life" of Bishop

[CBR News]

With “X-Men: The Times and Life of Lucas Bishop� #1 in stores now, CBR speaks
with writer Duane Swierczynski about the miniseries that charts the life of the
former X-Man, and hints why he wants to kill a mutant messiah.


Full article here (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=19840).

[darknessatnoon]

I wonder of DS will settle this Aborigine matter.

[Xero]

So he wants to redeem a character, that wouldn't need redeeming if he had not ruined him? How does that work exactly? BTW the Koori are black, you don't have to be from Africa to be black. Many Koori and Maori consider themselves to be black.

Bishop was the only black male X-Man and now he's ruined, either replace him or kill him.

Sunspot and M bothy used to be black but Peter David decided M wasn't black anymore, and someone else decided there weren't any black Brazilians (I'm being sarcastic here).

[darknessatnoon]

So he wants to redeem a character, that wouldn't need redeeming if he had not ruined him? How does that work exactly?

Bishop was the only black male X-Man and now he's ruined, either replace him or kill him.

Sunspot and M bothy used to be black but Peter David decided M wasn't black anymore, and someone else decided there weren't any black Brazilians (I'm being sarcastic here).

M was never "black." She was always Algerian. They are only white people with tans.

[Zombiefol]

I was pretty interested in the mini-series when I first heard about it. The part about Stroman on art manged to slip by me. After the incoherent stint he had on X-Factor I'm going to skip this.

[Xero]

M was never "black." She was always Algerian. They are only white people with tans.

No actually you're wrong, there is a significant Tuareg (black) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg) population in Southern Algeria. Next time do your research.

[timbox]

Sunspot and M are both black. You don’t have to be from Africa to be black.

[darknessatnoon]

No actually you're wrong, there is a significant Tuareg (black) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg) population in Southern Algeria. Next time do your research.

"Monet" is not a name that primitive nomadic tribal savages give their kids. It's what half French, half Arab mutts get named. Next time get a clue.

[Xero]

...primitive nomadic tribal savages......

Really now, so the Tuaregs are savages? Why don't you stop now before you make it worse.

[jarrod]

Bishop was the only black male X-Man and now he's ruined, either replace him or kill him.
There's also Prodigy, Gentile and Storm.

[darknessatnoon]

Really now, so the Tuaregs are savages? Why don't you stop now before you make it worse.

Why don't you stop making a fool of yourself complaining about comics that haven't come out yet and the race of fictional people?

[Xero]

Why don't you stop making a fool of yourself complaining about comics that haven't come out yet and the race of fictional people?

Lets see, I disproved your initial statement about black Algerians, so your comeback was that Monet couldn't possible have any Tuareg origins because they were, and i'm paraphrasing here "ignorant savages".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you also arguing about the racial orgins of a fictional character and making a fool of yourself?

[darknessatnoon]

Lets see, I disproved your initial statement about black Algerians, so your comeback was that Monet couldn't possible have any Tuareg origins because they were ignorant savages.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you also arguing about the racial orgins of a fictional character and making a fool of yourself?

No. My comeback was that Monet isn't Tuareg because she's got a FRENCH NAME! Are you really that dense?

Now stop bitching. There are plenty of black characters. They're just mostly Cyborgs, not mutants.

[just another user]

Xero, you'd think for someone from "teh intarweb" you might know how this sort of thing works by now

[timbox]

Cyborgs are similar to Bishop. Neither have souls.

[americocaine]

strange they got stroman who worked on x-factor like whilce portacio who also drew the first appearacnce of bishop in the uncanny issues starting with 281. dare i say those stories seem to make more sense tha messiah complex?

[Stephen Moreno]

Why do they think Bishop needs redeeming? He's a villain now and he's so much more interesting that way.

[Xero]

Xero, you'd think for someone from "teh intarweb" you might know how this sort of thing works by now

You're absolutely right, at this point I'm just feeding him.

[supreme5]

Please, dont polute this thread with race. Thats want the other times and life of bishop thread is for.

[Bingo!]

I'm glad that Swierczynski did his research. I'd like to know how he'll weave this current incarnation of Bishop with the loyal, respectable one that hunted the X-Men's betrayer.

[Leirus]

Arghs. I hate when everything ends in a racial discussion.

Maybe should we clarify?

Black can mean dark skinned or African American

In America, as far I can tell, African American = Black, but also every person dark skinned gets confused with an African American, including Arabs, Mulatto, Hispanic, Amerindian people... Heck, American Soldiers thought Pancho Villa was Black (African American). Thus they are called "black". Most of the famous "black" people from america would be called mulatto in other places. Including Obama or Halle Berry. In brasil most of the people have some black blood, even if just a bit. But they are not classified as black (or as nothing) for that. So I think, the "Black/African American identity is something cultural from the states

But when a character is black = dark skinned, it should not mean automatically that he is African American in origin. Because there are other populations dark skinned who are not. Aborigins. Certain races from Indians. etc etc... I know that it may hurt and annoy when you think a character is from your minority and then turns out he is not (I should know, I am a fan of Iceman). But really, how many aboriginal characters do we have?

People from the north of Africa, by the way, have a big range of skin colour. Tuaregs are not black, in the sense used for African Americans descendent mainly from Sub-saharian slaves. They, in fact, are not even that dark skinned, either, but they live on a frigging desert. So, they tend to appear darker than they really are. Even if Monet were a Tuareg, she was born with a Cartier spoon in her mouth, in Monaco, so she would not look like a camel-rider nomad. Berebers tend to be frankly withish. Arabs in general can be really light or fairly dark. But they are not subsaharian.

Mm. My longest rant here. And the last one about races. But is frustrating to come back always to the same subject.

[Bingo!]

I'm glad that Swierczynski did his research. I'd like to know how he'll weave this current incarnation of Bishop with the loyal, respectable one that hunted the X-Men's betrayer.

Yes, Bingo!, yes.

Keeping on the topic at hand, Swierczynski is writing about Bishop's childhood, not the color of his skin.

[Leirus]

Yes, Bingo!, yes.

Keeping on the topic at hand, Swierczynski is writing about Bishop's childhood, not the color of his skin.

I know, sorries... The issue comes out today there, right? I do not exactly what time is it now in the states... There is time enough for spoilers today?

I wanna know if his grandmother is, as it looked like, Storm... (Or M)

[Lukecage]

Yes, Bingo!, yes.

Keeping on the topic at hand, Swierczynski is writing about Bishop's childhood, not the color of his skin.

Bishop is black!!! Okay, okay, I'm just joking. It'll be interesting to see them try and reclaim the initial portrayal of Bishop, from the one he has been morphed into now. To see if they can make him a sympathetic character, or if they can try and justify his current actions.

[Leirus]

Bishop is black!!! Okay, okay, I'm just joking. It'll be interesting to see them try and reclaim the initial portrayal of Bishop, from the one he has been morphed into now. To see if they can make him a sympathetic character, or if they can try and justify his current actions.

Ishh... I thought he could be justified up until he ripped the heart out of Cannonball and destroyed a whole world... I liked Bishop, but...

[Xero]

....Tuaregs are not black, in the sense used for African Americans descendent mainly from Sub-saharian slaves. They, in fact, are not even that dark skinned....

http://www.chronicpoverty.org/pubfiles/Tuareg%20men%20in%20Niger.jpg

Say what now?

[blehbeh]

I was always under impression that Ambassador St. Croix was a black African, and the mother was a brown skinned Algerian.

Anyhoo, with Bishop as an Aborigine, Synch and Bedlam dead, and Bling! having a body made out of purple stone no matter what her heritage, Prodigy is the only true "African- American" X-Man.

[rwsmith]

Ishh... I thought he could be justified up until he ripped the heart out of Cannonball and destroyed a whole world... I liked Bishop, but...

Yeah, but those actions don't count if he kills Hope and saves the future, because that future will never come to pass and thus he'll never have committed those actions. Except that he did. :confused:

I hate time travel... :evilangry:

[MarvelGirlBoy]

I'm really glad that black baby-killing tribes are getting representation in comics.

[Bingo!]

Yeah, but those actions don't count if he kills Hope and saves the future, because that future will never come to pass and thus he'll never have committed those actions. Except that he did. :confused:

I hate time travel... :evilangry:

That's the tragedy of Bishop's situation. He's screwed either way.

[jarrod]

I was always under impression that Ambassador St. Croix was a black African, and the mother was a brown skinned Algerian.
He's actually french, though he did retcon races from caucasian to black. Monet was conceived by Lobdell as interracial though, Faerber did the retcon.

edit: I don't think we ever actually saw Monet's mom on panel though? Did we?

[jarrod]

I'm really glad that black baby-killing tribes are getting representation in comics.
I find medicine murder fascinating.


*crickets*

[That JonoGuy]

No actually you're wrong, there is a significant Tuareg (black) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg) population in Southern Algeria. Next time do your research.

If Monet had been colored as dark as the Tuareg population I could see your point, but she has mostly been portrayed as a lighter shade.

[cosmoboy]

Xero did you just post a picture of three people as proof that all Tauregs are black? I have absolutely no knowledge of this subject,but that seems like a silly way to prove your point. You'll need to post a picture of ALL Tauregs.

[AcesX1X]

bishop probably doesn't even know what a tuareg is, so all of you people should just sit down.

he is preparing for his walkabout as we speak. show some respect.

[streator]

i've always liked bishop & have collected his solo series in the past but there's just not enough here to make me pick this up, similar to the cable annual that featured him last year.

i'd much rather see his story incorporated into the cable series and not elsewhere.

[Dooby Doo!]

He's actually french, though he did retcon races from caucasian to black. Monet was conceived by Lobdell as interracial though, Faerber did the retcon.

edit: I don't think we ever actually saw Monet's mom on panel though? Did we?

She's Algerian Monet's father is French of African descent, people it's not that hard.

Hell the guy who developed 'free running' is black french, Vanilli is black french why is it so hard to conceptualize that America isn't the only country with citizens of african descent?

If Monet had been colored as dark as the Tuareg population I could see your point, but she has mostly been portrayed as a lighter shade.

I'm light skinned and I'm black, both parents black, my dad is black as pitch my mom is light with hazel eyes, we do come in varied shades ya'know. Plus Monet is bi-racial to begin with so her being light is a common thing.

Even within the "Subsarahan" African population their are cosmetic differences, South Africans then to be brown hued and many with freckles, east africans dark with fine features, Sudanese are extremely dark and tall, west africans vary from very dark (Djimon houso) to medium brown (Chiwetel Ejior) to high yellow (Salif Keita) and none of them have little to none European ancestry.

It's a misconception to think blacks (Sub-saharan) are hemogenous we ain't

[marvell2100]

It will be nice to get some definitive answers about Bishop's timeline. I want to see more about his parents, how the XSE was formed and the other people in Bishop's life.

[That JonoGuy]

It'll be interesting to see what X-Men connections he teases us with.

[peedi]

black as a race is just a socially constructed handle. Anyone of darker skin tone can consider themselves to be black...or not. "Black" doesn't reveal ethnicity. My college Black Student Union had many non-African Americans and Non-Africans who were members because they felt they belonged due to their darker color. Then again, I've known a Brazilian and Puerto Rican, both of whom are often mistaken for being African American, who do not consider themselves "black" at all. And that's just what it is.

A common misconception in America is that black is interchangeable with African American or African. Culturally and ethnically Bishop is not black like Prodigy, Storm or Gentile, but they are all black in skin color. Technically, Prodigy is the only African American. Maybe Storm as well, since she was born here...it's all in how you define it. Anyway, I think this all started from somewhere unintentionally harmful...and maybe just went a tad too far (although I may not be helping this, either...)

Anyway I hope this makes Bishop a little more readable...after all these years, for him to just be a villain is a slap in the face...it's like a bad wrestling plot...you need a push, turn heel.

[Bingo!]

It will be nice to get some definitive answers about Bishop's timeline. I want to see more about his parents, how the XSE was formed and the other people in Bishop's life.

Agreed.

These are questions I've had about Bishop since he chased Fitroy into our timeline.

[justinkos91]

Off the topic of race, like we need another thread about it...

I think Stroman has really improved in comparison to X-Factor and it fit the book quite well
I really look forward to next month. Maybe it was the inker, who knows...
kudos to Stroman, and I hope to see what happens next month
I'm glad the writer remembered Bishop's connection to Gambit

[LittleMissVixen]

If Monet had been colored as dark as the Tuareg population I could see your point, but she has mostly been portrayed as a lighter shade.


She was mostly portrayed as a medium to dark skin complexion woman. Regardless of her nationality, this doesnt mesh with her appearance in X-Factor

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/Nubia/m2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/Nubia/m8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/Nubia/m12.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/Nubia/m13.jpg

[That JonoGuy]

She was mostly portrayed as a medium to dark skin complexion woman. Regardless of her nationality, this doesnt mesh with her appearance in X-Factor

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/Nubia/m2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/Nubia/m8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/Nubia/m12.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/Nubia/m13.jpg

Her color has fluctuated ever since she was introduced, so it's hardly set in stone. This discussion though, should be moved to the Monet thread.

[ReturnOfTheComeback]

Lucas Bishop was ALWAYS the Xmen's resident "Knight Templar" from the beginning. Remember when what he wanted the most was to kill Gambit? ( Speaking of which I would love to see the two team up together again, the way Scott Lobdell wrote them , they were like a mutant version of Danny Glover and Mel Gibson ala Lethal Weapon )

I'm really glad that black baby-killing tribes are getting representation in comics.

Well, they gave a white baby-killing tribe the star treatment in 300 , so it's only fair they do the same for the other side :biggrin:

[jarrod]

She's Algerian Monet's father is French of African descent, people it's not that hard.
That's what I said.

But it's worth noting he wasn't originally of African descent, that's a retcon. And unlike Bishop shifting from AA to aboriginal, it's actually an on panel retcon... in Ambassador St. Crox's first appearance he was an older white man named Louis with grey hair and a mustache. Then later on in Generation X he was younger, black and named Cartier. It's the same guy though, both with deceased wives, both french ambassadors, both members of the Mutant Underground. :/

[Leirus]

http://www.chronicpoverty.org/pubfiles/Tuareg%20men%20in%20Niger.jpg

Say what now?


This I say, now

http://mural.uv.es/imarto/Tuareg%20family.jpg

There are also Tuaregs in Niger, darkest ones...like the ones in your pic, who mixed with subsaharian populations. I just assumed they were talking about the ones living in Algeria...

I was born just in front of the Sahara, I know what I am talking about. There is a fair amount of people from Magreb living on my islands...

At any rate... is anybody going to post a review? with sssssssssssssspoilers?

[Yoel]

This looks great. Haven't been enjoying the X books much recently, but this has got me interested.
Love Larry Stroman's art... I think Mark Farmer on inks is defintely a good match for Stroman's pencils.

[Blade X]

That's what I said.

But it's worth noting he wasn't originally of African descent, that's a retcon. And unlike Bishop shifting from AA to aboriginal, it's actually an on panel retcon... in Ambassador St. Crox's first appearance he was an older white man named Louis with grey hair and a mustache. Then later on in Generation X he was younger, black and named Cartier. It's the same guy though, both with deceased wives, both french ambassadors, both members of the Mutant Underground. :/

My memory is a littlespotty on this. I only recall M's father being a white guy of Arab or Berben descent. I don't recall the later retcon that turned him into a black man of African descent. If possible, could use please post the pictures of both versions of her father?

To put this whole argument to rest about what race Bishop and M used to be or are supposed to be, we should pose these questions to the guys who write the comic book urban legends column on this site.

[Leirus]

My memory is a littlespotty on this. I only recall M's father being a white guy of Arab or Berben descent. I don't recall the later retcon that turned him into a black man of African descent. If possible, could use please post the pictures of both versions of her father?

To put this whole argument to rest about what race Bishop and M used to be or are supposed to be, we should pose these questions to the guys who write the comic book urban legends column on this site.

I would not care, really...Monet is north african, so Arab or some related ethnic group (bereber, Arab-french etc...). But most of the people in comics today could not represent the correct racial features of the characters to save their lives:

Psylocke : She has usually white features with a yellowish tan
Ultimate wasp : She was supposed to be still asian in Ultimates 3 right?
M herself: From nearly white to a black girl
Sunspot: From Mulatto to white to black and all the way back
Jubilee: She only looks remotely chinese a 40% of the time

etc, ect. All the characters who are not specifically black or white are just... blurry in the comic art... So I would not care that much. And even when the drawing is all right, the colours all are over the place (I remember Monet being greyish in a couple of issues)...

[Blade X]

This I say, now

http://mural.uv.es/imarto/Tuareg%20family.jpg

There are also Tuaregs in Niger, darkest ones...like the ones in your pic, who mixed with subsaharian populations. I just assumed they were talking about the ones living in Algeria...

I was born just in front of the Sahara, I know what I am talking about. There is a fair amount of people from Magreb living on my islands...

So basically the Tuaregs, like Arabs, are just darker skinned "white" people. And there are also many Tuarego who MIGHT also be mixed with black Africans

[darknessatnoon]

So basically the Tuaregs, like Arabs, are just darker skinned "white" people. And there are also many Tuarego who MIGHT also be mixed with black Africans

When you say "white people" do you mean Caucasians?

[Blade X]

I would not care, really...Monet is north african, so Arab or some related ethnic group (bereber, Arab-french etc...). But most of the people in comics today could not represent the correct racial features of the characters to save their lives:

Psylocke : She has usually white features with a yellowish tan
Ultimate wasp : She was supposed to be still asian in Ultimates 3 right?
M herself: From nearly white to a black girl
Sunspot: From Mulatto to white to black and all the way back
Jubilee: She only looks remotely chinese a 40% of the time

etc, ect. All the characters who are not specifically black or white are just... blurry in the comic art... So I would not care that much. And even when the drawing is all right, the colours all are over the place (I remember Monet being greyish in a couple of issues)...

You hit the nail right on the head about how many artist either can't or are not willing to CONSISTENTLY draw characters with proper racial features. And don't get me started on the colorists.

[Blade X]

When you say "white people" do you mean Caucasians?

Yes I mean Caucasian.

[Flâneur]

You hit the nail right on the head about how many artist either can't or are not willing to CONSISTENTLY draw characters with proper racial features. And don't get me started on the colorists.

To be fair, a lot of artists can't draw 'white' features either. The only thing that visually distinguishes a lot of the characters they draw is the colour of the hair. One blonde white woman is all blonde white women.

[darknessatnoon]

Yes I mean Caucasian.

I see. Well, Caucasian is a "social concept" not a genetic one. There are no traits you couldn't find in Negroids and Mongoloids. Notice how we no longer use those terms, btw? Because we have discredited the racial science that came up with them in the first place. "Black" is not a race. Do you mean "Negroid?"

Anthropologists would classify many Arabs as Semites simply due to cultural characteristics, not phrenological ones. And then there are tribals. Those categories are also easily deconstructed but a lot more handy than your 19th Century colonial racial "science."

I see you using no categorical tools that an Enlightened person would use, therefore, I would kindly ask you to stuff a sock in it.

[darknessatnoon]

To be fair, a lot of artists can't draw 'white' features either. The only thing that visually distinguishes a lot of the characters they draw is the colour of the hair. One blonde white woman is all blonde white women.

Right. He doesn't seem to grasp the concept of "cartooning" either.

[Leirus]

So basically the Tuaregs, like Arabs, are just darker skinned "white" people. And there are also many Tuarego who MIGHT also be mixed with black Africans

I do not like the darker "white" people... it sounds somehow... as if white were the normal... althought I understand what you mean. They are not white as in caucausian... they are, well I guess I would go with arabish, but they tend to get really offended when you say them that they are Arabs... (specially Berebers, because they have their share of political problems with arabs) So I do not know.

The Tuaregs who live in Niger or at the souther part of Sahara have been mixed with the darker subsaharian people for ages, so they are darker. Specially in Niger, but, culturally, they are Tuaregs all the same... Probably for them the disctintion between darker and lighter does not make any sense.

I feel a bit uncomfortable with this kind of discussion. In Spain we do not have this strong difference between black and white, as a lot of the people who came from latinomerica is just... mulatto... or latino... is kind of unpolite here even to discuss that much who is "white" and who not... it sounds... racist to us. As main divisions we have Whites, Moors (people from north africa in general) and Blacks (Subsaharian)... but when someone is from mixed origin, we do not take that into account or classify them as "Black" or "Moor". Probably because our population have been mixing with people from north africa since middle ages, and you can find spanish people really white and with green or blue eyes and also people really moorish... so it is not always easy to know who is just darker and who has a parent from overseas...

Sometimes I feel that the american people try to fit everyone in the "black or white" scheme, and that is just confusing for me.

[timbox]

I am enlightened. That is why I don't care about race.

[Bingo!]

This is annoying.

Not once is race, ethnicity or skin color mentioned in Times and Life.

Take that discussion elsewhere and talk about the damned contents of the issue.

[Leirus]

This is annoying.

Not once is race, ethnicity or skin color mentioned in Times and Life.

Take that discussion elsewhere and talk about the damned contents of the issue.

Maybe if someone made a nice, spoilerific review about the actual issue :wink:

[Bingo!]

Maybe if someone made a nice, spoilerific review about the actual issue :wink:

I would love to see Blade X attempt this without referencing nations or skin color, If Blade X has even read the issue.

[worstblogever]

This is annoying.

Not once is race, ethnicity or skin color mentioned in Times and Life.

Take that discussion elsewhere and talk about the damned contents of the issue.

The Witness looked pretty good for like an 80 year old.

[darknessatnoon]

I would love to see Blade X attempt this without referencing nations or skin color, If Blade X has even read the issue.

Why should he read about some frickin aborginal?

[Leirus]

I would love to see Blade X attempt this without referencing nations or skin color, If Blade X has even read the issue.

I know that I havent... That is why I am asking for a review. I am really interested in the alternative futures, and how they are integrating Bishop with the future where Layla is currently trapped (I wonder if we will see her here)

But the issue will not arrive here until next week, and that is if my fave shop decides to bring it...

[Flâneur]

Sometimes I feel that the american people try to fit everyone in the "black or white" scheme, and that is just confusing for me.
That's part of what blackness means, in this context. It's identity politics generated by the black/white binary in a mostly colonial framework. Genetics and geography are entirely irrelevant to notions of blackness but, as noted earlier in the thread, there is a tendency for Americans to conflate African America and blackness exclusively. That's why the term might not apply so strictly to where you're from, since it's not really designed for that kind of country.

It's also why the notion is pretty silly to bicker about with Bishop.

[Excelsior]

That's part of what blackness means, in this context. It's identity politics generated by the black/white binary in a mostly colonial framework. Genetics and geography are entirely irrelevant to notions of blackness but, as noted earlier in the thread, there is a tendency for Americans to conflate African America and blackness exclusively. That's why the term might not apply so strictly to where you're from, since it's not really designed for that kind of country.

It's also why the notion is pretty silly to bicker about with Bishop.
So true.. with the comedy being the system is still going on, even while its denied by its main practitioners.


Anyways, on to the issue..Larry Stromans art worked for me.

[Bingo!]

The Witness looked pretty good for like an 80 year old.

YES!

oh damn. I wish I had time to do a spoiler.

[worstblogever]

YES!

oh damn. I wish I had time to do a spoiler.

Don't look at me, I did the Cable one yesterday, and I'm due for some sleep.

Overdue, actually.

[Bingo!]

Don't look at me, I did the Cable one yesterday, and I'm due for some sleep.

Overdue, actually.

To bed with you!

[Excelsior]

Don't look at me, I did the Cable one yesterday, and I'm due for some sleep.

Overdue, actually.

Fatigued from your Bishop/Storm post. no doubt. lol

[Leirus]

That's part of what blackness means, in this context. It's identity politics generated by the black/white binary in a mostly colonial framework. Genetics and geography are entirely irrelevant to notions of blackness but, as noted earlier in the thread, there is a tendency for Americans to conflate African America and blackness exclusively. That's why the term might not apply so strictly to where you're from, since it's not really designed for that kind of country.

It's also why the notion is pretty silly to bicker about with Bishop.

A really good explanation, thanks...

Your society makes me feel confused... but kinda curious, also... As I am going to Chicago in two months, I will explore around, like an antropologist or something lol.

WBE I am sure you are going to post at leats twenty times before going to sleep... you could as well do a little review... sob :frown: You know how I like them...

*Drops a single Roma Tear*

[timbox]

Chicago is a good representation of America. It is run by criminals.

[Flâneur]

Chicago is a good representation of America. It is run by criminals.

I had thought it was under the iron fist of dn@n?

[darknessatnoon]

I had thought it was under the iron fist of dn@n?

Unfortunately, I'm bogged down just trying to get the trains to run on time.

[Excelsior]

Unfortunately, I'm bogged down just trying to get the trains to run on time.

I bet it has to do with how you keep Blagojevich's hair so....um solid.

[Atomic Mongoose]

For the love of God, people get upset when they find out a character turns out NOT to be of their own racial ancestry? LOL... like, "Y'know, I loved M before, but now it turns out she's not black so I'm really just not a huge fan anymore".

You people doing all the whining always cry that there's not enough XYZ-minority representation in comics. Then a character of XYZ-minority is finally introduced, and it's the same people bitching that the character isn't written realistically. Or the character is being portrayed as a stereotype. It's never enough, and never will be. People who play the minority-card - whether it be for race, gender, sexuality, whatever - don't pull it because they want a solution. Pulling the minority-card, especially in the case of something as trivial as a friggin' comic book, is just an example of people endulging their sense of entitlement to bitch and moan about something. Some people need racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. like Al Gore needs global warming - take it away, and they've suddenly got nothing to talk about. And I say this as a minority myself.

And for the record, as seen in issue #1, Bishop is technically AMERICAN. So who gives a damn beyond that??????

[Blade X]

I see. Well, Caucasian is a "social concept" not a genetic one. There are no traits you couldn't find in Negroids and Mongoloids. Notice how we no longer use those terms, btw? Because we have discredited the racial science that came up with them in the first place. "Black" is not a race. Do you mean "Negroid?"

Anthropologists would classify many Arabs as Semites simply due to cultural characteristics, not phrenological ones. And then there are tribals. Those categories are also easily deconstructed but a lot more handy than your 19th Century colonial racial "science."

I see you using no categorical tools that an Enlightened person would use, therefore, I would kindly ask you to stuff a sock in it.

So you when you can't prove me wrong with facts, you try to prove me wrong by saying I'm unenlightened because I said white is the same thing as Caucasian. The same old typical BS I come to expect from this type of discussion from people like you.

FYI, anthropologists classify Semites as "white" people.

[darknessatnoon]

So you when you can't prove me wrong with facts, you try to prove me wrong by saying I'm unenlightened because I said white is the same thing as Caucasian. The same old typical BS I come to expect from this type of discussion from people like you.

FYI, anthropologists classify Semites as "white" people.

They classify them as Semites. And how would you classify "people like" me?

[marvell2100]

At least they're not arguing over Bishop being a baby-killer anymore :wink: .
Uh oh! INCOMING!!!!!!!!!

[Blade X]

I do not like the darker "white" people... it sounds somehow... as if white were the normal... althought I understand what you mean. They are not white as in caucausian... they are, well I guess I would go with arabish, but they tend to get really offended when you say them that they are Arabs... (specially Berebers, because they have their share of political problems with arabs) So I do not know.

The Tuaregs who live in Niger or at the souther part of Sahara have been mixed with the darker subsaharian people for ages, so they are darker. Specially in Niger, but, culturally, they are Tuaregs all the same... Probably for them the disctintion between darker and lighter does not make any sense.

I feel a bit uncomfortable with this kind of discussion. In Spain we do not have this strong difference between black and white, as a lot of the people who came from latinomerica is just... mulatto... or latino... is kind of unpolite here even to discuss that much who is "white" and who not... it sounds... racist to us. As main divisions we have Whites, Moors (people from north africa in general) and Blacks (Subsaharian)... but when someone is from mixed origin, we do not take that into account or classify them as "Black" or "Moor". Probably because our population have been mixing with people from north africa since middle ages, and you can find spanish people really white and with green or blue eyes and also people really moorish... so it is not always easy to know who is just darker and who has a parent from overseas...

Sometimes I feel that the american people try to fit everyone in the "black or white" scheme, and that is just confusing for me.

Current anthropology science put Berbers and Arabs (when it comes to race) into the white/Caucasian/European group. I often wonder if this is actually true or are some people in the anthropology community are trying to make the "white" race more dominant and prominent by tying Middle East and North African people more closely to Europeans then to Africans.

Yeah, America tries to fit people into racial groups. What's really funny is that MOST African Americans are actually of mixed racial ancestry (black,white,and Native American) but because of the asinine "1/16 drop of black blood makes a person black" rule, every black person of African descent is considered black.

[Blade X]

Why should he read about some frickin aborginal?

No, I didn't (and I'm NOT planning to) read this book because they turned Bishop into a bad guy.

[Blade X]

They classify them as Semites. And how would you classify "people like" me?

Simple, a jackass.:smile:

[darknessatnoon]

Simple, a jackass.:smile:

You can feel the bones in my head to make sure.

[worstblogever]

You know, when I think about it, people freaked out when Lifeguard was revealed to be half-Shiar, and not simply a caucasean Austrailian lady.


But that was probably because it's an imaginary, alien race and there seemed to be no way her crime lord dad got off planet, or had access to a Shi'ar hussy to be her mom. And she turned into a golden bird on crack.


So be grateful Bishop's an Aboriginal Austrailian. It could be much, much worse.

[Peter David]

Sunspot and M bothy used to be black but Peter David decided M wasn't black anymore, and someone else decided there weren't any black Brazilians (I'm being sarcastic here).

I decided that, did I?

Kindly reserve your opinions for that which you actually know about...if such things exist.

PAd

[darknessatnoon]

I decided that, did I?

Kindly reserve your opinions for that which you actually know about...if such things exist.

PAd

I love you.

[Optic Rage!]

I decided that, did I?

Kindly reserve your opinions for that which you actually know about...if such things exist.

PAd

PAD, i know people on here can be cunts, but you might want to stop pointing it out, seeing as these are the guys who actually pay money for your comics.

Twice in one day, people notice this shit.

[Swashbuckler]

PAD, i know people on here can be cunts, but you might want to stop pointing it out, seeing as these are the guys who actually pay money for your comics.

Twice in one day, people notice this shit.

I enjoy PAD's comments, even if he's making fun of the fans. Or being rude to them. I don't hold him any different standard I guess, just my opinion. Rock on PAD. And thanks for making Monet non-black!

[Prodigy55]

I decided that, did I?

Kindly reserve your opinions for that which you actually know about...if such things exist.

PAd

OH NOES!
You didn't capitalize the D.
Edit this posthaste!

lol <3

[Novaya Havoc]

I enjoy PAD's comments, even if he's making fun of the fans. Or being rude to them. I don't hold him any different standard I guess, just my opinion. Rock on PAD. And thanks for making Monet non-black!

I enjoy PAD's comments, but I don't enjoy his being registered with the Communist Party via using Longshot.

[drwho]

Hey all if the first issue of this series came out can someone do a spoiler thread.

[Greg Anderson]

OMG! Will someone PLEASE talk about the actual comic?!? :mad:

[Prodigy55]

I didn't get it Greg.
Tell me if it's worth it.

[Greg Anderson]

I didn't get it Greg.
Tell me if it's worth it.

I didn't get it myself. I want to know what's the majority vote before spending 4 bucks on it. Thus far one person in the Bishop thread said it's good.

[darknessatnoon]

It is good.

You saw the previews. Then Bishop hears about the X-Men from his grandmother, who is Storm.

Josef F. would like Bishop's childhood imaginary depiction of Wolverine. Stroman's art is priceless here. It's very much in tune with how I believe wolvie616 perceives Wolverine. Colossus is ridiculous looking and Nightcrawler is a little bubble with a tail.

Bishop's mom gets an M tattooed on her face. It's grotesque and her flesh is melted. She takes off her mask and shows it to baby Bishop! She bitches to Bishop that when it happens to him, "that /$%@# red-haired monster is to blame"! LOL

Bishop is infuriated by the Summers Rebellion since it kills his parents. He is homeless and a thief. Someone comes along at the end, to train him. You know who...

[AcesX1X]

this is amazing plot. thank you, dn@n for summarizing.

blade x, how do you feel about these sudden revelations? not only is bishop black again, but he's also black royalty.

[alf_to_the_rescue]

It is good.

You saw the previews. Then Bishop hears about the X-Men from his grandmother, who is Storm.

Josef F. would like Bishop's childhood imaginary depiction of Wolverine. Stroman's art is priceless here. It's very much in tune with how I believe wolvie616 perceives Wolverine. Colossus is ridiculous looking and Nightcrawler is a little bubble with a tail.

Bishop's mom gets an M tattooed on her face. It's grotesque and her flesh is melted. She takes off her mask and shows it to baby Bishop! She bitches to Bishop that when it happens to him, "that /$%@# red-haired monster is to blame"! LOL

Bishop is infuriated by the Summers Rebellion since it kills his parents. He is homeless and a thief. Someone comes along at the end, to train him. You know who...

No, who????

[darknessatnoon]

Storm is very fat in this issue, as the cover art preview suggested. There is more Goddess for your buck in this comic than any other Marvel is selling these days.

[darknessatnoon]

No, who????

Gambit Bishop is a descendant of a thief and was trained by one .

[alf_to_the_rescue]

Gambit Bishop is a descendant of a thief and was trained by one .

Ahh, ok, thanks, Im having one of my slow nights.

[AcesX1X]

LOL can you imagine if bishop and storm had gotten together in the here and now?

it's absolutely vile.

jarrod, find us some slashfic starring these two. or ask mitsaso.

[darknessatnoon]

I have left out some FUN details that spin the story in fascinating ways, but it is your responsibility to go buy this issue and read it.

[Flâneur]

I think everyone will be very pleased. PAD would be proud of what dn@n has withheld.

[Prodigy55]

OK.
I'm buying this tomorrow.
Be prepared to discuss it.

[darknessatnoon]

Now we know that Storm and the Black Panther will not last.

She is destined to screw Gateway.

[drwho]

Wait i thought this was going to feature the witness and not gambit.

[darknessatnoon]

Wait i thought this was going to feature the witness and not gambit.

Maybe the Witness will appear later. But this is issue one.

[drwho]

does he literally say he is gambit on panel?

[darknessatnoon]

No, it is not said. But something else is said that specifically indicates who it is. He says he's an X-Man. And it looks exactly like Gambit. He also has an idiotic accent.

[Swashbuckler]

I like how even though Bishop is aboriginal he still tries to keep up African American stereotypes in this issue. Interesting. Is this part of his technique to blend in? Also, his mother hated him. She seems like a smart individual.

[Waterlily]

It is good.

You saw the previews. Then Bishop hears about the X-Men from his grandmother, who is Storm.

Josef F. would like Bishop's childhood imaginary depiction of Wolverine. Stroman's art is priceless here. It's very much in tune with how I believe wolvie616 perceives Wolverine. Colossus is ridiculous looking and Nightcrawler is a little bubble with a tail.

Bishop's mom gets an M tattooed on her face. It's grotesque and her flesh is melted. She takes off her mask and shows it to baby Bishop! She bitches to Bishop that when it happens to him, "that /$%@# red-haired monster is to blame"! LOL

Bishop is infuriated by the Summers Rebellion since it kills his parents. He is homeless and a thief. Someone comes along at the end, to train him. You know who...

Is this the same rebellion Layla Miller helped incite?

Now we know that Storm and the Black Panther will not last.

She is destined to screw Gateway.

Maybe Gateway is the New Black Panther.

[Prodigy55]

I like how even though Bishop is aboriginal he still tries to keep up African American stereotypes in this issue.

What a poser.

[darknessatnoon]

Is this the same rebellion Layla Miller helped incite?


Yes. Layla and Ruby cause the death of his parents.

[drwho]

im still wondering where bishop came up with the idea for mutated giant cockroaches to take over the world.

[supreme5]

I love how Bishop thought of the X-men from the stories his grandmother told him.


http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/xmenbx3.jpg/1/w232.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img516/xmenbx3.jpg/1/)

[darknessatnoon]

im still wondering where bishop came up with the idea for mutated giant cockroaches to take over the world.

Since he's basically Wakandan royalty, I'd guess that it's a Black Panther Doomsday strategy.

[drwho]

Yes. Layla and Ruby cause the death of his parents.

if that is the case than why didnt bishop kill cyclops the first time he met him?

[darknessatnoon]

if that is the case than why didnt bishop kill cyclops the first time he met him?

I don't think he knows that it's actually really is a Summers who causes the Summers Rebellion. And in fact, it wasn't. It was a Miller who caused it.

[drwho]

Since he's basically Wakandan royalty, I'd guess that it's a Black Panther Doomsday strategy.

so then bishop isnt aborigine

[rwsmith]

if that is the case than why didnt bishop kill cyclops the first time he met him?

Better question: If he can travel both forwards and backwards in time, why doesn't he just go to Alaska right when Hope is born and kill her before Cable rescues her?

Oh, because that would make too much sense. Again, why I hate time-travel. :rolleyes:

[drwho]

Better question: If he can travel both forwards and backwards in time, why doesn't he just go to Alaska right when Hope is born and kill her before Cable rescues her?

Oh, because that would make too much sense. Again, why I hate time-travel. :rolleyes:

yes but if he did that then time would revert in a way that he never did it in the first place so things would be the same. so if the baby was killed by future bishop than old bishop would never have gone through time to end up killing her hence baby hope would still be alive.

[Flâneur]

so then bishop isnt aborigine
His Indigenous Australia background has not been retconned, both of his parents were Indigenous Australians, hence the Storm and Gateway comment. Gateway is still Bishop's grandfather.

[rwsmith]

yes but if he did that then time would revert in a way that he never did it in the first place so things would be the same. so if the baby was killed by future bishop than old bishop would never have gone through time to end up killing her hence baby hope would still be alive.

But the same can be said if he kills Hope now (without going back to the day she was born). Time will revert as though she never caused his timeline, and thus he never grew up there, came back and killed her. Now you see the paradox, don't you?

[Waterlily]

I love how Bishop thought of the X-men from the stories his grandmother told him.


http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/xmenbx3.jpg/1/w232.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img516/xmenbx3.jpg/1/)

His imagining of Nightcrawler is adorable.

I don't think he knows that it's actually really is a Summers who causes the Summers Rebellion. And in fact, it wasn't. It was a Miller who caused it.

Layla is a very clever girl, covering her tracks with the Summers.

[Greg Anderson]

Wait wait wait.... Storm is his biological grandma? Not adopted or whatever? :confused: Wtf?

[drwho]

i thought it was just some white haired black lady.

[Flâneur]

Wait wait wait.... Storm is his biological grandma? Not adopted or whatever? :confused: Wtf?

That is correct.

[Waterlily]

Better question: If he can travel both forwards and backwards in time, why doesn't he just go to Alaska right when Hope is born and kill her before Cable rescues her?

Oh, because that would make too much sense. Again, why I hate time-travel. :rolleyes:

yes but if he did that then time would revert in a way that he never did it in the first place so things would be the same. so if the baby was killed by future bishop than old bishop would never have gone through time to end up killing her hence baby hope would still be alive.

But the same can be said if he kills Hope now (without going back to the day she was born). Time will revert as though she never caused his timeline, and thus he never grew up there, came back and killed her. Now you see the paradox, don't you?

This time travel talk is making me think of this (http://oneparticularwave.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/escher.gif), only in reverse.

[drwho]

if this is for real im going to post a spoiler for this in the bp thread.

[drwho]

Wait a minute this is wrong cus how can gw be alive when he was offed in the previous storyline with the books of destiny.

[Flâneur]

if this is for real im going to post a spoiler for this in the bp thread.

It is real. Storm is Bishop's grandmother.

[supreme5]

His two new family members were: Shard and his Grandmother. i think Storm was his unofficial addition to his family, she was in a different concentration camp but was able too work out a transfer to where bishop and his family were located.

I think Storm intentionally relocated to that camp and told bishop all those stories to save him from himself. Now it's Gambit is who is going to teach him how to be a master thief.

[Flâneur]

Wait a minute this is wrong cus how can gw be alive when he was offed in the previous storyline with the books of destiny.
Gateway death was not shown for certain, so obviously he is not dead as he still needs to plow and seed his Wakandan Queen.

[AcesX1X]

Wait a minute this is wrong cus how can gw be alive when he was offed in the previous storyline with the books of destiny.

what? do you need a de-frag? is something wrong with your analytical skills? is your harddrive corrupt or something?

obviously, gateway is not really dead, or will return sometime in the near future. another option is a gateway from the past comes to our present and inseminates storm at some point. another option is that storm finds a way to the past and does the deed with a past gateway before coming home.

[Waterlily]

what? do you need a de-frag? is something wrong with your analytical skills? is your harddrive corrupt or something?

obviously, gateway is not really dead, or will return sometime in the near future. another option is a gateway from the past comes to our present and inseminates storm at some point. another option is that storm finds a way to the past and does the deed with a past gateway before coming home.

The more convoluted their pairing, the better.

[Greg Anderson]

Wait, question. So is it possible that Storm and Gambit know who Bishop is and who he'll grow up to be and sorta will try to steer him in a certain direction? :confused:

[drwho]

Wait, question. So is it possible that Storm and Gambit know who Bishop is and who he'll grow up to be and sorta will try to steer him in a certain direction? :confused:

yeah but does it matter because if they tried they sure did a bad job of it.

[rwsmith]

Wait a minute this is wrong cus how can gw be alive when he was offed in the previous storyline with the books of destiny.

Because, regardless of whether or not Gateway is dead, we're in an alternate timeline from the one Bishop comes from. He's either just too dumb to realize it, or wants to ensure that nothing similar to his future ever comes to pass by killing the girl.

IMO if the future can be changed (or diverted) in the Marvel Universe, then the appearance of Rachel Grey, Bishop, Cable, Stryfe, Shard and Fitzroy in the present would certainly have been enough to change the course so that they are no longer headed towards any of their futures. Think about it.

And this, again, is part of why I hate time travel. If you really think about it, it most definitely feels like this (as Waterlilly so helpfully posted):

http://oneparticularwave.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/escher.gif

[Flâneur]

Wait, question. So is it possible that Storm and Gambit know who Bishop is and who he'll grow up to be and sorta will try to steer him in a certain direction? :confused:

That is the implication. Storm thinks Hope was a good thing, Bishop's mother did not.

[drwho]

wait is it possible they are retconing the whole ruby summers thing and replacing her with hope summers instead?

[AcesX1X]

well, what do you expect? i certainly wouldn't classify any of those future people as "smart."

[Flâneur]

Because, regardless of whether or not Gateway is dead, we're in an alternate timeline from the one Bishop comes from. He's either just too dumb to realize it, or wants to ensure that nothing similar to his future ever comes to pass by killing the girl.

IMO if the future can be changed (or diverted) in the Marvel Universe, then the appearance of Rachel Grey, Bishop, Cable, Stryfe, Shard and Fitzroy in the present would certainly have been enough to change the course so that they are no longer headed towards any of their futures. Think about it.

And this, again, is part of why I hate time travel. If you really think about it, it most definitely feels like this (as Waterlilly so helpfully posted):

http://oneparticularwave.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/escher.gif
Actually, Marvel has made it clear that this is the future at this point in time, not an alternate one, so unless Bishop kills the baby, Storm and Gateway are going to be brought together.

[rwsmith]

well, what do you expect? i certainly wouldn't classify any of those future people as "smart."

Personally I just think that Cable is smarter than Bishop and knows that they are on a new course.

Actually, Marvel has made it clear that this is the future at this point in time, not an alternate one, so unless Bishop kills the baby, Storm and Gateway are going to be brought together.

Who has made that clear exactly? Because Mark Millar has said that his future in Old Man Logan is the future of the 616 Marvel Universe.

[Flâneur]

Personally I just think that Cable is smarter than Bishop and knows that they are on a new course.

Cable has Epimetheus on his side. Bishop plans to erase twenty years or so of hell while Cable knows that the hell will lay the seeds for a better future for thousands of years afterward. It's like the 'would you kill Hitler?' scenario. The war changed the world's development and its mark will be felt for a long time but it is a hard ask to say the ovens were worth it.

[Flâneur]

Who has made that clear exactly? Because Mark Millar has said that his future in Old Man Logan is the future of the 616 Marvel Universe.

Marvel editorial. That is the entire point of the Messiah trilogy. This is the future as it currently stands.

[rwsmith]

Cable has Epimetheus on his side. Bishop plans to erase twenty years or so of hell while Cable knows that the hell will lay the seeds for a better future for thousands of years afterward. It's like the 'would you kill Hitler?' scenario. The war changed the world's development and its mark will be felt for a long time but it is a hard ask to say the ovens were worth it.

Well how would he know this since his future timeline has been confirmed to be averted? I remember reading somewhere that the Askani timeline that he comes from is no more. Maybe one of the Rachel fans can elaborate, as I didn't read The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix or any of that crap.

Marvel editorial. That is the entire point of the Messiah trilogy. This is the future as it currently stands.

Which one? The one Bishop comes from or the one Cable is currently in? I'm telling you, man, it's a mess. Hope just needs to cut everyone off from the timestream once and for all.

Regardless, it's late for me and I've got to go to bed. Good discussion, though. These are the type of nerdy things that always bother me about time travel, and it's kind of fun to bounce them off of other people.

[AcesX1X]

so, basically, the point is that bishop has a small mind. cable is the big thinker.

i am glad marvel cleared this up.

[supreme5]

Wait, question. So is it possible that Storm and Gambit know who Bishop is and who he'll grow up to be and sorta will try to steer him in a certain direction? :confused:


I'm thinking the same thing. it's a natural flow of events, but bishop is being raised by the x-men.

[rage6839]

Why is there an assumption Storm and Gateway get together? Besides an irrational hatred for Black Panther? Storm could be Bishop's maternal grandmother and Gateway the paternal grandfather or vice versa. Have to read the book again but there I didn't think Storm and Gateway did the deed.

[Flâneur]

Why is there an assumption Storm and Gateway get together? Besides an irrational hatred for Black Panther? Storm could be Bishop's maternal grandmother and Gateway the paternal grandfather or vice versa. Have to read the book again but there I didn't think Storm and Gateway did the deed.

It should be noted that Bishop's parents are from the same tribe. There are only so many men in the family that Storm could sleep with and produce a child the exact same age as Gateway's child. This intra-tribal relationship is an incorrect depiction of Indigenous Australians, however it is what Swierczynski has written.

[Waterlily]

Time Travel=

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1247/1433078831_f759b7e967_o.gif

[sneggz]

Better question: If he can travel both forwards and backwards in time, why doesn't he just go to Alaska right when Hope is born and kill her before Cable rescues her?

Oh, because that would make too much sense. Again, why I hate time-travel. :rolleyes:

Timey-wimey ball. That is always the answer for time travel.

[Flâneur]

Well how would he know this since his future timeline has been confirmed to be averted? I remember reading somewhere that the Askani timeline that he comes from is no more. Maybe one of the Rachel fans can elaborate, as I didn't read The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix or any of that crap.
The point of aversion was meant to be Apocalypse's 'death' in the Search for Cyclops storyline; the Askani son's function was to bring this about. Apocalypse, however, lives on, so a large part of the Askani timeline is still valid, as shown in Blinded by the Light. It's also worth pointing out that in order for the Askani to exist, Hope must have lived on in the timeline Cable was raised in. No Hope, no mutant resistance and no hope, literally, for the world to fight back.
Which one? The one Bishop comes from or the one Cable is currently in? I'm telling you, man, it's a mess. Hope just needs to cut everyone off from the timestream once and for all.
Both. They are on the same line but different points so long as Hope lives.
Better question: If he can travel both forwards and backwards in time, why doesn't he just go to Alaska right when Hope is born and kill her before Cable rescues her?
Go to Cardif. Dr. Who explains this.

[$5 Milkshake]

Go to Cardif. Dr. Who explains this.

Can you paraphrase the explanation? I would love to hear what Dr. Who has to say about this!

[fluxerj]

Bishop was the only black male X-Man and now he's ruined, either replace him or kill him.

[Stephen Moreno]

Wait wait wait.... Storm is his biological grandma? Not adopted or whatever? :confused: Wtf?

See the way I looked at it was Storm was the grandmother of Bishop, just like Cable is the father of Hope. I don't like the retcon one bit and that's the only way it makes sense to me. It seems maybe Storm and Gambit seek out Bishop.

Bishop was the only black male X-Man and now he's ruined, either replace him or kill him.

I love the character, I think this is the first time he's really been interesting. I don't see why making him do evil things has to mean he's ruined.

[Bingo!]

Bishop was the only black male X-Man and now he's ruined, either replace him or kill him.

That's a horrible suggestion. He's not completely ruined, yet.

This three-issue arc will hopeful shed further light on Bishop's singular motivation. No, he hasn't been forth coming on why he wants to kill Hope so badly. For some reason his childhood fears of what Hope means to his future is worth her death.

I hope Swierczynski can do Bishop some justice.

[Arksy]

Arghs. I hate when everything ends in a racial discussion.

Maybe should we clarify?

Black can mean dark skinned or African American

In America, as far I can tell, African American = Black, but also every person dark skinned gets confused with an African American, including Arabs, Mulatto, Hispanic, Amerindian people... Heck, American Soldiers thought Pancho Villa was Black (African American). Thus they are called "black". Most of the famous "black" people from america would be called mulatto in other places. Including Obama or Halle Berry. In brasil most of the people have some black blood, even if just a bit. But they are not classified as black (or as nothing) for that. So I think, the "Black/African American identity is something cultural from the states



Except you know, arabs and hispanics are cuacasian, therefore white.

[Stephen Moreno]

That's a horrible suggestion. He's not completely ruined, yet.

This three-issue arc will hopeful shed further light on Bishop's singular motivation. No, he hasn't been forth coming on why he wants to kill Hope so badly. For some reason his childhood fears of what Hope means to his future is worth her death.

I hope Swierczynski can do Bishop some justice.

This issue does shed light on some reasoning.

I read it today, it's pretty good read I think. I loved Stroman's pages of Bishop's imagination and how he see's the X-Men in the stories Gramma Storm tells him.

[Blade X]

It should be noted that Bishop's parents are from the same tribe. There are only so many men in the family that Storm could sleep with and produce a child the exact same age as Gateway's child. This intra-tribal relationship is an incorrect depiction of Indigenous Australians, however it is what Swierczynski has written.

OK, color me (no pun intended) confused. Does it actually say in this issue that Storm is Bishop's biological grandma?

If Storm is Bishop's biological grandma, two questions come to mind. Which of his parents is Storm's kid? And is one of his parents half African or a full blooded person of African descent that was adopted by an Aboriginal tribe?

[Stephen Moreno]

OK, color me (no pun intended) confused. Does it actually say in this issue that Storm is Bishop's biological grandma?

If Storm is Bishop's biological grandma, two questions come to mind. Which of his parents is Storm's kid? And is one of his parents half African or a full blooded person of African descent that was adopted by an Aboriginal tribe?

We don't know, I don't think they ever call that woman Storm. She has white hair, she says she was around when the Messiah baby was born and she has stories of the X-Men, but we never get told her name.

[darknessatnoon]

We don't know, I don't think they ever call that woman Storm. She has white hair, she says she was around when the Messiah baby was born and she has stories of the X-Men, but we never get told her name.

Except she's on the cover, dressed as Storm (my old avatar).

[Arksy]

Stroman seriously needs a new job. :/

[Leirus]

Except she's on the cover, dressed as Storm (my old avatar).

Please, please, do not use that avatar again. At first it was fun, but afterwards it hoovered over my mind while I tried to sleep...

And I have decided that the black/withe/caucasian/whatever thing is too culturally loaded to talk any more about that here or anywhere.

The issue has been out two days and we do not have a review yet? Duh!

I want to read the issue to decide if Storm is supposed to be an adoptive or real grandmother...

[darknessatnoon]

Please, please, do not use that avatar again. At first it was fun, but afterwards it hoovered over my mind while I tried to sleep...

And I have decided that the black/withe/caucasian/whatever thing is too culturally loaded to talk any more about that here or anywhere.

The issue has been out two days and we do not have a review yet? Duh!

I want to read the issue to decide if Storm is supposed to be an adoptice or real grandmother...

I did the review already, duh!

Anyway, I left out whether she's real or adoptive to compel people to go buy the issue, but Stephen Morono has SPOILED IT.

She's his honorary grandmother. She makes sure she gets into his camp so that she can plant horrible thoughts in his head about the baby. Basically, Storm is responsible for the fact that Bishop is a psycho.

Nevertheless, if I understand Wakandan law correctly, should her highness, Storm, adopt a child, then aforementioned child is true Wakandan royalty. In short, Bishop is the New Black Panther.

[darknessatnoon]

Stroman seriously needs a new job. :/

Stroman's art this issue was absolutely superb. Enough of the hateration.

[timbox]

Storm appreciated Layla's efforts. Bishop's mother did not.

Did it cover Storm's thoughts on baby Hope?

[darknessatnoon]

Storm appreciated Layla's efforts. Bishop's mother did not.

Did it cover Storm's thoughts on baby Hope?

Yeah, she says at first they were happy about the baby. She also says that Bishop couldn't have been born if Hope hadn't been. But basically, she's there to program him to go back and kill her.

[timbox]

Yeah, she says at first they were happy about the baby. She also says that Bishop couldn't have been born if Hope hadn't been. But basically, she's there to program him to go back and kill her.

Is it safe to assume that Layla is going to kill Storm in this series? If so, I will add it to my pull list immediately.

[darknessatnoon]

Is it safe to assume that Layla is going to kill Storm in this series? If so, I will add it to my pull list immediately.

I do not know about that. When Bishop finds out that it was Layla who killed his parents, though, there will be hell to pay.

[timbox]

So future Storm was a prisoner in the concentration camps where Bishop was born? Did she have an M tattoo?

[timbox]

She programmed him to be a psychopathic baby killer but didn't bother teaching him to read. Storm is a great leader.

Is Storm illiterate?
Should this be discussed in a new thread?

[darknessatnoon]

So future Storm was a prisoner in the concentration camps where Bishop was born? Did she have an M tattoo?

Yes,

BTW, his parents don't deny that she's his grandmother. So, she may actually be biological.

[timbox]

We need some scans of this issue.

[The Fury]

I think I need to read this issue again *in store*. When I read it *in store*, I didn't take as much in as I should have.

My wondering is how things happen from the end of this issue to the time in when he became an XSE and how Gambit got to his 'Witness' position of power as seen in uncanny issues.

Also the theory of the X-men in this, they either know who Bishop is, or when he does time travel, he does jump into another reality one step over, so these X-men don't know who he is. He cannot save his future but he can save the future of the 616.

[drwho]

Gambit and the witness were turned into 2 separate characters before. Does Layla actually get mentioned here?

[darknessatnoon]

Gambit and the witness were turned into 2 separate characters before. Does Layla actually get mentioned here?

No, when the rebellion breaks out, Bishop's dad whispers "I can't believe they're really doing it." Then he tries to run away and gets fried.

[drwho]

No, when the rebellion breaks out, Bishop's dad whispers "I can't believe they're really doing it." Then he tries to run away and gets fried.

how well does this fit in with the layla one shot as far as bishop appearances go?

[Leirus]

Yeah, she says at first they were happy about the baby. She also says that Bishop couldn't have been born if Hope hadn't been. But basically, she's there to program him to go back and kill her.


I meant a detailed one, but thanks for the little spoilers...

SO, The Messiah baby is going to unlock somehow the evolutionary potential that Wanda deleted? Because if not, I do not see how she made possible Bishop being born...

[drwho]

I meant a detailed one, but thanks for the little spoilers...

SO, The Messiah baby is going to unlock somehow the evolutionary potential that Wanda deleted? Because if not, I do not see how she made possible Bishop being born...

aaah that is interesting. I wonder how she does that though.

[darknessatnoon]

how well does this fit in with the layla one shot as far as bishop appearances go?

drwho,

You are one of my favorite posters on CBR, but you are really trying my patience over this issue. Just go out and buy it.

[drwho]

drwho,

You are one of my favorite posters on CBR, but you are really trying my patience over this issue. Just go out and buy it.

no money plus looking at the stroman art will make me

http://abowlofstupid.com/wp-content/2007/05/face_melt.jpg

[Leirus]

aaah that is interesting. I wonder how she does that though.

I do not know if that is already planned. I am still not even sure if the Jean option is closed...

[Flâneur]

See the way I looked at it was Storm was the grandmother of Bishop, just like Cable is the father of Hope. I don't like the retcon one bit and that's the only way it makes sense to me. It seems maybe Storm and Gambit seek out Bishop.



I love the character, I think this is the first time he's really been interesting. I don't see why making him do evil things has to mean he's ruined.

You so spoiled it. We were going to leave the revelation until a wbe summary and a lengthy dissertation on Gateway and Storm sexy time. :frown:

[worstblogever]

You so spoiled it. We were going to leave the revelation until a wbe summary and a lengthy dissertation on Gateway and Storm sexy time. :frown:

I couldn't type that without laughing uncontrollably in pain. I figured I'd let someone else do it.

[Arksy]

Stroman's art this issue was absolutely superb. Enough of the hateration.

How was it superb? Why does everyone have a cat's nose and whiskers? Why don't the people have clearly defined lines?

...everyone looks like a blob. I've never seen an artist's work this hideous in recent times.

I couldn't finish this because of how incredibly ugly the art was, and that's a first for comics for me. I was able to put up with it in X-factor because we had PETER DAVID writing it.

[Flâneur]

How was it superb? Why does everyone have a cat's nose and whiskers? Why don't the people have clearly defined lines?

...everyone looks like a blob. I've never seen an artist's work this hideous in recent times.

I couldn't finish this because of how incredibly ugly the art was, and that's a first for comics for me. I was able to put up with it in X-factor because we had PETER DAVID writing it.
It suited the issue and conveyed the emotion. It did not suit X-Factor. That's the main difference.

[Leirus]

It suited the issue and conveyed the emotion. It did not suit X-Factor. That's the main difference.

I honestly think the art is simply better than in X-Factor... But I have only seen the previews.

Maybe because of the inker? In X-Factor it was grotesque... here... well, here also, sometimes, but in a good way.

[Flâneur]

I honestly think the art is simply better than in X-Factor... But I have only seen the previews.

Maybe because of the inker? In X-Factor it was grotesque... here... well, here also, sometimes, but in a good way.

The inking was better too, however I think Stroman simply wasn't right for X-Factor and that's what the core issue was. Everything else just compounded it.

[Stephen Moreno]

I think I need to read this issue again *in store*. When I read it *in store*, I didn't take as much in as I should have.

My wondering is how things happen from the end of this issue to the time in when he became an XSE and how Gambit got to his 'Witness' position of power as seen in uncanny issues.

Also the theory of the X-men in this, they either know who Bishop is, or when he does time travel, he does jump into another reality one step over, so these X-men don't know who he is. He cannot save his future but he can save the future of the 616.

I thought that was Marvel's general theory of time travel when it came to the X-Men. Bishop did it, Cable did it, Rachel did it, it's how they can stop their future but still remain alive in the 616.

[AcesX1X]

i need to get this issue ASAP just to see fat storm.

[timbox]

i need to get this issue ASAP just to see fat storm.

I want to see her too; fat, old, illiterate, and branded.

[The Fury]

I thought that was Marvel's general theory of time travel when it came to the X-Men. Bishop did it, Cable did it, Rachel did it, it's how they can stop their future but still remain alive in the 616.
That is their official stance, yes. Hopefully the writer knows this. Bishop is now just in the 616, well...i say that but I have no idea what's been happening in Cable since I dropped the book. Poor Bishop, once such a great character.

I blame Joey Qs dislike of the time travelers.

[Stephen Moreno]

Oh did I spoil something? My bad. I didn't know anyone cared anything about Bishop but the color of his skin and who his mommy and daddy were. If I did spoil and ruin the issue for you you have my deepest apologizes.

[Stephen Moreno]

That is their official stance, yes. Hopefully the writer knows this. Bishop is now just in the 616, well...i say that but I have no idea what's been happening in Cable since I dropped the book. Poor Bishop, once such a great character.

I blame Joey Qs dislike of the time travelers.


I also blame Joe Q for the lack of fiber in my diet.

I think Bishop's a great character once again, he's relevant, doing something interesting, he matters for once. Also you should give Cable a second chance, it's becoming a really good book, great character interaction and the plot is building to a nice climax.

[AcesX1X]

Oh did I spoil something? My bad. I didn't know anyone cared anything about Bishop but the color of his skin and who his mommy and daddy were. I did spoil and ruin the issue for you you have my deepest apologizes.

no worries. i don't think anyone really cares about bishop either. as you can see, most of the conversation has been about fat storm and gateway.

[f4faith]

Gambit and the witness were turned into 2 separate characters before.

Not necessarily. The Witness was once called LeBeau and Cajun so it would seem he is somehow related and remember that the Witness said he became "unstuck in time" at some point.

All this would take is Gambit having his power reach his full potential again like in his first series. At that level, his powers allowed him and his alternate reality counterpart to travel through time and to other alternate realities and so would be able appear in the different pasts as the Witness. The difference between his time travel and Bishop's/Cable's/Rachels is that the Witness seemed to only be able or decided that observing the past was the way to go.

So if could be Gambit if at some time in the future his full power is reach again and he then starts calling himself the Witness. Given that age and practice could make that happen but that age could also make it less controlable, it would be easy to see Gambit becoming the Witness even with the stupid story shown in the Gambit and Bishop LS. Also Gambit has Bishop's childhood to become the head of theives the Witness is shown to be when Bishop is an adult or is already working on it. Remember that after the Summers Rebellion, mutants did become a large powerful society that policed themselves (where the XSE came from) and the Witness was the head of a large part of that.

SO, The Messiah baby is going to unlock somehow the evolutionary potential that Wanda deleted? Because if not, I do not see how she made possible Bishop being born...

See this is where I don't get what is going on. Let's assume Bishop has a brain and see things from what Bishop's "grandmother" told him - that the Messiah baby does both things - allows mutants to be restored or born again to fix the Wanda mess but then kills a bunch of humans so mutants are hated and feared all the more, making Bishop's time "bad".

Doesn't it makes sense that Bishop can't or shouldn't kill "the Baby" at least until the time she "fixes" the Wanda mess first? Then kill her before she can do the other? That way there are mutants (ie Bishop himself) but maybe he averts the latter? Shouldn't he have bided his time and waited for the right moment when he could have just walked up to her as a "friend" and shot her? Basically what he accused Gambit of being there to do as the "X-Traitor" before the truth of Onslaught? And I don't even want to get into that whole mess not really being an issue if Bishop really came back to stop the Messiah baby not the "X-Traitor" that it seems Bishop made up in his head based on a crappy and pretty sketchy video of Jean Grey.

But Bishop has been trying to shoot the baby from the minute he got his hands on her. To me this is where the story really makes Bishop out to be an idiot.

[The Fury]

I also blame Joe Q for the lack of fiber in my diet.

I think Bishop's a great character once again, he's relevant, doing something interesting, he matters for once. Also you should give Cable a second chance, it's becoming a really good book, great character interaction and the plot is building to a nice climax.
I blame Joey Q for the current ecomonic crisis.

To be honest, I didn't like the art as well as the characterisation of Bishop, it's a vast change in his character. (But it's also to do with lack of money at the moment, I'm cutting back on all books).


See this is where I don't get what is going on. Let's assume Bishop has a brain and see things from what Bishop's "grandmother" told him - that the Messiah baby does both things - allows mutants to be restored or born again to fix the Wanda mess but then kills a bunch of humans so mutants are hated and feared all the more, making Bishop's time "bad".

Doesn't it makes sense that Bishop can't or shouldn't kill "the Baby" at least until the time she "fixes" the Wanda mess first? Then kill her before she can do the other? That way there are mutants (ie Bishop himself) but maybe he averts the latter? Shouldn't he have bided his time and waited for the right moment when he could have just walked up to her as a "friend" and shot her? Basically what he accused Gambit of being there to do as the "X-Traitor" before the truth of Onslaught? And I don't even want to get into that whole mess not really being an issue if Bishop really came back to stop the Messiah baby not the "X-Traitor" that it seems Bishop made up in his head based on a crappy and pretty sketchy video of Jean Grey.

But Bishop has been trying to shoot the baby from the minute he got his hands on her. To me this is where the story really makes Bishop out to be an idiot.
Bishop came back accidentily when following a bunch of criminals through a time portal that you can't go back through, he's stuck here by accident, jsut the things from his legendary past are coming true and he's acting on them.

But that aside, Wanda's thing is already undone as there is a 'new mutant' in the girl that was born. No more mutants does not mean ever in new babys, just Wanda's magic might have only stretched to the current world population removing the genetic code to produce a mutant but as we know there still are mutants and therefore, the possibility also remain in some humans to have mutant offspring.

[rage6839]

I blame Joey Q for the current ecomonic crisis.

To be honest, I didn't like the art as well as the characterisation of Bishop, it's a vast change in his character. (But it's also to do with lack of money at the moment, I'm cutting back on all books).


Bishop came back accidentily when following a bunch of criminals through a time portal that you can't go back through, he's stuck here by accident, jsut the things from his legendary past are coming true and he's acting on them.

But that aside, Wanda's thing is already undone as there is a 'new mutant' in the girl that was born. No more mutants does not mean ever in new babys, just Wanda's magic might have only stretched to the current world population removing the genetic code to produce a mutant but as we know there still are mutants and therefore, the possibility also remain in some humans to have mutant offspring.



Yeah, by the end of the mini I think that is going to be changed as well

[rage6839]

double post

[Stephen Moreno]

I blame Joey Q for the current ecomonic crisis.

To be honest, I didn't like the art as well as the characterisation of Bishop, it's a vast change in his character. (But it's also to do with lack of money at the moment, I'm cutting back on all books).



Yea when they make books $4 a pop, I assume that's about 2.50 pounds where you are give or take right? It's not helping me want to pick up mini's like this.

[Wind Rider]

Ok, I read issue and I now have some questions...

IF this is indeed the 616 timeline as it seems to be with the same Summers Rebellion that happened in the Layla one shot, with Ruby and Cyke 80 years in the future, then how are Storm and Gambit even alive?? They are already late 20's/early 30's now?? I haven't seen any hint of cybernetics on Storm, at least. Gambit just appeared at the end, so who knows with him.

Now I'm wondering what happened to Wakanda that Storm isn't there. Maybe she left since she was a mutant, in order to protect the country or worse, it may have been decimated by this new world. :frown: What happened to T'Challa and her children, if she had any? -- One of those mysteries that will be told over time...

I'm also thinking that with Hope being the one to help restore mutants, but also taking the lives of a million humans, maybe that is a part of her mutant abilities... maybe she has to always bring balance. So restoring anyone with mutant abilities has reprecutions on humans. A cause and effect kind of thing. Beast kind of alluded to that at the end of House of M, something about all of that energy having to go somewhere... I don't have the issue in front of me right now... anyway, just a theory,...

I'm definitely curious to see how this continues to go for Bishop, Shard, and everyone else who's still around.

BTW, Storm did teach Bishop and Shard how to read... at least as much as she could. He knew how to read street signs and said so in the issue. It wasn't like there's a school facility with books and computers in a concentration camp. :rolleyes:

[The Fury]

Yea when they make books $4 a pop, I assume that's about 2.50 pounds where you are give or take right? It's not helping me want to pick up mini's like this.
Yeah, recent exchange rates haven't helped. Used to get my comics for about £1.40 or less at one point, now I'm paying £2.00 or more. I get my comics with a friend importing from LiveWire World. He gets a lot more then me but it ended up after shipping we'd save money, now I really don't save as much.

[The Fury]

Double of the post count ...Yo!

[Leirus]

But that aside, Wanda's thing is already undone as there is a 'new mutant' in the girl that was born. No more mutants does not mean ever in new babys, just Wanda's magic might have only stretched to the current world population removing the genetic code to produce a mutant but as we know there still are mutants and therefore, the possibility also remain in some humans to have mutant offspring.


Nope, Bishop is told very specifically that he was born "Thanks to her". That suggest something very different to just... being the first newborn baby after M-day

[drwho]

any chance that hope could be bishops bological grandmother? maybe bishop literally wants to wipe his existence from the earth.

[AcesX1X]

any chance that hope could be bishops bological grandmother? maybe bishop literally wants to wipe his existence from the earth.

while the second part of that premise does sound fantastic, there are certain posters here who would take heavy issue with that.

[Leirus]

any chance that hope could be bishops bological grandmother? maybe bishop literally wants to wipe his existence from the earth.

Hmmm so either Hope or Storm hooked up with Gateway?

[Prodigy55]

I think Gateway and Hope did the deed, but Storm acted as a surrogate mother.

[Swashbuckler]

I think Gateway and Hope did the deed, but Storm acted as a surrogate mother.

HHHMMM, How does Rachel Summers fit in with all this. She's a stupid time displaced retard, so she must be part of the story/family tree.

[Prodigy55]

HHHMMM, How does Rachel Summers fit in with all this. She's a stupid time displaced retard, so she must be part of the story/family tree.

Rachel probably breast-fed it radioactive dinosaur Phoenix milk.

[drwho]

rachel will never be the number one red head. i think marvel has decided this.

[4sake]

Ok, I read issue and I now have some questions...

IF this is indeed the 616 timeline as it seems to be with the same Summers Rebellion that happened in the Layla one shot, with Ruby and Cyke 80 years in the future, then how are Storm and Gambit even alive?? They are already late 20's/early 30's now?? I haven't seen any hint of cybernetics on Storm, at least. Gambit just appeared at the end, so who knows with him.

Now I'm wondering what happened to Wakanda that Storm isn't there. Maybe she left since she was a mutant, in order to protect the country or worse, it may have been decimated by this new world. :frown: What happened to T'Challa and her children, if she had any? -- One of those mysteries that will be told over time...

I'm also thinking that with Hope being the one to help restore mutants, but also taking the lives of a million humans, maybe that is a part of her mutant abilities... maybe she has to always bring balance. So restoring anyone with mutant abilities has reprecutions on humans. A cause and effect kind of thing. Beast kind of alluded to that at the end of House of M, something about all of that energy having to go somewhere... I don't have the issue in front of me right now... anyway, just a theory,...

I'm definitely curious to see how this continues to go for Bishop, Shard, and everyone else who's still around.

BTW, Storm did teach Bishop and Shard how to read... at least as much as she could. He knew how to read street signs and said so in the issue. It wasn't like there's a school facility with books and computers in a concentration camp. :rolleyes:


I think marvel finally realized the 80 years (as in when Bishop was 1st born) in the future didn't make sense so they recon it to 50 (like it say on the preview for this issue). Or maybe what they meant was that he come from 80 years in the future because he about 30 when comes to the 616 which would also make sense. They could be saying 50 in this preview because he isn't born that when hes 1st born & wen he leaves it 80 years. Or just recon it because they were board like they do alot of things lol But in some ways this recon make so much more sense than 70/80 years like its been in the past. because we all know mutants powers call sometime shorten or lengthen their life span. So It more than likely & possible that that well trained X-men (Storm, Gambit, Jubilee & Cyclops) can live to be in there 70s, 80s, 90s & maybe in there early 100s in a horrible world, but not 120 & 140 unless your Laura or Logan or & got petty good healing factors & etc. Also in it didn't look like & nor say Scott's cybernetics kept him alive because if that was the case why not just get mostly cybernetic body.they just looked like they allowed him to walk & etc since he lost arm & leg so how.


I think marvel finally realized the 80 years (as in when Bishop was 1st born) in the future didn't make sense so they recon it to 50 (like it say on the preview for this issue). Or maybe what they meant was that he come from 80 years in the future because he about 30 when comes to the 616 which would also make sense. They could be saying 50 in this preview because he isn't born that when hes 1st born & wen he leaves it 80 years. Or just recon it because they were board like they do a lot of things lol. But in some ways this recon make so much more sense than 70/80 years like its been in the past. because we all know mutants powers can sometime shorten or lengthen a person life span.

So It more than likely & possible that that well trained X-men (Storm, Gambit, Jubilee & Cyclops & etc) can live to be in there 70s, 80s, 90s & maybe in there early 100s in a horrible world, but not 120 & 140 unless your Laura or Logan or & got petty good healing factors & etc.

Also in it didn't look like & nor say Scott's cybernetics kept him alive because if that was the case why not just get mostly cybernetic body.they just looked like they allowed him to walk & etc since he lost arm & leg so how. Also in that issue when Layla ask Ruby how long her & Scott been hiding out. Ruby says years & that they don't need much food because her dad's mostly on energy cells (so some how he's converting energy to substantiates) & she stay in her Ruby form. But it does stay any where that his cybernetic are whats keeping him alive, but who knows lol. & hey they may recon this later to. They could say that the Summers Rebellion that took place in the Layla Miller 1 & the 1 in life & times of Bishop are in different future or something.

[Leirus]

HHHMMM, How does Rachel Summers fit in with all this. She's a stupid time displaced retard, so she must be part of the story/family tree.

You know? when I read that someone in the issue refered to the Messiah baby as "That red-headed monstruosity" or something lika that, I could not help but think about you...

[Arksy]

It suited the issue and conveyed the emotion. It did not suit X-Factor. That's the main difference.

Maybe, i don't know - i just couldn't appreciate it.

[Choppa]

I did not interpret Hope's birth as having done anything to cause more mutant births, or to undo Wanda's spell, but rather that by simply being born she gave "hope" to mutants that the spell wasn't permanent, and that they wouldn't become extinct. If so, it wouldn't be Hope that caused Bishop's future, but rather actions that were caused by her having been born.

[Pro]

I did not interpret Hope's birth as having done anything to cause more mutant births, or to undo Wanda's spell, but rather that by simply being born she gave "hope" to mutants that the spell wasn't permanent, and that they wouldn't become extinct. If so, it wouldn't be Hope that caused Bishop's future, but rather actions that were caused by her having been born.

Except that Marvel has been clear in pointing out that the mutant race isn't going to survive unless we get at least a couple of thousand back for this generation at the very least. The mutant race needs repowerment or massive mutant baby boom to survive.

Also Cable tells Xavier that he knows the baby is going to ensure the future will not turn out bleaker than even apparently Bishop knows. Which if she was just the first baby birth after M-Day would not be the case.

[marvell2100]

I read the book finally and here's my assessment (forgive me if this is just rehash). The baby, Hope, was not directly responsible for the deaths. It was the fact the the mutant population had become much more manageable for the humans since M day. They were finally getting the upper hand against mutants. With Hopes birth the mutants saw this as a sign that there species would survive but the humans saw this as a threat. They could not allow the mutant population to rise again and decided that the best thing would be to encamp the mutants or to get rid of them altogether which probably led to another major battle between humans and mutants. This probably led to high casualties among mutants but more so upon humans. So imo, Hope is not directly responsible for the deaths of millions but it was just her being born that the mutants saw as hope for their future and the humans saw as a bad omen for their species. Bishop wasn't given the full details as to what happened since the camp was attack and he lost his parents and his grandmother went missing. So his assumptions would be that she is directly responsible for all those deaths and he's trying to prevent that from happening.

[blehbeh]

So now Bishop knew about the Scarlet Witch and her "no more mutants" the entire time? He was so deadset on stopping the X-Traitor once he saw Gambit in the present, but not interested in the Scarlet Witch? He had plenty of team-ups with her before, but not a word? A pretty ridiculous retcon, IMO.

They could have at least had his grandmother's story be a little more vague, such as a simply "a witch cast an evil spell," so it was clear that Bishop didn't really know for sure....

[Til]

So now Bishop knew about the Scarlet Witch and her "no more mutants" the entire time? He was so deadset on stopping the X-Traitor once he saw Gambit in the present, but not interested in the Scarlet Witch? He had plenty of team-ups with her before, but not a word? A pretty ridiculous retcon, IMO.

They could have at least had his grandmother's story be a little more vague, such as a simply "a witch cast an evil spell," so it was clear that Bishop didn't really know for sure....

That's what got me the most too. You'd think he'd be more interested in killing Wanda since if she never cast her spell Hope never would've done whatever it is she does to bring back mutantkind/kill a bunch of humans.

Also, though a bit more minor, it annoyed me how things didn't match up with the Layla Miller one shot. Actually, it didn't even match up with Layla's future parts in Messiah Complex.

[Choppa]

Except that Marvel has been clear in pointing out that the mutant race isn't going to survive unless we get at least a couple of thousand back for this generation at the very least. The mutant race needs repowerment or massive mutant baby boom to survive.

Also Cable tells Xavier that he knows the baby is going to ensure the future will not turn out bleaker than even apparently Bishop knows. Which if she was just the first baby birth after M-Day would not be the case.

I don't get how that contradicts what I said. All the mutants would have to do to create more is procreate. What does Hope's birth have anything to do with that?

Has it actually been said that Hope causes a change in Wanda's spell? I don't read that much x-stuff so I might have missed something somewhere.

[AdamYJ]

I'm glad that Swierczynski did his research. I'd like to know how he'll weave this current incarnation of Bishop with the loyal, respectable one that hunted the X-Men's betrayer.

Y'know, I keep thinking about this when I read the issue. The whole "traitor" thing. Now, I never read the whole "Onslaught" story which supposedly cleared all that up. I was in and out of comics at the time. However, I keep wondering if it's possible that maybe Bishop got his facts mixed up. That the traitor who really destroyed the X-Men was not Onslaught but someone who betrayed the team much later. Someone like . . . himself?

Just a thought.

I don't get how that contradicts what I said. All the mutants would have to do to create more is procreate. What does Hope's birth have anything to do with that?

Because you can't build a castle on the head of a pin.

Basically, it comes down to this. Super-human mutations aren't arising from human parents anymore except for Hope. That's what contributed to most of their numbers. The reason mutants can't save their own race by breeding within their own group more is that the gene pool is too shallow. Eventually, it would lead to inbreeding which would probably lead to malign mutations and birth defects. It's like how they try to save cheetahs with breeding programs but end up with blind cheetahs because the gene pool is too shallow.

Hope's birth shows that nature has found a way past what Wanda did and that more might be born of human parents at some point in the future.

[Til]

^ To add to that, no mutant children had been born to mutant parents either. In Marvel-time, about a year passed without any new mutants being born. Beast had even theorized that in addition to wiping out the X-Gene from 90 odd percent of mutants, Wanda had also completely wiped out the potential of the X-Gene appearing again in a new life. That's why everyone went nuts when they detected Hope's birth.

[4sake]

I have a question does any one else, but me think that the kid Bishop that from X-Men: The Times and Life of Lucas Bishop & the kid Bishop from X-Men: Messiah Complex are to different Bishops.

Here's my reason the kid bishop in Messiah Complex look to be at least a little order looking than the Kid Bishop from The Times and Life of Lucas Bishop.

Also the kid Bishop from Messiah Complex told Layla that his parents were dead, but when he tells her this they both are in the camp & also this take place before The Summers Rebellion because Layla had yet to get Ruby to start it.

While the kid Bishop in Times and Life of Lucas Bishop see's his parents killed because of The Summers Rebellion

So how could the kid Bishop from MC parents be killed because of The Summers Rebellion if it had yet to happen.

So that's why I think its more than one Lucas Bishop.

that is unless at some point he got place in to another camp or something, but Still the kid Bishop from MC just look older to me than the one in Times and Life of Lucas Bishop.

Also I'm starting to think that one Bishop is from about 80 years in the future & the other is from about 50 years into the future.

Also I think I Bishop was raised more by Gambit/ Witness & the other Bishop more by Storm & with Shard.

I starting to think the one from MC was lived longer in the Camp & was raised more so by Storm & with Shard. While the 1 from Times and Life of Lucas Bishop lived on the outside more so with Gambit/ Witness then met back up with his grandmother & sister again.

So all Bishop fans let me know what you think.....

[drwho]

i just chock it up to bad editing and them not bothering or caring to keep things in line with past stories.

[4sake]

i just chock it up to bad editing and them not bothering or caring to keep things in line with past stories.

Yeah could be that also, but I really hope not. I think its much cooler my way. lol :cool:

[Pro]

The reason mutants can't save their own race by breeding within their own group more is that the gene pool is too shallow.

Except that mutants can breed with humans. So as long as they don't breed too much mutant-mutant babies they'd instead get new mutants from human-mutant babies. Plenty of genetic diversity is derived for that if they keep that up a few generations. The difference with actual endangered species is that mutants can breed with humans and get mutant babies.

Don't want to wait? Breed them artificially, eliminate the bad results. Surely anyone from Sinister to Beast can clone and speed up aging.

Surely there is a market for superkids born from artificial insemination, especially among San Franciscans who worship mutants.

"Want to give your child that little extra? We screen for usefull powers before selecting a foetus for you".