Six is not enough?

[TomStillwell]

I'm completely revolted by this story.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/30/octuplets-conceived-throu_n_162571.html

The rundown:

A woman and her six kids ages 2-7, living at home with her parents after declaring bankruptcy, somehow was able to get IVF treatment which produced octuplets.

The father is never mentioned so we don't know if he's in the picture or not. It is mentioned that currently the woman, her kids, and her parents all live together in a 3 bedroom apartment. So now they'll be about seventeen people, fourteen of them kids below the age of seven, all living in a 3 bedroom apartment.

The grandfather is a contractor and headed to Iraq for some time, pressumably to pay for his daughter's litter.

My wife and I did IVF because we couldn't conceive on our own. We went through an interview process with both our insurance company since, they were footing the bill, and the fertility clinic in order to ensure that everything was a good match.

IVF is the ultimate in planned parenthood. It's not something you enter into without a lot of thought and planning.

There are a lot of questions bothering me about this situation.

Who paid for the treatment? I have a really hard time picturing an insurance company covering IVF for someone who already has six kids through natural means.

What kind of interview process did this woman have to go through at the clinic? Weren't any red flags raised by the fact that she has kids already that she can't afford to care for?
I have a huge problem with eight fertilized embryos being implanted knowing that a good chance of multiple births. It just seems grossly irresponsible.

Ethically this matter is strife with debate. I can see this becoming a much talked about issue.

[4thHorseman]

I honestly believe she thought she could get a tv show and make a good deal of money like that other family did.

However, I don't think she realizes her situation is completely different.

[the4thpip]

You have to understand... None of the first six kids liked her cooking. She did not like them odds.

[escapegoat]

Wow... I'm also baffled as to how she was allowed to get IVF treatment.

[spark627]

This story is crazy.

I don't understand how she paid for this or plans to support these children... but then again it sounds like her parents support her. An eye needs to be kept on this woman, she doesn't sound all there.

[Mr.EZ]

The 6 kids were all under the age of 8, the youngest being 2. What doctor in their right mind would agree to give her fertility drugs?

Something stinks here, and it's not half a dozen dirty diapers.

Maybe they're part of that religious movement that believes in having huge litters of kids.

EDIT: And where the hell is the father? The story came to light a few days ago, and there's still no mention of him, or them.

[sunshinegirl]

Wow. I heard about the octuplets. (everyone keeps telling me. "aren't you glad you're only having two!" gah!)

I didn't know she already had 6 naturally concieved children. I mean, it's not my business to question her parenting or her desire to have more children, BUT it is baffling as to how she was able to get IVF. I'm not very familiar with how that process works or any of the inside details. I would imagine that it's a rather legnthy process to get approved. Is the woman able to select the number of embryos to be implanted? and aren't there limits to that number? Eight seems kinda greedy to me! Or is it more like luck of the draw, so to speak? Like, "there's a possibility of a multiple pregnancy if you take this fertility drug." type situation.

...on another note, holy crap! Going through a twin pregnancy and all its complications that go along with it, I can't understand why anyone would willingly and purposefully have eight!

[PatrickG]

Anyone else see Idiocracy?

IMHO, the people who feel the greatest urge to reproduce are often precisely the people who shouldn't.

Personally, I think benefits and support for individuals or couples who struggle to raise 1-2 kids should be raised. Adoption needs more support as well. But having more than two biological children, while not something you can or should ban as a matter of civil rights, should receive no extra funding or support in the form of tax breaks, fertility drugs or benefits.

Everyone should have the right to choose to have a bajillion kids but society shouldn't be responsible in any way if you choose to have more kids than there are parents unless you're actively taking care of the unwanted children already out there.

[Corrina]

Wow... I'm also baffled as to how she was allowed to get IVF treatment.

Because when people have money to pay for medical treatment, doctors aren't allowed to be moral judges.

*(I'm not even sure they should be. I sure don't want doctors judging my decision to say, use birth control, or any number of other things....)

It sounds like this woman made a very bad decision. And people can have opinions on that. But I think it's wrong to say people shouldn't be allowed to do similar things--smacks a little too much of Big Brother for me.

[escapegoat]

Because when people have money to pay for medical treatment, doctors aren't allowed to be moral judges.

*(I'm not even sure they should be. I sure don't want doctors judging my decision to say, use birth control, or any number of other things....)

It sounds like this woman made a very bad decision. And people can have opinions on that. But I think it's wrong to say people shouldn't be allowed to do similar things--smacks a little too much of Big Brother for me.

But how could she afford it, if she declared bankruptcy over a year and half ago?

Plus, as Tom said, there are screening processes when applying IVF treatment. Though it appears that she did some lying to the doctors according to the updates to the report.

[Lester C.]

Idiocy aside you can't start telling women how many kids they can or can't have. In either extreme of saying people MUST reproduce or MUST not reproduce we become a draconian police state. I know this sounds trite but you have both Japan and China on opposite ends of the spectrum flummoxed about how they are going to proceed to regulate their country's birthrate.

[Dark Galaxy]

I know this is stretching a bit, but there could have been extenuating circumstances. I have heard of people, who have had a spouse die or become incapacitated, and then use IVF to have that person's child. I don't know about the six other kids. But, they very well could have been from a different father than the octuplets.

There just has to be something weird like that, it really doesn't make any other logical sense. Then again, a lot of people aren't logical.

I hope the best for all of those kids.

[escapegoat]

It's not so much the question of allowing a woman to have such-and-such amount of children. It's about the responsibility. Especially with no actual father involved. It's coming across as a publicity stunt on the woman's behalf, and at the some time it's a slap in the face of the medical community. The Youtube video indicates that IVF procedures do not usually use more than 2 embryos at a time, so there's obviously something suspicious going on here.

[escapegoat]

I know this is stretching a bit, but there could have been extenuating circumstances. I have heard of people, who have had a spouse die or become incapacitated, and then use IVF to have that person's child. I don't know about the six other kids. But, they very well could have been from a different father than the octuplets.

There just has to be something weird like that, it really doesn't make any other logical sense. Then again, a lot of people aren't logical.

I hope the best for all of those kids.

The report indicates the same sperm donor was used for every children. So this isn't likelly the situation. Though that's not confirmed...

[Solaris]

Considering that this IFV treatment *isn't* available to everyone, that people have to jump through hoops and go through a screening process (and pay a lot of money or have really good insurance) to get it, I see nothing wrong with saying that, since she had 6 children already, she shouldn't have been passed through the screening process. The process is *meant* for people who are having trouble conceiving a child, period. Obviously from her past successes, she had no problem conceiving a child.

It's like saying, "Oh, I don't agree with the screening process prospective transsexuals must go through, before getting gender-change surgery---everyone ought to have the right to get it, if they want, and the government or medical establishment doing a screening process smacks of 'Big Brother.'"

If she wished to have more children than her six, it's pretty clear she had the ability to do so by normal means, and/or to have yet *more* children by artificial insemination (which is apparently how she got her other six kids).

Medical services like IFV and transgender surgery are very serious procedures. The screening process are in place *because* of that, *because* they cost a lot of money for the recipients, *because* it involves a lot of commitment on the part of the patients, and they want to make sure the patients really are prepared to deal with the end result. I don't see it as Big Brother to have these screening processes, anymore than to have screening processes for adoption.

The fact that she *lied* to her doctors, that she's gotten herself pregnant *six* times already by a donor, that she's dependent on her parents, that they've declared bankruptcy already... to me, it stinks of immaturity at best, and a blatant bid for fame and noteriety and the "gifts and attention" that parents of extreme multiple births are given from businesses and individuals. How much do you wanna bet she's spent *hours* watching that TLC show that followed that one family with six or seven at one birth? (The only reason I know about it is because Rin liked watching it when she was down here... I never enjoyed the umpteen eruptions of kid whining and screeching that occurred within EVERY episode. Argh. Like nails on a chalkboard for me.)

Anyway, I think the State DFACs needs to take a very close look at this woman and her family.

And I'll defend that statement by saying they have no problem removing a child from a drug addict, an abusive or neglectful parent, or anyone who proves to be an unfit parent in other ways... I have to wonder just how fit she is, if she's doing things like this. And... where does it stop? Does the state have an obligation to allow her to continue getting pregnant in this fashion, if they decide she *can't* care for the children she already has and must remove them from the home? I know that's getting into very murky waters... but I think it's still worth asking.

Yeah, I'm pissed. There's so many people out there who want to conceive and can't---and this woman lies to do this *after* she's already had six children... and can't support the ones she has already.

[escapegoat]

Considering that this IFV treatment *isn't* available to everyone, that people have to jump through hoops and go through a screening process (and pay a lot of money or have really good insurance) to get it, I see nothing wrong with saying that, since she had 6 children already, she shouldn't have been passed through the screening process. The process is *meant* for people who are having trouble conceiving a child, period. Obviously from her past successes, she had no problem conceiving a child.

It's like saying, "Oh, I don't agree with the screening process prospective transsexuals must go through, before getting gender-change surgery---everyone ought to have the right to get it, if they want, and the government or medical establishment doing a screening process smacks of 'Big Brother.'"

If she wished to have more children than her six, it's pretty clear she had the ability to do so by normal means, and/or to have yet *more* children by artificial insemination (which is apparently how she got her other six kids).

Medical services like IFV and transgender surgery are very serious procedures. The screening process are in place *because* of that, *because* they cost a lot of money for the recipients, *because* it involves a lot of commitment on the part of the patients, and they want to make sure the patients really are prepared to deal with the end result. I don't see it as Big Brother to have these screening processes, anymore than to have screening processes for adoption.

The fact that she *lied* to her doctors, that she's gotten herself pregnant *six* times already by a donor, that she's dependent on her parents, that they've declared bankruptcy already... to me, it stinks of immaturity at best, and a blatant bid for fame and noteriety and the "gifts and attention" that parents of extreme multiple births are given from businesses and individuals. How much do you wanna bet she's spent *hours* watching that TLC show that followed that one family with six or seven at one birth? (The only reason I know about it is because Rin liked watching it when she was down here... I never enjoyed the umpteen eruptions of kid whining and screeching that occurred within EVERY episode. Argh. Like nails on a chalkboard for me.)

Anyway, I think the State DFACs needs to take a very close look at this woman and her family.

And I'll defend that statement by saying they have no problem removing a child from a drug addict, an abusive or neglectful parent, or anyone who proves to be an unfit parent in other ways... I have to wonder just how fit she is, if she's doing things like this. And... where does it stop? Does the state have an obligation to allow her to continue getting pregnant in this fashion, if they decide she *can't* care for the children she already has and must remove them from the home? I know that's getting into very murky waters... but I think it's still worth asking.

Yeah, I'm pissed. There's so many people out there who want to conceive and can't---and this woman lies to do this *after* she's already had six children... and can't support the ones she has already.

Well said Solaris. Once again you hit the nail right on the head! :smile:

(Although I enjoy watching Jon and Kate Plus Eight...just 'cause the kids are cute as beans sometimes...)

[LtMarvel]

I thought the father is a contrator working in Iraq.

And yes, this is America, and reproductive rights are for the individual. No matter how foolish the individual is. The report on NPR made it seem like the woman didn't expect the results of her treatment.

----------

Here is a much different story (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100027464), yet they still end up with 12 kids.

[escapegoat]

I thought the father is a contrator working in Iraq.

And yes, this is America, and reproductive rights are for the individual. No matter how foolish the individual is. The report on NPR made it seem like the woman didn't expect the results of her treatment.

----------

Here is a much different story (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100027464), yet they still end up with 12 kids.

No...that's the grandfather going back to Iraq.

And since 8 embryos were used instead of the usual 2-limit that's used in this type of IVF procedure, you haveta wonder what kinda schenanagans are going on here.

Plus, this isn't so much of a case of it being a right to bear that many children, but the responsibility of having to care for that many children as a single mom. Sure, there'll be help from the grandmother to care for them, but considering the accomadations they're currently living and the bankruptcy issue...

[Dark Galaxy]

The report indicates the same sperm donor was used for every children. So this isn't likelly the situation. Though that's not confirmed...


Interesting.

I too am not in favor of telling someone how many kids they can or can't have. I just think that it's going to be rough for those poor babies.

[Cam63]

I'm hoping for the best for the children.

...all 20-odd the silly cow of a mother will eventually have.

[Kalen O.]

No...that's the grandfather going back to Iraq.

And since 8 embryos were used instead of the usual 2-limit that's used in this type of IVF procedure, you haveta wonder what kinda schenanagans are going on here.

Plus, this isn't so much of a case of it being a right to bear that many children, but the responsibility of having to care for that many children as a single mom. Sure, there'll be help from the grandmother to care for them, but considering the accomadations they're currently living and the bankruptcy issue...

Right. And again, the bigger point is we're not talking about a NATURAL pregnancy. NO ONE in this thread is advocating actual population laws, nobody's talking about forced vasectomies and tube tie-ing in order to stop further child bearing and infringe upon the right to procreate......we're talking about giving fertility treatment to a woman who already has six kids and with bankruptcy, limited means to care for them.....so that she can have more mouths to feed and stretch her resources even further. She can continue having children on her own all she wants, and while we might criticize that, I don't think any of us would say someone should stop her....but that doesn't mean she should be helped by third parties with artificial means. It is a totally separate issue.

And hell, given exactly HOW expensive IVF can be, added in with the bankruptcy and living at home and HER father going back to Iraq to help support the babies.....spending that kind of money (however she got it, because I really can't see her insurance covering it considerating all the factors) on getting pregnant again instead of on the six kids she already has seems incredibly reckless and irresponsible to me, and sends up a red flag as to out of whack priorities. As a society with WAY more children without homes that we know what to do with, we make prospective adoptive parents (especially single ones) jump through hoops before letting them take even a single child home. Why shouldn't similar standards apply here? Again, not someone getting pregnant and giving birth on her own. We're not talking about population laws or potential population laws, even remotely.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I tell ya....with welfare and food stamps this woman is really cashing in. I mean MEGA BUCKS. If there are fathers who do pay child support the kids are this womans money makers. :wink:

[Black Atom]

Everyone knows eight is enough.


Anyone else see Idiocracy?

IMHO, the people who feel the greatest urge to reproduce are often precisely the people who shouldn't.

Well, it's really that people of higher income brackets/education levels do stuff like use protection and generally wait longer to marry and have kids (usually because they're finishing school/establishing their careers).


Personally, I think benefits and support for individuals or couples who struggle to raise 1-2 kids should be raised. Adoption needs more support as well. But having more than two biological children, while not something you can or should ban as a matter of civil rights, should receive no extra funding or support in the form of tax breaks, fertility drugs or benefits.

Everyone should have the right to choose to have a bajillion kids but society shouldn't be responsible in any way if you choose to have more kids than there are parents unless you're actively taking care of the unwanted children already out there.

The trouble there is that by cutting off funds you're only punishing kids for their parents behavior.

[Solaris]

Interesting.

I too am not in favor of telling someone how many kids they can or can't have. I just think that it's going to be rough for those poor babies.

Let me say it again:

Folks, we aren't talking "babies by intercourse."

We aren't even talking "babies by artificial insemination."

Both those methods *usually* only result in one baby at a time... as, from what I gather, her previous six children came from (six individual pregnancies).

No one is saying that she cannot continue getting pregnant by either of these methods. (Though I certainly think she's an idiot if she does, because she already doesn't have the means to care for the 14 children she now has.)

No, the method we're talking about is IVF. A method where prospective parents ARE TOLD ALL THE TIME that they can't have babies, or they can't have more than *x" amount of babies at a time... both via the screening process.

Humans aren't dogs that can just whip out a litter of puppies. There are very real risks to a human bearing three or more babies in a single pregnancy... and those risks go up exponentially with every additional baby in the womb.

That is part of why the doctors who do these procedures screen the *potential* parents. And that is why, often, they limit the number of embryos they will attempt to implant. That is why, in earlier cases where they *did* use more embryos, and *all* or nearly all of them implanted, that some doctors advised removing some of the implanted fetuses---because of the health risks to the mother and the babies. I gather that some women went with this, and some didn't. Often, when there are five or more fetuses, one or more of them WILL die---sometimes ALL of them.

IF any survive, the medical team ends up C-sectioning at some point, because the stress of childbirth for that many babies can *also* kill the mother and/or several of the babies. And, because humans aren't built to carry so many, they have to remove them ahead of term---which means a long stay in ICU for the infants---and again, often one or more of them will die. Again, sometimes all of them.

In the case of IVF procedures, it's not a question of "oh, we're telling you that you can't have 'x' number of children"---it's a case of "we don't want to push the envelope on the chances of a healthy outcome for everyone involved."

The doctor(s) who implanted EIGHT embryos in this woman were stupid. The WOMAN was stupid to lie to them about her fertility... not just because lying to your doctor is a dumb idea, but also because she was taking away time and resources from someone else who truly *is* infertile, who truly *does* need and want this treatment.

If she wanted more children, why didn't she continue on with the method that had served her SIX TIMES BEFORE: artificial insemination? Why did she pursue the IVF procedure? She obviously didn't NEED it.

And why did she, and they, go for implanting EIGHT embryos?

There's a lot more going on in this story than we've seen so far... but from what we *have* seen so far, I think it's pretty obvious that she just didn't want to *wait* to have a large number of children, and to continue pursuing it one child at a time... and maybe, she was going for the "multiple birth" noteriety. I also think the doctors were dumb for putting that many embryos in her at once. I *don't* think that's the standard procedure anymore... *because* of the problems they run into when so many *do* implant at once.

[Dark Galaxy]

Let me say it again:


The doctor(s) who implanted EIGHT embryos in this woman were stupid. The WOMAN was stupid to lie to them about her fertility... not just because lying to your doctor is a dumb idea, but also because she was taking away time and resources from someone else who truly *is* infertile, who truly *does* need and want this treatment...(snip)


(snip)...And why did she, and they, go for implanting EIGHT embryos?


That is the part I can't get over.

Why eight?

I started thinking to myself that if I was in that situation, there is no way I would have them implant more embryos than I could handle. Even if it meant spending the money to do another cycle, if this one didn't work. Because there IS that possibility that they will all implant.

The whole thing is just insane.

[section 8]

IMHO, the people who feel the greatest urge to reproduce are often precisely the people who shouldn't.
.

That ain't no opinion Bubba, That is a fact of life!

[Reverend Smooth]

I tell ya....with welfare and food stamps this woman is really cashing in. I mean MEGA BUCKS.
She'll just be getting by, unless she neglects the kids and doesn't feed or clothe them. Food stamps and welfare are not very much and kids are expensive.

On the other hand, taxpayers should not have to foot this woman's irresponsibility. People are poor enough without having to pay for the dozen kids of a woman who can't keep her womb closed.

[TomStillwell]

My wife and I did IVF twice. The first time did not take and it nearly broke our hearts. The second time around they implanted three embryos and one took, producing my daughter Miranda.

IVF is expensive, costing around $15,000 a cycle. Our insurance was only willing to cover three cycles and then we would have been on our own.

It is also a very painful process, both emotionally and physically.

IVF is a sort of human made miracle. You can walk into any fertility clinic in the world and they'll have a wall full of photos filled with smiling families created by this wonder of science. It is a special thing.

This woman has selfishly made a mockery of this gift without a care for the children born to her. It is disgusting.

[Darediva]

Irresponsible.

[Spike-X]

Wow... I'm also baffled as to how she was allowed to get IVF treatment.
Because she has the right to have as many kids as she damn well wants, even though she has no way of supporting them without government handouts, and don't you dare try to tell her otherwise!

[Spike-X]

Because when people have money to pay for medical treatment, doctors aren't allowed to be moral judges.

*(I'm not even sure they should be. I sure don't want doctors judging my decision to say, use birth control, or any number of other things....)

Choosing to not have children, and taking responsible steps to ensure that doesn't happen, is a lot different from popping out over a dozen kids when you have no way to support them.


It sounds like this woman made a very bad decision. And people can have opinions on that. But I think it's wrong to say people shouldn't be allowed to do similar things--smacks a little too much of Big Brother for me.

I disagree. I think if a woman has no fertility issues, and already has six kids to prove it, and if she has no way of supporting those children, let alone any more that come along, then damn right she should be denied access to IVF treatment.

[Spike-X]

I tell ya....with welfare and food stamps this woman is really cashing in. I mean MEGA BUCKS.

Sorry to break it to ya Super, but no she ain't. The whole idea of the 'Welfare Queen' with the Cadillac and the fur coat is a myth. A lie.

[Paradox]

Spike-X gets a little Big Brother for me:

I disagree. I think if a woman has no fertility issues, and already has six kids to prove it, and if she has no way of supporting those children, let alone any more that come along, then damn right she should be denied access to IVF treatment.

I'd never go that far. Denying her welfare? Perhaps making it a child protection issue? Sure. Legislation governing what legal medical procedures people may use? Nope, way too far in my book.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Sorry to break it to ya Super, but no she ain't. The whole idea of the 'Welfare Queen' with the Cadillac and the fur coat is a myth. A lie.

Ha ha .... well I can't see why or how this woman would do this then . Beyond the idea to get a crappy reality TV Show. I mean there had to be more behind this foolishness than trying to get a crappy show. :wink:

[Paradox]

SUPERECWFAN1 overestimates the dumb:

Ha ha .... well I can't see why or how this woman would do this then . Beyond the idea to get a crappy reality TV Show. I mean there had to be more behind this foolishness than trying to get a crappy show. :wink:

Maybe, maybe not. Occam's Razor works pretty well on the obviously stupid.

[Spike-X]

I'd never go that far. Denying her welfare? Perhaps making it a child protection issue? Sure. Legislation governing what legal medical procedures people may use? Nope, way too far in my book.
I can see it being quite the legal minefield, that's for sure.

I guess it's like when people (such as myself) suggest some kind of licensing system to decide if people should be allowed to have kids or not - great idea in theory, utterly unworkable in practice.

[Paradox]

I'm with you, there, Spikey. I often have thoughts of "they should put birth control in the water and make you apply for a permit to have kids", but...no...just doesn't work outside a totalitarian regime, and they never stop at "that one thing".

[Libaax]

I feel sorry for the kids. She cant support 6 but gets 8 more.


Thats sick and unfair against people who cant get kids without extra help.

Her parents should have stopped her. You cant support your kid,spoil her by paying everything for her to let her ruin her kids life.

Horrible parenting. People like this women are so selfish that you almost wish couldnt get kids in any way.....

[Solaris]

I can see it being quite the legal minefield, that's for sure.

I guess it's like when people (such as myself) suggest some kind of licensing system to decide if people should be allowed to have kids or not - great idea in theory, utterly unworkable in practice.

Me too---because while it's a good idea at the inception... where would it end? Badly, I think.

Side note: some countries are encouraging their people to have more children, because the birth rate is so low they foresee major issues in a few years, with a large elderly class, and not enough of age in the working class. Japan is one.

In Japan, apparently a lot of it is just that people work such long hours, it's a detriment to making babies. (Not kidding.) Canon is doing something about that---besides offering extras to people who have a baby, they've picked a couple days per week where they literally shut down the corporate office building (power, heat, everything) to make employees go home from work by 5:30pm.

Now *there's* a novel concept! :biggrin:

[Lester C.]

I also feel sorry for the woman and her family. I had to baby sit a 1 1/2 year old for a few days, watching him for a few hours here and there, and holy shit was it hard work. I can't imagine what's it's like watching eight of them 24/7.

[TomStillwell]

Originally Posted by Corrina:
Because when people have money to pay for medical treatment, doctors aren't allowed to be moral judges.

*(I'm not even sure they should be. I sure don't want doctors judging my decision to say, use birth control, or any number of other things....)

Maybe not but they are allowed to judge the ethics of their actions. Almost uniformly fertility experts implant no more than three embryos at a time. Even then they only implant three in special situations. Implanting more than three endangers the mother and possible children due to the potential for severe multiple births.

These eight children were born extremely premature and need around the clock medical care. They seem to be doing fine but it could have gone the other way.

I see this as massive irresponsibility on the part of both the mother and her fertility doctor.

[Stressfactor]

There was a report on NPR about a year ago on IVF and yeah like Tom said, it said that fertility doctors WILL NOT implant more than three embryos. Two is the usual number. I don't know what kind of stupid fertility doctor who would implant eight.

Also, while people have been calling this woman "Stupid" I think it more probable that she is actually mentally ill. To do what she has done smacks of those people who do things like hoard cats. Generally, those people are eventually found to have a clinical mental illness and I wouldn't be surprised if someone took a look at this woman and discovered that she had one too. In which case seeing to it that she got help would be a better solution than simply castigating her.

[Grazzt]

Because when people have money to pay for medical treatment, doctors aren't allowed to be moral judges.

*(I'm not even sure they should be. I sure don't want doctors judging my decision to say, use birth control, or any number of other things....)

Does that argument even apply in this case? She's gone bankrupt. Did she actually have the money or did she just lie to get the procedure done on the government's tab?

[Paradox]

We don't know. The hospital is releasing nothing and the people in the house won't talk. We're operating on a whole lot of speculation, although there's a lot here one can put together without being Sherlock Holmes.

[TomStillwell]

Does that argument even apply in this case? She's gone bankrupt. Did she actually have the money or did she just lie to get the procedure done on the government's tab?

Well, if she didn't have some way to pay for it privately an insurance company could have covered it and not the government.

[Flâneur]

What we learned is that her whole neighborhood is buzzing about the possibility that the 33-year-old mother used the same sperm donor to conceive the octuplets AND her other six children.


In an exclusive interview with momlogic one neighbor, who asked to remain anonymous, revealed that the very pregnant young mom was THE hot topic of conversation at the neighborhood Christmas party. He says "From what I heard she likes kids, she wants a jillion kids. She even lied to the doctors who impregnated her."

When asked if he knew who the father of the baby is, the neighbor said, "She is single. She used a sperm donor, someone she knew, who donated sperm a long time ago. He donated the sperm for the first six kids and she used his frozen sperm for these one."

Well, that's odd. If she's been using IVF for the first six pregnancies (or less with multiple births?) then what changed so that this time she's having eight in one go?

I'm also wondering if it actually was IVF considering how in popular media, the IVF, ICSI and artificial insemination procedures are usually conflated and most of this article is based on the speculation of neighbours rather than the family or the fertility clinic. If it were artificial insemination and this just happened (more likely, considering the three embryo limit) then it might be a bit more excusable.

[TomStillwell]

Ugh. The story gets even worse...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-octuplets,0,720132.story

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Ugh. The story gets even worse...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-octuplets,0,720132.story

From the article she is abusing the system and getting paid for it as she claims. Her poor mom has no one to blame except herself since she should have kicked her out years ago.

[TomStillwell]

From the article she is abusing the system and getting paid for it as she claims. Her poor mom has no one to blame except herself since she should have kicked her out years ago.

No, the article has a secondhand account of her supposedly saying that she's getting paid. That's heresay and must be discounted until backed up by fact.

[TCJohnson]

I was listening to some fertility doctors on CNN.

They said that so far only the woman's mother has said that it was IVF. The fertility doctors all concluded that the woman most likely got fertility medications off the internet. The producer of the segment said that it took her about 30 minutes of searching on the internet to find the meds and she ordered them for less than $100.


There was a report on NPR about a year ago on IVF and yeah like Tom said, it said that fertility doctors WILL NOT implant more than three embryos. Two is the usual number. I don't know what kind of stupid fertility doctor who would implant eight.

The fertility doctors said that if the woman is over 35 they might go with three or four embryos because they are at higher risk for it not working. Some doctors have gone as high as five but that is very controversial.

[cedardryad]

Wow. I mean I thought I was struggling with one and another on the way. I mean I can put food on the table and such. But there is no way I would put myself and others through that.

As for Japan and China. i know China lifted their ban. You are now allowed 2 kids. Japan has the problem where everyone is going to Tokyo. There is a very low birthrate in the rural areas. So many people are leaving to get bigger, better jobs. Also, with the fact that women are getting married later to retain their freedoms in a sense. They don't have the same rights for women there as they do here. So in order to stay in the work force they stay single or if they marry they wait longer to have kids.
I say send her litter to rural Japanese areas so they can repopulate. That is of course if they don't mind them there. :biggrin:

[CutterMike]

(...)
As for Japan and China. i know China lifted their ban. You are now allowed 2 kids.
(...)

Actually, China's "one child" rule has, apparently, always had some loopholes in it, but most of the current "relaxation" in the policy -- or, at least, most of the publicity about it -- has come as a result of the earthquake last year. Parents who lost a (legal) child in the 'quake could obtain permission to have another, or make an "illegal" child "legal".

More info here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/26/earthquake-prompts-chines_n_103559.html).

[shrike]

You know, I'm all about freedom and liberty, etc etc etc... but I'm also of the firm mind that if you can't feasibly raise a child financially you have no business making one.

There is a big difference with 'making due' and 'no chance in hell I can afford this'.

[TomStillwell]

You know, I'm all about freedom and liberty, etc etc etc... but I'm also of the firm mind that if you can't feasibly raise a child financially you have no business making one.

There is a big difference with 'making due' and 'no chance in hell I can afford this'.

I agree.

My wife and I were watching that show 17 and Growing Yesterday with the family that has 18 kids now. Personally I think that's crazy. But you know what? Those people take really good care of those kids. They are equip financially and emotionally to care for that amount of children. If they can raise those kids on their own dime and provide for them across the board, I say go nuts having babies.

[escapegoat]

I agree.

My wife and I were watching that show 17 and Growing Yesterday with the family that has 18 kids now. Personally I think that's crazy. But you know what? Those people take really good care of those kids. They are equip financially and emotionally to care for that amount of children. If they can raise those kids on their own dime and provide for them across the board, I say go nuts having babies.

I totally agree. Some people think they're crazy having a family that big, but they sustain and support themselves well. Same with John and Kate Plus Eight, which is similiar to this situation because of the IVF treatment involved. Sure, both families get the extra perks with having a TV show, but they're stable families. A single unwed mom who's constantly having children with no partner for support? Not good for the children involved.

[beetlebum]

Delete.

Double-posty goodness!

[beetlebum]

My mother told me about this story while we were driving home from one of my Thursday night classes.

At first, I couldn't see what the big deal was, that was until it was revealed that she had had six children prior to the birth of the octuplets.

Awhile ago, I became interested in the subject of bio-ethics. I thought it might be interesting to compare the principles found in bio-ethics to this situation here.

Those who are in the medical profession have a "prima facie" duty to both benefit the patient, and to avoid harming the patent. However, in the actual situation, one must balance the demands of these particular principles by determining which (principles carry more weight) in a particular case.

Two of the four main principles of bioethics are:

1. Respect for Autonomy

Any notion of moral decision making assumes that rational agents are involved in making informed, and voluntary decisions.

In terms of health care, respect for the autonomy of the patient, would - in common parlance - mean that the patient has the capacity to act intentionally, with understanding, and without controlling influences that would mitigate against a free, and voluntary act.

This principle is the basis for the practice of "informed consent" in the physician/patient transaction regarding health care. However, to balance that out, there's:

2. The Principle of Nonmaleficence

The principle of nonmaleficence requires that an individual does not intentionally create a needless harm, or injury to the patient, either through acts of commission, or omission. In common language, it is considered negligence if one imposes a careless or unreasonable risk of harm upon another.

Providing a proper standard of care that avoids or minimizes the risk of harm is supported not only by commonly held moral convictions, but by the laws of society. In a professional model of care one may be morally and legally blameworthy if one fails to meet the standards of due care. The legal criteria for determining negligence are as follows:

1. the professional must have a duty to the affected party
2. the professional must breach that duty
3. the affected party must experience a harm; and
4. the harm must be caused by the breach of duty.

This principle affirms the need for medical competence. It is clear that medical mistakes occur, however, this principle articulates a fundamental commitment on the part of health care professionals to protect their patients from harm.

So while the doctor, in this case, did respect the patient's right for autonomy, he may have neglected, and violated the principle of nonmaleficence, as allowing the mother to have that many children may cause more harm, than good.

There's also the question of the "principle of beneficence", which states that the duty of health care providers is to benefit the patient, as well as to take positive steps to prevent, and remove harm, from the patient.

So, with all of this taken into consideration, it's really hard to argue that the doctor acted in the patient's best interest (not that anyone here is doing that). So while doctors as moral judges may lead to gray areas and slippery slopes, as Tom said, they are allowed to judge the ethics of their actions.

And so that brings us to The Principle Of Justice:

Justice in health care is usually defined as a form of fairness, which implies the fair distribution of goods in society and requires that we look at the role of entitlement. The question of distributive justice also seems to hinge on the fact that some goods and services are in short supply, there is not enough to go around, thus some fair means of allocating scarce resources must be determined.

If we were to go by John Rawls and his concept of the "natural" or "social lottery" (for which the affected individual is not to blame), then the rest of us have an obligation to help even the playing field.

But the thing is though, I'm not sure all of the parties involved in this situation are "blameless", and I don't fancy mine much when it comes to the fact that she's going to be (potentially) making all of this money through television interviews, book deals, and other ways to make cash off of her irresponsibility.


I'd never go that far. Denying her welfare? Perhaps making it a child protection issue? Sure. Legislation governing what legal medical procedures people may use? Nope, way too far in my book.

I agree with this.

EDIT: It turns out that I WAS RIGHT.

[TCJohnson]

So while the doctor, in this case, did respect the patient's right for autonomy, he may have neglected, and violated the principle of nonmaleficence, as allowing the mother to have that many children may cause more harm, than good.


This is assuming, of course, that a doctor was involved.

[beetlebum]

This is assuming, of course, that a doctor was involved.

Um, last time I checked, embryologists are doctors.

And IVF is administered by doctors (http://www.locateadoc.com/surgery-guide.cfm/infertility-ivf/in-vitro-fertilization-ivf); so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

[Alan Lynch]

Um, last time I checked, embryologists are doctors.

And IVF is administered by doctors (http://www.locateadoc.com/surgery-guide.cfm/infertility-ivf/in-vitro-fertilization-ivf); so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
I think he's saying that there's still so much confusion over how this happened that it's possible she did this herself. Somehow. Not saying I agree, but I think that's what TC's getting at.

[beetlebum]

I think he's saying that there's still so much confusion over how this happened that it's possible she did this herself. Somehow. Not saying I agree, but I think that's what TC's getting at.

Okay, thanks.

[TCJohnson]

Yeah. I was listening to some fertility doctors on CNN and they were all saying that a lot of the drugs they use are available online for less than $150, and many of these drugs can increase how many eggs a woman can drop at a time.

I mean, with just a little bit of seaching I found this (http://www.rxtank.com/products.php?alpha=clomid&c=5&kw=clomid&gclid=CLTO08DIwJgCFQFqxwod8ya8cg) and this. (http://www.your-onlinepharmacy.com/dr/n/Bromocriptine.shtml)

The doctors on CNN said that it is more likely that a woman who is having trouble making ends meet would get fertility drugs off the internet than it is for her to afford a doctor to perform IVF treatment using 8 embryos.
So far the only person to say it was IVF is the grandmother of the octuplets and she has been making a lot of interesting statements.

Not saying that is what happened since none of us know, but it is a likely possiblity.

[TCJohnson]

Um, last time I checked, embryologists are doctors.

And IVF is administered by doctors (http://www.locateadoc.com/surgery-guide.cfm/infertility-ivf/in-vitro-fertilization-ivf); so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

There is a really good chance that my fiancee and I will be visitng an embryologist in the near future so I wouldn't be putting them down.



EDIT: Alan did bring up a good point that at this interval, we're not sure if a doctor was involved.

So I should add that my scenario assumes that there was one involved in this instance.

Excellent point, I am glad he brought it up! :D

[TomStillwell]

Yeah. I was listening to some fertility doctors on CNN and they were all saying that a lot of the drugs they use are available online for less than $150, and many of these drugs can increase how many eggs a woman can drop at a time.

I mean, with just a little bit of seaching I found this (http://www.rxtank.com/products.php?alpha=clomid&c=5&kw=clomid&gclid=CLTO08DIwJgCFQFqxwod8ya8cg) and this. (http://www.your-onlinepharmacy.com/dr/n/Bromocriptine.shtml)

The doctors on CNN said that it is more likely that a woman who is having trouble making ends meet would get fertility drugs off the internet than it is for her to afford a doctor to perform IVF treatment using 8 embryos.
So far the only person to say it was IVF is the grandmother of the octuplets and she has been making a lot of interesting statements.

Not saying that is what happened since none of us know, but it is a likely possiblity.

Fertility drugs would make her produce more eggs. They wouldn't then fertilize those eggs with viable sperm and magically implant multiple embryos into her womb.

The drugs would only give her a better chance of her conceiving through intercourse which, from all accounts, she wasn't able to do since her other kids are all IVF produced.

[TCJohnson]

Fertility drugs would make her produce more eggs. They wouldn't then fertilize those eggs with viable sperm and magically implant multiple embryos into her womb.

The drugs would only give her a better chance of her conceiving through intercourse which, from all accounts, she wasn't able to do since her other kids are all IVF produced.

If these kids are IVF produced...no evidence of that other than her mother's word and this woman isn't all together there.

I mean, seriously, this woman is supporting 5 kids and living at home and found the money for a doctor to do an IVF for a 6th....leave alone 7-14?

These drugs, used regularly, increases the chance for multiples. These drugs abused?

Her getting fertility drugs over the internet and telling her parents that there is no father seems more likely to me.

[Corrina]

Yes, I think fertility drugs and then lying about IVF is probably the case here.

The woman is pathological--but instead of hoarding cats, she's hoarding children.

[TomStillwell]

If these kids are IVF produced...no evidence of that other than her mother's word and this woman isn't all together there.

I mean, seriously, this woman is supporting 5 kids and living at home and found the money for a doctor to do an IVF for a 6th....leave alone 7-14?

These drugs, used regularly, increases the chance for multiples. These drugs abused?

Her getting fertility drugs over the internet and telling her parents that there is no father seems more likely to me.

If you knew how the drugs actually worked it wouldn't seem all that likely.

[TCJohnson]

Maybe you can explain it to me...as well as these people:


That means that the pregnancy was likely the result of powerful infertility medications like Pergonal. Pergonal stimulated the ovaries to produce more eggs in any given cycle. For women who typically don’t produce any eggs at all, Pergonal can coax the ovaries to produce one of two eggs. The possibility exists that more eggs could be produced in a cycle, so each cycle is monitored carefully with daily ultrasounds to make sure that there are not too many follicles developing. If the number of follicles is dangerously high, the doctor will not use medications to trigger ovulation, and will not perform artificial insemination during the cycle.

http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=96230


Indeed, that was reproductive endocrinologist Terrence Lee's first thought as well: "It is feasible to think that somebody injected herself with medication, unmonitored and unaware of exactly how many follicles she was developing. Therefore it would be more understandable that she subjected herself to the risk of octuplets when in fact, she thought she had much fewer eggs."


http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/02/how-was-nadya-suleman-impregnated-with.html



Because fertility treatments are pricey and generally not covered by insurance, women go to great lengths to get drugs without paying to see a doctor, says Pamela Madsen, executive director of the American Infertility Association in New York City. The price was right on this batch of Clomid, a synthetic hormone that stimulates ovulation and is one of the cheaper fertility drugs. But "access to infertility medications without physician supervision is a really bad idea," says Madsen. Taking Clomid unmonitored may decrease the odds of getting pregnant while increasing the chance of risky multiple births and even cancer if the drug is overused, she adds. "The risk is very real."


http://www.drugstory.org/feature/mailorderdanger.asp


I actually do my research before opening my mouth. My fiancee has a condition that will make it difficult to get pregnant, so I have been doing a lot of research on this, including the chance of having multiple children.

[TomStillwell]

Maybe you can explain it to me...as well as these people:



http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=96230



http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/02/how-was-nadya-suleman-impregnated-with.html




http://www.drugstory.org/feature/mailorderdanger.asp


I actually do my research before opening my mouth. My fiancee has a condition that will make it difficult to get pregnant, so I have been doing a lot of research on this, including the chance of having multiple children.

And I've actually gone through two IVF treatments with my wife.

The powerful fertility drugs these experts are talking about are administered in two cycles. One of the cycles consists of daily shot with a four inch long needle thick enough to inject an oil like medication. This injection is made into the buttock because that is the only area of a body with enough fatty tissue to take such a shot. It is a very painful shot, bruising in fact, which requires icing before and after administration. This shot is given once a day over a month long period. I was hard for me to put my wife through that much pain. It caused her agony. My wife was black and blue for months.

It was so painful in fact that after our first IVF treatment failed we were close to not going through it again. The doctors assured us that the next treatment would produce results so we went ahead.

So yeah, having first hand knowledge of how the entire process works and not just from doing a few Google searches, I find it very unlikely that this single woman has been injecting herself in the ass for years to produce over a dozen kids.

[Corrina]

If she's batty enough to want more kids after having six kids, I think she's crazy enough to inject herself with very painful drugs to have more.

Of course, it's all speculation. I do feel bad for those kids, though.

[TCJohnson]

Been finding several reports of women getting these drugs off the internet and abusing them, resulting in quintuplets, sexuplets and sectuplets...

[TomStillwell]

What I'm saying is these are not shots you can give yourself. Imagine reaching around to your butt cheek and jabbing it with an icepick once a day for a month. These shots require someone else to carefully inject them and even then they hurt like a mother.

Someone had to have helped if this is the case.

[Darediva]

Have you seen where this woman has hired a publicist already? And that the major donors to multiple births are NOT running to her aid? One report said that she has delusions of being the guru of a childcare talk show. The woman is worse than a hoarder. She's just f'ing crazy.

Link to news videos here. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets)

[Sally Sensational]

I want to put in something here, just to balance the scales a bit. I read an interview with the mom - with input from the daughter, it appeared - (I think it was on CNN) that said the octuplets' mother was only trying to have one baby.

I believe the tagline was "Mom wanted 'one more girl'".

According to the article, Nadya Suleman (she has a name, you know) was trying to have one more baby and got more than she bargained for. IIRC, her doctors offered selective reduction and she refused based on moral grounds. Also, the family lives in a single family home with a yard, not an apartment as previously reported.

Now, I don't know about whether she used IVF - which seems more and more unlikely - or fertility drugs, but I'm not gonna quibble with a mother's right to have one more baby. Or her right to refuse to abort the others when she found out she was having a super-multiple pregnancy.

But I do think there may be a side to this story we're not hearing because a very busy Mom is spending as many hours as she can hovering over 8 incubators in a neonatal intensive care unit. Especially as, given the huge number of "leaks" we're already hearing, none of them has come from anyone who's mentioned anything about welfare.

[TomStillwell]

Oh for Heaven's sake...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/05/nadya-suleman-octuplets-m_n_164372.html


The veil of secrecy octuplets' mother Nadya Suleman shrouded herself in for more than a week was lifted Thursday with the release of public documents showing that the 33-year-old struggled with depression for years until she finally began to realize her childhood dream of having a huge family.

Children are not Prozac.

[CutterMike]

(...)
Children are not Prozac.

Although they can be precursors.

[TomStillwell]

And more of the story unfolds...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/10/octuplet-mom-nadya-sulema_n_165508.html


LOS ANGELES — The mother of octuplets was implanted with those embryos at a Beverly Hills fertility clinic run by a well-known _ and controversial _ specialist who pioneered a method of implantation. Dr. Michael Kamrava's name emerged Monday as a result of an interview aired Monday on NBC with Nadya Suleman, who gave birth to eight babies Jan. 26.


In the NBC interview, Suleman did not identify her doctor by name, but said that she went to the West Coast IVF Clinic in Beverly Hills _ of which Kamrava is director _ and that all 14 of her children were conceived with help from the same doctor. In 2006, Los Angeles TV station KTLA ran a story on infertility that showed Kamrava treating Suleman and discussing embryo implantation.


An in-vitro procedure typically costs between $8,000 and $15,000. Asked on NBC how she was able to afford the treatments, Suleman said she had saved money and used some of the more than $165,000 in disability payments she received after being injured in a 1999 riot at a state mental hospital where she worked.

She also told NBC that she does not intend to go on welfare, though her publicist confirmed Monday that Suleman already receives food stamps and child disability payments to help feed and care for her six other children.

Suleman's publicist Mike Furtney said she receives $490 a month in food stamps. Furtney said Suleman did not want to disclose the nature of her children's disabilities or the nature of those payments.

"In her view these are just payments made for people with legitimate needs and are not, in her view, welfare," Furtney said. "She just believes that there are programs for people with needs and she and her children qualify for some of them."



In an interview with celebrity news Web site RadarOnline.com, Angela Suleman said she and Nadya's father pleaded with her first fertility doctor not to treat their daughter again. She said her daughter went to another doctor.

"I'm really angry about that," Angela Suleman said of the doctor's decision to perform the procedure. "She already has six beautiful children. Why would she do this? I'm struggling to look after her six. We had to put in bunk beds, feed them in shifts and there's children's clothing piled all over the house."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-me-octuplets10-2009feb10,0,7796611.story


The Beverly Hills doctor whose fertility treatment led to the birth of Nadya Suleman's octuplets -- and her six previous children -- has one of the worst success rates of any fertility clinic in the country, according to federal records reviewed by The Times.

In fact, Suleman's children represent a sizable portion of the pregnancy rate at his clinic over the last several years -- and taxpayers are already footing part of the bill.

Suleman receives at least $490 a month in food stamps, and three of her first six children are disabled and receiving federal benefits. Moreover, Kaiser Permanente's Bellflower Medical Center has asked California's health plan for the poor to cover the enormous cost of medical care for the eight premature infants in its care, according to multiple sources familiar with the case.


Suleman, who lives with her mother in a three-bedroom home, acknowledged in the NBC interview that she was struggling financially to support her six children before the birth of her octuplets. But she said she knows she will be able to pay their bills, especially after she earns her master's degree in counseling from Cal State Fullerton.

Suleman's publicist, Michael Furtney, confirmed the information about the food stamps and federal supplemental security income after two sources informed The Times of the benefits. Three sources told The Times that Kaiser has requested Medi-Cal reimbursement for care of the octuplets, which is estimated to run into hundreds of thousands of dollars. Furtney declined to confirm the Medi-Cal coverage and referred the question to Kaiser, which also declined to comment.

[beetlebum]

So I was right. There was a doctor involved.

Oh snap, some mother*******' just got owned.

[Reverend Smooth]

Yeah, taxpayers, who are having enough of a hard time making ends meet without having to subsidize this woman's spawn.

[TomStillwell]

So I was right. There was a doctor involved.

Yeah, I had a very hard time believing she did this by taking fertility drugs she bought over the internet.

[TomStillwell]

Wow. Just wow.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/11/octuplet-mom-nadya-sulema_n_166030.html


Octuplet mom Nadya Suleman has launched a website asking for donations for her family of 14 children.

[Solaris]

Wow. Just wow.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/11/octuplet-mom-nadya-sulema_n_166030.html

Gee, I guess with eight more mouths to feed, the government just isn't enough of a free ride anymore.

Yeah, I'm pissed.

[cedardryad]

And what pisses me off the most about this, is not just the fact that those kids are going to suffer emotionally and such, but that here I am struggling to make a living, only working a handful of days(2 to be exact) and I can't get insurance from the state or any help because they say that I make too much. Well yeah I would make too much if I actually worked full time instead of part time.
I'm at a fork in the road. Do I accept more days and risk loosing what state insurance i have for my daughter, because I was disqualified, or do I stay working 2 days a week just so I can get more coverage for myself and food stamps?
Thank god I'm going to school after this baby. Of course I have to wait until I'm done feeding the kid from my milk factory. :biggrin:

[Solaris]

On this fertility doctor and his clinic:


And on his website, he touts his "breakthrough technology that has revolutionized IVF."

In fact, Kamrava's clinic has a much lower rate of pregnancies and births than the vast majority of fertility clinics across the country.

His history of poor results comes despite the fact that Kamrava places more embryos per procedure than all but 10 of the nation's 426 fertility clinics for patients younger than 35. In 2006, he averaged 3.5 embryos per in vitro fertilization treatment, compared with the national average of 2.3.

Other fertility specialists said that placing high numbers of embryos is a common way that poorly performing clinics try to boost their pregnancy rates. But that increases the risk of multiple births, which pose a danger to the women and their babies.

Dr. Philip McNamee, a fertility specialist in Honolulu, said Kamrava may have believed he had little to worry about when he transferred six embryos to Suleman last year since his success rates were so low and her embryos had been frozen and thawed. Frozen embryos lead to pregnancy less frequently than fresh ones.

"That is one logical explanation of why he thought in his mind he could do it," McNamee said.

Still, he and other doctors strongly condemned the decision, especially because Suleman had a history of successful pregnancies.

Not only did all six embryos take, two of them led to twins, Suleman told NBC

...

This is not the first time he has faced controversy. At least two of his former employees have sued him, including Shirin Afshar, an office administrator who alleged that Kamrava engaged in systematic insurance and tax fraud. She also said he routinely asked her to participate in medical procedures even though she was not licensed to do so.

The suit said Kamrava required patients to pay in cash, which was given to Kamrava's wife, who "never entered the payment into the computer and never deposited the payment in the bank" so that Kamrava could avoid paying income tax on the money. The clinic kept two sets of books, one for insurance payments and one for cash payments, the lawsuit alleged.

Afshar also charged that Kamrava's office systematically defrauded insurance companies by double billing for procedures and by billing companies for unnecessary medication that Kamrava kept and then resold to other patients. The suit appeared to have settled in 1999, shortly before it went to trial.

In another case, Shantal Rajah, an embryologist from England, was awarded more than $300,000 in back pay, attorney fees and damages after working for Kamrava for less than a month. Court papers show that Rajah and Kamrava did not get along and at one point got into a fight over the proper heating of embryos.

...

Suleman's publicist, Michael Furtney, confirmed the information about the food stamps and federal supplemental security income after two sources informed The Times of the benefits. Three sources told The Times that Kaiser has requested Medi-Cal reimbursement for care of the octuplets, which is estimated to run into hundreds of thousands of dollars. Furtney declined to confirm the Medi-Cal coverage and referred the question to Kaiser, which also declined to comment.

She had denied that she was on welfare -- a comment her publicist later clarified.

"In Nadya's view, the money that she gets from the food stamp program . . . and the resources disabilities payments she gets for her three children are not welfare," Furtney said. "They are part of programs designed to help people with need, and she does not see that as welfare." (Chicago Tribune article)


Okay. From what I've read so far (various sources), this woman:

A. says she was depressed and deprived as an only child... yet in a psychological evaluation, she stated that she had a happy, normal childhood, loved being a cheerleader and had lots of friends.

B. was married until 2000, says her divorce was because of depression following her work-related injuries at a women's mental health ward (a desk was thrown into her back, and she received compensation for the injury and ongoing pain).

C. *knew* the doctor was implanting SIX embryos and had no problem with it

D. has had, according to herself and her mother, an obsession with having children since she was a teenager

E. couldn't get pregnant by normal means because her fallopian tubes were "blocked," and she had two previous ectopic pregnancies (which she calls miscarriages).

She admits she's struggled to provide for the six she already has... but is sure everything will be fine, once she completes her master's degree in counseling.

In the interviews, her mother sounds worn to a frazzle, and did *not* want her daughter to get pregnant after the first six.

First, who on earth would hire this woman to be a *counselor*, when she's clearly got an obsession she refuses to deal with?

Second, even if she counseled at Harvard, she wouldn't make enough to care for 14 children... AND, if she's so hyped on motherhood, how on earth is she going to force herself to go to work with 14 kids under age 8 at home?

Third... "that's not welfare"? Boggles the mind.

This woman seems to be living in a world of fantasy and wish-fulfillment. Her DOCTOR seems to be a hack with no principles.

I hope to hell the AMA fully investigates this guy's fertility clinic.

As for the woman... as much as it disgusts me, it looks as though we will all be footing her enormous bills for years to come. And honestly, I'd feel a lot better about that if social services kept a permanent eye on how she raises those kids---the last thing we need is for every one of them to grow up thinking their greatest fulfillment would be to "go and do likewise" (copying their mom). Hopefully, they'll grow up finding fulfillment in being themselves, instead.

And you know... one of the things that makes me the angriest, out of all the things that are anger-inducing in this mess, is that she's engineered a situation where these kids are likely to face hardship and problems for years to come, will grow up in an environment of "handouts for a living", and honestly, if she inculates her obsession into them, it may well mean they'll grow up thinking the only way they'll have real value as people is to become parents of as many children as they can.

Basically, because of her obsession, she's fucked over these kids, and is counting on the rest of the world to support her little bubble. She could've been a daycare teacher. She could've been a neonatal or pediatric doctor or nurse. She could've pursued any of those, or other, professions that give vital support and interaction with children---and she couldv'e even had a kid or two of her own and still done this. But nooo, she *had* to have a big family... and even then, adoption apparently never even entered her head. Or being a foster parent.

And, with 6 children under eight, and now OCTUPLETS, she somehow thinks she's going to get the time, and the money, to finish school and to get and work a job as a kids' counselor... and still be the "wonder mom" she longs to be.

Words just fail me.

[Solaris]

And what pisses me off the most about this, is not just the fact that those kids are going to suffer emotionally and such, but that here I am struggling to make a living, only working a handful of days(2 to be exact) and I can't get insurance from the state or any help because they say that I make too much. Well yeah I would make too much if I actually worked full time instead of part time.
I'm at a fork in the road. Do I accept more days and risk loosing what state insurance i have for my daughter, because I was disqualified, or do I stay working 2 days a week just so I can get more coverage for myself and food stamps?
Thank god I'm going to school after this baby. Of course I have to wait until I'm done feeding the kid from my milk factory. :biggrin:


Exactly. People like you are getting screwed... and this psycho woman not only gets handouts, she gets to keep her kids, too. I'm really concerned what kind of stuff she'll stick in their heads.

[Solaris]

Oh, and one more note:

If her pain from her injury is ongoing, if it causes severe back pain and headaches... HOW UNDER GOD'S GREEN EARTH DID SHE STAND ONE PREGNANCY, LET ALONE SEVEN? And if she's DISABLED from the pain, how can she be caring for SIX kids already?

Inquiring minds want to know, dammit.

She got $186,000 (IIRC) as a settlement for her disability; she's on food stamps, and three of her children are being treated for various disabilities at govt. expense (IIRC one is ADHD, one has autism, and I forget what the third was).

How has she been paying for her own schooling? She's almost completed her Master's degree, and she said she wanted to go for a PhD.

How did she pay this doctor for her treatments? Did he do it for free, to boost his "success numbers"? If not, how did she pay?

An inordinant amount of the childcare and providing (including home) are already being done by *her* parents... but they aren't rich, either. One therapist, counseling the mother (grandmother) for depression, told the woman to "kick her daughter out of the house"... but the woman can't bring herself to do it.

I know she and the woman's father feel responsible for their daughter. I know it's hard when you love your child to do that. But at some point, you just have to realize that you're *enabling* your kid in continuing harmful behaviors. And apparently, her parents haven't hit that realization yet.

I won't be surprised in the least to hear that one or both of this woman's parents drops dead of a heart attack or stroke, just from the stress, pressure, and level of work that she's heaped on them and they've accepted.

[cedardryad]

Oh, and one more note:

If her pain from her injury is ongoing, if it causes severe back pain and headaches... HOW UNDER GOD'S GREEN EARTH DID SHE STAND ONE PREGNANCY, LET ALONE SEVEN? And if she's DISABLED from the pain, how can she be caring for SIX kids already?


That is what I just said to MPagar. I mean I have crappy knees and before I got pregnant with the second one I could barely stand for more than an hour. I can barely move at 5 months now. I couldn't imagine trying to carry a child, let alone 8 with back problems. I think the insurance company should've seen this as a red flag for insurance fraud.

For her to score one thing on a psych evaluation and tell others another thing, means she's very manipulative. And it's sad she knows what to say to pass a psych evaluation, makes me think how many people have manipulated answers before.

And apparently there are some reports now that she had some plastic surgery done to look like Angelina Jolie. Of course she denies it, but they showed a picture of her before the octuplets and she looks different, visibly different. In fact I think people would've had more pity for her situation if she never had surgery done. She looked sweeter and more innocent. She was also prettier in my opinion. But then again that is just more drama and scandal added to the mix.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/katherine-thomson/does-nadya-suleman-think_b_165617.html