Legion of Super-Heroes #50 not by Shooter and Manapul [Archive]

Sir Tim Drake

01-28-2009, 05:44 PM

THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #50
Written by Jim Shooter
Art and cover by Francis Manapul & Livesay

It turns out the solicitation is wrong: the story is actually by "Justin Thyme," an obvious pseudonym, and the art is by Ramon Bachs. DC, unfortunately, did not think we needed to be told this information. I spent three dollars on this comic book thinking it was by Shooter and Manapul, but I am now stuck with a comic book I have no desire to read.

Insultingly enough, this comic book ends with a blurb saying "We greatly appreciate the support of our loyal readers!" Clearly this is a lie -- if DC really did appreciate my support, they would have let Shooter finish his own story, or at least they wouldn't have sold me a product that didn't match the solicitation.

Michael P

01-28-2009, 05:53 PM

Hunh. Well, that explains why the Princess Projectra subplot is left entirely hanging.

And why the cover is bereft of credits.

Geez, talk about not with a bang, but with a whimper...

escapegoat

01-28-2009, 05:58 PM

Ouch!
That's just bad.
It sounds like DC's starting to do a lot of that lately. Soliciting books that wind up getting done by a different writer and/or artist.

Sir Tim Drake

01-28-2009, 06:01 PM

I'm thinking seriously about calling the store and asking if I can return this comic book for a refund. This is the first time I have ever wanted to do such a thing, and I have almost ten thousand comic books.

I am really not okay with this, and this incident has given me further justification for my decision to boycott DC.

Michael P

01-28-2009, 06:05 PM

Yodazone

01-28-2009, 06:05 PM

What you talkin bout Willis????

They pulled the plug on Shooter's and Francis' issue???

So that means it's 5 issues that DC shorted them now!!!!

:evilangry:

Erwin Heinek

01-28-2009, 06:05 PM

Aren't books with creative teams that are not as solicited returnable? If so take it back to you comic shop and get your money back.

Having forced my way through the book I can understand why Shooter had his name taken off this piece of crap.

Sir Tim Drake

01-28-2009, 06:51 PM

After reading the comic book, which took me probably less than five minutes, I have to agree with Erwin. This comic is appallingly bad and it's no wonder that the writer didn't want his name used.

yoda510

01-28-2009, 07:07 PM

What is so bad is Manipul did the cover and then you are jarred to your senses when you open it. What a horrible, horrible ending to a great run. I was so excited for this issue I pulled it out of pile first and now i am disgusted. And yeah, but about Princess Projectera....What a terrible subplot to leave hanging. Everyone be sure to write Dan Didio for his twenty questions at newsarama and ask him to explain this crap. I finally gave up Marvel to focus on DC and some indy titles (nothing against marvel, i can only follow one huge universe at a time) but now I wonder if I made the wrong decision.

And why does the art look so rushed and bad. I am not even an art critic most of the time, but man this looked rushed and bad.

paulski

01-28-2009, 07:13 PM

Aren't books with creative teams that are not as solicited returnable?

Yep, pretty much. Anyone that's really cranky about the changes should be okay as long as their retailer's fine with it.

Personally, I was still going to pick up this bookend anyway, regardless of who did the issue. I'm just glad to see it go.

SUPERECWFAN1

01-28-2009, 07:15 PM

Well you can say this for DC....if you dare question them creatively you get screwed over good. 1st Austen , then Dixon...and now Jim Shooter. Wow...

Sean Walsh

01-29-2009, 06:19 AM

Wow, a pseudonym? When was the last time we got one of those in a mainstream comic? :eek:

So I take it all that Shooter talk about being ok with DC was just fluff? Quite unfortunate. :frown:

Matt K

01-29-2009, 09:34 AM

Wow, that makes me sad. It was bad enough that Shooter had to cut the run short, but I assumed that there would be at least some ending to the series.

I was actually about to pick up 48-50 since I dropped out of comics for a few months. I'm glad I learned about how bad this issue was before I placed my order.

Vic Vega

01-29-2009, 09:42 AM

I'm guessing that Shooter DID write issue 50, but asked for a psudonym in protest for not being allowed to finish his storyline.

On the other hand I'm almost certain that the threebooters that dont end up dying in LO3W are going to end up in the classic Legion.

So in a way it doesn't matter.

Sir Tim Drake

01-29-2009, 11:54 AM

I'm guessing that Shooter DID write issue 50, but asked for a psudonym in protest for not being allowed to finish his storyline.

Shooter clearly didn't write that story, unless he did so while under the influence of intoxicating substances. I can recognize Shooter's writing style and I did not see it in this issue. It's possible that they used Shooter's plot, at least in part, but this story was written by someone who had no significant experience writing comics. It was one of the worst comic books I have ever read, right up there with Marville, Brigade, and Alpha Flight #106.

I just called my LCS and the owner told me I could return the issue for credit. I encourage everyone else who bought it to do likewise. Let's show DC that we're not willing to take whatever crap they decide to give us.

Scott Taylor

01-29-2009, 12:07 PM

Yah I picked the issue up, flipped through it, and immediately realized that it sucked. Man, DC, what the hell? ><

Tazirai

01-29-2009, 12:54 PM

There is no way that could have been issue 50.....

ALL the set up with Projectra... Saturn Girl Cosmic Boy's Return, The death of a legionnaire, the MIGHTY ( LMAO) Army that is going to destroy the UP.

Seriously DC has let me down 2x in One day.. FC#7 and Legion #50.

I think im gonna take a break from DC ( NOT GL and GLC though) for awhile..
They are doing to my fav DC group , what Marvel did to Psylocke..

Michael P

01-29-2009, 02:34 PM

dan bailey

01-29-2009, 04:20 PM

Awww, crap. I picked this one up (along with the rest of my pull-list arrivals for the last 2 weeks) about 3 hours ago. Wish I'd seen this thread beforehand ...

Huh. That'd make a nice chant:

Didio
Needs to go!

Babylon23

01-29-2009, 04:45 PM

Shooter clearly didn't write that story, unless he did so while under the influence of intoxicating substances.

Odds are Shooter wrote the original script, but that it was heavily edited to the point of being unrecognisable. He probably asked for his name to be removed from the credits well after the solicitations had been published, hence the discrepancy.

I remember a similar incident happening several years ago with Mark Waid during his run on Captain America. They were able to remove his name from the credits but he was still listed as the writer on the cover.

yoda510

01-29-2009, 04:46 PM

Yep. That's it. Lights out. You don't have to go read Adventure Comics, but you can't stay here.

(The story was planned to run longer, but Shooter had his feet, and possibly his final script, cut out from under him.)

I think Shooter makes his own bed with his attitude issues, but this is one of the worst disservices to the fans I have ever seen.

Shellhead

01-29-2009, 04:48 PM

I'm confused... DC found somebody worse than Manapul to draw #50?

yoda510

01-29-2009, 04:55 PM

Odds are Shooter wrote the original script, but that it was heavily edited to the point of being unrecognisable. He probably asked for his name to be removed from the credits well after the solicitations had been published, hence the discrepancy.

I remember a similar incident happening several years ago with Mark Waid during his run on Captain America. They were able to remove his name from the credits but he was still listed as the writer on the cover.

I have to agree with Sir TIm on this one. It was horrible and nothing like the other 12 or so issues of his run. And I don't think he would just totally skip over the Princess Projectra storyline for this entire issue. But the good thing about Shooter is he will tell us exactly what happened so we should know eventually

Ontir

01-29-2009, 05:30 PM

Maybe Shooter should've insisted upon "Chuck U. Farley!"

TROUBLEZ

01-29-2009, 05:42 PM

Matt K

01-29-2009, 05:46 PM

That's BS.
After all the BS with the WW relaunch, false advertising, lateness with All-Star Superman, garabge All-Star Batman I stopped buying DC, except for this title and the Maguire/Nicieza Batman Confidential issues.

Well, bye DC!

I'm actually out with the end of Blue Beetle (so this is the second to last DC book I get). I started with DC with 5 years later and since then they canceled every single book I picked up.

It's a real shame what happened here but I'm not surprised given the state of DC lately.

Sir Tim Drake

01-29-2009, 05:54 PM

I'm confused... DC found somebody worse than Manapul to draw #50?

I imagine it wasn't very difficult. If they had been looking for someone better than Manapul, they might have had a hard time finding anyone.

Shellhead

01-29-2009, 05:58 PM

I imagine it wasn't very difficult. If they had been looking for someone better than Manapul, they might have had a hard time finding anyone.

Was Manapul too busy to draw #50? Or did he quit because of Shooter's public criticism?

Will.S

01-29-2009, 06:34 PM

Was Manapul too busy to draw #50? Or did he quit because of Shooter's public criticism?
I wouldn't be surprised if it was both.

Babylon23

01-29-2009, 07:14 PM

Was Manapul too busy to draw #50? Or did he quit because of Shooter's public criticism?

Manapul is working on an upcoming Superman/Batman arc, where he's using an inkwash effect on the art. That may be why he didn't have time to finish up Legion. There's some preview art and an interview at Newsarama: http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010926-Manapul.html

CBikle

01-29-2009, 08:35 PM

Was Manapul too busy to draw #50? Or did he quit because of Shooter's public criticism?

From that interview, he seems pretty deferential to Shooter and had some nice things to say about him.

Manapul's art, while not mind-blowing, is pretty good and seems to have crossover appeal for both old school art fans and newer ones who might want an art style that's closer to McGuiness.

TROUBLEZ

01-29-2009, 10:00 PM

Well, actually I'll be buying Superman/Batman. The artist from from the Lil' Leaguers story is going to be the regular, and the writers are also staying on. So that will be my only title.

Oh well, about the Legion. While I won't be buying the new Johns series I did enjoy very much Shooter and Manapul's run on the book. They made me a Legion fan.

Sir Tim Drake

01-29-2009, 11:56 PM

Greg McElhatton reviewed this issue on CBR (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=694) and gave it 0.5 stars out of 5, which I assume is the worst possible score.

mr.brighteyes

01-30-2009, 05:06 AM

Haven't read legion in a while. since shooter took the reigns actually. Everything I read about him made him out to be the second coming and the arc I read wasn't anything great to me.

Still this seems kind of a bad idea and yeah I would return the issue

XS23

01-30-2009, 07:15 AM

What a bummer! There was absolutely nothing on the Projectra subplot in this issue. Are we going to get any kind of decent ending to that in the future or is this going to be just another one of those kind that end up being forgotten?

Stephane Garrelie

01-30-2009, 11:11 AM

Shooter said lot of good things about Manapul. He had of course a professional and critic way to look at it, but he said that Manapul had lot of potential, and already lot of qualities.
That is a few noisy message boards posters who have interpreted what Shooter said as being nasty to Manapul.
Shooter even corrected what he said to remove any doubt on the fact that he apprecied the work of Manapul.

Now about this issue. Didn't read it yet. What i read here and on other message boards doesn't give me the desire to read it. It is the book on my pull list and i specificly said i buy it for Jim Shooter. So maybe i would not be obliged to take it, yet that bores me to put it on the shop, so i'll probably take it anyway. Don't know if i'll do more than browse it though. Could be a direct to the bin.

I'll give it a look anyway. I think that Justin thyme is probably to Jim Shooter what John Harkness is to Steve Englehart: Something used to not have his name associed to a work with wich editorial messed so much that it is deformed beyond recognisable.
Also i won't be surprised if Sir Tim was right: Shooter plot, the issue actualy writen by someone else. To remove anything that DC didn't like in Shooter's work.
That's just speculation on my part though, based on the fans reception. I 've not yet read the issue.

Vic Vega

01-30-2009, 11:27 AM

Well I remember reading that Shooter was under the impression he'd of had more time to finish his storyline.

Its why the whole Projectra angle was dropped. They can revisit Projectra as a badguy(girl) if they ever relaunch the threeboot characters.

Personally we are going to have to see how many of the threeboot guys make it out of Legion of Three Worlds for it to even be a issue.

Zero Hunter

01-30-2009, 06:50 PM

My god what a bad issue. The story and art both were just so subpar that it made my eyes hurt., but then again it kind of fits with just how bad this whole series has been. Shooter inherited a dead book from Waid, and even though I think he and Manapul did a good job with their run the book was just to far gone to be saved. May Mark Waid never touch a single Legion character ever again in his whole life.

My this be the last we see of the misbegotten 3boot out side of Legion of 3 Worlds.

Absent-minded Prof

01-30-2009, 07:39 PM

[QUOTE=I just called my LCS and the owner told me I could return the issue for credit. I encourage everyone else who bought it to do likewise. Let's show DC that we're not willing to take whatever crap they decide to give us.[/QUOTE]

I claim no knowledge of how the system works, but who would then get stuck with the price of the comic? - the LCS? - or DC?

Michael P

01-30-2009, 08:37 PM

The store would, presumably. Unless Diamond up and decides to make this issue returnable.

paulski

01-30-2009, 08:57 PM

I claim no knowledge of how the system works, but who would then get stuck with the price of the comic? - the LCS? - or DC?

If the store is willing to go through the process of returning the book to Diamond, then DC would. As another poster suggested, issues that have different creators solicited to the final product are returnable.

Abraxas

01-30-2009, 10:00 PM

Well you can say this for DC....if you dare question them creatively you get screwed over good. 1st Austen , then Dixon...and now Jim Shooter. Wow...

Austen is still blacklisted by DC, and now that King of the hill is gone, what is he to do now? Dixon was one of the few writers who made me want to pick up DC comics and he got canned and what is he doing now? Now Shooter, well he was someone who worked on the Legion at 16! He gave us great characters, he deserved better. All these writers deserved better. But what do you expect from the management?

Pixie_Solanas

01-30-2009, 10:53 PM

Austen is still blacklisted by DC, and now that King of the hill is gone, what is he to do now? Dixon was one of the few writers who made me want to pick up DC comics and he got canned and what is he doing now? Now Shooter, well he was someone who worked on the Legion at 16! He gave us great characters, he deserved better. All these writers deserved better. But what do you expect from the management?

Churning out crap at IDW

stingerman

01-31-2009, 12:14 AM

I encourage anyone who was not happy with this to e-mail DC:
dc_publicity@dccomics.com

I have and asked for a comment. :smile:

Guy_Gardner

01-31-2009, 02:01 AM

dan bailey

01-31-2009, 07:12 AM

Now Shooter, well he was someone who worked on the Legion at 16!

13, actually.

XS23

01-31-2009, 07:51 AM

And that's even more impressive!

DonEMC

01-31-2009, 09:20 PM

TROUBLEZ

01-31-2009, 10:51 PM

thanks for the email stingerman.

lazlo_toth

02-01-2009, 10:23 AM

while I had the same problems with the writing of the issue like most of the people on the forum.

it was the art that really offended my senses...why did Invisible Kid look like he was 5 years old?...what the hell was up with Saturn Girl's arms and legs at the beginning of the issue?

I usually defend Didio for the crap people put him on blast for,....but this was just inexcusable....I'm suprised Levitz didn't even say anything about this either...

What I want to know is what exactly Didio's issue with the Legion? This is the second time that the plug has been pulled on the LSH during his tenure, and in both instances the book was left with major plotlines left unresolved. I understand that titles get cancelled, but usually some attempt is made to tie things up. If DC was really "grateful" for their loyal readership, they would have made sure that the book came to a more satisfying conclusion. The disrespect and dismissiveness implie in the approach that DC's taken here upsets me more than the fact that the book got cancelled. I know that the Legion is going to be back in some form relatively soon, what irks me is the disregard to the people who stuck with the title and all the crap in the vain hope that things would turn around.

paulski

02-01-2009, 07:24 PM

What I want to know is what exactly Didio's issue with the Legion? This is the second time that the plug has been pulled on the LSH during his tenure, and in both instances the book was left with major plotlines left unresolved. I understand that titles get cancelled, but usually some attempt is made to tie things up.

I'm sure DiDio has absolutely no issue with the Legion. When a book is selling as badly as LSH was, you can only persevere with it for so long. Yes, it would have been nice to have a proper conclusion to all the storylines as originally intended, but I think they probably decided to cut their losses and end the book on a nice round number (#50) as titles often do.

Pixie_Solanas

02-02-2009, 09:42 AM

I don't think i've ever been snookered as hard as I was with this issue.

Ridiculous. This really was as bad as everyone else has been saying.

dan bailey

02-02-2009, 01:06 PM

When a book is selling as badly as LSH was, you can only persevere with it for so long.

You're apparently confusing it with some other DC comic. I just went through the latest sales figures & saw some 2 dozen DC titles below -- in several cases, far below -- the LSH's 22,180. A few of those have also been cancelled (Manhunter, Blue Beetle, etc), & most of the others are from miniseries that obviously are falling flat ... but some are still ongoing. Somehow.

In fact, I'm starting to think you're in the wrong thread & somehow typoed The Spirit, which shows total sales of *gulp* 10,048. Yeesh.

Yes, it would have been nice to have a proper conclusion to all the storylines as originally intended, but I think they probably decided to cut their losses and end the book on a nice round number (#50) as titles often do.

Problem is, just a few months ago -- when the truncated, ends-at-#50 storyline was announced -- that final issue was described as accomplishing certain things. That's a far cry from what we got ... & I say that as someone who found #50 to be only mediocre, as opposed to the full-fledged abomination that many here are decrying.

Pixie_Solanas

02-02-2009, 04:36 PM

Interesting tidbits on the craptacular #50, from LITG:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=19802

Frankly, Didio and company should be thoroughly embarassed for releasing this turd. I'd have rather had the series end at #49, if the steaming pile of fetid dung we did get in #50 was the denouement.

I'm so pissed i'm thinking of telling their new "Adventure Comics" title (the purported next showcase for certain LSH characters) to shove it. This was an affront to loyal DC customers everywhere.

Shellhead

02-02-2009, 04:44 PM

I really wanted to like this Legion run, and there were a few good issues early on, so it took me until #30 to realize that it wasn't likely to get better. I gave it another try when Shooter came on board, but the first two issues of his run left me pretty disappointed. To continue with this until the very bitter end just seems really stubborn.

Joe Acro

02-02-2009, 05:09 PM

Well, I don't know if Shooter actually wrote the issue or not (whether he's being playful in his begrudgement or if there really was a team that had to throw it together).

I do know, though, that I enjoyed the issue. No, it's not a fully adequate resolution. No Cosmic Boy, no Projectra story. But I liked what was in there. Even the art.

And it accomplished what Shooter wanted it to accomplish. I want the story to continue and be finished.

FunkyGreenJerusalem

02-02-2009, 06:35 PM

May Mark Waid never touch a single Legion character ever again in his whole life.

Why?

Because the book went bad after he left?

Not really his fault.

Or because he did a new take on a dead franchise and got some sales for the book?

My this be the last we see of the misbegotten 3boot out side of Legion of 3 Worlds.

Why did you read fifty issues if you didn't like them?

It got me into Legion and I find this version infinitely more interesting than the 'original' Legion who popped up in Action Comics.
Guess innovation just can't beat nostalgia.

paulski

02-02-2009, 07:18 PM

You're apparently confusing it with some other DC comic. I just went through the latest sales figures & saw some 2 dozen DC titles below -- in several cases, far below -- the LSH's 22,180. A few of those have also been cancelled (Manhunter, Blue Beetle, etc), & most of the others are from miniseries that obviously are falling flat ... but some are still ongoing. Somehow.

In fact, I'm starting to think you're in the wrong thread & somehow typoed The Spirit, which shows total sales of *gulp* 10,048. Yeesh.
Nah, I'm not confusing it with other titles - it's just that they're selling even worse than LSH's numbers which are low enough (from memory) to get it cancelled regardless.

The fact that some of the other books (ie. Jonah Hex and Spirit) are still going is a different story entirely that I'll let other, far cleverer people than me comment on. :wink:

Problem is, just a few months ago -- when the truncated, ends-at-#50 storyline was announced -- that final issue was described as accomplishing certain things. That's a far cry from what we got ... & I say that as someone who found #50 to be only mediocre, as opposed to the full-fledged abomination that many here are decrying.
Still, the book was originally solicited with the creators in question which leads me to think stuff happened between then and now which led Shooter and Manapul to quit before finishing work on the last issue, more than likely editorial conflict of some kind.

Please don't misunderstand me - I'm in no way trying to defend the contents of #50 - I'm just not as upset about most other people, mainly due to the fact I've hated the lousy quality of the book basically since Barry Kitson finished up and I'm just glad to see the bloody thing finally done... :evilsmile:

stingerman

02-02-2009, 10:38 PM

I'm so pissed i'm thinking of telling their new "Adventure Comics" title (the purported next showcase for certain LSH characters) to shove it. This was an affront to loyal DC customers everywhere.

They don't show until the second arc ...

"Oh – and one last thing that I wanted to mention before we go – the content for Adventure Comics #1 has changed – I think it might be out there that Mon-el is in issue #1. The reality is, that the storyline that we were going to put in as the launch of Adventure Comics has actually moved into Superman comics. While the Legionaries will be appearing in Adventure, it won’t be until the second arc of the series. "

Dan Dido Interview (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/120824-DiDio.html)

- http://cosmicbooknews.com/forum/index.php?topic=71.0

Stephane Garrelie

02-03-2009, 09:28 AM

With the infos given in this week's LITG it looks less and less like Shooter had anything to do with #50 as it was published.

So if both Shooter & Manapul left with #49 (given that even if Shooter wrote a plot for 50 it seems that it isn't the one that served for the issue or at least very few of it was left if any.) i think more and more that i won't buy it. i'll talk of it with my LCS of course. It bores me if they're stuck with it, but if they can return it to diamond/dc frankly i see no reason for me to buy a comicbook that would probably go directly to the bin after being rapidly browsed.

Had i known that we wouldn't have Shooter on #50, i would have asked to have the book removed from my pull list after #49.

Zero Hunter

02-03-2009, 11:21 AM

Why?

Because the book went bad after he left?

Not really his fault.

Or because he did a new take on a dead franchise and got some sales for the book?

Why did you read fifty issues if you didn't like them?

It got me into Legion and I find this version infinitely more interesting than the 'original' Legion who popped up in Action Comics.
Guess innovation just can't beat nostalgia.

What you call invoation I call gutting everything that made the legion great. His entire run could have been a generic group of heroes and would have read the same way. Waid is first and for most the reason this version of the Legion has never been a great seller. And if you notieced his sales started taking pretty quick once people relized how bad his run was. The only thing that saved his run in the slaes department was shoving Supergirl into the book, and even that didn't help him for along.

As to why I read the series? I just love the Legion in nearly all its versions, and kept hoping that it would get better.

It may have gotten you into the Legion, but it drove off just as many if not more from the book. It was by no means a success.

FunkyGreenJerusalem

02-03-2009, 04:28 PM

What you call invoation I call gutting everything that made the legion great. His entire run could have been a generic group of heroes and would have read the same way. Waid is first and for most the reason this version of the Legion has never been a great seller. And if you notieced his sales started taking pretty quick once people relized how bad his run was. The only thing that saved his run in the slaes department was shoving Supergirl into the book, and even that didn't help him for along.

As to why I read the series? I just love the Legion in nearly all its versions, and kept hoping that it would get better.

It may have gotten you into the Legion, but it drove off just as many if not more from the book. It was by no means a success.

How as it not a success?

It sold more than the previous Legion series was doing, so it obviously didn't 'drive away' as many people as you seem to claim.

At what point did sales start dropping?
At what point do you think people realised it was 'so awful' that they dropped it?
Sorry, I'm just not convinced that it's as hated as you like to think - I just think you hate it, and so believe everyone does.
I would've said the biggest stumbling block for the book was losing Waid so soon after starting.

DonC

02-03-2009, 05:31 PM

I encourage anyone who was not happy with this to e-mail DC:
dc_publicity@dccomics.com

I have and asked for a comment. :smile:

You know, between this, Final Crisis and Countdown, I'm wondering if an actual letter to Dan DiDio isn't called for. Or maybe Paul Levitz.

Pixie_Solanas

02-03-2009, 05:35 PM

I clearly cannot see why any competent editor at DC approved this mishmash of complete tedium to close out the series.

This was just not good in any way. Art, story, all deficient, all completely lacking, and entirely removed from the focus of the arc as it was building up to its conclusion.

We were promised much, much more than what we were given. And what we were given was not acceptable by ANYONE's standards. This has nothing to do with actual storyline details or nitpicking about Shooter's grand scheme. It has to do with a completely generic template story being overlaid onto the supposed-climax, with the readership apparently expected to suspend all anticipation for loose storylines and any sort of expected wrapups.

C-Cool

02-03-2009, 06:12 PM

THIS is ridiculous.

And I'm giving everyone a part of this the blame.

But THAT does not include Johns and his "Legion of Three Worlds" mini (it's not like Johns himself forced Shooter to do this), or any other entity besides the book, the workers, and the higher ups keeping an eye on this.

At this point, Shooter gets NO respect from me. Bring your real work, or get blacklisted. F**king drama queen.

At this point, DC editorial gets NO respect from me. Outright cancel the damn thing if it's not Shooter's actual work.

At this point, any fan who blames another entity besides these two sides get NO respect from me.

You don't undercut other people's work for one bad apple. THAT's disrespect towards the hard work of others who work hard for their money, and don't take the sissy's way out of their work (then again, this is a fandom known for it's disregard for respect. Comics in general, not Legion fans).

Geez. At least Dixon did the jobs he was assigned to do, because he considered his fans. F**king equivalent of pooping on the fast food dinner you're serving, and everyone blames the managers before the culprit. Oh, and says the other workers are just like him.

If Shooter had no issue #50 AT HAND, READY TO PRINT, it's the higher ups that are at fault. Otherwise, it's whatever on Shooter's next work.

TROUBLEZ

02-03-2009, 06:35 PM

DC canceled the book, and cut short the run. They've been planning the Johns Legion revamp for awhile.
I only blame the people in charge at DC. I was enjoying Legion until I heard it was getting canceled. I felt like why bother if the story wasn't going to continue? But I bought the issues anyways because it was the only good thing DC was putting out.

From what I've read from Shooter's interview most of his ideas sound pretty good. It seems like DC wasn't really trying to back this title and just wanted to brush it under the rug to make way for the Johns run.

Zero Hunter

02-03-2009, 11:21 PM

I would've said the biggest stumbling block for the book was losing Waid so soon after starting.

Since when is 2 1/2 years not enough time to make a book good, especially when you are starting from scratch, and have total creative freedom?
He had 30 issues, and I belive was actully scheduled to run to at least 36before he walked away.

Abraxas

02-03-2009, 11:45 PM

A little off-topic, but I'm curious: What did Chuck Austen do to get blacklisted at DC? I know he was working there for awhile, but I didn't think his stuff was nearly as bad at DC as it was at Marvel. What happened?

From: http://www.barbelith.com/topic/23833

"They were having problems with my scripts and general direction, and sales weren't where they wanted them. They wanted a top ten book, and felt another writer could get them there, when I couldn't. What I was told was that Dan Didio had a conversation with various retailers who said they would never order anything with my name on it because they hated me so much, and that it was creating a ceiling of sales on "Action" that I would never be able to break through. So, I was off Superman. I refused to work under a pseudonym, so DC fired me and blacklisted me from the company. I took that as the opportunity to get out of comics and back into other forms of creativity." - Chuck Austen

He didn't want to write comics under a false name, so he got booted.

SUPERECWFAN1

02-03-2009, 11:53 PM

From: http://www.barbelith.com/topic/23833

"They were having problems with my scripts and general direction, and sales weren't where they wanted them. They wanted a top ten book, and felt another writer could get them there, when I couldn't. What I was told was that Dan Didio had a conversation with various retailers who said they would never order anything with my name on it because they hated me so much, and that it was creating a ceiling of sales on "Action" that I would never be able to break through. So, I was off Superman. I refused to work under a pseudonym, so DC fired me and blacklisted me from the company. I took that as the opportunity to get out of comics and back into other forms of creativity." - Chuck Austen

He didn't want to write comics under a false name, so he got booted.

They also changed his long time plans he had for the book. From what he said he had 20-30 issues planned out and that Lois Lane and Lana Lang would finally reach an understanding. I believe Austen was gonna give Lana a job in Metropolis from what I remember and make her a bigger supporting character.

Pretty sad to see him get blacklisted.

Abraxas

02-03-2009, 11:59 PM

They also changed his long time plans he had for the book. From what he said he had 20-30 issues planned out and that Lois Lane and Lana Lang would finally reach an understanding. I believe Austen was gonna give Lana a job in Metropolis from what I remember and make her a bigger supporting character.

Pretty sad to see him get blacklisted.

I am a Chuck Austen fan. I take pride in that. He made creative choices that others railed against, but he was trying his best to break the never ending cycle of the same thing, over and over again. It is sad to see him banished like a leper. Maybe he will return, some day.

yoda510

02-04-2009, 05:12 PM

You know, between this, Final Crisis and Countdown, I'm wondering if an actual letter to Dan DiDio isn't called for. Or maybe Paul Levitz.

Yeah, I sent an email 5 days without a response, so I am not sure how good that email address is...we should all send in the exact same question to ask Dan D over at newsarama, although it would probably never get asked.

Shellhead

02-04-2009, 05:23 PM

Waid started out strong on this series. Issues #2, 3 and 6 were very good, and most of the other issues in the first year were also good. After that, it seemed like Waid was distracted and no longer giving LSH his best effort. Maybe he was really busy with 52.

Shooter was a real disappointment to me on this run, right from the start. His writing didn't suck, but his work was just average by modern comic book standards, and not really any better than the previous 18 issues by Waid.

Neither one of them deserves full blame for what happened to the Legion. Each and every reboot has been a mistake, losing more than gained every time around, reducing these great characters to bland archetypes. Maybe Johns can restore them to greatness. His first issue of Legion of Three Worlds was impressive, his second issue less so.

escapegoat

02-04-2009, 05:42 PM

stingerman

02-04-2009, 11:45 PM

Yeah, I sent an email 5 days without a response, so I am not sure how good that email address is...we should all send in the exact same question to ask Dan D over at newsarama, although it would probably never get asked.

Its straight from the DC site. They are probably ignoring it.

Has anyone read anything "official" regarding this anywhere?

SUPERECWFAN1

02-05-2009, 02:07 AM

I am a Chuck Austen fan. I take pride in that. He made creative choices that others railed against, but he was trying his best to break the never ending cycle of the same thing, over and over again. It is sad to see him banished like a leper. Maybe he will return, some day.

I loved his work...that Vince Russo approach to comics. The whole "crash TV" approach. Be wild and crazy.

Neither one of them deserves full blame for what happened to the Legion. Each and every reboot has been a mistake, losing more than gained every time around, reducing these great characters to bland archetypes. Maybe Johns can restore them to greatness. His first issue of Legion of Three Worlds was impressive, his second issue less so.

Have you read his Action Comics arc ? Its pretty damn good and he seemed to nail the Legion pretty good.

Abraxas

02-05-2009, 02:28 AM

I loved his work...that Vince Russo approach to comics. The whole "crash TV" approach. Be wild and crazy.

Did you ever read his Avengers "Once an Invader" Arc? Or his Warmachine series One? Really good stuff if you haven't.

It seems to me that those strive to rise above the same old stuff get shot down.

yoda510

02-05-2009, 06:46 AM

Its straight from the DC site. They are probably ignoring it.

Has anyone read anything "official" regarding this anywhere?

Oh I have no doubt it is a legit email address for them, it didn't bounce back, but yeah, I just don't think they care.

Ontir

02-05-2009, 12:13 PM

Since when is 2 1/2 years not enough time to make a book good, especially when you are starting from scratch, and have total creative freedom?
He had 30 issues, and I belive was actully scheduled to run to at least 36before he walked away.

Yeah, he left early. The book just wasn't good. It wasn't going well, and I think he stayed far too long. Shooter turned things around fairly fast. The stories made sense, you could tell who the characters were, the book had a pulse and it was just interesting again.

FunkyGreenJerusalem

02-05-2009, 05:35 PM

Since when is 2 1/2 years not enough time to make a book good, especially when you are starting from scratch, and have total creative freedom?
He had 30 issues, and I belive was actully scheduled to run to at least 36before he walked away.

What?

The book was good - hell, I think his run is great.

I wanted him to stay on the book for eighty issues.

What you are saying has nothing to do with the statement from me you quoted.

I think losing Waid was what made the book fall apart.

C-Cool

02-05-2009, 05:38 PM

Having read the run recently... I will say that Waid's run was much better than Shooter's, but not by too much.

I liked both, until...

SUPERECWFAN1

02-05-2009, 05:40 PM

Did you ever read his Avengers "Once an Invader" Arc? Or his Warmachine series One? Really good stuff if you haven't.

It seems to me that those strive to rise above the same old stuff get shot down.

Yeah I have his Avengers run. Its a shame it was junked for the horrible Bendis "Avengers" arc. Austen was trying to do new things and I really hate how his new female Captain Britian was shuttered off into the limbo. I loved the premise of it.

FunkyGreenJerusalem

02-05-2009, 06:17 PM

SUPERECWFAN1

02-05-2009, 06:41 PM

I've said it before, but your un-ironic love of the Chuckster just simply amazes me.

Because his work makes me laugh. I mean it was so over the top soap opera. We'd all be in the LCS on Wednesday when Uncanny X-Men came out , cracking up at the wild crap he'd do. You had Grant Morrison and his weird sci-fi touch on New X-Men and over at Uncanny you had crazy over the top soap opera with Uncanny .

God I miss those days. When he was pushed off for Claremont we all groaned. Because Claremont can't do wild over the top like Austen. He could try but he has to explain it all and its lost ...:frown:

Lester C.

02-06-2009, 12:53 AM

Isn't Ramon Bachs Jim Fern from Crossgen?

Pixie_Solanas

02-06-2009, 10:06 AM

Because his work makes me laugh. I mean it was so over the top soap opera. We'd all be in the LCS on Wednesday when Uncanny X-Men came out , cracking up at the wild crap he'd do. You had Grant Morrison and his weird sci-fi touch on New X-Men and over at Uncanny you had crazy over the top soap opera with Uncanny .

God I miss those days. When he was pushed off for Claremont we all groaned. Because Claremont can't do wild over the top like Austen. He could try but he has to explain it all and its lost ...:frown:

So Claremont was so bad it was good, in a sense? That's exactly how I felt about most of his output, except for a few arcs that were so bad they were just bad.

Abraxas

02-06-2009, 11:36 AM

Yeah I have his Avengers run. Its a shame it was junked for the horrible Bendis "Avengers" arc. Austen was trying to do new things and I really hate how his new female Captain Britian was shuttered off into the limbo. I loved the premise of it.

His great run spawned a great series The Invaders. But even that got the was junked because it was ahead of it's time.

His Uncanny X-Men run was one of the coolest I have ever read. Nightcrawler's daddy is a devil. Juggernaut is a hero and hooked up with She-Hulk. They where crazy. He complimented Grant Morrison very well, IMO.

Ontir

02-06-2009, 01:33 PM

Having read the run recently... I will say that Waid's run was much better than Shooter's, but not by too much.

I liked both, until...

Sorry, no way. Waid didn't bother to let readers know who his characters were, and he didn't give them individual personalities. He also revealed the problem of the story as its solution. As bad as Zero Legion was, this is the lowest point of his career. Utter crap.

Shooter turned the dung heap back into a Legion book.

Sean Walsh

02-07-2009, 02:00 PM

So Didio was asked about LSH #50 today at NYCC:

What happened to the end of Shooter's Legion of Super-Heroes? DiDio: We don't cover that. It was a pseudonym at the author's request. We cancelled the book, finished it and shoved it out the door. Thanks for asking that.

Wow. :eek:

I have no other words.

TROUBLEZ

02-07-2009, 05:39 PM

I like how Dan Didio can go into details of how he went drinking with the writers at DC and come up with these stupid ideas but he can't "cover" the screw up with the last issue of LOSH. It wasn't just the pseudonym. It was the whole false advertising they had going on.

titanfan

02-07-2009, 06:51 PM

Yeah, could care less about the pseudonym and who actually wrote the issue. I don't think the issue was nearly as bad as people are saying--it was an ok story just woefully incomplete.

I really want to know "WTF happened to kick the writer/artist off the title for the last issue?" and if we would ever see any closure to all of the things they left hanging with this legion? And once it was known the issue wouldn't be what was solicited--why couldn't they have issued a different solicitation?

Like an idiot, I just bought the last issue assuming Shooter was still writing.

Ontir

02-07-2009, 10:25 PM

I've never been a part of the Didio haters, but I have to say, that lame-ass answer, combined with the false advertising and utter crap-heap of an issue is bringing a change of mind. That and I'm going to be wary of any book with the name "Marts" attached to it!

TROUBLEZ

02-07-2009, 10:28 PM

I'm curious, would DC really have been able to go around the legal issue of Superboy by simply renaming him Superlad? Or was this character going to be another kryptoninan? Anyone know?

Cyclopsj316

02-07-2009, 11:27 PM

Didio said that?

... that's disgusting. I actually liked the guy a helluva lot more, until i read that remark...

$5 Milkshake

02-07-2009, 11:57 PM

So Didio was asked about LSH #50 today at NYCC:

Wow. :eek:

I have no other words.

Wow, that sounds like quite the comment. Boo Didio.

On the other hand, Justin Thyme? LOL!

Sir Tim Drake

02-08-2009, 08:05 AM

I'm not buying another comic book with that man's name on it. I'm not even going to mention his name anymore.

lazlo_toth

02-08-2009, 08:46 AM

I'm not buying another comic book with that man's name on it. I'm not even going to mention his name anymore.

I'm not quite ready to boycott all of DC just yet (I'm waiting until the inevitable dissolution of the Superman/Lois Lane marriage goes down in a year or two for that :biggrin: ), but I'm sure as hell avoiding Adventure Comics. It's clear that this is NOT going to be a monthly title devoted to the Legion, and anything less than that is simply not acceptable. They are too big and have too much history to be backups or second bananas to Starman or Superboy or whoever. DC has yanked our chains on this and used the Legion as a way to coyly tease us about this book, and they're only going to be guest stars who don't show up until the second story arc. Thanks for nothing, I'll spend the $3 on a Marvel book, at least they're up front about it when they insult my intelligence.

FunkyGreenJerusalem

02-08-2009, 08:36 PM

Sorry, no way. Waid didn't bother to let readers know who his characters were, and he didn't give them individual personalities. He also revealed the problem of the story as its solution. As bad as Zero Legion was, this is the lowest point of his career. Utter crap.

Shooter turned the dung heap back into a Legion book.

Having never read Legion before - so being totally new to all of it when I started reading it - I can say that's a load of BS.
I knew who the characters were and I had a sense of their individual personalities.

Just because YOU didn't like it, doesn't mean those elements weren't there.

Michael P

02-08-2009, 08:37 PM

Having never read Legion before - so being totally new to all of it when I started reading it - I can say that's a load of BS.
I knew who the characters were and I had a sense of their individual personalities.

Just because YOU didn't like it, doesn't mean those elements weren't there.

Same here. Hell, how quickly I got a feel for the characters was one of the things that hooked me on the book.

dan bailey

02-08-2009, 10:31 PM

I've gotta agree with the previous 2 guys. (I had been previously exposed to the Legion, but the most recent version I'd read would've been, god, not too long after Grell started on the book, back in the mid-'70s.)

Yodazone

02-09-2009, 02:50 PM

The podcast of the panel is online and here's how the wording really went:

Fan: "I was really looking foward to the end of Jim Shooter's run on Legion of SuperHeroes and can you tell us what happened there and why the fans weren't informed of the creative change?"

Didio: "um well i'm sorry,...first of all! uhhh...that is a pseudonym...it's done by the request of the author, and we really don't cover that. We finished it, cancelled it and we put the book out the door so...I'm not really sure what the question is but thank you for asking it..

..the brief "Legion" comment was at the 40:00 min mark (DC Universe 2/7/09 podcast ):

http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/downloads/

The "shoved" blurb was mistakenly added by the blog writer.

Pixie_Solanas

02-09-2009, 03:40 PM

So Didio was asked about LSH #50 today at NYCC:

Wow. :eek:

I have no other words.

Glad to know quality is job one up there... :rolleyes:

FunkyGreenJerusalem

02-09-2009, 06:13 PM