Batman developments in Final Crisis #7 (spoilers)

[Captain Jim]

Though there will doubtless be a general FC #7 thread on the FC forum, in the event that Batman's fate in #6 is followed up on in this issue, I thought we'd want to discuss that aspect here.

So, if you have general FC comments, please take them to that forum. But feel free to talk about Batman (or supporting character) developments here. (And let's keep it to a single thread.)

[J Alan Shelton]

--Contains Spoilers--

Well, it's certainly followed up on....

I went ahead and canceled my BFTC and surrounding books from my online pull box. I had been thinking about it for a while now but this sealed the deal for me. They may have been better off to wait and ship this book after those had hit if they really wanted to maximize sales due to the "ultimate fate of the Batman".

Editorial really has seemed to screw the pooch on this one. Who really cares (not to mention spend their hard earned money) for Battle for the Cowl and its various one-shots and spin-offs when we all now know for certain that Bruce is still alive out there somewhere? Not me. I love Dick Grayson and was looking forward to (and hoping for) his tenure as Batman, but if Bruce is out there...well, I'd rather just have him back. And knowing he's out there makes this seem even more of a short-term status change than was already expected so why should I care who dons the cowl next?

It really seems this all stems from the colossal screw-up of someone up top not saying to Morrison, "Yeah, I understand why you want to call this next Batman arc RIP, but I think that may end up being somewhat misleading to our readers and their expectations. Better change it." and that would have been that. No outrage over RIP's ending, no Didio coming in to explain that the "real" ending takes place in #6, only to have that somewhat negated by Bruce's "resurrection" in the next issue two weeks later.

I mean, really, this big event, "ultimate fate" they've been hyping has been that Batman's lost in time? Yeah...I think not. Seriously, no way this could have been the master plan all along. And if it was...yikes.

Anyway, this is just my initial reaction thats been playing over in my head this morning. Maybe my opinion will change, but as of right now I'm underwhelmed by this whole affair.

[DonC]

So you really expected Bruce to die and stay dead? Or were you expecting him to be dead for a couple months/years?

[J Alan Shelton]

So you really expected Bruce to die and stay dead? Or were you expecting him to be dead for a couple months/years?

Wasn't the announced plan for the year?

I don't think anyone really thought he'd stay "dead" and they'd be fooling themselves if they did, but they should have left the character off-board a bit longer to give his "death" a bit more weight and impact not to mention a little mystery.

[Keith_Martineau]

There WAS no announced plan.

They've been tight lipped with everything regarding Bruce Wayne EXCEPT for the fact that he would not be Batman for awhile.

They didn't say if that would be result of his death, retirement, or apparent loss across time.

And why should you read Battle for the Cowl since we know Bruce is alive and out there somewhere?

By that logic...why read a comic at all? We know that in the end, Batman wins after a series of challenges. The fun is supposed to be seeing how we get there.

BFTC is about Bruce Wayne being absent, and someone taking on the mantle of Batman. Then there will be stories about whoever takes the mantle for awhile. Eventually, Bruce will be Batman again. The ending doesn't matter, you are supposed to enjoy the ride.

That said, I totally understand if people didn't enjoy the ride OR the end of Final Crisis, but come on people. Knowing whether Bruce Wayne is dead or alive has not been the point of a single issue of either of these books, and will not be going forward. Stop deluding yourselves into thinking you've been lied to by hype and marketing, when you are just projecting your own expectations on these things.

[Samuraixsithlord]

Batman appears alive and well in the past with Anthro, he begins to start making cave paintings, mostly hoping they survive so someone can go into the past and find him

[The Scarlet Sapien]

Actually as much as I like to gripe, I'll cast my vote as Yay! on this one. He's not dead, just Believed dead by the Dc characters at large. That's very different from another tired Hero "death"

[J Alan Shelton]

There WAS no announced plan.

They've been tight lipped with everything regarding Bruce Wayne EXCEPT for the fact that he would not be Batman for awhile.

Pretty sure Didio said at a con or an interview that Bruces absence would be felt into 2010 but I could have remembered that wrong. That would imply someone else in the cowl during that time.

They didn't say if that would be result of his death, retirement, or apparent loss across time.

Eh, "utlimate fate" certainly seems to imply something "heavier" and certainly more permanent feeling like death or retirement. Being lost in time is just another crazy adventure.

And why should you read Battle for the Cowl since we know Bruce is alive and out there somewhere?

I'm going to assume you mean why shouldn't I.

Because when it was announced it was the big deal in the bat-verse, but to me, personally, that is now completely trumped by a lost in time Bruce Wayne which I care a lot more about. It's obvious we're gonna have someone else under the cowl for awhile but if Bruce is already back in play then I don't see the need to drop the cash on a series of filler titles that will have their affects negated sooner rather than later.

BFTC is about Bruce Wayne being absent, and someone taking on the mantle of Batman.

Which is fine and dandy if you want to read that story. But now we've been presented with another upcoming story with Bruce as the lead. I'd rather just wait for that one since I don't feel that BFTC is going to have any real affect on Bruce when he returns. And to be clear, he is the reason I read the books to begin with. Not Dick or Tim, otherwise I'd read their books. Now, i was under the impression that this status change would be fairly long lasting from something I either read or heard from Didio so I was gonna just ride it out and see where it went, since I kinda had to with no Bruce in sight. However, now that Bruce is already back in play they'll have to shift some kind of focus on him fairly soon and I'd rather just wait for that. All I'm saying is by showing their hand so soon, I lost any interest I had for BFTC. Which as stated, wasn't much to begin with.

Now for the casual reader who thought about picking it up because it was going to be an earthshaking change to the status quo....do you really think they'll still pick it up knowing that Bruce is already back and will maybe even return soon? Of course not, if they're thinking about trying Batman they'll just wait til he returns to his title and then give it a try. Just seemed like a bad move if they were trying to bring some new readers in.

Then there will be stories about whoever takes the mantle for awhile. Eventually, Bruce will be Batman again. The ending doesn't matter, you are supposed to enjoy the ride.

Well, the thing about the ride is it didn't look to good to begin with. I don't trust half the talent involved to give me good story, least of all one that will live up to all the hype being tossed about. If the reviews are good, I'll give it a look, but as of now, my interest has been killed.

That said, I totally understand if people didn't enjoy the ride OR the end of Final Crisis, but come on people. Knowing whether Bruce Wayne is dead or alive has not been the point of a single issue of either of these books, and will not be going forward. Stop deluding yourselves into thinking you've been lied to by hype and marketing, when you are just projecting your own expectations on these things.

I have never said the point was if he was dead or alive, rather that they should have kept the character out of play longer to help settle the reader into this new status quo DC wants us to give a try. It's hard enough to suspend our disbelief that Bats is dead, but when you show us its not, it's hard to buy into any kind of emotional story that follows which I would think is a big part of one of those characters becoming Batman's successor.

And for the record, I loved Final Crisis and would have enjoyed it more if Didio wasn't making such a big deal about Batman's "ultimate fate" being revealed in it as well as it being the "true ending" of RIP. That was over-hyped spin (and, lets face it, an outright lie) and a let down.

I never really had any expectations of what his "ultimate fate" would be, but I had faith in Morrison to deliver. Unfortunately, I don't feel as though he did in regards to what was being promised but the story as a separate unit, existing away from RIP, I think it was pretty solid and entertaining.

[Captain Jim]

First of all, let me say that I won't pick this up until tomorrow. But a few thoughts...

1) Morrison had said all along that Bruce would not die, so that shouldn't have been a big shock to anyone.

2) With absolutely no offense intended, I totally do not comprehend how knowing that Bruce is lost in time and will doubtless return some day would make anyone not want to read BFTC. I mean, if you don't want to read it, that's fine. But I totally do not comprehend how this would make the difference (especially since eveyone already knew he'd be back someday).

3) Since I haven't read it yet, someone spoil me on this. Does everyone in the DCU now assume Bruce is dead? (I mean, everybody except Anthro, I guess.)

4) I'm curious as to whether one of the batbooks post-BFTC might feature the adventures of a lost-in-time Bruce Wayne. Anybody have any thoughts or guesses on this?

[wes_rk]

3) Since I haven't read it yet, someone spoil me on this. Does everyone in the DCU now assume Bruce is dead? (I mean, everybody except Anthro, I guess.)

4) I'm curious as to whether one of the batbooks post-BFTC might feature the adventures of a lost-in-time Bruce Wayne. Anybody have any thoughts or guesses on this?

Spoilers ahead, please do NOT read if you don't want to know what happens in FC#7.



....




3) Yeah, Superman was holding his body while talking to Darkseid so he definitely thinks Batman's dead. Also, Lois, writing the last story of the Final Crisis, says Batman is dead, so yeah, they all think he is dead for good.

4) Bruce Wayne is waaaay in the past (at least that's how I took it, someone enlighten me if this is wrong), so who knows. He looks older in the last page. Let me explain this, you don't see his face, however, you see his hair and head in shadows and looks like he might have a bold spot. So it might be a few years since he's been there when we see him in the last page of Final Crisis.

[wes_rk]

Batman appears alive and well in the past with Anthro, he begins to start making cave paintings, mostly hoping they survive so someone can go into the past and find him

yeah, that's how I took it too.

[Mat001]

Pretty sure Didio said at a con or an interview that Bruces absence would be felt into 2010 but I could have remembered that wrong. That would imply someone else in the cowl during that time.

Yes, but they didn't say who or why.

Eh, "utlimate fate" certainly seems to imply something "heavier" and certainly more permanent feeling like death or retirement. Being lost in time is just another crazy adventure.

All that was said was that Bruce would not be Batman and that he wasn't going to die. Anything else was pure speculation on our part.

I'm going to assume you mean why shouldn't I.

Because when it was announced it was the big deal in the bat-verse, but to me, personally, that is now completely trumped by a lost in time Bruce Wayne which I care a lot more about. It's obvious we're gonna have someone else under the cowl for awhile but if Bruce is already back in play then I don't see the need to drop the cash on a series of filler titles that will have their affects negated sooner rather than later.

Bruce isn't back in play. All that happens is that we learn that he is alive and will become Batman again, but not for a while. Meanwhile, everyone else assumes that he is dead based on the body that Superman was seen holding. In the coming months, we see how everyone tries to deal with the legacy of Batman.

Which is fine and dandy if you want to read that story. But now we've been presented with another upcoming story with Bruce as the lead. I'd rather just wait for that one since I don't feel that BFTC is going to have any real affect on Bruce when he returns.

Pretty big assumption on your part. It might very well have a lasting impact when he does return. He has to not only reclaim his role as Batman, but his life as Bruce Wayne and deal with the effects his apparent death had on his sons.

And to be clear, he is the reason I read the books to begin with. Not Dick or Tim, otherwise I'd read their books. Now, i was under the impression that this status change would be fairly long lasting from something I either read or heard from Didio so I was gonna just ride it out and see where it went, since I kinda had to with no Bruce in sight. However, now that Bruce is already back in play they'll have to shift some kind of focus on him fairly soon and I'd rather just wait for that. All I'm saying is by showing their hand so soon, I lost any interest I had for BFTC. Which as stated, wasn't much to begin with.

They're not showing their hand early. He isn't in play. He's still stuck in the past and it's going to be a while before he is found. Meanwhile in the present, we're seeing life move on without him.

Now for the casual reader who thought about picking it up because it was going to be an earthshaking change to the status quo....do you really think they'll still pick it up knowing that Bruce is already back and will maybe even return soon? Of course not, if they're thinking about trying Batman they'll just wait til he returns to his title and then give it a try. Just seemed like a bad move if they were trying to bring some new readers in.

Again, a lot of assumptions on your part. For instance, I already knew back in 1992 that Superman would be back from the dead, on the day his death was announced. That didn't stop me from reading the books to see the journey to that destination.

I have never said the point was if he was dead or alive, rather that they should have kept the character out of play longer to help settle the reader into this new status quo DC wants us to give a try. It's hard enough to suspend our disbelief that Bats is dead, but when you show us its not, it's hard to buy into any kind of emotional story that follows which I would think is a big part of one of those characters becoming Batman's successor.

Again, he's not in play. He's still very much out of play until he's found.


3) Since I haven't read it yet, someone spoil me on this. Does everyone in the DCU now assume Bruce is dead? (I mean, everybody except Anthro, I guess.)

Yes. When the GL's, Supergirl, the Flashes, Wonder Woman and the Secret Society show up in Command-D, they see Batman's body near Superman. So they're very much aware that he's out of it. In Justice League Of America #30 or 31 hits, that's when Clark and Diana leave the League to deal with their personal issues. I assume that a funeral will be held for Bruce then.

4) I'm curious as to whether one of the batbooks post-BFTC might feature the adventures of a lost-in-time Bruce Wayne. Anybody have any thoughts or guesses on this?

I'm thinking that's what Morrison has in store when he returns later in the year.

[Captain Jim]

Pretty big assumption on your part. It might very well have a lasting impact when he does return. He has to not only reclaim his role as Batman, but his life as Bruce Wayne and deal with the effects his apparent death had on his sons.

Indeed. Everyone else may very well have moved on with their lives by then. It's not like they can just go back to the former status quo.

I'm thinking that's what Morrison has in store when he returns later in the year.

I dunno. Rumor has it that there will be a new Batman & Robin book, I'm assuming with Dick as Batman (or whoever ultimately wins the "battle") and Daimon as Robin. I think Grant would want to write this one. Unless he starts writing two bat-books, which I suppose is possible.

[J Alan Shelton]

1) Morrison had said all along that Bruce would not die, so that shouldn't have been a big shock to anyone.

I've never said I was shocked or surprised he was alive. And as I stated above, I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to believe he would really die. But it needed to be perceived a plausible enough event to remove him from play in the DCU at large to set up what happened next if it were to matter to the reader.

2) With absolutely no offense intended, I totally do not comprehend how knowing that Bruce is lost in time and will doubtless return some day would make anyone not want to read BFTC. I mean, if you don't want to read it, that's fine. But I totally do not comprehend how this would make the difference (especially since eveyone already knew he'd be back someday).

No offense taken. I don't think I've done a very good job explaining my thoughts on here today.

Anyway, to be absolutely fair, I already said I had very little interest due to the creative team to begin with. Simply knowing that Bruce was already back in play in the DCU just reaffirmed that this new Batman may be even more short termed than originally thought. Therefore, for me, it just wasn't worth picking up anymore. A glance at wiki should be all I need to jump back in when I'm ready.

My big criticism on the reveal of Bruce being in the past is aimed at editorial for poor marketing. If someone has been thinking about giving the Batman titles a try, well a new Batman would be a good time. However when word is out that Bruce is already "back", they'd be less inclined to give the titles a try at this time and just wait til Bruce is back in the cowl as the perception, whether true or not, would be he'll be back sooner rather than later.


4) I'm curious as to whether one of the batbooks post-BFTC might feature the adventures of a lost-in-time Bruce Wayne. Anybody have any thoughts or guesses on this?

That is exactly what I'm hoping for at this point. It'd make the most sense that with the reveal this soon, that something like this would have to be in the cards in the near future. Which, again, is where I come from saying I'd rather just save my money and wait since I'll probably be able to read Bruce's adventures in the near future and bypass the other stuff that isn't as interesting to me.

[Captain Jim]

That is exactly what I'm hoping for at this point. It'd make the most sense that with the reveal this soon, that something like this would have to be in the cards in the near future. Which, again, is where I come from saying I'd rather just save my money and wait since I'll probably be able to read Bruce's adventures in the near future and bypass the other stuff that isn't as interesting to me.

(Addressed to everyone) It's worth noting that DC has given us no indication of what the ongoing bat-titles and creative teams will be following BFTC (other than the fact that Batman and Detective will presumably be back and Nightwing, Robin & BOP will not.)

[J Alan Shelton]

Bruce isn't back in play.

Actually, he is. Once we see him, alive and well on the printed page he is back on the board. He doesn't have to feature in one of the Bat books, the important thing is we know his storyline is currently ongoing. He doesn't have to be Batman of Gotham, present day, to be considered "in play". The character is on the board of the DCU, albeit in the past, but he's there and active. He is not out of commission, even if we're left in the dark for the time being.

Again, a lot of assumptions on your part. For instance, I already knew back in 1992 that Superman would be back from the dead, on the day his death was announced. That didn't stop me from reading the books to see the journey to that destination.

Again, no one here actually believes these icons will die and stay dead. More importantly, your Superman example isn't the same thing, because he was actually "dead" at the conclusion of the Death of Superman. We didn't see him wandering around for a couple pages before Reign kicked in. We knew he'd be back, we just weren't sure when and there was no indicator if it would be anytime soon. Best bet was to just enjoy the ride. Here, we've already seen Batman alive and kicking and the premise of his next great big adventure. For me, as a fan of Bruce Wayne, I'm far more interested in continuing this plot point as opposed to the others now that they've already shown us this information. And no way are they gonna just drop that whole story for several months.

[Paul McEnery]

First of all, let me say that I won't pick this up until tomorrow. But a few thoughts...

1) Morrison had said all along that Bruce would not die, so that shouldn't have been a big shock to anyone.

2) With absolutely no offense intended, I totally do not comprehend how knowing that Bruce is lost in time and will doubtless return some day would make anyone not want to read BFTC. I mean, if you don't want to read it, that's fine. But I totally do not comprehend how this would make the difference (especially since eveyone already knew he'd be back someday).

3) Since I haven't read it yet, someone spoil me on this. Does everyone in the DCU now assume Bruce is dead? (I mean, everybody except Anthro, I guess.)

4) I'm curious as to whether one of the batbooks post-BFTC might feature the adventures of a lost-in-time Bruce Wayne. Anybody have any thoughts or guesses on this?

Which means he's contemporary with Vandal Savage.

[Thok]

4) Bruce Wayne is waaaay in the past (at least that's how I took it, someone enlighten me if this is wrong), so who knows. He looks older in the last page. Let me explain this, you don't see his face, however, you see his hair and head in shadows and looks like he might have a bold spot. So it might be a few years since he's been there when we see him in the last page of Final Crisis.

If you look in the back of one page, you can see the rocket that was sent out as a memento capsule near the beginning of the issue.

Also Grant said that Final Crisis would begin with Anthro and end with Kamadi

So, I'm pretty sure you were supposed to interpret that scene as Bruce Wayne got sent to Earth-51. I could be wrong.

[wes_rk]

If you look in the back of one page, you can see the rocket that was sent out as a memento capsule near the beginning of the issue.

Also Grant said that Final Crisis would begin with Anthro and end with Kamadi

So, I'm pretty sure you were supposed to interpret that scene as Bruce Wayne got sent to Earth-51. I could be wrong.

right on, thanks. I don't know why I thought this was the past (maybe the fire scene), given that Kamandi is supposed to be the last human or something among those lines.

So Bruce might be in a parallel Earth instead of the same Earth as the regular DCU just in a different moment?

[Super Buddies Forever]

So...

Batman is stuck in the past. For all of the pontifications of RIP, the fate of Batman is essentially getting zapped by purple lasers and being sent to prehistoric times.

You can call Morrison a genius all you want, but the man has simply lost all storytelling capabilities. He's an idea man who now has serious problems turning them into a narrative. I actually dread the idea of him returning to the Bat-titles.

And I'm not even going to try to argue that this idea is completely wrong for Batman. I hate to say it, but the ambiguous helicopter explosion would have been a more suitable finale than this.

[Mercurialblonde]

So...

Batman is stuck in the past. For all of the pontifications of RIP, the fate of Batman is essentially getting zapped by purple lasers and being sent to prehistoric times.

You can call Morrison a genius all you want, but the man has simply lost all storytelling capabilities. He's an idea man who now has serious problems turning them into a narrative. I actually dread the idea of him returning to the Bat-titles.

And I'm not even going to try to argue that this idea is completely wrong for Batman. I hate to say it, but the ambiguous helicopter explosion would have been a more suitable finale than this.

Read the post above yours. It appears Batman has been sent to Earth 51, and he is the keeper of the flame and the keeper of the stories(the rocket in the background contains the last thing Lois wrote).

Which is kind of cool.

[Paul McEnery]

If you look in the back of one page, you can see the rocket that was sent out as a memento capsule near the beginning of the issue.

Also Grant said that Final Crisis would begin with Anthro and end with Kamadi

So, I'm pretty sure you were supposed to interpret that scene as Bruce Wayne got sent to Earth-51. I could be wrong.

Oh, hang on. Well, that doesn't necessarily mean no Vandal Savage...

Time to read this through a second time.:redface:

[Captain Jim]

Okay, now I'm confused. Is he in the past or not?

[Quinnhop]

Batman appears alive and well in the past with Anthro, he begins to start making cave paintings, mostly hoping they survive so someone can go into the past and find him

Not how I read it.

I read it as thus:

The 4th World was ushered in by Metron giving fire (science) to man (Anthro).

But now...the 5th World has been ushered in. By Bruce giving man the utility belt and the bat symbol. By Bruce giving man "imagination."

The age of men as gods. Literally, it means that Bruce Wayne has become the 4th World's New God representative in the 5th.

Less literally?

"The age of men as Gods" + Morrison's Meta-Textual Writing Style = The reader has become the God of the DC universe. No more Monitors. Only...an audience.

[Sean Whitmore]

Okay, now I'm confused. Is he in the past or not?

People are assuming that, but unless I missed a reference, we don't know for sure where he is.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

The age of men as gods. Literally, it means that Bruce Wayne has become the 4th World's New God representative in the 5th.

Heh. So Rich Johnston deserves a cookie for breaking the "Batman becomes a New God" story.


SEAN

[Thok]

People are assuming that, but unless I missed a reference, we don't know for sure where he is.


SEAN

The old man he's with is either Anthro or Kamandi. Given that Morrison has repeatedly said that the series ends with Kamandi on the last page, it's likely him, which makes it not the past. (If it is Anthro, it's in the past.)

Probably Morrison will say something in the next week or so to clear it up. There really ought to have been a text bubble.

[Quinnhop]

Heh. So Rich Johnston deserves a cookie for breaking the "Batman becomes a New God" story.


SEAN

MorrisonQuitley for "BatGod" 09

(What? Fake campaign tags are still hip, aren't they?)

[Sean Whitmore]

The old man he's with is either Anthro or Kamandi. Given that Morrison has repeatedly said that the series ends with Kamandi on the last page, it's likely him, which makes it not the past. (If it is Anthro, it's in the past.)

Did he say Kamandi would be on the last page, or that the story would end with him? Because I figured the scene with him holding Superman's cape was what Morrison meant. The Batman scene is really just an epilogue.


Probably Morrison will say something in the next week or so to clear it up.

I very much doubt it. I don't think we're supposed to know where/when Batman is for a while.


SEAN

[Spiffy]

Batman's ultimate fate!

He's in a cave! Whooooo! In. A. Cave.

Well, they've been selling THAT a bit too hard, haven't they?

[Thok]

Did he say Kamandi would be on the last page, or that the story would end with him? Because I figured the scene with him holding Superman's cape was what Morrison meant. The Batman scene is really just an epilogue.

His comments at San Diego Comic Con 07 specifically said that Kamandi would be on the last page, and Anthro on the first page. To be fair, that last scene might be thing which DC asked him to add.

(Also, there's the memento rocket. It doesn't really make any sense for it to be sent to the past, while it does fit with what's been written to send it to another universe.)

I very much doubt it. I don't think we're supposed to know where/when Batman is for a while.

Morrison's been very liberal with giving out spoilers for a while. And the final scene feels like it's not supposed to be that subtle.

[Sean Whitmore]

Morrison's been very liberal with giving out spoilers for a while.

True, I just mean I don't think there's a spoiler to give just yet.

I don't have anything to base it on, I just feel like the idea is to let Bruce cool his heels for a bit until the idea for how to bring him back is decided upon.


SEAN

[jgiannantoni05]

Is Batman with Anthro or Kamandi? Our Earth or another earth? I think the answer to the fist Q will help answer the second question.

I keep hearing that Kamandi and his world are now Earth-51. So that leaves Bruce on our Earth with old Anthro.

Someone astutely pointed this out on the DC Boards:

To those who wondered about why Batman was in the cave at the end....

This was probably a reference to how the Omega Beams sent Sonny Sumo and the Forever People to different era's back in the Kirby Days, showing that the Omega Sanction gives us the same thing, as well as alluding to the Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman symbols painted on the cave wall on the sliver cover of issue #1.

I think this is probably right. Batman escaped the living hell of the Omega Sanction, regaining his body, but landing in prehistoric times as the final consequence of the beam.
________
MARIJUANA MEDICAL (http://medicalmarijuana.us/)

[Vidocq]

The Fact that Batman isn't dead is the Best Part of all this. I preffer him coming back in a DeLorian saying ''What are you doing with my Cowl? Take it off, it's to big for you.'' than him being revived by some Trekkie Revification Machine or The Supernatural. You know I may get BFTC now, I wasn't planing to but this new development restored my hope.

[Spiffy]

I think this is probably right. Batman escaped the living hell of the Omega Sanction, regaining his body, but landing in prehistoric times as the final consequence of the beam.

So...

Batman's fate is tracking down Vandal Savage for a game of chess maybe? :tongue:

[Vidocq]

Batman's ultimate fate!

He's in a cave! Whooooo! In. A. Cave.

Well, they've been selling THAT a bit too hard, haven't they?

Wonder if That is the Biggest revelation in 70 years that Morrison and Didio were talking about...



BTW, did #7 explained the Batcorpse Superman was holding?

[Sean Whitmore]

So...

Batman's fate is tracking down Vandal Savage for a game of chess maybe? :tongue:

Batman vs. Vandal Savage for the heart of Sabretoothwoman at the dawn of time!

I'd buy it.


SEAN

[hitokiri_]

Bruce Wayne

Born: May 1939 Died: January 2009

Resurrected: January 2009

WTF?!

well that was quick. i was expecting a resurrection in like 6 months or so. but... i was mistaken.

[Paul McEnery]

Bruce Wayne

Born: May 1939 Died: January 2009

Resurrected: January 2009

WTF?!

well that was quick. i was expecting a resurrection in like 6 months or so. but... i was mistaken.

To be fair, if he's living at the dawn of time, he's probably pushing up the daisies by now. :biggrin:

[Jake V]

Bruce Wayne

Born: May 1939 Died: January 2009

Resurrected: January 2009

WTF?!

well that was quick. i was expecting a resurrection in like 6 months or so. but... i was mistaken.

He never died. There was no resurrection.

[hitokiri_]

He never died. There was no resurrection.

unless rip hunter and booster gold placed bats' skeleton before the sanction hits him, im pretty convinced he died. only to be resurrected on a different planet.

[hitokiri_]

To be fair, if he's living at the dawn of time, he's probably pushing up the daisies by now. :biggrin:

only to be rescued by rip hunter and booster gold.

[hitokiri_]

Not how I read it.

I read it as thus:

The 4th World was ushered in by Metron giving fire (science) to man (Anthro).

But now...the 5th World has been ushered in. By Bruce giving man the utility belt and the bat symbol. By Bruce giving man "imagination."

.

and prep time.

i finally see it. that's why he's a prepgod. he's prepared since the dawn of time.

[wes_rk]

and prep time.

i finally see it. that's why he's a prepgod. he's prepared since the dawn of time.

LOL :biggrin:

When is the next interview with Morrison? I think we might know where/when Bruce is next time Morrison speaks/writes.

[nepenthes]

so.....

what the hell was that? :biggrin: :rolleyes:

[DCKar2nist]

I have a question, in the Batman books now theyre all reacting to his absence/death are they referring to the ambiguous crash of RIP or the omega hurt in FC? And if it's FC will it be explained how he got out of the crash to appear in FC or are the two series wholly independent of each other with no connection to speak of, which would be strange considering they both fall under the current DC Universe umbrella.

[HaroldAllnut]

Is Anthro sleeping or is he dead? When I first read it, I thought that he died, but maybe I'm wrong, since Batman handed him the utility belt. What's everyone's thoughts on that?

Which means he's contemporary with Vandal Savage.So... Batman's fate is tracking down Vandal Savage for a game of chess maybe? :tongue:

That'd make for an interesting one-shot.

Batman's ultimate fate! He's in a cave! Whooooo! In. A. Cave. Well, they've been selling THAT a bit too hard, haven't they?

All's fair in love and comics, I guess...

BTW, did #7 explained the Batcorpse Superman was holding?

I figured that the Omega Sanction fries the corporeal body and projects the victim's consciousness into a series of increasingly oppressive lives; at least, that's the way it seemed back in Seven Soldiers of Victory.

My guess is that Superman's use of the Miracle Machine pulled Bruce's consciousness out of the oppression of the Omega Sanction and created a new, corporeal body for him at an early point in Earth-1's timestream.

[comicstar100]

Is Anthro sleeping or is he dead? When I first read it, I thought that he died, but maybe I'm wrong, since Batman handed him the utility belt. What's everyone's thoughts on that?



That'd make for an interesting one-shot.



All's fair in love and comics, I guess...



I figured that the Omega Sanction fries the corporeal body and projects the victim's consciousness into a series of increasingly oppressive lives; at least, that's the way it seemed back in Seven Soldiers of Victory.

My guess is that Superman's use of the Miracle Machine pulled Bruce's consciousness out of the oppression of the Omega Sanction and created a new, corporeal body for him at an early point in Earth-1's timestream. So does that mean he will need to some how return to his old body? Also is the Justice League of America book acknowledging that Bruce is presumed dead at all?

[Sean Whitmore]

Also is the Justice League of America book acknowledging that Bruce is presumed dead at all?

The current Justice League arc takes place before Final Crisis.


SEAN

[comicstar100]

The current Justice League arc takes place before Final Crisis.


SEAN Wasn't aware, I would argue thats part of the problem with the book. JLA should be the heartbeat of the rest of the DCU.

[jgiannantoni05]

My guess as to what happened:

Hit by Omega Sanction, which is not death, but perpetual living hell, each life getting worse. He escapes this (not much of our time passes while he's in the Sanction), gets a new or regenerated body, but the final effect/punishment of the beam is to send freed Batman with Anthro in prehistoric times, just like in the old Fourth World stories where the beam would send them to different eras.
________
Suzuki Gsv-R800 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Suzuki_GSV-R800)

[HopeLantern]

Hey All,
Just wondering... we know Bruce is stuck in the past, but I'm still not sure I understand the entire "Omega Sanction" thingy. So does he die, and live a brand new life, that's worse then living in the cave? And keep doing this? Forever?

Also, did you notice that his figure had gray hair, and what looked like a beard growing. I got that he was near the end of his life which was why he was drawing the Bat symbol on the wall, and would soon be dying as well. As a last ditch effort to alert the JLA where he is, he drew the symbol on the wall.

Just a thought, too. I see both sides of the argument. I don't think Bruce being alive kills interest in BFTC. I'm still just as interested in who becomes the New Batman, and will pick up the entire mini. However, I am just more interested now in what becomes of Bruce. I really can't wait until Morrison returns to writing duties, b/c to me, the title "Batman" is about Bruce at it's core. What happens to him, what happens with him, how does being Batman effect his life. Now that he's stuck in the past (or is it even another earth?) how will he survive? How does he spend his days? How does he keep his sanity? How will surviving this make him a better Batman? Will his humanity slowly creep away? If he's the ultimate detective, will he figure out how to get out of this on his on? This is dare I say, the biggest challenge Bruce has ever faced as the ultimate human. THAT to me is the story I want to see expanded on. BFTC will end in 3 issues, then after that it's "Okay, it's a new Batman." Then we will spend the next year looking at how Dick (or Tim, I guess) constantly thinks that they aren't measuring up to the original or we will see them as a different Batman that is actually better than Bruce. Both of those are fine, and I'm really hoping they go for the latter one. However, I'm just more interested in what happens with Bruce, now that I know he's alive. I hope this came across clearly.

[fb1990]

Is it just me or does anyone find the idea of Bruce Wayne doing cave drawings at the end of Final Crisis #7 seem funny to anyone? This is in light of Action Comics #864 (I think?) where he says to Superman (about Lightening Lad) " What if he steps on the wrong butterfly?"

...

I think its just me.

[Retro315]

It's hard to say whether or not Batman is on New Earth in the past, or even what Earth he's on. Maybe "Anthro Earth" is part of the Kirby Earth-51's past, or maybe it's on it's own Earth, where the "present" of that Earth is what would be the past of ours (like how the Batman Beyond Earth everything is like 40 years ahead).

But it seems to me by drawing the Bat-Signal on the wall where no doubt somebody like Batman would KNOW that Cal Carson discovered THAT particular Metron inspired Cave-Painting later on ... and by leaving his Utility Belt there, he's leaving evidence for Superman and the JLA in the future to find, so that they'll know where he is.

So, after Final Crisis, say Cal Carson and his team are still checking out the New York City cave-painting site, and they find this 12,000 year old belt, that looks a hell of a lot like Batman's utility belt.

Or maybe Checkmate finds it, and they send Ray Palmer and Montoya back to get him.

Or something along those lines.

Or, best choice yet, and hilarious.

If Booster Gold saves Batman.

[Spiffy]

I figured that the Omega Sanction fries the corporeal body and projects the victim's consciousness into a series of increasingly oppressive lives; at least, that's the way it seemed back in Seven Soldiers of Victory.

My guess is that Superman's use of the Miracle Machine pulled Bruce's consciousness out of the oppression of the Omega Sanction and created a new, corporeal body for him at an early point in Earth-1's timestream.

It kind of sucks that we're left having to cobble this all together ourselves. Although I suppose that's also to get us to buy MORE comics--to explain this.

It does fit in with a theory I put forth here months ago. That this was all a scheme to get Bruce into a younger body, to help extend his life in a way that kept him on par with the subtle expectations of aging we have from his proteges getting older. Superman and Wonder Woman both have built in ways to handle this, but Batman doesn't.

I got some agreement and some skepticism when I suggested that way back... but presuming his trip to the past is only temporary... it would still work, wouldn't it? Unless this trip to the past is the beginning of a death and reincarnation cycle, moving him forward in time each step, until THAT'S how he gets back in the present. The problem with that would be how that re-inserts him back into his old life, a year or so down the line when people are tired of Dick as Batman (or whoever...)

[Sean Whitmore]

It could still work. I doubt if we'd get any in-story dialogue specifying it, but at the very least it could be an unofficial reason for him staying so young for so long.


SEAN

[AJM]

I posted this in a different thread and no-one seemed to be interested:

"Batman #680: Jim Gordon tiptoes through Wayne Manor, right past some old family portraits. These include Silas Wayne and Mordecai Wayne - Mordecai is wearing a cape. Can it be that Bruce is actually from a long lineage of "Batmen"?

They weren't all called that, of course, but they have all overcome tragedy and transformed their agony into some form of altruism. We know Thomas did this as a doctor, and he was also the first to wear a bat costume ("The First Batman"). But we know little of Wayne family history - maybe each and every male member of the family witnessed his parents die too?"

Now, after FC7, i think i was kind of right: that painting of Mordecai is Bruce Wayne, who has been fighting his way through time and has been the enemy of all Evil ("the Devil") since the dawn of man.

[vitruvian]

The old man he's with is either Anthro or Kamandi. Given that Morrison has repeatedly said that the series ends with Kamandi on the last page, it's likely him, which makes it not the past. (If it is Anthro, it's in the past.)

Probably Morrison will say something in the next week or so to clear it up. There really ought to have been a text bubble.

His recent 'exit interview' says that he ended up changing it so it ends with Anthro as well. So that's Anthro, in the past.

[carabas]

Mordecai is wearing a cape. Can it be that Bruce is actually from a long lineage of "Batmen"?I don't know. Look's like a regular pilgrim's costume to me.

[Retro315]

Ah, Batman and Vandal Savage.

So ...

Do we get a time-paradox?

Does Savage KNOW where Batman is, in the past ...

And is it all the more ironic now that Savage it the ultimate pariah, and that all living things on Earth hate him and cast him out?

Who would be strong enough in willpower to be able to ask Vandal Savage about Batman through that "pariah sanction" that the Spectre put on him? Who has the force of will to basically ignore a spell from as powerful an entity as the Spectre?

Hal Jordan, that's who.

A lot of people showed up in force to prove a point to Mandrakk that there's no limit to the creativity of these stories ... but Hal was the fastest, first one willing to impale the bastard.

And if you have the courage to try killing a space god ...

Make that, Hal Jordan and Booster Gold save Batman.

It's even funnier, because Bats really doesn't like either of them.

[AJM]

I don't know. Look's like a regular pilgrim's costume to me.

It is a pilgrim costume (with a cape-type-thing), yes, but why choose this particular era and costume to show us in the penultimate part of RIP? Everything's there for a reason, and evidently Morrison's plan was always to send him back in time.

[carabas]

Well, if you're right, then he'd have been the first superhero to take off his cape when he gets into costume.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Ok, so when Bruce returns will the story be called "Bat to the Future"?:biggrin:

[converge241]

Batman appears alive and well in the past with Anthro, he begins to start making cave paintings, mostly hoping they survive so someone can go into the past and find him

I took it as him being "de-volved" and just painting what he knew in his head..otherwise why not write words and instructions etc. I believe with the parallel they had to Sunny Sumo he said he wasnt quite himself (if I recall right) so maybe he has the caveman mentality

[Captain Jim]

His recent 'exit interview' says that he ended up changing it so it ends with Anthro as well. So that's Anthro, in the past.

Newsarama: Grant, let’s start wide focus here – what, when you first started plotting out and planning Final Crisis was your goal? What was the A and what was the Z?

Grant Morrison: The A was Anthro and the Z was Kamandi. First Boy to Last Boy, with the whole DC Multiverse in between. In the end, as I got really into the story, it changed shape a little and now concludes, as it began, with the First Boy, now an Old Man.

Apart from that, my simple goal was to reach the end without too much hassle and/or interference! Apart from one scene at the end, which I included at DC’s request...

So that settles it. It's Anthro, which means he's in the past.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010928-Grant-Final-Crisis.html

[Captain Jim]

is the Justice League of America book acknowledging that Bruce is presumed dead at all?

As I understand it, that will be the theme of #31, which will be the first post-FC issue.

http://www.dccomics.com/media/product/1/1/11301_180x270.jpg


Written by Dwayne McDuffie; Art by Shane Davis and Sandra Hope; Cover by Ed Benes

Death, destruction and betrayal! The fallout from FINAL CRISIS leaves the Justice League of America on the brink of dissolution. Black Canary faces her greatest test as she tries to hold her devastated team together. Will those who remain be enough to save the world?

DC Universe | 32pg. | Color | $2.99 US


On Sale March 18, 2009

[hunter_peterson]

Right, so, all of this is so we can have a DKR-esque Batman upon his return.

That's a bit weird. Although his rescue/recovery will be classic. Hehehe.

[Sean Whitmore]

Right, so, all of this is so we can have a DKR-esque Batman upon his return.

You mean old?


SEAN

[lepeos]

I took it as him being "de-volved" and just painting what he knew in his head..otherwise why not write words and instructions etc. I believe with the parallel they had to Sunny Sumo he said he wasnt quite himself (if I recall right) so maybe he has the caveman mentality

I guess writing something coherent is a bit like the old 'stepping on a butterfly'. Wouldn't doing that like evolve language and the human race way before it's supposed to? If archaeologists found a bat symbol they'd probably just think its some pagan worship

I can't help but feel I just looked into something way too much, but anyway, that JLA cover look awesome

[maniacthw]

If Bruce is "alive somewhere"... Wouldn't it just make sense for him to come back to start the Batman Beyond storyline?

[Tobias March]

You mean old?


SEAN

I'd assume so....Now that Miller-earth is dead. Boo-ya! :tongue:

[lepeos]

Just re-read FC3, on page 6 or 7 there's a brief panel of people finding the Metron symbol in the subway or something and I think a womans head obscures where the Bat symbol would be.

[wes_rk]

Just re-read FC3, on page 6 or 7 there's a brief panel of people finding the Metron symbol in the subway or something and I think a womans head obscures where the Bat symbol would be.

this one right here?

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6203/imagen1dx3.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imagen1dx3.jpg)

[lepeos]

That's the one, I guess it could be argued that the whole ultimate fate of Batman was always going to be the lost in time thing, I mean coupled with that and the point about of the variant cover to FC1 having cave symbols on it, so the re-writes mustn't have affected him.

[Death by Mime]

I posted this in a different thread and no-one seemed to be interested:

"Batman #680: Jim Gordon tiptoes through Wayne Manor, right past some old family portraits. These include Silas Wayne and Mordecai Wayne - Mordecai is wearing a cape. Can it be that Bruce is actually from a long lineage of "Batmen"?

They weren't all called that, of course, but they have all overcome tragedy and transformed their agony into some form of altruism. We know Thomas did this as a doctor, and he was also the first to wear a bat costume ("The First Batman"). But we know little of Wayne family history - maybe each and every male member of the family witnessed his parents die too?"

Now, after FC7, i think i was kind of right: that painting of Mordecai is Bruce Wayne, who has been fighting his way through time and has been the enemy of all Evil ("the Devil") since the dawn of man.

I think this has been done? I recall reading about a Batman story that had Bruce Wayne's ancestors battling Vandal Savage throughout the centuries, although I never read the story itself.

I have this vague idea of Batman leaving anthropological clues to help heroes track down criminals in the present day. Weird Bat-artifacts discovered all throughout history that point the way to uncovering evil plots. The idea feels right to me, but I don't think it would work in execution.

[Jmacq1]

It's beginning to sound like they've turned Batman into Hawkman....

[Elitehaxxor]

I don't know if anyone said this or not, but is it possible that they will do a Batman in the past type book? Like TOR with Bruce Wayne instead of the caveman? It may have been done too many times already, the whole prehistoric time thing, but it may be cool with Bruce as the lead character.

[HaroldAllnut]

It's beginning to sound like they've turned Batman into Hawkman....

There's absolutely no way, even with Professor Nichols' time-meddling, that Bruce's history will ever become as convoluted as Carter's.

[Paul McEnery]

You know, I could very easily be nerdy enough to get that miracle machine emblem as a tattoo.

[Mat001]

I don't know if anyone said this or not, but is it possible that they will do a Batman in the past type book? Like TOR with Bruce Wayne instead of the caveman? It may have been done too many times already, the whole prehistoric time thing, but it may be cool with Bruce as the lead character.

I'm think that Morrison might do that one. It's right up his alley.

[Captain Jim]

I don't know if anyone said this or not, but is it possible that they will do a Batman in the past type book?


I'm curious as to whether one of the batbooks post-BFTC might feature the adventures of a lost-in-time Bruce Wayne.


Yep, someone did. :wink:

[Captain Jim]

...................

[Jonesy47]

Why does everyone think that batmans in the past?
He's trapped in the universe that died at the end of 52.
You can tell, because when you see the cavemen in the beginning of final crisis, there's a dilapitated statue of liberty and the time capsule with "earths last story" and batmans utility belt in it.

I think that the caveman land was existing simultaneously to Final Crisis and that the metron symbol on their heads kept their universe from being affected.

[BenjaminAndrewMoore]

Why does everyone think that batmans in the past?
He's trapped in the universe that died at the end of 52.
You can tell, because when you see the cavemen in the beginning of final crisis, there's a dilapitated statue of liberty and the time capsule with "earths last story" and batmans utility belt in it.

First of all, that was Countdown, not 52. Secondly, ignore Countdown's existence. Thirdly, there's no dilapidated Statue of Liberty where Bruce and the caveman are. The caveman had a bad dream with said statue in it, in Final Crisis #1, but that wasn't physically happening.

[Red_Knight]

So, I just reread FC#7, and something occured to me:

Can we be sure the shadowy guy on the last page is really Bruce? I mean, sure, that's what we all assumed, ... but there's an entirely different possibility I haven't seen mentioned so far:

As the aged Anthro sits by the fire, the time capsule that the heroes of New Earth sent into space can be seen in the distance. (Go check it out. It's clearly visible!) We know that the ship contained a number of mementos from New Earth, among them the final issue of the Daily Planet (which reported the death of Batman) and a miniature bat signal. What if the suit Batman wore on his final adventure was included as well? It's possible; -- the cape and cowl can be seen draped over the arm rest of the Moebius Chair as Superman and Kara work on the Miracle Machine, so Bruce was definitely not buried in costume. Maybe the rest of the outfit found its way into the time capsule and was simply taken by an impresssed caveman, -- much like young Anthro accepted the gift of fire from Metron. There'd be an undeniable symmetry to that, and we know how much Morrison likes those.

If you take a close look at the pants our prehistoric mystery man is wearing, you'll notice that they seem to have the same tears and holes as the pants we last see Batman in. This could be a conincidence, of course. Then again, it might not.

Besides, if the Omega Beams had simply transported Bruce to the past, the smouldering corpse that Superman finds at Command-D shouldn't exist. It has been established that the Omega Beams can send an individual to another time, but I don't think we've ever seen anything left behind in those cases. If you think about it for a second, it doesn't make a lick of sense, either. In order to accept the notion that Bruce was sent back in time, we'd have to assume that the Omega Effect somehow manufactured a burned, fully costumed decoy corpse in his place. I find that hard to buy.

The caption on the last page of FC#7 says, "But the fire burns forever". I'm not sure that statement fits the idea of a time-displaced Bruce drawing on cave walls. It does, however, fit the image of someone new -- inspired by Batman like Anthro was by Metron -- taking over the job of the "story keeper", though.

What do you think?

[Green-lantern-king]

its for sure thats batman at the last page,do to the fact that batman's lost in time,he probably got sent that far back in time

[Green-lantern-king]

its for sure thats batman at the last page,do to the fact that batman's lost in time,he probably got sent that far back in time.But maybe theres a possibility that his mind and spirit got transfered to a different person back in time by the beams.

[Green-lantern-king]

Why does everyone think that batmans in the past?
He's trapped in the universe that died at the end of 52.
You can tell, because when you see the cavemen in the beginning of final crisis, there's a dilapitated statue of liberty and the time capsule with "earths last story" and batmans utility belt in it.

I think that the caveman land was existing simultaneously to Final Crisis and that the metron symbol on their heads kept their universe from being affected.

its already been confirmed that batman's in the past,what has not been confirmed is he in that cave with the cavemen,and if not were in point in time he is

[carabas]

So, I just reread FC#7, and something occured to me:

Can we be sure the shadowy guy on the last page is really Bruce? Yes. Because Morrison isn't reallly one to lie about such things in interviews.

If you think about it for a second, it doesn't make a lick of sense, either. In order to accept the notion that Bruce was sent back in time, we'd have to assume that the Omega Effect somehow manufactured a burned, fully costumed decoy corpse in his place. I find that hard to buy.The decoy Bat-Corpse was one of Mokari's failed Batman-clone army, as per Batman & Robin #8.

[Green-lantern-king]

confirmed on wizard 222 :when batman met his untimely demise at the end of grant morrisons final crisis,the man beneath the cowl walked not into a white light,but in a dark cave. this spring,fans find out how darkseids omega beam rendered Bruce Wayne a man out of time. the six issue miniseries straight from the mind of Morrison,batman:the return of Bruce Wayne begins in April and will follow the original caped crusaders as he travels through time in space on a quest to return to the present day of Gotham city.how will batman pull it off?heres a hint: it involves donning some serious period costumes designed by Andy kubert, including pirate duds and caveman get up.And theres the story