How come the Doom Patrol never really took off like the X-Men did?

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

From being almost canceled to being one of most popular multi-media franchises both in and outside North America, the X-Men have come a long way. Since the X-men were Marvel's version of the Doom Patrol (and vice versa), how come the DP never saw the success the X-franchise did?

[rick]

The X-Men, at least back in the 1960's were much more of a old fashioned superhero team, while the Doom Patrol was always pretty weird, right frm the start.

Oh sure in X-Men you had lots of soap pera and plenty of metaphors about bigotry, but it was still all told in what were fairly straight forward superhero stories.

Meanwhile, the Doom Patrol were going around being miserable and depressing while fighting a brain in a big bottle along with its French speaking gorilla sidekick / love interest, and a evil female version of Plastic Man.

A perfect example of how out of the ordinary the Doom Patrol is when they canceled the book and killed the entire team alng with it.

Today when death is s commn, it's hard to understand just how extreme a move that was at the time.

But that was the Doom Patrol, a book about tragic characters, fighting a hopeless battle and ocassionaly wining.

The book would have done much better in the 70's, but in 1967, it was just to far ahead of its time.

[HaroldAllnut]

I've still got my fingers crossed for a relaunch.

[Karl O'Neill]

I think Gerad way is doing a doom patrol mini soon.

[bookguy]

My theory to as why the DP never became the francise that it could have been is simply this:

The God-of-all-Comics didn't stay on to continue the further adventures of DP in a second of a third-part trilolgy along with the artist Richard Case.

:mad:

Here's to hoping for a 2nd volume re-launch of the DP by you-know-who and you-also-know-who.

:biggrin:

[carabas]

The X-Men didn't take off either. Not initially. It was Marvel's orst selling book. It was as good as canceled, just running reprints.

Then Claremont and Byrne happened and history was made.

[TROUBLEZ]

Yeah. When X-Men did take off, they had popular characters like Wolverine who had claws and killed people.

Doom Patrol didn't have that appeal.

[Ghost Shark]

I like to pretend that every single appearance by the Doom Patrol after Grant Morrison's departure never really happened.

Rachel Pollack's issues drove me from the book. I ventured back for a peek at Ted McKeever's issues and ran away screaming.

When it was relaunched a few years later and featured that Thayer Joss guy, I took a look and wondered where the Doom Patrol was.

And then, allowing John Byrne to simply ignore all past continuity and resuurrect Larry and Rita was the biggest misstep in the history of the Doom Patrol. The only appearance of theirs that I've enjoyed since was in THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD, and even then, I had bite my tongue a lot.

John Byrne screwed them up with his fanboy adoration of the original team. I hope to hell someone can come along and fix them.

[The Crime Dentist]

X-Men never took off either, at least not the original concept. The original team wasn't a huge success, and the book was essentially canceled in the 70s - it was nothing but reprints for quite a while.

It wasn't until Giant Size X-Men in the mid 70s, with a totally different team, that the X-Men concept took off.

[rick]

I like to pretend that every single appearance by the Doom Patrol after Grant Morrison's departure never really happened.


I second that.

What a disaster every attempt since Morrisons run has been.

[Michael P]

The X-Men didn't take off either. Not initially. It was Marvel's orst selling book. It was as good as canceled, just running reprints.

Then Claremont and Byrne happened and history was made.
Claremont & Cockrum. Byrne came later.
Yeah. When X-Men did take off, they had popular characters like Wolverine who had claws and killed people.

Doom Patrol didn't have that appeal.

Actually, Wolverine was the least popular of the new group of X-Men. A lot of fans wanted him killed. It wasn't until Byrne started pushing him to the fore that he became popular.

[Ontir]

The re-launches of the Doom Patrol didn't have the same fan favourites working on them for the most part. Even the best of the bunch, Morrison's 80's run had a very quirky artist who was more "Vertigo" than "DC," and that didn't sell the series to the broader audience. Who knows, had Chris Claremont gone to DC and taken on the Doom Patrol at that time, maybe "New X-Men" of the 70's would've fizzled with a lesser writer after Wein's very quick departure.

[pariah-1972]

I imagine because the DP didn't have Lee and Kirby which i'm sure helped it a lot, not to mention they were constantly running into the main marvel universe in just about every issue.

From what i've seen Doom Patrol has mostly been left to be in it's own little world even if they do reside in the general DC universe most times.

[carabas]

Claremont & Cockrum. Byrne came later.I know. But it were the Byrne arcs (Hellfire Club, Dark Phoenix saga, Days Of Future Past...) that really made the book. Th book wasn't an instant hit as soon as Claremont started on it.

[dancj]

I second that.

What a disaster every attempt since Morrisons run has been.
Nah - The John Arcudi series was good

[Aaron King]

I second the positive review of the Arcudi series. It tried to use the Vertigo continuity without appealing to simple resurrections of the old team.

I mean, I can't get how someone can look at it and say, "I don't like it. Where's the Doom Patrol?" and then criticize Byrne for having all the old Doom Patrol.

[celticguy]

The classic lineup was not very interesting. The original Xmen at least had powers that were cool from a kids perspective.

I think the Doom patrol was just a little too wierd when it launched. Morrison made it cool for a while though so they certainly can be handled better.

[Shellhead]

I agree with Rick that the original Doom Patrol was too far ahead of its time. The Showcase relaunch seemed like a weak imitation of the New X-Men, lacking any real creative spark to entice readers. Same problem for the Kupperberg relaunch, though I will reluctantly admit that I sort of enjoyed the first few issues, at least for the Lightle artwork.

Morrison's Doom Patrol was too inaccessible to most readers. It started out brilliantly, but eventually descended into unreadable madness. Exceptionally bizarre things happened, characters shouted out obscure concepts, and otherwise there was no plot, just a series of unrelated events. Subsequent creators were daunted by the prospect of emulating a critically-acclaimed writer who eventually churned out deliberate nonsense.

The Byrne re-boot was horrible. It arose from the surprisingly awful Tenth Circle storyline that started in JLA #94, and was nothing less than a complete repudiation of every Doom Patrol story that was ever told. Byrne claimed that he loved the Doom Patrol, but he loved them so much that he wiped out all of their history, only to replace it with a boring retro take that included an annoying Kitty Pryde-wannabe.

I believe that Infinite Crisis retconned the Byrne re-boot, so that all of the old Doom Patrol stories are now back in continuity. It doesn't really matter these days, as nobody has really been able to re-capture the spark of either the original Doom Patrol or the Morrison run.

[Sandy Hausler]

The X-Men didn't take off either. Not initially. It was Marvel's orst selling book. It was as good as canceled, just running reprints.

Then Claremont and Byrne happened and history was made.

Actually, it was Wein and Cochram, but we get the picture.

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

I know. But it were the Byrne arcs (Hellfire Club, Dark Phoenix saga, Days Of Future Past...) that really made the book. Th book wasn't an instant hit as soon as Claremont started on it.

Well, it certainly was a hit before Byrne came. I think it was a success pretty much from the start.

Sandy Hausler

[Shellhead]

X-Men was still published bi-monthly before Byrne took over pencils. Was that due to low sales or slow work by Cockrum?

[AugustEngine]

Doom Patrol never had Wolverine.

[Firebringer27]

I second the positive review of the Arcudi series. It tried to use the Vertigo continuity without appealing to simple resurrections of the old team.

I mean, I can't get how someone can look at it and say, "I don't like it. Where's the Doom Patrol?" and then criticize Byrne for having all the old Doom Patrol.

I'll jump on the four seated Arcudi's Doom Patrol bandwagon. It was, like nearly every great Doom Patrol series, five years ahead of its time.

I had never read Doom Patrol before the comic (since then, I've read Grant Morrison's run) and I jumped on with an entirely new team of awesome freaky characters who never had the chance to grow.

If anything, Arcudi's Doom Patrol was Grant Morrison with linear storytelling and a sense of humor mired with Geoff Johns' love for continuity without either one's tendency to change everything that has gone before.

I'd even go as far as to say that Arcudi at his best was on par with Morrison. Not in terms of ideas, but the entertainment value and its trademark quirkness.

The comic stands in my mind as the best cancelled comic book ever along with Major Bummer and Hourman...

And this is coming from a guy who thinks Morrison can do no wrong...

Goddamn, I hate you all a little now for not doing your upmost to keep these three comics alive in its heyday...

[spidervenom]

Dan Didio did confirm a relaunch of Doom Patrol in one of those Newsarama 20 question things. not sure if it's going to be an ongoing or mini, though. NYcc should provide more details.

[pariah-1972]

I imagine because the DP didn't have Lee and Kirby which i'm sure helped it a lot, not to mention they were constantly running into the main marvel universe in just about every issue.

From what i've seen Doom Patrol has mostly been left to be in it's own little world even if they do reside in the general DC universe most times.

[DonEMC]

I actually liked the John Arcudi DP because it was pretty original and had promise. But, there were issues that were fairly boring and hard to understand (and, yes, I read and understood the Morrison issues). I did think the art throughout that series was great. I loved Tan Eng Huat's art and there was the Rick Geary issue that was beautiful.
Byrne's series, I thought, would be very close to the original DP, so I had very high hopes for it and I was sorely disappointed. I didn't like the four-armed ape (why was that even there), I didn't like the Kitty Pryde clone and I didn't like the new look for Negative Man.
However, I don't like the DP as written by Geoff Johns. I don't think the Chief was ever such a jerk in the original series and I really don't like how Rita acts.
I DID like the Kupperberg/Lightle series and even enjoyed the Erik Larsen issues (Yikes!). Things were pretty cool until Graham Nolan took over and the art went from lively and exciting to drab. And, don't get me wrong, I like Nolan's art, but, at that time, I didn't think it was that great.
I thought Lightle captured the look and feel that I loved when Premiani was drawing the book. I wish Lightle could have stayed on the book a lot longer.
I wish someone could figure out a new and creative way to write the DP. This is a great team and a great concept and it's just waiting on another Grant Morrison to come along and revitalize it.

[DonEMC]

I actually liked the John Arcudi DP because it was pretty original and had promise. But, there were issues that were fairly boring and hard to understand (and, yes, I read and understood the Morrison issues). I did think the art throughout that series was great. I loved Tan Eng Huat's art and there was the Rick Geary issue that was beautiful.
Byrne's series, I thought, would be very close to the original DP, so I had very high hopes for it and I was sorely disappointed. I didn't like the four-armed ape (why was that even there), I didn't like the Kitty Pryde clone and I didn't like the new look for Negative Man.
However, I don't like the DP as written by Geoff Johns. I don't think the Chief was ever such a jerk in the original series and I really don't like how Rita acts.
I DID like the Kupperberg/Lightle series and even enjoyed the Erik Larsen issues (Yikes!). Things were pretty cool until Graham Nolan took over and the art went from lively and exciting to drab. And, don't get me wrong, I like Nolan's art, but, at that time, I didn't think it was that great.
I thought Lightle captured the look and feel that I loved when Premiani was drawing the book. I wish Lightle could have stayed on the book a lot longer.
I wish someone could figure out a new and creative way to write the DP. This is a great team and a great concept and it's just waiting on another Grant Morrison to come along and revitalize it.

[Jaded Devil]

As others have said before, neither of them did particularly well at first and, later, the X-Men came back with new characters and a new creative team.

Beyond that, though, I think X-Men did better because the concept boils down to something easier: you're born different and people hate you for it. That's universal. Even with different powers/abilities, all of the members boil down to that one concept. Doom Patrol, on the other hand, you've got a successful race car driver who gets into a crash and becomes a robot. You have a successful Air Force pilot who has an accident and now can release his life essence as a black electric being. You have a supermodel/actress who breathes in fumes and can now grow and shrink. And you have a guy in a wheelchair who's really smart and brings them together because...they're weird?

Don't get me wrong...ultimately I like Doom Patrol better than X-Men...but the X-concept is such an easier sell than Doom Patrol. Being odd from birth is a much more relateable than being odd after you're famous and successful but then have a freak accident.

[Retrodork]

Yeah, I can just picture how long Wolverine would last hanging out on a sentient, transvestite street, where guys with names like Flex Mentallo lived. He'd taunt Cliff Steele over the fact that he couldn't drink beer anymore and then try to seduce Rita. I don't think you can really compare the two series overall. Maybe the original concepts were very similar, but the Doom Patrol took off on such a different tangent that I really don't see DP and the X-Men really having anything in common anymore. To me, it looks like apples and oranges.

[AdamYJ]

As others have said before, neither of them did particularly well at first and, later, the X-Men came back with new characters and a new creative team.

Beyond that, though, I think X-Men did better because the concept boils down to something easier: you're born different and people hate you for it. That's universal. Even with different powers/abilities, all of the members boil down to that one concept. Doom Patrol, on the other hand, you've got a successful race car driver who gets into a crash and becomes a robot. You have a successful Air Force pilot who has an accident and now can release his life essence as a black electric being. You have a supermodel/actress who breathes in fumes and can now grow and shrink. And you have a guy in a wheelchair who's really smart and brings them together because...they're weird?

Don't get me wrong...ultimately I like Doom Patrol better than X-Men...but the X-concept is such an easier sell than Doom Patrol. Being odd from birth is a much more relateable than being odd after you're famous and successful but then have a freak accident.

True. The X-Men manage to have some very solid core themes. They can easily reflect both the problems of racism and discrimination as well as the alienation that is felt during adolescence.

The Doom Patrol . . . . well, I see them mainly as being a twist on an old superhero trope, really. Basically, it has been established since the Golden Age that super-heroes would frequently gain their powers through some form of scientific accident. Barry Allen's is probably the most famous. However, unlike people who manage to get doused with electrified chemicals and then just go on their way, the Doom Patrol gained their powers through accidents yet are still physically or emotionally scarred by it. So, they're scientific accident victims that actually feel like, well, accident victims.

[mgs]

A perfect example of how out of the ordinary the Doom Patrol is when they canceled the book and killed the entire team alng with it.
is that what happened? for some reason, in my head, I have it that they were always destined for death at the end, and then a new team would be made, or something like that. or am I thinking of some other title? :confused:

sry, don't really know anything about the Doom Patrol.

[dancj]

Morrison's Doom Patrol was too inaccessible to most readers. It started out brilliantly, but eventually descended into unreadable madness. Exceptionally bizarre things happened, characters shouted out obscure concepts, and otherwise there was no plot, just a series of unrelated events.
It felt like that when I read it the first time around, but when I went back and read through the whole thing in one go I realised that it's actually very tightly and coherently plotted all the way through. I recommend you give it another try.

[dancj]

Things were pretty cool until Graham Nolan took over and the art went from lively and exciting to drab. And, don't get me wrong, I like Nolan's art, but, at that time, I didn't think it was that great.
I really liked the work Graham Nolan did on Batman, but his work on Doom Patrol was pretty awful.

I don't know if he was working to a tight deadline or just a bit to inexperienced at the time, but there's a gulf of difference between that art and the art he did for Batman

[FanboyStranger]

It felt like that when I read it the first time around, but when I went back and read through the whole thing in one go I realised that it's actually very tightly and coherently plotted all the way through. I recommend you give it another try.

Yeah, I have to admit that I found Morrison's run on dP to be exceptionally well-plotted-- especially compared to the run-away stuff in SS 1 and Final Crisis-- and the 'obscure' concepts tended to be explained within the pages of the comic itself or in the letter pages, which were fantastic and should have been reprinted in the Vertigo volumes. Sure, some of the villains spouted gibberish or spoke in anagrams, but those weird elements didn't obscure the plot in any way.

I also loved Arcudi and Tan Eng Huat Doom Patrol series. The best thing they did was not try to tell stories like Morrison, but not to ignore Morrison's (and Pollack's) stories as well. It was a fun book with exceptional artwork (when your fill-ins are Seth Fisher and Rick Geary, you're doing something right).

If you're looking for a well-done book with a Morrison dP feel, I'd recommend DC/Milestone's Xombi series written by John Rozum. I picked up the full run in a quarter bin before Christmas, and they are just great weird comics.

[midnightman2001]

Morrison's run on DP was interesting, BUT ITS NOT THE DOOM PATROL!!!!

WHY DOES MORRISON feel he must totally $#@!!! up a book? Why can't he stay true to what a character/book should be? I use to like what he did, but his recent batman is the worst ever. I don't even understand WTF is going on!!!!

His 7 soldiers of Victory was horrble! THATS NOT THE 7 SOLIDERS. HE SHOULD JUST BE CONFINED TO WRITE ELSEWORLD BOOKS.

I did enjoy his JLA from years ago. His All-Star Superman was one of the best Superman stories I have read.


Give us the "real" Doom Patrol.

[Shellhead]

Midnightman2001 = John Byrne

Grant did a great job with the Doom Patrol at first. He certainly got the concept better than most writers... the Doom Patrol isn't a generic superhero team, and sure it isn't a bunch of mutants living apart from the rest of humanity. The Doom Patrol is an alliance of heroic freaks, unified in their isolation from both normal humans and relatively normal-looking heroes. Doom Patrol members tend to be people who gained superhuman abilities as a side-effect of a devastating loss, of health, sanity, possibly more.

The original line-up had a common thread... every one of them was a competent expert at something, and every one of them became a freak. Cliff went from top race car driver to a human brain trapped in a robot. Rita was a famous actress shunned for her size-changing powers. Larry was a test pilot with the Right Stuff, until he ended up radioactive and looking like a burn victim turned mummy. And their foes were pretty strange, too, in form and motivation.

The Showcase incarnation of the Doom Patrol missed the mark. Cliff was still around, and Valentina was just like Larry except non-radioactive. But Arani and Joshua were basically just super-heroes, good-looking folks with super-powers and no impairments. They had adventures with standard heroes like Superman and Supergirl.

Morrison got back to the intrinsic nature of the Doom Patrol. He brought back Cliff, merged Valentina and Larry into some strange hybrid lifeform, and introduced new freaks into the mix. Crazy Jane had multiple personalities, with her various super-powers tied to specific personalities. Dorothy Spinner had the face of an ape and reality-warping imaginary friends. Stranger still was Danny the Street, a sentient chunk of urban real estate. Their adventures were exceptionally weird, even by Doom Patrol standards, but appropriate to the general freakish atmosphere of the Doom Patrol.

I skipped the next few versions of the Doom Patrol, though I did unfortunately encounter Byrne's completely unnecessary re-boot. Geoff Johns probably doesn't have a weird enough imagination to properly write the Doom Patrol, but he did an okay job of conveying how creepy they seem during a guest-shot in Teen Titans.

[PastePotPete]

I actually liked the John Arcudi DP because it was pretty original and had promise.
However, I don't like the DP as written by Geoff Johns. I don't think the Chief was ever such a jerk in the original series and I really don't like how Rita acts.
I DID like the Kupperberg/Lightle series and even enjoyed the Erik Larsen issues (Yikes!). Things were pretty cool until Graham Nolan took over and the art went from lively and exciting to drab. And, don't get me wrong, I like Nolan's art, but, at that time, I didn't think it was that great.


I quite liked the Arcudi run as well.

But I gotta disagree with you on Johns. I liked his horribly dysfunctional Doom Patrol in Teen Titans. The Chief as the center of a horrible co-dependent family, using their handicaps and their debt to him as a way to control them and keep them needing him. I thought it was tragic and sad. In a good way.

And as a previous poster pointed out - the Doom Patrol is all about sadness and tragedy.

I'd like to see Johns do the book when he finishes Blackest Night and his (snore) Superman secret origin thing.

Negative Man rules.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

This thread has just turned me into a Doom Patrol fan.

I'm gonna start looking for some of these runs.

[carabas]

Morrison's run on DP was interesting, BUT ITS NOT THE DOOM PATROL!!!!Arnold Drake said that, ulike all the others that had worked on the book, Morrison really got what the Doom Patrol was about.

[Seraku]

X-Men has more potential for growth?

[Shellhead]

X-Men has more potential for growth?

Maybe, maybe not. Morrison was the first writer to really take the next bold step, moving mutants from a tiny minority group to a growing segment of the human race. But then Marvel undid most of his efforts with House of M and other subsequent events. The current take on the X-Men is that they are a team of mutant superheroes based in San Francisco, just because.

[Utility Belt]

This thread has just turned me into a Doom Patrol fan.
I'm gonna start looking for some of these runs.

Me too, this thread has piqued my interest.
As for the popularity of Doom Patrol vs X-Men, I think it boils down to the concept of "mutants". The X-Men could have as many characters as they wanted with any crazy power they could think of and the reason for those powers was simply "he/she was born that way". With the Doom Patrol, each one was different and had their abilities for different reasons, the writers just couldn't keep changing the lineup until they found a winning combination like the X-Men did when Wolverine came into the fold.

[Seraku]

The current take on the X-Men is that they are a team of mutant superheroes based in San Francisco, just because.as a citizen of San Francisco, I'm ok with this

:biggrin:

[celticguy]

as a citizen of San Francisco, I'm ok with this

:biggrin:


ok but when Magneto rips apart the Bay Bridge dont complain here.

[americocaine]

I thought it was like a bizzaro X-Men. A comedic opposite if you will. It should definitely go into new hands and be relaunched. DC could use some more team books in the monthly titles roster.

[pariah-1972]

Me too, this thread has piqued my interest.
As for the popularity of Doom Patrol vs X-Men, I think it boils down to the concept of "mutants". The X-Men could have as many characters as they wanted with any crazy power they could think of and the reason for those powers was simply "he/she was born that way". With the Doom Patrol, each one was different and had their abilities for different reasons, the writers just couldn't keep changing the lineup until they found a winning combination like the X-Men did when Wolverine came into the fold.I just bought over X-mas Grant Morrison Doom Patrol and it is probably one of the best things he's done and i am not even a fan of his.

The one i got was called Musclebound by the way.

[midnightman2001]

ugh! Morrison's Doom Patrol is NOT the Doom Patrol.

GIVE US THE "REAL" Doom Patrol!

[Michael P]

There is no real Doom Patrol.

[midnightman2001]

Thats like saying there is no Batman or Spider-man. YES THERE IS!

Bruce Wayne is Batman. He SHOULD be doing Batman type activities. No one else can be Batman or it is not Batman. If you want crap like that, create a new character, which will ultimately FAIL! (because people want a "proper" Batman!)

Peter Parker is Spider-man. He should be doing Spider-man type activities, like he is NOW! No else can be Spider-man.

The Doom Patrol was fine in their original form. Not that weird #@! crap put out by a writer that has NO respect for what came before him & who ONLY wants to leave his mark just like some sleazy hollywood director.

[midnightman2001]

This 1977 Doom Patrol revival was just fine.

http://img226.imagevenue.com/loc215/th_99406_Showcase94_122_215lo.JPG (http://img226.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=99406_Showcase94_122_215lo.JPG)

as was this one

http://img250.imagevenue.com/loc190/th_99615_Doompatrol1_122_190lo.JPG (http://img250.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=99615_Doompatrol1_122_190lo.JPG)


SO THERE YOU HAVE IT, NOT 1 BUT 2 EXAMPLES OF THE "REAL" DOOM PATROL!

[carabas]

ugh! Morrison's Doom Patrol is NOT the Doom Patrol.Doom Patrol creator Arnold Drake disagrees with you.
And the Byrne Patrol was probably the version least like what the Doom Patrol is supposed to be like. Byrne tried to turn them into a generic superhero team.

[Michael P]

Thats like saying there is no Batman or Spider-man. [B][I][SIZE="3"][COLOR="Purple"]YES THERE IS!

No, there isn't. They're figments of the collective imagination. Four-color ephemera. Dreams dressed in little black boxes and squished between white gutters. I love them as much as the next nerd, but they're fiction. And fiction is free to change at a whim. And good for it. Imagination should go where it wants to, not stay where it was last week. It's us temporal meatsacks who have to live in stasis.

[Shellhead]

Doom Patrol creator Arnold Drake disagrees with you.
And the Byrne Patrol was probably the version least like what the Doom Patrol is supposed to be like. Byrne tried to turn them into a generic superhero team.

Byrne did worse than that. He retconned every single Doom Patrol story out of existence so that he could shamelessly rip off the original concept and add in a few lame newcomers, like that Kitty Pryde wannabe. His Doom Patrol by definition was the antithesis of the real Doom Patrol.

[midnightman2001]

You see, this is why DC cant sell $#@!. They do not know how to do their characters properly!

They should just sell them all to Marvel & be done with it.

I mean, Moon Knight is 1000000% times better than Batman right now....er..... oh thats right, that hack Morrison is dealing out that slop he calls writing on Batman. Ok, it makes sense that Batman sucks.

[Arkaengel]

ugh! Morrison's Doom Patrol is NOT the Doom Patrol.

GIVE US THE "REAL" Doom Patrol!
Creative use of fonts does not add credibility to your thesis, you do realise.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

ugh! Morrison's Doom Patrol is NOT the Doom Patrol.

GIVE US THE "REAL" Doom Patrol!

I'm sorry this is the REAL Doom Patrol to me.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee64/tomvern23/doom_patrol_033___00.jpg

This 1977 Doom Patrol revival was just fine.....


as was this one

http://img250.imagevenue.com/loc190/th_99615_Doompatrol1_122_190lo.JPG (http://img250.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=99615_Doompatrol1_122_190lo.JPG)


SO THERE YOU HAVE IT, NOT 1 BUT 2 EXAMPLES OF THE "REAL" DOOM PATROL!

John Byrne's Doom Patrol was piss poor and sad. It was pathetic. It made me wanna cry on how bad it was and its no shock DC admitted it was a crap fest.

You see, this is why DC cant sell $#@!. They do not know how to do their characters properly!

They should just sell them all to Marvel & be done with it.

I mean, Moon Knight is 1000000% times better than Batman right now....er..... oh thats right, that hack Morrison is dealing out that slop he calls writing on Batman. Ok, it makes sense that Batman sucks.


I gave Moon Knight 3 issues lately....it bored me. I'm no big Morrison fan of his Batman. But his Batman was better than Moon Knight.

[dancj]

Creative use of fonts does not add credibility to your thesis, you do realise.
Actually I think using big colourful writing does actually make your argument true. Capital letters work too.

Seriously midnightman2001 you've just shown a complete misunderstanding of who The Doom Patrol are.

[Sandy Hausler]

Thats like saying there is no Batman or Spider-man. YES THERE IS!

Bruce Wayne is Batman. He SHOULD be doing Batman type activities. No one else can be Batman or it is not Batman. If you want crap like that, create a new character, which will ultimately FAIL! (because people want a "proper" Batman!)

Peter Parker is Spider-man. He should be doing Spider-man type activities, like he is NOW! No else can be Spider-man.

The Doom Patrol was fine in their original form. Not that weird #@! crap put out by a writer that has NO respect for what came before him & who ONLY wants to leave his mark just like some sleazy hollywood director.

Uh, the real Doom Patrol should be dead. They blew themselves up. I guess you could have Mento and Beast Boy. And, I guess Robotman could still be around -- he certainly was revivied for the first, awful attempt to revive the Doom Patrol. It was the Vertigo version that brought back the Chief and, Negative Man (sort of).

But I would say the "real" Doom Patrol died, saving the lives of others. True heroes. Marv Wolfman did a great issue of Teen Titans in which the Titans fight Zahl and the Brain, who were responsible for the death of the DP. I still get tears thinking about the last page of that story.

BTW, I assume you don't consider the Byrne reboot to be the "real" Doom Patrol. I assume the fists of Superboy Prime has retconned that into oblivion (though I'm not sure it would have bothered me at all if it had been a new group, rather than a reboot).


Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

This 1977 Doom Patrol revival was just fine.

http://img226.imagevenue.com/loc215/th_99406_Showcase94_122_215lo.JPG (http://img226.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=99406_Showcase94_122_215lo.JPG)

as was this one

http://img250.imagevenue.com/loc190/th_99615_Doompatrol1_122_190lo.JPG (http://img250.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=99615_Doompatrol1_122_190lo.JPG)


SO THERE YOU HAVE IT, NOT 1 BUT 2 EXAMPLES OF THE "REAL" DOOM PATROL!

You've got to be kidding?

I thought Morrison went a little too far with the Vertigo DP, but give me his version over either of those any day.

The Vertigo version at least respects the original vision while updating it. It just went a little (OK, more than a little) bizarro as time went on.

Sandy Hausler

[midnightman2001]

Morrison's version was horrible. I did not like it.

REAL DOOM PATROL PLEASE! AND Morrsion's Doom Patrol came after the REAL ones, so how can you say its real?

And what about the 1977 Doom Patrol? Classic stuff there!

[celticguy]

Thats like saying there is no Batman or Spider-man. YES THERE IS!

Bruce Wayne is Batman. He SHOULD be doing Batman type activities. No one else can be Batman or it is not Batman. If you want crap like that, create a new character, which will ultimately FAIL! (because people want a "proper" Batman!)

Peter Parker is Spider-man. He should be doing Spider-man type activities, like he is NOW! No else can be Spider-man.

The Doom Patrol was fine in their original form. Not that weird #@! crap put out by a writer that has NO respect for what came before him & who ONLY wants to leave his mark just like some sleazy hollywood director.


but no teams stays with the same lineup for ever. Even the FF have had a few subs over the years. Sameness equals death and not the kind you come back from.

[jackdaw53]

I was knee high to a grass-hopper at the time... but I was an avid comic reader , and read both comics when they first came out.

My subjective impression then was that Doom Patrol was substantially better. Both comics were good to read... but X-Men just felt like a "typical super hero comic" light and fun... strangely enough Doom Patrol felt like a report of actual events that were happening somewhere else.

[Arkaengel]

Morrison's version was horrible. I did not like it.
That's your prerogative.
AND Morrsion's Doom Patrol came after the REAL ones, so how can you say its real?
I have stripped your misplaced creativity from your quote, because I see no reason to inflict that shit on this forum twice. That said...the Nine Inch Nails version of "Hurt" predates Johnny Cash's by over ten years, if I remember correctly. But in the opinion of many people, including a number of musicians and music critics, Cash's version is the definitive iteration of the song. Same thing applies to Hendrix' cover of "All Along The Watchtower"; Dylan wrote it and performed it first, then Hendrix did the definitive version.

Similarly, many if not most comic fans consider Grant Morrison's version of the Doom Patrol to be the definite take on the subject. You may disagree, but stamping your feet and having a technicolour freak-out won't win your side any supporters - at least, no supporters worth taking even remotely seriously.

TL;dr version: different people like different stuff. Accept it and quit having a tantrum.

[Jolly Mon]

Morrison's version was horrible. I did not like it.

REAL DOOM PATROL PLEASE! AND Morrsion's Doom Patrol came after the ones, so how can you say its real?

And what about the 1977 Doom Patrol? Classic stuff there!

Morrison's version is one that I've never read, because what I've heard of it was just a little too bizarre for my tastes (sentient transvestite street? I'm not even sure how that would work...). So I don't bash it or read it, I just avoid it.

However, I did read the 1977 version when it first came out. The only connection it had to the original was Robotman's return, which I thought was handled fairly well. Other than that, it was a fairly generic super-hero title.

And Byrne's was just awful. He crapped on the originals just for his bland drivel. :evilangry:
TL;dr version: different people like different stuff. Accept it and quit having a tantrum.

That's just good advice, and applies to much more than just comics.

[carabas]

Morrison's version is one that I've never read, because what I've heard of it was just a little too bizarre for my tastes.When put into terms of structure and storytelling, Doom Patrol is probably one of his most linear, straightforward works.

[celticguy]

That's your prerogative.

I have stripped your misplaced creativity from your quote, because I see no reason to inflict that shit on this forum twice. That said...the Nine Inch Nails version of "Hurt" predates Johnny Cash's by over ten years, if I remember correctly. But in the opinion of many people, including a number of musicians and music critics, Cash's version is the definitive iteration of the song. Same thing applies to Hendrix' cover of "All Along The Watchtower"; Dylan wrote it and performed it first, then Hendrix did the definitive version.

Similarly, many if not most comic fans consider Grant Morrison's version of the Doom Patrol to be the definite take on the subject. You may disagree, but stamping your feet and having a technicolour freak-out won't win your side any supporters - at least, no supporters worth taking even remotely seriously.

TL;dr version: different people like different stuff. Accept it and quit having a tantrum.


Is there ever a definiative version of any comic they are always so fluid.

[Seraku]

midnightman2001 knows more about what the doom patrol is than the people who created them


lol

[Ontir]

Morrison's version is one that I've never read, because what I've heard of it was just a little too bizarre for my tastes (sentient transvestite street? I'm not even sure how that would work...). So I don't bash it or read it, I just avoid it.

Morrison's version was fantastic! "The Painting that Ate Paris," the Brotherhood of Dada, the tranny street was cool, Crazy Jane/Sane Jane, two alien armies fighting over a twig/thorn from the Tree of Life, stuck in a shard of glass, Chief's "Think Tank*," and Flex Mentallo.

*Why DC doesn't do more with that I'll never know!

[Shellhead]

midnightman2001 knows more about what the doom patrol is than the people who created them


lol

midnightman2001 = John Byrne

Who else could believe such nonsense?

[Ontir]

I imagine because the DP didn't have Lee and Kirby which i'm sure helped it a lot, not to mention they were constantly running into the main marvel universe in just about every issue.

From what i've seen Doom Patrol has mostly been left to be in it's own little world even if they do reside in the general DC universe most times.

The thing is, X-Men wasn't really a hit until Wein & Cockrum revamped the book, and no one was certain it would stay that way, until (As Byrne said...) Paul Smith took over. What people forget is that 67 - 93 were re-prints of a bi-monthly comic. It's brief rise in popularity, if it existed at all, was the Thomas/Adams run. I bet if you ran actual numbers of the early X-Men against the early Doom Patrol, you'd find that DP out-sold it.

[NeoStar9X]

So why did DC allow the series to disappear or not push it then if it was doing so much better? Was it just not something they want their DC name brand to be associated with?

[Shellhead]

So why did DC allow the series to disappear or not push it then if it was doing so much better? Was it just not something they want their DC name brand to be associated with?

DC got acquired by Warner Brothers in 1969, after a couple years of losing sales to those upstarts at Marvel Comics. So as early as '67, they started experimenting with their product line quite a bit, canceling some titles and starting new ones, then canceling the new ones.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Morrison's version was horrible. I did not like it.

REAL DOOM PATROL PLEASE! AND Morrsion's Doom Patrol came after the REAL ones, so how can you say its real?

And what about the 1977 Doom Patrol? Classic stuff there!

It is.... Morrison rocked it like no other on Doom Patrol. His stories took you on a trip man. He made the DP fight villains out of this world and freaky as them.

When put into terms of structure and storytelling, Doom Patrol is probably one of his most linear, straightforward works.

Hell yeah I suggest the Morrison , Doom Patrol for anyone. Its that damn good. "Crawling from the Wreckage" was a great kick start for the team and starts shifting the DP from the cartoony Paul Kupperberg DP that tried to be a generic team to what Morrison would create.

I loved the "Brotherhood of Dada" .

[dancj]

Morrison's version was horrible. I did not like it.

REAL DOOM PATROL PLEASE! AND Morrsion's Doom Patrol came after the REAL ones, so how can you say its real?

And what about the 1977 Doom Patrol? Classic stuff there!
Damn, the intellectual weight of your argument is so forceful that I think we should all just give up and go home:rolleyes:

[Arkaengel]

Is there ever a definiative version of any comic they are always so fluid.
Comics, I'd say, aren't all that fluid at all; most superhero comics I'm aware of have a given status quo for their protagonists that the narrative keeps returning to.

And I'd say there are definitive interpretations of some characters. Frank Miller's take on Daredevil, for example, seems to be considered sufficiently definitive that both Bendis and Brubaker have returned to that take. Similarly, the Batman of Miller's DKR seems to have become the definitive take that most other writers base their portrayal on. More examples can no doubt be found by someone who's read more comics than I have.

[celticguy]

Comics, I'd say, aren't all that fluid at all; most superhero comics I'm aware of have a given status quo for their protagonists that the narrative keeps returning to.

And I'd say there are definitive interpretations of some characters. Frank Miller's take on Daredevil, for example, seems to be considered sufficiently definitive that both Bendis and Brubaker have returned to that take. Similarly, the Batman of Miller's DKR seems to have become the definitive take that most other writers base their portrayal on. More examples can no doubt be found by someone who's read more comics than I have.

Would that be the Daredevil in Bklack and yellow or the one in red.
The married Matt or the single
The one where his idenity is public or a secret
The one where Bullseye killed electra or the one where she is alive

That batman with ace the Batdog or without
The batman who is married to Kathy Kane or with out
the batman where Gordon is retired or when he is a cop
the bstman where Dick is Robin or the one where Jason is or the one where tim is or the one where stephanie is?
the Batman where Barbara is Batgirl or Cassie
The batman where Bruce is batman or the one with Jean Paul or Dick in the cowl

Every good writer tries to make a mark on a character adding or subtracting some piece of the world the character lives in.

The base line of good guy vs badguys usually does not change but the settings and suopporting casts often do.

And teams are even more fluid with changing lineups and locations moves etc.

[Jolly Mon]

Morrison's version was fantastic! "The Painting that Ate Paris," the Brotherhood of Dada, the tranny street was cool, Crazy Jane/Sane Jane, two alien armies fighting over a twig/thorn from the Tree of Life, stuck in a shard of glass, Chief's "Think Tank*," and Flex Mentallo.

*Why DC doesn't do more with that I'll never know!

Why is it that if someone expresses an opinion that differs from the popular one, people take it as an invitation to try to convert the non-conformist? I haven't said anything bad about his version of it, other than it sounded more bizarre than I was interested in.

You find it fantastic. Great, enjoy. I say I'm not interested, so evangelizing isn't going to change that. My main point was to midnightman2001 anyway, that the revamps he thought were great, really weren't.

[Arkaengel]

It would seem I've managed to randomly pick two examples that shoot the legs off the point I was trying to make.

[IvCNuB4]

I wonder if it's possible to dig up sales figures from the 60s. I thought the Silver-Age "Doom Patrol" was one of DC's biggest sellers ? .....

[BBeeryan]

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;8287176']From being almost canceled to being one of most popular multi-media franchises both in and outside North America, the X-Men have come a long way. Since the X-men were Marvel's version of the Doom Patrol (and vice versa), how come the DP never saw the success the X-franchise did?

It never took off because Ororo Iqadi T'Challa would've wiped the floor with this entire team.:evilsmile: