The Final Crisis Dialogues

[TimothyCallahan]

I'll be spending next week's "When Words Collide" column analyzing "Final Crisis" as a whole (and if you read this week's column, you know I've been gearing up for the finale), but CBR reviewer Chad Nevett and I have actually been discussing every single issue of "Final Crisis" since the very beginning.

The problem is that the site that used to host these discussions is now inactive.

So Chad and I have set up "The Final Crisis Dialogues" to host our debates/chit-chats/conversations on each issue of the series. It's pretty interesting to see what we thought about the issues as they were originally released (and see Chad mention a mere "one-week delay" -- ha! How innocent we were!).

Issue-by-issue links:

Final Crisis #1 (http://crisiscommentary.blogspot.com/2009/01/final-crisis-1.html)
Final Crisis #2 (http://crisiscommentary.blogspot.com/2008/06/final-crisis-2.html)
Final Crisis #3 (http://crisiscommentary.blogspot.com/2008/08/chad-nevett-week-late-but-final-crisis.html)
Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1 (http://crisiscommentary.blogspot.com/2008/08/final-crisis-superman-beyond-1.html)
Final Crisis #4 (Plus FC: Submit #1) (http://crisiscommentary.blogspot.com/2008/10/final-crisis-4-plus-final-crisis-submit.html)
Final Crisis #5 (http://crisiscommentary.blogspot.com/2008/12/tim-callahan-two-of-our-colleagues-over.html)
Final Crisis #6 (http://crisiscommentary.blogspot.com/2009/01/chad-nevett-and-we-return-with-our.html)

Enjoy!

[rev sully]

Tim,

Please edit the link to Final Crisis #3. I found it by cutting the incorrect portion out of the URL. Thanks! I'll chime in after I read 'em all! ^_~

[TimothyCallahan]

Link fixed. Thanks.

[fb1990]

Hey,
How come you guys didn't discuss and compare the end of SECRET INVASION when you guys talked about FINAL CRISIS #5 like you did with the rest of the series?

[rev sully]

I suppose since the Events were being released congruently, it would therefore lead to juxtaposition. To illustrate how "Night & Day" the Two Houses Are. Notice the kabosh on the comparison since SI finished what feels like ages ago. These dialogues seem written around the release, making the comparison a hot topic. Now...it's nice we can focus on the FINAL CRISIS. IMHO, I scanned the SI parts in the FC Dialogue. I recognize their impotance but I didn't tune into SI. They could have been comparing to the latest WildStorm "crisis event" or "Ultimatium" and I would have scanned over again seeing I'm not tuned into either (seeing MARVEL would be foolish to fool with ULT Spidey but iDigress...)

But to Tim or perhaps Chad if he's reading I have a question about the Superman Beyond 3-D #1 Dialogue.
Chad said, "There are references to his Animal Man run... and there's the story of the Ur-Monitor and the Ur-Superman that hints at the concept of Hypertime and the problem of continuity..."
Can you clear up "Ur-Superman"? As the original Myth story of "Ur" and the Gilgamesh? Or is there something more obvious I'm missing.
I got the "Nu-Morrison" part...a play on "new" and genre such as "nu-rock".

I look forward to Superman Beyond 3-D #2's dialogue (which I frakkin' LOVED!!!) The Tombstone? In one word: Ironic! Manhke's art? Spectacular! 3-D...blew me away!!! I got a couple of high-minded ideas about the Superman/Ultraman balance/resolution but I'll wait for you two first...

And I look forward to this week's completion to FINAL CRISIS #7 and all the things we can muse & argue over in the weeks to come.

Tim, Chad? Like me...do you have an "edit" of FINAL CRISIS in your longbox? Things you left out (such as I didn't get REVELATIONS, LAST WILL, RANN/THAN HOLY WAR), things you felt horribly taken advantage over (such as how I feel about COUNTDOWN to FC, REQUIEM, SUBMIT/RESIST, SECRET FILES). Ancillary things that were stunning (such as L3W, Superman Beyond 3-D, DC#0).

And do we have any favorite moments yet?
I got a few such as, "Gotcha" by Batman. And that one-panel interaction between the Hawks. I've heard so much grief about this panel but what Carter says to Kendra really tore up my heart a little. That's love, and that's reincarnation. I loved it. The Super Young Team's individual admission of feelings before the great war in that series of panels at the bottom of the page was priceless. Ahh! Great stuff!
In FC#3, when Jay Garrick is explaining to Iris that her husband was alive, JG Jones made the Golden Age Flash look just like Robert Mitchum...perfect!
http://theannotatedfinalcrisis.googlepages.com/FC03BarrysAlive.jpg/FC03BarrysAlive-full.jpg

A collection of human moments.
I was lucky 'nuff to find this one as well. The reaction to Article X, the Superhero Draft. "You Got Snail Mail"...then the juxtaposition to using email and the IntrePoop as a delivery system for the ALE...but this interaction between Ollie & Dinah defines their relationship...again perfect.
http://theannotatedfinalcrisis.googlepages.com/FC03YouGotSnailMail.jpg/FC03YouGotSnailMail-full.jpg

I got more but lemme hear you sound off...I've been waiting all Crisis long for this thread...^_~

'namaste,
Rev. Sully
http://www.thechannelocho.blogspot.com/

Eric O'Sullivan
Boston, MA USA

[TimothyCallahan]

"Ur" meaning "first example of, upon which all others are based"

All the other Supermen are iterations of the Siegel/Shuster original.

The "Superman Beyond" #2 Dialogue is posted on our blogs right now, and it will move over to the "official" FC Dialogues blog after its rested on our blogs for a few days.

I'm guessing that Chad has a much more selective "edit" of Final Crisis than I do, since I buy everything. But, yeah, I certainly don't consider "Countdown" to be part of it -- and I openly reject the Meltzer-horrific "Last Will and Testament" comic. I don't particularly like "Revelations" but it doesn't offend me with its ineptitude like those others do.

And "L3W" is awesome indeed.

More to come in this weeks "When Words Collide," but this is YOUR chance to sound off.

[TimothyCallahan]

Oh, and we did discuss the finale of Secret Invasion in a different Splash Page conversation--I can repost it if anyone's interested.

[rev sully]

"Ur" meaning "first example of, upon which all others are based"
All the other Supermen are iterations of the Siegel/Shuster original.

Ahhh...my favorite example of the Ur-Superman...can it be the Max Fleisher cartoons 1941-1942? Or does it have to be literally pertaining to Action Comics #1 in 1938? (and NOT Earth-Two Superman?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_(1940s_cartoons)
for the kids in the Cheap Seats. ^_~


I'm guessing that Chad has a much more selective "edit" of Final Crisis than I do, since I buy everything. But, yeah, I certainly don't consider "Countdown" to be part of it -- and I openly reject the Meltzer-horrific "Last Will and Testament" comic. I don't particularly like "Revelations" but it doesn't offend me with its ineptitude like those others do.

I thumbed through the LAST WILL on the shelf that Wednesday...and I'm a sucker for a tie-in. I got COUNTDOWN: ARENA and SEARCH FOR RAY PALMER. $132 in COUNTDOWN TO FC I got in magazines, dead weight and tinder I won't read again (plus $16 for ARENA and $18 for RAY PALMER...a grand total of $166 for a story I won't read again and hogs up longbox). They're not even good for a resource of reference in continuity even with the History of the Multiverse and the Villain's Secret Origins. The only ray of fanboy fun in COUNTDOWN TO FC was when Mr. Mxyzptlk is captive by Superboy-Prime in the Source Wall...and Mxyzptlk calls Prime "Clark Bent". Where I totally thought there was a reference to Prime getting charged up by Alex Luthor, Jr with Anti-Matter powers in the INFINITE CRISIS SECRET FILES...Alex Luthor got naked and gave Prime a power-up. Uhh...yeah. Look it up. I hear the South Park boys in chorus...
But I did not get into COUNTDOWN TO ADVENTURE. I feel slightly rewarded for not following the adventures of FORERUNNER!
Back in INFINITE CRISIS, there was a bevy of ancillary titles that contributed to the Overstory. Such as the kickoff $1 80-PAGE GIANT, the VILLAINS UNITED SPECIAL, the TEEN TITANS ANNUAL, SECRET FILES AND ORIGINS and the RANN/THANAGAR WAR SPECIAL. VU Spec. sets up the Battle for Metropolis...Rann/Than War Spec. added LOTS such as the death of Jade/decimation of the Space Squad (awesomely followed up in FIFTY-TWO!) and Prime/Alex Luthor's instigation of the CRISIS ...SF&Origins gives us Continuity Punches.
PS. RE: Continuity Punches, I always refer to this great article by Kelson Vibber's, the IntrePoop's DC's THE FLASH Guru...the Ultimate Place for Flash Fanatics!
http://www.hyperborea.org/journal/archives/2006/08/21/continuity-punches/
This article gave me credence to adopt a "I Know Who Time Trapper REALLY Is!" in FC: Legion of 3 Worlds! But iDigress...


More to come in this weeks "When Words Collide," but this is YOUR chance to sound off.

OK! It's your fault anyway I started Sounding Off here, Callahan. ^_~ I found "When Words Collide" about Morrison's BATMAN I then I got to check the rest out.
But I love this joie-de-vive for the CRISIS Stories we have here. I hope to see your collection of "favorite moments" in your articles then. Because that's what detractors accuse the most, eh? It's a collection of moments and plot points? There's so much good to it. Nonetheless there are sterling examples of good storytelling. Coming from SUPERMAN BEYOND 3-D I'm so looking forward to Manhke's art FC#7...those last pages of FC#6...the red skies, the wake in Superman's path...the veins standing out in his neck in that final full page. In the words of Will Ferrell, "Glorious!".

We got one issue left to see if there will be any continuity adjustments. Now with the Red Skies and Parallel Earths...

[fb1990]

Oh, and we did discuss the finale of Secret Invasion in a different Splash Page conversation--I can repost it if anyone's interested.

Don't worry, I'll find it.
:smile:

[Oblivion87]

These are cool, thanks for putting them up.

[Chad Nevett]

My "edit" of Final Crisis is just the comics written by Grant Morrison. The only thing I bought outside of that was Final Crisis: Secret Files, but it wasn't bad and contained some Morrison stuff... but it doesn't really add anything for me.

Also, regarding my Ur-Superman comment, that's a misreading on my part. The Superman weapon shown in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond 3D #1 appeared to me, then, as signifying that, but it's apparent upon rereading that it was actually inspired by contact with the worlds insinde MONITOR. It may represent the ultimate form of Superman, one that exists on a higher plane of reality, but isn't the Ur-Superman (which I mean as the original, the platonic ideal, the Superman idea from which all Supermen spring from).

[Chad Nevett]

Oh, and our discussion of Final Crisis #7 is up (http://crisiscommentary.blogspot.com/2009/02/final-crisis-7.html).

[TimothyCallahan]

Chad and I have finished our FINAL CRISIS discussion and posted the results to "The Final Crisis Dialogues" blog. Now you can read everything you've ever wanted to know (that we said) about the series. Or, at least, the Morrison issues.

Final Crisis Dialogues, now with issue #7 chit-chat: http://crisiscommentary.blogspot.com/

[Chad Nevett]

And... our coordination isn't always the best... heh.

[rev sully]

Dear Tim & Chad,

What are your favorite moments in FINAL CRISIS, such as the ones I got above.
I really enjoyed all the Super Young Team scenes. They were chock full of joie-de-vive. Capturing youth almost! Through you two ( Re: "Page 12 Aquaman", my new favorite moment from INFINITE CRISIS is this...
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/InfiniteCrayon05.jpg
"In Case You've Missed Every Since DC Comics"...priceless. This captures the whole she-bang. On the nose...

Also in FINAL CRISIS #7 the candids of four different DC heroes including Imam speaking Spanish. Yo hablo un poquito perro...but really "grokked" his dialog better through the annotations. "Superman's starting TIME again..." is how I read that panel now. Not literally...ever watch a French movie? Tu parles Charles...

Grant really laid down something good. I just sped-read The Invisibles "The Invisible Kingdom" and there is a lot alike 'tween the two. Batman wounding Turpin/Radion poisoning Darkseid to King Mob shooting the King of the Archons with a pop gun and an hallucinogen. The Monitors becoming one with the Monitor-Mind/overvoid to 2012 & the End of the Cosmos. If only that 4-D Pop Art scene in Final Crisis #7 with Luthor screaming "TIME SPACE SHREDDING!!!" was more like the 4-D Ragged Robin walking almost out of the
floor into Space/Time to save King Mob from the End of the World...Another Happy Ending!
iamcoolasbruceleeiamascoolsabruceleeiamcoolasbruce leeiamascoolsabrucelee

I also liked the allusion to Lois being stuffed into a refrigerator...hey I'm a GREEN LANTERN fan! I can't help it. Now I fear for Cowgirl but iDigress...:wink:

Being a huge fan of the DC CRISES, I did in the end find the rushed art and switching of artists to be a little tiresome. I'll have to go re-read the other House's CIVIL WAR #1-7 alone. The art never changed...Quesada thought that posterity in the collection was more important than too-tight schedule and Joe Q. even said that no one remembers that Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT RETURNS was plauged with delays. I think once read in a row Grant's very own ALL-STAR SUPERMAN will have that same quality. No one will remember the delay but both INFINITE CRISIS and FINAL CRISIS will not look at good as CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS in the collected edition.

Bedtime. More later. I look forward to hearing about Favorite Moments if y'all got any? I'm sure you do! This is great stuff!

Thanks!

'namaste...

[Chad Nevett]

A few favourite moments:

The end of issue four. Darkseid takes over Turpin. Thumbs down. "Give in." Plus, the title "Darkseid Says."
Issue five. Frankenstein leading the charge on a motorcycle in that lovely double-page spread.
Issue five. "17" and "The judge of all evil is here."
Issue six. "Gotcha."
The final four pages of issue seven.