I just discovered Grant Morrison's genius

[Winghead]

Doom Patrol and The Invisibles were so ahead of their time. I've always been a bit of a Morrison hater, but clearly he has something that separates him from most comic writers.

[Trey]

Absolutely, he has imagination! And uses it to tell stories out of the box.

I was going to start a thread how, he destroyed Batman and Superman for me. See, how can I read about them after Morrison? How can anyone top his stories?

Similar thing happened to me after I read Lord of the Rings, years ago. I've never read fantasy book (in LoR style) that I've enjoyed since than. Its more look everything else was drudgery.

[Winghead]

as far as LoTR I would say Harry Potter is definitely up there and at times superior, but I agree with you about Morrison with regards to Superman and Batman. He makes everything seem epic and keeps you guessing which is really cool. The only thing that sucks about his stuff is having to wait 30 days for the next issue. I know he has haters, as do all popular writers, but as much as I have tried to get in to writers that have been compared to him (Millar, Ellis, Ennis, Bendis), none have quite grabbed me the same way. I can't wait until he starts on Batman again. I'm sure what he has been planning will be massive.

[Captain Jim]

I just discovered Grant Morrison's genius


Good, I knew that he'd lost it. :wink:

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[rwe1138]

Now read his Animal Man run & WE3.

[yoda510]

My I suggest skipping RIP...But check out his '96 relauch of the JLA.

[HaroldAllnut]

Now read his Animal Man run & WE3.

Both Animal Man and We3 are truly superb.

[Karl O'Neill]

Morrison is the best writer ever!

[F1uke]

Both Animal Man and We3 are truly superb.

Agreed. His 26 issue run on Animal Man is definitely in my Top 10 Comic arcs..the first couple issues start off slow and seem disconnected, but the ending blew me away

[Tabernac]

I really enjoy Morrisons work for what I have read of it so far.

[Wind-Breaker]

Has Morrison written any comics with a more comedic feel?

[carabas]

Skrull Kill Krew, with Mark Millar (although I suspect it i more Millar than Morrioson), Sea Guy, Vimanarama (Islamic myth reimagined as Kirby space gods).
And there's bits of Doom Patrol, and most of his work, really, that are dead funny.

[Beast]

I just discovered Grant Morrison's genius
You should return that to him. He's been missing it for a very long time.

[Santanico]

Has Morrison written any comics with a more comedic feel?

Kill Your Boyfriend is very funny, in a dark sort of way (its tone was inspired by the plays of Joe Orton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Orton)).

[rwe1138]

Agreed. His 26 issue run on Animal Man is definitely in my Top 10 Comic arcs..the first couple issues start off slow and seem disconnected, but the ending blew me away

Well, the first four issues were intended to be a stand-alone mini-series, so while they're good, they're nowhere near as great as when Grant starts laying down the long-term plotlines in #5, IMHO.

[F1uke]

Well, the first four issues were intended to be a stand-alone mini-series, so while they're good, they're nowhere near as great as when Grant starts laying down the long-term plotlines in #5, IMHO.

Ahh, I never realized that, I always thought he just introduced different aspects of the story separately first, then brought them all together...Either way it's a great run. I love how it all comes together at the end.

[F1uke]

Sea Guy

Ahh, I almost forgot about Sea Guy. So hilarious/ridiculous. I'm excited for the sequel coming out April 1st.

[mofo]

Has Morrison written any comics with a more comedic feel?

Doom Patrol v2 #34
hilarious

[Bevbos]

SEVEN SOLDIERS OF VICTORY!!!

I think that will probably go down as his defining work. It's just so killer, the way all the plot points weave together in the end. And like Final Crisis, there's a lot of "meta" stuff going on it in, but UNlike Final Crisis, it all "digests" really well. There's a lot going on in there but not too much. Simply wonderful stuff. I wish he'd do something of that length and scope again.

[DonC]

Has Morrison written any comics with a more comedic feel?


Final Crisis was a joke. Does that count?

[carabas]

I think that will probably go down as his defining work..Surely "The Invisibles", "The Filth", "Animal Man" or even "Flex Mentallo" are far more defining than "7 soldiers of Victory"?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

My I suggest skipping RIP...But check out his '96 relauch of the JLA.

You could suggest it, but anyone with sense would ignore it.

Just read RIP on the weekend, and man, that kicked butt.

Totally elevated his entire Batman run, which had been a bit hit or miss for me - RIP brought it all together and made it fantastic.

You should return that to him. He's been missing it for a very long time.

Wow, not only is it a cheap shot, it's one someone had already made just above your post.

[Dave G.]

For me, Doom Patrol is his definitive work. It's up there with Ultimates 1 & 2 and Romita Jr.'s run on Daredevil as some of the best super-hero comics ever.

[Dave G.]

Invisibles too.

[Joe Franklin]

Doom Patrol and The Invisibles were so ahead of their time.

They were?:confused:

How so?

[Joe Franklin]

You should return that to him. He's been missing it for a very long time.

True.

Morrison should take a few comic book writing courses from Jeph Loeb.:cool:

[Gitaroo_Dude]

All-Star Superman is, I think, a character defining work.

Pair the best modern artist with a great writer and you get legendary results.

[Joe Franklin]

All-Star Superman is, I think, a character defining work.

Pair the best modern artist with a great writer and you get legendary results.

:eek:

Humberto Ramos and Jeph Loeb are doing an All-Star superman run? awesome.:cool:

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

:eek:

Humberto Ramos and Jeph Loeb are doing an All-Star superman run? awesome.:cool:

Is that a satirical thing?

Taking two people very much considered not to be 'great' or 'best modern' and putting them in the place?
Maybe as a poke at people who can't handle the difference between what they like, and what is actually considered to be the best?
Sort of a play on those whiny 'Why do you all shit on what I like by liking something else better? Objective and Subjective is BS'.

If so well done - you captured it well.

[Joe Franklin]

Is that a satirical thing?

Taking two people very much considered not to be 'great' or 'best modern' and putting them in the place?
Maybe as a poke at people who can't handle the difference between what they like, and what is actually considered to be the best?
Sort of a play on those whiny 'Why do you all shit on what I like by liking something else better? Objective and Subjective is BS'.

If so well done - you captured it well.

:confused:
Why so angry my friend? Your opinion is more valid then mine? I don't like what you like so I'm somehow satirical in nature? Can't we all just get along, etc?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

:confused:
Why so angry my friend? Your opinion is more valid then mine? I don't like what you like so I'm somehow satirical in nature? Can't we all just get along, etc?

I'll admit to being a little harsh there, which you don't deserve, but it did come from the fact that I actually laughed at your post thinking it was a joke... before realising it wasn't.

One of those one's where I just disagree so much with that statement, I lost sight of the true meaning of message boards - fans coming together and getting along to share their love of the medium.

Also of note: I haven't had my morning coffee and just can't seem to stop posting sarcastically.

[Joe Franklin]

I'm still waiting for the answer as to why Morrison's Doom Patrol and his Invisibles were ahead of their time any more then any other comic book series during that time was?:wink:

[thehod]

I still rate Zenith as some of the best work he's ever done.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I'm still waiting for the answer as to why Morrison's Doom Patrol and his Invisibles were ahead of their time any more then any other comic book series during that time was?:wink:

It's an odd comment, as they were both critical hits at the time, but y'know, Doom Patrol is still held up as a classic, where as other books from the time aren't.

[Sean Whitmore]

I'll admit to being a little harsh there, which you don't deserve, but it did come from the fact that I actually laughed at your post thinking it was a joke... before realising it wasn't.

For what it's worth, I thought he was kidding too. How could I not?


SEAN

[B. Kuwanger]

Batman was awesome, but I'm always scared I'm gonna pick something up that gets praised to Hell and not understand what he was going for at all. I bought the whole of both New X-Men and Seaguy and I never want to be that disappointed again. Whenever I try to test a comic (FC, Invisibles, Superman Beyond) it seems like either it was meant to be read backwards or I'm completely stupid and don't understand European people.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Batman was awesome, but I'm always scared I'm gonna pick something up that gets praised to Hell and not understand what he was going for at all. I bought the whole of both New X-Men and Seaguy and I never want to be that disappointed again. Whenever I try to test a comic (FC, Invisibles, Superman Beyond) it seems like either it was meant to be read backwards or I'm completely stupid and don't understand European people.

What was wrong with his New X-men?

I can get you not getting or not enjoying the others if you mainly read superhero comics, but New X-men is pretty straightforward action adventure in a sci-fi mold.

[Beast]

What was wrong with his New X-men?

I can get you not getting or not enjoying the others if you mainly read superhero comics, but New X-men is pretty straightforward action adventure in a sci-fi mold.
His New X-Men was terrible. Especially the second half.

[Reptisaurus!]

True.

Morrison should take a few comic book writing courses from Jeph Loeb.:cool:

Since the other way 'round already happened, eh?

Loeb's been pretty open with the fact that his current, not-with-Tim-Sale writing style is trying to emulate Morrison's JLA, emphasizing the "$%^& Yeah!" moment over... like.... plot. Or basic coherence. Luckily Loeb seems to have borrowed Morrison's cheerful, ironic distance from what he's writing as well, which makes it all go down pretty smooth.

(I'm a pretty big fan of both of 'em..)

Since (arguably) the most popula writer in comics right now - Well, sales wise - is actively bitin' Morrison's style, I think "ahead of his time" is an accurate description.

Worth pointing out, given the differing critical reaction to the two guy's work, that Loeb does have some strengths Morrison doesn't. Loeb's better at working to the strengths of his artists - (Although Morrison's improved 1000% between NEW X-MEN and SEVEN SOLDIERS) and better at giving his characters distinctive dialog.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

His New X-Men was terrible. Especially the second half.

Awesome.

Now, if you're going to quote me, the best bet would to start by answering 'Why' it was.
You didn't like it, fine.
But why?
Because going by your posting name, I get a strong feeling you feel that way because he dared to do something outside of Claremonts mold with X-men.

Worth pointing out, given the differing critical reaction to the two guy's work, that Loeb does have some strengths Morrison doesn't. Loeb's better at working to the strengths of his artists - (Although Morrison's improved 1000% between NEW X-MEN and SEVEN SOLDIERS) and better at giving his characters distinctive dialog.

Can you blame Morrison for not writing for the artist in New X-men, when the artists were getting switched by the second?
That said, I'd argue that problem was only in the book for the first years worth - he was definitely writing for the artist after that - Riot at Xaviers, Murder In The Mansion, Weapon XIII, Planet X and the future arc (forgotten title!) were all written to the strength's of their particular artists.
Seven Soldiers is like that way the whole way through because it had the artists, except one, stick to the books and the schedule.
Also, check out the last invisibles issue - heck, even JLA - Morrison writes to the artists strength much better than Jeph Loeb.
Jeph writes for what they've already shown they can do, Morrison pushes them further.

[the4thpip]

Has Morrison written any comics with a more comedic feel?

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/26391114176.1.GIF

[Reptisaurus!]

Also, check out the last invisibles issue - heck, even JLA - Morrison writes to the artists strength much better than Jeph Loeb.


No. You're absolutely wrong. Look at Delano's GHOSTDANCING side-to-side with DOOM PATROL. One (the one who wasn't Morrison) was obviously writing to Case's strengths, and the other was expecting his poor artist to tag along.

Or KID ETERNITY vs. Fegredo's stuff with Peter Milligan.

He's always been good with Quitely, but compare any of the other INVISIBLES artists against the stuff they did with Morrison. Jill Thompson did much better work SANDMAN. Buckingham did better work on HELLBLAZER.

Or, for absolute proof, read the latest printing of ARKHAM ASYLUM. Morrison absolutely knew what he wanted - But he completely failed to colaborate with McKean who ALSO knew what he wanted, and the whole thing is a huge mess, quite different from either of their visions.

And I wasn't seeing much on BATMAN that made use of whichever Kubert's facility with body language.

OK, I can't tell the lesser Kuberts apart, so I could be wrong on the last one.

Jeph writes for what they've already shown they can do, Morrison pushes them further.

Oh. News to me.

Please cite precedent for the ink-washed/watercolory stuff Jim Lee did on Loeb's HUSH. I've never seen that kind of total artistic reinvention from a major, established artist when they're working with Morrison. (Although I'm fairly unfamiliar with the Seven Soldiers crews work before they started there. And, for what it's worth, Bianchi did much better work on SHINING KNIGHT than WOLVERINE.)

[dancj]

Worth pointing out, given the differing critical reaction to the two guy's work, that Loeb does have some strengths Morrison doesn't. Loeb's better at working to the strengths of his artists
I'm not convinced it's not more a case of Loeb actually knowing who his artist is going to be more often

[DeadXMan]

could you give it back to him?

He needs it badly after FC.

[Reptisaurus!]

I'm not convinced it's not more a case of Loeb actually knowing who his artist is going to be more often

Yeah, I get the feeling a lot of Loeb's success here is due to his social skills as much as his creative skills. Still, whatever it is it's something that 98% of writers - Excepting, like, Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman - don't have.

[Arksy]

You guys should come back from the annual 2009 player haters ball and learn to just appreciate people's effort even if you didn't enjoy it.

I enjoy Morrison's and Loeb's work, although i must admit i like Morrison's a fair bit more and i think both writers have produced masterpeices and rubbish.

[rwe1138]

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/26391114176.1.GIF

I love that issue.

[dan bailey]

My god, what ghastly '90s crap art. Given the abilities of the people involved, I'm assuming it's deliberately terrible.

(Which probably doesn't make it any less awful ... though I hope I'm wrong.)

[carabas]

It is very deliberate.
The issue is a one-off, a hilarious spoof of the early nineties Liefeldesque, trying to be gritty and grim comics.

[dan bailey]

So I gathered. Still, I despise those comics so much that I'm not sure I could abide even a cleverly done dig at them.

[B. Kuwanger]

What was wrong with his New X-men?

I can get you not getting or not enjoying the others if you mainly read superhero comics, but New X-men is pretty straightforward action adventure in a sci-fi mold.

Well, to get them out of the way, I did like the riot and Weapon Plus stories. But it felt like a lot of the series was Morrison on auto pilot. I think if you asked Morrison what he had planned for his run, he'd mumble things like Shi'ar, students, sentinels, and evil twins. His plots were pretty dull (especially right before that Magneto nonsense) and the first dozen or so issues made "E is for Extinction" the only story to actually be ruined by trying way too hard in my opinion. And I can't think of any excuse for killing Jean and making Magneto a half baked junkie. I still can't believe that wasn't a Chuck Austen storyline.

I've seen so many people say how witty he was on that title, and how that's the only X-Men they accept. After a while I came to believe that people honestly force themselves to think that way, and I didn't wanna have to try to like a writer's work.

I'm currently still geared to try things like Doom Patrol and Flex Mentallo (by some miracle) because from what I've read those projects are all him. All-star and Animal Man also sound like they deserve a shot. And Doom Force simply wins.

[Paul McEnery]

My god, what ghastly '90s crap art. Given the abilities of the people involved, I'm assuming it's deliberately terrible.

(Which probably doesn't make it any less awful ... though I hope I'm wrong.)

Which part of this does not scream parody at you? Especially the Liefeld looking art from Giffen and Mignola.

OOPS: Coke to Carabas.

[B. Kuwanger]

It's certainly the greatest parody I have ever seen.

[dan bailey]

Which part of this does not scream parody at you? Especially the Liefeld looking art from Giffen and Mignola.

You're right, of course, which is why I said what I did about "given the abilities of the people involved." Still, the '90s in general were so hideous that for all I know, those guys were drawing that way ... though I seriously doubted it. (I mean, hell, Herb Trimpe was.)

I was lucky enough to spend '79-'04 or thereabouts on complete hiatus from comics. I'm still absolutely appalled whenever I see anything even remotely Liefeldesque from the '90s (or, for that matter, anything even remotely Liefeldesque from today), to the extent that I can only imagine that the fans of the time were the victims of a mass lobotomy.

[Ilash]

You're right, of course, which is why I said what I did about "given the abilities of the people involved." Still, the '90s in general were so hideous that for all I know, those guys were drawing that way ... though I seriously doubted it. (I mean, hell, Herb Trimpe was.)

I was lucky enough to spend '79-'04 or thereabouts on complete hiatus from comics. I'm still absolutely appalled whenever I see anything even remotely Liefeldesque from the '90s (or, for that matter, anything even remotely Liefeldesque from today), to the extent that I can only imagine that the fans of the time were the victims of a mass lobotomy.

Yeah but to be fair, there was loads of stuff out there in the 90s that had zilch to do with this horrible crap. PAD's DC stuff, Morrison's JLA, Waid's Flash, Starman, Chuck Dixon on the Batman books... not to mention the birth of Vertigo comics.

[dan bailey]

Yeah but to be fair, there was loads of stuff out there in the 90s that had zilch to do with this horrible crap. PAD's DC stuff, Morrison's JLA, Waid's Flash, Starman, Chuck Dixon on the Batman books... not to mention the birth of Vertigo comics.

No doubt. And that's the sort of stuff that I'm trying to go back & find. (As it happens, it was an early '90s DC series whose excellence played a large role in luring me back into the field when I came across the first half of the run about 4 1/2 years ago in the collectibles store I was working in at the time -- Hawkworld.)

But the really horrible, godawful crap ... oh god, it burns! It burns!

[Joe Franklin]

I can get you not getting or not enjoying the others if you mainly read superhero comics, but New X-men is pretty straightforward action adventure in a sci-fi mold.

I agree.

The reason I think Morrison's X-Men run was below average was because it was a whole lot more sci-fi then it was superhero. As you already know, my favorite kinds of comic books are the outrageous, spandex clad, goofy superhero kind. This is why I love Loeb's superhero stuff so much.

[Ilash]

No doubt. And that's the sort of stuff that I'm trying to go back & find. (As it happens, it was an early '90s DC series whose excellence played a large role in luring me back into the field when I came across the first half of the run about 4 1/2 years ago in the collectibles store I was working in at the time -- Hawkworld.)

But the really horrible, godawful crap ... oh god, it burns! It burns!

Heh. Yeah, can't argue with that.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Well, to get them out of the way, I did like the riot and Weapon Plus stories. But it felt like a lot of the series was Morrison on auto pilot. I think if you asked Morrison what he had planned for his run, he'd mumble things like Shi'ar, students, sentinels, and evil twins.


The thing is though, he spelled out what he wanted to do with the book in his X-Manifesto, which is at the end of the first hardcover, and possibly trade.
He stuck to his guns with it.

In my opinion it was the freshest take on X-men in a long while - until Milligans X-Force anyway!

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

No. You're absolutely wrong.

Ha!
You're on.
I'll mount a defence on his artistic collaborations for his early stuff, you get started on those early Cable issues Jeph Loeb did.
Or are we only looking at Morrisons early work for this comparison?
Because you're aware of that aren't you - the only one's you can point to are very early works in his career, where the argument could be that he was new to the game, but also, and more likely he had an artist chosen for a project after he wrote the scripts.
Do you think he wanted the artist he got on Animal Man?


Look at Delano's GHOSTDANCING side-to-side with DOOM PATROL. One (the one who wasn't Morrison) was obviously writing to Case's strengths, and the other was expecting his poor artist to tag along.

Or KID ETERNITY vs. Fegredo's stuff with Peter Milligan.
I'd say Case was assigned after Morrison had begun.
As with Fegredo, I like his Kid Eternity work quite a bit.
However, on one project he painted, and on the other he penciled.
You sure that can be put down to Morrison over Milligan, and not a change in tools?

He's always been good with Quitely, but compare any of the other INVISIBLES artists against the stuff they did with Morrison. Jill Thompson did much better work SANDMAN. Buckingham did better work on HELLBLAZER.

Compare any first series Invisibles artist and you get that.
Compare second series on - actually, second half of first series - from where he was definitely in control of it, and a 'name' due to JLA, and you'll see a vast improvement.
His work with Phil Jimenez, Weston and such is a perfect collaboration.
The Steve Yeowell issues aren't the greatest out there, and yet their collaboration on Sebastian O from around the same time is spot on.

Look at Sea Guy, We3, Vinamrama, Marvel Boy, FF:1234... the guy knows how to work with his artists, if you give him artists up to working with him.

Or, for absolute proof, read the latest printing of ARKHAM ASYLUM. Morrison absolutely knew what he wanted - But he completely failed to colaborate with McKean who ALSO knew what he wanted, and the whole thing is a huge mess, quite different from either of their visions.

Why the latest?
Because that has the script and so now you can see what's different, as opposed to the whole it was that everybody hailed as a masterpiece before?
Go read the script to 'Heart Of Darkness' the basis for Apocalypse Now.
B-I-G differences.
That's collaboration.


And I wasn't seeing much on BATMAN that made use of whichever Kubert's facility with body language.

Kubert was on one arc...
Check the J.H Williams arc, or even RIP, which made the most of Tony Daniels tough guy energy.


Oh. News to me.

Please cite precedent for the ink-washed/watercolory stuff Jim Lee did on Loeb's HUSH. I've never seen that kind of total artistic reinvention from a major, established artist when they're working with Morrison. (Although I'm fairly unfamiliar with the Seven Soldiers crews work before they started there. And, for what it's worth, Bianchi did much better work on SHINING KNIGHT than WOLVERINE.)

I'd sight Jim Lee's work on Deathblow - a book he was replaced on by... Tim Sale - and also his work from the first issue of Vertigo's Flinch, and a dab of the cover he did for vertigo's Fight For Tomorrow to show that this wasn't as ground breaking a change in style as you want to believe it is.
His first major work done that way, sure, but he'd shown that he was into that before.
Loeb's strength with artists is that he knows what mood to write for them so that their splash pages look pretty.
Morrison writes for the artist so that the panels on their pages work together to form a whole.
Loeb could never make Phillip Bond shine like morrison did with vinamarama or Quietly with We3.
Well, he could now that they've done it before, but he'd never be able to push them to producing it the first time around.

[Reptisaurus!]

Well, OK. I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong.

And in kind of a stupid way as well.

I should definitely know better.

Aside from Stewart and Irving, Grant Morrison had nothing to do with picking the artists on Seven Soldiers. Editor Peter Tomasi did the work or pairing creators with Morrison's series proposal in five of the seven cases.

So, really, when I said Morrison wrote to his artists on Seven Soldiers, I was wrong in five of the seven cases, and the credit shoud go to the editor instead.


http://goodcomics.blogspot.com/2006/02/talk-about-eye-for-talent.html

[dancj]

The Steve Yeowell issues aren't the greatest out there, and yet their collaboration on Sebastian O from around the same time is spot on.
I thought the Steve Yeowell art on The Invisibles was top notch, but I was disappointed with his work on Sebastian O

[Jolly Mon]

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/26391114176.1.GIF

Why does that woman in the lower left corner have sperm all over her costume? Was her secret ID Monica Lewinsky? I don't even want to think what her superpower was.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Well, OK. I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong.

And in kind of a stupid way as well.

I should definitely know better.

Aside from Stewart and Irving, Grant Morrison had nothing to do with picking the artists on Seven Soldiers. Editor Peter Tomasi did the work or pairing creators with Morrison's series proposal in five of the seven cases.

So, really, when I said Morrison wrote to his artists on Seven Soldiers, I was wrong in five of the seven cases, and the credit shoud go to the editor instead.


http://goodcomics.blogspot.com/2006/02/talk-about-eye-for-talent.html

You're linking to a page that has you linking to a page that no longer exists.

Luckily, someone quotes a segment of an interview - and in it you'll note that it mentions Morrison is still in the writing process - full script writing - as the artists are getting chosen.
In fact, from Tomasi's phrasing, it can easily be argued that at the point they were chosen, all Morrison had done was plan out the series, and was now at the point of writing the issues.
So from that we can assume that Morrison didn't collaborate with the artists on the overall arc of Seven Soldiers or on how all the mini's tie together... did we eer doubt that was the case?


So while I appreciate the both patronizing nature of your post, matched well with your first one, it still doesn't show your argument that Loeb is a better writer for his artists than Morrison.

Congrats for using examples from this decade though, this time around.

So, you going to argue any of the points I put forth, both my pro-Morrison one's or my one's showing that Loeb didn't actually push Lee to any new ground, or shall we leave it here?

[Reptisaurus!]

Y'know, I read through the Invisibles (what the Library had, I, II, IV and V) Sebastian O, Kill Your Boyfriend, Batman...

And I can't honestly imagine anyone with a sense for this stuff agreeing with you. I'm reading (lord help me) Infinite Crisis and it seems to play much more to Jiminez' inate strengths (design and layout) than anything from the Invisibles where we just get a buncha figure drawing. Doesn't look *bad*, but I can't see any thought given to what can this guy do?

Compare to the first and second volumes of Superman/Batman which has a LOT more interesting page and panel design elements. Possibly this is because Mike Turner circa 2003 is a much better design based artist than Morrison circa '98... or maybe, just maybe, one writer is a little more attuned to the strengths of his collaborators. Even J.H. Williams III (who's as good an artist as the Mainstream's GOT right now) can't quite keep up. He doesn't have the "stylistic-chameleon" chops to pull off what Morrison wanted him to do in Seven Soldiers # 1.

Honestly, I can't for a second see anyone with an eye for this stuff examining the evidence and agreeing with you. (Not that figuring out writer/artist symmetry is something that most comic fans can do, which is why Loeb gets so much shit.) Loeb's just better, and significantly better, at figuring out the strengths of his artists 95% of the time - Basically, in any situation not involving Frank Quietly.

Obviously Morrison's a better writer in a dozen different ways, and I'd cheerfully call Flex Mentallo, Seven Soldiers # 0 and the silent issue of New X-men as good as anythng anyone's done in superhero comics. While the best of Loeb's stuff, well, lifts it's plots from thirty year old comics that Stan or Jack or Johnny R. plotted in a day. When they're both at the top of their game, it's no comparison.

But...


You got a library handy? Easy access to, say, Superman/Batman, Hush, Hulk: Grey, and optimally Witchcraft. Because I really can't imagine that if you look back on Loeb's work with an eye to the visual/textual symmetry that you'll still be disagreeing with me.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Y'know, I read through the Invisibles (what the Library had, I, II, IV and V) Sebastian O, Kill Your Boyfriend, Batman...

And I can't honestly imagine anyone with a sense for this stuff agreeing with you. I'm reading (lord help me) Infinite Crisis and it seems to play much more to Jiminez' inate strengths (design and layout) than anything from the Invisibles where we just get a buncha figure drawing. Doesn't look *bad*, but I can't see any thought given to what can this guy do?

I'm not sure how you can't see it with The Invisibles, I really can't, but again I need to point out that most of those works are well over a decade old, and I note you aren't suggesting I read Loeb's Cable or his Challengers Of The Unknown...

Compare to the first and second volumes of Superman/Batman which has a LOT more interesting page and panel design elements. Possibly this is because Mike Turner circa 2003 is a much better design based artist than Morrison circa '98... or maybe, just maybe, one writer is a little more attuned to the strengths of his collaborators. Even J.H. Williams III (who's as good an artist as the Mainstream's GOT right now) can't quite keep up. He doesn't have the "stylistic-chameleon" chops to pull off what Morrison wanted him to do in Seven Soldiers # 1.

You don't think the JH Williams Seven Soldiers issues worked?
I'm not even sure how to argue that - they looked fantastic.
Beyond going 'critical opinion is on my side' I'm not sure what to say.
Check out their Club Of Heroes arc in Batman, beautiful stuff.

Honestly, I can't for a second see anyone with an eye for this stuff examining the evidence and agreeing with you. (Not that figuring out writer/artist symmetry is something that most comic fans can do, which is why Loeb gets so much shit.) Loeb's just better, and significantly better, at figuring out the strengths of his artists 95% of the time - Basically, in any situation not involving Frank Quietly.

Loeb gets shit for writing continuity porn - as for writing to strenghts, come on, what?
He figured out that people like it when Michael Turner drew young girls?
Or that Ed Mcguinness is good for fight issues? (Or anything without a background).

Obviously Morrison's a better writer in a dozen different ways, and I'd cheerfully call Flex Mentallo, Seven Soldiers # 0 and the silent issue of New X-men as good as anythng anyone's done in superhero comics. While the best of Loeb's stuff, well, lifts it's plots from thirty year old comics that Stan or Jack or Johnny R. plotted in a day. When they're both at the top of their game, it's no comparison.

But...


You got a library handy? Easy access to, say, Superman/Batman, Hush, Hulk: Grey, and optimally Witchcraft. Because I really can't imagine that if you look back on Loeb's work with an eye to the visual/textual symmetry that you'll still be disagreeing with me.

Yeah, I think you need the library - We3, Vinamarama, Sea Guy, All of Seven Soldiers - as I pointed out, that interview doesn't say what you need it to for your argument to hold - all are much better collaborations than anything Loeb has ever done.

[Uthred]

I imagine Invisibles is probably Morrison's definitive work. For me it also perfectly encapsulates his writing style, appeal and problems. It has fresh and excellent idea's and characters which hook the reader and draw them in, then towards the end it appears the idea's trail off and get obfuscated by whatever handy bit of kitsch pop psychology Morrison feel's like throwing in. The end of a lot of his storyline's feel very weak. They also have a tendency to cause otherwise rational people to attempt to justify how artsy and dead-alternate the ending is ;)

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I imagine Invisibles is probably Morrison's definitive work. For me it also perfectly encapsulates his writing style, appeal and problems. It has fresh and excellent idea's and characters which hook the reader and draw them in, then towards the end it appears the idea's trail off and get obfuscated by whatever handy bit of kitsch pop psychology Morrison feel's like throwing in. The end of a lot of his storyline's feel very weak. They also have a tendency to cause otherwise rational people to attempt to justify how artsy and dead-alternate the ending is ;)

I agree that The Invisibles tapers off towards the end - he stopped pumping it full of pop-culture/actiony goodness.
The Filth has similar ideas and remains a ripper throughout - it's like The Invisibles condensed into twelve issues.
Great art from Chris Weston as well.
(I'm sure it had nothing to do with Morrison though).

[Uthred]

I agree that The Invisibles tapers off towards the end - he stopped pumping it full of pop-culture/actiony goodness.
The Filth has similar ideas and remains a ripper throughout - it's like The Invisibles condensed into twelve issues.
Great art from Chris Weston as well.
(I'm sure it had nothing to do with Morrison though).

Yes I really enjoyed The Filth. I think its the wildly varying quality of Morrison's work (or at least the wild variance of how much I like it) that I find most aggravating about reading his work.

[dupersuper]

Animal Man blew me away, JLA may be my favourite ongoing series ever, All Star Superman had about 50 awesome moments, DC 1,000,000 more than made up for any shortcomings in the Final Crisis then yet to come, Doom Patrol and Sebastion0 made me laugh, he had Beast pretend to be gay, made Cyclops cool when on the Shi'ar ship, We3 was sweet, and I always kinda' wished I used drugs when I read Invisibles. I likey.