why do all superheroes have muscley pumped up bodies

[DC906270-BIL]

haha, just something thats been prevalent since the very first Post war comics, the question eh, why do they all have pumped up super muscley super fit bodies? i mean, fair enough characters like Batman, Daredevil and Spiderman have it explained in their origins. but, i mean scientists like Hank Pym and Reed Richards shouldnt have muscly bodies, they dont do any training for f**ks sake! But, i guess the prevaling reason is that graphically on the page, a super muscley fit body looks better than a flabby or even average physique.

[Guest_1001]

To be fair, I don't think Reed Richards is muscular. And, if he is, he can reshape his body so he is, rather than having to go to the gym.

But I agree with you. And to think that some fans complain about women all being attractive in comic books. Men aren't exactly better off.

[DeadXMan]

one word:

Butterball
:redface:

[Michael P]

It's physical idealism as visual shorthand for philosophical idealism.

[DeadLast Johnny]

*Because they're all written/drawn by over-under weight men who have to live vicariously thru their creations. And obviously, the way females are drawn, those are the type of women they wish they could pull, or at least get someone's throwaway trim.







*I know in reality, this isn't the case, so you writers/drawers out there, relax. :biggrin:

[mcgaffer]

Well we know Pym can grow and shrink and we know he can do this to other objects too. He's probably adjusted his particles to just give his muscles a boost.
There are some superheros with less muscle then most. Cyclops earned the nickname Slim because he basically was. The Human Torch has always looked skinny.

[DeadLast Johnny]

You mentioning Cyclops reminded me of Astonishing X-Men #1 (I think) with the group shot and I always thought Wolverine looked like a total fat-ass in that pic. Too much beer I assume.

[Sir Tim Drake]

http://www.michaelcornacchia.com/images/main_midpanelone.jpg

[stelok]

haha, just something thats been prevalent since the very first Post war comics, the question eh, why do they all have pumped up super muscley super fit bodies? i mean, fair enough characters like Batman, Daredevil and Spiderman have it explained in their origins. .

Spider-man never has a muscle body at all. The teenage Spidey was skinny. The adult Spidey has a slim average-guy body now.

Anyways, the characters' appearance depends on who is drawing those characters. Rob Liefeld draw even the sim Cannonball as a big muscled guy.

I guess the artists are so into drawing manly muscles.


There are some superheros with less muscle then most. Cyclops earned the nickname Slim because he basically was. The Human Torch has always looked skinny.

Actually Cyclops did have muscles. Joe Maduiera drew muscles on Cyclops.

[Grazzt]

Spider-man never has a muscle body at all. The teenage Spidey was skinny. The adult Spidey has a slim average-guy body now.


What? How many normal people have Spidey's level of definition? Okay, so he's not a muscle-man, but I think "Olympic Gymnast" or "Swimmer" is a better description for his physique than "average-guy".

[dupont2005]

i wouldnt consider this an average guys body
http://www.aeroggio.com/uploaded_images/am-spiderman-376-794966.jpg

[chaosakita]

I think it must be a fetish.

[critical mass]

Duh, so it fills out their spandex suits better. Everyone knows that fatasses look downright foolish in tight clothes.

[PatrickG]

i wouldnt consider this an average guys body
http://www.aeroggio.com/uploaded_images/am-spiderman-376-794966.jpg

It makes sense to me given the level of activity these guys have.

Ever stop to think how inefficient swinging between rooftops generally is as anything other than the ultimate workout from hell?

Now consider Batman or anyone without super-powers doing it.

Yes, there are real athletes who do SOME of that. But now imagine covering an area the size of Manhattan several times a night, swinging on a grappling hook -- one delayed movement and you're dead -- and then after eight hours of that, getting into a martial arts brawl with five guys, armed with guns, and winning.

I don't see how that kind of workout wouldn't require having almost inhuman muscle development.

And, really, while you might assume that might not apply to the flying, highly powered guys, I always assumed that Superman really does burn a few thousand calories every time he lifts a car and throws it, that his daily routine probably burns hundreds of millions of calories and that if he didn't have his exotic power sources (ie. the sun, earth's gravity, a stomach that acts as a fusion reactor), he would have to eat more food than there is on the planet in under a week.

[Grazzt]

Ever stop to think how inefficient swinging between rooftops generally is as anything other than the ultimate workout from hell?

I think I remember someone having worked out that it was physically impossible for normal people to use that sort of swinging as a form of transportation. They'd end up dislocating their shoulders after a few times or something like that. Spidey gets a pass, of course, since he has super-powers anyway.

[DC906270-BIL]

[Quote="Michael P"]It's physical idealism as visual shorthand for philosophical idealism.

Interesting suggestion, i wonder if it is really that deep!

[dupont2005]

It makes sense to me given the level of activity these guys have.

Ever stop to think how inefficient swinging between rooftops generally is as anything other than the ultimate workout from hell?

Now consider Batman or anyone without super-powers doing it.

Yes, there are real athletes who do SOME of that. But now imagine covering an area the size of Manhattan several times a night, swinging on a grappling hook -- one delayed movement and you're dead -- and then after eight hours of that, getting into a martial arts brawl with five guys, armed with guns, and winning.

I don't see how that kind of workout wouldn't require having almost inhuman muscle development.

And, really, while you might assume that might not apply to the flying, highly powered guys, I always assumed that Superman really does burn a few thousand calories every time he lifts a car and throws it, that his daily routine probably burns hundreds of millions of calories and that if he didn't have his exotic power sources (ie. the sun, earth's gravity, a stomach that acts as a fusion reactor), he would have to eat more food than there is on the planet in under a week.
but is superman ever really developing muscle? can't he knock planets out of orbit? car tossing would be like flipping through channels to someone like that. and spiderman would have super strength regardless of how skinny and wimpy he looked. i think it all comes down to what some focus group put together by marvel said they liked.

[mgs]

i wouldnt consider this an average guys body
http://www.aeroggio.com/uploaded_images/am-spiderman-376-794966.jpg
even more under consideration, why is that guy's junk square?!? :confused:


Edit: and to answer the question, *thinking of the publishers' reasons* why it's because it's our only visual clue that someone has superstrength! Silly readers! *snicker*

[Papa Moai]

but, i mean scientists like Hank Pym and Reed Richards shouldnt have muscly bodies, they dont do any training for f**ks sake! Sure they do. Why wouldn't someone like Hank Pym, who has been in the superhero business for years, keep himself in shape?

[chaosakita]

even more under consideration, why is that guy's junk square?!? :confused:

That might be a codpiece...

[StoneGold]

Because you're gay for reading them.

[chaosakita]

Because you're gay for reading them.

Then I would be able to find a lot more slash then I've found now.

[StoneGold]

Then I would be able to find a lot more slash then I've found now.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/stonegold/wolviesaber.jpg

[dupont2005]

even more under consideration, why is that guy's junk square?!? :confused:


Edit: and to answer the question, *thinking of the publishers' reasons* why it's because it's our only visual clue that someone has superstrength! Silly readers! *snicker*

ha! i just noticed that. usually they have ken doll crotches. i always figured they would explain it by saying the guys wearing a cup. really though, a big messy pile of nards probably wouldn't have passed the comics code

[chaosakita]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/stonegold/wolviesaber.jpg

Who is that?

AHHH~ DO NOT WANT, actually. I'm just not interested in X-men slash.

But also, where did you get that picture? Or was it just sitting in your hard drive the entire time?

[StoneGold]

ha! i just noticed that. usually they have ken doll crotches. i always figured they would explain it by saying the guys wearing a cup. really though, a big messy pile of nards probably wouldn't have passed the comics code

Pretty much.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/stonegold/andy.jpg

[chaosakita]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/stonegold/andy.jpg

AHHHH MY RETINAS

I was less disturbed when I went on 4chan.

[StoneGold]

Who is that?

AHHH~ DO NOT WANT, actually. I'm just not interested in X-men slash.

But also, where did you get that picture? Or was it just sitting in your hard drive the entire time?

No, in my photobucket account. It's in my collection of material that ze goggles do nothing for.

[chaosakita]

No, in my photobucket account. It's in my collection of material that ze goggles do nothing for.

Do you purposely go up looking this?

But seriously, I'm more concerned about the people who do this. Or maybe I can go see if I can call them up and ask if they can do "commissions"...

...

[StoneGold]

Do you purposely go up looking this?

But seriously, I'm more concerned about the people who do this. Or maybe I can go see if I can call them up and ask if they can do "commissions"...

...

No, at one point it was one of the first things that came up on an image search for wolverine sabertooth.

And if memory serves, after tracking down the website because seriously, what the hell, it was a commission.

[chaosakita]

No, at one point it was one of the first things that came up on an image search for wolverine sabertooth.

And if memory serves, after tracking down the website because seriously, what the hell, it was a commission.

lol, that was Sabertooth (but I'm not very much on X-men, though)?

There are weirder stuff to be commissioned. (http://go-devil-dante.deviantart.com/art/commission-special-cakes-109193172)

I was thinking to get people to dress and pose for me, but commissioning a drawing would be fine too. The artist is pretty good. <333

We need a topic here where we can spam our slash pictures, y/y?

[Suzanne]

This is one of those things I don't think too deeply about. Patrick made some practical points why superheroes are so muscular. I can only assume they squeeze in workouts off-panel. Besides, it's hotter :tongue:

[PatrickG]

With regards to Superman and the like, it really depends on how you see his powers.

I personally like the idea that picking up a pencil or a bag of groceries or a bowling ball is just as hard or strenuous for him as it is for a normal person but that he can simply push himself further and further and further. That he ached the first time he lifted a car but he didn't complain because, at heart, he's Superman and that's who the Kents raised him to be. Superman doesn't complain.

Does it hurt when he takes a nuke to the chest? I'm partial to the idea that with his solar-reinforced brain and body, he experiences pain millions of times more intense than a human could stand and does it with a modest smile. When he says that classic line "It tickles", it doesn't literally tickle but he's mentally and emotionally tougher than a human because of his unwavering resolve.

You ever been in a survival situation where you hit a state of elevated clarity, heightened senses, the ability to function in spite of pain (without being ignorant of it), the intense focus on what to do next, resolve and a perfectly crystallized image of how small you are in the face of the world you inhabit and what you are and what you have to do?

I figure Superman is constantly in an even more heightened version of that state of mind, that state of clarity. He's bombarded with sensory stimuli. His pain sensitivity is probably attuned to that of a non-powered Kryptonian even though his powers make him more than that. Obviously, he isn't made of granite or his secret identity would be blown with every handshake where the flesh of his palm doesn't give, every gust of wind that fails to blow his hair, every time he uses a straw that doesn't displace his lips or chews food that doesn't expand his cheeks.

So my take is that he and other Kryptonians are fleshy, soft, as vulnerable to pain and exertion as anyone else, regardless of powers. It's just that under a yellow sun, they can push farther, excrete and receive strange frequencies of radiation from their eyes and pull against the earth's gravity with straight willpower. The top end limit is removed but the curve upward is still as difficult, albeit shortened by the rapid cellular regeneration which allows for the burning of millions of calories and rebuilding of tissue in fractions of a second, enabling him to do years worth of workout in seconds of solar exposure. But the burn is still there. He's just such a hardass that he smirks and squints his way through it.

[Crowforge]

They work out.

[Asmith]

Because you're gay for reading them.

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww133/saltyjim/wolvieWHATIF.jpg

And why not? Wolverine's joined every other group of oiled up men there is...


Where can you find pleasure
Search the world for treasure
Learn science technology
Where can you begin to make your dreams all come true
On the land or on the sea
Where can you learn to fly
Play in sports and skin dive
Study oceanography
Sign on for the big band
Or sit in the grandstand
When your team and others meet


In the X-men
Yes, you can sail the seven seas
In the X-men
Yes, you can put your mind at ease
In the X-men
Come on now, people, make a stand
In the X-men, in the X-men
Can't you see we need a hand
In the X-men
Come on, protect the motherland
In the X-men
Come on and join your fellow man
In the X-men
Come on people, and make a stand
In the X-men, in the X-men, in the X-men


They want you, they want you
They want you as a new mutant

[chaosakita]

With regards to Superman and the like, it really depends on how you see his powers.

I personally like the idea that picking up a pencil or a bag of groceries or a bowling ball is just as hard or strenuous for him as it is for a normal person but that he can simply push himself further and further and further. That he ached the first time he lifted a car but he didn't complain because, at heart, he's Superman and that's who the Kents raised him to be. Superman doesn't complain.

But what is the strength level of a "normal person?" It would be much easier for a person who has a job lifting heavy objects to do something strenuous than me, but it doesn't mean that either of us aren't "normal people."

[StoneGold]

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww133/saltyjim/wolvieWHATIF.jpg

And why not? Wolverine's joined every other group of oiled up men there is...


Mostly because the Village People would have more taste than the Logan haircut with a ponytail attached.

[nervmeister]

Pretty much.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/stonegold/andy.jpgAGGGGGGH! (eyeballs melt out of sockets)

[chaosakita]

AGGGGGGH! (eyeballs melt out of sockets)

Picture? What picture?

Oh yeah, it was so bad I adblocked it.

[yollyP.]

T'was one of the main requirement to become a Superhero. How can you beat the enemies with a toothpick like body?

[Agent Helix]

Laser eyes? Telekinesis? Any number of superpowers that don't require upper body strength?

[Pól Rua]

Joe Maduiera drew muscles on Cyclops.

That's because Joe Madureira can't draw.
Yeah, yeah, he can draw a big musclebound Batman with his eyes closed, but ask him to draw a normal guy, and he's up the proverbial creek.

Welcome to the wonderful world of what happens where comic artists can ONLY draw 'comics art'.

[Pól Rua]

Laser eyes? Telekinesis? Any number of superpowers that don't require upper body strength?

Cyclops and Marvel Girl were both trained in The Danger Room.
Plus, fighting a bad guy with TK or Laser Eyes isn't just a matter of sitting in your recliner and letting your powers do all the work.
There's a lot of running and jumping and standing still to do in 'big, dumb superhero fite' (tm).

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/stonegold/andy.jpg

That really is the greatest fucking picture ever.

You don't have a copy of my old fave, that I can't find anymore, where a dude (who looks like Joe Rice) is dressed as Elektra?

Welcome to the wonderful world of what happens where comic artists can ONLY draw comics.

Two minutes In... (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=rI2nCVZHQv8)

[Tracer Bullet]

We need more fatty heroes and villains.

[DanDunne]

It's an artistic convention as much as anything else I'd reckon.

I've always found that Superman, for example, looks coolest when he's given a more natural physique - it makes his power displays just seem that much cooler and otherwordly.

[StoneGold]

We need more fatty heroes and villains.

There are more than a few villains. That's because everyone hates fat people, including fat people. Self-loathing is awesome!

[howyadoin]

We need more fatty heroes and villains.More crippled ones, too.

[dupont2005]

i would love to see a superpowered costumed doo-gooder that looked like a crumb self portrait
http://home.earthlink.net/~copaceticom1/CrumbHandbook.jpg
http://beanyland.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/12/14/rcrumb1.jpg

as someone falls from a 40 story balcony he swings in via grapplehook just in time to save them from death. they touch ground as soft as a feather and then the person he just saved says "gross! get your hands off me you freak"

[Tracer Bullet]

Jessica Jones used to be kind of homely, but now she's swimsuit material. No love for the fat superchicks

[Crowforge]

In reality most people look like a cross between a sausage and a sack of potatoes.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

More crippled ones, too.


Fat villains aren't that amazing, there's what the blob, kingpin, the mole man that I can recall off the top of my head.

Top of my head can't recall to many crippled villains; though Dr. Sun might count with the whole robot body thing going on ala prosthetic or whatever....

For heroes there is Prof. X and the woman who was in the New Warriors back in the day.

Oracle for DC

[Pól Rua]

We need more fatty heroes and villains.

Speaking as a fattie... no. No, we don't.
When I read about heroes, especially superheroes, I don't need them to be like me.
I'm sick of this whole "I want my heroes to be something that makes me feel good about being a neurotic, self-doubting bum" thing. I want my heroes to be something to aspire towards.

[howyadoin]

Fat villains aren't that amazing, there's what the blob, kingpin, the mole man that I can recall off the top of my head.

Top of my head can't recall to many crippled villains; though Dr. Sun might count with the whole robot body thing going on ala prosthetic or whatever....

For heroes there is Prof. X and the woman who was in the New Warriors back in the day.

Oracle for DCNot enough. I think every team book should have a mandatory cripple.

[StoneGold]

Speaking as a fattie... no. No, we don't.
When I read about heroes, especially superheroes, I don't need them to be like me.
I'm sick of this whole "I want my heroes to be something that makes me feel good about being a neurotic, self-doubting bum" thing. I want my heroes to be something to aspire towards.

Like I said, fatties are self-loathing.

[Tracer Bullet]

Speaking as a fattie... no. No, we don't.
When I read about heroes, especially superheroes, I don't need them to be like me.
I'm sick of this whole "I want my heroes to be something that makes me feel good about being a neurotic, self-doubting bum" thing. I want my heroes to be something to aspire towards.

And how much progress have you made reading them, fattie mcfatcakes?

[StoneGold]

Not enough. I think every team book should have a mandatory cripple.

You mean like Cyclops?

[Pól Rua]

And how much progress have you made reading them, fattie mcfatcakes?

Honestly. Quite a bit.
Mainly by means of dropping 90% of the crap I was reading out of habit and only reading stuff that actually makes my life better for having read it.

I'd just much rather feel better about myself by means of getting out of the house, meeting people, hanging around with friends, having fun and talking to girls, than I would sitting in my basement with the lights out, and feeling a bit better about being a fat, self-loathing shut-in because "Hey, check it out, Spider-Man's a fat, self-loathing shut-in, too."

What I'm saying is that there are certain things I look for in comic book superheroes and validation of my own weaknesses isn't one of them.

[dupont2005]

i dont aspire to be a roided out freak.
http://macabrefitness.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/muscleman.jpg

[Pól Rua]

i dont aspire to be a roided out freak.
Well, it's a jolly good thing that I'm not reading stuff by Simon Bisley, Liam Sharp or any of the Image founders then.

Nice false dichotomy, by the way.

[dupont2005]

i do like sam keith though:biggrin:

[thehod]

Not enough. I think every team book should have a mandatory cripple.

Most of the women on superhero teams are written as emotional ones, so we're half there.

[Tracer Bullet]

Honestly. Quite a bit.
Mainly by means of dropping 90% of the crap I was reading out of habit and only reading stuff that actually makes my life better for having read it.

I'd just much rather feel better about myself by means of getting out of the house, meeting people, hanging around with friends, having fun and talking to girls, than I would sitting in my basement with the lights out, and feeling a bit better about being a fat, self-loathing shut-in because "Hey, check it out, Spider-Man's a fat, self-loathing shut-in, too."

What I'm saying is that there are certain things I look for in comic book superheroes and validation of my own weaknesses isn't one of them.

But you say that you want heroes as something to aspire to, but they only make you feel good because you live vicariously through them. It's not like you look at them and think "man, I should work out more so I can bag supermodels like MJ." You're really saying you want heroes that keep you complacent.

And who's to say that a fat hero would have to be self-loathing? I mean being fat definitely isn't ideal, but it's not the worst thing in the world either and I imagine that would be the point worth showing in depicting fat heroes.

[Pól Rua]

But you say that you want heroes as something to aspire to, but they only make you feel good because you live vicariously through them. It's not like you look at them and think "man, I should work out more so I can bag supermodels like MJ." You're really saying you want heroes that keep you complacent.

And who's to say that a fat hero would have to be self-loathing? I mean being fat definitely isn't ideal, but it's not the worst thing in the world either and I imagine that would be the point worth showing in depicting fat heroes.

Okay, point 1. Where the fuck did I say that?
Basically, I have the shits with this whole defeatist idea that "heroes should be exactly like us so they don't hurt my feelings by making me feel bad about myself. Oh boo hoo. Superman's perfect abs make me feel like my doughy body is ugly and fat boo fucking hoo. Why can't he be a big fat neurotic social inadequate like me! That'd make me feel better about being a no hoper!"

I never said a fat hero would be self-loathing, but I think that people who think that they need to validate themselves by insisting that everyone should be brought down to their level, probably are.

[howyadoin]

But you say that you want heroes as something to aspire to, but they only make you feel good because you live vicariously through them.Maybe you oughta read what he actually said instead what you thought he said.

[Pól Rua]

Maybe you oughta read what he actually said instead what you thought he said.

Or just making up a bunch of self serving horse-shit.
Reading comprehension is important.

[Tracer Bullet]

Okay, point 1. Where the fuck did I say that?
You didn't have to.

Basically, I have the shits with this whole defeatist idea that "heroes should be exactly like us so they don't hurt my feelings by making me feel bad about myself. Oh boo hoo. Superman's perfect abs make me feel like my doughy body is ugly and fat boo fucking hoo. Why can't he be a big fat neurotic social inadequate like me! That'd make me feel better about being a no hoper!"

I never said a fat hero would be self-loathing, but I think that people who think that they need to validate themselves by insisting that everyone should be brought down to their level probably are.
I understand that, and I agree. But plenty of people talk about how inspirational reading about the exploits of heroes are, but it makes no real difference in their lives. It makes you feel good and that;s great, but is it really inspirational or something to aspire towards when you live your everyday life the same after you put the book down?

[dupont2005]

I never said a fat hero would be self-loathing, but I think that people who think that they need to validate themselves by insisting that everyone should be brought down to their level probably are.

who says they want the hero "brought down to their level?"

sometimes the superheroes whole back story is regular guy accidentally obtains awesome powers. coincidentally, this regular guy who was getting pushed around by bullies before they got their power and has never set foot in a gym is ripped like a bodybuilding champion and cut like an underwear model. unless the guys superpower is being dead sexy in spandex, its not too outrageous to wonder why a guy whose power is turning into ice or having lazer vision couldn't also be fat or skinny. not saying all heroes without strength based powers need to be fat or skinny either, but wouldn't it bring a little variety to the super team? it might also bring opportunities for comic relief without having to have a token slapstick hero with an absolutely useless power. i see plenty of opportunity for unique side plots with this concept.

or how about the character is ripped like all the other heroes, but is just an offensively disgusting freak? not someone who was dipped in acid or born on another planet or deep undersea or anything. just an ugly freak who also happens to fly?
http://kielski.net/pic/Carrot_Top_Muscles.jpg
i see all kinds of awesome things with this concept. maybe an entire super team of social outcasts and dweebs that get shit on all day and fight crime by night?

[howyadoin]

i see all kinds of awesome things with this concept. maybe an entire super team of social outcasts and dweebs that get shit on all day and fight crime by night?Spider-Man joins the X-Men?

[StoneGold]

Spider-Man joins the X-Men?

That, or Kick-Ass.

[howyadoin]

That, or Kick-Ass.There's a book that knows its audience.

[dupont2005]

Spider-Man joins the X-Men?

thats the thing though. people with bodies like this
http://www.samruby.com/History/CosmicSpiderman.gif
who bang chicks that look like this
http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/Mary%20jane%20coquette%20statue.jpg
aren't really getting picked on for being nerdy

[Pól Rua]

You didn't have to.
I suspect I may have, considering you managed to utterly miss my point.

I understand that, and I agree. But plenty of people talk about how inspirational reading about the exploits of heroes are, but it makes no real difference in their lives. It makes you feel good and that;s great, but is it really inspirational or something to aspire towards when you live your everyday life the same after you put the book down?
Okay, so what you're saying is... there are a bunch of apathetic comic book readers who are quite comfortable with pointless lives of quiet desperation...

...and your solution is, what? To pander to their need for validation, despite their unwillingness to change by giving them funnybook heroes as emotionally crippled, weak and hapless as they are.

Honestly, these folks don't need pandering to.
They need to get the hell out of their parents' basement and, if I can quote William Shatner here (and I think I can), they need to GET A LIFE!

[Crowforge]

i dont aspire to be a roided out freak.


I do... i will crush you

[thehod]

i dont aspire to be a roided out freak.
http://macabrefitness.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/muscleman.jpg

Jeez, that picture is so fake.



His package should be much, much smaller than that.

[Tracer Bullet]

I suspect I may have, considering you managed to utterly miss my point.

I think you're missing mine, so we're even.


Okay, so what you're saying is... there are a bunch of apathetic comic book readers who are quite comfortable with pointless lives of quiet desperation...
I'm saying that your claim that heroes shouldn't be fat because they need to be something to aspire to is bullshit, because you have not aspired to get to the gym. Morally heroes should be ideal figures, but why put so much weight(pun intended) on their appearance? That you would make the kind of negative associations with depicting more realistic figures says more about your personal hangups than any inherent problems with giving readers less attractive heroes.

...and your solution is, what? To pander to their need for validation, despite their unwillingness to change by giving them funnybook heroes as emotionally crippled, weak and hapless as they are.

Honestly, these folks don't need pandering to.
They need to get the hell out of their parents' basement and, if I can quote William Shatner here (and I think I can), they need to GET A LIFE!

Why are you assuming it has to be one or the other? A diversity of heroes is great, and as I understood it, kinda the point of this thread. Not every hero needs to have the body of a Greek god. That's just not realistic. People need things they can connect to, and that includes other average everyday people.

I can look to people of all shapes and sizes as inspirations if their deeds are extraordinary. They don't have to look a certain way for me. You can self-loathe if you want though.:confused:

[Pól Rua]

Not every hero needs to have the body of a Greek god. That's just not realistic.
But radioactive spider blood is cool, right?

People need things they can connect to, and that includes other average everyday people.
Which, conceptually, is the OPPOSITE of 'Superhero'.

[chaosakita]

That really is the greatest fucking picture ever.

You don't have a copy of my old fave, that I can't find anymore, where a dude (who looks like Joe Rice) is dressed as Elektra?


Two minutes In... (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=rI2nCVZHQv8)

I really want to see that picture. Or not. Or I'll just brb laughing my head off.

LIEFELD!!!! But seriously, I didn't know he looks(ed) so young..,and ugly. EWWW.

We need more fatty heroes and villains.

We can't have any ugly people in our comics!

Why are you assuming it has to be one or the other? A diversity of heroes is great, and as I understood it, kinda the point of this thread. Not every hero needs to have the body of a Greek god. That's just not realistic. People need things they can connect to, and that includes other average everyday people.

I can look to people of all shapes and sizes as inspirations if their deeds are extraordinary. They don't have to look a certain way for me. You can self-loathe if you want though.:confused:

I've always considered "relatability" to be one of the most confusing choices of any reason to like a character.

i dont aspire to be a roided out freak.
http://macabrefitness.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/muscleman.jpg

I don't know whether it's a good or bad thing that I laughed at that picture.

[Tracer Bullet]

But radioactive spider blood is cool, right?

What does that have to do with anything?:confused:


Which, conceptually, is the OPPOSITE of 'Superhero'.
The modern concept of heroes are everyday people with extraordinary abilities who make a conscious decision to use those abilities to help others.

We can't have any ugly people in our comics!
Not all fatties are uglies. And I was mostly thinking of the pudge-pudges not the obese Blob-esque type.



I've always considered "relatability" to be one of the most confusing choices of any reason to like a character.
How so? You need some sort of anchor to be able to empathize with the characters.

[Paradox]

Tracer Bullet spots motivation:

How so? You need some sort of anchor to be able to empathize with the characters.

If, of course, that's what you want. Some people just like a good story.

[Pól Rua]

What does that have to do with anything?:confused:
You said that having heroes be physically fit (let's ditch the 'Greek God/bodybuilder vs everyone else' false dichotomy) in the comic where the guy with the radioactive spider blood fights the pudgy mad scientist with the robot octopus arms was unrealistic.

[Pól Rua]

What does that have to do with anything?:confused:
You were saying that healthy bodies (let's ditch the 'Greek God/bodybuilder vs fat-fat-fatties' false dichotomy shall we) was an unrealistic element in the story with the teenager with the radioactive spider blood fighting the podgy bloke with the robot octopus arms.

The modern concept of heroes are everyday people with extraordinary abilities who make a conscious decision to use those abilities to help others.

1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4. Classical Mythology.
a. a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
b. (in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
c. (in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.

Okay, first, this is not THE modern concept, it's YOUR concept.
Second, I'm not seeing anything here about them being 'everyday people'. In fact, pretty much every definition here with the exception of #3, talks about exceptional qualities.

[Winslow]

You were saying that healthy bodies (let's ditch the 'Greek God/bodybuilder vs fat-fat-fatties' false dichotomy shall we) was an unrealistic element in the story with the teenager with the radioactive spider blood fighting the podgy bloke with the robot octopus arms.




Okay, first, this is not THE modern concept, it's YOUR concept.
Second, I'm not seeing anything here about them being 'everyday people'. In fact, pretty much every definition here with the exception of #3, talks about exceptional qualities.

Gotta agree with the monkey flinging poo here. :wink:

Superheroes are about who we want to be or wish we could be, not about who we are. And I wish I had six pack abs and well defined nice pecs. :biggrin:

There does need to be something we can connect with ... like Peter Parker being the rejected nerd in high school ... or Clark Kent being the bumbling awkward nerd ... or the tragedy of Bruce Wayne ... but then the Superhero transcends these problems to become a hero, in the same manner we want to transcend our own problems.

Wow, I really geeked out on this post.

[chaosakita]

Not all fatties are uglies. And I was mostly thinking of the pudge-pudges not the obese Blob-esque type.

No, I don't think so.

How so? You need some sort of anchor to be able to empathize with the characters.

Characters have to be human, but I don't have a need to see "me" in them.

[howyadoin]

Characters have to be human, but I don't have a need to see "me" in them.Agreed. Anybody who can only relate to characters that mirror them has their head up their ass.

[Crowforge]

I'm both muscle-y and fat, does that mean I get to be an antihero?

[Tracer Bullet]

If, of course, that's what you want. Some people just like a good story.
Which is fair, but we're talking about why a person would like a character.

You were saying that healthy bodies (let's ditch the 'Greek God/bodybuilder vs fat-fat-fatties' false dichotomy shall we) was an unrealistic element in the story with the teenager with the radioactive spider blood fighting the podgy bloke with the robot octopus arms.

No, I wasn't. And there's nothing false about the dichotomy you're dismissing, especially since it's the point raised in the initial post of the thread. I'm talking about having an abundant amount of heroes in peak physical condition when many of them don't have powers that demand it. It would be nice to see more physical diversity is what I'm saying. But I guess your intention is to reword my argument so you can dismiss it.



Okay, first, this is not THE modern concept, it's YOUR concept.
Second, I'm not seeing anything here about them being 'everyday people'. In fact, pretty much every definition here with the exception of #3, talks about exceptional qualities.
I wasn't using a dictionary reference.

Characters have to be human, but I don't have a need to see "me" in them.
You're still relating to a character like you if they need to be human. Unless you belong to another species.

[chaosakita]

I'm both muscle-y and fat, does that mean I get to be an antihero?

No, if your ugly, you have to be the villain, because beauty equals goodness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeautyEqualsGoodness).

You're still relating to a character like you if they need to be human. Unless you belong to another species.

I just think that the characters need to have human reactions to things, but not necessarily my reactions. And since I really haven't had any of the situations the characters in the story have, I don't have the reaction for me in the first place.

[Tracer Bullet]

I just think that the characters need to have human reactions to things, but not necessarily my reactions. And since I really haven't had any of the situations the characters in the story have, I don't have the reaction for me in the first place.

I understand. I'm using a broader definition of relate, not necessarily in terms of the type of personality a character has. For me, if I were to say watch a show where a character murders his child's killer, I would be able to relate to that character but not because I would do the same or have had the same experience. It would be because, as you said, the character had human reactions that are understandable we can imagine being those kinds of situations and we may have even experienced similar emotions even if the actual circumstances were different. It's relating in a way that you are able to make a connection with a character no matter how different they are from you.

[Pól Rua]

I think you're missing mine, so we're even.
No. I'm looking at the disease. You're looking at the symptom.
Fat people feel sad because their heroes look more buff than them, so they want to see more fatties as heroes.
Welcome to a bigger picture. People who have problems (in this case, being overweight) are sad because their heroes are better than they are (in this case, 'Greek Godly'), so they demand their heroes have feet of clay installed... i.e. be brought down to their level so they don't have to feel so bad about themselves.
The people who complain about superheroes being skinnier than they are, are the same sort of people who complain about superheroes being less conflicted, braver, more honest, noble, selfless and heroic than they are too. They feel bad about themselves because their Superheroes are better than they are so they feel the solution is to have Superheroes who are weak, venal, ignoble, dishonest, selfish and, yeah, why the hell not, fat. Just like them.
Here's the problem: Superheroes are SUPPOSED to be better than you.
So yeah, from where I'm standing, you're in a forest. I'm not in a tree.

I'm saying that your claim that heroes shouldn't be fat because they need to be something to aspire to is bullshit, because you have not aspired to get to the gym.
Who says? I aspire to go to the gym all the time. I don't do it, but I want to. I'd love to look like certain comic book characters.
What you're calling for is not aspiration, but surrender.
You don't even want to WANT anything more, so you're gonna try and tear down what's there so you don't have to look at it.

Morally heroes should be ideal figures, but why put so much weight(pun intended) on their appearance?
I don't. I just find it annoying that there are people who, rather than trying harder, would rather everything be made easier to suit them.

That you would make the kind of negative associations with depicting more realistic figures says more about your personal hangups than any inherent problems with giving readers less attractive heroes.
No. I just find whiners annoying.
Oh yeah, and I don't tend to look for 'realism' in my capes and spandex entertainment. Verisimilitude, sure, but 'realism'. No.

Why are you assuming it has to be one or the other?
Because you set up the false dichotomy.
The thread is called "Why do ALL SUPERHEROES HAVE MUSCLEY PUMPED-UP BODIES".
First, the statement that lumps 'All Superheroes' together is false. Spider-Man, Professor X, Robin, Bouncing Boy, Jack Staff, Kick Ass, Plastic Man... all have different physiques. The Sub-Mariner has a different physique than Cable. Wonder Woman's physique is different to Sue Storm's. Daredevil is built differently to Captain America. Batman and Superman have different builds.
And of course, all this changes when different artists take over. Jim Lee draws Batman in a more muscular way than Jim Aparo did. Frank Quitely draws Superman differently to Curt Swan, which is different again to Wayne Boring, which is different again to Joe Schuster.
Steve Ditko draws a different Spider-Man than Erik Larsen.

Secondly, the build that 'All Superheroes' supposedly has is 'Muscley and Pumped-Up', a bodybuilder's build.
Batman and Spider-Man tend to be built more like Gymnasts, with longer limbs and narrower hips. Aquaman and the Sub-Mariner have swimmer's builds (naturally enough), broad shoulders, narrow hips.
Superman has the broad, deep chest and thick arms of a bodybuilder, but Green Lantern doesn't.
Flash (naturally again) looks like a runner, with a narrow frame and muscular legs.

And there's nothing false about the dichotomy you're dismissing, especially since it's the point raised in the initial post of the thread. I'm talking about having an abundant amount of heroes in peak physical condition when many of them don't have powers that demand it. It would be nice to see more physical diversity is what I'm saying. But I guess your intention is to reword my argument so you can dismiss it.
Wow. Those goalposts certainly did move, didn't they?
Now that it's been proved that ALL superheroes DON'T have MUSCLEY, PUMPED-UP bodies... we're gonna redefine. Nice.
Why the hell should I reword your argument when you're doing it for me?


I wasn't using a dictionary reference.
No you weren't. You were using the English language. Incorrectly.
You were making up definitions to suit your own purposes. You were repurposing language to your own aims. Doubleplus ungood of you, citizen.

[nervmeister]

This thread reminds me of Ang Lee's Hulk where they chose a jock to play Bruce Banner.

[dupont2005]

I don't. I just find it annoying that there are people who, rather than trying harder, would rather everything be made easier to suit them.



i find it annoying that there are people who equate someone thinking a geek superhero should have a geek body with a fat, lazy, pathetic, self loathing, basement dweller who will never lift a finger for anything but a twinky


some of us just think that geeks don't have gold medalist triathlete bodies. just like some of us cannot accept that wire frame glasses is a suitable disguise, or that the most powerful being on the planet spends his days getting chewed out by some asshole boss for 40k a year while all the galaxy destroying godlike villains wait until after 5 to start destroying the universe. and just like some of us think it's a little hard to believe that a vigilante crime fighter is going to bother running around dressed up like a hooker bat in spandex and capes. i know super hero comics are not made for people like that, but that does not mean we are fat lazy pathetic losers who want everybody in fiction and reality to be as fat and pathetic as us.

[Pól Rua]

This thread reminds me of Ang Lee's Hulk where they chose a jock to play Bruce Banner.

Oh yeah, he's a FRIGGIN' TANK!
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f277/bacwood/Eric%20Bana/pictures/eric-bana-sunglasses-04.jpg
Just because you've only seen him in action roles doesn't make him Schwarzeneggar.
Try again.

[Pól Rua]

i find it annoying that there are people who equate someone thinking a geek superhero should have a geek body with a fat, lazy, pathetic, self loathing, basement dweller who will never lift a finger for anything but a twinky
some of us just think that geeks don't have gold medalist triathlete bodies. just like some of us cannot accept that wire frame glasses is a suitable disguise, or that the most powerful being on the planet spends his days getting chewed out by some asshole boss for 40k a year while all the galaxy destroying godlike villains wait until after 5 to start destroying the universe. and just like some of us think it's a little hard to believe that a vigilante crime fighter is going to bother running around dressed up like a hooker bat in spandex and capes. i know super hero comics are not made for people like that, but that does not mean we are fat lazy pathetic losers who want everybody in fiction and reality to be as fat and pathetic as us.

Reading comprehension is important.
Take your false dichotomy and try selling it to someone else. I'm not buying it. 'Cos see that horseshit you wrote?
Never wrote anything like it.
Next time you try and tell me what I mean, try reading what I actually wrote.

Thanks.

[dupont2005]

Reading comprehension is important.

did i misread you calling us all fat and pathetic because we would like to see superheroes with body types that match the character? if so, i apologize, but i do not think it is the case.

[nervmeister]

Just because you've only seen him in action roles doesn't make him Schwarzeneggar.
Actually, Hulk is the first time I've ever seen him in a role. And he still looked like he played varsity football in it. He would've made a better Flash Thompson than Bruce Banner.

[Pól Rua]

did i misread you calling us all fat and pathetic because we would like to see superheroes with body types that match the character? if so, i apologize, but i do not think it is the case.

Yes you did.
Apology accepted.

[dupont2005]

I'm sick of this whole "I want my heroes to be something that makes me feel good about being a neurotic, self-doubting bum" thing.


I'd just much rather feel better about myself by means of getting out of the house, meeting people, hanging around with friends, having fun and talking to girls, than I would sitting in my basement with the lights out, and feeling a bit better about being a fat, self-loathing shut-in because "Hey, check it out, Spider-Man's a fat, self-loathing shut-in, too."



Basically, I have the shits with this whole defeatist idea that "heroes should be exactly like us so they don't hurt my feelings by making me feel bad about myself. Oh boo hoo. Superman's perfect abs make me feel like my doughy body is ugly and fat boo fucking hoo. Why can't he be a big fat neurotic social inadequate like me! That'd make me feel better about being a no hoper!"

I never said a fat hero would be self-loathing, but I think that people who think that they need to validate themselves by insisting that everyone should be brought down to their level, probably are.


Okay, so what you're saying is... there are a bunch of apathetic comic book readers who are quite comfortable with pointless lives of quiet desperation...

...and your solution is, what? To pander to their need for validation, despite their unwillingness to change by giving them funnybook heroes as emotionally crippled, weak and hapless as they are.

Honestly, these folks don't need pandering to.
They need to get the hell out of their parents' basement and, if I can quote William Shatner here (and I think I can), they need to GET A LIFE!

where did i misread?

[Pól Rua]

where did i misread?

No. I'm looking at the disease. You're looking at the symptom.
Fat people feel sad because their heroes look more buff than them, so they want to see more fatties as heroes.
Welcome to a bigger picture. People who have problems (in this case, being overweight) are sad because their heroes are better than they are (in this case, 'Greek Godly'), so they demand their heroes have feet of clay installed... i.e. be brought down to their level so they don't have to feel so bad about themselves.
The people who complain about superheroes being skinnier than they are, are the same sort of people who complain about superheroes being less conflicted, braver, more honest, noble, selfless and heroic than they are too. They feel bad about themselves because their Superheroes are better than they are so they feel the solution is to have Superheroes who are weak, venal, ignoble, dishonest, selfish and, yeah, why the hell not, fat. Just like them.
Here's the problem: Superheroes are SUPPOSED to be better than you.

Okay.
There's a problem. The problem is poor self image. There are a couple of ways we can deal with this problem. One is to address the situation by seeking to change it. To make positive changes in ourselves and our environments. Get out, see people, have fun, talk to friends, be sociable.
The second is to try and validate the status quo. In this way, we maintain the exact same situation which is the root and cause of this poor self esteem, however, we seek and illusion of security and comfort by projecting our weaknesses outward so that the world exists as a reflection of our own inadequacy.

What we're starting with is an illusion. That all Superheroes have Pumped-Up, Muscly Bodies, and that this is a terrible thing. Threatening, even.
First, it isn't true.
Second, the solution we are presented to this terrible (but illusory) threat is that we should have more fat superheroes, to reflect this terrible, terrible state of affairs (which doesn't exist).
You tell me what's going on.

[nervmeister]

Now on to supervillains.....

Hmmm. What was the Joker's daily exercise routine like again?

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/vol/19000/18164/18164-118697-1-all-star-batman--ro_400.jpg

[Pól Rua]

Now on to supervillains.....
Hmmm. What was the Joker's daily exercise routine like again?

Couple of points I made earlier:
That's because Joe Madureira can't draw.
Yeah, yeah, he can draw a big musclebound Batman with his eyes closed, but ask him to draw a normal guy, and he's up the proverbial creek.
Welcome to the wonderful world of what happens where comic artists can ONLY draw 'comics art'.

And of course, all this changes when different artists take over. Jim Lee draws Batman in a more muscular way than Jim Aparo did. Frank Quitely draws Superman differently to Curt Swan, which is different again to Wayne Boring, which is different again to Joe Schuster.
Steve Ditko draws a different Spider-Man than Erik Larsen.

The Joker looks buff like that because Jim Lee can't draw normal people for shit.

[nervmeister]

Couple of points I made earlier:




The Joker looks buff like that because Jim Lee can't draw normal people for shit.LOL. Michelangelo's Joker for the win! :biggrin:

[dupont2005]

Okay.
There's a problem. The problem is poor self image. There are a couple of ways we can deal with this problem. One is to address the situation by seeking to change it. To make positive changes in ourselves and our environments. Get out, see people, have fun, talk to friends, be sociable.
The second is to try and validate the status quo. In this way, we maintain the exact same situation which is the root and cause of this poor self esteem, however, we seek and illusion of security and comfort by projecting our weaknesses outward so that the world exists as a reflection of our own inadequacy.

What we're starting with is an illusion. That all Superheroes have Pumped-Up, Muscly Bodies, and that this is a terrible thing. Threatening, even.
First, it isn't true.
Second, the solution we are presented to this terrible (but illusory) threat is that we should h
You tell me what's going on.
what solution? what problem? you're generalizing a group of peoples appearance, lifestyle, and worth. you are basically calling ME a worthless human being, and have over and over again, since the start of this topic, and YOU get offended when someone calls you on it? i'm amused at how personal the topic is to you. you see, i don't get off on fictional spandex clad musclemen, they do not encourage or dictate my life in any way. you have said yourself they do yours. and it is true, every single marvel superhero is built like nobody i have ever met, or even seen in person. yes, even mr. fantastic
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/camel19/105459-mr-fantastic_400cropped.jpg
and definitely spider-man
http://www.savagedragon.com/covers/spiderman15.jpg
people do not look like that. ever. especially not people who get picked on for being a dork day by day. you will NEVER see that level of definition on anybody except for the extremely rare possible case of a world class bodybuilder starving and injecting themselves to success. now, if spiderman is supposed to be a geeky photographer, but is built like an inhuman freak of strength, how does that work?

you see, my argument is that SOMETIMES a hero's powers and lifestyle do not explain the mass of bulging inhuman strength they are drawn with, and in those cases it would be appropriate to depict them closer to the character they were written to be.

i NEVER said fat superheroes should exist for the sake of being kind to fat people and their self-image. this is something you decided i think despite my clear explanation otherwise.

[Pól Rua]

you are basically calling ME a worthless human being, and have over and over again, since the start of this topic, and YOU get offended when someone calls you on it?
No. Once again, you are not reading what I've written.
There are people who want superheroes to be imperfect so that they can feel better about their own shortcomings. There are people who want their own weaknesses and limitations validated by having these same weaknesses reflected in their heroes.
If you make the choice to identify with that sort of person, don't blame me for your decisions.
You choose. You decide.
I never called YOU a 'worthless human being'.
If you choose to be offended by something that was not aimed at you, that's your baggage.
Leave me the fuck out of it.

i'm amused at how personal the topic is to you.
Not at all. I don't find the issue of fat superheroes that personal.
I just get annoyed when people can't be arsed reading and would rather pitch a fucking fit over what they IMAGINE they've read.

you see, i don't get off on fictional spandex clad musclemen, they do not encourage or dictate my life in any way. you have said yourself they do yours.
This is a load of self-serving horse shit.
Also, while I have made no direct attacks on you as a person, I'd like to thank you for characterising me, personally, as someone who 'gets off' on 'fictional spandex musclemen' and allows them to 'dictate my life'.
Well done.

every single marvel superhero is built like nobody i have ever met, or even seen in person. yes, even mr. fantastic
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/camel19/105459-mr-fantastic_400cropped.jpg
and definitely spider-man
http://www.savagedragon.com/covers/spiderman15.jpg
people do not look like that. ever.
I'd like to refer you back to my comments (which I've made twice) about artists who are incapable of drawing normal people.
I love the fact that you can scan my posts for throwaway comments to misinterpret as personal attacks, but you've failed to see a point which I've made quite clearly on two separate occasions.
I mean, really, you're gonna cite Erik Larsen?
Why not castigate Matt Groening for the bug-eyed yellow-skinned three fingered people? Why not criticize Walt Disney for the fact that, in general, mice don't wear red pants and gloves?
Okay, so it's not realistic that Peter Parker as drawn by Erik Larsen is as muscular as he is.
Guess what... it's not realistic that anything as drawn by Erik Larsen is as it appears.
And the same goes for Jack Kirby, Dick Sprang, Simon Bisley, Bill Sienkiewicz, Steve Ditko...
These guys are not 'realistic' artists. They are stylistic.

you see, my argument is that SOMETIMES a hero's powers and lifestyle do not explain the mass of bulging inhuman strength they are drawn with, and in those cases it would be appropriate to depict them closer to the character they were written to be.
And you wanna declare amusement at how personally I'M taking this issue?
Wow.

i NEVER said fat superheroes should exist for the sake of being kind to fat people and their self-image. this is something you decided i think despite my clear explanation otherwise.
I never decided it was what YOU think.
I declared that there were people who think this. You were the one who decided to cast yourself in the role of 'injured party'.
Once again. Your choice.

[Tony Bang]

For everybody who wants a fat superhero you should check out Dark Horse's Herbie Popnecker collections. Herbie's superhero name is...The Fat Fury
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n292/TonyBang/fatfurylogo.gif

I remember an interview where Alan Moore called him his favorite superhero.

[Pól Rua]

For everybody who wants a fat superhero you should check out Dark Horse's Herbie Popnecker collections. Herbie's superhero name is...The Fat Fury
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n292/TonyBang/fatfurylogo.gif

I remember an interview where Alan Moore called him his favorite superhero.

Herbie Rocks!

[thehod]

Pol's hit the nail on the head here. Its not that all superheroes are meant to be built like brick shit houses, its just that for the vast majority of current artists, they are incapable of drawing them any other way.

The best depiction of Superman I've seen is Tim Sale's from Superman for all Seasons.

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/superman-seasons.jpg

This is a guy who is clearly a big bloke. But hes not extraordinarly ripped. He's got the build of a rugby player, not of a Mr Universe candidate. Its harks back to the style of Wayne Boring and Curt Swan.

Then look at Jim Lee's version, and here is a character who must need to spend more time pumping iron that writing lead stories or saving the world...
http://blog.ugo.com/images/uploads/superman_dccomics_art.jpg

There is a crop of current artists who seem incapable of drawing any male, especially the lead character, without making them ultra definied, and are incapable of drawing any women without making her legs go all the way to her earholes.

Its not a matter of needing fat heroes (or skinny heroes, or pear shaped heroes, or any other body size you care to mention) because the original statement was false. Not all heroes have muscley pumped up bodies, as has already been pointed out. There are many shapes and sizes out there, but it does all depend on the artist.

[Crowforge]

So you want capes to look like offseason bodybuilders?

[Pól Rua]

So you want capes to look like offseason bodybuilders?

Just the mid-western cornfed ex-footballers turned investigative journalists.

[howyadoin]

The best depiction of Superman I've seen is Tim Sale's from Superman for all Seasons.

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/superman-seasons.jpg

This is a guy who is clearly a big bloke. But hes not extraordinarly ripped. He's got the build of a rugby player, not of a Mr Universe candidate. Its harks back to the style of Wayne Boring and Curt Swan.

Then look at Jim Lee's version, and here is a character who must need to spend more time pumping iron that writing lead stories or saving the world...
http://blog.ugo.com/images/uploads/superman_dccomics_art.jpg

You don't think that moving planets or fighting supervillains would give him enough of a workout to build muscle mass and give him definition?

Face it, in battle at least, he should be ripped. When he's relaxed - not so much.

[thehod]

You don't think that moving planets or fighting supervillains would give him enough of a workout to build muscle mass and give him definition?

Face it, in battle at least, he should be ripped. When he's relaxed - not so much.

Not really no.

His strength comes from somewhere other than his muscle structure. So sure, he'll be fit and solid because he's engaging in regular physical activity, but build like Arnold circa 1979, not so much.

Batman on the other hand, yes, as his strength comes directly from his physical prowess, so I'd certainly expect Batman to be much more defined than Superman, although not necessarily bigger in size.

[Tracer Bullet]

No. I'm looking at the disease. You're looking at the symptom.
Fat people feel sad because their heroes look more buff than them, so they want to see more fatties as heroes
That’s a baseless assertion.

Welcome to a bigger picture. People who have problems (in this case, being overweight) are sad because their heroes are better than they are (in this case, 'Greek Godly'), so they demand their heroes have feet of clay installed... i.e. be brought down to their level so they don't have to feel so bad about themselves.

Heroes have feet of clay so we can all relate to them, because none of us are perfect. You act as if there’s some sort of Fatty Coalition protesting outside of Marvel and DC HQ’s. You already admitted that you’re a fatty, so why make that kind of generalization? Please pick out the fatties in this thread that made such claims.

The people who complain about superheroes being skinnier than they are, are the same sort of people who complain about superheroes being less conflicted, braver, more honest, noble, selfless and heroic than they are too. They feel bad about themselves because their Superheroes are better than they are so they feel the solution is to have Superheroes who are weak, venal, ignoble, dishonest, selfish and, yeah, why the hell not, fat. Just like them.

Yeah, you’re just venting now, because that is utter bullshit. Just what are you basing this on if you are one of those fatties who feels differently? You’re setting up a bogus argument for other fatties so that you can feel better than them for feeling differently.

Here's the problem: Superheroes are SUPPOSED to be better than you.
So yeah, from where I'm standing, you're in a forest. I'm not in a tree.
Morally yes. But heroes don’t have to be prime physical specimens in order to be worthy of being looked up to.

Who says? I aspire to go to the gym all the time. I don't do it, but I want to. I'd love to look like certain comic book characters.
But you don’t do anything about it. So all the physical attributes you privilege in heroes don’t make you any better.

What you're calling for is not aspiration, but surrender.
You don't even want to WANT anything more, so you're gonna try and tear down what's there so you don't have to look at it.
No, I’m calling for a little more physical diversity amongst heroes. Let me know when you’re done playing with straw men.

I don't. I just find it annoying that there are people who, rather than trying harder, would rather everything be made easier to suit them.
And you’d rather have an ideal figure to look up to, without having to use them and inspiration to better yourself because you know they’ll always be better than you, instead of looking at looking at a less than ideal figure that reminds you of the things you hate about yourself.


No. I just find whiners annoying.
Oh yeah, and I don't tend to look for 'realism' in my capes and spandex entertainment. Verisimilitude, sure, but 'realism'. No.
I must’ve missed something because I didn’t see any whining.


Because you set up the false dichotomy.
The thread is called "Why do ALL SUPERHEROES HAVE MUSCLEY PUMPED-UP BODIES".
Psstt…in case you didn’t notice, this isn’t my thread.


First, the statement that lumps 'All Superheroes' together is false. Spider-Man, Professor X, Robin, Bouncing Boy, Jack Staff, Kick Ass, Plastic Man... all have different physiques. The Sub-Mariner has a different physique than Cable. Wonder Woman's physique is different to Sue Storm's. Daredevil is built differently to Captain America. Batman and Superman have different builds.
And of course, all this changes when different artists take over. Jim Lee draws Batman in a more muscular way than Jim Aparo did. Frank Quitely draws Superman differently to Curt Swan, which is different again to Wayne Boring, which is different again to Joe Schuster.
Steve Ditko draws a different Spider-Man than Erik Larsen.

Secondly, the build that 'All Superheroes' supposedly has is 'Muscley and Pumped-Up', a bodybuilder's build.
Batman and Spider-Man tend to be built more like Gymnasts, with longer limbs and narrower hips. Aquaman and the Sub-Mariner have swimmer's builds (naturally enough), broad shoulders, narrow hips.
Superman has the broad, deep chest and thick arms of a bodybuilder, but Green Lantern doesn't.
Flash (naturally again) looks like a runner, with a narrow frame and muscular legs.
I never even bothered addressing the idea that all heroes have muscley and pumped-up bodies.

Wow. Those goalposts certainly did move, didn't they?
Now that it's been proved that ALL superheroes DON'T have MUSCLEY, PUMPED-UP bodies... we're gonna redefine. Nice.
Why the hell should I reword your argument when you're doing it for me?

That was never my assertion. Maybe you should pay a little more attention. Your whole argument is based around the idea that either people want have heroes that they can aspire to, or they want heroes to be losers like them because it makes them feel better. ..and your solution is, what? To pander to their need for validation, despite their unwillingness to change by giving them funnybook heroes as emotionally crippled, weak and hapless as they are.
Basically, I have the shits with this whole defeatist idea that "heroes should be exactly like us so they don't hurt my feelings by making me feel bad about myself. Oh boo hoo. Superman's perfect abs make me feel like my doughy body is ugly and fat boo fucking hoo. Why can't he be a big fat neurotic social inadequate like me! That'd make me feel better about being a no hoper!"
'd just much rather feel better about myself by means of getting out of the house, meeting people, hanging around with friends, having fun and talking to girls, than I would sitting in my basement with the lights out, and feeling a bit better about being a fat, self-loathing shut-in because "Hey, check it out, Spider-Man's a fat, self-loathing shut-in, too."

What I'm saying is that there are certain things I look for in comic book superheroes and validation of my own weaknesses isn't one of them.
When I read about heroes, especially superheroes, I don't need them to be like me.
I'm sick of this whole "I want my heroes to be something that makes me feel good about being a neurotic, self-doubting bum" thing. I want my heroes to be something to aspire towards.

Honestly, these folks don't need pandering to.
They need to get the hell out of their parents' basement and, if I can quote William Shatner here (and I think I can), they need to GET A LIFE!

That was all you.



No you weren't. You were using the English language. Incorrectly.
You were making up definitions to suit your own purposes. You were repurposing language to your own aims. Doubleplus ungood of you, citizen.

I wasn’t repurposing anything. I’m describing a concept that has been addressed by numerous literary scholars and relating it to comic book medium. I don't understand why you'd immediately look to a dictionary when I'm talking about a concept not a definition. Read some of the comics from the 1940’s and 50’s, and compare them to comics now. You don’t think the heroes seem more ordinary?