Do Marvel fans accept diversity better than DC fans?

[babybro]

Now im pretty sure the outcome will be slightly biased because we are on a MU board but i started leaning into this belief since getting into comics not too long ago. Now of course there are bad apples everywhere . it just seems that the acceptance level is much larger with MU fans.
The main aspect i see this in is the JLA which currently has 4 members on the team that are black. The remarks given were appalling. with a fan calling it the politically correct league. (part 2 next)

[Shellhead]

JSA also has 4 team members that are black, plus several other minorities are represented, though not all are based on race. Compared to that, Marvel looks very light on diversity in their team books. Since JLA and JSA are two of DC's best-selling books right now, I'm guessing that you are over-reacting to a few online comments.

[babybro]

Much of the comments as to why people dislike the current JLA is because they force diversity down their throats. and the DC boards, my god, they rival republicans with the most racist remarks ive seen. its so bad that people often refer the JLA as the Just-Us League as fans only seem to want white people on DC primier team. And the new JLA with is all white. Was there any hassle when luke cage became leader of the avengers? And what do you think on this matter?

[NickGuy]

marvel fans and comic fans are as equally reverent to the characters, which frankly i find disturbing.

[XPac]

Depends how deep you wanna look.

On the surface, DC is 90% Superman and Batman. So no, you don't get more diversity because DC doens't really bother, so no. I think marvel is better at promoting more people in general... colored or otherwise.

But if you're digging deeper and looking at all various heroes of color, I imagine both companies are about even.

[Umbra]

Right now, DC looks like they are better.

Look at the MA. Look at the X-men (main team), nearly every other.

So not really.

[Shellhead]

Much of the comments as to why people dislike the current JLA is because they force diversity down their throats. and the DC boards, my god, they rival republicans with the most racist remarks ive seen. its so bad that people often refer the JLA as the Just-Us League as fans only seem to want white people on DC primier team. And the new JLA with is all white. Was there any hassle when luke cage became leader of the avengers? And what do you think on this matter?

This is the only comic book board that I read and post at, and that's because CBR has great moderators. The quality of the moderators can have a huge impact on the quality of the site, because without good moderation, the tone of the discussions is dragged down to the lowest common denominator: racist, sexist, obscene, stupid or just plain rude. If the DC boards are attracting a lot of racist remarks, I blame the mods.

Besides, I feel that the same people are buying and reading both DC and Marvel, except for the younger readers, who haven't yet learned the importance of a good creative team. Those younger readers tend to slavishly follow their favorite characters, no matter how good or bad the comics get. Eventually, those readers wise up and notice that a bad artist can make their character look silly or lame, and a bad writer can do even worse things.

After that realization sinks in, it's only a matter of time before the maturing reader figures the rest out, that a great creative team can make great comics using any characters. And more importantly, they can do it for any company, not just DC or Marvel. In fact, sooner or later, most of the top writers and artists end up working at both Marvel and DC, though not usually at the same time.

[babybro]

Im not talking about team wise because in that I also agree. especially with the introduction the milestone characters, static joining the team titans, DC themselves are leading the charge IMO. But the fan responses has been completely different. As mention in my previous post. ive only seen a little response with JSA buts that because the team is so huge. Its close to 30 members i believe. the JLA only has 15 so its alot more noticeable. but how is asking a question overreacting?

[amazoniansrule]

DC fans are used to tall/anglo saxon. Stuff the Fuhrer would be proud of, Marvel was born out of the civil rights era. So diversity is at it's nature; The best way you can tell DC has trouble with diversity is that at most comicbook conventions. You will hear at least one question from a DC audience about why DCU is very lilly white.

[XPac]

Much of the comments as to why people dislike the current JLA is because they force diversity down their throats. and the DC boards, my god, they rival republicans with the most racist remarks ive seen. its so bad that people often refer the JLA as the Just-Us League as fans only seem to want white people on DC primier team. And the new JLA with is all white. Was there any hassle when luke cage became leader of the avengers? And what do you think on this matter?

I think there were some complaints about Cage leading the Avengers, but I don't think they were race related. I think some view Cage as Bendis "pet" character... his skin color was irrelavent.

But the real difference there is that Cage is written by a white guy, so the race card isn't likely to pop up. Though I suppose of the NA began slowly becoming a team of jews, it might.

[Greg Anderson]

I actually was pissed of when McDuffie took over JLA and people posted about how he was forcing black characters down people's throats. What the hell? First off, from what I remember, it was the editors who told McDuffie who to put on the book. And if anything, us black folks should be the ones pissed off of white characters always being pushed down our throats in every darn team that has no diversity. In the end, it may all depend on who's writing. If it's a black person writing a black character, they obviously have an agenda. :rolleyes:

[babybro]

Depends how deep you wanna look.

But if you're digging deeper and looking at all various heroes of color, I imagine both companies are about even.

but thats not DC fault but the fans. For example, starting JLA 31, supes, bat, and ww will be off the team and the amount complaining at the DC boards is sky high. Dan Didio definitely wants to do big things outside the trinity but the fans are against him.

[babybro]

This is the only comic book board that I read and post at, and that's because CBR has great moderators. If the DC boards are attracting a lot of racist remarks, I blame the mods. excellent point i remeber when JLA came out and introduce shadow cabinet, some comments were made here but was deleted quickly. Even though you might get some stranded comments from time to time.

[americocaine]

I think its mostly hit or miss at the moment with them gathering whatever characters they've amassed over the years and making go wherever they want to. As far as brand new minority characters currently starring in their own solo ongoing titles, there certainly haven't been many as of late.

[Greg Anderson]

I think its mostly hit or miss at the moment with them gathering whatever characters they've amassed over the years and making go wherever they want to. As far as brand new minority characters currently starring in their own solo ongoing titles, there certainly haven't been many as of late.

Most new characters, be them minority or not, while hardly ever survive now. People aren't really to check them out. Best thing is to put them on a team and build them up through there.

[Umbra]

I actually was pissed of when McDuffie took over JLA and people posted about how he was forcing black characters down people's throats. What the hell? First off, from what I remember, it was the editors who told McDuffie who to put on the book. And if anything, us black folks should be the ones pissed off of white characters always being pushed down our throats in every darn team that has no diversity. In the end, it may all depend on who's writing. If it's a black person writing a black character, they obviously have an agenda. :rolleyes:


Quoted for truth.

[XPac]

but thats not DC fault but the fans. For example, starting JLA 31, supes, bat, and ww will be off the team and the amount complaining at the DC boards is sky high. Dan Didio definitely wants to do big things outside the trinity but the fans are against him.

Fans always complain about change... doesn't mean they don't buy a book if it's still good.

From the Kooky Quartet to the All New All Different X-Men to Bendis Disassembled, we've seen time and time again that change can work.

[paulski]

2 threads about the same silly topic? Man, I'm starting to wonder who has the problem here...

[SquidSquod]

There's no difference of racial preferences between Marvel & DC.

[Omega Alpha]

JLA has 4 black members, sure, but come on, each DC teaem has 92526268 members each, while Marvel's first superhero team is composed only of 4.

[StoneGold]

I actually was pissed of when McDuffie took over JLA and people posted about how he was forcing black characters down people's throats. What the hell? First off, from what I remember, it was the editors who told McDuffie who to put on the book. And if anything, us black folks should be the ones pissed off of white characters always being pushed down our throats in every darn team that has no diversity. In the end, it may all depend on who's writing. If it's a black person writing a black character, they obviously have an agenda. :rolleyes:

Yes, but you're forgetting, white people are the default.

[Flâneur]

Im not talking about team wise because in that I also agree. especially with the introduction the milestone characters, static joining the team titans, DC themselves are leading the charge IMO. But the fan responses has been completely different. As mention in my previous post. ive only seen a little response with JSA buts that because the team is so huge. Its close to 30 members i believe. the JLA only has 15 so its alot more noticeable. but how is asking a question overreacting?

Well, the difference in the boards is partly the moderation and partly because of YABS. Most of the minority posters who are DC fans mostly post in YABS (which is to expected with the WiR thing, I guess), I've noticed, so it's less of a fan thing than a board traffic thing. The difference in the Marvel boards is that the MU fans are staying in the Marvel boards with their spam; X-boards with its massive gay male contingent, for example, and the influx of HEF posters in the MU board.

[RolandJP]

This is the only comic book board that I read and post at, and that's because CBR has great moderators. The quality of the moderators can have a huge impact on the quality of the site, because without good moderation, the tone of the discussions is dragged down to the lowest common denominator: racist, sexist, obscene, stupid or just plain rude. If the DC boards are attracting a lot of racist remarks, I blame the mods..


I agree with this. CBR has the best Mods. And I think both Marvel and DC have made huge strides in attracting new readers. Black, White, Latino, Asian, Native, Gay, Straight, Young and Old. ( forgive me if I missed anyone)


Ive run into my share of racists on other boards, and to be honest it made jaded. So when i joined CBR I had a huge chip on my shoulder. And Now I see some like the old teams and they dont want change, not because of racism but because of familiararity.

But I wont deny that there are others who see minority characters as second class PC add-ons no matter how well written or concieved.

[Flâneur]

I agree with this. CBR has the best Mods. And I think both Marvel and DC have made huge strides in attracting new readers. Black, White, Latino, Asian, Native, Gay, Straight, Young and Old. ( forgive me if I missed anyone)

Your omissions are unacceptable, Excelsior. You have been sentenced.

[TROUBLEZ]

I accept change in Marvel, except for the Goblin/Gwen retcon boink and the satanic marriage erase.
Other than that, I can deal with it.
DC on the other hand has more iconic characters that don't work as well with startling change.
DC should try being DC and Marvel just be Marvel. I don't like all the seriousness in DC and I don't like the Superman archetypes in Marvel.

[RolandJP]

Your omissions are unacceptable, Excelsior. You have been sentenced.

You Aussie you!!

:biggrin: :biggrin:

[Tobias March]

Now im pretty sure the outcome will be slightly biased because we are on a MU board but i started leaning into this belief since getting into comics not too long ago. Now of course there are bad apples everywhere . it just seems that the acceptance level is much larger with MU fans.
The main aspect i see this in is the JLA which currently has 4 members on the team that are black. The remarks given were appalling. with a fan calling it the politically correct league. (part 2 next)

To be honest DC have stronger gay characters than Marvel. These days I feel the House of Ideas makes very superficial gestures towards 'diversity' (Christ the Rawhide book alone....whereas DC's Sandman had adult gay relationships depicted in an honest light over ten years previous?)

Whereas Marvel had this (http://images.comicbookresources.com/news/hsic/2/alphaflight106_panel_sm.jpg)

Even New Frontier had the wonderful John Henry subplot, which I thought well executed and heart-breaking.

This 'pc Justice League' comment I have seen more than once and it disturbs me. I consider that evidence more of a greater cultural problem (any racial representation is automatically 'PC', whereas the normal status quo - all white super-teams - are implied to be somehow 'under threat. Thereby proving that political correctness itself is merely inverted racism that refuses to treat the problem).

[TradePaperbackTraitor]

I think DC feels a little more 'mighty white' because most of its main characters were created from the 60's and before. Just a product of the times.

I just hope more black heroes can be created who didn't start in Africa (Storm, Black Panther) or are ghetto superheroes like Luke Cage or Black Lightning. It's okay to create an average black dude like John Stewart who is simply... gasp... an architect. :eek:

It feels like hispanic characters get the shaft more than any race, especially considering the actual demographics of the United States and that being the biggest 'minority.'

[TROUBLEZ]

I just hope more black heroes can be created who didn't start in Africa (Storm, Black Panther) or are ghetto superheroes like Luke Cage or Black Lightning. It's okay to create an average black dude like John Stewart who is simply... gasp... an architect. :eek:

It feels like hispanic characters get the shaft more than any race, especially considering the actual demographics of the United States and that being the biggest 'minority.'

I find it odd that Luke Cage went from having a very flamboyant costume complete with tiara, to just an everyday, civilian outfit. The only black hero on the team and he doesn't even get a costume.

[StoneGold]

I just hope more black heroes can be created who didn't start in Africa (Storm, Black Panther) or are ghetto superheroes like Luke Cage or Black Lightning. It's okay to create an average black dude like John Stewart who is simply... gasp... an architect. :eek:

Actually, John pretty much hit all the Angry Black Man beats when he was first created.

[Greg Anderson]

I find it odd that Luke Cage went from having a very flamboyant costume complete with tiara, to just an everyday, civilian outfit. The only black hero on the team and he doesn't even get a costume.

I actually love that about him. :redface:

[Greg Anderson]

I find it odd that Luke Cage went from having a very flamboyant costume complete with tiara, to just an everyday, civilian outfit. The only black hero on the team and he doesn't even get a costume.

I actually love that about him. :redface:

[James Conniff]

Much of the comments as to why people dislike the current JLA is because they force diversity down their throats. and the DC boards, my god, they rival republicans with the most racist remarks ive seen. its so bad that people often refer the JLA as the Just-Us League as fans only seem to want white people on DC primier team. And the new JLA with is all white. Was there any hassle when luke cage became leader of the avengers? And what do you think on this matter?

How Many Times does a man have to say it? Congorilla is not White. :biggrin:

I had no idea anyone had been saying things like that about the JLA line up, I think the line up is just fine, a good mix of characters; Black Lightening, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman (at least until FC is over), Jon Stewart, Black Canary...its a good team. I also happen to think that the Justice League Line up Robinson has looks great too. Seriously, Starman Cap Marv Jr., Hal and Ollie, Supergirl and Batwoman? And an Atom for good measure. That's a pretty damn cool team.

[James Conniff]

I find it odd that Luke Cage went from having a very flamboyant costume complete with tiara, to just an everyday, civilian outfit. The only black hero on the team and he doesn't even get a costume.

That's just 'cause Cage's classic costume is too cheesy to have him wear today. I like him in street clothes but if someone had a good costume design I'd be all for it.

[hunter_peterson]

I don't get it. Skin color is irrelevant. Why does it matter what ratio of skin color is present in either company? So long as the characters are good I don't care what flavor they come in. (By flavor I mean any color, creed or orientation.)

Not to say inter-flavor relations aren't entertaining and full of story potential. I think the X-Men has proven that.

[XPac]

I don't get it. Skin color is irrelevant. Why does it matter what ratio of skin color is present in either company? So long as the characters are good I don't care what flavor they come in. (By flavor I mean any color, creed or orientation.)

Not to say inter-flavor relations aren't entertaining and full of story potential. I think the X-Men has proven that.

While I don't think comics need any sort of affirmative action policies, I wouldn't exactly say encouraging diversity is irrelavent either.

For one thing, it's simply more accurate. We do live in a multi-cultural world (especially if your stories largely take place in NY). It just makes sense for comics and other media to reflect that. It doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be a forced thing. It doesn't have to be a big production either. It's simply a matter of deciding that the next time you bust out with a new character, consider making them japanesse or latino or native american.

Also, I think having characters of different creeds and orientations has the potential to attract people of that creed and orientation, and allow them to better relate to them. Ultimately a well written character will do that regardless of their skin color, and that's REALLY the important thing. But it potentially helps, and in the least it certainly doesn't hurt.

[rage6839]

I like the fact McDuffie takes time to answer questions and squash the ridiculous rumors/accusations. The crazies thought he was going to have the Milestone characters wipe the floor with the League but it was quite the opposite. Heck, they were ready to blame him for the big three leaving but if they read the solo titles, then it would be obvious that is not the case. You should have read the thread about an all black Avengers team. That was some fun reading. :evilsmile:

[XPac]

I like the fact McDuffie takes time to answer questions and squash the ridiculous rumors/accusations. The crazies thought he was going to have the Milestone characters wipe the floor with the League but it was quite the opposite. Heck, they were ready to blame him for the big three leaving but if they read the solo titles, then it would be obvious that is not the case. You should have read the thread about an all black Avengers team. That was some fun reading. :evilsmile:

I think a reason people made a big deal out of McDuffie adding several african american members to the league is because it comes off looking like he had an agenda. Not saying he necessarily did.... but because hes an african american writer it can look that way.

Had he not been black, it wouldn't have been an issue. Or if the new additions were more diverse... if they had latino or native american or asian members in addition to african american ones, again it probably wouldn't have been a racial issue. People STILL might have complained, since people tend to do that when main characters leave a book (see Bendis Disassembled), but it probably wouldn't have been race centric.

[Shellhead]

In answer to the question posed by the title of this thread...

Judging by the CBR forums, Marvel fans are younger, and more likely to obsess over racial diversity in an immature manner. Racism will continue until every human being finally acknowledges the sheer irrelevance of skin color. It doesn't tell you anything useful about a person. It's trivia. As a species, it would be nice if we could all grow up a little and move past race to more fundamental issues like war, poverty, famine, and disease.

Look at Barack Obama. Tomorrow, he will become the first African-American President of the United States. Makes me proud to be an American. But let's face it, Obama didn't get elected by talking obsessively about skin color. He got elected because he delivered a powerful message of hope and opportunity, a chance to bring us all together to work towards a better tomorrow.

[MuhollandDriver]

Hhhmmm.....interesting question. i haven't read DC as much..aside from The Sandman and other Vertigo series...but here are my thoughts...

i think things are better than they were. When i was reading in the eighties, there weren't any gay characters...open ones at least.

i know that Northstar's coming out was quite splashy and over the top at the time, but given the time period what other way was there to go?

As for gay characters today, i cannot think of any prominent ones...who are front and center. Sure, Karma and a few others have a recurring or supporting role here and there.

Actually......Anole might be the most prominent gay superhero in Marvel right now. He is the only gay male i can think of who is part of a team in an ongoing book (which will be cancelled, nonetheless.) How funny is that! If Young Avengers ever gets going again, i know that title would go to Wiccan and Hulkling. However, Anole has potential for a lot.

Whenever threads like "Who should this gay character date?" come up...the choices show how few gay characters there are. There really isn't even a choice...just slap on the five or so other gay characters in the universe!

Then again....i am glad the heavy-handed approach with all characters is a thing of the past...well usually it is. That..i am grateful for.

By no means are writers required to fill a certain minority quotient.

That being said....if a gay male character truly got a chance to shine....save the day...sometimes lose the day....find love....live life....truly be as front and center as heterosexual characters are....i would be one happy camper. That has not happened yet. Hopefully it will.

It might take a good gay writer to do that. Who knows. While some heterosexual authors have good intentions, many shoot themselves in the foot. Mike Carey wrote Northstar and Anole in his comics as recurring characters, but then I read him putting subtle homophobic jokes in his series. It is off-putting.

Now, as far as racial minorities...Luke Cage is controversial with some...but i have really liked what i have read. i think he is a great fit on New Avengers....when i think of that team...i often think of him or Spider Woman.

In the X-World....Bishop and Prodigy are pretty fleshed out characters. Of course, Storm is quite iconic. Many consider her white hair and blue eyes to be insulting....but i don't think there should be traits to define what black is....just like with any identity. Her heritage is enough.

Black Panther has his own series....written by an african-american author..i believe.

Wow...we gay people are behind other minorities in Marvel!

Has there ever been a gay Avenger? Those teams just seem very heterosexual..not that anythings wrong with that ;). i don't even know many gay readers who read Avengers titles besides Young Avengers. Hah! It might feel like going to yet another heterosexual wedding for some of us.

Want to know a group that i feel has really been diminished in Marvel these days?

Women.

Yep. Read the X-Comics for an example. While i know it is a sad reality that solo comics featuring women might not sell as well, that shouldn't detract with how they are portrayed in group comics.

i know that comic readers have more men....nonetheless, women are half the population..if not slightly more. Watching the X-Men....a team known for having women as its emotional core, dwindle into a boys club (Cyclops, Beast, Wolverine, etcetc) with Emma as the only prominent member, is sad. Even worse..Emma often plays a girlfriend role...only in relation to Cyclops...or a conniving vamp..which is a tired stereotype.

Sometimes..i fear that writers cannot get past their own fanboyisms to really write a female character from her perspective.

[rage6839]

I think a reason people made a big deal out of McDuffie adding several african american members to the league is because it comes off looking like he had an agenda. Not saying he necessarily did.... but because hes an african american writer it can look that way.

Had he not been black, it wouldn't have been an issue. Or if the new additions were more diverse... if they had latino or native american or asian members in addition to african american ones, again it probably wouldn't have been a racial issue. People STILL might have complained, since people tend to do that when main characters leave a book (see Bendis Disassembled), but it probably wouldn't have been race centric.

But they jumped to the assumption. Mighty Avengers is all white but most people have no problem with the book because the characters worked well and noone assumed hidden agenda. I liked that McDuffie went to the board and explained editorial had a hand in some of the roster moves. But even if that had not been the case, it has been stated that color should not matter as long as the story is well written. JLA is an excellent book

[XPac]

But they jumped to the assumption. Mighty Avengers is all white but most people have no problem with the book because the characters worked well and noone assumed hidden agenda. I liked that McDuffie went to the board and explained editorial had a hand in some of the roster moves. But even if that had not been the case, it has been stated that color should not matter as long as the story is well written. JLA is an excellent book

It's different with white characters, purely because the vast majority of characters are white. That said... if Bendis after New Avengers had created a new time that was half composed of jewish characters, I suspect people would begin to wonder if he didn't have some sort of agenda too.

I DO agree... assuming things like this is making an assumption, and it's not entirely fair. But it's also pretty much expected. Had the characters of color not all been african american, or had he himself not been african american, the racial issues probably would have went under the radar.

But I do agree that story is all that matters. So far, I'm honestly not thrilled with his JLA run but that's in large part because it seems like cross over central. It's not his fault at all... but for me personally, it hurts the book.

[Omega Alpha]

In answer to the question posed by the title of this thread...

Judging by the CBR forums, Marvel fans are younger, and more likely to obsess over racial diversity in an immature manner. Racism will continue until every human being finally acknowledges the sheer irrelevance of skin color. It doesn't tell you anything useful about a person. It's trivia. As a species, it would be nice if we could all grow up a little and move past race to more fundamental issues like war, poverty, famine, and disease.


Listen to the man!

[Evil-Spidey]

Why would balck or white even matter in a universe that's full of super powered people, mutants, gods, aliens and various other creatures? If this was the real world noone would look at those minor details anymore and racist groups would be against all those diffrent kind of creatures i mentioned above.

[XPac]

Why would balck or white even matter in a universe that's full of super powered people, mutants, gods, aliens and various other creatures? If this was the real world noone would look at those minor details anymore and racist groups would be against all those diffrent kind of creatures i mentioned above.

It SHOULDN'T matter... but it still kinda does, at least in the MU.

We've seen the government implmement affirmative action on the Avengers by forcing them to take members of color. And we've likewise seen people protest the Avengers for harboring mutants. I believe this was highlight in Busieks Avengers run.

It's silly and stupid... but that's what happens in a world where they nominate the Green Goblin to be the most powerful man in the planet.

[Evil-Spidey]

I really dislike what they are doing with the regular people in the mu. They are racist against mutants but not against the FantasticFour or Avengers like they would care if they were born like that or got their powers later, that doesn't make sense. Then they hate Spider-Man because they think he is a bad guy even though he saves people every freakin day but then have proven murders do 1 good thing and they celebrate them like there's no tommorrow.

[babybro]

In answer to the question posed by the title of this thread...

Judging by the CBR forums, Marvel fans are younger, and more likely to obsess over racial diversity in an immature manner. Racism will continue until every human being finally acknowledges the sheer irrelevance of skin color. It doesn't tell you anything useful about a person. It's trivia. As a species, it would be nice if we could all grow up a little and move past race to more fundamental issues like war, poverty, famine, and disease.

Look at Barack Obama. Tomorrow, he will become the first African-American President of the United States. Makes me proud to be an American. But let's face it, Obama didn't get elected by talking obsessively about skin color. He got elected because he delivered a powerful message of hope and opportunity, a chance to bring us all together to work towards a better tomorrow.

I won't say obsess about it, I just think they call it like they see it. The younger fans isn't as easily influence by white privilege that plagues our society, as every new generation comes, the more diversity will be encourage as it will more closely represent exactly how our society is. White privilege is a fabric heavily enriched in older society, and perhaps that would be why DC are so use to having white-only superheroes.

But as Marvel continues to pull more newer generation readers into the mix, the more diversity will be requested and encourage.

[Omega Alpha]

I really dislike what they are doing with the regular people in the mu. They are racist against mutants but not against the FantasticFour or Avengers like they would care if they were born like that or got their powers later, that doesn't make sense..

This has been discussed to that, but it makes all the sense in the world.

[Blade X]

Much of the comments as to why people dislike the current JLA is because they force diversity down their throats. and the DC boards, my god, they rival republicans with the most racist remarks ive seen. its so bad that people often refer the JLA as the Just-Us League as fans only seem to want white people on DC primier team. And the new JLA with is all white. Was there any hassle when luke cage became leader of the avengers? And what do you think on this matter?

First of all, I think it's unfair of you to equate the racists remarks and/or attitudes of the posters on the DC boards with Republicans. Being a Republican DOES NOT mean that person is a racist. Secondly, there are also racists Democrats out there. Hell, I'm willing to bet that MOST of the people complaining about the diversity on the JLA team are self proclaimed enlightened liberal democrats.

As for your original question, I think that there is an EQUALLY amount of DC and Marvel fans who are resistant to racial diversity in the books they read. Remember, the same people reading DC comics are most likely the same people reading Marvel comics. Hell, just go to the thread I started about making the MIGHTY AVENGERS team more diverse to see all of the fans complaining about forced tokenism.

[whiteshark]

Then they hate Spider-Man because they think he is a bad guy even though he saves people every freakin day but then have proven murders do 1 good thing and they celebrate them like there's no tommorrow.

People that hate Spider-Man in the stories are usually people that read the Daily Bugle newspaper.:biggrin:
That had be seen many times in the stories.
Usually most of the people besides those have very respect for Spider-Man or seem Spider-Man with mistrust.
But is not the case that most people hate Spider-Man in the stories.

[XPac]

I really dislike what they are doing with the regular people in the mu. They are racist against mutants but not against the FantasticFour or Avengers like they would care if they were born like that or got their powers later, that doesn't make sense. Then they hate Spider-Man because they think he is a bad guy even though he saves people every freakin day but then have proven murders do 1 good thing and they celebrate them like there's no tommorrow.

Thank goodness for Civil War.

It made the public just as fearful of the non mutant heroes as they are the X people. They brutally attacked and hospitalized the human torch for Stamford (something he obviously had nothing to do with).

The public is at least equal opportunity haters now.

[Sandy Hausler]

But the real difference there is that Cage is written by a white guy, so the race card isn't likely to pop up. Though I suppose of the NA began slowly becoming a team of jews, it might.

I'd like to see that. But I think Moon Knight is the only Jewish Avenger that I can think of, off the top of my head. I guess they could recruit Shadowcat and Doc Sampson.

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

Has there ever been a gay Avenger? Those teams just seem very heterosexual..not that anythings wrong with that ;). i don't even know many gay readers who read Avengers titles besides Young Avengers. Hah! It might feel like going to yet another heterosexual wedding for some of us.

Living Lightning who was a member of the West Coast Avengers was revealed to be gay in an issue of Great Lakes Avengers, though, to my knowledge, it's never been mentioned again (though, since I have cut back on my Marvel Comics since (and because of) Civil Wars, I might have missded something. At any rate, he is, at best, a minor Avenger.)

Sandy Hausler

[StoneGold]

I'd like to see that. But I think Moon Knight is the only Jewish Avenger that I can think of, off the top of my head. I guess they could recruit Shadowcat and Doc Sampson.

Sandy Hausler

Depends on whether or not you want to count Thing as an Avenger. He didn't, but then he's also shown up at a couple of the "everyone into the pool" events over the years.

And there's Justice. Which in theory could count double with Vance Astro, but that just gets confusing.

[RolandJP]

Why would balck or white even matter in a universe that's full of super powered people, mutants, gods, aliens and various other creatures? If this was the real world noone would look at those minor details anymore and racist groups would be against all those diffrent kind of creatures i mentioned above.

Using top caliber athletes as our world's closest example or analogy for Minority, Gay or Women Superheroes. Race, Sex, gender still play a factor in how people refer to one another. Ask the Rutger's woman basketball team, Ellen DeGeneres, Tiger Woods, Jet li, Air Jordan, Guillermo Diaz, Amanda Bearse, or Lewis Hamilton.

Why is it disingenuous to show the reality of dealing with race?
\
And Blue Zulu thanks for the Hudlin Entertainment link.

[XPac]

Using top caliber athletes as this worlds closest example or analogy for a Superhero. Race still plays a factor. Ask the Rutger's woman basketball team, Tiger Woods, Air Jordan, or Lewis Hamilton.

Why is it disingenuous to show the reality of dealing with race?
\
And Blue Zulu thanks for the Hudlin Entertainment link.

Does race still factor into sports in this context though?

Do people complain when there are too many black guys in a sports team?

[RolandJP]

Does race still factor into sports in this context though?

Do people complain when there are too many black guys in a sports team?


Have you ever been to Boston Garden?? I have.

[rage6839]

Have you ever been to Boston Garden?? I have.

Man I heard some things about the Garden,especially during the 80's. I hated the Lakers as much as I hated the Celtics but then I heard what was being spewed, I pulled for Showtime whenever the Sixers were not in the Finals. Considering Robert Parish helped win them a championship or 2, I don't know how you could say some of those things about the Lakers and Philly players. But , not reserved to basketball. Bonds spoke of playing at Fenway and it was about the same.

Although, superheroes are fictitious, they still have human beings under the mask for most of them. I know people hate change but no one is trying to. If minorities can enjoy a well-written story with all white, the opposite should be the same.

[Herr Mike]

I don't think fans are less tolerant, it's just that DC doesn't really have any good minority characters. I have a hard time thinking of an original minority DC character. They are all just white guys turned into black guys. Or black girls, or hispanics. Whatever.

So, if you want to "diversify" the JLA, you are forced to use dull, derivative characters and no one wants to see that. Marvel has a much better pool of minorities. Everyone loves Luke Cage, he's a well developed character that his own identity. Same with Black Panther, Storm, War Machine, etc.

My expertise is Marvel so I may be wrong, however. Still, DC really seems to not have a whole lot of interesting characters to fill a team with, minority or not.

[Umbra]

. If minorities can enjoy a well-written story with all white, the opposite should be the same.

Well Said......

[XPac]

Have you ever been to Boston Garden?? I have.

I would assume if people genuinely have problems with large numbers of african americans in sports teams, it would be happening in more than the Boston Garden though.

Maybe I'm just being naive here... but I honestly think it's reasonably accepted that major sports teams have a good number of african american players.

[StoneGold]

Although, superheroes are fictitious, they still have human beings under the mask for most of them. I know people hate change but no one is trying to. If minorities can enjoy a well-written story with all white, the opposite should be the same.

Well written is the key word here though. And sadly, for one reason or another, that doesn't tend to happen that often.

Although part of the problem, of the two black writers getting regular work at Marvel (unless there's a third I don't know about), Hudlin and Greivoux, I haven't been that big a fan of their work. I can at least get my problem's with Greivoux - he writes like an indie superhero comics writer from the 90s, which is what he was - whereas Hudlin's just been all over the map.

And beyond there, the problem is that for white people, the default setting is white people. Unless you've actually been tasked with writing a Storm mini, or you're Jason Aaron, it's just what is. And even then, it's not like there's been any black people of significance in Ghost Rider.

Although I guess he has instituted the GR Rainbow Coalition, but that's another story.

[StoneGold]

I would assume if people genuinely have problems with large numbers of african americans in sports teams, it would be happening in more than the Boston Garden though.


Listen to sports talk radio after random young black male athlete goes on some kind of criminal spree.

[Shellhead]

It seems like only yesterday that we had our previous angry young Marvel fan who was obsessed with race, though it was probably months ago.

[Umbra]

King Black Panther and Queen Storm (T'challa) (Leaders- Financier)


Blue Marvel (Field Leader)
Monica Rambeau (Field Leader)

Shola Inkosi
Cecilia Reyes
American Eagle
Puma
Living Lightning
Shang-Chi
Junta
Josiah X
Kasper Cole
Queen Divine Justice
Sunfire

Would you read a book with these characters as a team?

[4sake]

King Black Panther and Queen Storm (T'challa) (Leaders- Financier)


Blue Marvel (Field Leader)
Monica Rambeau (Field Leader)

Shola Inkosi
Cecilia Reyes
American Eagle
Puma
Living Lightning
Shang-Chi
Junta
Josiah X
Kasper Cole
Queen Divine Justice
Sunfire

Would you read a book with these characters as a team?

YES !!!!!!!!!!!

[Freakzeek]

King Black Panther and Queen Storm (T'challa) (Leaders- Financier)


Blue Marvel (Field Leader)
Monica Rambeau (Field Leader)

Shola Inkosi
Cecilia Reyes
American Eagle
Puma
Living Lightning
Shang-Chi
Junta
Josiah X
Kasper Cole
Queen Divine Justice
Sunfire

Would you read a book with these characters as a team?

Hell YES!!!:smile: :biggrin:

[babybro]

First of all, I think it's unfair of you to equate the racists remarks and/or attitudes of the posters on the DC boards with Republicans. Being a Republican DOES NOT mean that person is a racist. Secondly, there are also racists Democrats out there. Hell, I'm willing to bet that MOST of the people complaining about the diversity on the JLA team are self proclaimed enlightened liberal democrats.

As for your original question, I think that there is an EQUALLY amount of DC and Marvel fans who are resistant to racial diversity in the books they read. Remember, the same people reading DC comics are most likely the same people reading Marvel comics. Hell, just go to the thread I started about making the MIGHTY AVENGERS team more diverse to see all of the fans complaining about forced tokenism.

To clarify, I'm not referring to all republicans, of course all republicans are not racist just like all democrats. But definitely the most vicious, vile, cruel, malicious words I have ever witness both personally and through television has been by republicans. So again, when I made statement, it was directed towards those republicans, not all republican.

As for your thread, I had no idea about that, but than again, I try to stay away from the mighty avengers with a ten foot pole, I will go look at the thread. Thanks.

[StoneGold]

Would you read a book with these characters as a team?

If the writing and art were any good, sure. Although the team you've put up is a little large and unwieldly for most writers to deal with. For that matter, other than they aren't white, there's not a lot of reason for them to hang out. Really, I don't see Storm having anything to do with Junta.

That said, I did read The Crew. But that's because it had a good writer and artist more than because it did or didn't mostly consist of minority characters.

[Omega Alpha]

King Black Panther and Queen Storm (T'challa) (Leaders- Financier)


Blue Marvel (Field Leader)
Monica Rambeau (Field Leader)

Shola Inkosi
Cecilia Reyes
American Eagle
Puma
Living Lightning
Shang-Chi
Junta
Josiah X
Kasper Cole
Queen Divine Justice
Sunfire

Would you read a book with these characters as a team?

I wouldn't, for a few reasons:

1) You have 15 people on the team, counting Storm and Black Panther, that's just too much, IMO. One of the reasons why I stopped following JSA was because they begun with 12 members or so and added a new one almost every issue.

2) Putting together all these characters together just because they are "minorities" (in the US, anyway) it's not really different than picking, say, Thor, Magik, Captain Britain, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Ms. Marvel and Henry Pym and make it the "Aryan squad" or whatever. In both cases, you're throwing together a bunch of people that have no reason to be together on a team just because of the color of their skins (or hair). Heck, your team even has people like Sunfire, who was last seen in the Marauders.

Mind you, a team of heroes that just happens to be formed in it's majority (or entirely) by non-whites is something I could read for sure. But to assemble a team for this specific reason, certainly not.

[babybro]

I wouldn't, for a few reasons:

1) You have 15 people on the team, counting Storm and Black Panther, that's just too much, IMO. One of the reasons why I stopped following JSA was because they begun with 12 members or so and added a new one almost every issue.

2) Putting together all these characters together just because they are "minorities" (in the US, anyway) it's not really different than picking, say, Thor, Magik, Captain Britain, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Ms. Marvel and Henry Pym and make it the "Aryan squad" or whatever. In both cases, you're throwing together a bunch of people that have no reason to be together on a team just because of the color of their skins (or hair). Heck, your team even has people like Sunfire, who was last seen in the Marauders.

Mind you, a team of heroes that just happens to be formed in it's majority (or entirely) by non-whites is something I could read for sure. But to assemble a team for this specific reason, certainly not.

Your 2nd reason smacks slab into the heavily enwrapped white privileged that is established in our society, due to the fact that far more than the majority of comic book characters are white, it's going to "appear" natural that a group of superheroes together "just so happen to be white." Yet no one takes notice to the fact thatt the level of white superheroes to non-white superheroes is heavily unnatural and almost racist in nature. Especially in comparison to our racial demographics. We aren't the USSR, comics happen within the US on majority of occasions and yet the superheroes truly do not reflect that. So why people point the "unnatural" finger, perhaps you should point it at the fact that over 90% of comic book characters are white.

[Freakzeek]

Your 2nd reason smacks slab into the heavily enwrapped white privileged that is established in our society, due to the fact that far more than the majority of comic book characters are white, it's going to "appear" natural that a group of superheroes together "just so happen to be white." Yet no one takes notice to the fact thatt the level of white superheroes to non-white superheroes is heavily unnatural and almost racist in nature. Especially in comparison to our racial demographics. We aren't the USSR, comics happen within the US on majority of occasions and yet the superheroes truly do not reflect that. So why people point the "unnatural" finger, perhaps you should point it at the fact that over 90% of comic book characters are white. I completely agree, a fine point indeed !

[StoneGold]

Your 2nd reason smacks slab into the heavily enwrapped white privileged that is established in our society, due to the fact that far more than the majority of comic book characters are white, it's going to "appear" natural that a group of superheroes together "just so happen to be white." Yet no one takes notice to the fact thatt the level of white superheroes to non-white superheroes is heavily unnatural and almost racist in nature. Especially in comparison to our racial demographics. We aren't the USSR, comics happen within the US on majority of occasions and yet the superheroes truly do not reflect that. So why people point the "unnatural" finger, perhaps you should point it at the fact that over 90% of comic book characters are white.

Yes, but because much like in pornography, white people is the default setting.

Go into a porno shop, see if you can find a section labeled WHITE. But I'm guessing there's a better chance you can find everything else a little better labeled.


See also: 99% of entertainment made in the US.

[Omega Alpha]

Your 2nd reason smacks slab into the heavily enwrapped white privileged that is established in our society, due to the fact that far more than the majority of comic book characters are white, it's going to "appear" natural that a group of superheroes together "just so happen to be white." Yet no one takes notice to the fact thatt the level of white superheroes to non-white superheroes is heavily unnatural and almost racist in nature. Especially in comparison to our racial demographics. We aren't the USSR, comics happen within the US on majority of occasions and yet the superheroes truly do not reflect that. So why people point the "unnatural" finger, perhaps you should point it at the fact that over 90% of comic book characters are white.

OK, it would be much easier to just use this smiley: :rolleyes: to another post implying that everyone that writes comics, reads comics, or works for a comic company is racist and happens to be white is racist, but, OK, I'm going to answer this fine and politely:

90% of the most popular comic book characters today (perhaps more) were created either in the Gold or Silver Ages, on a time people were segregated in many American states because of the color of their skin, and racism was extremely heavy across the country (and in other places too, of course). A society like that wouldn't really allow the development of many, if any, heroes that weren't white. The Black Panther, first major black superhero, was only created in 1966, when things were beginning to get better.

After Silver Age, for several reasons, less characters managed to become as popular as the most famous and beloved of those previous eras. The only character to really reach the popularity of a Superman or Spider-Man, or close enough, was Wolverine. And the only team in which the majority of the most popular members were created after Silver Age were The X-men (and the 2nd team was built exactly to be very diverse in all aspects). And no superhero group managed to achieve the same popularity of any team created in that period (though teams like the X-men and the Teen Titans only became really popular in the 80's). If anything, what happened in the last decades was that companies realized it was better to create 356 Avengers of X-men books than to invest in a new team. As far as teams created more recently, you have The Runaways, which had 2/6 characters as non-white at the beginning, and now it has the same numbers, although with slightly more members. Young Avengers has Patriot as team leader (or had).

Add that to the fact that most characters (when they are originally from Earth, of course) are either American (created in the Golden or Silver Ages) or Europeans, and things become very disproportional.

And, in anyway, this is a fictional universe, in which characters come literally in all shapes and colors possible. To see having few popular black characters as a sign of racism is either foolish or a lame attempt to push some kind of an agenda.

[TradePaperbackTraitor]

I really dislike what they are doing with the regular people in the mu. They are racist against mutants but not against the FantasticFour or Avengers like they would care if they were born like that or got their powers later, that doesn't make sense. Then they hate Spider-Man because they think he is a bad guy even though he saves people every freakin day but then have proven murders do 1 good thing and they celebrate them like there's no tommorrow.


To some extent I agree. ANYONE with godly powers is a threat. Whether you're born with them or earned them in an accident, you're still dangerous if you decide to go rogue.

But... one issue that I thought really hit home the mutant fear was an issue of Ultimate X-Men. It was a one-shot where a kid went to school, started his normal routines, and then out of the blue, everyone he approached started turning into ashes and dying. It literally wiped out half the town as he freaked out and ran for the hills. In the end of the story, Wolverine has to meet up with him because Logan's healing prevents him from being hurt, he gives the kid a beer, and then kills him off-panel per Nick Fury's instructions. He was just too dangerous to let loose, you couldn't train him, and the damage he had already done had to be silenced or people would panic and cause an anit-mutant uproar. That single issue spelled out the mutant hate and fear more than anything I'd read in another mutant book, although who knows, it may have been a rip of a previous story in Uncanny X-Men. The random fear of unknown powers, when they will surface, who has them, and if they're controllable or not.

[gorthon616]

It seems like only yesterday that we had our previous angry young Marvel fan who was obsessed with race, though it was probably months ago.

Pretty sure it was last week.

[RolandJP]

Pretty sure it was last week.

Yeah, but now its more like going through the motions. :tongue: less Anger.

[Shellhead]

Pretty sure it was last week.

It's probably the same troll every time.

[DeadXMan]

I think it has to do that the minority heroes in the MU are built up as there own heroes for the most part and not a legacy character.
(Monica, and Patriot being the exetcution's)
Look at

Luke Cage
Black Panther
Storm
Monica
Misty
Falcon
Sunfire

[Alan2099]

2) Putting together all these characters together just because they are "minorities" (in the US, anyway) it's not really different than picking, say, Thor, Magik, Captain Britain, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Ms. Marvel and Henry Pym and make it the "Aryan squad" or whatever. In both cases, you're throwing together a bunch of people that have no reason to be together on a team just because of the color of their skins (or hair). Heck, your team even has people like Sunfire, who was last seen in the Marauders.

Actually the team that has no real reason to be together could work.

Let me pitch a quick idea here. Let's say for whatever reasons, some charity organization cntacts Ironman about being able to get some strong black role models to talk to some troubled teens. he pulls some strings, gets a group together that normally would have nothing in common. Something happens while they're talking, and a big criminal attacks. They work to stop them, and it leads duirectly into another thing, then another, and by the time they catch their breaths and relize what's going on, the media is already supporting them as some major new supergroup. So they decide to stick together for a while... and it doesn't work. A teamup was fine, but as an actual team, they're completley incompatible. However at this point with some many people counting on them and looking up to them, and maybe some charity deals or some private funding, they're kinda stuck working together.

[Thomas Uk]

Actually the team that has no real reason to be together could work.

Let me pitch a quick idea here. Let's say for whatever reasons, some charity organization cntacts Ironman about being able to get some strong black role models to talk to some troubled teens. he pulls some strings, gets a group together that normally would have nothing in common. Something happens while they're talking, and a big criminal attacks. They work to stop them, and it leads duirectly into another thing, then another, and by the time they catch their breaths and relize what's going on, the media is already supporting them as some major new supergroup. So they decide to stick together for a while... and it doesn't work. A teamup was fine, but as an actual team, they're completley incompatible. However at this point with some many people counting on them and looking up to them, and maybe some charity deals or some private funding, they're kinda stuck working together.

Thats plausible! I'd go with it if it was scripted properly and wasn't patronising. It makes more sense than some super hero origin teams weve had in the past (basically I mean the Champions). lol

[Omega Alpha]

Actually the team that has no real reason to be together could work.

Let me pitch a quick idea here. Let's say for whatever reasons, some charity organization cntacts Ironman about being able to get some strong black role models to talk to some troubled teens. he pulls some strings, gets a group together that normally would have nothing in common. Something happens while they're talking, and a big criminal attacks. They work to stop them, and it leads duirectly into another thing, then another, and by the time they catch their breaths and relize what's going on, the media is already supporting them as some major new supergroup. So they decide to stick together for a while... and it doesn't work. A teamup was fine, but as an actual team, they're completley incompatible. However at this point with some many people counting on them and looking up to them, and maybe some charity deals or some private funding, they're kinda stuck working together.

OK, I admit that this is a good idea.

Although now it wouldn't work because no one would ask Stark anything. And Osborn would just pick any villains he could find.

[Alan2099]

Although now it wouldn't work because no one would ask Stark anything. And Osborn would just pick any villains he could find.
I just thre Stark out there. It could be anyone that's rather prominate in the hero community and the public can send letters or a phone call to.

[Hakael]

Have you ever been to Boston Garden?? I have.

I don't recall Boston fans having a problem with the Celtics team last year. Or anytime in recent memory. Also, the Garden was demolished more than a decade ago.

[SeritoNiN]

Diversity? No.

Marvel fans do accept pointless one-shots, hot shot angles, and 50 books with Wolverine's name on them, better than DC fans do though. :biggrin:

[StoneGold]

Diversity? No.

Marvel fans do accept pointless one-shots, hot shot angles, and 50 books with Wolverine's name on them, better than DC fans do though. :biggrin:

Sub in Batman for Wolverine, I think it could go either way.

[Ex_]

If these forums are any indication, yes.

When All New Atom and Blue Beetle were canceled, I saw a bunch of DC threads saying things like "Yeah! Stop trying to cram minorities down our throats!"

Who CARES if Atom is Asian? I don't see the big deal.

[RolandJP]

I don't recall Boston fans having a problem with the Celtics team last year. Or anytime in recent memory. Also, the Garden was demolished more than a decade ago.

Im not saying all Celts fans behave badly, but there were a few. And If you want I can quote former Celts, who encountered what I mentioned.

[Ex_]

Im not saying all Celts fans behave badly, but there were a few. And If you want I can quote former Celts, who encountered what I mentioned.

Boston is traditionally a pretty racist city.

[RolandJP]

Boston is traditionally a pretty racist city.

I wasnt trying to Malign an entire city. I had responded to a post stating that minority superheroes wouldnt have to deal with race. And I submitted a list of various celebrities who had to deal with the prejudices associated with sexual orientation, race, gender, religion, and I asked whats wrong with dealing with these topics in comics... Not as nauseum..like in every issue, but at least acknowledging its existence.

[Alan2099]

I think the fact that marvel has an huge and major franchise devouted to characters that are basically saying, "don't hate and fear us becaue we're different than you," might have something to do with this as well.

[Ex_]

I wasnt trying to Malign an entire city. I had responded to a post stating that minority superheroes wouldnt have to deal with race. And I submitted a list of various celebrities who had to deal with the prejudices associated with sexual orientation, race, gender, religion, and I asked whats wrong with dealing with these topics in comics... Not as nauseum..like in every issue, but at least acknowledging its existence.

No, I know. It's hardly as bad as it used to be, but Boston was--at one point--a very racist city.

[Evil-Spidey]

To some extent I agree. ANYONE with godly powers is a threat. Whether you're born with them or earned them in an accident, you're still dangerous if you decide to go rogue.

But... one issue that I thought really hit home the mutant fear was an issue of Ultimate X-Men.

If that same kid got his powers later and was not born with them it wouldn't make a diffrence. If someone was born with let's say fire powers and another one got them later through some kind of accident, the fear of the regular people would be the same. Especially with secret identitys and the amount of super powered people in the mu, regular people shouldn't even be able to tell the diffrence.

[Ratwedge]

No, Marvel fan are more accepting of Hollywood African Americans.

I'd rather have Black Lightning or Mr Terrific any day over Luke "Yo dawg I put some generic slang in your speech so you can slang while you speak" Cage.

[Evil-Spidey]

I'd rather have Black Lightning or Mr Terrific any day over Luke "Yo dawg I put some generic slang in your speech so you can slang while you speak" Cage.

So basically you are racist against people who use slang?

[Ratwedge]

So basically you are racist against people who use slang?


Oh god, your post is so full of fail. Racist against people who use slang? Is that possible? Here I thought Racist meant you hated people of other races and that its not a term that should be generally thrown about because you lack the appropriate language to sum up your fail argument.

[Ex_]

This is foolish. Just because Luke Cage uses urban vernacular and Mr. Terrific doesn't means NOTHING. If this changes how you like a character or not, who cares? Just don't read the fscking character. Luke Cage spent time in prison and was raised on the streets. Mr. Terrific is the third smartest man in the world. Black Lightning was the God forsaken Secretary of Education. They're different TYPES of characters. Stop thinking of their race and just start thinking of the characters and what makes them the way they are.

[Venom Melendez]

I find it odd that Luke Cage went from having a very flamboyant costume complete with tiara, to just an everyday, civilian outfit. The only black hero on the team and he doesn't even get a costume.

He got tired of people making fun of his tiara.


He doesn't really need a costume anyway since he doesn't have a codename.

Luke Cage is Luke Cage.

[Venom Melendez]

No, Marvel fan are more accepting of Hollywood African Americans.

I'd rather have Black Lightning or Mr Terrific any day over Luke "Yo dawg I put some generic slang in your speech so you can slang while you speak" Cage.



Cage isn't like that.

I rather have Black Panther or storm over Mr.Terrific anyway.

[Ex_]

Cage isn't like that.

I rather have Black Panther or storm over Mr.Terrific anyway.

T'Challa is made infallible by everyone. I'd take Michael Holt. Technology can't see him!!!

[XPac]

I'm biased as I'm more a marvel guy... but if we're citing the BEST black characters, I'd go with Storm at the VERY top of the list, and Black Panther as a close second.

DC has plenty of excellent black characters too... but no one over there can touch Storm (in my opinion of course).

[Ex_]

I'm biased as I'm more a marvel guy... but if we're citing the BEST black characters, I'd go with Storm at the VERY top of the list, and Black Panther as a close second.

DC has plenty of excellent black characters too... but no one over there can touch Storm (in my opinion of course).

You're probably right. The top of the black DC echelon is Black Lightning. Storm is better.

[Evil-Spidey]

Oh god, your post is so full of fail. Racist against people who use slang? Is that possible? Here I thought Racist meant you hated people of other races and that its not a term that should be generally thrown about because you lack the appropriate language to sum up your fail argument.

You know as well as i that you were talking about black people who use slang. Even then it doesn't matter because you are not a better guy when you are "only" racist against certain races.

[midnightman2001]

What The Hell Is Wrong With Being Lilly White???????

JLA is crap! It IS the POL COR league & I aint spending my $$$ on POL COR crap!

[$5 Milkshake]

What The Hell Is Wrong With Being Lilly White???????

JLA is crap! It IS the POL COR league & I aint spending my $$$ on POL COR crap!

LOL riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, its gonna be a shame not having you around here for long....

[celticguy]

No, I know. It's hardly as bad as it used to be, but Boston was--at one point--a very racist city.

No more than any other north east city.

[Sandy Hausler]

What The Hell Is Wrong With Being Lilly White???????

JLA is crap! It IS the POL COR league & I aint spending my $$$ on POL COR crap!


See ya.

Sandy Hausler

[celticguy]

Have you ever been to Boston Garden?? I have.


So you have been to the building (or buildings to include the newer Banknorth Garden) where The first Black player in the NBA played, the first black coach and the first black player in the NHL. How nice. not sure how it addresses point of the thread.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

What The Hell Is Wrong With Being Lilly White???????

JLA is crap! It IS the POL COR league & I aint spending my $$$ on POL COR crap!

When All New Atom and Blue Beetle were canceled, I saw a bunch of DC threads saying things like "Yeah! Stop trying to cram minorities down our throats!"


If you didn't notice, this is one of the people who did the second quote.


As for the topic at hand, I like some of the minorities used in Marvel, like Monica and Patriot (I REALLY don't like Black Panther. And I'm saying this as a Nigerian here), but I think DC does a better job with minority characters.


As for the FANS, which is what the topic is about... That is a bit more difficult. As you can see from the second quote, many people have said that the reason why fans hated on the new Firestorm, new Blue Beetle, new Atom, and new Question (heck, even the new Wildcat from COIE) is because they were minorities.

No. That's not true. There was backlash because they were legacy characters of heroes that had been killed or replaced in ways that ticked the fans off.

Firestorm - IdC
Blue Beetle - Countdown to Infinite Crisis
Atom - IdC
Question - 52, and that whole sickness thing.


Another thing that has been aimed at was the treatment from fans about the Dwayne's JLA. There's another reason for that.

It wasn't just because "he was adding minorities to the group", because he wasn't. He wasn't even diversifying the cast. He was just adding black heroes into the cast. Not a few Hispanic heroes, European heroes, Asian heroes, etc. Nope. Just African Americans and an African (from a *ugh* fictional village called M'Changa).

If you are going to diversify a cast, you should at least attempt to even it out. But, that wasn't his purpose: he was writing in characters that he wanted to write, and I don't fault him for that. But I see why fans had a problem with it.

[Ex_]

If you didn't notice, this is one of the people who did the second quote.


As for the topic at hand, I like some of the minorities used in Marvel, like Monica and Patriot (I REALLY don't like Black Panther. And I'm saying this as a Nigerian here), but I think DC does a better job with minority characters.


As for the FANS, which is what the topic is about... That is a bit more difficult. As you can see from the second quote, many people have said that the reason why fans hated on the new Firestorm, new Blue Beetle, new Atom, and new Question (heck, even the new Wildcat from COIE) is because they were minorities.

No. That's not true. There was backlash because they were legacy characters of heroes that had been killed or replaced in ways that ticked the fans off.

Firestorm - IdC
Blue Beetle - Countdown to Infinite Crisis
Atom - IdC
Question - 52, and that whole sickness thing.


Another thing that has been aimed at was the treatment from fans about the Dwayne's JLA. There's another reason for that.

It wasn't just because "he was adding minorities to the group", because he wasn't. He wasn't even diversifying the cast. He was just adding black heroes into the cast. Not a few Hispanic heroes, European heroes, Asian heroes, etc. Nope. Just African Americans and an African (from a *ugh* fictional village called M'Changa).

If you are going to diversify a cast, you should at least attempt to even it out. But, that wasn't his purpose: he was writing in characters that he wanted to write, and I don't fault him for that. But I see why fans had a problem with it.

Patriot rules, first and foremost.

Next, I totally understand people hating legacy characters dying and giving the mantle to someone else, but a lot of fans (at least on the boards)
seemingly feel like their deaths were simply to pave the way for non-white heroes.


NOTE: I don't feel that way. Jamie Reyes is awesome.

[midnightman2001]

Killing off an established character & replacing them with a minority is just stupid! Create a new character!


Firestorm - FORCED!
Blue Beetle - FORCED!
Atom - FORCED!
Question - FORCED!

There was a running joke at my LCS, which character in the DC universe would die & show up again as a minority & what minority. LOL

[Ex_]

Killing off an established character & replacing them with a minority is just stupid! Create a new character!


Firestorm - FORCED!
Blue Beetle - FORCED!
Atom - FORCED!
Question - FORCED!

There was a running joke at my LCS, which character in the DC universe would die & show up again as a minority & what minority. LOL

How could you say Atom was forced? The whole Identity Crisis setup had NOTHING to do with the All New Atom.

[midnightman2001]

It was forced because almost every month, or so it seemed, DC was cramming one of these POL COR heroes down our throats.

When Marvel created the Falcon, it was not forced.

When Marvel created the Black Panther, it was not forced.

When Marvel created Luke Cage, it was not forced.

When Marvel created Thunderbird, it was not forced.

When DC created Black Lightning or Dawnstar, it was not forced. All examples of great characters.

[Shellhead]

I agree that superhero comics from both DC and Marvel would benefit from greater diversity. However, it's actually pretty difficult to create popular new characters, and most of the popular characters were created more than 35 years ago, during either the Golden or Silver Ages of Comics. Wolverine and Punisher may seem like '90s characters, but they were both created in the early '70s.

So writers and artists are trying to create new and more diverse characters in modern times, but these efforts tend to fail. Why? Lack of creativity. Sometimes they are giving us replacements of existing characters, some of whom were still somewhat popular before getting replaced, like Firestorm. Sometimes they are giving us characters with very limited potential, like Bishop. Sometimes both, like Monica Rambeau. There just aren't compelling reasons to love these new characters, and it isn't about skin color. Just look at Gambit... once we all realized how lame he looked and how annoying his accent was, he dropped out of sight.

Comics are going through rough times these days. The fanbase is only 10% of what it used to be, and with Marvel's big price hike, I expect to see another significant drop in sales. So both DC and Marvel are playing it safe, canceling comics left and right, and making changes in the rest that should theoretically generate more sales. It's a rough time for a new character, so we aren't likely to see as many new characters for now.

[StoneGold]

You're wrong about Black Lightning. Read some of Tony Isabella's stories about that.

[midnightman2001]

How am I wrong? Black Lightning was forced?:eek:

[Umbra]

This is foolish. Just because Luke Cage uses urban vernacular and Mr. Terrific doesn't means NOTHING. If this changes how you like a character or not, who cares? Just don't read the fscking character. Luke Cage spent time in prison and was raised on the streets. Mr. Terrific is the third smartest man in the world. Black Lightning was the God forsaken Secretary of Education. They're different TYPES of characters. Stop thinking of their race and just start thinking of the characters and what makes them the way they are.

Well said.

[Deathspider1977]

Well, in the real world, race does matter, it's at the very least, a variable in the equation. Consider every person a complex algebra problem, but the only variable that should matter is how they treat other people. Or in my case, how a person treats me. After that, skin color usually is only a possible way of determining culture, upbringing, and acceptable and unacceptable ways to behave around them. For me, it's more important that someone isn't going to be a fucking dick to me. After that, hey, if the dude is black, maybe he's got an aunt who can make me a kick-ass red velvet cake.

In comics though, doesn't matter what color the character is, if the character is badly written, or sucks from the get-go (initial concept), the character is crap. A gimmick is a gimmick, whether you're a black gangbanger with super powers or the Hebrew Hammer or whatever, if the entirety of who you are is a gimmick, you're garbage.

MOAR well defined characters and stories, plz.

[Umbra]

T'Challa is made infallible by everyone. I'd take Michael Holt. Technology can't see him!!!

Actually, he is a Byronic hero, and far from infallible. Priest really highlighted that with his inferiority complex light of his father. Being in his father’s shadow and not being able to no matter how much he has achieved...to step out of it.

He was also shown as mysterious and scheming. In fact, his schemes did not always work out like he planned, during priest run.

In a 4 part mini series by Peter B. Gillis and Denys Cowan did not show his as infallible. In fact, the Panther God censured him heavily, and quite frankly kicked his a$$.

RH BP is shown being completely ill rational when it comes to revenge of his father death. This includes his departure from his early relationship with Storm; to pursue his father murderer.

Anyhow, T'challa > Mr. Terrific :biggrin:
But I love both characters.

[celticguy]

Killing off an established character & replacing them with a minority is just stupid! Create a new character!


Firestorm - FORCED!
Blue Beetle - FORCED!
Atom - FORCED!
Question - FORCED!

There was a running joke at my LCS, which character in the DC universe would die & show up again as a minority & what minority. LOL

Was Blue Beetle Kord replacing Blue beetle dan Garrett (I think that is his name) forced?

Ray Palmer replacing the golden age Atom?

I hate the Question change but the others don't bother me in the least and the fact that they are not white does not enter into if I like them or not. To be honest I often forget what race Firestorm is since the fire on his head distracts from me looking at this skin color.

[midnightman2001]

NO those were not forced. They were NOT done month after month with every imaginable minority shoe horned in so as to not offend everyone in some sort of POL COR stupidity!

[b4ustandsi]

I actually was pissed of when McDuffie took over JLA and people posted about how he was forcing black characters down people's throats. What the hell? First off, from what I remember, it was the editors who told McDuffie who to put on the book. And if anything, us black folks should be the ones pissed off of white characters always being pushed down our throats in every darn team that has no diversity. In the end, it may all depend on who's writing. If it's a black person writing a black character, they obviously have an agenda. :rolleyes:
thats not it at all. too many black people think that non-blacks critique blacks just because of their color. throwing the race card around like that is just a lot of BS and does nothing but further racism

[Umbra]

thats not it at all. too many black people think that non-blacks critique blacks just because of their color. throwing the race card around like that is just a lot of BS and does nothing but further racism

Calling him on the race card, when he has a vaild point is also B.S. Just because he is pointing out something that is true, that does not mean it the 'race card'...and saying it's " throwning around race card" is the same as you just stated.

[rage6839]

If you didn't notice, this is one of the people who did the second quote.


As for the topic at hand, I like some of the minorities used in Marvel, like Monica and Patriot (I REALLY don't like Black Panther. And I'm saying this as a Nigerian here), but I think DC does a better job with minority characters.


As for the FANS, which is what the topic is about... That is a bit more difficult. As you can see from the second quote, many people have said that the reason why fans hated on the new Firestorm, new Blue Beetle, new Atom, and new Question (heck, even the new Wildcat from COIE) is because they were minorities.

No. That's not true. There was backlash because they were legacy characters of heroes that had been killed or replaced in ways that ticked the fans off.

Firestorm - IdC
Blue Beetle - Countdown to Infinite Crisis
Atom - IdC
Question - 52, and that whole sickness thing.


Another thing that has been aimed at was the treatment from fans about the Dwayne's JLA. There's another reason for that.

It wasn't just because "he was adding minorities to the group", because he wasn't. He wasn't even diversifying the cast. He was just adding black heroes into the cast. Not a few Hispanic heroes, European heroes, Asian heroes, etc. Nope. Just African Americans and an African (from a *ugh* fictional village called M'Changa).

If you are going to diversify a cast, you should at least attempt to even it out. But, that wasn't his purpose: he was writing in characters that he wanted to write, and I don't fault him for that. But I see why fans had a problem with it.

But McDuffie has clarified most of the roster moves were editorial. I saw he responded on the DC board, maybe he can come over to Marvel. He has got to be tired of refuting the same argument though. But if he doesn't, you should try the official DC board and it has an ask McDuffie thread.

[StoneGold]

Was Blue Beetle Kord replacing Blue beetle dan Garrett (I think that is his name) forced?

Ray Palmer replacing the golden age Atom?

I hate the Question change but the others don't bother me in the least and the fact that they are not white does not enter into if I like them or not. To be honest I often forget what race Firestorm is since the fire on his head distracts from me looking at this skin color.

It's arguable that Ted was, actually. Ray, not so much, since that book was long canceled, and it was a different character entirely.


Otherwise, it's just Midnightman proving certain points in the thread.

[b4ustandsi]

Calling him on the race card, when he has a vaild point is also B.S. Just because he is pointing out something that is true, that does not mean it the 'race card'...and saying it's " throwning around race card" is the same as you just stated.
aren't u the same guy that said people rag on hudlin's writing because he is black? lol like theres a credible source about racism :rolleyes:

[$5 Milkshake]

aren't u the same guy that said people rag on hudlin's writing because he is black? lol like theres a credible source about racism :rolleyes:

Well, he's right though. The poster you quoted didn't use "The race card", even if you dont agree with his point.

I think he brought up a pretty easily noticeable trend.

[Shellhead]

Well, he's right though. The poster you quoted didn't use "The race card", even if you dont agree with his point.

I think he brought up a pretty easily noticeable trend.

But that is playing the race card: deflecting valid criticism of poor writing by blaming the criticism on racism. What if Hudlin is just a bad writer, regardless of his race? Play the race card to make Hudlin immune to all criticism, because of his race.

[$5 Milkshake]

But that is playing the race card: deflecting valid criticism of poor writing by blaming the criticism on racism. What if Hudlin is just a bad writer, regardless of his race? Play the race card to make Hudlin immune to all criticism, because of his race.

That's not what he was saying, though. He said:

Originally Posted by Greg Anderson:
I actually was pissed of when McDuffie took over JLA and people posted about how he was forcing black characters down people's throats. What the hell? First off, from what I remember, it was the editors who told McDuffie who to put on the book. And if anything, us black folks should be the ones pissed off of white characters always being pushed down our throats in every darn team that has no diversity. In the end, it may all depend on who's writing. If it's a black person writing a black character, they obviously have an agenda.

The point being, if a black writer chooses black characters, they're perceived to have an agenda.

[Shellhead]

That's not what he was saying, though. He said:

Originally Posted by Greg Anderson:
I actually was pissed of when McDuffie took over JLA and people posted about how he was forcing black characters down people's throats. What the hell? First off, from what I remember, it was the editors who told McDuffie who to put on the book. And if anything, us black folks should be the ones pissed off of white characters always being pushed down our throats in every darn team that has no diversity. In the end, it may all depend on who's writing. If it's a black person writing a black character, they obviously have an agenda.

The point being, if a black writer chooses black characters, they're perceived to have an agenda.

I'm talking about Hudlin. Did you (or did you not) defend Hudlin's writing by saying that people only criticized him because he was black? I don't have a problem with McDuffie's writing, and I'm a big fan of Priest's work, but the only good thing that I can say about Hudlin's writing is that he turns his work in on time.

[Umbra]

aren't u the same guy that said people rag on hudlin's writing because he is black? lol like theres a credible source about racism :rolleyes:

Actually I am not. I am just pointing out your Hypocritical B.S and Nonsense. I have criticized him and praised him, I have bashed and defended him. I just don’t bash him needlessly like some folks do over and over; example beating a dead horse.

So Maybe instead of trying to point the finger you should look in the mirror? You are the problem. What you just said in your post was B.S. Period... no spin will change that. Sorry.

[Dagger]

I'm talking about Hudlin. Did you (or did you not) defend Hudlin's writing by saying that people only criticized him because he was black? I don't have a problem with McDuffie's writing, and I'm a big fan of Priest's work, but the only good thing that I can say about Hudlin's writing is that he turns his work in on time.
But the original post Milkshake was responding to had nothing to do with Hudlin. Other than the poster having a problem with his writing.

[$5 Milkshake]

I'm talking about Hudlin. Did you (or did you not) defend Hudlin's writing by saying that people only criticized him because he was black? I don't have a problem with McDuffie's writing, and I'm a big fan of Priest's work, but the only good thing that I can say about Hudlin's writing is that he turns his work in on time.

I did not!

lol It'll be a cold day before I defend Hudlin's writing in any way :wink:

[Dagger]

I did not!

lol It'll be a cold day before I defend Hudlin's writing in any way :wink:
LOL. Don't worry, Shakey. I got your back!

[$5 Milkshake]

LOL. Don't worry, Shakey. I got your back!

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1002/friends1vk1.jpg

[Dagger]

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1002/friends1vk1.jpg
LOLOMGHOWSWEET!

[Flâneur]

Killing off an established character & replacing them with a minority is just stupid! Create a new character!


Firestorm - FORCED!
Blue Beetle - FORCED!
Atom - FORCED!
Question - FORCED!

There was a running joke at my LCS, which character in the DC universe would die & show up again as a minority & what minority. LOL

Aren't you the guy who said black people wouldn't be heroes anyway in the DC forums? Citing some sports coach?

[RolandJP]

So you have been to the building (or buildings to include the newer Banknorth Garden) where The first Black player in the NBA played, the first black coach and the first black player in the NHL. How nice. not sure how it addresses point of the thread.

Well i was answering a post, in which a person stated that no one would have a problem with a black superhero. And I agreed, that some would not. But there are those that would. I then went on to cite various sports stars, celebs and the like that deal with such prejudices.

I mentioned an altercation with a couple of Boston Celtic fans at the Garden when I was 8 as my own personal experience at seeing a sports star ( the only equivalent I could find to a superhero with the intent of explaining how race is a factor.)

If it will make you feel better Ive heard similar comments at Washington Wizard games, Philly football and hockey games.

And if my dads memory serves him, didn't Dee Brown a Boston Celtic player freshly drafted get pulled out his car while his wife watched because officers suspected him of robbing the bank he was making a deposit in??

To the point, Marvel fans handle diversity better than DC fans, who tend to be a bit older.

Not to dissuade, Ive read some good books with minorities in them. ( Not that, that is all i read) I don't post on every thread for every comic book I read, because it would look insane--I am a book buyer, not comics but standard fare..novels, textbooks, bio's, home and garden, etc.. .comics are my literary dessert

Haunted tank
Unknown Soldier
Adam: Blue Marvel
X-Men: World Apart
Ant--Mario Gully
War Machine
Damage Control
Vixen
Black Panther
Agents of Atlas
X-factor
not to mention indy press titles and many more/


Any who, here is a great article in the BBC that covers some of the topics on this thread.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5041046.stm

a few high-points

Danny Fingeroth, a former group editor of Spider-Man comics and author of Superman on the Couch: What Superheroes Really Tell Us About Ourselves and Our Society, says comics have changed to reflect society over the years.

"Until probably the late 1960s everybody was a 'neutral' white Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Even if you had a street scene in New York or Chicago everybody was white.

"The move towards realism was originated by Stan Lee and his collaborators in the Marvel Comics of the 1960s. They put in black characters, Hispanic characters. Along with that came an attempt to have more realistic personalities and reactions to things."

Ethnic minority superheroes made a leap forward with the first black central character in 1966, the Black Panther, the king of a fictional African country. Ten years later Storm, a black female character, now played by Halle Berry in the X-Men movies, arrived.

These are the pre-cursors of DC Comics recent decision to reinvent the Blue Beetle, a superhero whose alter-ego used to be white and is now a Hispanic teenager, or Martha Washington, Dark Horse Comics' black hero from Chicago's notorious Cabrini Green housing projects.

Alongside this diversity, the flaws, doubts and moral ambiguousness of characters has mushroomed. But if movie fans were to read a modern comic they would see a world of darkness a million miles away from the original Man of Steel.

In 1993 Superman was killed (although, in a move that wouldn't be unfamiliar to soap opera fans, he was later resurrected). In the recent DC series Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis well-known characters are killed, turn evil, and in some cases are even raped.

[Leebenhouse]

King Black Panther and Queen Storm (T'challa) (Leaders- Financier)


Blue Marvel (Field Leader)
Monica Rambeau (Field Leader)

Shola Inkosi
Cecilia Reyes
American Eagle
Puma
Living Lightning
Shang-Chi
Junta
Josiah X
Kasper Cole
Queen Divine Justice
Sunfire

Would you read a book with these characters as a team?

Nope. No token white guy.

[Leebenhouse]

In other news, I think that you have to take a look at the dynamics of DC and Marvel. DC is always tried and true, while Marvel is the House of Ideas. Read Stan Lee's autobiography for examples.

Furthermore, Stan would just throw things out there to challenge the readers preconcieved notions while creating sales numbers, no different than Joe Quesada does today. Heck, Percival Pinkerton of the Howling Commandos was supposed to be gay! So of course, in comparison, DC is going to stay with PC tried and true actions.

I noticed someone talked about Sandman, that was the Vertigo imprint, NOT DC. They also had sex, nudity and adult themes.

Marvel is just pushing the envelope. In the early 80s, gays and AIDS were still no-nos. It took til the 90's for Marvel to be brave enough to enter that territory, and the late 90's early 00's for them to really go mainstream. I think a lot of that comes from the guy that wrote Pedro and Me, who puts a token gay in every book he writes.

Marvel fans are honestly more diverse than DC fans, cause they enjoy diverse stuff that pushes the envelope. DC fans like tried and true stuff. Marvel was just less sucessful with the "grown-up" market back in the day with Epic, and for "adult" and "mature readers" I think DC probably still has a larger market share. They captured the "grown-up" medium of the graphic novel first, and exploited it initally better.

And honestly folks on the whole race thing, yes there are differences ON the GENETIC LEVEL between different races and peoples. Blacks are more likely to be lactose intollerant. Jews and a very small number of Hispanic peoples are one of the main carriers of Taye-Sachs(sp?) an inheritated genetic disorder.

However, it should be rememberd that we're all functionally the same, and that politics should stay away from science.

[carabas]

King Black Panther and Queen Storm (T'challa) (Leaders- Financier)


Blue Marvel (Field Leader)
Monica Rambeau (Field Leader)

Shola Inkosi
Cecilia Reyes
American Eagle
Puma
Living Lightning
Shang-Chi
Junta
Josiah X
Kasper Cole
Queen Divine Justice
Sunfire

Would you read a book with these characters as a team?That entirely depends on who's writing it. Priest? In a heartbeat. Hudlin-Boots? Not even if you pay me.

[the4thpip]

JLA and JSA are DC's biggest sellers if you factor out events and crossovers. Clearly, some vocal idiots on message boards don't mean that DC fans did not accept the diversity on those teams.

[Umbra]

That entirely depends on who's writing it. Priest? In a heartbeat. Hudlin-Boots? Not even if you pay me.

How about C.Yost and C.Kyle? They could do it... I would love priest.

[Umbra]

Nope. No token white guy.

So basically. Minorites should not read MA, TB or many other MU teams? Or are you joking? Or is this just your opinion?

[carabas]

How about C.Yost and C.Kyle? They could do it... I would love priest.I am unfamiliar with their work. Maybe buy the first issue if it comes out in a slow week. Or get the trade if it gets really, really good reviews. But probably not since I actively dislike Storm and the Panther as a couple.

[Sandy Hausler]

Heck, Percival Pinkerton of the Howling Commandos was supposed to be gay!

I doubt very much that in the early 1960s Stan Lee had any intent of Percy Pinkerton being gay. He was just a stereotypical effete English gentleman. I don't know if it's ever been established in the books that he was gay, but if it has been, I'm sure that was a recent development, not Stan's original intent.

Sandy Hausler

[Shellhead]

I did not!

lol It'll be a cold day before I defend Hudlin's writing in any way :wink:

Oh, sorry about that. That guy b4ustand or whatever was saying that you did. It's starting to get confusing, too because some people in this thread are referring to discussions at other websites that I don't visit.

[celticguy]

Well i was answering a post, in which a person stated that no one would have a problem with a black superhero. And I agreed, that some would not. But there are those that would. I then went on to cite various sports stars, celebs and the like that deal with such prejudices.

I mentioned an altercation with a couple of Boston Celtic fans at the Garden when I was 8 as my own personal experience at seeing a sports star ( the only equivalent I could find to a superhero with the intent of explaining how race is a factor.)

If it will make you feel better Ive heard similar comments at Washington Wizard games, Philly football and hockey games.

And if my dads memory serves him, didn't Dee Brown a Boston Celtic player freshly drafted get pulled out his car while his wife watched because officers suspected him of robbing the bank he was making a deposit in??

To the point, Marvel fans handle diversity better than DC fans, who tend to be a bit older.

.


The Dee Brown thing was not in Boston but in a very affluent suburb 20 miles or so out of the city.

He was in his car opening his mail from the post office and the bank accross the street was robbed. The police were told to robber was tall black man (Ithink in the same make of car) The town he was in does not have a black population of note so he may well have been the only black man in a few mile radius. Hell the black population of greater Boston cannot be much more than 10% if that, so i imagine a lot of black men find themselves being the only black guy in different situations.

You can view that a couple of ways.

The cops might have grabbed the first black guy they saw.
The witness might given a similar description to Dee Brown
He might have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
the cop or witness might have been out and out racist.
Guess which theory was played up.

I have been stopped by cops because I fit a description before and I am so white I am almost clear.

Look Boston like every city and town on the planet has racists of all races living in it. the Racist tab come from the Bussing fiasco of the 70's that the politicians screwed up. People acted out but race was a small piece of bigger issues.

People got all up in arms over the Celtics of the 80's in 86 they could not field 5 black players (quite a change from when they were the first team to field a team oif 5 players). But they won the championship with one of the best records ever. Is that racism or good managment of your roster.

The Red Sox have a bad history under their old ownership. they were owned by a horrible racist good old boy, who owned a whore house in the south, no doubt about it. It is far different now most of the biggest names are non white players.