Any Sympathy for Alura?

[ruppan]

Curious to see if anyone here sympathizes or supports the decisions being made by Alura. In particular, I mean Alura's decision not to surrender the Kandorians.

The more I think about the situation and compare it to real life human behavior, the more I think Alura's actions are justified. Alura is the leader of a nation, and also an endangered species. She should take all actions within her power to protect the survival of her species. Even the loss of even a few Kandorians could threaten their continued existence, i.e. loss of genetic diversity. With this in mind, she is justified in refusing to surrender the Kandorians.

Futhermore, the manner in which the surrender was demanded was unjustifiable. A group of the world's most powerful metas appear at the gates of New Kandor pretty much threatening violence if their demands are not met. Where was the diplomacy normally accorded to foreign nations? It was tantamount to Putin walking into the White House with a nuke strapped to his back, demanding a withdrawal from Iraq...or else.

My feelings are reinforced when I compare her behavior to that of real world governments. To avoid a political discussion, I'll just say that most governments around the world are willing to go to further extremes to protect less than their survival.

So what's your take on Alura?

(As an aside, I think New Krypton is much better for Alura's moral ambiguity. So none of this is meant as a critique of New Krypton.)

[Retro315]

I can sympathize.

She's not acting any different than hundreds of human leaders have done and still do all the time. The only difference is, she has no concept of restraint concerning her new powers, and hasn't had time yet to make the mistakes Superman has made that made him realize "don't misuse super-powers".

To her it's just a gift and guarantee her people will not be hurt again.

That being said ... Supergirl needs to smack her upside the head. She seemed like a smart lady at first, and I get the grief, and get the thinking for all 100,000 people, and so forth ... but if she doesn't wake the f**k up and smell the coffee soon, there won't be any turning back.

[Ontir]

Alura should be bitch-slapped, shunned, then thrown into the Phantom Zone.

...and I hate her name! So sci-fi hackneyed cliché!

[Magneto Rocks]

Alura is someone who has understandable motivations but has been portrayed so horrifically that it's difficult to have any sympathy for her whatsoever,

[Mat001]

I sympathize with her, because she has reason to act as she has for the reasons you list ruppan.


...and I hate her name! So sci-fi hackneyed cliché!

That's because she was created in the 50's. They're not going to change her name just to please you.

[ruppan]

Alura is someone who has understandable motivations but has been portrayed so horrifically that it's difficult to have any sympathy for her whatsoever,

I guess that's my point. She hasn't really done anything so horrible. We feel like that because she talks down to Kal and Kara, but that really doesn't amount to much in the grander scheme of things.

Her orders to capture Superman's enemies with lethal force isn't any different than invading a country with actual weapons of mass destruction.

[The Scarlet Sapien]

Alura should be bitch-slapped, shunned, then thrown into the Phantom Zone.

...and I hate her name! So sci-fi hackneyed cliché! I have sympathy for anyone named Alura

[Magneto Rocks]

I guess that's my point. She hasn't really done anything so horrible. We feel like that because she talks down to Kal and Kara, but that really doesn't amount to much in the grander scheme of things.

Her orders to capture Superman's enemies with lethal force isn't any different than invading a country with actual weapons of mass destruction.

While I wouldn't go quite as far as to make that comparison, I see what you mean. While her actual actions have been.... morally grey, the way in which she has been portrayed has really taken away much sympathy. She doesn't appear to have any doubt, her character didn't so much evolve as suddenly mutate, and she's portrayed as being utterly ruthless without seemingly knowing what she even wants to gain.

[Michael P]

Being stalked by Lotor all the time can't have been fun, so yeah, I always felt a little bad for her.

What? Oh. Never mind, then.

[Retro315]

Of course, there's also the notion that she might be under the influence of K-Poisoning right now. Which in that case ...

I don't know if Kryptonite radiation is anything like being drunk, where you have less rationale than usual ... but if it is, I can definitely sympathize. She's grieving, protecting her people ... and to top it off she's being belligerent about it because she's trashed on radiation.

[WorstThingUS]

Curious to see if anyone here sympathizes or supports the decisions being made by Alura. In particular, I mean Alura's decision not to surrender the Kandorians.


No. Given their great powers, any human deaths as a result of Kryptonian action was a conscious choice, so they basically murdered those men for no other reason than they could. Her cold-blooded reaction to this garners no sympathy or understanding.

But...

...their is something to your idea that the Kryptonians are in a hardcore "survivalist" mode after learning they're the last of their race. Not to draw any otherwise political allusions, but it's kinda how Israel is borderline ruthless in their response to any attacks against them. It's a result of literally several millennia of persecution. The difference is, earth has demonstrated no ability to be a threat to them.

[ruppan]

The difference is, earth has demonstrated no ability to be a threat to them.

I respectfully disagree.

They were targeting the demonstrated threats to Kryptonians. They only went after Superman's enemies and not the most powerful people on the planet. The police officers that were killed are analogous to soldiers protecting a weapon of mass destruction. To further my example above, imagine the US knew Iraq had an actual nuclear facility. The US sends well armed and armored soldiers to shut down the facility when they are met with resistance from poorly armed guerilla soldiers who refuse to surrender the facility. The killing of some of those guerilla soldiers in order to shut down the facility would be expected. In my mind, this is exactly analogous to the Kandorians' actions.

As for her cold-blooded reactions, ruthlessness, etc., I just don't make much out of it. All of those conclusions are drawn from her dialogues with Kara and Kal, who are totally out of their element in this situation. They're super-powered vigilantes who solve problems with their fists. This situation can't be dealt with like their normal villain of the week, which is fully supported by the clumsy way in which the Superheroes showed up in force to demand the surrender of the Kandorians.

Finally, I wouldn't trust Kal if I were Alura. He has a serious conflict of interest. But moreover, he's not one to take a hard position, rather he tries to appease all sides. In a survival situation where one side is set upon destroying the other side, appeasement tactics will get you killed.

[WorstThingUS]

They were targeting the demonstrated threats to Kryptonians. They only went after Superman's enemies and not the most powerful people on the planet.

Threats who were defeated by a single kryptonian and successfully being held by mere humans. How much of a threat is that to a race of superhumans?


The police officers that were killed are analogous to soldiers protecting a weapon of mass destruction. To further my example above, imagine the US knew Iraq had an actual nuclear facility. The US sends well armed and armored soldiers to shut down the facility when they are met with resistance from poorly armed guerilla soldiers who refuse to surrender the facility. The killing of some of those guerilla soldiers in order to shut down the facility would be expected. In my mind, this is exactly analogous to the Kandorians' actions.

Actually it's closer to being attacked by Natives with bows and arrows while you're in a tank. They can't hurt you or stop you, so why kill them? There was no way the guards could hurt the Krytonians or stop them, so killing them was just outright murder.


As for her cold-blooded reactions, ruthlessness, etc., I just don't make much out of it. All of those conclusions are drawn from her dialogues with Kara and Kal, who are totally out of their element in this situation.

Again, the Kryptonians are powerful enough to enforce their will without killing. Superman took over the planet bloodlessly. They killed because they wanted to and show no remorse or concern.

[Tra-EL]

Fact of the matter is, It was Brainiac who captured Kandor ON THEIR HOME PLANET and put them in a bottled up place to nowhere with no act of life. Braniac is an Alien form that opposes's a threat to places such as Earth, and already, Krypton.

Krypton has been long gone for decades upon decades, and here they are in a civilization where (she even said it herself) the human being that is Earth are the ones who are the weaker being in every way, shape, and form. This is why Kal was sent in the first place.. to lead them through their own in-abilities and teach them what Truth and Justice is all about, and at the same time earning their trust to except an ALIEN from another planet. Which the majority of Earth has.

You mean to tell me Alura is worried about Earthlings (who have no such powers as herself) and them somehow posing any threat to 1000,000 Kryptonians with Super-human powers, and doing the same thing that Braniac has done to her society of Krypton? Give me a break.

Yes, Lex Luthor has been Superman's human foe and villian for years upon years.. but look what it takes JUST TO SLOW DOWN SUPERMAN. Could you imagine what needs to be done to to slow down 1000,000? Alura needs to take this into consideration, and while I don't blame her for her actions, I do blame her by the way she's going about her actions.

Have some kind of understanding for Chris Sakes. Dammmn Woman.

[Tra-EL]

Can't wait for the final episode of New Krypton (atleast for this arc) Buckle your seatbelts.

[Mat001]

While I wouldn't go quite as far as to make that comparison, I see what you mean. While her actual actions have been.... morally grey, the way in which she has been portrayed has really taken away much sympathy. She doesn't appear to have any doubt, her character didn't so much evolve as suddenly mutate, and she's portrayed as being utterly ruthless without seemingly knowing what she even wants to gain.

She wants to ensure that her people do not suffer anymore as they've had. Brainiac kidnapped them and Krypton blew up. Her husband is dead and her nephew is blind to what is going on, rather than taking their side in matters. She also wants revenge for her husband's death.


The difference is, earth has demonstrated no ability to be a threat to them.

Except for sending Doomsday to attack them when they went to meet the President. Then sending Metallo and Reactron after them, both armed with Kryptonite. Three beings capable of killing Kryptonians. The planet has Kryptonite, super powered beings and now magic. Bizarro, the Parasite and the Silver Banshee can kill Kryptonians with their abilities.

If they can be a threat to Clark, they can be a threat to them.

[Adam C]

They were targeting the demonstrated threats to Kryptonians. They only went after Superman's enemies and not the most powerful people on the planet. The police officers that were killed are analogous to soldiers protecting a weapon of mass destruction. To further my example above, imagine the US knew Iraq had an actual nuclear facility. The US sends well armed and armored soldiers to shut down the facility when they are met with resistance from poorly armed guerilla soldiers who refuse to surrender the facility. The killing of some of those guerilla soldiers in order to shut down the facility would be expected. In my mind, this is exactly analogous to the Kandorians' actions.

Of course attacking a country simply because it has weapons of mass destruction, and not because it has attacked or threatened you, is an ethically (and legally) dodgy proposition to begin with. I mean has the US invaded Pakistan for its nuclear program? Or North Korea, even if it is a Stalinist dictatorship? Would it even be worth it given the destructive, drawn-out-armed conflict it would surely lead to? (That's leaving aside the fact that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction and wasn't really threatening to use them.)

But even accepting that premise, the analogy still doesn't work because the super criminals are not weapons of mass destruction held by hostile or semi-hostile power. They are criminals in the custody of various law enforcement organizations of the United States. Up to the point that the Kryptonians started nabbing the super criminals, the U.S. had no disputes with them. So really the analogy is more like the U.S. sending in an armed force to Australia to nab terrorists it has deemed sufficiently threatening while shooting down Australian law enforcement officials in the process. There's nothing about Alura's actions that are all that rational. In fact her actions, more than anything, make her seem irrational, paranoid, and while demonstrating a scant respect for the security or rights of other nations/governments. Yet she'd scarcely tolerate such impingement on Kandor.

[Adam C]

Except for sending Doomsday to attack them when they went to meet the President. Then sending Metallo and Reactron after them, both armed with Kryptonite.

Except that do the Kryptonians actually know that Doomsday and the robots were sent by an actual governing body on Earth? And weren't Metallo and Reactron sent after Alura decided to order that rogue op to place the Superman villains in the Phantom Zone? (Which really doesn't justify their attack on Kandor though, it's that she was doing this even before Zor-El was murdered.)

[kane]

I have no sympathy for her. She is not native to earth, she is only a guest. The earth belongs to the humans, not to the kryptonians.

[ruppan]

I mean has the US invaded Pakistan for its nuclear program? Or North Korea, even if it is a Stalinist dictatorship? Would it even be worth it given the destructive, drawn-out-armed conflict it would surely lead to? (That's leaving aside the fact that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction and wasn't really threatening to use them.)

This is why I didn't want to make too many real-world allusions.

The reason we have not attacked either Pakistan or N. Korea is because those are end of the world type scenarios. Both countries already have nuclear arsenals, and the US couldn't attack them without a nuclear counter-attack being launched. Basically, they already have the genie the US is trying to keep in the bottle for itself. Also, both of those countries are allies of China, and China would get involved for them. That would be the end of the world. In other words, the US doesn't attack those countries for self preservation and the preservation of the human race.


But even accepting that premise, the analogy still doesn't work because the super criminals are not weapons of mass destruction held by hostile or semi-hostile power. They are criminals in the custody of various law enforcement organizations of the United States.

Two points:

1. It's the criminals that control the powers and they are hostile.

2. DC US law enforcement is completely ineffective against metas, which the Kandorians would know as they looked up each criminal they were targeting.


Up to the point that the Kryptonians started nabbing the super criminals, the U.S. had no disputes with them.

From Superman/Batman, we know the US Government was developing weapons to deal with Kryptonians. From New Krypton itself, we know that the US is developing a plan to eliminate the Kryptonians through General Lane and Lex Luthor. The US does have a dispute with them. It wants to neutralize the potential threat of the Kandorians, exactly how Alura is trying to neutralize the threats to the Kandorians.


So really the analogy is more like the U.S. sending in an armed force to Australia to nab terrorists it has deemed sufficiently threatening while shooting down Australian law enforcement officials in the process.

Your analogy omits the part where the officers resisted handing over the terrorists. Those officers would not have been killed, if they had cooperated. If the Australians resisted handing over the terrorists, would the US be justified in taking them by force?


In fact her actions, more than anything, make her seem irrational, paranoid, and while demonstrating a scant respect for the security or rights of other nations/governments. Yet she'd scarcely tolerate such impingement on Kandor.

Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that this is how humans, as individuals, nations and a species respond to threats to their survival. It isn't pretty. It isn't fair. But none of that matters, if you're dead.

[ruppan]

You mean to tell me Alura is worried about Earthlings (who have no such powers as herself) and them somehow posing any threat to 1000,000 Kryptonians with Super-human powers, and doing the same thing that Braniac has done to her society of Krypton? Give me a break.


Actually it's closer to being attacked by Natives with bows and arrows while you're in a tank. They can't hurt you or stop you, so why kill them? There was no way the guards could hurt the Krytonians or stop them, so killing them was just outright murder.

Lana Lang made the entire Earth uninhabitable for Kryptonians with a push of a button!

You guys forget that Kryponite is seemingly everywhere on DC Earth. Everyone has a piece of kryptonite in their backyard. Not to mention technology to simulate red solar radiation. Oh, and magic. If the Kandorians sat back and did nothing, they would get wiped off the face of the Earth.

[WorstThingUS]

Two points:

1. It's the criminals that control the powers and they are hostile.

2. DC US law enforcement is completely ineffective against metas, which the Kandorians would know as they looked up each criminal they were targeting.

The same research would also so that these same criminals also fail repeatedly and Kal-El's survival is obvious. They can't defeat or kill one kryptonian. How could they threaten thousands? It's like saying there's a bigot who attacks the one Jewish in town, only to be beaten up by said Jewish guy again and again and put in jail. Then the state of Israel decides this guy's a threat to all the Jews and are willing to kill to get at him.



From Superman/Batman, we know the US Government was developing weapons to deal with Kryptonians. From New Krypton itself, we know that the US is developing a plan to eliminate the Kryptonians through General Lane and Lex Luthor. The US does have a dispute with them. It wants to neutralize the potential threat of the Kandorians, exactly how Alura is trying to neutralize the threats to the Kandorians.

We've seen no evidence that Alura knows any of this, so it doesn't pertain to this discussion at all.



Your analogy omits the part where the officers resisted handing over the terrorists. Those officers would not have been killed, if they had cooperated. If the Australians resisted handing over the terrorists, would the US be justified in taking them by force?


All the allusions use are problematic because they are between humans. We can hurt each other, but there was no way the humans could hurt the kryptonians nor could they stop them, so why did the kryptonians kill them if not simply for the pleasure of it or its impact?

[Adam C]

The reason we have not attacked either Pakistan or N. Korea is because those are end of the world type scenarios.

Probably, but I was mostly looking at the actual ethics of the matter which also applies to Iraq. It's attacking a sovereign state for no other reason than the possibility of being threatened by it. It's a dodgy justification for any number of aggressive acts, its use by Germany in both World Wars being only the most egregious example.



2. DC US law enforcement is completely ineffective against metas, which the Kandorians would know as they looked up each criminal they were targeting.

Possibly, but why not then make an offer to the authorities lock up said criminals in the Phantom Zone where they can safely be held as a gesture of good will?

Of course the answer is that there would be no conflict and therefore no story. And I'm fine with that set-up and the fact that the Kryptonians are on crash course with humanity due to Lane's active manipulation, their own hubris, and their alien culture. But justifying it in terms of the Kandor having a credible reason to feel threatened? It doesn't work so much.


From Superman/Batman, we know the US Government was developing weapons to deal with Kryptonians. From New Krypton itself, we know that the US is developing a plan to eliminate the Kryptonians through General Lane and Lex Luthor. The US does have a dispute with them. It wants to neutralize the potential threat of the Kandorians, exactly how Alura is trying to neutralize the threats to the Kandorians.

Which brings us back to what WorstThing said. In fact the whole story has shown Lane operating in secret, and no one is shown as having the slightest clue as to who is behind these attacks. So really Alura has no reason to suspect the US government beyond generalised paranoia. (And even then it appears as though Lane is operating as part of a secretive branch that has gone rogue.)


Your analogy omits the part where the officers resisted handing over the terrorists. Those officers would not have been killed, if they had cooperated. If the Australians resisted handing over the terrorists, would the US be justified in taking them by force?

So law enforcement officials are supposed to cooperate with an foreign armed force just popping up out of nowhere and demanding that they hand over criminals or else? It literally makes no sense that they would just hand the criminals over under such a scenario.


Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that this is how humans, as individuals, nations and a species respond to threats to their survival.

A delegation of Kryptonians handily taking out the monster that killed Superman is a threat to their survival?

[ruppan]

It's attacking a sovereign state for no other reason than the possibility of being threatened by it. It's a dodgy justification for any number of aggressive acts, its use by Germany in both World Wars being only the most egregious example.

Dude, I have to question your credibility. This wasn't the cause of either WW, and your take on US/N.Korea US/Pakistan relations is polyanna.



We've seen no evidence that Alura knows any of this, so it doesn't pertain to this discussion at all.

It wasn't exactly topical at first. I was responding to the point by Adam C that the US had no dispute with the Kandorians. However, the fact that the US was coming up with a plan to deal with the Kryptonians proves the main argument of this thread, namely a government eliminating potential threats is a justified course of action.


All the allusions use are problematic because they are between humans. We can hurt each other, but there was no way the humans could hurt the kryptonians nor could they stop them, so why did the kryptonians kill them if not simply for the pleasure of it or its impact?

Changing the analogy per your requests would be even worse for your argument. Make the Kryptonians bulls and make the policemen rats. Should a bull care about stomping out a few rats?

But, forget the analogies. Let's talk about what we're talking about. Those Kandorians were soldiers. They were making demands authorized by their government. Those demands were denied. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect soldiers to react with force in those situations.

[WorstThingUS]

Changing the analogy per your requests would be even worse for your argument. Make the Kryptonians bulls and make the policemen rats. Should a bull care about stomping out a few rats?

You may actually be on to something there. Maybe the Kryptonians killed them for that very reason. It was like being attacked by insects. You don't kill them because they can stop you or hurt you. You kill them simply because they're annoying you.


But, forget the analogies. Let's talk about what we're talking about. Those Kandorians were soldiers. They were making demands authorized by their government. Those demands were denied. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect soldiers to react with force in those situations.

I'm back to tank vs. bow and arrows. You're a soldier in a tank on a mission, those resisting can neither hurt you nor stop you. Why kill them? Assuming you're not a psychopath, then the only military value is to intimidate so others won't mount greater attacks so you'll have to kill more. In other words, kill 5 now so you don't have to kill 50 later.

[Adam C]

Dude, I have to question your credibility. This wasn't the cause of either WW, and your take on US/N.Korea US/Pakistan relations is polyanna.

I commented on US/N. Korea or US/Pakistan relations? I though I just brought them up in order to pose the question as to whether it was ethical to invade another country because you believe they have the capacity to pose a potential threat. (Though I admit that I did carry the discussion beyond its original parameters by dealing with the practicalities when a few Kryptonians killing police officers and nicking the Parasite isn't logistically analogous to invading Pakistan.)

Additionally, I never actually said that preemptive defence against potential aggression was the actual cause of both World Wars. I simply stated that its used by Germany in both World Wars was only the most prominent example of how this logic has been used to justify unethical acts. What I'm getting at is that the logic of preemptive defence as you have framed it is immensely shaky. So much that it has been a standard justification for a host of self-serving aggressive actions that rest on the flimsiest pretext. Using the logic you've put forth to justify Alura's actions one could claim that the U.S. should initiate armed force against Pakistan because their nukes may fall into terrorist hands...or Saudi Arabia because it's produced so many terrorists in the first place. It doesn't really work as a sound argument.


It wasn't exactly topical at first. I was responding to the point by Adam C that the US had no dispute with the Kandorians. However, the fact that the US was coming up with a plan to deal with the Kryptonians proves the main argument of this thread, namely a government eliminating potential threats is a justified course of action.

Yet having a contingency plan for potential threat is not proof that said government is a threat. And again, are the Kandorians aware of the events in that Superman/Batman story?


But, forget the analogies. Let's talk about what we're talking about. Those Kandorians were soldiers. They were making demands authorized by their government. Those demands were denied. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect soldiers to react with force in those situations.

Except that governments generally do not secure the transfer of criminals by sending in armed soldiers barking demands at other countries' policemen under threat of armed force. They request extradition through official channels. Would it make sense for Kuwait to send an armed coterie of soldiers into an American prison, point their guns at the guards and demand they hand over Khalid Sheikh Mohammed because he might commit future terrorist acts against Kuwait?

And why is it reasonable for the Kandorians to act with force, but for the Science Police to resist what is essentially the demands of armed thugs?


Changing the analogy per your requests would be even worse for your argument. Make the Kryptonians bulls and make the policemen rats. Should a bull care about stomping out a few rats?

Probably not, and I'm certain the soldiers that did saw the issue the same way. Really has nothing to do with whether Alura's actions could be considered justifiable though.

[Adam C]

You may actually be on to something there. Maybe the Kryptonians killed them for that very reason. It was like being attacked by insects. You don't kill them because they can stop you or hurt you. You kill them simply because they're annoying you.

Out of curiosity were those soldiers Zoddites?



Futhermore, the manner in which the surrender was demanded was unjustifiable. A group of the world's most powerful metas appear at the gates of New Kandor pretty much threatening violence if their demands are not met. Where was the diplomacy normally accorded to foreign nations? It was tantamount to Putin walking into the White House with a nuke strapped to his back, demanding a withdrawal from Iraq...or else.

This I actually agree with. It was an immensely bad idea in terms of getting the Kandorians to hand over the guilty.

However, being a traditionalist superhero comic, logic demands that the writer must contrive reasons for a fight scene. :tongue:

[Tra-EL]

Lana Lang made the entire Earth uninhabitable for Kryptonians with a push of a button!

You guys forget that Kryponite is seemingly everywhere on DC Earth. Everyone has a piece of kryptonite in their backyard. Not to mention technology to simulate red solar radiation. Oh, and magic. If the Kandorians sat back and did nothing, they would get wiped off the face of the Earth.

True. The thing is, if Alura would of took action with her own people, and let Superman handle this whole situation (Superman has only been on Earth his whole life and dealing with humans!) then maybe the people of Earth wouldn't be forced to use their Kryptonite or anything else against the Kryptonians for that matter. We all know Lex will do whatever it takes to take down Superman, and anyone of his kind. SUPERMAN is the one who should be in control, not Alura. I don't care what happened to her and Kandor. They are now free and in Supermans world so to speak. This is how she is going to have to repay givin' a second chance? Not even a year on Earth and declaring war out of ignorance?

[Alex L]

Lana Lang made the entire Earth uninhabitable for Kryptonians with a push of a button!

You guys forget that Kryponite is seemingly everywhere on DC Earth. Everyone has a piece of kryptonite in their backyard. Not to mention technology to simulate red solar radiation. Oh, and magic. If the Kandorians sat back and did nothing, they would get wiped off the face of the Earth.

That was in the middle of a storyline, in which Superman and Batman were cleaning the world of Kryptonite precisely so something like that wouldn't happen.

At the end of the arc, some 95% of the Kryptonite on Earth was put in a giant sealed vault and thrown into the Sun.

(It's supposedly 99.99999%, but... y'know, margin of error and all. The point is that Kryptonite is once again quite rare.)


I'm back to tank vs. bow and arrows. You're a soldier in a tank on a mission, those resisting can neither hurt you nor stop you. Why kill them? Assuming you're not a psychopath, then the only military value is to intimidate so others won't mount greater attacks so you'll have to kill more. In other words, kill 5 now so you don't have to kill 50 later.

I'd take your analogy further, and say "guy with a stick, vs guy with a Star Trek phaser." Or a martial artist vs a six-year old.

The Kryptonians are very well capable of handling rank-and-file Earth cops without killing. They are in no real danger.

Killing the cops, is more along the lines of setting the phaser to kill or the martial artist going for the neck snap right off the bat.

==========

As for the original question, no I personally do not have sympathy for Alura but I'm disappointed, because I should.

An Alura who says something along the lines of, "the deaths of the policemen are regrettable but we will not hand over any Kandorians to an outside entity" is sympathetic, while "I said they could do what they want; they're just humans (a lower life form)" is less so.

...which is too bad, because then we could have some real, actual discussions on whether the Kryptonians are in the right. As it stands, they're just egotistical, sociopathic jerks. Yay?

[ruppan]

True. The thing is, if Alura would of took action with her own people, and let Superman handle this whole situation (Superman has only been on Earth his whole life and dealing with humans!) then maybe the people of Earth wouldn't be forced to use their Kryptonite or anything else against the Kryptonians for that matter.

General Lane was planning to deal with all Kryptonians regardless of any actions taken by the Kandorians. He started his plan well before the Kandorians started capturing Superman's enemies.

Also, I can't see the Kandorians accepting Superman's leadership, nor should they. Superman is essentially a stranger to their society. He didn't share their experiences in Brainiac's ship, which certainly shaped their current attitudes, he only has second hand knowledge of Kryptonian society, and his allegiances are questionable.


That was in the middle of a storyline, in which Superman and Batman were cleaning the world of Kryptonite precisely so something like that wouldn't happen.

I got the impression that there were still large amounts of Kryptonite on Earth. Lana detonated the K-bomb at the end of the story, not in the middle, iirc. Also, Batman was shown to have large quantities of all types of Kryptonite at the very end of that arc. And didn't they follow that arc with the cloned Doomsday arc, where the government infused a soldier with Kryptonite and Doomsday DNA.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

After reading AC 873...

No. Not at all.

[Tra-EL]

General Lane was planning to deal with all Kryptonians regardless of any actions taken by the Kandorians. He started his plan well before the Kandorians started capturing Superman's enemies.

Also, I can't see the Kandorians accepting Superman's leadership, nor should they. Superman is essentially a stranger to their society. He didn't share their experiences in Brainiac's ship, which certainly shaped their current attitudes, he only has second hand knowledge of Kryptonian society, and his allegiances are questionable.



I got the impression that there were still large amounts of Kryptonite on Earth. Lana detonated the K-bomb at the end of the story, not in the middle, iirc. Also, Batman was shown to have large quantities of all types of Kryptonite at the very end of that arc. And didn't they follow that arc with the cloned Doomsday arc, where the government infused a soldier with Kryptonite and Doomsday DNA.

I understand that, but the tables are flipped. This isn't taking place on Krypton, a society that Kal doesn't know. I can see your reasoning if this was in fact taking place on Krypton, but it isn't. This is Earth, and Superman has a peace and offering..and is pretty much Earth's God and savior. I know if I was a Kryptonian I'd open my ears up to him and let him guide me through this place that none of the Kandorians know about.

[WorstThingUS]

Also, I can't see the Kandorians accepting Superman's leadership, nor should they. Superman is essentially a stranger to their society. He didn't share their experiences in Brainiac's ship, which certainly shaped their current attitudes, he only has second hand knowledge of Kryptonian society, and his allegiances are questionable.

Yes, but he is an "El" and if you don't think that matters, look at Caroline Kennedy about to become a US Senator.



I got the impression that there were still large amounts of Kryptonite on Earth. Lana detonated the K-bomb at the end of the story, not in the middle, iirc. Also, Batman was shown to have large quantities of all types of Kryptonite at the very end of that arc. And didn't they follow that arc with the cloned Doomsday arc, where the government infused a soldier with Kryptonite and Doomsday DNA.

Superman/Batman, pretty much exists outside of regular DC Continuity, so everything that happens there is questionable.

[Mat001]

Except that do the Kryptonians actually know that Doomsday and the robots were sent by an actual governing body on Earth?

Alura and Gor both believe that Doomsday's arrivial was not coincidental. That it was carefully timed to coincide with their meeting with the President. So this is why they believe Earth to be no better.


And weren't Metallo and Reactron sent after Alura decided to order that rogue op to place the Superman villains in the Phantom Zone? (Which really doesn't justify their attack on Kandor though, it's that she was doing this even before Zor-El was murdered.)

Yes, they were sent afterwards. But that point isn't the issue. It is the fact that Earth has weapons capable of killing a Kryptonian and that now they're being used on them, gives her the justification to act as she has. Yes, it is paranoia on her part. But was the US any less paranoid after 9/11?

BTW, Superman/Batman is not in continuity. So "The Search For Kryptonite" isn't an issue here.


I understand that, but the tables are flipped. This isn't taking place on Krypton, a society that Kal doesn't know. I can see your reasoning if this was in fact taking place on Krypton, but it isn't. This is Earth, and Superman has a peace and offering..and is pretty much Earth's God and savior. I know if I was a Kryptonian I'd open my ears up to him and let him guide me through this place that none of the Kandorians know about.

But Superman is an idealist tainted by humans. He has no say in these matters which is why he's going to do what he does in "World Of New Krypton".


Yes, but he is an "El" and if you don't think that matters, look at Caroline Kennedy about to become a US Senator.

And look at those who question if she should simply because of her birthright. She has no experience that would qualify her for that position. Same with Clark. He wasn't raised by Kryptonians and so they do not see him in the same light that we do.

[ruppan]

Yes, but he is an "El" and if you don't think that matters, look at Caroline Kennedy about to become a US Senator.

No, I don't think that matters. Caroline Kennedy isn't the best example. She could become senator via provisions which allow Governor Patterson to select Clinton's replacement, rather than subject her candidacy to a public election. It doesn't at all show that she would be elected by the people of NY or that she should be the senator. In fact, I was listening to NPR yesterday, and they reported a movement for a referendum to change those provisions and allow for a election in these circumstances.

Also, her name is being bandied about by the media mostly because of the sexism of trying to get a woman to replace Clinton. It's a total joke.


Superman/Batman, pretty much exists outside of regular DC Continuity, so everything that happens there is questionable.

I actually hear this a lot on these boards, but I don't understand where it comes from. Supergirl's return was in S/B. The arcs before IC all tied directly into IC. That stuff all has to be in continuity. DC never declared S/B out of continuity after those events (unless I missed the memo), so why shouldn't we consider it in continuity?


I understand that, but the tables are flipped.

I don't think it matters. Our political and legal systems are built around the concepts that representatives, either politicians or lawyers, should actually be representative of the interests of their clients/constituents. Politicians must reside in the state they represent, and be elected by the population of that state. A lawyer must avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest, otherwise he must recuse himself. I just don't think there is a point to having any type representative that does not solely represent the interests of his clients/constituents.

And all of that is irrespective of the fact that Superman has no real political experience.

If anything, Superman should be an ambassador of the US to the Kandorians. Given his background and priorities, that seems to be his appropriate role.

[Mat001]

I actually hear this a lot on these boards, but I don't understand where it comes from. Supergirl's return was in S/B. The arcs before IC all tied directly into IC. That stuff all has to be in continuity. DC never declared S/B out of continuity after those events (unless I missed the memo), so why shouldn't we consider it in continuity?

Here is what Matt Idelson said on the Superman Homepage, ask Matt forum.


In a recent SUPERMAN/BATMAN arc there was a pretty significant development in the relationship between Supes and Lana. Is the fallout something that Geoff and James will deal with in your books, or was that basically an imaginary story? And when making such a bold move in that book, do they talk it over with your office at all before going ahead?

To answer the first, SUPES/BATS is not set in real continuity, so the events in that title don't impact what's going on over here, even though that book does reflect the current status of characters from the in-continuity Superman titles. Nonetheless, they do talk things over with us in advance quiet often, if only to ensure that we're not duplicating each other (though I like to think it's driven by mutual admiration--okay, so I'm an eternal optimist).


Hi, thanks for your time here as always. On SUPERMAN/BATMAN #49, just before LANA pushed the button that settled all the Kryptonite dust around the world, she said that the Earth will be uninhabitable to all Kryptonian including all of Superman cousins (plural) and clone... now when she said CLONE, is this any indication of a certain character's return or just a mistake?

Well, like I said, Freddie, SUPES/BATS is not in continuity (or else Kal and his 100,000 new friends would be in serious trouble!), but at the same time, it does reflect current events of the DCU, so that clone comment just might be a hint of things to come down the road. I ain't telling.



Matt, thanks for answering our questions, it really lets us fans know you're watching! As for my question, you've said that the "Superman/Batman" title is not in continuity. Many of the story arcs, however, carry over to "main" continuity, Supergirl, Lex's fall from power, etc. Is the title being "not in continuity" merely a way to dismiss any storylines that don't fit with the rest of the writing, such as Lana dropping the K-bomb on Earth, while keeping those that further the main DCU?

As for SUPES/BATS, like I've said, the book does everything possible to reflect what's going on in continuity without being strictly tied to it, so they have the freedom to do their own thing. The Supergirl portion of that book's history does make a mess of that explanation, however. I guess we'll just say it is an imperfect solution to a perfect problem. I would just recommend enjoying it and not trying too hard to fit it into the larger puzzle.

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/inter-action/inter-action.php?topic=ask-editor/ask-matt-1108

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/inter-action/inter-action.php?topic=ask-editor/ask-matt

[Adam C]

Hm, sounds like they retroactively declared it "not in continuity" after Jeph Loeb stopped writing.

[ruppan]

Here is what Matt Idelson said on the Superman Homepage, ask Matt forum.

Holy cow!!! I did miss the memo.

[WorstThingUS]

I actually hear this a lot on these boards, but I don't understand where it comes from. Supergirl's return was in S/B. The arcs before IC all tied directly into IC. That stuff all has to be in continuity. DC never declared S/B out of continuity after those events (unless I missed the memo), so why shouldn't we consider it in continuity?

Well, given that Lana is mind-controlled and detonating k-bombs in S/B but doesn't show up anywhere else at all, nor is it mentioned as she becomes Supergirl's guardian is a strong indicator that it doesn't. It also tends not to follow continuity set in other books nor do other books acknowledge it, the horrible 50th issue where we learn there was contact between Jor-El and Thomas Wayne and Kryptonian tech is responsible for the Wayne fortun being a prime example. Also, Loeb was hopping around alternate universes (Batman Beyond making an appearance) long before 52 brought them back, so I'd say he was clearly off the reservation. As you say, I believe the diverging point was IC and if I thought the book were any good, I'd say this was a nice place to be in for the creators.

[WorstThingUS]

Holy cow!!! I did miss the memo.

Wow. There actually was a memo!?!

[CMBMOOL]

No, I can understand the lost of a love one, but there is a thing as going too far to listen to reason and when has Alura ever listen to reason ?:frown:

[Tra-EL]

No, I can understand the lost of a love one, but there is a thing as going too far to listen to reason and when has Alura ever listen to reason ?:frown:

Wait 'til you read the last issue of New Krypton. It will for sure make a long lasting stance at where Alura stands, and what her motives are.

Hopefully they don't drop the ball with this. This story is shaping up to be bigger than imagined.

[IamtheRock3]

I can see her side, even though she talks and acts like a mad woman

they dont KNOW doomsday was the goverment but they have thier suspension

the humans deaths was basicly a black ops mission that went south. And she didnt want to sale her people she gave orders to out.


So far in her mind the Humans have shown pretty good skill at killing them. Lets face it the only REAL reason superman hasnt been killed by all the those rocks is he the hero of the story

when it comes to killing NON SUPERMAN kryptons, villans have been pretty good at it, as you seen in last son

then goverment sent robots, that basicly attack EVERYONE, not just people who attack earth

and kill some innocents that had nothing to do with anything

so a fight broke out