Bill Willingham vs. Decadence

[Arrogantcur]

Most of you probably already noticed this on your way in, but in case you didn't:

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2009/01/willingham-no-more-superhero-decadence-for-me/

Now I can't say that I disagree with everything he says, because I do feel that heroes ought to have a code of ethics that they stick to, something that separates them from the villains. So there's nothing wrong with wanting heroes to act "moral", although I suspect that my idea of what's moral and what Bill's idea is are probably different.

Here's something I do disagree with, though:


“different, better, with higher standards, loftier ideals and a more virtuous — more American — point of view.”


“It all started going downhill when The Avengers were handed over to the U.N. and The Justice League of AMERICA got it’s name shortened. Is it America’s fault Belgium doesn’t produce comic books?” asks another commenter.

To which I ask: "Hey, why is it so important for teams to be 'American'? Is America more virtuous than other countries? Is America supposed to be better?"

I'm looking at this and thinking that Willingham and the people who agree with him would like superheroes to look at America as "my country, right or wrong," and that would be a big step backward as far as I'm concerned.

Sometimes the American government and people who hold power over America do the wrong thing. Captain America even realized this, and quit his job over it. Comics ought to reflect that, instead of telling us that all things American are perfect and must never be spoken ill of or questioned.

[Tetsuo_man]

While I agree with you on the whole america thing tha wasn't what caught me personally at first. What I thought was interesting was that he felt that there should be no gray area in heroes. Now I'm probabbly one of the first people to say that the morals of many heroes has gotten too gray (Iron Man During civil war and afterwards) but I think it's just going to far to simply say oh there shoudln't be any gray area and oh yeah even though I did do some gritty stuff in the past (in his Elementals) and am proud of it but i'm not a hypocrite because I don't want to do anything like that again in superhero comics.

[Tobias March]

Ha! Belgium produces awesome comic books - unlike the States its comic books aren't trapped in a superhero ghetto.

Asshat.

[Tetsuo_man]

Ha! Belgium produces awesome comic books - unlike the States its comic books aren't trapped in a superhero ghetto.

Asshat.

Are you refering to the commentator or are you misatribute the Belgium remark to Willingham? Now there are things I disagreed with Willingham about (particularly that just because there's too much grey in today's superhero comics that he believes that all superhero comics shoudl be black and white as opposed) he didn't make the Belgium remark. Now if you meant the commentator then yeah that commentator was an asshat. Although I feel ghetto maybe too strong a word to me but that's your opinion. Anyway let me explain my view of the whole grey vs. black and white. I do agree there is too much ambigity in many heroes today but I feel it should mean there should be a ballance not a complete reversal.

[Tobias March]

Are you refering to the commentator or are you misatribute the Belgium remark to Willingham? Now there are things I disagreed with Willingham about (particularly that just because there's too much grey in today's superhero comics that he believes that all superhero comics shoudl be black and white as opposed) he didn't make the Belgium remark. Now if you meant the commentator then yeah that commentator was an asshat. Although I feel ghetto maybe too strong a word to me but that's your opinion. Anyway let me explain my view of the whole grey vs. black and white. I do agree there is too much ambigity in many heroes today but I feel it should mean there should be a ballance not a complete reversal.

Nope, I was referring to the commentator. Honestly the comic scene there is a lot more vibrant and rich than we enjoy. They have comic book genres and no self-imposed emasculating Code either, so les bandes dessinees are enjoyed as a legitimate artform, not the stunted juvenalia we have - for the most part. I would argue that WiR/grim 'n' gritty/gratuitous violence and even Willingham's own complaints about 'superhero decadence' (see I'm bringing it back OT) relate to this, frustrated lashing out because the form cannot itself grow beyond the perception of being 'for kids'.

Solution - write for adults. There's a push/pull effect evident on US comic franchises, were characters slash and slice their way through villains - but Wolverine or Nick Fury can't be depicted smoking, because that's a bad influence on children. This situation is absurd.

[Nick Soapdish]

I was wondering about the Belgium thing.

Anyway, I thought his complaint was sort of ironic since most of the comics by him that I've read have been pretty gray.

[Adam C]

I was wondering about the Belgium thing.

Anyway, I thought his complaint was sort of ironic since most of the comics by him that I've read have been pretty gray.

I found it more ironic that his only examples were a two-year-old Superman movie that everyone has forgotten and a six-year-old Captain America story that even more people, except for Michael Medved, have forgotten.

[MartinRedmond]

Belgium doesn't do any super hero comics so w/e. And European comics have kind of getthoised too. Especially in later years. They started degrading alot in the mid 80s.

[Shades0077]

If Belgian comics are anywhere near as good as their waffles, then they are excellent.

[Tobias March]

If Belgian comics are anywhere near as good as their waffles, then they are excellent.

I was in a Brussels comic store with a creche.

A creche!!

The variety of books available in European comic stores is greater than what we have. Horror, comedy, detective stories, romance etc.

[MartinRedmond]

Just saying, for clarification, I'm in between the US and Francophony, my entire familly mom and dad, read comics, I was born late 70s and I still see alot of old comics for cheap here in used stores. There's still some decent magazines like Fluide Glacial and Tcho, but the 70s and anything prior to the 80s was their golden age imo. :>

[K-DoG7p7]

Just saying, for clarification, I'm in between the US and Francophony, my entire familly mom and dad, read comics, I was born late 70s and I still see alot of old comics for cheap here in used stores. There's still some decent magazines like Fluide Glacial and Tcho, but the 70s and anything prior to the 80s was their golden age imo. :>

I call BS on this as it sounds like noting but nostalgia

[Charles RB]

I'm a bit weirded out that he's associating being patriotic, talking about Being American, and making a derogatory comment about France when yelling at a villain with being heroic. Why would saying "and the American way" make Superman any more heroic?

And while it's not Willingham's fault, some of the comments freak me out.

[Tobias March]

I'm a bit weirded out that he's associating being patriotic, talking about Being American, and making a derogatory comment about France when yelling at a villain with being heroic. Why would saying "and the American way" make Superman any more heroic?

And while it's not Willingham's fault, some of the comments freak me out.

He's a conservative writer besieged on all sides by the filthy liberal media. Oh noes!!

[vanityman]

this reminds me of the quote from michael caine during press for the dark knight (paraphrase)

superman is the way america sees itself

batman is the way the rest of the world sees america

[Reverend Smooth]

Most of america doesn't see itself that way right now.

I read a lot of his comments as nostalgia, really.

[Michael P]

That Ultimates line may be one of the single worst moments in comics from this decade.

[Adam C]

this reminds me of the quote from michael caine during press for the dark knight (paraphrase)

superman is the way america sees itself

batman is the way the rest of the world sees america

I don't know. Even Batdick during War Games comes off pretty good compared to American foreign policy.

[Charles RB]

That Ultimates line may be one of the single worst moments in comics from this decade.

You mean it's not awesome for a superhero to make a joke about a nation surrendering in the face of invasion and suffering under a genocidal dictatorship, which for him was still ongoing a few weeks ago?

[Arrogantcur]

While I agree with you on the whole america thing tha wasn't what caught me personally at first. What I thought was interesting was that he felt that there should be no gray area in heroes. Now I'm probabbly one of the first people to say that the morals of many heroes has gotten too gray (Iron Man During civil war and afterwards) but I think it's just going to far to simply say oh there shoudln't be any gray area and oh yeah even though I did do some gritty stuff in the past (in his Elementals) and am proud of it but i'm not a hypocrite because I don't want to do anything like that again in superhero comics.

Good point.

I agree that they shouldn't all have the same idea of what's right and wrong, because I imagine that would make them so much alike that things would get boring.

Still, I hate seeing heroes go from gray to really dark gray or near-black. I used to consider Frank Castle gray, but now that he tortures people intead of killing them quickly and cleanly I'd say he's crossed the line to black, regardless of any good he's done. I mean, the Kingpin has done good things sometimes too, but that doesn't make him a hero.

[Corrina]

Willingham wrote the issues in which Spoiler was tortured to death and then Leslie Tompkins later (in War Crimes) revealed that she'd let Stephanie die just to teach Batman a lesson.

And then told readers who objected something along the lines of 'I wrote and how do you like them apples?"

So I'm thinking he's not the best authority on comics going gray or dark.

[Arrogantcur]

That Ultimates line may be one of the single worst moments in comics from this decade.

Okay, now that I'm familiar with that I've gained new appreciation for one of Elsa Bloodstone's lines in Nextwave.


And even in that story mentioned above where Captain America participates in the sinister cover-up, under the pen of the same writer, a few issues later he resurrects a shade of his former self (summons his inner John Wayne if you will) and tells an evil alien invader he’s fighting, “Surrender? Surrender??? You think this letter on my forehead stands for France?” (The letter is an ‘A’ for America, of course.) Good one, Cap.

Now that was kind of a dickish thing for Cap to say. Here's what Elsa said in Nextwave, which I gather was printed after the Cap story...


...Elsa Bloodstone, who is English; for one issue, she wore a European Union t-shirt with the € symbol encircled by stars, and at one point, when described as "my victim" by a villain, shouted "Victim? Victim?! Do you think this letter on my chest stands for America?!"

That line is ALL KINDS OF AWESOME! For the rest of the day, Warren Ellis is my god.

http://www.gangsterbb.net/emoticons/clap.gif

[Charles RB]

I used to consider Frank Castle gray, but now that he tortures people intead of killing them quickly and cleanly I'd say he's crossed the line to black, regardless of any good he's done.

I've followed the MAX line quite heavily, so to me the Punisher is black - he's just a less dark shade than the people's he's up against, which fits the nihilistic tone Ennis was going for.

Now in Marvel U stories where he's fighting Stilt-Man and stuff, I can see that he should be less black to fit into the MU's tone.



And then told readers who objected something along the lines of 'I wrote and how do you like them apples?"

See, it's not so much the Spoiler getting tortured bit that I find hypocritical (since it was a villain doing it and editorial probably had a hand in it), it's the response he gave. That is hypocritical with his new "oh no, too dark" stance.

[titanfan]

Willingham wrote the issues in which Spoiler was tortured to death and then Leslie Tompkins later (in War Crimes) revealed that she'd let Stephanie die just to teach Batman a lesson.

And then told readers who objected something along the lines of 'I wrote and how do you like them apples?"

So I'm thinking he's not the best authority on comics going gray or dark.

Agreed. Some of his protagonists in Shadowpact were morally gray as well. So I'm thinking it was kind of a "he's writing to his audience" sort of thing.

[hichaec]

If you're reading the comments in the original article, he claims the War Crimes and Shadowpact stuff was all editorial mandate and he really didn't like doing it.

Somehow, I find that hard to believe (for War Crimes, anyway), given the apparent relish he took in taking credit for War Crimes at the time of its publication. Same goes for War Games; I specifically remember him saying on Newsarama that the crossover was his idea, and now he's complaining about how uncomfortable he was writing it?

It's just difficult to take this "heroes should be HEROES" stuff seriously from someone with his history. It'd be one thing if he were turning a new leaf and felt this way, but claiming he was following this code during his run on Robin makes the whole thing feel totally disingenuous.

[Charles RB]

I specifically remember him saying on Newsarama that the crossover was his idea, and now he's complaining about how uncomfortable he was writing it?

It's unlikely he'd have said "DC told me to write it and it's really shit, but I need the money for mortgages and stuff" even if it was completely true, not if he wanted to keep getting work.

The relish and "how do you like THEM apples?" responses, on the other hand, don't fit with him being unhappy to do it.

[Gail Simone]

I had a crazy debate with Bill at a dinner once. I love Bill, he has always been a big supporter and of course, he's a brilliant creator. But our conversation was SO MUCH from opposite sides of the debate that we barely had enough common ground to discuss the issue at hand.

It didn't change anything. He's still a great guy, a brilliant creator, and a kind and generous human being.

I get what he's saying, but I am just always skeptical of sweeping manifestos like this. There IS no one single method of doing anything creative.

[TomStillwell]

I understand what Bill's talking about. Heck, that's part of the reason why I created Honor Brigade.

But everything has its place. You can't whitewash all of superhero comics.

[Paul McEnery]

I think we can see why this nutbar site published it, too: as a pre-emptive strike against Watchmen.

[Corrina]

If you're reading the comments in the original article, he claims the War Crimes and Shadowpact stuff was all editorial mandate and he really didn't like doing it.


That's not what he said at the time. He said his name was on the story, he wrote it, and fans complaining should basically stuff the complaints.

I don't usually get angry at creators online in the least but given the validity of the complaints against the stupidity of that storyline, I found his comments sneering and over the top. And his turnaround doesn't seem sincere as a result.

[Tobias March]

Paul McEnery I think we can see why this nutbar site published it, too: as a pre-emptive strike against Watchmen.

IF that's true, it's hilarious. A broadside against Watchmen, responsible for the grim 'n' gritty era....bollix.

Alan Moore wasn't responsible for the descent into violence the comic industry took. Bad writers were.

[Paul McEnery]

Paul McEnery I think we can see why this nutbar site published it, too: as a pre-emptive strike against Watchmen.

IF that's true, it's hilarious. A broadside against Watchmen, responsible for the grim 'n' gritty era....bollix.

Alan Moore wasn't responsible for the descent into violence the comic industry took. Bad writers were.

Ah, you're forgetting what the nutbars are like, and that this is a site that is screaming against the supposed liberal bias in Hollywood.

Of course they're going to be upset at Watchmen -- it's "librul".

Do I have to say more, really? I don't think so.

[Tobias March]

Ah, you're forgetting what the nutbars are like, and that this is a site that is screaming against the supposed liberal bias in Hollywood.

Of course they're going to be upset at Watchmen -- it's "librul".

Do I have to say more, really? I don't think so.

I don't know, they might be pleasantly surprised by Snyder's version.

I mean the entire world cowering from an American superman striding across the cosmos (little realizing Ozzie fakeout) - they gotta be happy with that.

[Paul McEnery]

I don't know, they might be pleasantly surprised by Snyder's version.

I mean the entire world cowering from an American superman striding across the cosmos (little realizing Ozzie fakeout) - they gotta be happy with that.

You could, of course, be horribly right. You bastard. :tongue:

Still and all, what we're absolutely looking at here -- as is evidenced by Willingham himself being up to his eyes in decadence (not to mention interspecies sex in Fables; and they say it's the left that's perverse!) -- is those damn lefty brits using superhero comics to score political points. That's what's up his butt.

[Tobias March]

You could, of course, be horribly right. You bastard. :tongue:

Still and all, what we're absolutely looking at here -- as is evidenced by Willingham himself being up to his eyes in decadence (not to mention interspecies sex in Fables; and they say it's the left that's perverse!) -- is those damn lefty brits using superhero comics to score political points. That's what's up his butt.

Exactly. Peopling your comic book narrative with fairy tale characters to construct a metaphor (http://www.avclub.com/articles/bill-willingham,14134/) about the conflict in Israel - good.

Using comic book tropes to sketch how the cold war mentality was determined, if not eager, for MAD - bad.

[Charles RB]

What I want to know is does this mean the cast of Captain Britain And MI:13 are less heroic because they're not American (outside of Black Knight and he's an expat) and aren't following American values? Cos if you're going to link being a patriotic American to heroism...

[Nick Soapdish]

That's not what he said at the time. He said his name was on the story, he wrote it, and fans complaining should basically stuff the complaints.

I don't usually get angry at creators online in the least but given the validity of the complaints against the stupidity of that storyline, I found his comments sneering and over the top. And his turnaround doesn't seem sincere as a result.

The story also happened almost immediately after he signed on. His first arc was a set-up for War Crimes. So he had a pretty good idea what he was signing on for at the beginning (and in interviews, he claimed that he did). If he didn't like it, he should've passed.

[hichaec]

That's not what he said at the time. He said his name was on the story, he wrote it, and fans complaining should basically stuff the complaints.

I don't usually get angry at creators online in the least but given the validity of the complaints against the stupidity of that storyline, I found his comments sneering and over the top. And his turnaround doesn't seem sincere as a result.

Yep. I looked around for a while and found the letter (it's no longer on his webspace, but his post (http://www.clockworkstorybook.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=291) to the fabletown boards remains), and it's every bit as bad as I remembered it being. Condescending, rude, and incredibly unprofessional - but I'm sure his editors made him write it, too.

Like I said - I could believe his new post if he didn't claim he'd been feeling this way the whole time he was working for DC. As it stands, I just think he's full of it, even if he does make some good points.

[Charles RB]

Just read the post in question.

Bloody hell, that was patronising.

[Corrina]

Just read the post in question.

Bloody hell, that was patronising.

Yes.

I mean, I usually don't care what a creator says on-line but that one felt like a personal insult.

It's also interesting that Chuck Dixon, another character, was Spoiler's creator.

Dixon was the one who undid that story before getting tossed off DC.

ETA: Editors don't *make* writers write anything. You can either walk away or not. Sure, there are consequences to walking away. But you can. Dixon did.

Not sure what that says about conservative writers.

[Tommy]

What I want to know is does this mean the cast of Captain Britain And MI:13 are less heroic because they're not American (outside of Black Knight and he's an expat) and aren't following American values? Cos if you're going to link being a patriotic American to heroism...

I'd be interested to know his take on the X-men. The American Government/people has pretty consistently been their adversary, even more so than Magneto.

[Indigo Al]

I just fail to see how his viewpoint is somehow "new" or relevant, or says anything in a better way than Joe Kelly's "What's so Funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way".

[Charles RB]

I'd be interested to know his take on the X-men. The American Government/people has pretty consistently been their adversary, even more so than Magneto.

That's a point - if superhero comics should be showing patriotism, this technically makes the X-Men the most unheroic comic on the market.


Joe Kelly's "What's so Funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way".

Was that the one where Superman proves he's morally superior to some Authority clones by beating them up and psychologically tormenting them?

[Indigo Al]

Was that the one where Superman proves he's morally superior to some Authority clones by beating them up and psychologically tormenting them?

Yep, the very one. And he WAs superior to them, too!

[Tommy]

That's a point - if superhero comics should be showing patriotism, this technically makes the X-Men the most unheroic comic on the market

Which I personally find kind of funny since I've considered the X-men about the most heroic due to the fact that they seem to be the only heroes who actually seem to put a lot of effort into reforming villains (even if it doesn't always work out.)

But I suppose blind jingoism is far more heroic promoting social goals.

[darknessatnoon]

Which I personally find kind of funny since I've considered the X-men about the most heroic due to the fact that they seem to be the only heroes who actually seem to put a lot of effort into reforming villains (even if it doesn't always work out.)

But I suppose blind jingoism is far more heroic promoting social goals.

The X-Men are a bunch of perverts who actively undermine the United States Government and the American way on behalf of their prissy, Euro, private school interests.

[MartinRedmond]

The X-Men forgive criminals because they love to be abused.

[MartinRedmond]

Paul McEnery I think we can see why this nutbar site published it, too: as a pre-emptive strike against Watchmen.

IF that's true, it's hilarious. A broadside against Watchmen, responsible for the grim 'n' gritty era....bollix.

Alan Moore wasn't responsible for the descent into violence the comic industry took. Bad writers were.

Right, Alan's writen so many pacifist comics offering real life, non dramatic solutions to so many problems. It must be nice reading comics on your planet.

[Indigo Al]

Which I personally find kind of funny since I've considered the X-men about the most heroic due to the fact that they seem to be the only heroes who actually seem to put a lot of effort into reforming villains (even if it doesn't always work out.)

But I suppose blind jingoism is far more heroic promoting social goals.

Yes, Tommy, but I find insidious right-wing tendencies in your hatred of mohawked Storm, JRJR era Uncanny X-Men.

[Arrogantcur]

I'd be interested to know his take on the X-men. The American Government/people has pretty consistently been their adversary, even more so than Magneto.

Depends how much of a libertarian, "government is bad" streak he has, I guess.

On a slightly different subject, I wish I could go back in time to when the "All New, All Different" team debuted so I could see people's heads exploding as soon as they found out that there was going to be a FILTHY PINKO COMMIE on the team! :evilsmile:

[Charles RB]

Depends how much of a libertarian, "government is bad" streak he has, I guess.

He wrote a Robin story about Robin helping the US military in Afghanistan and held that up as an example of heroic superheroes, so I don't think he has that streak. (Though he might now the Democrats are in...)


On a slightly different subject, I wish I could go back in time to when the "All New, All Different" team debuted so I could see people's heads exploding as soon as they found out that there was going to be a FILTHY PINKO COMMIE on the team! :evilsmile:

Oh god, yeah, that probably caused a deluge of angry letters.

[Tobias March]

Right, Alan's writen so many pacifist comics offering real life, non dramatic solutions to so many problems. It must be nice reading comics on your planet.

Ok (http://www.somnopolis.net/2009/01/14/watchmen-responsible-for-superhero-decadence/) lets look at this. First off there's Moore's Dourdevil satirising the Frank Miller era (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/6950928.html)

Then we could see John Totleben's apocalyptic depiction of Kid Marvel's (http://www.weeklycrisis.com/2008/08/top-10-tuesdays-10-shocking-comic-book.html)destruction of London (that link actually features Kid Marvel's death - as well as Moore's penned death scenes for Rorschach and Krypto).

The difference between them is stark. Moore has often spoken about Watchmen has unleashing his 'bad dream', on the comic industry -

Blather.net:Yeah (http://blather.net/articles/amoore/watchmen1.html), at the time I was thinking "Well, this is the end of the genre," you know?

Moore: Well at the time I think I had vain thoughts, thinking "Oh well, no-one's going to be able to follow this, they'll all just have to stop producing superhero comics and do something more rewarding with their lives" but no, what happened was that it just started a whole genre of pretentious comics or miserable comics - or you could even see, you look at the Image comics of the early '90s, and you could see people who were predominantly superhero artists who hadn't got much of a grasp of writing, trying to sort of lift riffs from Watchmen, Dark Knight, you know, those mid-'80s books. It was like looking at your deformed bastard grandchildren or something like that. Yeah, I think that David Bowie once referred to himself as "The face that launched a thousand pretensions," and you can somehow kind of feel the same way [as] when I saw the actual effect of Watchmen upon comics [which] was probably a kind of deleterious effect, which is not surprizing I guess. Often the better works in any medium have the most negative effect. It's paradoxical but you get, say, something like Harvey Kurtzman's MAD comics in the mid-'50s, which to my mind if I had to pick one single comic book that was the best comic book ever it would be Kurtzman's MAD, that was the best comic book ever in my opinion but the thing is that, brilliant though it was, it doomed us to sixty years of humour comics named after some sort of mental aberration or illness.

And afterward you see attempts by Moore to break away from the previously dystopic perception of comics, namely Supreme and the ABC line.

From Hell takes the gruesome murders of the Ripper and expounds upon them to see the changes made to British society as a result (apart from the grip of Ripperology on the popular culture, one can also trace the creation of a metropolitan police force and an evolution of tabloid culture to those events). The violence and horror has a purpose, there's meaning to it. It's not this (http://www.titanstower.com/assets/whos%20who/aapanels/teentitans3/IC4pantha.jpg).

Even Watchmen describes its heroes as either fetishists, mentally deranged or utterly disinterested in human behaviour, distanced fatally from human concerns. The violence does not glorify them - nor voyeuristically us the readers - it lessens them, as they're caught in a self-destructive loop that will potentially destroy the very world they're trying to save.

These freakish superhumans do not preserve the status quo, they warp and change it. In the end I believe that is what Bill Willingham is really disturbed by (if Paul's assertion that this is a response to Watchmen is correct).

[Paul McEnery]

These freakish superhumans do not preserve the status quo, they warp and change it. In the end I believe that is what Bill Willingham is really disturbed by (if Paul's assertion that this is a response to Watchmen is correct).

To be clear, I don't think that's what Willingham's writing about -- because I think that, within the community, a number of professionals think the same way. Like I say, G-Mo's been there forever; Alan Moore's gone there; Dan Slott's certainly there, and Kurt Busiek (may his name be thrice-hallowed until he pops up with a bamf). Lot's of good fun stuff that's past the grim and gritty.

And I take Willingham at his word that he'd like things to be otherwise than some of the stuff he's participated in; that he'd like to be able to get work with these characters that didn't have to go along with the Didio Dismemberment Drive.

But when Tinfoil Hollywood reprints it, their motivation is to set up an outpost to rail against them durned libruls making movies that hate America.

[Tobias March]

To be clear, I don't think that's what Willingham's writing about -- because I think that, within the community, a number of professionals think the same way. Like I say, G-Mo's been there forever; Alan Moore's gone there; Dan Slott's certainly there, and Kurt Busiek (may his name be thrice-hallowed until he pops up with a bamf). Lot's of good fun stuff that's past the grim and gritty.

And I take Willingham at his word that he'd like things to be otherwise than some of the stuff he's participated in; that he'd like to be able to get work with these characters that didn't have to go along with the Didio Dismemberment Drive.

But when Tinfoil Hollywood reprints it, their motivation is to set up an outpost to rail against them durned libruls making movies that hate America.

Fair enough. I just seized on that because I thought what was really threatening about the examples he provided was the political content. Captain America apologising for the actions of his government/military!? Never!

Also while not named, he focuses on Millar's use of the character (although I got confused - is he saying the military wouldn't cover up a gigantic clusterfuck of a government sponsored operation that resulted in the deaths of civilians.....esprit de corps applies surely). Didn't Gruenwald have Cap lecture Israeli Nazi hunters on their narrowmindedness 20 years ago? And Englehart have Cap resign in disgust at Watergate 30 years ago? Didn't Lee use him as a Spider-Man villain in the 60's?

I'm confussled.

[Grazzt]

To be clear, I don't think that's what Willingham's writing about -- because I think that, within the community, a number of professionals think the same way. Like I say, G-Mo's been there forever; Alan Moore's gone there; Dan Slott's certainly there, and Kurt Busiek (may his name be thrice-hallowed until he pops up with a bamf). Lot's of good fun stuff that's past the grim and gritty.

I don't know, I'd actually say Kurt Busiek is the opposite of that, assuming you're referring to Astro City.

[Nick Soapdish]

Yes.

I mean, I usually don't care what a creator says on-line but that one felt like a personal insult.

It's also interesting that Chuck Dixon, another character, was Spoiler's creator.

Dixon was the one who undid that story before getting tossed off DC.

ETA: Editors don't *make* writers write anything. You can either walk away or not. Sure, there are consequences to walking away. But you can. Dixon did.

Not sure what that says about conservative writers.

Yeah, Chuck Dixon is a real character.

I pretty much don't ever agree with his politics, but he's almost always very good about keeping it out of his storytelling.