Peter David interview

[vagg3liz]

Thought you might wanna check this:
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010905-Spec-X.html

[jarrod]

Sounds good, I'm on board. But I likes my ruiners and my trades, sorry PAD.

[Vanish]

I'm willing to take Peter David's advice and HOPE that X-Factor will truly be revitalized.

[Home made ectoplasm]

I will hope nobody spoils, but I can't see it happening, unfortunately.

Please no spoliers in X Cress, thanks in advance

[Pach!]

I can tell PAD right now that people will spoil/read spoilers re: those issues.

[Waterlily]

Thanks for the link.

I respect PAD's decision, it's probably the right one to make. I <3 spoilers, they don't usually ruin the story, but seeing the responses over in the Wolverine thread shows me that PAD's making a good choice.

[Omega Alpha]

I think the book it's still pretty good, even if it was better pre-Messiah Complex.

And PAD seems kind of bitter lately.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

Sounds like he's going to eff up the formula.(not that his track record on long runs suggests it, just when pressure come to please one group, the previous group will get pissed off) I'm on board regardless. I'm worried he'll kill a few folks or shake up the whole team to boost the sales 3 fold, in just three issues.
If anyone can do it without being Hamfisted it's PAD, but to feel forced into it just doesn't seem right.

Well, I'm on board. Can't wait to see what develops.

[Kid Icarus]

I think the book it's still pretty good, even if it was better pre-Messiah Complex.

And PAD seems kind of bitter lately.

I have felt the bitterness too
but then maybe it was because he was given a pisspoor artist on his book
I would be bitter too

[darknessatnoon]

Sounds like he's going to eff up the formula.(not that his track record on long runs suggests it, just when pressure come to please one group, the previous group will get pissed off) I'm on board regardless. I'm worried he'll kill a few folks or shake up the whole team to boost the sales 3 fold, in just three issues.
If anyone can do it without being Hamfisted it's PAD, but to feel forced into it just doesn't seem right.

Well, I'm on board. Can't wait to see what develops.

I vote he trim the non-essential characters with a bloodbath.

Starting at Guido, but not ending with Longshot. We need to get rid of Theresa as well. I don't like her. She's all about religious ironies and I find those boring.

Then boost sales by bringing in Sage and Pulse.

[Vanish]

I can tell PAD right now that people will spoil/read spoilers re: those issues.

Well of course.

And in a way, spoilers are kinda what remind me that an issue is out so I'm rather glad they're there.

[Pach!]

Well of course.

And in a way, spoilers are kinda what remind me that an issue is out so I'm rather glad they're there.
good spoilers might be the thing that gets me back into X-factor so they arent entirely evil.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

most of late 90s early 00s X-men is lost on me.
Sage and Pulse=? I don't know their appeal, because I haven't read their stories. Not hating, just don't really feel like investing in multiple trades to catch up.
As for Guido,he is comic relief(granted they do usually die in action/noir flicks) and he's the Strong guy, though M could pretty much fill those shoes. And why kill Madrox's baby mama? I like his take on her.

[Vanish]

good spoilers might be the thing that gets me back into X-factor so they arent entirely evil.

Yah for sure.

I dunno...the shock of what's to occur usually doesn't make a story for me. The execution is what has always been the biggest factor, especially in the pages of this comic.

BUT I WILL TRY. At least for 2/3 of the proposed RUINER FREE arc.

[darknessatnoon]

most of late 90s early 00s X-men is lost on me.
Sage and Pulse=? I don't know their appeal, because I haven't read their stories. Not hating, just don't really feel like investing in multiple trades to catch up.
As for Guido,he is comic relief(granted they do usually die in action/noir flicks) and he's the Strong guy, though M could pretty much fill those shoes. And why kill Madrox's baby mama? I like his take on her.

Sage and Pulse would add glamor and sex to the comic. They are incredibly sensual characters. That's all you need to know other than that they would be incredibly helpful in both detective work and combating Sentinels.

Guido is not a racial minority (though, he is an "ethnic white"), and those are the comic relief that tend to bite it. I just find him useless, and his distorted body hurts my eyes. Plus, he hasn't had one plot in the entire series. The sheriff thing got derailed, and nada since then.

I think Rahne is a more interesting Catholic than Theresa.

[Prodigy55]

Sage and Pulse do not fit in with the hip X-Factor people.

Fact.

Theresa and Guido should remain.

[$5 Milkshake]

I'm willing to take Peter David's advice and HOPE that X-Factor will truly be revitalized.

Yeah, I'm willing to try to love X-Factor again. I'll check it out again around #39. What issue is it on now, anyways? I havent read it since the first post-MC issue....

[Vanish]

I am indifferent towards Siryn.

Guido and Longshot should go, though.

And a more interesting dupe should replace the Multiple Man.

[darknessatnoon]

Sage and Pulse do not fit in with the hip X-Factor people.

Fact.

Theresa and Guido should remain.

How are Theresa and Guido by any means "hip?"

Siryn is the kind of hero who fights in sweat pants and white sneakers with beer breath and a hangover at 10 in the morning. Guido is just ... Well, he's definitely far from hip! The guy is all bronzer and track pants.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Syrin should die and then Banshee should come back to life. Irony.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Siryn is the kind of hero who fights in sweat pants and white sneakers with beer breath and a hangover at 10 in the morning. Guido is just ... Well, he's definitely far from hip! The guy is all bronzer and track pants.

Hey! I'm wearing track pants, and I am arguably "hip"

[darknessatnoon]

Hey! I'm wearing track pants, and I am arguably "hip"

Are you?

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j12/paulguynj/guido12.jpg

[Prodigy55]

How are Theresa and Guido by any means "hip?"

Siryn is the kind of hero who fights in sweat pants and white sneakers with beer breath and a hangover at 10 in the morning. Guido is just ... Well, he's definitely far from hip! The guy is all bronzer and track pants.

Siryn and M have iPhones and go shopping in Paris.

Sage is an iPhone and reads about the history of paris.

[$5 Milkshake]

Hey! I'm wearing track pants, and I am arguably "hip"

Well, not now that you've admitted it.

[$5 Milkshake]

Are you?

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j12/paulguynj/guido12.jpg

LMAO I love the comments on the necklace and earing.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Are you?

Yuck!

How did you get that from what I just said?

PS - say no to spoilers folks!

[Omega Alpha]

Sage and Pulse only fit with Banshee, Steve Rogers, Kitty Pryde, Jean Grey, Mar-Vell, Gwen Stacy...

[darknessatnoon]

LMAO I love the comments on the necklace and earing.

He even looks like Guido!

[Justin K.]

Syrin should die and then Banshee should come back to life. Irony.

Choke on those words :mad: and it's spelled "Siryn" too
Anyhow, alcoholic Siryn is so 90s, she's over that
She's lived in her father's shadow for a while, why not let her have the spotlight?
Though I wouldn't mind a Banshee revival myself :redface:

I agree that Guido's not that great...

[Justin K.]

I vote he trim the non-essential characters with a bloodbath.

Starting at Guido, but not ending with Longshot. We need to get rid of Theresa as well. I don't like her. She's all about religious ironies and I find those boring.

Then boost sales by bringing in Sage and Pulse.

I agree on the Sage and Guido parts
Disagree on Pulse and Siryn, well I'm on the fence with her status.
Sage seems like a good fit, with her tech experience and being on X-treme X-men helped
Who's Pulse gonna use his powers on? considering a lot of the foes lately havent been mutants...
I might agree on Siryn leaving only if it's to raise her child.

[Grunty]

While it's always nice to see writers who are open to answer questions like Mike Carey or Craig Kyle and Chris Yost, it's also good to see writers who are unwilling to give to much info to their upcomming stories because the fear it might spoil it.
Also good to know that he actualy reacts to critic made in forums like here.
The "waiting for the trades", was actualy an argument someone here made, wasn't it?

But i wonder what kind of spoiler he means? Does he mean when we start discussing the newest issues here, on the day they come out?

[gorthon616]

I think they need to get a high-profile mutant character on the team.

I mean Darwin and Longshot? Please. No wonder the book is doing bad if they traded Layla and Rahne for them. Not only are they rather personalities characters, they don't have any real connections to the characters nor do their backgrounds really breed all that much for X-Factor stories.

If Nightcrawler is leaving the X-Men, I'd love for him to join this team. His ability works for detective stuff, and being Catholic could potentially be a plot point between him and Siryn. He also has ties to other X-characters making there be much more sensible high-profile guest stars and might even bring Mystique as a villain to the X-Factor fold (who would be perfect for the Noir theme).

Him + Layla's return + hopefully Rahne's return at some point in time (I do enjoy X-Force but I hope her presence there is limited as she really belongs on X-Factor long term) would really catapult the book in my opinion.

[Justin K.]

I think they need to get a high-profile mutant character on the team.

I mean Darwin and Longshot? Please. No wonder the book is doing bad if they traded Layla and Rahne for them. Not only are they rather personalities characters, they don't have any real connections to the characters nor do their backgrounds really breed all that much for X-Factor stories.

If Nightcrawler is leaving the X-Men, I'd love for him to join this team. His ability works for detective stuff, and being Catholic could potentially be a plot point between him and Siryn. He also has ties to other X-characters making there be much more sensible high-profile guest stars and might even bring Mystique as a villain to the X-Factor fold (who would be perfect for the Noir theme).

Him + Layla's return + hopefully Rahne's return at some point in time (I do enjoy X-Force but I hope her presence there is limited as she really belongs on X-Factor long term) would really catapult the book in my opinion.

I really like that idea :smile:

[Waterlily]

I really like the Siryn & M duo far to much to want to see Theresa leave. I don't pay attetion to the Catholicism and alcoholism, it gets quickly dumped out of my memory banks. Plus, I'm happy to see a pregnant character that might actually get to be a mother.

I'm undecided on whether or not I'd want to see Guido leave.

[claimtosubclaim]

PAD used to say that he'd love to have Nightcrawler on the team. And with Nightcrawler leaving the X-Men soon...

one can pray he'll land in PAD's hands, all the while booting Longshot. He doesn't deserve Monet.

[Petes Pants]

I understand where David is coming from here. I just started reading comics again a little over a year ago (I say that a lot on here) so I'm still easing into the idea of the current state of the industry. I liked being surprised every month. Sure, I read little previews in Wizard or Hero but it was nothing like it is today. So I get it.

I just wish he didn't sound so angry about it. It's alienating. Plus, he's had years to get used to this. I agree with Pach that like it or not, people are going to spoil these issues. The internet is what it is and there's no way to turn back time. Asking politely for people to try to respect his wishes is one thing. Calling people (most of whom mean well) ruiners is another.

[Radical_dreamer]

I'm going to have to call BS on this whole thing. People are acting like this is some grand stand on the state of the comic industry in regards to solits and previews when really, it's just a writer, normally a good writer, circumventing the fact that for the past 15 issues or his title has been a complete mess.

This whole bringing in of the issue of spoilers out of left field left a bad taste in my mouth. The entire message of this interview was "Not my fault its been sucking; it's the internet! Talk about that! But keep buying! I won't tell you why but I swear its gonna be awesome!" :rolleyes:

Interviews are usually a chance for writers to tease (without necessarily spoiling) and explain their thought process when it comes to the last few issues of their runs. Say what you want about Morrison for example, but the man knows how to give an interview. Those things should be printed with TPBs they're that good. You don't have to agree with it, but you feel happy to have read it. Millar on the other hand knows how to hype a title to an insane degree, engaging you with the read.

X-Factor is a title with amazing potential but a lot of the problems with it come from David's writing, nothing else....He never truly made it a team book in my subjective opinion. Its been "Madrox now with a supporting cast that doesn't know what to do with itself" since the first arc. Though to be fair, the art on the last run has been known to cause car accidents but I digress. This just read as smug, evasive and tacky. You don't want to talk about the book.....don't give an interview!

My 0.02

[Peter David]

Sage and Pulse would add glamor and sex to the comic. They are incredibly sensual characters. That's all you need to know other than that they would be incredibly helpful in both detective work and combating Sentinels.

Guido is not a racial minority (though, he is an "ethnic white"), and those are the comic relief that tend to bite it. I just find him useless, and his distorted body hurts my eyes. Plus, he hasn't had one plot in the entire series. The sheriff thing got derailed, and nada since then.

I think Rahne is a more interesting Catholic than Theresa.

Good trick considering Rahne is Presbyterian.

PAD

[Mikl C]

I am willing to give it another go.

Stroman's gone, right?

[claimtosubclaim]

This whole bringing in of the issue of spoilers out of left field left a bad taste in my mouth. The entire message of this interview was "Not my fault its been sucking; it's the internet! Talk about that! But keep buying! I won't tell you why but I swear its gonna be awesome!" :rolleyes:


You must have missed the part where he admitted to the drop in content quality as well as the drift from "noir" tone.


Interviews are usually a chance for writers to tease (without necessarily spoiling) and explain their thought process when it comes to the last few issues of their runs. Say what you want about Morrison for example, but the man knows how to give an interview. Those things should be printed with TPBs they're that good. You don't have to agree with it, but you feel happy to have read it. Millar on the other hand knows how to hype a title to an insane degree, engaging you with the read.

I find that Millar's hype actually raises my expectations too high, and the end result is always that I'm disappointed in his shoddy execution of grand concepts.

Now I realize that people just want to read interviews where the creative team is playing nice, but I didn't find anything wrong with this interview either. Many fans are oversensitive. And I have to concur, people who put up spoilers *are* "Ruiners". I appreciate them because they often determine whether or not I buy a book, but there's no sugarcoating what the act is. Reading them before reading the actual book lessens my enjoyment of cliffhangers, plot twists, big emotional beats, etc.

[MarvelGirlBoy]

I'll buy 39 because PAD asked so nicely.

It'd be nice to be back on board with X-Factor, as I've felt a little lost recently with Uncanny so pisspoorawful that even the ironic amusement has worn off, and the KillForce bandwagon chugging on without me.

I'd like to see Theresa as a mother in a 'superhero' comic too. I hate how all children are considered hindrances and therefore carted off to dystopian futures to grow into sexually mature characters.

There really ought to be a culling of Guido and Longshot though. Go, Sentinels!

[darknessatnoon]

Good trick considering Rahne is Presbyterian.

PAD

Oyyyy!!!! I get confused about all the Christian sects. I was raised Muslim.

I wouldn't be averse to a "Monet & Sage face Islam" plot.

[frog]

I can see why PAD would be angry if he believes that spoilers hurt the sales of the book, but they've never made a difference to me. A good story isn't ruined by foreknowledge of the plot. Many elements make up my enjoyment in reading, and surprise twists are low on the list.

Killing off characters to create drama doesn't rate very highly either. I tend to find them much more compelling when they are alive and active.

[MartinRedmond]

Guido is awesome. I don't know why nobody else but PD uses him.

[Waterlily]

I can see why PAD would be angry if he believes that spoilers hurt the sales of the book, but they've never made a difference to me. A good story isn't ruined by foreknowledge of the plot. Many elements make up my enjoyment in reading, and surprise twists are low on the list.

Killing off characters to create drama doesn't rate very highly either. I tend to find them much more compelling when they are alive and active.

Killing off characters is a great way to get me disinterested in book.

[darknessatnoon]

Guido is awesome. I don't know why nobody else but PD uses him.

CC used him (originally?). I remember him saving Dazzler after she was on a drug binge and washed up on Lila Cheney's private beach.

He was also in Storm: The Arena. He helped move all the gladiators into the Dyson Sphere (or whatever it's called). He's fine when he's actually used. I thought he'd be a nice counter-point to Val Cooper's anal retentiveness as sheriff of Mutant Town, but they moved to Detroit so that plot ended.

I think a reverse move, involving Guido in organized crime, might be interesting (barring my proposed bloodbath).

[Dusty.]

I enjoy something more when I read spoilers. It's the execution that things live and die by, not knowing details. I get pumped when I know what to look forward to, and when the writer and artist deliver...wooohoooo!!!!!! Good times!

I think that there is a simple solution. If you don't like spoilers, don't read them, and it's probably best to use common sense and not even hang out at messageboards where people are talking about books that they just read. It's all about self control.

As far as X-Factor "turning around", it used to be my second favorite book behind Captain America when Raimondi started out, but one arc from Khoi Pham killed my enthusiasm. Never really got it back consistantly again. I think that it'll take more than 3 simple issues, it'll take about 12 in a row of greatness.

Valentine's art is solid, but I wouldn't call it breathtaking. He needs a stronger inker or colorist to get to the next level.

[nikbackm]

I can't think of anything except a crossover or change in the cast that would triple the sales. Since there's no crossover on the horizon I assume Wolverine will join yet another team.

[Vanish]

I can't think of anything except a crossover or change in the cast that would triple the sales. Since there's no crossover on the horizon I assume Wolverine will join yet another team.

Maybe She-Hulk's joining. :confused:

I would truly love it if Nightcrawler joined though. Don't know how much his image/name would boost sales, but it would provide a more known face to X-Factor and story possibilities that gorthon described.

[Twisted Bliss]

Oop’s Excuse me…. I dropped a ‘Ruiner’. Don’t worry I’ll crack a window.


Seriously though I am half incensed by PAD’s comments and half in agreement with him. (Not that I’d consider myself indecisive… well I don’t think I am, but maybe….:rolleyes: )

I do like spoilers. I consider them to be the appetizers before the main course. Something small that gives the flavour of what to expect. Something to tantalise, and tease. You know. Like foreplay, except without all the moaning ( well sometimes at least depends if ice or chili sauce is in play)

On the other hand, I resent the assertion that by providing spoilers someone is doing something inherently ‘wrong’ or inconsiderate, or even as far as PAD would have us believe ‘Destructive’ to the very medium, the comic book itself, that we are, in the majority, interested in reading, looking, and owning. I find it troubling that someone who is known to be as creative as he would launch such an unabashed verbal dressing down of the people (again heres my caveat) that in the majority are his customers. Without his fan base, without the people willing to pay to read his stories he wouldn’t be doing so well. So here’s a thought, I’ll just throw it out there and see if he or anyone bites (not that I’m after a confrontation, but I dislike the manner in which he has chosen to treat his fans and customers) why not take the time to show people some respect. Treat others the way you’d like to be treated. Yes I will concede there does exist a vocal minority who may whinge, bicker, and denigrate, but they are just that ‘THE MINORITY.’ Those who like your work, will be buying in regardless of what some nay saying ‘holier than thou’ heckler might be saying, and in some cases that could be very much in spite of it.

The spoiler issues are there, they have existed for a long time, and they will always exist. As a writer its your chance to prove your worth. Whoever said that satisfaction isn’t necessarily in the arriving at your destination, but in experiencing the journey itself has a point. As a writer whom I consider to be one of talent, and merit I would hope you believe this to be true. So why not try to work with the system rather than berate it. Just because the ending has been exposed doesn’t necessarily ruin the entire experience. Being spoken to in a condescending manner by someone whose work I admire is far more traumatic. Hey don't fret though. I’m a big boy. I’ll get over it. But the fact remains alienating your fans isn’t going to help you. Please come discuss this issue since it is obviously such a thorn in your side. Work with us, respect us the way in which we respect you. Discourse is good, and helpful. Its better than dragging peoples butts through the court system over intellectual property rights ! (Believe me the UK courts are just as over subscribed and chock full of time consuming paperwork as the US courts)

Right that’s my point to PAD over with, here’s back to the over exposure of spoilerific details. Yes Spoilers have their place, yes I read them, yes I have been known to beg for them (amongst other things) but personally as I've said I think they operate best as tasters, snippets to entice the potential purchaser to buy, to have everything out on display can be very unappealing (I’ve said that before and got a slap for my efforts).

Ultimately I think that its very much a personal choice. Those that relay spoilers shouldn’t feel they are doing something wrong, they should just ensure that everything is well signposted. ‘Teasers’ or ‘BIG FAT ASS SPOILERS’ They are doing the community a service. They entice new readers, and potential purchasers of a comic book, they can also forewarn others when something is clearly not up to par. I’m grateful to those that spoil and those that write the stories and produce the art. Now if they can only work together the world would be sunshine and lollipops (but with credit crunch sprinkles)

[Lester C.]

Peter's crusade is doomed simply by the fact that Marvel themselves have spoiled much of what happens in the solicits? You could hear Peter banging his head against a wall each time the interviewer brought up a major plot point revealed months ago. And like it or not books that aren’t spoiled are the ones that no one is talking about and there is no buzz for. Lack of spoilers equal apathy for a title and that can’t be good.

Here the thing I don’t get. Why do we matter? Only a few hundred, or best a couple thousand of us, will read a spoiler thread. The fact is that the internet has no effect on comic book sales, if it did Jeph Loeb and Christopher Priest sales numbers would be reversed.

[darknessatnoon]

I think you pro-Ruiner people are getting a little self-righteous and are being more than a little disingenuous. Spoilers do lessen the likelihood that someone will go out and buy the comic. They also lessen the impact of it. I refuse to read spoilers for X-Force (though I did get a nice little, spoily, unlabeled, unsolicited, PM for the latest issue in my in-box) because that comic relies on shocks. On the other hand, I welcome Uncanny X-Men spoilers because I don't really give a damn what happens in that book and I only buy it to mock it with my co-workers -- but sometimes it takes me a couple of months to get around to buying it.

And to be honest, some of our review threads get a little extreme on the details with panel by panel recaps.

He's just asking us to exercise a little self-control. No need to get all dramatic about it. If he were defending Longshot, I could see why you would have reason to be upset, but that's not the case here.

[Twisted Bliss]

.....If he were defending Longshot, I could see why you would have reason to be upset, but that's not the case here.

DONT say such HENIOUS things...... EVER

(I'll have nightmares now)

[worstblogever]

As someone who writes detailed summary threads...

I've cut back on the details since I started doing them, realizing if I described it too in depth, I could make it irrelevant for people to go out and buy the book. Hell, I rarely post scans in my reviews anymore, to at least leave the art.

It's a real fine line, and a tough one to walk, as a fan. You're excited, you want to get onto your online community, and share thoughts without making people not go buy the book.

And, posting the whole thing, a la Scans Daily? Lame. A discussion that's clear, and doesn't mislead anyone about happens, is the goal I have when I do a summary thread. The last "Old Man Logan" really didn't need an in depth summary, and I didn't give it one, for example.

Really, saying SPOILERS mean people won't buy a book is a bit of a fallacy. I think we all read online that Snape killed Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, but last I checked, that think the book still sold quite nicely.

[Lester C.]

I think you pro-Ruiner people are getting a little self-righteous and are being more than a little disingenuous. Spoilers do lessen the likelihood that someone will go out and buy the comic. They also lessen the impact of it. I refuse to read spoilers for X-Force (though I did get a nice little, spoily, unlabeled, unsolicited, PM for the latest issue in my in-box) because that comic relies on shocks. On the other hand, I welcome Uncanny X-Men spoilers because I don't really give a damn what happens in that book and I only buy it to mock it with my co-workers -- but sometimes it takes me a couple of months to get around to buying it.

And to be honest, some of our review threads get a little extreme on the details with panel by panel recaps.

He's just asking us to exercise a little self-control. No need to get all dramatic about it. If he were defending Longshot, I could see why you would have reason to be upset, but that's not the case here.

I've been reading comics off and on since 1995. Even before the rise of the internet fans were getting huge spoilers from Wizard and other publication. In terms of spoilers, other than the fact you no longer have to pay for it, nothing changed since 1995. Other than causing the current fanbase represented on the web to fight amongst themselves I don't see how Peter's request is going to help the book.

Here is what going to happen. When the next issue ships someone is going to go into a detailed spoiled laden review either to be informative, offer an opinion piece or just to be snarky. Then people on the forum aren't going to be debating the merits of the issue but rather get into a yelling match.

[Twisted Bliss]

As someone who writes detailed summary threads...

I've cut back on the details since I started doing them, realizing if I described it too in depth, I could make it irrelevant for people to go out and buy the book. Hell, I rarely post scans in my reviews anymore, to at least leave the art.

It's a real fine line, and a tough one to walk, as a fan. You're excited, you want to get onto your online community, and share thoughts without making people not go buy the book.

And, posting the whole thing, a la Scans Daily? Lame. A discussion that's clear, and doesn't mislead anyone about happens, is the goal I have when I do a summary thread. The last "Old Man Logan" really didn't need an in depth summary, and I didn't give it one, for example.

Really, saying SPOILERS mean people won't buy a book is a bit of a fallacy. I think we all read online that Snape killed Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, but last I checked, that think the book still sold quite nicely.

YOU *^&&% STUPID $£%£$ Dumb %^$% I hadn't read HP & the HBP....

That said I totally agree. I like snippets, and spoilers that tease. At the moment I'm big into X-Infernus and will beg steal, and sell my own grandmother (Its alright, she's like a homeing pigeon. Straight back in time for bingo) for details, spoilers, whatever. I'm still going to buy the issues though because what I have, what I have seen online, the fact its written by a good writer, and the fantastic art. Throw in my favourite character and its a sure thing. Like dating a hooker. Its going to happen, the party is certain !

[timbox]

It makes no sense to read spoilers for a book you are planning on reading. They take away from the story and lesson the impact it has.

If I already know how a story ends, the ending leads my reading. I want the story to lead me to the end.

Exercise some self control.

[Lester C.]

It makes no sense to read spoilers for a book you are planning on reading. They take away from the story and lesson the impact it has.

If I already know how a story ends, the ending leads my reading. I want the story to lead me to the end.

Exercise some self control.

Unless the spoiler is in the thread title, which I will admit is a jerk move, whether or not a person chooses to get spoiled is a choice. A person must chose to click on the thread marked for spoilers or where spoilers are assumed to be given and then chose to be spoiled and then in some choices chose to be mad. If anyone needs self control it's them because they are making choices they know they are going to regret and get angry over. By saying we can't read or write spoilers people are advocating removal of choice and censorship and I will NEVER support that.

[timbox]

Unless the spoiler is in the thread title, which I will admit is a jerk move, whether or not a person chooses to get spoiled is a choice. A person must chose to click on the thread marked for spoilers or where spoilers are assumed to be given and then chose to be spoiled and then in some choices chose to be mad. If anyone needs self control it's them because they are making choices they know they are going to regret and get angry over. By saying we can't read or write spoilers people are advocating removal of choice and censorship and I will NEVER support that.

I agree. I was addressing the weak-minded individuals who often can't wait the time it would take to go to their LCS and read the actual issue.

From now on I am reporting every post asking for spoilers, I know I will have Cronin's support.

[Pro]

It would help if spoilers weren't posted until two days after the issue comes out because it kinda sucks having to catch up with all the posts made by american readers who get the issue first.

[worstblogever]

It would help if spoilers weren't posted until two days after the issue comes out because it kinda sucks having to catch up with all the posts made by american readers who get the issue first.

I'm still trying to understand why the Europeans had to wait for two days to discuss this past week's issues when some got them on the 31st, and we had to wait until the 2nd, because of postal delays. Seems a double standard, on that front.

[timbox]

I think the new standard set by Cronin is no spoilers until the issue has been released in Egypt.

[Pro]

I'm still trying to understand why the Europeans had to wait for two days to discuss this past week's issues when some got them on the 31st, and we had to wait until the 2nd, because of postal delays. Seems a double standard, on that front.

It is a double standard.

[Lester C.]

It is a double standard.

That must have only been on this fourm because they were spoilers everywhere else days before our comics shipped. I

[tornshattered]

If he kills or does something bad to the baby, I'm dropping the book.

[Lester C.]

If he kills or does something bad to the baby, I'm dropping the book.

There was a noncontinuity story of a major comic book character where he did kill the baby. Come to think of it there is also an in-continuity character where he did kill the baby. Come to think of it there have also been other incidents where baby/little kids have been killed in dramatic ways by Peter in his novels and comics. Intresting that now that I'm thinking about it.

[Pro]

If he kills or does something bad to the baby, I'm dropping the book.

well the baby is bound to have some story happening to him and X-Factor isn't exactly a book where everything ends up shiney and happy by the end of the story.

[tornshattered]

well the baby is bound to have some story happening to him and X-Factor isn't exactly a book where everything ends up shiney and happy by the end of the story.


If Val kidnapps the baby, I'm okay with it. If he hurts the baby in any physical way, X-F's dropped.

[nikbackm]

well the baby is bound to have some story happening to him and X-Factor isn't exactly a book where everything ends up shiney and happy by the end of the story.

Is that possibly a... spoiler?!

[Twisted Bliss]

Is that possibly a... spoiler?!

ARRGGGHHH !!!

[Michael P]

Exercise some self control.

You are aware of what board you're on, correct?

[Pro]

You are aware of what board you're on, correct?

*rubs up against Michael P's leg*

[timbox]

You are aware of what board you're on, correct?

All I see around here are a bunch of victims.

[tornshattered]

All I see around here are a bunch of victims.

Me as well? :frown:

[Peter David]

So here’s a thought, I’ll just throw it out there and see if he or anyone bites (not that I’m after a confrontation, but I dislike the manner in which he has chosen to treat his fans and customers) why not take the time to show people some respect. Treat others the way you’d like to be treated. )

As a kid reading comics, the internet didn't exist. And when story developments happened, when they took twists and turns, I was shocked, stunned, amazed. And I had no idea what was going to happen next.

Good times. Higher sales, too, for a variety of reasons, starting with that comics were twelve cents. But certainly story developments always being a surprise contributed.

I'm not stupid. I'm not naive. I know that things have changed. I know that it can't go back to the way it was. But still...

The writers of the play "Sleuth" had a disclaimer in their program book. It begged theater goers not to blow the twists and turns of "Sleuth" for anyone who had not seen the play. "Allow them to experience this play the way we, the authors, intended it to be experienced," they said.

Because they had consideration for their audience. As part of the audience, I appreciated that.

At the insistence of Alfred Hitchcock, the studios releasing "Psycho" instructed theaters not to seat anyone in the theater after the first half hour. There was a specific reason he had for doing so: He didn't want latecomers whispering to each other, "Where's Janet Leigh? Isn't she in this movie?", ruining for themselves and disrupting people who were already there. Had I been one of those theater goers (it wasn't exactly age appropriate for me during its theatrical release) I would have appreciated that.

Don't you understand?

I *am* treating others the way I would like to be treated.


PAD

[Peter David]

Here the thing I don’t get. Why do we matter? Only a few hundred, or best a couple thousand of us, will read a spoiler thread. The fact is that the internet has no effect on comic book sales, if it did Jeph Loeb and Christopher Priest sales numbers would be reversed.

Because every single reader deserves to enjoy the story in the way it's intended.

You don't understand: This has far less to do with sales than it does with simple enjoyment.

Let me put it to you another way:

Did someone ever ask you to tell them about something that happened to someone else, and you demurred by saying, "It's not my story to tell."

X-Factor #39, 40, 41...it's not your story to tell. It's your story to enjoy. That's what your money buys you. It's your story to enjoy. Every one of those few hundred or few thousand, it's their story to enjoy.

It's MY story to tell. And, no offense, but the odds are spectacular that I'm going to tell it better than you will, because that's what I'm paid to do. So I would really, really like everyone who pays their hard-earned money to get their money's worth through a story told to the best of MY ability, not to the best of the ability of a guy signing himself Skippy123. Because I think that anyone who buys comics these days deserves the best I have to offer.

And if someone has a problem with that--if you think it elitist or snotty or benighted or what have you--I totally understand. Me...I just think it's simple, common courtesy.

PAD

[Peter David]

Unless the spoiler is in the thread title, which I will admit is a jerk move, whether or not a person chooses to get spoiled is a choice. A person must chose to click on the thread marked for spoilers or where spoilers are assumed to be given and then chose to be spoiled and then in some choices chose to be mad. If anyone needs self control it's them because they are making choices they know they are going to regret and get angry over. By saying we can't read or write spoilers people are advocating removal of choice and censorship and I will NEVER support that.

As a board member of the CBLDF, I'm pretty comfortable with my free speech cred.

I didn't say you can't read or write spoilers, which would be--well--stupid, if nothing else.

I said I wished you wouldn't.

I would hope you could discern the difference.

PAD

[Mr_Hellfire]

I love this, seriously, I've pretty much made the decision that I'm not renewing my X-Factor this year, but now I'm reconsidering and plan to keep tabs on it, as soon as he delivers, I'm back with X-Factor. This sounded like Morrison when he was trying to revitalize X-Men, I think all of the X-Men universe should follow.

[Peter David]

IThen people on the forum aren't going to be debating the merits of the issue but rather get into a yelling match.

The notion of fans engaging in a little loud self-reflection actually doesn't bother me all that much. Getting into an argument over the rightness or wrongness of what is, for many, accepted behavior might be instructive. The unexamined life is not worth living.

PAD

[tornshattered]

I love this, seriously, I've pretty much made the decision that I'm not renewing my X-Factor this year, but now I'm reconsidering and plan to keep tabs on it, as soon as he delivers, I'm back with X-Factor. This sounded like Morrison when he was trying to revitalize X-Men, I think all of the X-Men universe should follow.

Yeah, and not in a way "Let's blow up the beautiful mansion and militarise the X-Men.", or "let's make Cyclops a killer, we'll see what happens"

The notion of fans engaging in a little loud self-reflection actually doesn't bother me all that much. Getting into an argument over the rightness or wrongness of what is, for many, accepted behavior might be instructive. The unexamined life is not worth living.

PAD

PAD, I love you, I really do. But please don't kill the baby. You will be in an uncharted territory, if you let him live happily with his parents. And if you were able to pick anyone to join your X-Factor team, who would you choose?

[Your Imaginary Pal]

pretty off topic, but...
Strangely it was Peter David's site that Led me to CBR in the first place.
I was researching Breezly Bruin and found his site through google, and he had a link here.
And the funny thing is I never got around to doing anything with the images of Breezly Bruin I found.
(I think I was going to make a t-shirt for a friend, or my college homecoming...I went with yogi, a bear is the school's mascot)

sorry for the flashback, just thought about it all after all these years, and if he could lead me to such a wonderful place, I'm sure he'll lead X-Factor to a level of acclaim they deserve.

I just hope he doesn't do the devoid of substance, shock writng his contemporaries are known for. But since he's not working off speculation and hype like others do, I think it will be a sincere and natural story.

[Peter David]

You don't want to talk about the book.....don't give an interview!

My 0.02

[/COLOR]

I didn't give an interview. The reporter contacted me, asking me to talk about X-Factor. I wrote him a detailed e-mail explaining why I wasn't going to give an interview and my reasoning behind it. He asked if he could run that as an interview. I told him sure.

PAD

[timbox]

That baby is a liability that needs to be dealt with immediately before it puts the entire team at risk. Give it to Bishop and tell him it is the Messiah baby.

[Swashbuckler]

Peter,

I'd just like to say thanks for being awesome. I love your work on X-Factor and appreciate your posts here on the forums. I am looking foward to this new story arc VERY much. I also hope we soon get a rematch between Feral and Wolfsbane written by you.

[Twisted Bliss]

As a kid reading comics, the internet didn't exist. And when story developments happened, when they took twists and turns, I was shocked, stunned, amazed. And I had no idea what was going to happen next.

Good times. Higher sales, too, for a variety of reasons, starting with that comics were twelve cents. But certainly story developments always being a surprise contributed.

I'm not stupid. I'm not naive. I know that things have changed. I know that it can't go back to the way it was. But still...

The writers of the play "Sleuth" had a disclaimer in their program book. It begged theater goers not to blow the twists and turns of "Sleuth" for anyone who had not seen the play. "Allow them to experience this play the way we, the authors, intended it to be experienced," they said.

Because they had consideration for their audience. As part of the audience, I appreciated that.

At the insistence of Alfred Hitchcock, the studios releasing "Psycho" instructed theaters not to seat anyone in the theater after the first half hour. There was a specific reason he had for doing so: He didn't want latecomers whispering to each other, "Where's Janet Leigh? Isn't she in this movie?", ruining for themselves and disrupting people who were already there. Had I been one of those theater goers (it wasn't exactly age appropriate for me during its theatrical release) I would have appreciated that.

Don't you understand?

I *am* treating others the way I would like to be treated.


PAD

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comments.

As you have acknowledged the market place for comics, in which you operate, has changed. I completely agree. This is due in no small part to technical progression and of course economic issues. The internet can ping the ending of a story millions of miles in seconds. However this doesnt necessarily have to be seen as a death knell for the manner in which you would like your stories to be told.

Spoilers are in my opinion a matter of choice, what appeared to me to be a blanket condemnation of them, and those that discuss them, came across, in my opinion, as unnecessarily harsh (granted this may just be my warped defensive interpretation and I have grasped the wrong end of the stick)

I treat spoiler threads as a review. I prefer them to the glossy magazines, because they are in the main, written by the fans, for the fans. Maybe completely or maybe just partially I expect their reaction to the work being discussed is going to mirror my own. I know what to expect when I read them if they are clearly labelled as such. Its my choice. Some I will read other I won't (I'm fickle. So sue me)

In evalutating or reviewing a book, I'd expect the reviewer to have knowledge of the material in order to give a critical opinion. Those opinions by their very nature will have to have some form of spoilers contained within in order to be relevant, accurate, and acts as proof that the reviewer has accurate knowledge of the material being discussed.

I think ultimately what is interpreted as a Spoiler requires clarification. I honestly feel that the interpretation of 'Spoilers' is entirely subjective. I have said it before, but I like teasers. Snippets of information to entice me into wanting to read more. These shouldn't be seen as negative things. Not in my opinion at any rate.

All said and done, I do understand your reactions. This is your work, and through your discussion here and in your interview you have made your feelings entirely clear. I remember sitting in a lecture theatre discussing the fact I was going to watch the film 'Seven' to which some delightful soul bellowed out from the crowd "Yeah, her head is in the box". However I still chose to go to watch the film, pay my money, see the acting (or lack of depending on your opinion). I still enjoyed it. Yes I will admit that the shock value of the ending wasn't there. But there were plenty of other shocks in the film. It was still worth experiencing it myself.

Its that last part that is important to me. I'm sorry that you feel I am not enjoying your work in exactly the manner you intended, because the fact remains I am enjoying it. Granted its not completely as you intended, but I am enjoying it nonetheless.

[Lester C.]

Yeah, and not in a way "Let's blow up the beautiful mansion and militarise the X-Men.", or "let's make Cyclops a killer, we'll see what happens"



PAD, I love you, I really do. But please don't kill the baby. You will be in an uncharted territory, if you let him live happily with his parents. And if you were able to pick anyone to join your X-Factor team, who would you choose?

Due to the continual nature of comics no one gets a happy ending unless a book is canceled and or a character goes into limbo. A good example would be when Peter David's version of Captain Marvel ended. At the end of his run Rick and Marlo were back together, Moon Dragon and Phyla hooked up. Even Genis had a long life of adventuring and loving ahead of him albeit with a little infanticide thrown in at a much later date. Then all those characters got pulled out of limbo and bad shit happened to all of them.

[Peter David]

Peter,

I'd just like to say thanks for being awesome. I love your work on X-Factor and appreciate your posts here on the forums. I am looking foward to this new story arc VERY much. I also hope we soon get a rematch between Feral and Wolfsbane written by you.

Thank you. And in the words of Kung Fu Panda: There is no charge for awesomeness. (I'm actually thinking of putting that on a sign when I do conventions considering I'm routinely asked how much I charge for an autograph.)

PAD

[Lester C.]

Peter I just wanted to state that while I still passionately disagree with you it was a real humbling experience to have you respond to my posts. I am deeply honored that such a revered figure in my life would take the time to talk to me.

[tornshattered]

Peter I just wanted to state that while I still passionately disagree with you it was a real humbling experience to have you respond to my posts. I am deeply honored that such a revered figure in my life would take the time to talk to me.

He's human like the rest of us, don't forget that.


Extremely talented, but still human.

[Lester C.]

He's human like the rest of us, don't forget that.


Extremely talented, but still human.

Here how much of an impact Peter had on my life. When I was 11 I hated school and wasn't aware of science fiction. I picked up A Rock and A Hard Place thinking it was a Choose You Own Adventure novel and got hooked on reading, learning and science fiction. I can honestly say Peter David changed my life and helped plot the current course I'm on. So to have him quote me, even if he disagrees with everything I said, is a big deal. a HUGE deal.

[Peter David]

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comments.

As you have acknowledged the market place for comics, in which you operate, has changed. I completely agree. This is due in no small part to technical progression and of course economic issues. The internet can ping the ending of a story millions of miles in seconds. However this doesn't necessarily have to be seen as a death knell for the manner in which you would like your stories to be told.

Not told. Experienced. I'm going to continue to tell them to the best of my ability, and one of those ways includes trying to catch people off guard. To give them shocking moments that they could not possibly have expected. Hard to do when they're told what to expect.

Spoilers are in my opinion a matter of choice, what appeared to me to be a blanket condemnation of them, and those that discuss them, came across, in my opinion, as unnecessarily harsh (granted this may just be my warped defensive interpretation and I have grasped the wrong end of the stick)

I wasn't going for harsh so much as I was blunt. I'm not out to sit in judgment of people or to condemn them. I am simply voicing frustration over the conditions that routinely make it difficult for people to experience the story the way I want them to. And if you're wondering, Who is this guy to tell us how to experience the story, the answer is, I'm the guy who wrote it.

Let me put it to you this way: You guys are anxious to know what's coming up. I understand that. But you have to realize that when I write a story, *I* am anxious to see the reactions of the fans when they read it. When people go around blowing the details of the story, and others then discuss the descriptions rather than having read the story itself, the months of anticipation I've had for the fans to read the story are blown.

All said and done, I do understand your reactions. This is your work, and through your discussion here and in your interview you have made your feelings entirely clear. I remember sitting in a lecture theatre discussing the fact I was going to watch the film 'Seven' to which some delightful soul bellowed out from the crowd "Yeah, her head is in the box". However I still chose to go to watch the film, pay my money, see the acting (or lack of depending on your opinion). I still enjoyed it. Yes I will admit that the shock value of the ending wasn't there. But there were plenty of other shocks in the film. It was still worth experiencing it myself.

Yes, but don't you think that the writer, director, and cast and crew of the film would have wanted to put into a box the head of the idiot who shouted that out? To them, it doesn't matter that you found other things to enjoy. You were still robbed of the power of the story they worked so hard to produce.

PAD

[Mitsaso]

PAD is right.
God knows I'm very interested in those upcoming issues!

Although even when you just say "I dont wanna talk about this and spoil those specific three issues", it still does raise expectations, and that might dissapoint some people who were waiting for bigger or different stuff in the long run.

I know PAD won't go for the easy thrill of a shock death or whatever. Maybe it's something else... like Layla is the baby! :tongue:

[MartinRedmond]

I know it's not a democracy! But I grew up reading american serials all out of order and knowing what was next or even the ending, has never screwed up my enjoyment of the books I liked.

[darknessatnoon]

PAD is right.
God knows I'm very interested in those upcoming issues!

Although even when you just say "I dont wanna talk about this and spoil those specific three issues", it still does raise expectations, and that might dissapoint some people who were waiting for bigger or different stuff in the long run.

I know PAD won't go for the easy thrill of a shock death or whatever. Maybe it's something else... like Layla is the baby! :tongue:

That would be interesting, especially in light of her future marriage to Jaime.

[passer-by]

Unless the spoiler is in the thread title, which I will admit is a jerk move, whether or not a person chooses to get spoiled is a choice. A person must chose to click on the thread marked for spoilers or where spoilers are assumed to be given and then chose to be spoiled and then in some choices chose to be mad.I agree with that.
Unfortunately sometimes you get spoiled without wanting to. Like here we had a short review of the movie "The Sixth Sense" which said, and I quote:

S
P
O
I
L
E
R



A dead psychiatrist helps a little boy who is seeing dead people.:biggrin:








END SPOILERS (I can't find the spoiler tag :frown: - could a mod hide it?)
Luckily, I had already seen it, but if I hadn't I would have been pretty mad, I assure you.

And a literary example - imagine someone casually tells you who the killer is in Agatha Christie's "The murder of Roger Ackroyd". :biggrin:

[Lester C.]

I agree with that.
Unfortunately sometimes you get spoiled without wanting to. Like here we had a short review of the movie "The Sixth Sense" which said, and I quote:

S
P
O
I
L
E
R



A dead psychiatrist helps a little boy who is seeing dead people.:biggrin:








END SPOILERS (I can't find the spoiler tag :frown: - could a mod hide it?)
Luckily, I had already seen it, but if I hadn't I would have been pretty mad, I assure you.

And a literary example - imagine someone casually tells you who the killer is in Agatha Christie's "The murder of Roger Ackroyd". :biggrin:

That was a poorly written review, but when people read reviews they expect to be spoiled enough to decide whether or not to see the movie or read the book. They then don't get to complain the movie and book were ruined for them because they knew what they were getting into. The same thing happens when people click on a review thread for a comic marked for spoilers. If the writer is good he or she will review it but not ruin the experience. If the writer is bad or wants to vent or just doesn't give a crap they will tell you everything page by page. But still if you go in knowing that could happen then you need to take responsibility for your acquired knowledge not blame the reviewer for ruining the experience for you when you made to choice to be spoiled.

[passer-by]

That's precisely what I'm talking about. The choice. I prefer spoiler-free reviews and many of them help me in deciding whether or not to give my money for the book/comic book/ film etc.

In other cases I take a look at previews and more detailed reviews.

But when a writer I trust like PAD tells me to avoid any info on his coming issues, I do my best to follow his advice. And it will be pretty hard since I have to wait for the trade. Almost impossible not to get spoiled before that, but I'll take my chances.

This, though, only goes for writers I appreciate enough to buy their work with my eyes closed. And they're not very many.

[Twisted Bliss]

Not told. Experienced. I'm going to continue to tell them to the best of my ability, and one of those ways includes trying to catch people off guard. To give them shocking moments that they could not possibly have expected. Hard to do when they're told what to expect.



I wasn't going for harsh so much as I was blunt. I'm not out to sit in judgment of people or to condemn them. I am simply voicing frustration over the conditions that routinely make it difficult for people to experience the story the way I want them to. And if you're wondering, Who is this guy to tell us how to experience the story, the answer is, I'm the guy who wrote it.

Let me put it to you this way: You guys are anxious to know what's coming up. I understand that. But you have to realize that when I write a story, *I* am anxious to see the reactions of the fans when they read it. When people go around blowing the details of the story, and others then discuss the descriptions rather than having read the story itself, the months of anticipation I've had for the fans to read the story are blown.



Yes, but don't you think that the writer, director, and cast and crew of the film would have wanted to put into a box the head of the idiot who shouted that out? To them, it doesn't matter that you found other things to enjoy. You were still robbed of the power of the story they worked so hard to produce.

PAD

I understand your desire and hope that we, the fans, experience the stories in the manner you intended. It’s a noble, and honest response for which I am grateful.

My considered response is to counter that the writer may not always understand how the recipients will respond. Nor necessarily know what is the best way for the story to be experienced and I say this with utmost respect and hope no offence is taken.
Since we started using films as an analogy I'll continue, specifically referring to the latest Che based film. In short I loved it. Thought it was fantastic, however the director filmed it as one movie. He intended it to be one film. The 3 hour epic was shown at Cannes last year. It won rave reviews, but its downfall was that it was too long. This is why it was split into two parts. The creator was so consumed by his vision and the manner of conveying this story, wanting others to experience it how he thought it should be experienced was not, in this instance, right. We can discuss the merits of the Star Wars saga to further this point, but I don't think either of us would benefit from going into a discussion about watching the chapters out of sequence or if George Lucas intended them to viewed that way back when the first film came out.

As the creator of such work, although the intent exists that it be experienced in a particular fashion it doesn't automatically follow that a) it will be; b) that it has to be; or c) that it is the one and only way. Shakespeare work has been transferred to many different mediums of the course of the years. It is available in formats to be experienced in ways the author may not have intended or ever envisaged. Creative control is one thing, and having a conversation and discussing your feelings towards your work, and the desire in which you hope the recipients’ experience it is another.

I have said and I maintain I am grateful for the opportunity to experience your work, and discuss these things with you. I think that we do have differing opinions in this instance, but I respect your wishes and I will try to experience the work product in the way you would prefer. I will not say that it is better way, or worse till I have experienced it.

Thank you for your time, and for the work I have seen so far.

[Waterlily]

To Mr. David:


Thank you.

[frog]

It makes no sense to read spoilers for a book you are planning on reading. They take away from the story and lesson the impact it has.

If I already know how a story ends, the ending leads my reading. I want the story to lead me to the end.

Exercise some self control.

Don't watch Titanic.
Really, don't.


Seriously, I understand PAD's reasoning, but still do not feel spoilers have ever ruined my experience.

Those that wish to avoid spoilers can do so. As in the case of the last Harry Potter book, those that didn't want the details ahead of time knew to avoid the internet. As for this forum, the rules concerning spoilers are clear and for the most part abided by.

Those that read spoilers to avoid paying for the book are the same people that will read the book in the store and put it back on the shelf. Not honorable, but virtually impossible to prevent.

In my case, spoilers and scans have resulted in purchasing more books rather than less because they call my attention to something of interest to me.

I appreciate PAD's viewpoint and his honesty in addressing us here.

[frog]

To Mr. David:


Thank you.

That looked a little funny when combined with the quote for darkness below it. :redface:

[Peter David]

Since we started using films as an analogy I'll continue, specifically referring to the latest Che based film. In short I loved it. Thought it was fantastic, however the director filmed it as one movie. He intended it to be one film. The 3 hour epic was shown at Cannes last year. It won rave reviews, but its downfall was that it was too long. This is why it was split into two parts. The creator was so consumed by his vision and the manner of conveying this story, wanting others to experience it how he thought it should be experienced was not, in this instance, right.

It's been my experience that if a film is seen as too long, its downfall isn't is that it's too long. It's downfall is that it's a poorly made movie with pacing problems. Length isn't always a factor. "Lawrence of Arabia" seemed to fly by. So did "Titanic." On the other hand, I've been to ninety-minute films that felt like three hours. So I think it's really apples and oranges.

We can discuss the merits of the Star Wars saga to further this point, but I don't think either of us would benefit from going into a discussion about watching the chapters out of sequence or if George Lucas intended them to viewed that way back when the first film came out.

No, but more on point would be discussing when Lucas re-released the first film cleaned up and with higher powered effects. Many fans complained bitterly that Lucas did that and even asserted he had no right to do so. Lucas's contention, however, was that this was how he would have wanted the film(s) to be if he'd had the know-how and money to do it. It was the way he'd seen the film in his head, rather than what he felt was the compromised version that was initially released.

Although Han DID shoot first.

As the creator of such work, although the intent exists that it be experienced in a particular fashion it doesn't automatically follow that a) it will be; b) that it has to be; or c) that it is the one and only way. Shakespeare work has been transferred to many different mediums of the course of the years. It is available in formats to be experienced in ways the author may not have intended or ever envisaged.

Funny you should bring up Shakespeare.

I took my teen daughter to seen the Baz Luhrmann modern day "Romeo and Juliet." And most of the audience members were teens who were there to see Leo and Danes. So we're getting to the climax of the film, and Romeo is about to drink the poison, and I hear these girls behind us saying to each other (because it's a movie theater so naturally you talk like it's your living room), "Watch, she's going to wake up just in time." Which, of course, she does not. And once Juliet discovers that Romeo is dead, she picks up Romeo's gun. And the bewildered girls say, "She's going to SHOOT him, too?!" And Juliet kills herself, and there were horrified gasps from all through the theater from every teen.

They had no idea. They had no idea how the story ends.

And when the lights came up and all these teens were saying, "Can you believe that?" "They BOTH died?!" I turned to them and said, "What part of 'Star crossed lovers take their lives?' was unclear? They said it right at the beginning! TWICE!"

Now you could argue that Shakespeare willingly put spoilers right at the beginning and it sure didn't hurt the end of the show. Except it was his choice: He was going for a specific effect. He wanted the audience to sense that, even when things looked like they might end happily, tragedy was looming on the horizon. You were watching a train wreck in progress and the train passengers didn't know it was coming, which only heightened the tragedy of it. Plus, as Shakespeare also knew, many people in those days came in partway through the show. It's not like they all had wristwatches; people got there when they got there. That's why characters would routinely give lengthy summaries in the course of the play; to bring latecomers up to speed. So he knew there were still going to be plenty of people who missed the intro and would thus be stunned when the play reached its climax.

Anyway, the point is, I I ain't Shakespeare. I need all the help I can get. And allowing people to experience the story as I believe it should be experienced, with the resultant maximum effect, isn't asking too much. Although these days perhaps it is. We'll see.

PAD

[Valjean999]

For economic reasons, I only get trades nowadays. So, I am sometimes a good six months behind with everything, so there is no way that I can be free of spoilers, unfortunately.

[That JonoGuy]

I really don't understand what everyone is getting into a tizzy about. I love the fact that PAD wants to treat his audience to a full experience and not a tainted one. Funny enough, spoilers rarely have an affect on me. I tend to fully immerse myself into the story that by the time I hit the spoiler area it doesn't affect my reaction.

As far as the TPB stuff goes, that is just how i read X-Factor. I plan on sticking solely to trades for most of my titles. I don't have the money or time to get my comics monthly and TPB's offer a much better option for me.

[MarvelGirlBoy]

Killing off characters is a great way to get me disinterested in book.

Needlessly resurrecting characters performs the same service for me.

I do get turned off books that kill pointlessly, but a for pointless character like Guido only a pointless death will do.

[coconutphone]

As a kid reading comics, the internet didn't exist. And when story developments happened, when they took twists and turns, I was shocked, stunned, amazed. And I had no idea what was going to happen next.

Good times. Higher sales, too, for a variety of reasons, starting with that comics were twelve cents. But certainly story developments always being a surprise contributed.

I'm not stupid. I'm not naive. I know that things have changed. I know that it can't go back to the way it was. But still...

The writers of the play "Sleuth" had a disclaimer in their program book. It begged theater goers not to blow the twists and turns of "Sleuth" for anyone who had not seen the play. "Allow them to experience this play the way we, the authors, intended it to be experienced," they said.

Because they had consideration for their audience. As part of the audience, I appreciated that.

At the insistence of Alfred Hitchcock, the studios releasing "Psycho" instructed theaters not to seat anyone in the theater after the first half hour. There was a specific reason he had for doing so: He didn't want latecomers whispering to each other, "Where's Janet Leigh? Isn't she in this movie?", ruining for themselves and disrupting people who were already there. Had I been one of those theater goers (it wasn't exactly age appropriate for me during its theatrical release) I would have appreciated that.

Don't you understand?

I *am* treating others the way I would like to be treated.


PAD

Perfectly said and why I avoid all spoilers (comics, moveis, TV) like the plgue. If I know I'm going to read a book/see a show/movie I don't want to know even the slightest thing about it even casting and what not. Much more enjoyable going in blind.

[Justin K.]

Keeping away spoilers is a positive thing
it brings up discussion and makes a book more anticipating
heck, in the Siryn thread, there's been a lot of guessing and predicting :tongue:

[Grunty]

Perfectly said and why I avoid all spoilers (comics, moveis, TV) like the prlgue. If I know I'm going to read a book/see a show/movie I don't want to know even the slightest thing about it even casting and what not. Much more enjoyable going in blind.

Actualy now that i think about it. I usualy don't go into a thread about a comic i rally want to read (in case of X-men it's X-men Legacy and X-Factor), before i had read it.
So last issue of X-factor, when the scene with Valerie came i was actualy surprised. Lucky the artist did a good job portraing it (it was one of the best pages). I didn't expected it and didn't spoiled myself before. Only afterwards i begann reading the thread to know what others thought.

However for comics which don't fully intrest me i often look into the threads beforehand, so that i know if anything intresting happens in that issue.
Which might sometimes attract me into buying that issue.

[Michael P]

Although Han DID shoot first.

Han shot, period. Greedo just slumped over and sizzled.

[Blade X]

we wouldn't be having this problem with spoilers if comics were still mostly read by kids these days. Just another reason why the loss of a large kid readership has been a bad thing for the comic book industry.

[Jedi_Master_Clark]

Though I think X-factor isnt as good as it once was, I still thought it was pretty good.

Though the soul of the book is gone[[Layla]]. That soul despertely needs to come back.

I will continue to read x-factor.

[Wind-Breaker]

I was just browsing youtube and found a recent video of PAD further elaborating on the recent Newsarama interview during his return to the talk show "Comic Book Club": Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOOE3hlByes), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrW8l-R2JZQ) (the youtube user NJFSpidey616 is in the process posting the rest of the interview)

My take on the vids: PAD is awesome :biggrin:

My take on spoiling/summary threads: I already avoid them anyways so it’s not really a tough request for me to honor. I've enjoyed X-Factor all through out, and I'll continue to look forward to learning about the stories when I READ the stories.

[Peter David]

I was just browsing youtube and found a recent video of PAD further elaborating on the recent Newsarama interview during his return to the talk show "Comic Book Club": Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOOE3hlByes), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrW8l-R2JZQ) (the youtube user NJFSpidey616 is in the process posting the rest of the interview)

My take on the vids: PAD is awesome :biggrin:

My take on spoiling/summary threads: I already avoid them anyways so it’s not really a tough request for me to honor. I've enjoyed X-Factor all through out, and I'll continue to look forward to learning about the stories when I READ the stories.

"There is no charge for awesomeness."
--Kung Fu Panda


PAD

[jmc247]

I was just browsing youtube and found a recent video of PAD further elaborating on the recent Newsarama interview during his return to the talk show "Comic Book Club": Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOOE3hlByes), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrW8l-R2JZQ) (the youtube user NJFSpidey616 is in the process posting the rest of the interview)

My take on the vids: PAD is awesome :biggrin:


Nice videos.

[Vanish]

"There is no charge for awesomeness."
--Kung Fu Panda


PAD

LOL

Off topic, but PAD have you seen the Furious Five spin-off, and if so would you recommend it?

[Prodigy55]

I always miss PAD when he shows up.

Dear PAD.

Add Prodigy to X-Factor and I will be your best friend forever.

[John Lynch]

And my greatest desire, frankly, is for the internet to somehow develop the self-control to keep its collective mouth shut over the specifics.To be honest I think its the role of the reader to avoid the spoilers, assuming common sense and decency by other posters.

Talking about something and then suddenly saying Herome dies in the last Harry Potter book is of course terrible.* However I've seen people here be unwilling to discuss what happens in the latest issue in a thread dedicated to that issue because of what PAD has said. To me that's simply silly. Similarly if I haven't read a book yet (because I'm trade waiting or because it simply hasn't been shipped yet), I avoid threads about it.

To me self-restraint on the part of readers is needed more then on posters. The only people who are spoiled or ruined are those who choose to be spoiled. I have no idea what happens beyond:
* Amazing Spider-Man #563
* Blue Beetle #26
* Justice Society of America #12
* Captain America #36
* Skaar: Son of Hulk (at all)
* Young X-Men #5

This isn't because posters were admonished to not discuss the comics, but because I have simply avoided the threads where I would be spoiled. I also haven't read the solits.

X-Factor #39, 40, 41...it's not your story to tell. It's your story to enjoy. That's what your money buys you.I don't think these characters are Marvel's, nor do I think their story's are Marvel's or yours. I believe they belong to all of us and that it is only through copyright laws that we temporarily give up some of our rights to these stories.

The idea that you would ask me to give up even more of my rights (when I think current copyright laws are not only draconian but against the American constitution) makes me angry.

I know not everyone feels this way and for those that disagree I simply respect their right to their opinion and simply ask we agree to disagree.

One last thing I'd like to point out, I had to read the post-Messiah Complex part of X-Factor out of order. I still don't know what happens in X-Factor: Only Game in Town despite reading the last couple of issues after the SI-tie in. The ability to read a comic unspoilered truly isn't dead. Honest.

* I don't read Harry Potter. Its merely an example, not a spoiler :wink:

[John Lynch]

double post.

[Pro]

I don't think these characters are Marvel's, nor do I think their story's are Marvel's or yours. I believe they belong to all of us and that it is only through copyright laws that we temporarily give up some of our rights to these stories.

So if I'm creating something it belongs to everyone? Fuck that. I made it, it's mine. If someone else wants it they will damn well fucking pay for it!

The idea that you would ask me to give up even more of my rights (when I think current copyright laws are not only draconian but against the American constitution) makes me angry.

You have no right to someone else's work. No rights. NO RIGHTS. N-o-r-i-g-h-t-s.None, whatsoever. Nada. Zilch, zero. Zip. None. Not yours. Not in any way shape of fucking form.

You know what makes me angry, people like you ruining things for people like PAD and me. Who think they have a right to claim work that isn't theirs. Who snatch pictures form the internet feeling somehow entitled to using someone else's hard work without payment. What the fuck do you think copyright is based on? It's based on hours and hours and hours of work, spending ages to come up with something that is going to pay a little more than the fucking minimum wage people tend to pay for art and writing. That's what people pay for when they pay copyright. That's what people owe creators. Because it's one of the very few ways for creators to move up, gain some measure of financial security given the shit income most of make for the longest time of our careers.

So fuck up with your claim to other people's work.

I know not everyone feels this way and for those that disagree I simply respect their right to their opinion and simply ask we agree to disagree.

You don't get to express anger and then ask others to simply disagree.
Christ.

Sorry if I came down on you too harshly but you hit a very tender spot after a very bad year for me.

[John Lynch]

So if I'm creating something it belongs to everyone? Fuck that. I made it, it's mine. If someone else wants it they will damn well fucking pay for it!And this is why I get angry when I hear people say things like "it's not your story to tell. It's your story to enjoy. That's what your money buys you." because it reveals (in others at least) the idea that the public domain shouldn't exist.

Something that is not only unconstitutional, but also something I disagree in vehemently.

You have no right to someone else's work. No rights. NO RIGHTS. N-o-r-i-g-h-t-s.None, whatsoever. Nada. Zilch, zero. Zip. None. Not yours. Not in any way shape of fucking form.Let's say this is true. In that case I say shame on:
* Marvel for using Frankenstein without gaining permission by whoever Mary Shelley nominated to hold the copyright on the character upon her death.
* Disney for making Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs without gaining permission by whoever Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm nominated to hold the copyright upon their deaths.
* Baz Luhrmann for making a version of Romeo and Juliet without gaining permission by whoever Shakespear nominated to hold the copyright upon his death.

and finally, Shame on PAD for creating Knight Life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Life) without gaining permission from all the authors before him that contributed to the Arthurian mythology.

Of course I don't believe the above quote to be true. So I'm not actually saying shame on any of these people :wink: I'm simply demonstrating how fundamental the public domain has been to our modern culture and how the current attack on it is a terrible thing.

[EDIT]: AND JUST TO MAKE IT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, I'm not saying PAD is for or against the public domain. I don't know his opinions on the issue.

[worstblogever]

The end-splash page cliffhanger is one of the money moments in comics, after all. Sales hinge on that next issue.

Online previews, giving away the first 7 pages before the issue comes out, often reveal exactly what that cliffhanger was about to reveal.

So both halves of the cliffhanger are accessable on the internet. One comes from the readers, of course, after the issue is out, and the other is spoiled by the company itself.

It's almost like a creator has to put six or seven pages of filler up to keep a story secret anymore. You know, rather than seeing if the Vulture really killed Spidey at the end of a comic, the next one opens with three pages of Aunt May watching Matlock, and three of Betty Brant bringing J. Jonah Jameson coffee followed by one of Harry Osborn scratching his ass.

Then we get back to the result of the actual Spidey/Vulture cliffhanger.

[Arksy]

To PAD:

I humbly respect your modus operandi and i will promise to read the books as they come out and i will not have these stories spoiled to me in any way nor spoil these stories for anyone else.

I sincerely hope that these stories are as awesome as you claim they will be. If i feelt they are i will be one of the first to sing praises. :)

-Arksy.

[Pro]

I'm simply demonstrating how fundamental the public domain has been to our modern culture and how the current attack on it is a terrible thing.

No, what you are demonstrating is a complete lack of understanding about issues regarding copyright and the public domain.

ALL of the examples you cited fall into the public domain because the claims are older than 70 years. That's why they're public domain. Not because you have a right to other people's work simply because you feel entitled to use it.

You have no right to use it, to copy it, to make derivatives of the work. No rights, whatsoever. You have a right to read the single copy that you paid for. You don't have a right to do anything else with it UNLESS you buy the copyright. But you can't buy PAD's copyright because Marvel already owns it. Because Marvel pays him for the right to own characters he creates for them.

In no way, shape or form can you claim copyright on someone else's work if you don't pay for it.

Fair use allows you to use a small portion of copyrighted materials only in such a way that they don't infringe on copyright claims. And that really is the ONLY reason why spoilers are not illegal to begin with.

In federal copyright law 17 U.S.C. §§101 et seq., refers to specific use of copyrighted materials without payment of royalties or which otherwise does not constitute an infringement of copyright; permitted use by copying and acknowledgment; refers to a "privilege in others than the owner of a copyright to use the copyrighted material in a reasonable manner without his consent, notwithstanding the monopoly granted to the owner [by the copyright]." 366 F. 2d 303, 306. Whether a use is considered a fair use depends upon the purpose and character of the use, the nature of the copyrighted work, the amount and substantiality of the portion used, and the effect of the use upon the market value of the copyright.

[Flâneur]

PAD, will Rictor ever get a boyfriend? It would make waves and put X-Factor on the X-map!

[darknessatnoon]

PAD, will Rictor ever get a boyfriend? It would make waves and put X-Factor on the X-map!

Rahne wasn't androgynous enough for you?

I speculate that Rictor is going to end up in jail. If so, he'll find a boyfriend quick enough.

[Flâneur]

Rahne wasn't androgynous enough for you?
That counts as bestiality.

[Mr_Hellfire]

PAD, will Rictor ever get a boyfriend? It would make waves and put X-Factor on the X-map!
I'd totally guarantee a two year subscription for that.
Rictor needs boyfriend joys.

[John Lynch]

ALL of the examples you cited fall into the public domain because the claims are older than 70 years. That's why they're public domain. Not because you have a right to other people's work simply because you feel entitled to use it.Rights do not expire. If Marvel's privileges expire, that means they're exactly that. A privilege. Not a right.

If Marvel truly did have a right to own all of its copyrights, why would they give it up? That'd be a terrible thing to do. It would be like someone giving up their right to free speech for all eternity. But of course Marvel doesn't have a right to it, they have a privilege, that we as a society grant them for a temporary time.

[Prodigy55]

PAD, will Rictor ever get a boyfriend? It would make waves and put X-Factor on the X-map!

Rictor has been seeing Jamie's gay dupe for some time now.

Is that correct PAD?

[Michael P]

Rights do not expire. If Marvel's privileges expire, that means they're exactly that. A privilege. Not a right.

If Marvel truly did have a right to own all of its copyrights, why would they give it up? That'd be a terrible thing to do. It would be like someone giving up their right to free speech for all eternity. But of course Marvel doesn't have a right to it, they have a privilege, that we as a society grant them for a temporary time.

You're semantically quibbling. Marvel has the copyright to whatever it is you're talking about (unless what you're talking about is actually a trademark), which literally means "the right to copy." Or, to put it another way, privileges *are* rights, just ones that can be withheld or expire. (The privilege to eat in a company's cafeteria, for instance.)

[John Lynch]

You're semantically quibbling. Marvel has the copyright to whatever it is you're talking about (unless what you're talking about is actually a trademark), which literally means "the right to copy." Or, to put it another way, privileges *are* rights, just ones that can be withheld or expire. (The privilege to eat in a company's cafeteria, for instance.)Well I disagree vehemently, but as I said I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

There is no right, IMO, that expires. The right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to a speedy trial. These do not expire. Copyrights do, therefore they're not a right. The name does not mean they're suddenly a right, just as there was nothing patriotic about the PATRIOT Act.

But if copyrights are as fundamental as the right to free speech, etc but somehow miraculously expires after a certain amount of time. Just how long does the right deserve to exist? Because I can answer the question with all of the real rights (forever. No person can take away my rights), but I can't answer it when it comes to copyright.

[Michael P]

Well I disagree vehemently.

That's great, but Webster's backs me up on this. You seem to be confusing the concept of "rights" with that immortal phrase "inalienable rights." While inalienable rights do exist, not all rights are inalienable. The right to smoke in a public place, for instance.

[John Lynch]

While inalienable rights do exist, not all rights are inalienable.As I said, I disagree. I consider copyright to be a privilege I extend to people for a limited time because I hope to enjoy their work. A privilege that we as a society can, and do, revoke. The idea I have no rights to the work until time X when I miraculously gain those rights is silly to me. I have those rights all along, I simply choose to not exercise them. And I do it as a favour. Now having someone expect me to give them yet another favour, to me, seems ungrateful. I don't mind them asking, just as I hope they don't mind me saying no :wink:

It'd be like me giving someone a million dollars. And then them turning around and expecting another thousand. They can ask for it, but it doesn't mean I'll give it.

And so I guess I should apologise for getting angry at David's request. Because it was that, a request. Not a demand or an expectation. To be honest I didn't know at first why the request made me so angry. This discussion has made me examine my beliefs and opinions and I've since discovered why I was angry.

And as for the request, I will be talking about X-Factor with like-minded people in appropriate threads. So on the one hand I won't grant your request, but on the other hand I can't afford to buy X-Factor in singles and instead have to buy them in trade. So there's a good chance there won't be any active threads for me to talk about the comics when I do get them.

[Peter David]

I don't think these characters are Marvel's, nor do I think their story's are Marvel's or yours. I believe they belong to all of us and that it is only through copyright laws that we temporarily give up some of our rights to these stories.

The idea that you would ask me to give up even more of my rights (when I think current copyright laws are not only draconian but against the American constitution) makes me angry.

I know not everyone feels this way and for those that disagree I simply respect their right to their opinion and simply ask we agree to disagree.
:

In the famed interviews that David Frost did with Richard Nixon, Nixon asserted that if the President does something, that makes it legal. Then he paused and added, "I realize I'm the only person who feels that way." Your comment reminds me of that.

I honestly don't care what you think in regards to copyrights for two reasons: First, I'm pretty sure you're not a lawyer. And second, you have no frakking idea what you're talking about. There's no agreement to disagree here. You're wrong and everyone else is right. The stories are "mine" in the sense that I am the one who is telling them. But I don't pretend to own them in the legal sense. Marvel does. They're work for hire. The characters are theirs, the stories are theirs to print and reprint. They own all rights to them worldwide.

You have no "rights" to the stories. Not in the legal sense. Not in the moral sense. Not in any sense. What you're talking about has no relation to anything in the real world.

Seriously: You don't know what you're talking about.

PAD

[Peter David]

And this is why I get angry when I hear people say things like "it's not your story to tell. It's your story to enjoy. That's what your money buys you." because it reveals (in others at least) the idea that the public domain shouldn't exist.
[EDIT]: AND JUST TO MAKE IT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, I'm not saying PAD is for or against the public domain. I don't know his opinions on the issue.

Well, since I'm the one you're quoting, so that sure as hell is what you're attributing to me.

And since I had a book come out called "Tigerheart" that is a pastiche of "Peter Pan," which I was able to write and get published because the Barrie work is now in public domain, I obviously DON'T feel that way.

PAD

[Peter David]

PAD, will Rictor ever get a boyfriend? It would make waves and put X-Factor on the X-map!

Keep reading.

PAD

[worstblogever]

Make no mistake, I'll keep reading. Both this discussion, and X-Factor.

Both are entertaining the hell out of me right now.

[John Lynch]

Then he paused and added, "I realize I'm the only person who feels that way." Your comment reminds me of that.Well actually, I'm not the only that thinks that. This right here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_intellectual_property) takes two seconds to reveal that there are others who believe it as well. A couple of quotes from this link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/feb/21/intellectual.property)But once you know my song, once you read my book, once you see my movie, it leaves my control.time to start recognising that knowledge - valuable, precious, expensive knowledge - isn't owned. Can't be owned.A quote from this link (http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/publications/dcm.html)Have we not seen that many of those hurling the epithets were merely thieves in power, whose talk of ``intellectual property'' was nothing more than an attempt to retain unjustifiable privilegesA quote from this link (http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Copyright_-_Critiques/id/4726670)copyright holders use the legal system to apply extortion by charging for products that are readily available for free.

Now I don't agree with all of these quotes, I'm simply saying that my ideas are far from merely my own. I'm also no Richard Nixon. I don't download comics for free anymore (yes, I admit I use to before I started buying them). I do follow the law, no matter how wrong I might think the current laws are.

You're wrong and everyone else is right.That isn't a well thought out argument. I feel what you're basically saying is:
1) I remind you of Richard Nixon
2) I'm wrong

If its clear I'm wrong, explain why me, and many others, are wrong.

And also I'd like to point that most people in Australia simply don't give a damn about copyright. It doesn't matter if they're 6, 16, 26, 46, 66, 96, almost nobody cares. The fact I have an opinion that's in favour of compensating copyright holders for works I enjoy is itself unusual. Most people prefer to infringe on the copyright to get it for cheaper.

The stories are "mine" in the sense that I am the one who is telling them.As I said, they're no longer yours once you tell them.

You have no "rights" to the stories.1) As wrong as you think I am, even you must concede I'll have rights to the stories in 100 years time. Our difference of opinion isn't if I have rights to the stories, its when I have rights to the stories.

Not in the legal sense. Not in the moral sense. Not in any sense. What you're talking about has no relation to anything in the real world.2) The only morals that could possibly be universal are those proscribed by an omniscient being. No religion has ever claimed god has an opinion on copyright, therefore all you can say is you don't believe I have a moral right to them.

Well, since I'm the one you're quoting, so that sure as hell is what you're attributing to me.Honestly, I'm not. As I said and as you quoted me sayingit reveals (in others at least) the idea that the public domain shouldn't exist.

And finally before we got onto this tangent of copyright law. I, and others, said the only people who are spoiled or ruined are those who choose to be spoiled.

[EDIT]: I have to add, for thousands of years creators had no rights even resembling the modern day copyright. Were all these people denied their just rights, or did they not deserve them? If the latter, what makes the modern creator more worthy of these rights then Shakespeare?

[worstblogever]

Through a combination of links to wiki articles, and philosophical Existentialism, Lynch is determined to be proven right, that he owns a share of the rights to all fictional characters.


I'd love to see how his case goes in court, or how hard Marvel executives will laugh at him. :rolleyes:

[John Lynch]

Lynch is determined to be proven right, that he owns a share of the rights to all fictional characters.Actually I'm not. If PAD or the OP would like me to stop discussing this issue all they have to do is tell me so either through PM or by a post. I'm simply offering my opinion on a discussion board.

I'd love to see how his case goes in court, or how hard Marvel executives will laugh at him. :rolleyes:I don't claim I have a legal right to the characters, but then again the law has often tried to take away people's rights. Besides which, what would I go to court about? Not only would any gains I could possibly make be split with 6 billion people, I've said time and time again, I, as a member of society, have given Marvel the privilege of having an exclusive monopoly to these stories and characters until a particular point in the future.

[worstblogever]

Actually I'm not. If PAD or the OP would like me to stop discussing this issue all they have to do is tell me so either through PM or by a post. I'm simply offering my opinion on a discussion board.

I don't claim I have a legal right to the characters, but then again the law has often tried to take away people's rights. Besides which, what would I go to court about? Not only would any gains I could possibly make be split with 6 billion people, I've said time and time again, I, as a member of society, have given Marvel the privilege of having an exclusive monopoly to these stories and characters until a particular point in the future.

Well, I hope to see what you'll do with Spider-Man and the original X-Men in the year 2063. I eagerly await this.

And then people will be able to spoil your stories with them on the internet, and we'll see if you still feel they have a "right" to do so.

The more I think of this, I see your argument, or lack thereof, really is cyclical. So, I think I'll let whomever come along and argue either with you after this post. I have to go get some sleep.

But thanks for the laughs.

[John Lynch]

Well, I hope to see what you'll do with Spider-Man and the original X-Men in the year 2063. I eagerly await this.Isn't it wonderful that everyone who was alive when Spider-Man and X-Men were first created, will be long dead before they finally enter the public domain? I don't even know if I'll be alive when they enter the public domain. And that truly is sad.

And then people will be able to spoil your stories with them on the internet, and we'll see if you still feel they have a "right" to do so.You do realise that even PAD doesn't think he has a right to stop you from "spoiling" his stories, don't you?

But thanks for the laughs.I don't think I've actually been rude to anyone in this thread, and yet I've been met with condescension and rudeness in return. I hope you wake up in a more hospitable mood worstblogever.

[Lester C.]

I don’t see how the law factors into this discussion. Nothing illegal about buying an issue and spoil, or depending on your view, ruins it for everyone else. I think this discussion is about if it’s morally right to spoil/ruin a comic. I think it is moral, but I’ve always been a big fan of word of mouth praising/condemning a product grass roots style.

[John Lynch]

The more I think of this, I see your argument, or lack thereof, really is cyclical. So, I think I'll let whomever come along and argue either with you after this post. I have to go get some sleep.One more way to consider this for when you wake up:

Copyright law infringes on my right to free speech. I give up my free speech on certain subjects in return for remuneration. Sometimes this remuneration comes in the form of a steady paycheck, access to an early version of a game or new creative works by people like PAD. But do not be mistaken, I am giving up my rights.

And for as cyclical as my argument is, you haven't said whether or not Homer, Shakespeare or others should have had the "rights"* given to people under modern copyright law. Or if they didn't deserve these "rights".

* Put in quotation marks as I don't believe copyright is a right.

[Twisted Bliss]

John, I am a lawyer so I feel I can say this with authority. (Admittedly this isn't my area of speciality).

You are wrong. You are derailing, distorting and convoluting a perfectly frank, open and honest discussion about spoilers, and the creator of a particular work products belief and intent on how that work should be experienced.

(I'm typing this on an iPhone whilst commuting to work so I'll be brief.)

Copyright is an automatic right conferred on the creator of a particular work product that exhibts signs of originality, skill and uniqueness, (not strictly UK legal terms but you get the gist)

An author may legally assign the copyright ownership to someone else. If he/she does the still retain the moral rights that cannot ever be assigned i.e. He/she still remains the owner in the legal sense, and is deemed the creator even though the copyright ownership has transferred.

I think the term Moral rights is in this instance a legally defined one. Plus it will be easier for you to confirm online. Google it with 'copyright' for a better, more thorough definition.

And as an aside in the UK J M Barrie's "peter pan" has the dubious distinction of being the only copyright that does not end. In 1988 the UK courts conferred a neverending ownership of the Copyright to the trustees of Great Ormond St Childrens Hospital in London. Before you wield this as a weapon though, copyright duration is applies differently over different time periods in different international legal jurisdictions.

Bear in mind it's 6am, I'm half comatose on the train into work and the screen of this is very difficult to write a bloody essay.

By all means join in the discussion about Spoilers, their use; or their lack of use. But when told by a number of people that you are misunderstanding the crux of the arguement, that your interpretation of something may be fundementally flawed please please please listen. I don't think anyone is attempting to do anything but steer the debate back on track and maybe assist your understanding of a concept that you seem to misunderstand and incorrectly ascribe as being relevant to the current debate.

[John Lynch]

John, I am a lawyer so I feel I can say this with authority. (Admittedly this isn't my area of speciality).

You are wrong....Copyright is an automatic right conferred on the creator of a particular work product that exhibts signs of originality, skill and uniqueness, (not strictly UK legal terms but you get the gist)I don't really understand how this impacts on what I'm saying (I could easily reword it as "Copyright is an automatic privilege we grant people through specific laws" and you haven't said anything that would dispute this. If at a later time you do have something that would refute that, I'd love to hear it in a PM :smile: I also feel the UK's existence of a perpetual copyright to be wrong and immoral).

But when told by a number of people that you are misunderstanding the crux of the arguementExcept my opinions of copyright didn't have much to do with anything anyone had said about spoilers beforehand, except to explain why I felt the way I did at PAD's request. I've even apologised for my initial reaction as it was angry and I shouldn't have been angry.

that your interpretation of something may be fundementally flawed please please please listen.I can't accept my opinions on copyright are wrong simply because people are telling me they're wrong. Its why I'm not a religious man. I can't be swayed by people saying "you're wrong" I have to be swayed by people saying WHY I'm wrong.

I don't think anyone is attempting to do anything but steer the debate back on track and maybe assist your understanding of a concept that you seem to misunderstand and incorrectly ascribe as being relevant to the current debate.I'll let the matter drop despite many of my comments not being addressed, as I have gone off on a tangent.



To talk about spoilers, I don't think there's anything wrong with them and I think people should feel free and unhindered to discuss a comic, given certain basic etiquette so those who don't want to witness such conversation can avoid it. I've avoided spoilers in many, many instances for months at a time (earlier I provided a few examples), so its possible for those who want to avoid spoilers. For those who don't want to avoid them, I think they should be able to gain the spoilers.

[Pro]

Were all these people denied their just rights, or did they not deserve them? If the latter, what makes the modern creator more worthy of these rights then Shakespeare?

Do modern blacks deserve rights? If the latter what makes modern blacks more worthy of those rights than their ancestors?
Should women in the 19th century have had the right to vote? Since they didn't does that mean modern women should be denied the right to vote?
Did medieval citizens have a right to property? If not them, then why us?

Bad arguement. Rights have not always been the same and you damn well know it. Pointing to some past situation where someone or another did not have rights does not justify denying rights to someone now.

I have to add, for thousands of years creators had no rights even resembling the modern day copyright.

Books were incredibly expensive and rare exactly because there was no means of copying. Copyright only became an issue with the invention of the printing press and the coming of the industrial age when it became too easy to mass produce other people's work and earn money exploiting someone else's labor with minimum personal effort and investment. That's when the law stepped in and ensured the rights of creators. Society changes, technology changes, the law changes and thankfully in modern days often for the better in order to ensure an individual's rights.

I don't claim I have a legal right to the characters, but then again the law has often tried to take away people's rights.

And the law has often given people rights they were entitled to in the first place but never got. You're twisting things in your own favor.

Copyright law infringes on my right to free speech. I give up my free speech on certain subjects in return for remuneration. But do not be mistaken, I am giving up my rights.

It does not infringe on your right of free speech. Because what you want is to use unfree speech and not pay for it. The words aren't yours, you didn't invest time, money, effort, brainmatter, imagination or physical labor into the words to claim any part of them. You didn't come up with them, you didn't invent them, you didn't invest in them, they were never yours to begin with but you want them nonetheless. So you're not giving up anything you owed before. What you want is theft. You want someone else to do the thinking, the drawing, the filming, the investing in production of the material in question and then you want to claim it as your own.

If its clear I'm wrong, explain why me, and many others, are wrong.

We have, but it's clear you simply don't want to get it, what you want to get is someone's else's hard work without paying for it. You want someone else to buy the wood, build the house, paint the picket fence white and then you want to own the house without paying for the labor.

So i'm ending it here. No point in continuing.

Last point:
I don't think I've actually been rude to anyone in this thread

You're right and I apologized before. You only tried to make a point.
Stil you must realise that from our perspective you're promoting theft. Can't expect someone not to feel strongly about that.

[Peter David]

Well actually, I'm not the only that thinks that. This right here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_intellectual_property) takes two seconds to reveal that there are others who believe it as well.

I was referring to everyone else on this thread rather than the world, but okay.

But once you know my song, once you read my book, once you see my movie, it leaves my control.

It leaves the artist's control in terms of how people perceive it. You may want them to see it in a certain way, but once it's out there they will see it through the prism of their own experience. You can't control that aspect of it. But the physical property itself? The illegal copying and dissemination of it? The theft of it? Yeah. You can.

time to start recognising that knowledge - valuable, precious, expensive knowledge - isn't owned. Can't be owned.

Of course not. But the way in which it is expressed can be. Otherwise I could take a textbook on particle physics, copy it word for word, put my name on it, publish it under my name and say I'm just as entitled to earn money from it as the original author.

In fact, something like that actually happened that I witnessed first hand. When I was working for a publishing company, we published a science fiction novel that turned out to be a word for word plagiarism of a novel by Gardner Fox published twenty years earlier The publisher went after the plagiarist and all monies were paid instead to Gardner Fox. By your reasoning, the plagiarist was not a thief at all.

Have we not seen that many of those hurling the epithets were merely thieves in power, whose talk of ``intellectual property'' was nothing more than an attempt to retain unjustifiable privileges

And hate is love and war is peace. It is doublespeak to assert that those who paid for the material to be produced and thus own it are thieves whereas those who want to acquire the material for free and do whatever they want with it are on the side of the angels.

copyright holders use the legal system to apply extortion by charging for products that are readily available for free.

My first instinct is to say, Oh yeah? Prove it. But that will prolong this stupidity. So I will simply acknowledge that where any system exists, people will find a means of abusing it. But I'll side with the laws that are designed to protect people FROM the abusers, thanks.

Now I don't agree with all of these quotes, I'm simply saying that my ideas are far from merely my own.

A group delusion doesn't lend it credibility.I

If its clear I'm wrong, explain why me, and many others, are wrong.

I just did. I very much doubt it will help.

And also I'd like to point that most people in Australia simply don't give a damn about copyright.

The flip answer is: It's a country founded as a penal colony for thieves and murderers so, y'know, big shock. The real answer is, a lot of people in Australia sure gave a damn when Paul Hogan was accused of stealing the life story of the real life "Crocodile Dundee" and became a wealthy man as a result of it while doing nothing to remunerate the real guy. You know when people care about copyright? When it affects them. Should you ever write a book and have it stolen wholesale, you might well feel differently.

As I said, they're no longer yours once you tell them.

The problem is that you have so aggressively muddied the waters of a simple remark that it's almost impossible to discuss it with you. You're all over the place. My statement clearly had to do with the notion that a story and the audience for the story is best served when it's experienced in the way the creator wanted it to be presented rather than having someone named Rosebud23 give a three sentence description that says, "This happens, this happens, and then oh my God, this happened on page 22." And you've shangheid that simple sentiment into a massive boondoggle on copyright law.

1) As wrong as you think I am, even you must concede I'll have rights to the stories in 100 years time. Our difference of opinion isn't if I have rights to the stories, its when I have rights to the stories.

Wrong again. You have the right to use the characters in original stories. You have the right to reprint the stories without having to pay someone for them. You have the right to reinterpret the story in your own manner. But you do not have the rights to the stories. If that were the case, you could publish the following library:

"A Study in Scarlet" by John Holmes. "Treasure Island" by John Holmes. "Don Quixote" by John Holmes. "Romeo and Juliet" by John Holmes. "A Christmas Carol" by John Holmes.

You can, however, do "Treasure Planet" or "West Side Story" or "Scrooged" and sign your name to those.

2) The only morals that could possibly be universal are those proscribed by an omniscient being. No religion has ever claimed god has an opinion on copyright, therefore all you can say is you don't believe I have a moral right to them.

God certainly does express an opinion on copyright. Twice. "Thou Shalt not steal." "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's property." Seems pretty clear cut to me.

And finally before we got onto this tangent of copyright law. I, and others, said the only people who are spoiled or ruined are those who choose to be spoiled.

First, whattaya mean "we," paleface. You're the one who drove the bus off onto the side road. We're just responding to the tangent that you whipped up (and I very much suspect that this is the last I'll be saying to you on the subject unless you have something to offer that isn't ridiculous.) As for choice: It's like smoking cigarettes. Those who are ruined by the people who smoke them and the people who happen to be near enough to inhale their secondary smoke.

You can't stop people from smoking. But you can at least paste warnings all over the place saying, "These will screw you up real bad."

[EDIT]: I have to add, for thousands of years creators had no rights even resembling the modern day copyright. Were all these people denied their just rights, or did they not deserve them? If the latter, what makes the modern creator more worthy of these rights then Shakespeare?

Shakespeare's plays were routinely ripped off and even altered without his permission. You don't think that Shakespeare would have loved it if copyright laws existed to protect his words and see him earn monies for performances? Because I'm betting he would have been all for that. And by the way, not for nothin': Baz Luhrrman, an Australian, didn't produce "Baz Luhrrman's Romeo and Juliet." It was called "William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet."

What it comes down to is this: Your position is that you should have full rights to do whatever you want with whatever you see because, well, you believe that's your right. You know who shares that philosophy? Car thieves. Is that who you really want for a philosophical ally?

PAD

[Michael P]

In the famed interviews that David Frost did with Richard Nixon, Nixon asserted that if the President does something, that makes it legal. Then he paused and added, "I realize I'm the only person who feels that way." Your comment reminds me of that.

I honestly don't care what you think in regards to copyrights for two reasons: First, I'm pretty sure you're not a lawyer. And second, you have no frakking idea what you're talking about. There's no agreement to disagree here. You're wrong and everyone else is right. The stories are "mine" in the sense that I am the one who is telling them. But I don't pretend to own them in the legal sense. Marvel does. They're work for hire. The characters are theirs, the stories are theirs to print and reprint. They own all rights to them worldwide.

You have no "rights" to the stories. Not in the legal sense. Not in the moral sense. Not in any sense. What you're talking about has no relation to anything in the real world.

Seriously: You don't know what you're talking about.

PAD
I'm reminded of a quote from Warren Ellis that made it into somebody's sig: "You are so wrong that you are in fact wrong on a genetic level. You are wrong in your DNA."

I tell you, I can get as proprietary about my funnies as the next guy, but I've never bought into the "the fans own the characters" bit. Too much entitlement for my taste.

[ExodusCloak]

Ick....the freedom of speech argument is a crappy one, it would only work if people could be trusted to have enough moral jugdement, common sense and human decency and most of that is inherent to the individual. Some things just shouldn't be said but get said in the name of freedom of speech my right to do as I please and say whatever I want even though it hurts other people and infringes their rights= bleh.

[worstblogever]

Well, I just woke up. I got back online, and Lynch's arguments are still laughable. I'd like to thank PAD, Pro, Twisted Bliss, and ExodusCloak for quite eloquently rebutting whatever passed for an argument already, and thank John Lynch for keeping me chuckling and shaking my head.

-WBE

[jmc247]

PAD I Iike what you did with Pietro in Quick and the Dead. Though, I am wondering if you are done with the character on X-Factor or not.

[jmc247]

The end-splash page cliffhanger is one of the money moments in comics, after all. Sales hinge on that next issue.


Word of mouth can help... but as you might have noticed Magneto Testament has had rave reviews from sites like IGN and many others and the online buzz has been almost completely positive... and yet sales have been pretty low. But, with big events like Ultimatum sales are strong even though the online buzz has been negative. People are really into buying the 'big event' comics these days where they are promised 'everything will change'.

[worstblogever]

Word of mouth can help... but as you might have noticed Magneto Testament has had rave reviews from sites like IGN and many others and the online buzz has been almost completely positive... and yet sales have been pretty low. But, with big events like Ultimatum sales are strong even though the online buzz has been negative. People are really into buying the 'big event' comics these days where they are promised 'everything will change'.

Yeah, I see the same on Storm: Worlds Apart. Great book, art and writing wise. People are digging it, saying Storm's finally back.

And yet, it's barely in the Top 100, whereas Jeph Loeb's Hulk stays in the Top 5 or 10, and other than McGuiness' art, people are tearing it apart. It's not far from the sales that World War Hulk did. No matter what the previews show online. And I don't know that the Hulk ever really has been that highly sold of a book... so how's it happening? I can't even find people at my LCS buying it to ask them what draws them to it.

Unless the mystery of "Who is Red Hulk" really has people that captivated, I'm baffled as to how this happened, because it's nowhere near as interesting as other writers, who I'll let remain anonymous have made it.

[jmc247]

Yeah, I see the same on Storm: Worlds Apart. Great book, art and writing wise. People are digging it, saying Storm's finally back.

And yet, it's barely in the Top 100, whereas Jeph Loeb's Hulk stays in the Top 5 or 10, and other than McGuiness' art, people are tearing it apart. It's not far from the sales that World War Hulk did. No matter what the previews show online. And I don't know that the Hulk ever really has been that highly sold of a book... so how's it happening? I can't even find people at my LCS buying it to ask them what draws them to it.

Unless the mystery of "Who is Red Hulk" really has people that captivated, I'm baffled as to how this happened, because it's nowhere near as interesting as other writers, who I'll let remain anonymous have made it.

I check the big review sites and comics like CW HoM and Magneto Testment are consistently given some of the highest marks of minis for 2008 by the major reviewers as well as many fans and most people seem very happy with Storm World's Apart and yet the sales numbers show fans aren't picking up these minis.

I can't really understand it other then the notion that people are buying ongoings and 'big event' comics no matter how poorly recieved online and with the big reviewers those comics are.

[John Lynch]

Y'know I was going to try drop this, however I can't just let PAD respond to my entire posts and not respond myself. So here's a short version of it:

But you do not have the rights to the stories. If that were the case, you could publish the following library:

"A Study in Scarlet" by John Holmes. "Treasure Island" by John Holmes. "Don Quixote" by John Holmes. "Romeo and Juliet" by John Holmes. "A Christmas Carol" by John Holmes.I need a citation of a law that stops me from doing this. Because I'm pretty sure I can. This is the first time I've ever seen someone say otherwise. At best it could be fraud. However if I rewrite/edit it sufficiently, I don't see why it would be.

Also I'll add you have equated copyright infringement with theft and for that I can't respect your opinion. You're rhetoric is that of the RIAA which is dismissed by many, many people. I am also one of those people.

[EDIT]: Also the only reason copyright exists is to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. Its a bribe guys, that's all it is.

[Peter David]

Y'know I was going to try drop this, however I can't just let PAD respond to my entire posts and not respond myself. So here's a short version of it:

I need a citation of a law that stops me from doing this. Because I'm pretty sure I can. This is the first time I've ever seen someone say otherwise. At best it could be fraud. However if I rewrite/edit it sufficiently, I don't see why it would be.

Also I'll add you have equated copyright infringement with theft and for that I can't respect your opinion. You're rhetoric is that of the RIAA which is dismissed by many, many people. I am also one of those people.

[EDIT]: Also the only reason copyright exists is to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. Its a bribe guys, that's all it is.

Good Christ.

You're officially no longer worth talking to about this.

PAD

[Home made ectoplasm]

lol

(loving X Factor)

[marvell2100]

Personally I avoid spoilers at all cost because I still want to be surprised when I read comics. I even try to avoid some of the preview posts at times. I want that, "whoa, I didn't see that coming" moment. When there are spoiler posts on titles I like, I usually wait until I've read the comic to make a post. To those that like the spoilers, I guess that's cool for them but I just don't see how it doesn't take a little bit away from the story when they buy the book.

[Mitteloss]

Good Christ.

You're officially no longer worth talking to about this.

PAD

Hi, Peter David.

OMG!!

Thank you so much for revitalising Polaris back in your 90's run on X-Factor, you wrote her so refreshingly well and you did so much good for her character. What you did was great and unique and essential to the character she is today, as well as to her fanbase. I can't really simply say much else, but thank you!

I hope we'll see Pietro again soon. I also love the characterization of Siryn and M in your current run of X-Factor.

[John Lynch]

Good Christ.

You're officially no longer worth talking to about this.

PADWell if anyone else wants to back up PAD's assertion that public domain works must have the original author's name on them with an actual law, I will be extremely interested to see it.

[dotdotdot]

it's insane how hard a fanboy will work to argue for his right to spoilers. but this is on a board where people get off on reading entire fully detailed page by page issue summaries before they get to the lcs, and then scoff at anyone downloading a file instead.
ludicrous.
plus, the most nostalgic guys in the world are just blinded by their selfishness and impatience and forget those glorious pre-internet younger days of being shocked by seeing the cover for the first time as you buy the issue. and only finding out what happens this month after that point.

[dotdotdot]

Well if anyone else wants to back up PAD's assertion that public domain works must have the original author's name on them with an actual law, I will be extremely interested to see it.

i didn't quite catch him saying that anywhere. it's a matter of respect, but there are other ways of being perfectly clear that the creator is paying homage to the original writer/artist than tagging their name. any experienced reader can quickly tell the difference between homage and rip-off. that nefarious intent bleeds onto the page every time (and is thus extremely rare, because it's hard to get away with. 99.9% of the time some jerkoff fan uses the term "rip-off", they're just blind to the obvious tribute being paid to the original creators.
tangent i know.

[Pro]

Well if anyone else wants to back up PAD's assertion that public domain works must have the original author's name on them with an actual law, I will be extremely interested to see it.

BLAM!

*Pro's brains splatter against the wall*

[John Lynch]

i didn't quite catch him saying that anywhere.In that case can you explain what this means:
But you do not have the rights to the stories. If that were the case, you could publish the following library:

"A Study in Scarlet" by John Holmes. "Treasure Island" by John Holmes. "Don Quixote" by John Holmes. "Romeo and Juliet" by John Holmes. "A Christmas Carol" by John Holmes. Because from what I'm reading he's saying I can't do it. I'm pretty I can.

[Twisted Bliss]

Well if anyone else wants to back up PAD's assertion that public domain works must have the original author's name on them with an actual law, I will be extremely interested to see it.

Until then though, I'm simply taking it be as baseless as the assertion that copyright infringement = theft.

John, rather than continue this cyclical argument over the nature of the law of copyright and in doing so further exasperate people the world over.

Take a look at these websites (Not just the specific pages I have linked to)

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p05_copyright_infringement

The first website whilst UK law (I understand you are US domiciled) is in very clear, plain and stylistically simplistic English. You should find it of some help to you.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

This website deals with the specifics of US copyright legislation. Its not as clear as its more technical legal definitions, and statute based therefore you may find it largely unintelligible, however it is of use for you if you want exact applicability for US.

I have asked you politely once before but I'll repeat. Please don't keep flogging a dead horse. This is precisely what you are doing with this ceaseless onslaught of 'Copyright', 'Public domain', 'power to the people', 'burn our bras' style rhetoric. None of which is relevant to why this thread was created. Nor is it the point of the interview PAD gave. It is not central to any aspect of the discussion about spoilers and in all honesty makes visiting this thread as desirable, as intellectually stimulating, as attractive as being stuck in a small 2 man lift/elevator with a flatulent, attention starved Big Brother contestant. Its horrifying, painful and ultimately very very disturbing to mind, body and soul of all concerned. In fact it actually makes licking light switches seem an admirable and desirable past time.

If you still cannot understand the concept, the application, the basic fundamental reasoning for copyright law then rather than post online please feel free to PM me. I'll try to assist you, and point you in the right direction allowing the original discussion concerning the issue of the use of or lack of spoilers, and how best to experience a work to resume. Continually derailing a considered, debate is not conducive to a fair, frank, and honest discussion. You wouldn't start discussing recipes and the most appropriate amount of basil to add to your pasta in a meeting with your Bank Manager when you should be begging for him not to foreclose on your mortgage. Nor would you (I hope) discuss any physical ailments you possess, with graphic illustrations, a slideshow and some close up video footage with the store clerk at your local Walmart. Simple point is. They aren't interested. It’s not appropriate. They are not in a position to assist you on these topics.

John, the same rules apply here. Right now. On this very thread. With PAD. With Pro. With Tom. With Dick. With Fanny. Or anyone else for that matter. This thread is for issues raised by PAD's interview. Namely Spoilers and their appropriate or inappropriate usage.

I am truly sorry if I am sounding rather annoyed. I promise I will help you to the best of my legal knowledge and resources. I cannot do any more than that. Please PM me with any response I know you will have. I promise you I will respond.

[Lester C.]

PAD I Iike what you did with Pietro in Quick and the Dead. Though, I am wondering if you are done with the character on X-Factor or not.

If Peter doesn't answer your question don't take it personally. To do so would be a spoiler and contradictory to what this thread is about.

[John Lynch]

Nevermind.

[John Lynch]

I just wanted to say Twisted Bliss was kind enough to PM me with some information, and it turns out PAD was right about plagiarism being illegal (thanks to the Berne convention). Although I'm not sure if moral rights are covered in America (the few instances they're covered are extremely weak and limited), the rest of the world has them (including Australia where I live) and so I accede to the world's opinion that creators deserve moral rights.

As such, I feel all of my opinions on copyright are turned on their head by this revelation and so I admit PAD and everyone was right, I was wrong. If my voicing my opinion upset or offended anyone, I also apologise.

However I do thank everyone for their input. You have helped form my future opinions on copyright, which I'll have to ponder for a while.

[Peter David]

PAD I Iike what you did with Pietro in Quick and the Dead. Though, I am wondering if you are done with the character on X-Factor or not.

Although he's been in the book quite a bit, he's not X-Factor's character. If he does become available, though, I'd certainly be happy to bring him in in some manner.

PAD

[jmc247]

Although he's been in the book quite a bit, he's not X-Factor's character. If he does become available, though, I'd certainly be happy to bring him in in some manner.

PAD

Thanks, that is good to hear.

[jmc247]

To do so would be a spoiler and contradictory to what this thread is about.

There is spoiling what is going to happen and then there is telling if one even has access to a character at the moment. As PAD said he doesn't so clearly some other part of other franchise does... perhaps the Avengers which have been holding onto Wanda. The point is there is a vast difference between knowing if a writer wants or even can use a certain character and knowing when he will use a character and how he will use that character (which would be spoilers).

[Peter David]

A spoiler would be, "Quicksilver shows up on the last page of issue # (whatever) and saves Jamie's life."

Saying--for instance--"We have plans for Quicksilver and we're sure he'll be back" is definitely not a spoiler because it's sufficiently vague.

Now let's say I said that about--for instance--Banshee. "We have plans for Banshee and we're sure he'll be back." THAT might constitute a spoiler since it ruins a surprise, what with Banshee being dead. And for the record, no, we're not planning that (at least not to my knowledge); it was just a for instance.

PAD

[Twisted Bliss]

Now let's say I said that about--for instance--Banshee. "We have plans for Banshee and we're sure he'll be back." THAT might constitute a spoiler since it ruins a surprise, what with Banshee being dead. And for the record, no, we're not planning that (at least not to my knowledge); it was just a for instance.

PAD

You Tease !!!!

[david r]

These are spoilers I'd like to see by Peter David:

Nightcrawler joins X-Factor!! X-fans rejoice!

X-Factor versus X-Factor!! The Original 5 smack down with the current X-Factor! The fight you NEVER thought you'd see, brought to you by PAD.

X-Factor meet the Pantheon! In preparation for Peter David's new Pantheon mini (and possible ongoing) series!! :smile:

[timbox]

Can we get the legal definition of "spoilers," Twisted Bliss?

Pro can give the semi-legal definition, and John Lynch can just make up his own if they wish.

[gorthon616]

if PAD is still answering questions...

Will Rahne ever come back to the book? I enjoy X-Force (and Rahne's place in it), but it doesn't really seem like the place for her long term. Is her stint on X-Force defined by a specific arc (or set of arcs) that will eventually finish and then she'll return? Or is she at the moment an X-Force character until told otherwise?

[marvell2100]

Hey PAD, is X-Factor going to be involved in any X-event storylines or do you want to keep them seperate? With this whole thing going on with the Messiah baby, Siryn giving birth, the upcoming civil war and whatever else is on the horizon, is it easier for you to keep X-Factor out of that type thing or are you barely holding them at bay?

[ExodusCloak]

Syrin needs to become a Dublin 4 she still wouldn't be able to discuss her father with Emma Frost over tea as Emma wouldn't associate herself with such riff raff but the fake tan and D4 accent would be mildly entertaining.

[Michael P]

These are spoilers I'd like to see by Peter David:

Nightcrawler joins X-Factor!! X-fans rejoice!


Ever since the solicits said Nightcrawler's leaving the X-Men, I've been hoping this will happen. Aside from the character being too good to let lie fallow, Peter did originally want to put him on the team.

I would also accept him joining MI13, or the Agents of Atlas, or any other book I happen to read. (Yes, including Fallen Angel. It will never happen, but God, it would be awesome.)

[FieryCajunforPolaris]

Hi Peter ! I am soo glad to know u post here! :smile: I wanted to let u know that I am a big Fan of Polaris, and that I really appreciated u writing her during the early 90's. I dont know if u knew this, but u characterization of her during this time has been very much talked about by every Polaris fan. Everyone remembers u for u days of early X-factor, and for u great writings of Polaris, Quicksilver, Mutiple Man. I am glad u chose to write Siryn, I am a fan of her, her and Lorna are alike because they both like green and they both are Daddy's Girls! :smile: As for Polaris, is there any chance for u to write her again? I would love to see her back in u hands once they come back from space. In the meantime, is they anyway we can get some appearances of Lorna in u X-factor book right now? It would be kool if we could see Jamie flashback as his early days on X-factor and we get to see the original cast. I would love to see Lorna interacting with Mutiple Man again, I like the friendship they had. Could we see her in that red/gold hormone inducer costume? Thanks soo much for given her that costume after her therapy sessions with Doc Sampson, it is my fav costume she has that doesnt have a cape or headgear. I dont feel she wore it long enough, after u left, they changed her costume. It would be kool if Lorna could appear in one of u books for a few panels in flashbacks, wearing that awesome costume u designed her! Thanks, I am looking forward to hearing from you! :cool:

[Wind-Breaker]

"There is no charge for awesomeness."
--Kung Fu Panda


PAD

Indeed there isn't :biggrin:

For those who were interested here's the rest of videos of PAD's latest interview that I posted earlier: Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU8_j-7ipzs), Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dNOzRJM3RU), Part 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGLN-yW9TnE),
Part 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0y1eZFQAfc).

In one of video's when the hosts were reviewing Ultimate Hulk Annual, PAD commented that the comic was fun and based on the tone of the book wasn't to be taken seriously (in a complimentary way).

On the subject of fun lighthearted comics, I had a question I wanted to ask Mr. David. As an aspiring comic book creator with no formal training in writing (my grammar and shaky proof reading skills a big indicator of that :redface: ) both in my comic strips and in my own original work my stories often have a humor based and light hearted tone to them. The goal I shoot for in my stories is that when a reader is done reading them that they say to themselves "That was fun!”. None of the stories are really thought provoking, philosophical, and in no way resembling any form of social commentary. Creating lighthearted style of stories comes more naturally to me.

So my question is: As I develop myself as writer, do you think it would be a detriment for me to continue along a path of light hearted comedic stories with not tremendous amount of depth? Especially if I'm trying to meet the skill level standards of what expected of creators in your industry?

[Peter David]

if PAD is still answering questions...

Will Rahne ever come back to the book? I enjoy X-Force (and Rahne's place in it), but it doesn't really seem like the place for her long term. Is her stint on X-Force defined by a specific arc (or set of arcs) that will eventually finish and then she'll return? Or is she at the moment an X-Force character until told otherwise?

The latter.

PAD

[Peter David]

Indeed there isn't :biggrin:

For those who were interested here's the rest of videos of PAD's latest interview that I posted earlier: Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU8_j-7ipzs), Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dNOzRJM3RU), Part 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGLN-yW9TnE),
Part 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0y1eZFQAfc).

In one of video's when the hosts were reviewing Ultimate Hulk Annual, PAD commented that the comic was fun and based on the tone of the book wasn't to be taken seriously (in a complimentary way).

On the subject of fun lighthearted comics, I had a question I wanted to ask Mr. David. As an aspiring comic book creator with no formal training in writing (my grammar and shaky proof reading skills a big indicator of that :redface: ) both in my comic strips and in my own original work my stories often have a humor based and light hearted tone to them. The goal I shoot for in my stories is that when a reader is done reading them that they say to themselves "That was fun!”. None of the stories are really thought provoking, philosophical, and in no way resembling any form of social commentary. Creating lighthearted style of stories comes more naturally to me.

So my question is: As I develop myself as writer, do you think it would be a detriment for me to continue along a path of light hearted comedic stories with not tremendous amount of depth? Especially if I'm trying to meet the skill level standards of what expected of creators in your industry?

I don't think lighthearted and depth are mutually exclusive. If something is so humorous that it never has anything to say, it becomes so light that it floats off the page and never succeeds in the long run.

PAD

[XaviersMisprint]

In that case can you explain what this means:Because from what I'm reading he's saying I can't do it. I'm pretty I can.

You're pretty? You can? Why, of all the arrogant... JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE PRETTY DOESN'T MEAN YOU OWN THE WORLD.

Kidding, I don't mean to entertain you with that. I doubt you are very pretty at all, because the best lookers are the people with a mind behind nice eyes.

[XaviersMisprint]

double post! yah dude!