Andy Diggle talks about his new Thunderbolts cast.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Newsarama have an interview up with Thunderbolts writer Andy Diggle, about his new cast for the book:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/120817-Diggle-ThunderboltsB.html

So basically, the whole cast has changed. Osborn is still there, but overseeing it all, as these new Thunderbolts don't officially exist.

I guess that fuels confidence on some people's Dark Avengers theories...

I'm still really interested to see what Diggle does with the book. Granted I only really know a couple of members of this new cast, but I have confidence in him as a writer to deliver something good.

[Grapeweasel]

I'm less interested after reading that.

There's absolutely no one in that group to root for.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I'm less interested after reading that.

There's absolutely no one in that group to root for.

Not even Ant Man? :biggrin:

[gorthon616]

Ahhh... so Bush is responsible for putting Norman in power not Obama.

[CyberHubbs]

When O'Grady is the possible hero of the story, then you know the rest of the cast is some real bastards.

[Soundrave]

Sounds like Paladin and Ant-Man will slowly develop into the protagonists . . .

[celticguy]

Sounds like Paladin and Ant-Man will slowly develop into the protagonists . . .


Maybe Ghost as well depending on how he resolves the "losiing touch" aspects.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

You see from the sound of it this new lineup could be really quite interesting. I just hope that (on the grounds that these are some fairly obscure and less than A-List characters) the book can maintain a strong readership while Diggle fleshes them out.

[Beast]

Not even Ant Man? :biggrin:
I'm glad he'll be in a book for his fans. And out of Avengers: The Initiative for me.

It's a win win situation for all involved! :biggrin:

[rogerio]

I cannot believe that Brubaker’s Captain America is not my favorite book anymore!

NRAMA: OK, then which new team member has been the most fun to write?
Andy Diggle: Of the new guys, it has to be Eric O'Grady, a.k.a. Ant-Man. Robert Kirkman and Phil Hester created such a great character there; even when he's being such an unbelievably self-serving little sleazebag, somehow you still can't help but root for the guy. Plus he's funny as hell. Fans of The Losers will know what I mean when I say he's the Jensen of the team.

NRAMA: How is it writing Norman Osborn? How do you approach a character like that?

Andy Diggle: They key to Norman Osborn is that he thinks he's the hero. So once you view him through that lens, everything clicks into place. In that respect he's kind of similar to Max from The Losers, who also thought he was the good guy. Norman thinks everything would be fine if they'd just let him run the world. The only problem with that, of course, is that the fact that he's a dangerously bipolar psychotic.

and I really need to re-read my Losers books... :smile:

[Mr. Cakes]

You see from the sound of it this new lineup could be really quite interesting. I just hope that (on the grounds that these are some fairly obscure and less than A-List characters) the book can maintain a strong readership while Diggle fleshes them out.

They should've used a mixture of A-Listers and lesser known characters... that way, they can sell the book with iconic characters while also fleshing out characters who had never been previously.

I do find it slightly irritating that the only female character on the team is described in only three traits, and one has to be "seductive." Why does the token female always have to be seductive? It's like when talk show hosts introduce female guests and they're all, "the beautiful ____." Can men not be seductive? Why should the one female be seductive and not one of the six men?

I SENSE SEXISM AFOOT.

[CyberHubbs]

They should've used a mixture of A-Listers and lesser known characters... that way, they can sell the book with iconic characters while also fleshing out characters who had never been previously.

I do find it slightly irritating that the only female character on the team is described in only three traits, and one has to be "seductive." Why does the token female always have to be seductive? It's like when talk show hosts introduce female guests and they're all, "the beautiful ____." Can men not be seductive? Why should the one female be seductive and not one of the six men?

I SENSE SEXISM AFOOT.

Because they're selling to nerds.

[XPac]

I don't know... Ant-Man is the only selling point in that line up so far.

Diggle is going to have to work some real magic in that first issue.

[StoneGold]

Because it's the Black Widow who, while granted, it's a different one, was originally created to seduce Hawkeye.


And I know whom to root for - Andy Diggle. DC so underused him, it was criminal.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Ahhh... so Bush is responsible for putting Norman in power not Obama.

Yup. And apparently they have to resort to mind control with Barack to keep Norman in power.

Bendis seems to want to set up something like Civil War 2.0, but that's gonna fail so amazingly as Bendis tries to apply outdated policies to the current adminstration.

[classicgmer]

I'm glad he'll be in a book for his fans. And out of Avengers: The Initiative for me.

It's a win win situation for all involved! :biggrin:




What was wrong with him being in ATI?

[artiepants]

man, this books sounds good.

[bebopeva88]

They should've used a mixture of A-Listers and lesser known characters... that way, they can sell the book with iconic characters while also fleshing out characters who had never been previously.

I do find it slightly irritating that the only female character on the team is described in only three traits, and one has to be "seductive." Why does the token female always have to be seductive? It's like when talk show hosts introduce female guests and they're all, "the beautiful ____." Can men not be seductive? Why should the one female be seductive and not one of the six men?

I SENSE SEXISM AFOOT.

A) Yelena uses her sex appeal to her advantage. Seductive fits, if you know anything about her.
B) There isn't really anyone else on the team that could be described as "beautiful", or "seductive". When a term fits, use it. No sexism has to be inherently involved.
C) I find it interesting that you ignore the other two traits attributed to her, namely that she's "very capable" and "very deadly".

[mikekerr3]

Looks like i was right to drop this, not a single charater who has more intrisict worth than dog droppings, The Thunderbolts is just a villians book now, now longer an anti-hero book.

Norman Osborn as a capable leader of men? Diggle has noclue what that term actually actualy means:eek:

[Magneto Rocks]

Looks like i was right to drop this, not a single charater who has more intrisict worth than dog droppings, The Thunderbolts is just a villians book now, now longer an anti-hero book.:

Because Norman Osborn, Swordsman, Moonstone, Venom and indeed the homicidal psychopathic superhumans in the T-Bolts Prisons were all substantially less mind-bogglingly evil than the horror that is Paladin or Eric O'Grady.

[StoneGold]

Looks like i was right to drop this, not a single charater who has more intrisict worth than dog droppings, The Thunderbolts is just a villians book now, now longer an anti-hero book.

Norman Osborn as a capable leader of men? Diggle has noclue what that term actually actualy means:eek:

I'm thinking you don't. All it means is he has leadership skills. Hitler and Stalin were both very capable leaders of men. Being a ruthless monster doesn't preclude you from being able to order men to their deaths for your own goals. In fact, it probably makes it easier.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Because Norman Osborn, Swordsman, Moonstone, Venom and indeed the homicidal psychopathic superhumans in the T-Bolts Prisons were all substantially less mind-bogglingly evil than the horror that is Paladin or Eric O'Grady.

Paladin cares only about money while Eric's main character trait is how shallow and irresponsible he is.

Just because they don't rape babies means that they have alot of depth.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm thinking you don't. All it means is he has leadership skills. Hitler and Stalin were both very capable leaders of men. Being a ruthless monster doesn't preclude you from being able to order men to their deaths for your own goals. In fact, it probably makes it easier.

Hitler and Stalin led nations.

90% of Norman's career has been focused on Spider-Man and has been a complete failure. Hitler remade a beaten, broken Germany into a world power. Norman struggles to break a free lance reporter.

Hell, Ellis' first two arcs on Thunderbolts vividly showed how Norman was unable to maintain control over the Thunderbolts. Gage is the only one to ever depict Norman as the least bit worthy of leadership which strangely comes only an arc during Secret Invasion.

Norman is now one of Bendis' pet characters. So until Marvel wises up or Bendis loses interest, Norman will likely do alot of nasty things and get away with them because he's suddenly so cunning.

But Norman is still the guy who went nuts on national television with no provocation. Still the guy who took over a secret society and engaged in a dangerous mystic ceremony, all in an effort to beat Spider-Man. Norman's given up damn near everything just to screw over Parker and failed. Genius he ain't.

[StoneGold]

Hitler and Stalin led nations.

90% of Norman's career has been focused on Spider-Man and has been a complete failure. Hitler remade a beaten, broken Germany into a world power. Norman struggles to break a free lance reporter.

Hell, Ellis' first two arcs on Thunderbolts vividly showed how Norman was unable to maintain control over the Thunderbolts. Gage is the only one to ever depict Norman as the least bit worthy of leadership which strangely comes only an arc during Secret Invasion.

Norman is now one of Bendis' pet characters. So until Marvel wises up or Bendis loses interest, Norman will likely do alot of nasty things and get away with them because he's suddenly so cunning.

But Norman is still the guy who went nuts on national television with no provocation. Still the guy who took over a secret society and engaged in a dangerous mystic ceremony, all in an effort to beat Spider-Man. Norman's given up damn near everything just to screw over Parker and failed. Genius he ain't.

Yeah, but he's also been a successful businessman. And at one point, criminal overlord, at least for a bit. And jeebus, the time and effort he's been retconned into having taken just to make Pete go crazy... the manpower in that alone! The Scriers, the fake parents, all the clone wackiness... it was like the Truman Show!

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah, but he's also been a successful businessman. And at one point, criminal overlord, at least for a bit. And jeebus, the time and effort he's been retconned into having taken just to make Pete go crazy... the manpower in that alone! The Scriers, the fake parents, all the clone wackiness... it was like the Truman Show!

So what if he's a successful business man? So's Bill Gates.

The clones, the Scriers, kidnapping Aunt May (fake parents were someone else), all that Norman pissed away for just one more shot at Spider-Man. And he failed.

Not to knock Spider-Man, but bear in mind that Norman failed to accomplish any victory over him at a time when heroes kept to themselves. Spider-Man had virtually no support against Norman, who had millions, dozens of underlings and every advantage possible.

Norman is Wiley Coyate to Spider-Man's Road-runner. And he's gone over that cliff a million times. To say his current status is a reach is like saying a tsunami is wet.

[Pixie_Solanas]

I'm less interested after reading that.

There's absolutely no one in that group to root for.

Thank **** for that. I'm tired of the tired "hero" cliche.

[CyberHubbs]

Most villains fail in comic books. In a real-life setting, that would probably not be the case. But Norman failing to beat Spidey is because the book is called Amazing Spider-Man, and not The Gruesome Green Goblin.

Doom has lost countless times. Yet he's still a feared villain.

[StoneGold]

So what if he's a successful business man? So's Bill Gates.

The clones, the Scriers, kidnapping Aunt May (fake parents were someone else), all that Norman pissed away for just one more shot at Spider-Man. And he failed.

Not to knock Spider-Man, but bear in mind that Norman failed to accomplish any victory over him at a time when heroes kept to themselves. Spider-Man had virtually no support against Norman, who had millions, dozens of underlings and every advantage possible.

Norman is Wiley Coyate to Spider-Man's Road-runner. And he's gone over that cliff a million times. To say his current status is a reach is like saying a tsunami is wet.

But then you do that, and Dr. Doom is a moron who can't pull one past the mildest of heroes.

[Joe Franklin]

Thank **** for that. I'm tired of the tired "hero" cliche.

I agree. Wimpo characters like Songbird and Radioactive Man have no business in the T-Bolts with a bunch a-holes and assassins. I'm so glad Diggle is replacing them with cool characters.:cool:

[StoneGold]

I agree. Wimpo characters like Songbird and Radioactive Man have no business in the T-Bolts with a bunch a-holes and assassins. I'm so glad Diggle is replacing them with cool characters.:cool:

Yes, because a bunch of D-list villains and amoral characters are cool?


You might have had that argument with Ellis' book. Venom, Bullseye, yeah, they cool. Ghost, Paladin, not so much. Ant-Man was so uncool, Marvel couldn't cancel the book fast enough.

[Joe Franklin]

Yes, because a bunch of D-list villains and amoral characters are cool?


You might have had that argument with Ellis' book. Venom, Bullseye, yeah, they cool. Ghost, Paladin, not so much. Ant-Man was so uncool, Marvel couldn't cancel the book fast enough.

Bwahahahahahaha..............................:bigg rin:

What do you think Songbird and Radioactive Man are? Former D-Listers, turned C-Listers.

[jdwrocks]

I agree. Wimpo characters like Songbird and Radioactive Man have no business in the T-Bolts with a bunch a-holes and assassins. I'm so glad Diggle is replacing them with cool characters.:cool:
HEY! Don't ever dis the Rad-Man!:evilangry:

[Joe Franklin]

HEY! Don't ever dis the Rad-Man!:evilangry:

That costume is the worse costume ever. It's a cheap Wal-Mart tyvec suit.:biggrin:

[jdwrocks]

That costume is the worse costume ever. It's a cheap Wal-Mart tyvec suit.:biggrin:
No. That's what makes it the greatest costume in the Marvel Universe.

Functional = Fashion Cool.:cool:

[Monty_Cristo]

I cannot believe that Brubaker’s Captain America is not my favorite book anymore!

NRAMA: OK, then which new team member has been the most fun to write?
Andy Diggle: Of the new guys, it has to be Eric O'Grady, a.k.a. Ant-Man. Robert Kirkman and Phil Hester created such a great character there; even when he's being such an unbelievably self-serving little sleazebag, somehow you still can't help but root for the guy. Plus he's funny as hell. Fans of The Losers will know what I mean when I say he's the Jensen of the team.

NRAMA: How is it writing Norman Osborn? How do you approach a character like that?

Andy Diggle: They key to Norman Osborn is that he thinks he's the hero. So once you view him through that lens, everything clicks into place. In that respect he's kind of similar to Max from The Losers, who also thought he was the good guy. Norman thinks everything would be fine if they'd just let him run the world. The only problem with that, of course, is that the fact that he's a dangerously bipolar psychotic.

and I really need to re-read my Losers books... :smile:

i might pick some of them up. Diggle actually has me curious. it's good to hear that he's having fun writing the new characters. sometimes i think it's better to choose relative unknowns. you can play around w/ them more/flesh them out in creative ways.

A) Yelena uses her sex appeal to her advantage. Seductive fits, if you know anything about her.
B) There isn't really anyone else on the team that could be described as "beautiful", or "seductive". When a term fits, use it. No sexism has to be inherently involved.
C) I find it interesting that you ignore the other two traits attributed to her, namely that she's "very capable" and "very deadly".

plus she's the g-damn leader of the team.

[Monty_Cristo]

Looks like i was right to drop this, not a single charater who has more intrisict worth than dog droppings, The Thunderbolts is just a villians book now, now longer an anti-hero book.

Norman Osborn as a capable leader of men? Diggle has noclue what that term actually actualy means:eek:

when, exactly, did you collect this book?

[The Cool Thatguy]

But then you do that, and Dr. Doom is a moron who can't pull one past the mildest of heroes.

Doom conqured his own nation, tangles with the FF and Avengers, stole the cosmic power from both Galactus, Silver Surfer and Beyonder. He's nothing like Norman.

Hell, Norman's the one who also put together the Ellis Thunderbolts team, the same team that got whupped by Jack Flagg and trounced by Steel Spider and American Eagle. In fact, during the first Secret Invasion crossover issue, we see Norman whining about his team's inability to come together.

His current status isn't a logical extension of his character. It's simply because Bendis likes him. 'Nuff said.

[The Cool Thatguy]

when, exactly, did you collect this book?

Hmm, maybe the first arc where the team demonstrates that they are incapable of working together. Or the second arc where telepaths utterly mind screw Norman. Or the third where, under Gage, Norman demoans the fact that the hire-ups don't trust their ability to even tackle Daredevil or Luke Cage.

I mean, come on, Norman trusts Moonstone. That says everything about his brainpower.

[Monty_Cristo]

Hmm, maybe the first arc where the team demonstrates that they are incapable of working together. Or the second arc where telepaths utterly mind screw Norman. Or the third where, under Gage, Norman demoans the fact that the hire-ups don't trust their ability to even tackle Daredevil or Luke Cage.

I mean, come on, Norman trusts Moonstone. That says everything about his brainpower.

i'm pretty sure that i asked Mike Kerr.

[Monty_Cristo]

Doom conqured his own nation, tangles with the FF and Avengers, stole the cosmic power from both Galactus, Silver Surfer and Beyonder. He's nothing like Norman.

Hell, Norman's the one who also put together the Ellis Thunderbolts team, the same team that got whupped by Jack Flagg and trounced by Steel Spider and American Eagle. In fact, during the first Secret Invasion crossover issue, we see Norman whining about his team's inability to come together.

His current status isn't a logical extension of his character. It's simply because Bendis likes him. 'Nuff said.

Norman was an administrator. Moonstone was the field-leader. and even Norman didn't have free reign. he was as much a prisoner of Thunderbolts Mountain as the rest; being forced to pop prescription pills & being unable to get rid of Penance, for instance. and, when push came to shove, he's the one who stopped Swordsman's mutiny. and he earned himself a promotion.

[Monty_Cristo]

When O'Grady is the possible hero of the story, then you know the rest of the cast is some real bastards.

i think the point is that it's not a book about heroes and villains. i'm rooting for these guys (and gal) because they are expendable. they are doing Norman's dirty work w/o the public adoration that the Dark Avengers will get. Paladin's not a villain any more than Luke Cage was. and i love the description Diggle gave him; as the "Han Solo" of the group. i've always seen him as that kind of character; he's an action junkie that found a way to get paid for what he already enjoys. and he has been heroic in the past. the draw is that his decisions are unpredictable. he might choose to take the money or he might choose to give you the finger. Ant-Man is, similarly, gray. he has stopped to help people buried alive while looting a city. he has stopped an abusive jerk from beating his wife. and he's been a jerk himself. Yelena's no more a villain than Natasha Romanoff. her job is to do what her field-handlers tell her to do. it's what she was trained to do from childhood. sometimes she's saving the world. sometimes she's doing something shady. these characters are realistically unpredictable.

[jdwrocks]

i think the point is that it's not a book about heroes and villains. i'm rooting for these guys (and gal) because they are expendable. they are doing Norman's dirty work w/o the public adoration that the Dark Avengers will get. Paladin's not a villain any more than Luke Cage was. and i love the description Diggle gave him; as the "Han Solo" of the group. i've always seen him as that kind of character; he's an action junkie that found a way to get paid for what he already enjoys. and he has been heroic in the past. the draw is that his decisions are unpredictable. he might choose to take the money or he might choose to give you the finger. Ant-Man is, similarly, gray. he has stopped to help people buried alive while looting a city. he has stopped an abusive jerk from beating his wife. and he's been a jerk himself. Yelena's no more a villain than Natasha Romanoff. her job is to do what her field-handlers tell her to do. it's what she was trained to do from childhood. sometimes she's saving the world. sometimes she's doing something shady. these characters are realistically unpredictable.
I have a feeling there are going to be replacement(s) on this team, as I think members getting killed in action is going to be happening in this series. Wouldn't surprise me a bit to see multiple team member deaths.

[StoneGold]

Bwahahahahahaha..............................:bigg rin:
What do you think Songbird and Radioactive Man are? Former D-Listers, turned C-Listers.

Yeah, but that's you changing your argument. You said Diggle was replacing them with cool characters. I said he's replacing them with D-listers who are rather uncool - it's Diggle's writing that's going to make them cool, because that's what Diggle does. If you want to complain about him making the book supervillain team up, go right ahead. Because then I'll just call you a sensitive little girl, but you'll be accurate in your argument, in your pretty pink "Tuesday" panties.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Norman was an administrator. Moonstone was the field-leader. and even Norman didn't have free reign. he was as much a prisoner of Thunderbolts Mountain as the rest; being forced to pop prescription pills & being unable to get rid of Penance, for instance. and, when push came to shove, he's the one who stopped Swordsman's mutiny. and he earned himself a promotion.

Norman created the team. He hand picked members. Thus, their effectiveness reflects on his ability.

And while he did stop Swordsman's mutiny, it was only barely intentional. Telepaths screwed him up. He was playing into their hands the whole time and it was only dumb luck that saved the team.

Plus, like I said, he trusts Moonstone. Not the mark of a genius.

i'm pretty sure that i asked Mike Kerr.

So? I was kind enough to save him the trouble of showing you how wrong you were ;) It's called doing a favor.

[Monty_Cristo]

I have a feeling there are going to be replacement(s) on this team, as I think members getting killed in action is going to be happening in this series. Wouldn't surprise me a bit to see multiple team member deaths.

wouldn't surprise me either. my money's on the guys who are least fleshed out getting killed and scapegoated, first. maybe another female character will replace one of them. i'm not sure how they'll keep Mister X around. that guy is whacked in the head. he's addicted to killing; kind of like Sabretooth.

[StoneGold]

Doom conqured his own nation, and is repeatedly overthrown tangles with the FF and Avengers, who repeatedly beat himstole the cosmic power from both Galactus, Silver Surfer and Beyonder. Which he constantly loses. He's nothing like Norman.
You're right, Doom loses bigger.

[StoneGold]

And just to reiterate, Doom loses so much, they have to make fake Dr. Dooms just to maintain some level of credibility for him. "Oh crap, Doom lost to Dazzler. Uh, it's a Doombot. Wait, he lost to the little Power Pack girl? Uh.... Doombot?"

[Monty_Cristo]

Norman created the team. He hand picked members. Thus, their effectiveness reflects on his ability.

And while he did stop Swordsman's mutiny, it was only barely intentional. Telepaths screwed him up. He was playing into their hands the whole time and it was only dumb luck that saved the team.

Plus, like I said, he trusts Moonstone. Not the mark of a genius.


he doesn't trust her any more than Zemo did. he just knows how to put people like her in their place.

So? I was kind enough to save him the trouble of showing you how wrong you were ;) It's called doing a favor.

i remain unimpressed. you didn't even understand the point either one of us was making. i was being kind by not giving you a real reply.

[Beast]

What was wrong with him being in ATI?
Cause I dislike the character. Like Stonegold said...

"Ant-Man was so uncool, Marvel couldn't cancel the book fast enough."

I'm glad he's in a book for his fans, but away from a book I enjoy.

[Monty_Cristo]

Cause I dislike the character. Like Stonegold said...

"Ant-Man was so uncool, Marvel couldn't cancel the book fast enough."

I'm glad he's in a book for his fans, but away from a book I enjoy.

yeah, i seem to remember you crying about me baiting you in another thread. do you not understand hypocrisy?

[Beast]

yeah, i seem to remember you crying about me baiting you in another thread. do you not understand hypocrisy?
You consider that baiting?

You realize this thread is about Thunderbolts and Ant-Man is a cast member... right?

What part of "Glad he's in a book for his fans" don't you seem to ujnderstand?

[The Cool Thatguy]

he doesn't trust her any more than Zemo did. he just knows how to put people like her in their place.

He trusts her to the point that he confides his plans in her and doesn't even think to look her way when his meds go funky.



i remain unimpressed. you didn't even understand the point either one of us was making. i was being kind by not giving you a real reply.

Guess people don't find it impressive when the opposing side has evidence that out weighs theirs.

And just to reiterate, Doom loses so much, they have to make fake Dr. Dooms just to maintain some level of credibility for him. "Oh crap, Doom lost to Dazzler. Uh, it's a Doombot. Wait, he lost to the little Power Pack girl? Uh.... Doombot?"

When Doom loses, it's usually to a large group of experienced and skilled heroes. When Norman loses, it's to a freelance reporter.

Not to knock Spider-Man, he's an experienced and skilled hero. But he hasn't got a fraction of the resoirces the FF or Avengers have. Hell, if Norman moved to Washington Peter wouldn't have the bus fair to go fight him. As villain's go, Norman should be minor league.

[StoneGold]

When Doom loses, it's usually to a large group of experienced and skilled heroes. When Norman loses, it's to a freelance reporter.


What about when Doom loses to Pete? Or to Dazzler, Luke Cage, I think he lost to Rage once, the Punisher... Doom's got a pretty big loss record. Against teams and individuals. And yeah, you can chalk a lot of those up to Doombots, but then man, Doom makes some crappy robots to pretend to be him. I'm not sure that's much better.


But he's the greatest villain because that's the perception of him.

And just to something you said before, he really hasn't fought the Avengers that often. I need to check, but I think he's been involved with the X-Men more.

[Monty_Cristo]

You consider that baiting?

You realize this thread is about Thunderbolts and Ant-Man is a cast member... right?

What part of "Glad he's in a book for his fans" don't you seem to ujnderstand?

you're right. it was just a childish petty backhanded insult that you didn't have the balls to fess up to. you came into a Thunderbolts thread (a book you don't plan to read) specifically to make a disparaging remark about Ant-man. i think the Beast (the character) deserves a better class of fan.

[StoneGold]

you're right. it was just a childish petty backhanded insult that you didn't have the balls to fess up to. you came into a Thunderbolts thread (a book you don't plan to read) specifically to make a disparaging remark about Ant-man. i think the Beast (the character) deserves a better class of fan.

Monty, if him saying, not to you, that he doesn't like a particular character is baiting, you've become a bit to proprietary of that character. And really, really, really susceptible to bait. You should master that.

Keep in mind, he was just quoting me. And I don't even dislike Ant-Man, I kind of like him, read the whole series, but he's not cool. That's not the point of him. Now, if you want to make fun of Beast for only liking characters with marketing pushes, be my guest.

[Monty_Cristo]

Monty, if him saying, not to you, that he doesn't like a particular character is baiting, you've become a bit to proprietary of that character. And really, really, really susceptible to bait. You should master that.

open your friggin eyes Stonegold. the guy had a grudge against me; continued from last night. you should have noticed that i didn't go after you after you called Ant-Man uncool.

[StoneGold]

open your friggin eyes Stonegold. the guy had a grudge against me; continued from last night.

Like I'm going to pay attention to something like that. But more to the point, why continue it here? Because anyone who isn't caring about what happened last night, like me, is just going to see you lashing out like an injured girl in her pretty pink panties. Yeah, I'm kind of stuck on the one metaphor.

[The Cool Thatguy]

What about when Doom loses to Pete? Or to Dazzler, Luke Cage, I think he lost to Rage once, the Punisher... Doom's got a pretty big loss record. Against teams and individuals. And yeah, you can chalk a lot of those up to Doombots, but then man, Doom makes some crappy robots to pretend to be him. I'm not sure that's much better.


But he's the greatest villain because that's the perception of him.

And just to something you said before, he really hasn't fought the Avengers that often. I need to check, but I think he's been involved with the X-Men more.

Doombots are used because everyone wants a shot at the big dog ;)

Doom tangles with the A-team on a regular basis. There are exceptions to that, true. With 30 years of story-telling, that'll happen. But that doesn't change the fact that he's still one of the most powerful villains out there. His failures are far greater than Norman's biggest success...which would be pushing Gwen Stacy off a bridge.

[Monty_Cristo]

Like I'm going to pay attention to something like that. But more to the point, why continue it here?

yeah, that's what i'm asking of Beast. he asked me not to bait him and then turned around and did it to me. and why are you involved? or why didn't you "warn me" through PM?

Because anyone who isn't caring about what happened last night, like me, is just going to see you lashing out like an injured girl in her pretty pink panties. Yeah, I'm kind of stuck on the one metaphor.

i'm not running for a political office. my image isn't in jeopardy. i just want to discuss the tbolts. that's what i was doing.

[StoneGold]

yeah, that's what i'm asking of Beast. he asked me not to bait him and then turned around and did it to me. and why are you involved? or why didn't you "warn me" through PM?
.

Because PMs are for girls in their little pink panties.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Heh, lemme cut and paste an excellent examination of why Norman ain't that great to lead the Thunderbolts. From Omar Karindu

http://www.comicboards.com/app/show.php?msg=tbolts-2008120402022526

I'm not going to harp on the problems with Norman being beloved by the public not so terribly long after Pulse #1-5 and MK Spider-Man had him blowing up policemen and attacking civilians in public and on TV; One More Day seems to have screwed up a whole lot of things overall in terms of the Osborn clan and the world's memories of them.

No, I'm thinking of how unlikely it is for Norman, as presented in quite literally every single story to date, actually being able to run SHIELD for more than ten minutes without cracking up completely and ruining himself.

For starters, Norman seriously lacks vision. Every time he's ever gotten a modicum of power or respectability, he throws it all away for one thing and one thing only: going after Spider-Man as if no one else on the planet existed (except people he can hurt or recruit to, er, go after Spider-Man).

Respected businessman? Norman'd rather fly around on a jet-sled and toss bombs at Spidey, and in a one-on-one battle he'll try to use said jet-sled to impale the webbed one without noticing tiny details like being the next guy in line for spikey pain.

Behind-the-scenes evil genius using clones and running a massive European crime syndicate? Well, besides all of that being just one big "screw with Peter Parker" plan anyway, when everything finally works out as Norman planned it...he screws it all up becaus eh's just gotta reveal himself to Spider-Man and then try to kill the hero's entire supporting cast. And if that ends in a fight with Norman getting a bagful of homemade bombs webbed to his chest as he goes down in literal flames, well, it was worth it if it hurt Peter.

Redeemed image with a side of brilliant businessman again? Norman'll chuck it all if he thinks he can beg, borrow, or steal the magical power of the Gathering of Five...with which his sole ambition, as his "gift of madness" hallucination in "The Final Chapter" revealed, was to...uh, beat up Spider-Man really bad and stuff.

And when he stil has the supervillain connections and knowledge to engineer his own jailbreak? Well, to Norman Osborn, the best thing to do with all those resources is gather twelve third-rate baddies and attack Spider-Man. Which ends in Norman fleeing the coutnry and plotting his next "screw Parker" campaign after squandering even those resources.

But it's fairly hard to run SHIELD that way, isn't it? And gicven that Norman can just barely repress his anti-Spidey psychosis with the help of his medications in Thunderbolts, it simply strains credibility that he can do it after getting the keys to the castle.

And unfortunately, Spider-Man's resilience and Norman's over-the-top craziness whenever he gets a crack at Peter Parker mean that he tends to do very, very, very shortsighted things whenever his archfoe is involved. And with SHIELD enforcing the SHRA, of which Spider-Man is among the most prominent violators....I don't see Norman keeping his new job for very long after he orders an atomic strike on Forest Hills, Queens and directs the entire resources of worldwide spy agency against a nebbishy twentysomething from New York City.

Do you?

[StoneGold]

Doombots are used because everyone wants a shot at the big dog ;)

Doom tangles with the A-team on a regular basis. There are exceptions to that, true. With 30 years of story-telling, that'll happen. But that doesn't change the fact that he's still one of the most powerful villains out there. His failures are far greater than Norman's biggest success...which would be pushing Gwen Stacy off a bridge.

Yeah, but none of Doom's successes have ever stuck.


Sure, it looked like he suicide killed Reed, and suicide killed Ben, but those lasted, what, less than a year?

And Norm didn't just kill his nemesis' girlfriend, he knocked her up first! Now that's evil!


But seriously, my point is all villains look pretty lame when you remember that all they do is lose. That's what they're there for. At least Norm has a victory under his belt. Doom, nada, unless you count fighting the Red Skull or something.

[Monty_Cristo]

Heh, lemme cut and paste an excellent examination of why Norman ain't that great to lead the Thunderbolts. From Omar Karindu

http://www.comicboards.com/app/show.php?msg=tbolts-2008120402022526

I'm not going to harp on the problems with Norman being beloved by the public not so terribly long after Pulse #1-5 and MK Spider-Man had him blowing up policemen and attacking civilians in public and on TV; One More Day seems to have screwed up a whole lot of things overall in terms of the Osborn clan and the world's memories of them.

No, I'm thinking of how unlikely it is for Norman, as presented in quite literally every single story to date, actually being able to run SHIELD for more than ten minutes without cracking up completely and ruining himself.

For starters, Norman seriously lacks vision. Every time he's ever gotten a modicum of power or respectability, he throws it all away for one thing and one thing only: going after Spider-Man as if no one else on the planet existed (except people he can hurt or recruit to, er, go after Spider-Man).

Respected businessman? Norman'd rather fly around on a jet-sled and toss bombs at Spidey, and in a one-on-one battle he'll try to use said jet-sled to impale the webbed one without noticing tiny details like being the next guy in line for spikey pain.

Behind-the-scenes evil genius using clones and running a massive European crime syndicate? Well, besides all of that being just one big "screw with Peter Parker" plan anyway, when everything finally works out as Norman planned it...he screws it all up becaus eh's just gotta reveal himself to Spider-Man and then try to kill the hero's entire supporting cast. And if that ends in a fight with Norman getting a bagful of homemade bombs webbed to his chest as he goes down in literal flames, well, it was worth it if it hurt Peter.

Redeemed image with a side of brilliant businessman again? Norman'll chuck it all if he thinks he can beg, borrow, or steal the magical power of the Gathering of Five...with which his sole ambition, as his "gift of madness" hallucination in "The Final Chapter" revealed, was to...uh, beat up Spider-Man really bad and stuff.

And when he stil has the supervillain connections and knowledge to engineer his own jailbreak? Well, to Norman Osborn, the best thing to do with all those resources is gather twelve third-rate baddies and attack Spider-Man. Which ends in Norman fleeing the coutnry and plotting his next "screw Parker" campaign after squandering even those resources.

But it's fairly hard to run SHIELD that way, isn't it? And gicven that Norman can just barely repress his anti-Spidey psychosis with the help of his medications in Thunderbolts, it simply strains credibility that he can do it after getting the keys to the castle.

And unfortunately, Spider-Man's resilience and Norman's over-the-top craziness whenever he gets a crack at Peter Parker mean that he tends to do very, very, very shortsighted things whenever his archfoe is involved. And with SHIELD enforcing the SHRA, of which Spider-Man is among the most prominent violators....I don't see Norman keeping his new job for very long after he orders an atomic strike on Forest Hills, Queens and directs the entire resources of worldwide spy agency against a nebbishy twentysomething from New York City.

Do you?

wow that was boring. and all you've demonstrated is that Spider-man writers are short-sighted and only interested in using Osborn as a threat to Spider-man. now Norman's a threat to the entire Marvel Universe. he has more to obsess about.

Because PMs are for girls in their little pink panties.

well then you can't really get on my case about bringing yesterday's crap to this thread. and, trust me, it wasn't about my "feelings" being hurt. i made sure to mention hypocrisy in the my first response. i'm showing him that he's as guilty as i am. there are just things you can't say on these boards so i had to go the girly route.

[jdwrocks]

I'm glad he'll be in a book for his fans. And out of Avengers: The Initiative for me.

It's a win win situation for all involved! :biggrin:
I thought Eric was a great fit in A:TI. Some of the better moments involved Ant-man. The comment he made about Ms. Marvel, blaming the previous Ant-Man for Eric's Voyerism, and the fight that ensued was a great moment. I also liked how he & Taskmaster were getting along.

I'm little unsure how he's gonna fit on this version of the T-bolts. You just know he's gonna run before completing a mission if he thinks anything bad will happen to him. Although he has proven to tell the most unbelievable lie & get away with it. He's turned wriggling out of a jam into an art form.

[Monty_Cristo]

I thought Eric was a great fit in A:TI. Some of the better moments involved Ant-man. The comment he made about Ms. Marvel, blaming the previous Ant-Man for Eric's Voyerism, and the fight that ensued was a great moment. I also liked how he & Taskmaster were getting along.

I'm little unsure how he's gonna fit on this version of the T-bolts. You just know he's gonna run before completing a mission if he thinks anything bad will happen to him. Although he has proven to tell the most unbelievable lie & get away with it. He's turned wriggling out of a jam into an art form.

i'm not sure if running is an option this time. some of the guys he's been teamed with are hardcore psychopaths. and, like the interview said, Norman's not a forgiving boss. i trust that Eric will do his job and just continually watch his back. luckily he's one of the stealth agents, so i doubt they'd be forcing him into a fire-fight.

[Monty_Cristo]

in lieu of another thread/poll: Who do you expect to be the stand out member of the Thunderbolts cast?


my speculation is that the Ghost is going to be the one to watch. he's anti-corporate, extremely paranoid, most certainly insane, and highly intelligent. i can't wait for some Ghost scenes. he's one of those supervillains who has few appearances but all entertaining. i loved the interplay between he and Spymaster in Iron Man: the Inevitable. and the idea that he's spending all of his time intangible is really interesting; howard hughesesque.

[jdwrocks]

in lieu of another thread/poll: Who do you expect to be the stand out member of the Thunderbolts cast?


my speculation is that the Ghost is going to be the one to watch. he's anti-corporate, extremely paranoid, most certainly insane, and highly intelligent. i can't wait for some Ghost scenes. he's one of those supervillains who has few appearances but all entertaining. i loved the interplay between he and Spymaster in Iron Man: the Inevitable. and the idea that he's spending all of his time intangible is really interesting; howard hughesesque.
Well, with what Diggle said concerning the Ghost in his interview at Newsrama, i think that's where I read it. Anyways he said he's going to focus on how the Ghost is spending mor & more time in his phased or ghost mode, that he's losing touch with his physical self, or something to that effect. I should look up the interview again & paste some quotes.

That sounds like an interesting way to portray the Ghost. Based on what Diggle said I think that might be why the Ghost looks so different on that cover by Langley.

Personally I want to see alot of Paladin. I've always dug that character. And would like to see him fleshed out more than being a gun-for-hire playboy.

[Monty_Cristo]

Well, with what Diggle said concerning the Ghost in his interview at Newsrama, i think that's where I read it. Anyways he said he's going to focus on how the Ghost is spending mor & more time in his phased or ghost mode, that he's losing touch with his physical self, or something to that effect. I should look up the interview again & paste some quotes.

That sounds like an interesting way to portray the Ghost. Based on what Diggle said I think that might be why the Ghost looks so different on that cover by Langley.

Personally I want to see alot of Paladin. I've always dug that character. And would like to see him fleshed out more than being a gun-for-hire playboy.

oh i'm sure that he'll get some great lines. but Paladin's the kind of guy who only works if you don't flesh him out. he's supposed to be like a less refined less-british version of James Bond. plus, he's not stupid enough to divulge personal info to people like Osborn or the other tbolts.

[Joe Franklin]

Yeah, but that's you changing your argument. You said Diggle was replacing them with cool characters. I said he's replacing them with D-listers who are rather uncool - it's Diggle's writing that's going to make them cool, because that's what Diggle does. If you want to complain about him making the book supervillain team up, go right ahead. Because then I'll just call you a sensitive little girl, but you'll be accurate in your argument, in your pretty pink "Tuesday" panties.

No, you misread my post. I posted I am glad Songbird and Radioactive Man are gone. The characters Diggle is bringing in are already better then those do gooder wimps.

[Joe Franklin]

So? I was kind enough to save him the trouble of showing you how wrong you were ;) It's called doing a favor.

According to Marvel's writing staff, you are wrong.

So who is right? The owners of the character, or you?

I'll go with Marvel, since you have never written a published Norman Osborn story yourself.

[Monty_Cristo]

i found the Ellis Bolts entertaining enough (mostly Moonstone and Norman). but i'm very excited to read about this new batch and kind of uninterested in the Dark Avengers.

[Will.S]

No, you misread my post. I posted I am glad Songbird and Radioactive Man are gone. The characters Diggle is bringing in are already better then those do gooder wimps.
I liked them both as Thunderbolts but it's certainly time for new blood.

[Joe Franklin]

Because PMs are for girls in their little pink panties.

This we can agree on my friend.:biggrin:

[Joe Franklin]

Squirrel Girl beat Doom's @ss all by herself. Nuff said.

Courtesy of Steve Ditko http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/DrDoomSquirrels.png

[CyberHubbs]

Squirrel Girl beat Doom's @ss all by herself. Nuff said.

Courtesy of Steve Ditko http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/DrDoomSquirrels.png

I'm going to use 'vex' in a real conversation at least once before the week ends.

[jdwrocks]

No, you misread my post. I posted I am glad Songbird and Radioactive Man are gone. The characters Diggle is bringing in are already better then those do gooder wimps.
That do-gooder wimp Rad-Man could take out the entire cast of the new team in under 60 seconds.

I told you once already, dont be dissin the Rad-Man!:evilsmile:

I do agree though, that Chen is not a good fit for this team, but it does sound like he's going to make an appearance in T-bolts again. I think he'd make a great reappearing character in the Iron Man series, this time on Tony's side.

[Monty_Cristo]

That do-gooder wimp Rad-Man could take out the entire cast of the new team in under 60 seconds.

I told you once already, dont be dissin the Rad-Man!:evilsmile:

I do agree though, that Chen is not a good fit for this team, but it does sound like he's going to make an appearance in T-bolts again. I think he'd make a great reappearing character in the Iron Man series, this time on Tony's side.

yeah, i could see Songbird and Lu becoming recurring characters; taking on roles similar to Steel Spider and Jack Flag. that would be neat.

[Joe Franklin]

That do-gooder wimp Rad-Man could take out the entire cast of the new team in under 60 seconds.

I told you once already, dont be dissin the Rad-Man!:evilsmile:


He used to be one of my faves as well, but then the T-Bolts book ruined him.:frown:

It all started with the cheap tyvec suit.

[jdwrocks]

He used to be one of my faves as well, but then the T-Bolts book ruined him.:frown:

It all started with the cheap tyvec suit.
Are you serious. That suit rocks. I wanna get one for myself & paint my face green & go out to the bars dressed like that!:cool:

[Monty_Cristo]

Are you serious. That suit rocks. I wanna get one for myself & paint my face green & go out to the bars dressed like that!:cool:

it'd be ballsier to go dressed in his old costume. :biggrin:

P.s. it still wouldn't be as bad as the Smurf costume someone was wearing out this past Halloween. you don't even know what the smurf tail was.

[jdwrocks]

it'd be ballsier to go dressed in his old costume. :biggrin:

P.s. it still wouldn't be as bad as the Smurf costume someone was wearing out this past Halloween. you don't even know what the smurf tail was.
What I loved about Rad's costume was that it wasn't a costume. Just a plain old Radiation suit, and that's what made it cool in my eyes. No sense for fashion makes it fashion cool. Sometimes practicality wins out.

[Monty_Cristo]

"The Losers' reimagining was set against events surrounding and including the War on Terror. Originally a Special Forces team seconded to the C.I.A. in the 90s, the Losers were betrayed by their handler, Max, and left for dead following the conclusion of their operation. Eager for revenge and the opportunity to remove their names from a secret CIA death list, the Losers regroup and conduct covert operations against the CIA and its interests, uncovering startling operations spearheaded by the enigmatic Max, whose influence within the CIA and US Government is unparalleled."

hmmmmmmmmmmm...

[Tobias March]

They should've used a mixture of A-Listers and lesser known characters... that way, they can sell the book with iconic characters while also fleshing out characters who had never been previously.

I do find it slightly irritating that the only female character on the team is described in only three traits, and one has to be "seductive." Why does the token female always have to be seductive? It's like when talk show hosts introduce female guests and they're all, "the beautiful ____." Can men not be seductive? Why should the one female be seductive and not one of the six men?

I SENSE SEXISM AFOOT.

You need to read the Losers, which also had one female cast member.

And she kicked arse :smile:

[Mundungus]

The last time I saw Yelena she was the new something-or-other in the New Avengers Annual getting her ass handed to her by the Sentry and then exploding.

She apparently got better.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

And I know whom to root for - Andy Diggle. DC so underused him, it was criminal.

I totally agree. It's great to see Marvel giving him such a free reign on this title. I have high hopes.

Looks like i was right to drop this, not a single charater who has more intrisict worth than dog droppings, The Thunderbolts is just a villians book now, now longer an anti-hero book.

Norman Osborn as a capable leader of men? Diggle has noclue what that term actually actualy means:eek:

I hate to say it Mikekerr, but I think it might be you who's misunderstanding that statement rather Diggle.

Osborn is a proven leader of men, in the boardroom, on the Thunderbolts and now on a much greater scale. That doesn't mean that he's not still a complete mental £$%k up, with very little care for actual human life, of course. But then so arguable was Adolf Hitler, so was Slobodan Milosovic so is Robert Mugabe.

You can't debate, tough, that at their peak all three of those men were seen by their people to BE great leaders. Largely because they were able to present themselves as National Heroes, and to hide a lot of the evil deeds they were perpetrating from day to day from their people.

Is Osborn that different? Sure, he's not committing genocide on any kind of comparable level but the people he employs and favours are just as ruthless (In comic book terms, obviously) as the men employed by any of those guys.

You may only see him as a 70s Spider-man villain, but he's not been that guy for over a decade and he has been built up into being a hell of a lot more today.

Thank **** for that. I'm tired of the tired "hero" cliche.

I'd have to say I largely agree with you there.

Bwahahahahahaha..............................:bigg rin:

What do you think Songbird and Radioactive Man are? Former D-Listers, turned C-Listers.

Exactly. I mean ever since its creation Thunderbolts has been a book which has always been about taking minor characters and making something out of them. Screaming Mimi was an obscure character that nobody would have taken seriously. They made her into Songbird. Now people give a damn about her.

Heck before Thunderbolts even Zemo was considered to be a bit of a joke. But the book built him up into a credible character. It the title's nature. And as long as there's a good writer behind it even the most obscure characters can be fascinating.

I have a feeling there are going to be replacement(s) on this team, as I think members getting killed in action is going to be happening in this series. Wouldn't surprise me a bit to see multiple team member deaths.

I know what you mean. And if not actual deaths then reasons for taking characters away from the team. I expect a bit of a revolving cast here. I a good way, of course.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Osborn is a proven leader of men, in the boardroom, on the Thunderbolts and now on a much greater scale. That doesn't mean that he's not still a complete mental £$%k up, with very little care for actual human life, of course. But then so arguable was Adolf Hitler, so was Slobodan Milosovic so is Robert Mugabe.

You can't debate, tough, that at their peak all three of those men were seen by their people to BE great leaders. Largely because they were able to present themselves as National Heroes, and to hide a lot of the evil deeds they were perpetrating from day to day from their people.

Is Osborn that different? Sure, he's not committing genocide on any kind of comparable level but the people he employs and favours are just as ruthless (In comic book terms, obviously) as the men employed by any of those guys.

You may only see him as a 70s Spider-man villain, but he's not been that guy for over a decade and he has been built up into being a hell of a lot more today.

No he hasn't. The first two arcs deliberately emphasized how Norman was hanging on by a thread. In the first Secret Invasion tie in issue, we see him whining about his team's effectiveness as they struggled against Swarm, a guy the Runaways put down.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

No he hasn't. The first two arcs deliberately emphasized how Norman was hanging on by a thread. In the first Secret Invasion tie in issue, we see him whining about his team's effectiveness as they struggled against Swarm, a guy the Runaways put down.

Yes - he whines, yes - he condemns people, yes - he's a double-dealing sod, and yes - he uses people to achieve his own ends. But that's how he's built up his powerbase. Using business interests and good personal fortune to buy political favour. He's the perfect politician. And like a good many politicians he's a duplicitous man who shouldn't be in charge - but who can find ways of portraying himself as a leader of men.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yes - he whines, yes - he condemns people, yes - he's a double-dealing sod, and yes - he uses people to achieve his own ends. But that's how he's built up his powerbase. Using business interests and good personal fortune to buy political favour. He's the perfect politician. And like a good many politicians he's a duplicitous man who shouldn't be in charge - but who can find ways of portraying himself as a leader of men.

Most politicians can do that well and mange their own power. Norman can't. We've seen that a million times.

How many times did he piss everything away for another shot at Spider-Man? In Thunderbolts, his only saving grace is that his superiors are even dumber than usual.

Norman owes his current position solely to luck and being a Bendis pet. If Swordsman can push his buttons, you think Doom or Emma couldn't?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Most politicians can do that well and mange their own power. Norman can't. We've seen that a million times.

How many times did he piss everything away for another shot at Spider-Man?

Not since the start of his tenure on Thunderbolts. Even his brief reversion to the Goblin has been managed. His not really considered to be a Spider-man character anymore - because that is what editorial have decided. You might not like that. But that's the way things have been these past two years, and it's the way they are going to stay for the foreseeable future.

In Thunderbolts, his only saving grace is that his superiors are even dumber than usual.

Correction: In the greater Marvel Universe his superiors are dumber than usual. This is bigger than Thunderbolts now.

Norman owes his current position solely to luck and being a Bendis pet.

He owes his position to being in the right place at the right time, and the fluke of his own megalomaniacal insistence that the whole Thunderbolts operation was run off his own technology. It's allowed him to head straight to Washington and appear on camera defeating Skrulls in front of the Whitehouse, and been back in New York to fire that winning shot.

It's not only Bendis who likes him. There's a lot of other people who like the idea of using him this way. Clearly you don't, but then you're not the one writing and publishing the ooks.

If Swordsman can push his buttons, you think Doom or Emma couldn't?

Yes, but they're not going to, because he has brokered a deal with them. It's more advantageous to them to be on his side right now, because he has the power in the new status quo.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Not since the start of his tenure on Thunderbolts. Even his brief reversion to the Goblin has been managed. His not really considered to be a Spider-man character anymore - because that is what editorial have decided. You might not like that. But that's the way things have been these past two years, and it's the way they are going to stay for the foreseeable future.

Heh, nice attempt at evasion ;)

And to answer, Norman's threatened his position because of Spider-Man twice now already. He targetted Steel Spider because of his fetish and wiped out the registration data-base.

And regardless of that, I was referring to his prior qualifications. Norman's given up everything, entire secret societies, to beat Spider-Man and lost. He's exceptionally short sighted.


Correction: In the greater Marvel Universe his superiors are dumber than usual. This is bigger than Thunderbolts now..

That's not a sign of intelligence though, when you have to rely on the fact that your superiors are idiots who fail to notice your screw-ups.

He owes his position to being in the right place at the right time, and the fluke of his own megalomaniacal insistence that the whole Thunderbolts operation was run off his own technology. It's allowed him to head straight to Washington and appear on camera defeating Skrulls in front of the Whitehouse, and been back in New York to fire that winning shot..

True enough. But I was referring to his prior qualifications. To act as if he's always been some smooth high roller though, is pure bull.

It's not only Bendis who likes him. There's a lot of other people who like the idea of using him this way. Clearly you don't, but then you're not the one writing and publishing the ooks..

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. No smart writer is going to voice their displeasure about an employer unless they're on the level of Ellis et all and if they are, then they're immune to mandates and just don't care.

Though honestly, I fail to see what it matters.

Yes, but they're not going to, because he has brokered a deal with them. It's more advantageous to them to be on his side right now, because he has the power in the new status quo.

Until he screws it up or they get a better deal. For a guy you tout as some genius, born leader of men, he's hanging on by a thread.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Heh, nice attempt at evasion ;)

Not evasion in the slightest. I'm answering to your point.

And to answer, Norman's threatened his position because of Spider-Man twice now already. He targetted Steel Spider because of his fetish and wiped out the registration data-base.

And has anybody chucked him out? Has anybody in a position of actual power FOUND him out? No. Because Norman Osborn is like Teflon. Nothing will ever stick. Because even his dodgiest past elements get overlooked on the grounds that he still portrays himself to the public as a self-made American businessman, who's worked hard to live the dream, and now as a genuine National Hero who fought for the liberties of his Country if not the Whole World. The camera surely doesn't lie :rolleyes: You'd be surprised how many other things people are willing to overlook when they NEED a hero figure to look up to.

And regardless of that, I was referring to his prior qualifications. Norman's given up everything, entire secret societies, to beat Spider-Man and lost. He's exceptionally short sighted.

He stark raving mad. But he's a driven man. He may have given up lots in his private vendetta, but he's always got it back because also incredibly clever. The world's most evil men often are.

That's not a sign of intelligence though, when you have to rely on the fact that your superiors are idiots who fail to notice your screw-ups.

It's more that he's had the foresight to cover up his little outbursts, to sever links to his deeds, before those superiors find out. That does require quite a lot of intelligence.

True enough. But I was referring to his prior qualifications. To act as if he's always been some smooth high roller though, is pure bull.

He's not smooth deep down, no. But his public image has always been VERY important to him. And he's always worked very hard to maintain that facade. He knows how lie through his teeth very well indeed.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. No smart writer is going to voice their displeasure about an employer unless they're on the level of Ellis et all and if they are, then they're immune to mandates and just don't care.

Though honestly, I fail to see what it matters.

What I'm getting at is that there has been a big change in status quo here. Bendis may have written it, but majority of people from an editorial point of view had to agree to it. They could have stepped in and changed things if they felt that they had needed to (Just ask JMS about that....).

You can rant about it all you like, but this is how the books are going to be for the next while.

Until he screws it up or they get a better deal. For a guy you tout as some genius, born leader of men, he's hanging on by a thread.

I'm not touting him as being flawless. Quite far from it. I'm touting him as being a superbly calculated liar, who has a knack for assembling people and controlling them to his own will, via any nasty means he deems necessary.

Any one of the villains at that table could turn upon hm if the time was right, but right now he's holding all the cards, and apparently has an ace up his sleeve.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And has anybody chucked him out? Has anybody in a position of actual power FOUND him out? No. Because Norman Osborn is like Teflon. Nothing will ever stick. Because even his dodgiest past elements get overlooked on the grounds that he still portrays himself to the public as a self-made American businessman, who's worked hard to live the dream, and now as a genuine National Hero who fought for the liberties of his Country if not the Whole World. The camera surely doesn't lie :rolleyes: You'd be surprised how many other things people are willing to overlook when they NEED a hero figure to look up to..

There are some things that people never come back from, though. Comics vastly overstates a person's ability to redeem themselves in the public's eye.

To a degree, this is needed for ongoing fiction. Like the massive amount of prison break outs and the unwillingness of anyone to kill say, the Joker, it's something we ought to accept with a handwave.

But Norman's acceptance strains credability even when you accept those other elements. He beat a reporter to death and killed several police officers on national television in front of a court house. To then turn around and say that those same institutions would accept him with open arms strains credability.

He stark raving mad. But he's a driven man. He may have given up lots in his private vendetta, but he's always got it back because also incredibly clever. The world's most evil men often are..

Norman's not clever in the least. When the police confronted him about a possible murder, instead of producing an iron clad alibi, he hopped on his glider, blew up his office and tried to make a break for it.

It's more that he's had the foresight to cover up his little outbursts, to sever links to his deeds, before those superiors find out. That does require quite a lot of intelligence..

Not really. Apparently, his superiors never bother to look at the evidence or to question anything he says. We've never seen him under scrutiny, really.

He's not smooth deep down, no. But his public image has always been VERY important to him. And he's always worked very hard to maintain that facade. He knows how lie through his teeth very well indeed..

His ability to lie was always based on the fact that Spider-Man had no forum with which to defend himself. Slandering Spidey isn't that hard.

What I'm getting at is that there has been a big change in status quo here. Bendis may have written it, but majority of people from an editorial point of view had to agree to it. They could have stepped in and changed things if they felt that they had needed to (Just ask JMS about that....).

You can rant about it all you like, but this is how the books are going to be for the next while. .

Yes, citing evidence and past storylines, truly a rant :rolleyes:

And the key word is 'editors', not 'writers'. :biggrin:

I'm not touting him as being flawless. Quite far from it. I'm touting him as being a superbly calculated liar, who has a knack for assembling people and controlling them to his own will, via any nasty means he deems necessary. .

A knack? He assembled 12 villains just to attack Spider-Man and still failed. The incompotence of the Thunderbolts was a running subplot since Norman took over the team, a team he created.

After 30 years, Norman might be due for some brains. I'm just saying, they've been missing for a while now ;)

Any one of the villains at that table could turn upon hm if the time was right, but right now he's holding all the cards, and apparently has an ace up his sleeve.

Like Emma or Doom couldn't swipe that ace with a few choice words? Again, Norman's hanging on by a thread. It might be interesting to read, sure, but hardly comes off as all that impressive.

[Beadle]

Again, Norman's hanging on by a thread. It might be interesting to read, sure, but hardly comes off as all that impressive.
But that's exactly the point. It's interesting to read. Why read about somebody who's always completely in control unless they're a foil for other central characters? It's dull. Even Layla Miller has blind spots, and she's never been the central character.

And also, what's more impressive - hanging on despite everything going pear-shaped around you and somehow managing to maintain some control, or being completely in control of every situation and never having to worry? Something that takes no effort to control isn't impressive - it's easy.

I think Norman knows he's playing out of his league with Doom, Loki and Dormammu (if he understands the source of the Hood's power). But he's got the balls to go for it anyway.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I think Norman knows he's playing out of his league with Doom, Loki and Dormammu (if he understands the source of the Hood's power). But he's got the balls to go for it anyway.

I totally agree.

[The Cool Thatguy]

But that's exactly the point. It's interesting to read. Why read about somebody who's always completely in control unless they're a foil for other central characters? It's dull. Even Layla Miller has blind spots, and she's never been the central character.

And also, what's more impressive - hanging on despite everything going pear-shaped around you and somehow managing to maintain some control, or being completely in control of every situation and never having to worry? Something that takes no effort to control isn't impressive - it's easy.

I think Norman knows he's playing out of his league with Doom, Loki and Dormammu (if he understands the source of the Hood's power). But he's got the balls to go for it anyway.

It's an interesting concept no doubt.

But for me, it lacks punch. It was poorly foreshadowed because up until now, Norman's ineffectiveness was a plot point. Norman isn't sympathetic in any way shape or form and as a villain he hasn't lacked for exposure.

Worse, this takes him away from his core concept as a Spider-Man villain and transforms him into a generic Lex Luthor knock off, but minus anything that makes Lex interesting.

[StoneGold]

Worse, this takes him away from his core concept as a Spider-Man villain and transforms him into a generic Lex Luthor knock off, but minus anything that makes Lex interesting.

You mean being bald?


Because I think the cornrows beat that.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You mean being bald?


Because I think the cornrows beat that.

So you find bald people automatically interesting?:tongue:

[Beadle]

Worse, this takes him away from his core concept as a Spider-Man villain and transforms him into a generic Lex Luthor knock off, but minus anything that makes Lex interesting.
Oh, I dunno.... At least Norman can still be interesting in a green battle-suit. Lexy? Not so much.

[StoneGold]

So you find bald people automatically interesting?:tongue:

No, I'm just trying to figure out what separates Lex from any other would-be world conquerer. Although I'll admit, I haven't read the book in a while, so I have no idea which version of Lex Luthor they're using now. Given they reboot the character every couple of years, I'm wondering what is it specifically, beyond his history to the franchise, that makes him so interesting.

[Monty_Cristo]

It's an interesting concept no doubt.

But for me, it lacks punch. It was poorly foreshadowed because up until now, Norman's ineffectiveness was a plot point.

yeah, well now he's getting the Claremont-Magneto treatment. he's being elevated to A-List villain. why are you balking at this? why not go with the flow? if he's unstable it's just a built-in reason for the heroes to eventually win. i'm more interested in the actual black ops team than Osborn, anyways.

[The Cool Thatguy]

yeah, well now he's getting the Claremont-Magneto treatment. he's being elevated to A-List villain. why are you balking at this? why not go with the flow? if he's unstable it's just a built-in reason for the heroes to eventually win. i'm more interested in the actual black ops team than Osborn, anyways.

Hmm, all the 'good comics' jokes aside...

Because the plot relies on Bendis for it to be worth while. Look at how he botched his own heavily foreshadowed plot with Secret Invasion. It's not convincing in it's foreshadowing, it's execution is only mildly interesting and the pay off will be terrible. That enough?

[StoneGold]

Hmm, all the 'good comics' jokes aside...

Because the plot relies on Bendis for it to be worth while. Look at how he botched his own heavily foreshadowed plot with Secret Invasion. It's not convincing in it's foreshadowing, it's execution is only mildly interesting and the pay off will be terrible. That enough?

Only that you're making your own imaginary comics.

Simply put, Andy Diggle is one of the most criminally underused writers in comics the last couple of years. I think all he's done lately was Hellblazer, but his Losers and Adam Strange work was top notch. Now he's on a book that suddenly finds itself central to the core concept of the MU these days. Gonna be fun seeing what he does.


But you've apparently already written a crappy Thunderbolts series in your mind, so you go off and enjoy that.

[CyberHubbs]

Hmm, all the 'good comics' jokes aside...

Because the plot relies on Bendis for it to be worth while. Look at how he botched his own heavily foreshadowed plot with Secret Invasion. It's not convincing in it's foreshadowing, it's execution is only mildly interesting and the pay off will be terrible. That enough?

Then I guess you won't be reading any of it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

No, I'm just trying to figure out what separates Lex from any other would-be world conquerer. Although I'll admit, I haven't read the book in a while, so I have no idea which version of Lex Luthor they're using now. Given they reboot the character every couple of years, I'm wondering what is it specifically, beyond his history to the franchise, that makes him so interesting.

You aren't trying very hard, really, as it's stated very often. Luthor's motivation, at least on it's surface, is to save humanity from relying on a big dumb alien. To have a humanity that saves themselves, solves their own problems instead of relying on someone who doesn't belong.

Norman's motivation is what? He's just power hungry, angry and insane. None of which are very interesting or complex. Hell, he doesn't even have style.

Only that you're making your own imaginary comics.

Simply put, Andy Diggle is one of the most criminally underused writers in comics the last couple of years. I think all he's done lately was Hellblazer, but his Losers and Adam Strange work was top notch. Now he's on a book that suddenly finds itself central to the core concept of the MU these days. Gonna be fun seeing what he does.


But you've apparently already written a crappy Thunderbolts series in your mind, so you go off and enjoy that.

Bendis is the one who's gonna be pushing and shaping Dark Reign. Diggle is just a care taker, really. Bendis calls the shots. And Bendis struggles to end his long story arcs.

And really, I was just taking issue with the whole 'Norman is a born leader' bull that was coming up. I'm not impressed with what I've seen so far, but it's early.

Oh, and since we ain't seen the main team yet, I ain't the one reading imaginary comics here.

[StoneGold]

You aren't trying very hard, really, as it's stated very often. Luthor's motivation, at least on it's surface, is to save humanity from relying on a big dumb alien. To have a humanity that saves themselves, solves their own problems instead of relying on someone who doesn't belong.

I thought it was back because Superboy made him lose all his hair? Didn't they revert back to a Silver Age Luthor?


Like I said, every couple of years they totally reboot Luthor. When Byrne was doing him, it's because he had to be the biggest man in town. Then he was a hairy Australian for a bit. You're retconning retcons.

[StoneGold]

Bendis is the one who's gonna be pushing and shaping Dark Reign. Diggle is just a care taker, really. Bendis calls the shots. And Bendis struggles to end his long story arcs.

And really, I was just taking issue with the whole 'Norman is a born leader' bull that was coming up. I'm not impressed with what I've seen so far, but it's early.

Yeah, like people claimed Bendis did with Ellis' Bolts, even though it was Millar who set it up, and no, that was all pure Ellis. I ain't buying it. You're trying to write stories yourself that haven't been written yet.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah, like people claimed Bendis did with Ellis' Bolts, even though it was Millar who set it up, and no, that was all pure Ellis. I ain't buying it. You're trying to write stories yourself that haven't been written yet.

"People" ain't me.

My main arguement is that what's been done with Norman up until now is poor writing that doesn't reflect the character's past. And though that takes issue with a statement Diggle made in an interview (how damned I must be!), I don't recall taking major issue with what he has planned. It hardly impresses me, but as of yet, Norman aside, I've not seen much wrong with it. Perhaps because we've seen so little of it.

Really, you're the one who's reading stories that haven't been written. You're the one who's turned an arguement against Norman's current characterization into some anti-Diggle (heh) platform.

So you might wanna get your eyes checked. You're the one who's seeing things that aren't there, not me.

[StoneGold]

"People" ain't me.

My main arguement is that what's been done with Norman up until now is poor writing that doesn't reflect the character's past. And though that takes issue with a statement Diggle made in an interview (how damned I must be!), I don't recall taking major issue with what he has planned. It hardly impresses me, but as of yet, Norman aside, I've not seen much wrong with it. Perhaps because we've seen so little of it.

Really, you're the one who's reading stories that haven't been written. You're the one who's turned an arguement against Norman's current characterization into some anti-Diggle (heh) platform.

So you might wanna get your eyes checked. You're the one who's seeing things that aren't there, not me.

No, you're mixing up two separate things that I am saying. I'm saying that you're saying the book is going to suck because it's Norman being different (which if you were going to complain about, the past year or so he's been doing it under Ellis would have been a good time) and because it's flowing out of Bendis. I'm saying you're constructing your own fictional world where the comic is going to suck.

The Diggle thing was a separate argument. That was me saying that even if what you are saying is true, it doesn't matter, because Diggle is a good enough writer to pull it off.

[The Cool Thatguy]

No, you're mixing up two separate things that I am saying. I'm saying that you're saying the book is going to suck because it's Norman being different (which if you were going to complain about, the past year or so he's been doing it under Ellis would have been a good time) and because it's flowing out of Bendis. I'm saying you're constructing your own fictional world where the comic is going to suck.

The Diggle thing was a separate argument. That was me saying that even if what you are saying is true, it doesn't matter, because Diggle is a good enough writer to pull it off.

Thank you for at least admitting you were putting words in my mouth. You can stop now.

I didn't complain about Norman in Thunderbolts under Ellis because, aside from his appointment, his characterization didn't change much. He was still a wackjob with tunnel vision. His ineffectiveness was observed and commented on plenty of times.

Really, if they wanted to make him a smooth operator, they should have been doing that when he ran Thunderbolts. But his ineffectiveness was commented on relentlessly, including the first issue of the Secret Invasion issue. So yeah, I think this sudden shift to 'mastermind bad ass' is a little jarring. Especially when Bendis is at the helm.

[Big Red Spider]

Wrong thread. Doh.

[StoneGold]

Thank you for at least admitting you were putting words in my mouth. You can stop now.
.

You are hilariously ironic.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You are hilariously ironic.

And there ain't no polite term for what you're bein'.

[mikekerr3]

I hate to say it Mikekerr, but I think it might be you who's misunderstanding that statement rather Diggle.

Osborn is a proven leader of men, in the boardroom, on the Thunderbolts and now on a much greater scale. That doesn't mean that he's not still a complete mental £$%k up, with very little care for actual human life, of course. But then so arguable was Adolf Hitler, so was Slobodan Milosovic so is Robert Mugabe.

You can't debate, tough, that at their peak all three of those men were seen by their people to BE great leaders. Largely because they were able to present themselves as National Heroes, and to hide a lot of the evil deeds they were perpetrating from day to day from their people.

Is Osborn that different? Sure, he's not committing genocide on any kind of comparable level but the people he employs and favours are just as ruthless (In comic book terms, obviously) as the men employed by any of those guys.

You may only see him as a 70s Spider-man villain, but he's not been that guy for over a decade and he has been built up into being a hell of a lot more today.

The others you mentioned had something in common that made them leaders of men that Osborn does not

They inspired people to fight for their cause to become believers in that cause Osborn has how many people who know him that believe in him or his cause?

They inspired loyalty in their followers: Osborn inspiring loyalty ROTFLMAO

They were competent in leading the fight for that cause. Osborn as the leader of the Thunderbolts was grossly incompitent, Jack Flagg gave them a good fight :rolleyes:

Osborn only leadership skill it the ruthless application of power, that dioes not make him a leader of men, just a bully with power.

The only reason that Osborn is in any position of power is that Marvel editorial seems to want to push how stupid and hateful the population of the MU are. They are willing to go to any amount of PIS to get there.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Hmm, all the 'good comics' jokes aside...

Because the plot relies on Bendis for it to be worth while. Look at how he botched his own heavily foreshadowed plot with Secret Invasion. It's not convincing in it's foreshadowing, it's execution is only mildly interesting and the pay off will be terrible. That enough?

To be fair to Bendis here the foreshadowing was incredibly in-depth and thought through. The flaw was in the way the entire of Secret Invasion was put out, in terms of timing, pace, order of events. It was a mish-mash of styles, and none of the meat of the story was told in the Secret Invasion series, but in the other Avengers titles. It was bad story-telling of good material. Which is why it's such a damned shame.

But I would disagree that it's all down to Bendis from here on. There are plenty of other writers who made better use of Secret Invasion for their own tie-ins (Abnett and Lanning on Nova, Paul Cornell on Captain Britain, Gage on Thunderbolts, Mike Carey on SI:X-Men) and there will be plenty others who make good use of the principles Dark Reign will set up.

It's beginning to feel like you're just mad at Bendis and won't be swayed no matter what, here.

[The Cool Thatguy]

To be fair to Bendis here the foreshadowing was incredibly in-depth and thought through. The flaw was in the way the entire of Secret Invasion was put out, in terms of timing, pace, order of events. It was a mish-mash of styles, and none of the meat of the story was told in the Secret Invasion series, but in the other Avengers titles. It was bad story-telling of good material. Which is why it's such a damned shame.

But I would disagree that it's all down to Bendis from here on. There are plenty of other writers who made better use of Secret Invasion for their own tie-ins (Abnett and Lanning on Nova, Paul Cornell on Captain Britain, Gage on Thunderbolts, Mike Carey on SI:X-Men) and there will be plenty others who make good use of the principles Dark Reign will set up.

It's beginning to feel like you're just mad at Bendis and won't be swayed no matter what, here.

...in depth? Thought out?

Gimmie your copy of Secret Invasion! 'Cause I didn't read that anywhere else.

They're zealots, but we're never really given an explanation of why they believe that earth inparticular is theirs. The skrulls invented some uber shapeshifting that allows them to avoid detection, but we're never shown what it is. The skrulls have supposed to have infiltrated everything, but the effect of that is to just screw up Stark tech. Nick Fury's ulitmate defense against the skrulls is...a bunch of rookies who don't contribute much to the final fight.

No, sorry. Secret Invasion was Bendis' baby. And he dropped the ball despite having the mini itself, plus New Avengers and Mighty Avengers to flesh it out with.

He might do a little better, since Secret Invasion seems to have been soleoy for setting up Dark Reign, but I doubt it. Bendis has never shown himself to skillful when it comes to endings.

And can all the people trying to psycho-analyze get over themselves, please? Ye Gods, this is comics, not politics.

[Cthulhudrew]

Heck before Thunderbolts even Zemo was considered to be a bit of a joke. But the book built him up into a credible character. It the title's nature. And as long as there's a good writer behind it even the most obscure characters can be fascinating.

In fairness, I think the Siege of Avengers Mansion storyline by Stern is what really put Zemo on the map back in the day, and then Gruenwald used him to good purpose in the Bloodstone Hunt arc in Captain America, but he was definitely kind of languishing in Limbo until Kurt put him on the TBolts and back on the map.

Even Kurt seemed to just want to keep him villainous, though (despite some early suggestions IMO that he might become something more), and then Fabian came along and really breathed dimension into him.

[chaosakita]

I was just getting used to the old cast.

[Monty_Cristo]

I was just getting used to the old cast.

then you should read Dark Avengers.

anyways, i'm very happy with where the Marvel Universe is, at the moment. it's complete chaos. this has all sorts of story potential. the heroes can get back to working outside of the law. it's a win win. i'm not sure what the rest of you are b*tchin about.

In fairness, I think the Siege of Avengers Mansion storyline by Stern is what really put Zemo on the map back in the day, and then Gruenwald used him to good purpose in the Bloodstone Hunt arc in Captain America, but he was definitely kind of languishing in Limbo until Kurt put him on the TBolts and back on the map.

Even Kurt seemed to just want to keep him villainous, though (despite some early suggestions IMO that he might become something more), and then Fabian came along and really breathed dimension into him.

heck, Zemo himself admitted that he had been a loser for most of his career. it was hitting rock bottom that triggered his rebirth/gave him the Thunderbolts idea. this book is about making jobbers into faces. Ellis' Bolts were fun but the name of the game is change. i, for one, welcome Diggle. i'm excited for where he's taking things.

[Monty_Cristo]

...in depth? Thought out?

Gimmie your copy of Secret Invasion! 'Cause I didn't read that anywhere else.

They're zealots, but we're never really given an explanation of why they believe that earth inparticular is theirs. The skrulls invented some uber shapeshifting that allows them to avoid detection, but we're never shown what it is. The skrulls have supposed to have infiltrated everything, but the effect of that is to just screw up Stark tech. Nick Fury's ulitmate defense against the skrulls is...a bunch of rookies who don't contribute much to the final fight.

No, sorry. Secret Invasion was Bendis' baby. And he dropped the ball despite having the mini itself, plus New Avengers and Mighty Avengers to flesh it out with.

He might do a little better, since Secret Invasion seems to have been soleoy for setting up Dark Reign, but I doubt it. Bendis has never shown himself to skillful when it comes to endings.

And can all the people trying to psycho-analyze get over themselves, please? Ye Gods, this is comics, not politics.

this has nothing to do with the cast of Thunderbolts. stop derailing the thread.

I thought it was back because Superboy made him lose all his hair? Didn't they revert back to a Silver Age Luthor?


Like I said, every couple of years they totally reboot Luthor. When Byrne was doing him, it's because he had to be the biggest man in town. Then he was a hairy Australian for a bit. You're retconning retcons.

DC sucks.

[Monty_Cristo]

Hmm, all the 'good comics' jokes aside...

Because the plot relies on Bendis for it to be worth while. Look at how he botched his own heavily foreshadowed plot with Secret Invasion. It's not convincing in it's foreshadowing, it's execution is only mildly interesting and the pay off will be terrible. That enough?

no because i have no intentions of reading anything Bendis is writing. take him out of the equation and i still have a bad@ss Deadpool/T-bolts crossover to read about.

---
anyways, does anyone else think that this team might have to go fugitive at some point? Norman isn't known for keeping his word. and these new t-bolts are just as much of a liability as Deadpool, i would think.

[StoneGold]

this has nothing to do with the cast of Thunderbolts. stop derailing the thread.



DC sucks.

I'm not even saying that. But what makes Lex Luthor is that he's Lex Luthor. He's more an icon than a great character.

What makes Norm a great character? Honestly, it's not historic. It's mostly due to two recent stories - Millar's MK Spidey run and Ellis' Tbolts. He's a ruthless corporate sociopath with an off the wall psychopath lurking just beneath the surface. It's like smooshing Batman and the Joker into one character.

And yes, it's a relatively recent development, but screw it, it's an awesome character.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm not even saying that. But what makes Lex Luthor is that he's Lex Luthor. He's more an icon than a great character.

What makes Norm a great character? Honestly, it's not historic. It's mostly due to two recent stories - Millar's MK Spidey run and Ellis' Tbolts. He's a ruthless corporate sociopath with an off the wall psychopath lurking just beneath the surface. It's like smooshing Batman and the Joker into one character.

And yes, it's a relatively recent development, but screw it, it's an awesome character.

The difference is that Joker can use his insanity to his advantage and, in the hands of the right writer, has a style. Goblin's insanity works against him, and comes out as plain ol' rage.

[Joe Franklin]

Marvel can write Norman as the greatest World leader of all time if they want to.

Every Marvel comic book character is subject only to the writer's scripts, and the artist's pencil.

[The Cool Thatguy]

this has nothing to do with the cast of Thunderbolts. stop derailing the thread.

I was fully explaining why I don't care to wait to see Norman explode under Bendis, which has everything to do with the thread and Thunderbolts, actually.

[Monty_Cristo]

I was fully explaining why I don't care to wait to see Norman explode under Bendis, which has everything to do with the thread and Thunderbolts, actually.

actually you didn't explain that. why don't you care to wait and see Norman explode under Bendis who is in no way connected to the Thunderbolts title you claimed to be talking about?

[Venom Melendez]

What about when Doom loses to Pete? Or to Dazzler, Luke Cage, I think he lost to Rage once, the Punisher... Doom's got a pretty big loss record. Against teams and individuals. And yeah, you can chalk a lot of those up to Doombots, but then man, Doom makes some crappy robots to pretend to be him. I'm not sure that's much better.


But he's the greatest villain because that's the perception of him.

And just to something you said before, he really hasn't fought the Avengers that often. I need to check, but I think he's been involved with the X-Men more.

Or like when Doom lost to Squirrel Girl.

That wasn't a Doombot.

[The Cool Thatguy]

actually you didn't explain that. why don't you care to wait and see Norman explode under Bendis who is in no way connected to the Thunderbolts title you claimed to be talking about?

Because Bendis is at the helm. As I stated.

Norman's bat-sh*t insane, wants power for power's sake, and is as smooth as a piece of sand paper. He's a pitbull in a nice suit. I honestly don't see the appeal.

[Monty_Cristo]

Because Bendis is at the helm. As I stated.

Norman's bat-sh*t insane, wants power for power's sake, and is as smooth as a piece of sand paper. He's a pitbull in a nice suit. I honestly don't see the appeal.

Diggle already told you how he sees Osborn. he already explained what the appeal is. not his fault that you weren't paying attention or don't agree. you could always focus on what you think you might like about the series. otherwise, why post? i didn't post in the Guardians of the Galaxy thread because the Guardians don't interest me.

[Joe Franklin]

Norman's bat-sh*t insane, wants power for power's sake, and is as smooth as a piece of sand paper. He's a pitbull in a nice suit. I honestly don't see the appeal.

You just described my favorite kind of comic book character. But I'm a huge Sabretooth fan, so what do I know anyway?

[Monty_Cristo]

You just described my favorite kind of comic book character. But I'm a huge Sabretooth fan, so what do I know anyway?

it's a damn shame that Vic is dead. you know for damn certain he'd be a t-bolt.

[jdwrocks]

Because Bendis is at the helm. As I stated.

Norman's bat-sh*t insane, wants power for power's sake, and is as smooth as a piece of sand paper. He's a pitbull in a nice suit. I honestly don't see the appeal.
For me, it isn't about the appeal in Norman, it's the anticipation I feel, waiting for his psycho side to drag him down, whether it's slow or fast decline. I like the fact that he's got all this power cuz I wanna see how he handles it, or more likely how he doesn't handle it. It's the classic rise & fall premise, except this time it's a psycho scum-bag. I wanna see him get his comeuppance. And for that to happen the crazy motherf*cker has got to be on top. The higher they are the harder they fall. And I wanna see crazy Norm fall hard.

Now whether this happens in 6 months or 2-3 years, who knows. Personally I hope it's either the ex-Tbolts like Rad-Man & Songbird & Robbie that bring him down. If not them then Stark would be a fitting character. But whoever it is, the reason I'm excited about this is my desire to see Norm get f*cked over in the worst way.

I don't give a crap who or what Osborne was about in the past. I could care less about the tangles he & Spider-man had. It's about who Norm is today

[Monty_Cristo]

i wonder what would happen if Norman succeeded in killing the president. who is the VP in the marvel universe?

[jdwrocks]

i wonder what would happen if Norman succeeded in killing the president. who is the VP in the marvel universe?
I don't believe Marvel would dare kill Obama. Hell they'd probably have secret service agents at their door in 24 hours.

[Joe Franklin]

it's a damn shame that Vic is dead. you know for damn certain he'd be a t-bolt.

Creed would be perfect for Diggle's T-Bolts roster.

Maybe one of the Sabretooth clones that Mr. Sinister made in X-Force can join?:biggrin:

[Monty_Cristo]

I don't believe Marvel would dare kill Obama. Hell they'd probably have secret service agents at their door in 24 hours.

well they are getting away with injecting him with something. but who knows? Obama is a comic fan.

Creed would be perfect for Diggle's T-Bolts roster.

Maybe one of the Sabretooth clones that Mr. Sinister made in X-Force can join?:biggrin:

they'd probably use Wild Child before that.

[StoneGold]

The difference is that Joker can use his insanity to his advantage and, in the hands of the right writer, has a style. Goblin's insanity works against him, and comes out as plain ol' rage.

Warren Ellis says you're wrong.

[Monty_Cristo]

you know what i'm most looking forward to (even if it doesn't happen)? the interview scenes. remember the first issue of Ellis' tbolts where Norman basically interviews his new team? it was a lot of fun reading that and seeing the interaction between the villains. i hope there are a few short scenes of Osborn recruiting these folks. from the preview it looks like they start right in with their secret mission. so i'm hoping for some flashbacks. like wtf was Norman thinking when he hired Ant-Man? the guy looks like Iron Spider-man with antennae.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Warren Ellis says you're wrong.

When did he say that? When Norman had delusions of his Goblin mask? Perhaps when Norman kept referring to Steel Spider as Spider-Man? Or when Norman went over the edge and started killing his people at the behest of telepaths who were dismantling the team?

Ellis was the one who expounded in the first two arc's the Thunderbolts ineffectiveness. When Norman assumed his Goblin gear, he was doing the dumbest thing possible. This was emphasized before, during and after.

[Joe Franklin]

they'd probably use Wild Child before that.

This would be cool as well.

But a clone of Sabretooth would be very expendable, and an easy kill off explination if Diggle wanted to do so.

[StoneGold]

When did he say that? When Norman had delusions of his Goblin mask? Perhaps when Norman kept referring to Steel Spider as Spider-Man? Or when Norman went over the edge and started killing his people at the behest of telepaths who were dismantling the team?

Ellis was the one who expounded in the first two arc's the Thunderbolts ineffectiveness. When Norman assumed his Goblin gear, he was doing the dumbest thing possible. This was emphasized before, during and after.

When Norman put on the mask and got stuff done. Before the mask, teeps raising hell. Afterwards, no more problem with the teeps.

[The Cool Thatguy]

When Norman put on the mask and got stuff done. Before the mask, teeps raising hell. Afterwards, no more problem with the teeps.

That's because 1) they forgot Bullseye and 2) one of them at least forgot that he was a powerful telekinetic who could split apart bullets in mid air.

Norman putting on the mask again enabled Songbird and Samson to put a leash on him. Norman mighta had a few good lines, but he was still a loser under Ellis.

[Monty_Cristo]

This would be cool as well.

But a clone of Sabretooth would be very expendable, and an easy kill off explination if Diggle wanted to do so.

i wouldn't want that. it'd be too obvious who was going to bite it. i think they should just have the real Sabretooth return. there has to be an out. maybe Lady Deathstrike could wish him back to life, to spite Logan (Madelyne Pryor did offer it).

[jdwrocks]

i wouldn't want that. it'd be too obvious who was going to bite it. i think they should just have the real Sabretooth return. there has to be an out. maybe Lady Deathstrike could wish him back to life, to spite Logan (Madelyne Pryor did offer it).
Now we are getting off thread again, but I suppose Blackheart could bring him around...even though IMO Sabertooth sucks!:evilsmile:

[Joe Franklin]

even though IMO Sabertooth sucks!:evilsmile:

We only wish Creed were cooler then Radioactive man.

Why is Sabretooth in 2 Marvel movies, while Radioactive Man should be instead?

Radioactive Man's tyvec suit makes him a perfect Marvel movie star.:biggrin:

[Monty_Cristo]

i really hope that the team gets to hunt down Ms. Marvel or Iron Man, at some point. the interview did say that they were recruited to handle Norman's enemies. i wonder how long it will be before they go after Spider-man.

[jdwrocks]

i really hope that the team gets to hunt down Ms. Marvel or Iron Man, at some point. the interview did say that they were recruited to handle Norman's enemies. i wonder how long it will be before they go after Spider-man.
I could see going after Stark, although the Dark Avengers might go after him in the name of bringing him in to account for the invasion & his failure in preventing it. Now as to what shape Stark is if or when they bring him in...

[is it just me]

It seems as though a winning Thunderbolts formula has been stripped down of its best parts to expand the Avengers line.That might not have been so bad if they had replaced the outgoing team with some decent team rather than a total z list mercs for hire roster.

[Monty_Cristo]

It seems as though a winning Thunderbolts formula has been stripped down of its best parts to expand the Avengers line.That might not have been so bad if they had replaced the outgoing team with some decent team rather than a total z list mercs for hire roster.

yeah, it seems that way. except you're completely wrong.

[Monty_Cristo]

I could see going after Stark, although the Dark Avengers might go after him in the name of bringing him in to account for the invasion & his failure in preventing it. Now as to what shape Stark is if or when they bring him in...

well i doubt the T-bolts could take him. but i could see them hunting Tony down and softening him up so the Dark Avengers can take him out publically. maria Hill and Pepper would probably get the worst of it.

[is it just me]

I could see going after Stark, although the Dark Avengers might go after him in the name of bringing him in to account for the invasion & his failure in preventing it. Now as to what shape Stark is if or when they bring him in...
Why not turn the whole Thunderbolts formula on its head and have a team of former heroes or characters who were seen as anti heroes who have been seen to cross the line and are now viewed as the bad guys

[jdwrocks]

It seems as though a winning Thunderbolts formula has been stripped down of its best parts to expand the Avengers line.That might not have been so bad if they had replaced the outgoing team with some decent team rather than a total z list mercs for hire roster.
I think that's the point of it. There is no Thunderbolts, at least on record. They are a black-ops team now. Who better than mercs, who's loyalty you can buy with cold hard cash. People like Paladin have done this stuff for years, as long as he gets paid he'll complete the job.

[Monty_Cristo]

Why not turn the whole Thunderbolts formula on its head and have a team of former heroes or characters who were seen as anti heroes who have been seen to cross the line and are now viewed as the bad guys

you haven't even read one issue with the new team in it. what makes you think you know where this is headed?

[is it just me]

yeah, it seems that way. except you're completely wrong.
Ant Man aside who i think is a fantastic character i dont think the roster that has been named is strong enough to keep people interested no matter how well its written.I really hope im wrong as well because Thunderbolts is one of my favorite reads.

[Monty_Cristo]

Ant Man aside who i think is a fantastic character i dont think the roster that has been named is strong enough to keep people interested no matter how well its written.I really hope im wrong as well because Thunderbolts is one of my favorite reads.

well we'll see what the Deadpool crossover does for it.

[Joe Franklin]

Ant Man aside who i think is a fantastic character i dont think the roster that has been named is strong enough to keep people interested no matter how well its written.I really hope im wrong as well because Thunderbolts is one of my favorite reads.

Neither was the Nicieza Thunderbolts roster. Abe, Melissa, Eric, Chen, james, etc.... had craptacular sales figures(I liked it though), and When Ellis brought in Venom, Bullseye, and Norman, the sales were a little better. I loved the Nicieza T-Bolts, but the characters hardly sold great. Diggle's characters are just as obscure as the Nicieza characters. No difference.

[jdwrocks]

Neither was the Nicieza Thunderbolts roster. Abe, Melissa, Eric, Chen, james, etc.... had craptacular sales figures(I liked it though), and When Ellis brought in Venom, Bullseye, and Norman, the sales were a little better. I loved the Nicieza T-Bolts, but the characters hardly sold great. Diggle's characters are just as obscure as the Nicieza characters. No difference.
And I would rather read about characters I don't know that much about. Anything to give obscure or lesser known people a chance to shine is a thumbs-up for me, as long it's written decently. But I have little doubt Diggle is up to the task.

[Jadeskies]

It cant possibly do as badly as 'Fight Club Thunderbolts'. If you dont know what that means conscider yourself fortunate, do not investigate the comic-that-should-not-be-read! Beware for your soul!

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Neither was the Nicieza Thunderbolts roster. Abe, Melissa, Eric, Chen, james, etc.... had craptacular sales figures(I liked it though), and When Ellis brought in Venom, Bullseye, and Norman, the sales were a little better. I loved the Nicieza T-Bolts, but the characters hardly sold great. Diggle's characters are just as obscure as the Nicieza characters. No difference.

Exactly. Remember that in 1997 (the first Thunderbolts line-up) the cast consisted of:

Baron Zemo
The Beetle
The Fixer
Screaming Mimi
Goliath
Moonstone

These weren't A-List. Frankly they were pushing it at C-List even with the better known characters. It was an outstanding series, but driven forward by a totally obscure cast. I honestly don't think that Diggle's choices are any worse than those, and it'll be up to him to build up the cast into a set we're interested in. I trust him to be more than capable of doing that.

[Dimoutzi]

Exactly. Remember that in 1997 (the first Thunderbolts line-up) the cast consisted of:

Baron Zemo
The Beetle
The Fixer
Screaming Mimi
Goliath
Moonstone

These weren't A-List.

In comics it all comes down on wether you can relate to a character somehow. In the original 12 issues of Thunderbolts they were criminals, but they were doing heroic things and it eventually became obvious that sooner or later some of them would become true heroes (Melissa, Abe, Atlas), that gave you sympathy for those characters and kept you interested in them.

In Diggle's Thunderbolts we have a group of Villains, just like the original Thunderbolts. But this time its a black-ops team. These new thunderbolts aren't going to perform any heroic acts, they are going on missions like "assasinating the president". This will take away any sympathy the casual comic book fan might have for these characters, unless Diggle comes up with some big surprises to compensate for it.

But either way, you cant compare the new Thunderbolts to the original ones, just because both teams exist off C/D-list villains.

[rogerio]

I think that's the point of it. There is no Thunderbolts, at least on record. They are a black-ops team now. Who better than mercs, who's loyalty you can buy with cold hard cash. People like Paladin have done this stuff for years, as long as he gets paid he'll complete the job.
I couldn't agree more.
IThe Thunderbolts' line-up was hand-picked by Andy Diggle for the Dark Reing.
:smile:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Maybe the smart thing would be to hire John Ostrander and let him do the Marvel version of Sucide Squad right. Thats my 2 cents. And I was gonna hop aboard the Thunderbolts series , but after seeing who is there...nope.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Maybe the smart thing would be to hire John Ostrander and let him do the Marvel version of Sucide Squad right. Thats my 2 cents. And I was gonna hop aboard the Thunderbolts series , but after seeing who is there...nope.

Lotta writers try to emulate his Suicide Squad, but none of them seem to remember that guys like Nemesis and Rick Flag were long standing members.

[StoneGold]

It helps that you've still got Norm, it's still basically the same direction as the Tbolts book was, more or less, and you've got a pretty big marketing push behind it. This isn't exactly The Order.

[Ryan W]

Hmm, so I wonder how Yelena put herself back together after having her body blown to bits? Maybe we'll see her with the enhanced Super Adaptoid abilities in this book and not just basic Black Widow skills. Not that I'd mind either, really. She's a great character.

And wow, the art makes The Headsman look goddam scary.

[rogerio]

Hmm, so I wonder how Yelena put herself back together after having her body blown to bits? Maybe we'll see her with the enhanced Super Adaptoid abilities in this book and not just basic Black Widow skills. Not that I'd mind either, really. She's a great character.

That Super Adaptoid thing was a Skrull...:biggrin:

[Joe Franklin]

In comics it all comes down on wether you can relate to a character somehow. In the original 12 issues of Thunderbolts they were criminals, but they were doing heroic things and it eventually became obvious that sooner or later some of them would become true heroes (Melissa, Abe, Atlas), that gave you sympathy for those characters and kept you interested in them.


According to the T-Bolts sales figures, this villain/hero novelty died out a few years ago.

Andy Diggle may as well try something different. Can't hurt the sales any worse.

[Monty_Cristo]

In comics it all comes down on wether you can relate to a character somehow. In the original 12 issues of Thunderbolts they were criminals, but they were doing heroic things and it eventually became obvious that sooner or later some of them would become true heroes (Melissa, Abe, Atlas), that gave you sympathy for those characters and kept you interested in them.

In Diggle's Thunderbolts we have a group of Villains, just like the original Thunderbolts. But this time its a black-ops team. These new thunderbolts aren't going to perform any heroic acts, they are going on missions like "assasinating the president". This will take away any sympathy the casual comic book fan might have for these characters, unless Diggle comes up with some big surprises to compensate for it.

well you already know that the President won't be assassinated. these individuals were hired to put a scare into him. my bet is that they attack the President to show him that he's vulnerable and in need of H.A.M.M.E.R. Osborn's not a complete idiot. this is old fashioned terrorism. and let's face it. you don't have a crystal ball. you haven't read 1 issue w/ this new team in it. and you don't know what direction the book will take or how relatable the characters will be. Diggle picked blank slates for a reason. and those who aren't so 'blank' have very strong personalities i.e. Ghost being a anti-corporate paranoid & Paladin being marvel's version of Han Solo. this stuff sounds fun to me. i don't know what's wrong w/ the rest of you.

[The Cool Thatguy]

well you already know that the President won't be assassinated. these individuals were hired to put a scare into him. my bet is that they attack the President to show him that he's vulnerable and in need of H.A.M.M.E.R. Osborn's not a complete idiot. this is old fashioned terrorism. and let's face it. you don't have a crystal ball. you haven't read 1 issue w/ this new team in it. and you don't know what direction the book will take or how relatable the characters will be. Diggle picked blank slates for a reason. and those who aren't so 'blank' have very strong personalities i.e. Ghost being a anti-corporate paranoid & Paladin being marvel's version of Han Solo. this stuff sounds fun to me. i don't know what's wrong w/ the rest of you.

I always wondered what writers would do after Bush finally left office, how they'd try to keep their anti-government tone.

[mikekerr3]

I always wondered what writers would do after Bush finally left office, how they'd try to keep their anti-government tone.

They have had a anti-goverment, normal people are stupid bigots tone since Johnson was president.

[The Cool Thatguy]

They have had a anti-goverment, normal people are stupid bigots tone since Johnson was president.

True, but not to the extent that someone like Norman could operate openly.

[mikekerr3]

True, but not to the extent that someone like Norman could operate openly.


Since the MRA was passed the MU goverment has beebn blatently evil, the SHRA, as it is described in the books points that out. Agents of the goverment like Lazar, Hill, Gyrich and Cooper reinforce that very strongly.

[Joe Franklin]

Another Diggle T-Bolts interview.
http://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.6449.Dark_Reign-Makers~colon~_Andy_Diggle

[The Cool Thatguy]

Since the MRA was passed the MU goverment has beebn blatently evil, the SHRA, as it is described in the books points that out. Agents of the goverment like Lazar, Hill, Gyrich and Cooper reinforce that very strongly.

The Mutant Registration Act was a half hearted plot that barely went anywhere, despite the natural implications. Hell, IIRC the thing was struck down in a Captain America comic, for pete's sake!

Minus Gyrich, all the people you name were created during the Bush years. As for Henry, he was always depicted as a man who abused his power.

A better example. Compare the amount and tone of anti-government stories during the Clinton years to that of the Bush years. Personally, I can't recall a single crossover that was a metaphor for Clinton policies ;)

And to clarify, Sentinel programs don't really count. They're a requirement of the mutant genre in an ongoing story telling medium.

[areacode212]

To think that a couple of years ago (or whenever that NA Annual came out), I was cursing Bendis's name for killing off Yelena Belova in the stupidest way possible (and hardly anyone caring), and now she's heading up the Thunderbolts and being written by the guy who wrote The Losers....ah, life is good.

[rogerio]

To think that a couple of years ago (or whenever that NA Annual came out), I was cursing Bendis's name for killing off Yelena Belova in the stupidest way possible (and hardly anyone caring), and now she's heading up the Thunderbolts and being written by the guy who wrote The Losers....ah, life is good.
Tell me about it!
The Black Widows are my favorite female characters and I am very happy to see Yelena Belova in good shape again. (Superadaptoid my #$%@:mad: )
Thanks Mr. Diggle.:smile:

[TheComet]

The Mutant Registration Act was a half hearted plot that barely went anywhere, despite the natural implications. Hell, IIRC the thing was struck down in a Captain America comic, for pete's sake!


That's what happened with that stupid plot. I just thought it was totally forgotten about in the chaos of the X-Men in the 90s. I might have to track that down just to see it be resolved.

[Monty_Cristo]

Tell me about it!
The Black Widows are my favorite female characters and I am very happy to see Yelena Belova in good shape again. (Superadaptoid my #$%@:mad: )
Thanks Mr. Diggle.:smile:

you must be excited for her to finally be in a leadership position. she's kind of got an inferiority complex since playing second fiddle to Natasha for so long. i think Norman's playing off of that; giving Yelena her own "avengers" team. i wonder if these folks will ever get a shot at the New Avengers team (& Natasha's new boyfriend).

Captain America vs Paladin
Spider-woman vs Ant-Man
Luke Cage vs Headsman
Ms. Marvel vs Ghost
Wolverine vs Mister X
Spider-man vs Green Goblin
Ronin vs Hockey Mask Guy
Mockingbird vs Black Widow

[jdwrocks]

you must be excited for her to finally be in a leadership position. she's kind of got an inferiority complex since playing second fiddle to Natasha for so long. i think Norman's playing off of that; giving Yelena her own "avengers" team. i wonder if these folks will ever get a shot at the New Avengers team (& Natasha's new boyfriend).

Captain America vs Paladin
Spider-woman vs Ant-Man
Luke Cage vs Headsman
Ms. Marvel vs Ghost
Wolverine vs Mister X
Spider-man vs Green Goblin
Ronin vs Hockey Mask Guy
Mockingbird vs Black Widow
Spider-woman vs. Ant-man, hmm... would we hear the "sweater muffins" remark made to the real Jessica Drew?:tongue:

[rogerio]

you must be excited for her to finally be in a leadership position. she's kind of got an inferiority complex since playing second fiddle to Natasha for so long. i think Norman's playing off of that; giving Yelena her own "avengers" team.

agreed.

Andy Diggle's words: Yelena's worked for the K.G.B., S.H.I.E.L.D., HYDRA and even Blade's vigilante group Vanguard. Norman describes her as "a warrior without a war."
He's finally able to give her the raison d'etre and resources she was always trained for but never fully attained before, and that leadership role appeals to her ego. But she's also hiding some has dark secrets of her own. Unfinished business...

I Wonder what Andy Diggle is thinking...maybe a Yelena/Natalia show-down?:confused:

[Monty_Cristo]

agreed.

Andy Diggle's words: Yelena's worked for the K.G.B., S.H.I.E.L.D., HYDRA and even Blade's vigilante group Vanguard. Norman describes her as "a warrior without a war."
He's finally able to give her the raison d'etre and resources she was always trained for but never fully attained before, and that leadership role appeals to her ego. But she's also hiding some has dark secrets of her own. Unfinished business...

I Wonder what Andy Diggle is thinking...maybe a Yelena/Natalia show-down?:confused:

could be that. could be her being hunted by that Vanguard guy. could be her really being the super-adaptoid. *shrugs*

Spider-woman vs. Ant-man, hmm... would we hear the "sweater muffins" remark made to the real Jessica Drew?:tongue:

i imagine that most of his remarks would have to be blurred or edited out to spare the children. :tongue:

[vitruvian]

When Norman put on the mask and got stuff done. Before the mask, teeps raising hell. Afterwards, no more problem with the teeps.

Got stuff done? He killed a bunch of his own staff, and got caught on surveillance cameras. Heckuva job, Normie.

[StoneGold]

Got stuff done? He killed a bunch of his own staff, and got caught on surveillance cameras. Heckuva job, Normie.

Well, technically no. The Green Goblin did. And how many of them have there been? Six? Seven?

Holy crap, I just realized, I think the only reason Phil Urich is alive it to provide Norm with an eventual alibi.

[vitruvian]

Well, technically no. The Green Goblin did. And how many of them have there been? Six? Seven?

Holy crap, I just realized, I think the only reason Phil Urich is alive it to provide Norm with an eventual alibi.

Okay, you think Phil Urich was at Thunderbolts Mountain that day? Anybody else, other than Norman, that's ever put on the suit.

Never mind. The cameras caught him with mask both on and off.

[StoneGold]

Okay, you think Phil Urich was at Thunderbolts Mountain that day? Anybody else, other than Norman, that's ever put on the suit.

Never mind. The cameras caught him with mask both on and off.

No, because I'm the omniscient reader. The point is, who says Norm was the Goblin more than once? We know there's been multiple Goblins. And there were Goblins running around when Norm was dead/in Europe/whatever they're saying he was. So where is the proof that the Goblin was Norm more than that one time? And who is to say that he wasn't being set up by his enemies that one time?


Now realize, I'm just playing the same game Norm himself would be playing. Obviously he's the Green Goblin. I'm just saying, it's not hard to talk his way out of. Not with all the various metahuman fakes there have been over the years. That's the whole point of wearing a mask. Didn't you read that issue of Daredevil, or the similar Spider-Man issue?

[Monty_Cristo]

anyways. on Twitter, Diggle is currently writing the fight between Ant-Man and Deadpool. sounds fun.

[CyberHubbs]

anyways. on Twitter, Diggle is currently writing the fight between Ant-Man and Deadpool. sounds fun.

Which one gets the first player controller?

[Monty_Cristo]

Which one gets the first player controller?

i really do hope that it descends into some kind of videogame showdown. Eric's way out of his depth here. hopefully he's smart enough to use humor (or Taskmaster stories) to keep Deadpool distracted.

[kcekada]

I'm less interested after reading that.

There's absolutely no one in that group to root for.


Yeah, with both Moonstone and Songbird gone, there's no one left that interests me. The next issue may very well be my last.

[Monty_Cristo]

Yeah, with both Moonstone and Songbird gone, there's no one left that interests me. The next issue may very well be my last.

and what about those two interests you? do you read any books that don't have these two as part of the cast? i'm calling your bluff.

[The Cool Thatguy]

and what about those two interests you? do you read any books that don't have these two as part of the cast? i'm calling your bluff.

Wow, that statement in and of itself is almost enough to kill the brain cells of anyone who reads it.

Change a book's central concept, expel two long term members and you're surprised that former fans wouldn't want to read it? Okay...

[Michael Painter]

I'm thinking that this actually has to do with the effect with either that a) Moonstone and Songbird were the only original Thunderbolts left on the book, and b) the two are the only females in the group. On this new team, other than Yelena Belova, it seems to be a very male centric and hyper-masculinized team.

[Monty_Cristo]

Wow, that statement in and of itself is almost enough to kill the brain cells of anyone who reads it.

Change a book's central concept, expel two long term members and you're surprised that former fans wouldn't want to read it? Okay...

if you were reading ellis' bolts, then you shouldn't be surprised at a change in concept and the loss of members. Zemo was essential to the first lineup but was absent for a long time. they went from pretending to be heroes, to becoming fugitives, to becoming proactive heroes. but if your brain cells are dead, i can understand how you missed all of that.


pt 1 Songbird will still be in the book i.e. read an interview or 2

pt 2 Diggle understands the core concepts and is mixing them in

pt 3 the characters picked for the new lineup have many similarities to past members - you just have to be well-read to see it (ghost is a reclusive tech whiz ala Techno - ant-man's a misguided armor wearing coward who enjoys the trappings of heroism ala Mach-1 - Paladin's a former mercenary w/ loyalty issues a la Atlas - Black Widow is directionless & looking for a cause like Songbird was originally (& it was the other Black Widow who gave her a direction, if you'll recall) w/ a touch of Karla's ambition

[Monty_Cristo]

I'm thinking that this actually has to do with the effect with either that a) Moonstone and Songbird were the only original Thunderbolts left on the book, and b) the two are the only females in the group. On this new team, other than Yelena Belova, it seems to be a very male centric and hyper-masculinized team.

with a revolving cast and a female leader. does having 2 females make it female-centric? i thought both characters were treated poorly in Ellis' run. Karla was a stupid petty tramp. Songbird was a step down from where she was just prior to the Ellis bolts. she simply rolled over and let Norman tell her what's what. the Dark Avengers have one female, as well. where's the criticism? how about Mighty Avengers? they have a robotic female. jailbait. and a crazy female. who's the role model?

[The Cool Thatguy]

if you were reading ellis' bolts, then you shouldn't be surprised at a change in concept and the loss of members. Zemo was essential to the first lineup but was absent for a long time. they went from pretending to be heroes, to becoming fugitives, to becoming proactive heroes. but if your brain cells are dead, i can understand how you missed all of that.


pt 1 Songbird will still be in the book i.e. read an interview or 2

pt 2 Diggle understands the core concepts and is mixing them in

pt 3 the characters picked for the new lineup have many similarities to past members - you just have to be well-read to see it (ghost is a reclusive tech whiz ala Techno - ant-man's a misguided armor wearing coward who enjoys the trappings of heroism ala Mach-1 - Paladin's a former mercenary w/ loyalty issues a la Atlas - Black Widow is directionless & looking for a cause like Songbird was originally (& it was the other Black Widow who gave her a direction, if you'll recall) w/ a touch of Karla's ambition

Yes, a secret black ops groups of villains being villains is just like the first Thunderbolt series, where villains pretended to be heroes! :rolleyes:

I ain't the one lacking brain cells here. With just Songbird playing a minor role, likely that of a spoiler with missions, this series is holding onto it's core concept by a thread. The Ghost is nothing like Fixer (Ghost is an idealogical terrorist. Fixer only cares about money), Ant-Man is nothing like Mach-1 (Abe built his own armor, was never a coward and only sought respect), and Paladin is nothing like Atlas (Atlas seeks out orders. Paladin is loyal to himself and money).

The closest comparison you could make between the two is that both Black Widow 2 and Songbird once defined themselves by their relationship with others, but that's reaching. Mel was always passive, lacking in self confidence. When Mel reached Widow 2's normal level of confidence, it was after a long and heavy road. Widow 2 is uber confident and needs to climb just one last peak to reach her desired location. She only needs Widow 1 to define her, and just barely at that. Mel needed a man to define her and a leader to tell her what to think.

[Monty_Cristo]

Yes, a secret black ops groups of villains being villains is just like the first Thunderbolt series, where villains pretended to be heroes! :rolleyes:

The Redeemers were a black ops group. the Thunderbolts were unofficially in league with the CSA (and Hydra at one point), as well. what do you call that? and, hell, the only difference between now and a few months back is that Norman's in charge and not having his team play to the cameras. they were still held prisoner in T-bolts mountain and treated like a black ops team. they just made occassional public appearances as part of the Initiative. and how much you want to bet that this attack on the president isn't a media ploy to make Osborn seem more important? this is classic T-bolts stuff or do i need to remind you of the conversations between Helmut & Karla?


I ain't the one lacking brain cells here. With just Songbird playing a minor role, likely that of a spoiler with missions,

that doesn't sound minor to me. it'd be a definite change up from her just being in the background during ellis' run. she was, literally, there to remind you of what the Thunderbolts used to be. Moonstone had long since given up on redemption.

The Ghost is nothing like Fixer (Ghost is an idealogical terrorist. Fixer only cares about money),

you're so off. Norbert cares about a challenge. he's made it clear on a number of occassions. Ghost easily qualifies as Norbert's quirky cousin. and, like Norbert, it sounds like he's let his tech slowly take over his life; or don't you remember Norbert being a robot? and, like the Ghost, Fixer was an extreme loner. i also see some of Norbert in Paladin. they are both self-centered professionals who are often horndogs. you just have to use your imagination.

Ant-Man is nothing like Mach-1 (Abe built his own armor, was never a coward and only sought respect),

i have all of Beetle's appearances. he was always the first to run and hide from a fight. he routinely stabbed people in the back; sometimes unintentionally (just like Eric). he robbed a few criminals in the first run of Tbolts. and you need to check your facts. Norbert built his armor. Abe was useless for while because his armor was damaged before they entered the Kosmos dimension and he barely knew how to repair it. Abe, like Eric, was a poor underpaid schmuck who found an opportunity to better his own lot in life. he has plenty in common w/ Eric. but i also see a little of Atlas in Eric O'Grady, as well. they both tend to not question authority & disappoint the women in their lives.

and Paladin is nothing like Atlas (Atlas seeks out orders. Paladin is loyal to himself and money).

then switch them around. Paladin's like Fixer mixed w/ Speed Demon. Ant-Man's like Atlas mixed with Blizzard. and Ghost is like Blackheath.


The closest comparison you could make between the two is that both Black Widow 2 and Songbird once defined themselves by their relationship with others, but that's reaching. Mel was always passive, lacking in self confidence.

you seriously need to read the MAX Black Widow series. Yelena started out that way. it was her insecurity (not feeling that she was better than Natasha that drove her.) and she didn't really hit her stride until her instructor died. that's more than enough like Songbird losing Angar the Screamer.

When Mel reached Widow 2's normal level of confidence, it was after a long and heavy road. Widow 2 is uber confident and needs to climb just one last peak to reach her desired location.

why don't you wait and see how it plays out before making that assumption?

She only needs Widow 1 to define her, and just barely at that. Mel needed a man to define her and a leader to tell her what to think.

Norman Osborn is giving Yelena her direction. as of right now, she's a directionless nobody.

[StoneGold]

Paladin is nothing like Atlas (Atlas seeks out orders. Paladin is loyal to himself and money).


Yeah, totally different, they'd have nothing to do with each other!


http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/320866-97702-last-defenders_large.jpg


You know, the book where they were paid to be on the same team together.

[The Shadow]

I'm not too familiar with Diggle... but I might check this out for the new team.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah, totally different, they'd have nothing to do with each other!


http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/320866-97702-last-defenders_large.jpg


You know, the book where they were paid to be on the same team together.

They teamed up, ergo they must be alike?

Man, Wolverine and Spider-Man must have some serious identity issues!

[The Cool Thatguy]

The Redeemers were a black ops group. the Thunderbolts were unofficially in league with the CSA (and Hydra at one point), as well. what do you call that? and, hell, the only difference between now and a few months back is that Norman's in charge and not having his team play to the cameras. they were still held prisoner in T-bolts mountain and treated like a black ops team. they just made occassional public appearances as part of the Initiative. and how much you want to bet that this attack on the president isn't a media ploy to make Osborn seem more important? this is classic T-bolts stuff or do i need to remind you of the conversations between Helmut & Karla?.

lol

The Redeemers were not black ops. They were little more than a special team put together to take down Gyrich.

The Thunderbolts association with Hydra with secret from the main team, done by Abe. The team openly operated against Hydra and ultimately shut them down. Prior to Ellis, the 'Bolts association with the CSA was only in passing and usually were at odds.

So no, their upcoming set-up is nothing like past status qous.

that doesn't sound minor to me. it'd be a definite change up from her just being in the background during ellis' run. she was, literally, there to remind you of what the Thunderbolts used to be. Moonstone had long since given up on redemption..

In the background? Songbird actively undermined Norman, setup Bullseye for a take down, put a stop to Norman's rampage and then blackmailed him into getting field command of the team. What Ellis Thunderbolts were you reading?

The difference here seems to be that instead of a cast character, Songbird is going to be a subplot. That's a major change.

you're so off. Norbert cares about a challenge. he's made it clear on a number of occassions. Ghost easily qualifies as Norbert's quirky cousin. and, like Norbert, it sounds like he's let his tech slowly take over his life; or don't you remember Norbert being a robot? and, like the Ghost, Fixer was an extreme loner. i also see some of Norbert in Paladin. they are both self-centered professionals who are often horndogs. you just have to use your imagination..

Yeah, Fixer cares about a challenge. But Ghost doesn't. They have little to nothing in common, really.

Fixer is by no means a loner. He jumped at the chance to join the Thunderbolts and when he wasn't hanging out with Zemo, he was hanging out with the main team, even when they didn't know it. He's got an odd sense of humor, will run if things look bad and might have some redeeming traits underneath that sleaze.

The Ghost, however, is the freakin' Uniabomber. He cares nothing about challenges, only his ideals. Unlike Fixer, he's willing to put his life on the line to accomplish his mission.

True, both have retreated to their technology, but under vastly different circumstances. Fixer did it to save his life. Ghost is just that paranoid.

i have all of Beetle's appearances. he was always the first to run and hide from a fight. he routinely stabbed people in the back; sometimes unintentionally (just like Eric). he robbed a few criminals in the first run of Tbolts. and you need to check your facts. Norbert built his armor. Abe was useless for while because his armor was damaged before they entered the Kosmos dimension and he barely knew how to repair it. Abe, like Eric, was a poor underpaid schmuck who found an opportunity to better his own lot in life. he has plenty in common w/ Eric. but i also see a little of Atlas in Eric O'Grady, as well. they both tend to not question authority & disappoint the women in their lives..

He was opportunistic, though. He never once ran while on the Thunderbolts and he built his armor alongside Fixer. Abe struggled to keep it operating sure, but it held together for the most part. He can maintain his equipment and understand it far better than Eric can handle his.

And while Beetle might have run every now and then as a villain, it certainly wasn't his first instinct. He held out in fights and commanded more self respect than Eric ever could.

then switch them around. Paladin's like Fixer mixed w/ Speed Demon. Ant-Man's like Atlas mixed with Blizzard. and Ghost is like Blackheath. .

Lord...:rolleyes:

None of them are on the team to improve themselves. That makes them unlike virtually every Thunderbolt.

you seriously need to read the MAX Black Widow series. Yelena started out that way. it was her insecurity (not feeling that she was better than Natasha that drove her.) and she didn't really hit her stride until her instructor died. that's more than enough like Songbird losing Angar the Screamer.

Except that when Angar died, Mel just latched onto Abe. It didn't change her, not really.

And that aside, their dependance issues are very different. Mel depended on the man in her life. Any man. Widow believes that the death of the first will vindicate her abilities.

why don't you wait and see how it plays out before making that assumption?.

What assumption are you talking about? When she was introduced in the Black Widow mini, Widow 2 was highly accomplished and confident. She had to be to fight on Widow 1's level.

Norman Osborn is giving Yelena her direction. as of right now, she's a directionless nobody.

Meh, no more than any other hired gun.

[Jadeskies]

I have to agree with Monty, Thunderbolts is about change, it always has been. Its roster is constantly changing and so its its theme. They could of gone at least 100 issues just with the original thunderbolts constantly hiding thier true identity but in actuality thier disguises got ditched by Zemo in (guessing) like issue 7 to teach the T-bolts a lesson (They were not heroes, they were his lackeys), and leadership has changed back and forth constantly on the team, Zemo - Moonstone - Hawkeye - Zemo - Songbird - Zemo - Norman.

In fact if you dont like the current incarnation just stick with the comic and it will change again, that I can assure you. This isnt the X-men which just seems to float about and you hope that it one day gets good again.

[StoneGold]

They teamed up, ergo they must be alike?

Man, Wolverine and Spider-Man must have some serious identity issues!

They might, if they were both hired as mercenaries to be on a team together.

[Cthulhudrew]

The Ghost is nothing like Fixer (Ghost is an idealogical terrorist. Fixer only cares about money),

???

The Fixer doesn't give much of a crap about money. If all he cared about was money, he could easily counterfeit it. He seeks out challenges to his intellect.

[The Cool Thatguy]

They might, if they were both hired as mercenaries to be on a team together.

Not really. That was the first time Atlas worked as a mercenary and look at the job. He was being hired by a known hero, working for a respectable team (he thought, anyways) and taking down a very evil organization (Sons of the Serpent/comic book KKK members).

In comparison, Paladin attacked Tony Stark without a second thought and rarely undertakes any mission without the promise of money.

???

The Fixer doesn't give much of a crap about money. If all he cared about was money, he could easily counterfeit it. He seeks out challenges to his intellect.

Fixer cares about both. Most of his early career was as a hired gun, and though he wanted to take on the challenge of saving Cable, he did request payment.

Ghost, for his part, doesn't give a damn about money. His second appearance, he proudly boasted about how he'd do his job for free if he could. He hates all corporations and is willing to die to complete his mission. Really, there's little comparison between him and Fixer.

[Monty_Cristo]

Not really. That was the first time Atlas worked as a mercenary and look at the job. He was being hired by a known hero, working for a respectable team (he thought, anyways) and taking down a very evil organization (Sons of the Serpent/comic book KKK members).


wow. flip through a handbook sometime. Josten started out as a mercenary; working for Helmut Zemo's dad.

[Monty_Cristo]

The Redeemers were not black ops. They were little more than a special team put together to take down Gyrich.

tell me you're kidding? how did you write that with a straight face? what do you think a black ops team is? were the public aware of the Redeemers? i almost feel like not answering the rest of your post. you're just being obtuse.


The difference here seems to be that instead of a cast character, Songbird is going to be a subplot. That's a major change.

you haven't read one issue involving the new team. you know nothing.

Yeah, Fixer cares about a challenge. But Ghost doesn't. They have little to nothing in common, really.

only to the ignorant. Ghost cares about a challenge. he takes great pride into being able to break into places. and the bigger the corporation, the bigger the feeling of accomplishment. a hacker, by definition, enjoys a challenge.

Fixer is by no means a loner. He jumped at the chance to join the Thunderbolts and when he wasn't hanging out with Zemo, he was hanging out with the main team, even when they didn't know it. He's got an odd sense of humor, will run if things look bad and might have some redeeming traits underneath that sleaze.

who are his close friends? you call masquerading as Ogre a sign that he's not a loner. why? what connection was making with them? wasn't Ogre, himself, a hermit?

The Ghost, however, is the freakin' Uniabomber. He cares nothing about challenges, only his ideals. Unlike Fixer, he's willing to put his life on the line to accomplish his mission.

that's why i compared him to Plant Man.

True, both have retreated to their technology, but under vastly different circumstances. Fixer did it to save his life. Ghost is just that paranoid.

paranoid? like making sure that your personality is instantly downloaded into a robot if your neck is ever snapped?


He was opportunistic, though. He never once ran while on the Thunderbolts and he built his armor alongside Fixer. Abe struggled to keep it operating sure, but it held together for the most part. He can maintain his equipment and understand it far better than Eric can handle his.

Eric's opportunistic. and Eric learned how to use the Ant-Man armor quicker than any of the other applicants. it's why he's Ant-Man even after stealing from SHIELD. he's not identical to Abe. but there are similarities in their origins. Eric, too, was all about getting respect once he became a hero. at first he just wanted to be an action hero for SHIELD w/o really putting the work into it. he's about cutting corners. but i'm not sure while we're even arguing this. superficially, they are both professional losers in sophisticated insectoid armors. both their armors are based on insect mechanics. they both are something other than evil. Abe just wanted respect. Eric just wanted to be seen as a hero so he could get laid. why do i have to explain this?

And while Beetle might have run every now and then as a villain, it certainly wasn't his first instinct. He held out in fights and commanded more self respect than Eric ever could.

it sure was his 1st instinct. he was always thinking about running (mostly from the people he had screwed over). like i mentioned, i have all of his appearances. he hid in a chimney from Spider-man; who he spent an entire issue sweating about but was bullied by a chubby bespectacled Kingpin employer into pulling a heist that got him unwanted attention. when he was a black man for awhile he certainly didn't rush out to fight Gravitron. he has suggested that the tbolts give up a number of times/doubted his own usefulness. and Eric has acted boldly before, as well. he has risked his neck to help others. he's just not that powerful so some fights he has to duck out of. he still attempted to take down the Hulk. he still jumped off a Helicarrier & got dressed in mid-air. he still risked his butt to get Black Fox out of prison.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26948/516048-an14_super.png
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26948/516050-an15_super.png

None of them are on the team to improve themselves. That makes them unlike virtually every Thunderbolt.

you haven't read 1 issue w/ the new team in it.

What assumption are you talking about? When she was introduced in the Black Widow mini, Widow 2 was highly accomplished and confident. She had to be to fight on Widow 1's level.

she was upset that she hadn't scored higher than Natasha. she needs to be better because she's insecure. otherwise, Natasha wouldn't matter. duhh.

[The Cool Thatguy]

tell me you're kidding? how did you write that with a straight face? what do you think a black ops team is? were the public aware of the Redeemers? i almost feel like not answering the rest of your post. you're just being obtuse.

lol

That's great :rolleyes:

Spare me your outrage. You're just using it to cover up the fact that you made a mistake. You want black-ops, you look at Suicide Squad, X-Force and the upcoming Thunderbolts.

Black-ops, the Redeemers weren't. They were assembled for a single mission, to stop a rogue government agent. They killed no one, they didn't operate with any deniability and after their first mission, they were placed under the command of Captain Freakin' America and operated openly on behalf of the CSA. Yeah, real hush hush operation :rolleyes:

you haven't read one issue involving the new team. you know nothing.

True, but I do know what the writer has said. And he's said that Songbird is a subplot, not a cast character.

only to the ignorant. Ghost cares about a challenge. he takes great pride into being able to break into places. and the bigger the corporation, the bigger the feeling of accomplishment. a hacker, by definition, enjoys a challenge. .

Ghost isn't a hacker by defination. He's a terrorist who hates corporations, who uses hacking as a tool in his arsenal. Hell, his hacking isn't accomplished by his programming skills, but his contact with machines. He cares nothing about bragging rights, and sought to keep his own existance a secret for a considerable amount of time.

who are his close friends? you call masquerading as Ogre a sign that he's not a loner. why? what connection was making with them? wasn't Ogre, himself, a hermit?.

Are you kidding?

First, lets be clear. Techno sought out the Thunderbolts. That ain't the behavior of a loner.

As for why he pretended to be Orgre, maybe because the last time the Thunderbolts saw him, he tried to kill them?

paranoid? like making sure that your personality is instantly downloaded into a robot if your neck is ever snapped? .

How is that paranoid? Besides the fact that he was on one of the only hero teams around and thus constantly in danger, he first transplanted his mind because he felt someone with superstrength grab his head. That was self preservation, not paranoid.


Eric's opportunistic. and Eric learned how to use the Ant-Man armor quicker than any of the other applicants. it's why he's Ant-Man even after stealing from SHIELD. he's not identical to Abe. but there are similarities in their origins. Eric, too, was all about getting respect once he became a hero. at first he just wanted to be an action hero for SHIELD w/o really putting the work into it. he's about cutting corners. but i'm not sure while we're even arguing this. superficially, they are both professional losers in sophisticated insectoid armors. both their armors are based on insect mechanics. they both are something other than evil. Abe just wanted respect. Eric just wanted to be seen as a hero so he could get laid. why do i have to explain this? .

Because you compared the two?

it sure was his 1st instinct. he was always thinking about running (mostly from the people he had screwed over). like i mentioned, i have all of his appearances. he hid in a chimney from Spider-man; who he spent an entire issue sweating about but was bullied by a chubby bespectacled Kingpin employer into pulling a heist that got him unwanted attention. when he was a black man for awhile he certainly didn't rush out to fight Gravitron. he has suggested that the tbolts give up a number of times/doubted his own usefulness. and Eric has acted boldly before, as well. he has risked his neck to help others. he's just not that powerful so some fights he has to duck out of. he still attempted to take down the Hulk. he still jumped off a Helicarrier & got dressed in mid-air. he still risked his butt to get Black Fox out of prison.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26948/516048-an14_super.png
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26948/516050-an15_super.png.

When Graviton came a calling, to be fair, Abe just wanted a normal life.

You seem to ignore his successes, like leading the Sinister Syndicate who nearly killed Spider-Man and Silver Sable. Abe also willingly turned himself in for his crimes twice and while not a perfect leader, led the team to victory over Hydra and Baron Strucker.

you haven't read 1 issue w/ the new team in it..

True, but I know the premise.

she was upset that she hadn't scored higher than Natasha. she needs to be better because she's insecure. otherwise, Natasha wouldn't matter. duhh.

She's mildly insecure. But Widow 2 can still pull off all kinds of missions and operations that would have left Mel dead face down in the dirt. She only needs to score a win over a single person.

Mel needed a man, any man, to give her life defination. Big difference.

[Monty_Cristo]

Spare me your outrage. You're just using it to cover up the fact that you made a mistake. You want black-ops, you look at Suicide Squad, X-Force and the upcoming Thunderbolts.

these are comic books. a real black ops team wouldn't be half as flashy as the ones you have listed. all that links them is plausible deniability. well the CSA would have denied any connection to the Thunderbolts; at any stage of the game. they were black ops simply from their status as former villains. no one wanted to claim cooperation w/ the Thunderbolts. did the CSA take credit for sending the Thunderbolts to take the New Avengers down? didn't Joystick break into Sentry's tower w/o connecting herself to the team?

Black-ops, the Redeemers weren't. They were assembled for a single mission, to stop a rogue government agent.

that sounds like a black op to me.

They killed no one, they didn't operate with any deniability and after their first mission, they were placed under the command of Captain Freakin' America and operated openly on behalf of the CSA. Yeah, real hush hush operation :rolleyes:

Captain America has been on black ops missions as well. nothing about the Redeemers made them seem well known or in the public eye. the Beetle was considered to be a villain at that point. Scream's what was left of a former villain. Meteorite was the daughter of a villain. Fixer was considered a villain. Jolt was thought to be dead. and Citizen V was Helmut Zemo posing as a secret agent. who were they working for again? who knew about their mission?

True, but I do know what the writer has said. And he's said that Songbird is a subplot, not a cast character.

that's not a direct quote. if Songbird isn't dead, he plans on using her. he specifically mentioned Mel not appreciating what Osborn had done to her Thunderbolts; making a mockery of it. that basically makes this book Songbird vs Osborn. Osborn's winning right now.

Ghost isn't a hacker by defination. He's a terr..blah blah bla

"Ghost is a corporate saboteur and long-time enemy of Tony Stark, with invisibility and intangibility powers. He's also a master hacker, able to crack any vault and penetrate any system. He's also paranoid and untrustworthy, spending way too much time intangible -- so he's starting to lose touch with reality, and ignoring the needs of his physical body. He's kind of wasting away inside that grimy suit."

First, lets be clear. Techno sought out the Thunderbolts. That ain't the behavior of a loner.

Wolverine's a loner.

As for why he pretended to be Orgre, maybe because the last time the Thunderbolts saw him, he tried to kill them?

yeah, sounds like a real people person. :eye rollage:


When Graviton came a calling, to be fair, Abe just wanted a normal life.

You seem to ignore his successes, like leading the Sinister Syndicate who nearly killed Spider-Man and Silver Sable. Abe also willingly turned himself in for his crimes twice and while not a perfect leader, led the team to victory over Hydra and Baron Strucker.

fair game. you ignored Eric's successes. and Abe was constantly doubting himself and thinking about his teammates killing him when he was part of the Sinister Syndicate. and you're talking about a super-powered team vs Spider-man and some non-powered chick w/ a gun. and Hawkeye's the one that told him to turn himself in. Abe's initial reaction was reluctance. his redemption wasn't self-initiated. that's why i'm comparing him to Ant-Man. Eric had to find someone he cared about to begin changing. and he did set out to join the Initiative because of a girl. you talk about Abe wanting a normal life and that being an excuse for cowardice. what do you think Eric was trying to do? why do you think he avoided getting killed? might it have something to do w/ him wanting to return to Visioneer or be able to make child support payments to Veronica? Abe became the Beetle because he was bored at his job. Eric stayed Ant-Man because he was bored at his.


True, but I know the premise.

only the small pieces that have been provided to you. do you think Busiek would have given away the entire story if he had given an interview before his run? do you think he would have told you that the others were going to turn on Zemo after he managed to nanoprobe the planet? it'd be arrogant to think you know the full story.

She's mildly insecure. But Widow 2 can still pull off all kinds of missions and operations that would have left Mel dead face down in the dirt. She only needs to score a win over a single person.

Mel needed a man, any man, to give her life defination. Big difference.

whatever man. you're reaching. they have insecurity in common. but Yelena always got her marching orders from a man, as well. she was quite devoted (naively so) to her instructor.

[rogerio]

I'm not too familiar with Diggle... but I might check this out for the new team.

You should read The Losers series first.
Andy Diggle said there are some similarity with the characters...:smile:

[Monty_Cristo]

Quote by Diggle in his interview "THUNDERBOLTS has always a been about the possibility of redemption, and while Norman has done his best to expunge any trace of conscience from his new team, some unlikely heroes might just emerge—assuming they can stay alive long enough."

[rogerio]

awesome image...I cannot wait to read it...:smile:
http://www.marvel.com/globals/view_generic.htm?filename=/i/content/st/1355new_storyimage0130491_full.jpg

[Joe Franklin]

Here are a few awesome quotes from an Andy Diggle IGN interview.

Diggle: Things have been pretty dark for the Thunderbolts for a while now, but now that I've got Paladin and Eric O'Grady a.k.a. the Irredeemable Ant-Man on the team, there's room for some laughs in between the bursts of extreme violence. Or possibly during.

Diggle: I love the idea of pitting a team led by the "evil" Black Widow, Yelena Belova, against a fruitcake like Deadpool. It's such a great contrast; he's as funny as she is somber. Yelena takes herself waaaay too seriously, and designs these meticulous, intricate plans - which of course go straight out the window the moment Deadpool enters the mix. They say "no plan ever survives contact with the enemy," and that's doubly true when the enemy is an unpredictable nutcase like Deadpool!

Diggle: Norman's new-found power may just have lulled him into a false sense of security. He thinks he's untouchable, and only a lunatic would think he could get to him. Deadpool is that lunatic.

Diggle: Norman's new Thunderbolts team are hand-picked for covert infiltration and assassination. But the deadliest members might not be the most obvious ones. Sure, Venom or Bullseye could rip you a new one - but just imagine where Ant-Man could hide a micro-explosive while you're sleeping. There's brains as well as brawn on the new team.

Diggle: I've always felt there aren't nearly enough outrageous decapitations in Marvel's comics, so I brought the Headsman onto the team to put that right. Trust me, this one's going to get messy.

Diggle: Songbird had dirt on Norman, and that didn't work out so well for her. With the Thunderbolts becoming a covert sister team to the Avengers, Deadpool better watch his ass. At the same time, each new member of the Thunderbolts needs to prove to they're up to the job if they don't want to become the team's next target. Norman isn't exactly forgiving of failure...

Diggle: I give you my personal guarantee that this story is 100% free from any whining, navel-gazing, hand-wringing, overly drawn-out soap-opera bulls**t. What you get for your hard-earned cash is a fast, dense, funny, action-packed slice of raw escapist entertainment. Comics, baby!

[artiepants]

I'm really excited to see the New New Thunderbolts in action...

[Monty_Cristo]

Here are a few awesome quotes from an Andy Diggle IGN interview.

Diggle: Things have been pretty dark for the Thunderbolts for a while now, but now that I've got Paladin and Eric O'Grady a.k.a. the Irredeemable Ant-Man on the team, there's room for some laughs in between the bursts of extreme violence. Or possibly during.

Diggle: I love the idea of pitting a team led by the "evil" Black Widow, Yelena Belova, against a fruitcake like Deadpool. It's such a great contrast; he's as funny as she is somber. Yelena takes herself waaaay too seriously, and designs these meticulous, intricate plans - which of course go straight out the window the moment Deadpool enters the mix. They say "no plan ever survives contact with the enemy," and that's doubly true when the enemy is an unpredictable nutcase like Deadpool!

Diggle: Norman's new-found power may just have lulled him into a false sense of security. He thinks he's untouchable, and only a lunatic would think he could get to him. Deadpool is that lunatic.

Diggle: Norman's new Thunderbolts team are hand-picked for covert infiltration and assassination. But the deadliest members might not be the most obvious ones. Sure, Venom or Bullseye could rip you a new one - but just imagine where Ant-Man could hide a micro-explosive while you're sleeping. There's brains as well as brawn on the new team.

Diggle: I've always felt there aren't nearly enough outrageous decapitations in Marvel's comics, so I brought the Headsman onto the team to put that right. Trust me, this one's going to get messy.

Diggle: Songbird had dirt on Norman, and that didn't work out so well for her. With the Thunderbolts becoming a covert sister team to the Avengers, Deadpool better watch his ass. At the same time, each new member of the Thunderbolts needs to prove to they're up to the job if they don't want to become the team's next target. Norman isn't exactly forgiving of failure...

Diggle: I give you my personal guarantee that this story is 100% free from any whining, navel-gazing, hand-wringing, overly drawn-out soap-opera bulls**t. What you get for your hard-earned cash is a fast, dense, funny, action-packed slice of raw escapist entertainment. Comics, baby!

thanks Joe! i somewhat hate ign for not working on this computer. :D

P.S. i like the description of the tbolts as the sister team to the Avengers. although "sister" is so wrong.

[Joe Franklin]

thanks Joe! i somewhat hate ign for not working on this computer. :D

You are welcome.

Sounds like Diggle is going to do Eric right in the T-Bolts. The Paladin/Ant-Man stuff sounds awesome.:cool:

[Monty_Cristo]

You are welcome.

Sounds like Diggle is going to do Eric right in the T-Bolts. The Paladin/Ant-Man stuff sounds awesome.:cool:

i knew there was buddy material there. he's gone from Black Fox, to Monstro, to Taskmaster, to the Shadow Initiative, and on to Paladin. what next, Ant-Man/Juggernaut?

[Monty_Cristo]

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/633027-thunderbolts_francesco_mattina128_super.jpg

see that crazy looking dude in the hockey mask (front of lineup)? who the *@#$ is that?! and who does he think he is?!

[some some fun speculation before Diggle actually debuts his new Thunderbolts lineup]

Scarecrow
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5586/458866-s11_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5586/478654-sc1_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/190263-113725-scarecrow_super.jpg

Foolkiller
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/229/592396-1_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/186603-81539-foolkiller_super.jpg

Raoul Bushman
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/80144-125681-bushman_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/176109-46004-bushman_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/176111-69610-bushman_super.jpg

Crossbones
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/87226-36472-crossbones_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/787/87184-18538-crossbones_super.PNG

Cottonmouth
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/202229-10352-cottonmouth_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6535/361789-138858-cottonmouth_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6535/376658-159379-cottonmouth_super.jpg

Jack O'Lantern
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/99085-109879-jack-o-lantern_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26826/512417-jack_o_lantern_super.jpg

Marc Spector
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/8190/545243-moonkn025_cov_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/40/172053-51716-moon-knight_super.jpg

Helmut Zemo
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/430469-zemo_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/88966-6110-baron-helmut-zemo_super.jpg

[StoneGold]

Mutant Zero?

[Monty_Cristo]

Mutant Zero?

he doesn't have red hair.

[steveg887]

In a surprise upset, Marvel purchased Wild Dog from DC:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/action-comics/640-1.jpg

But seriously, it's probably Crossbones.

[StoneGold]

Jason Todd? Bucky?



Yep, you guessed it, Frank Stallone.

http://kore.mitene.or.jp/~jamboree/frank%20stallone.jpg

[steveg887]

Jason Todd? Bucky?



Yep, you guessed it, Frank Stallone.

http://kore.mitene.or.jp/~jamboree/frank%20stallone.jpg

I'd buy that in a second.

[bebopeva88]

To my knowledge, I was the first person to float the guess that hockeymask dude was Bushman, and I'm sticking with it.

[TotalWorldDomination]

he doesn't have red hair.

Now, Now, he could have any color hair under there. As a matter of fact that might not even be a man! Someone figure out what Echo's up to!


Put me down for foolkiller. There are fools out there, and they damn sure need killing.

[Big Red Spider]

It's probably Jason Vorhees

[$5 Milkshake]

My guess would either be Foolkiller or Crossbones. I voted Crossbones because I want it to be him :wink:

[chris_powell]

Didnt they announce the team members somewhere? I know Ant-man is on the team.

[chris_powell]

Didnt they announce the team members somewhere? I know Ant-man is on the team.

[Alan2099]

A Marvel Villain in a hockey mask?
It's gotta be Vangaard (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/vangaard.htm)

[whiteshark]

Looks like Jason from the Friday 13 movies to me.

[Monty_Cristo]

Looks like Jason from the Friday 13 movies to me.

yeah, but it isn't. so who is it?

Didnt they announce the team members somewhere? I know Ant-man is on the team.

they announced everyone but the hockey mask guy.

[LordEd1976]

I'm going with some Z-Lister that one would only have heard of if they spent WWWAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY too much time reading old handbooks or going to the Appendix website.

[Ash-$]

i'm gona guess scourge of the underworld

[whiteshark]

If it isnt Jason:biggrin:
It is Crossbones ...
or maybee a new character

[marshal99]

There's a old alpha flight villain by the name of freakout that wears a hockey mask and doesn't feel pain , but he was killed ages ago.

http://www.rapsheet.co.uk/Images/Characters/Freakout.jpg

[Vegetarian Goat]

Wayne Gretzky? On Steroids?

[Assemble]

I honestly hope Diggle is half as creative as you. I'd love to see Scarecrow, Cottonmouth or someone like that on the Thunderbolts.

[steveg887]

Wayne Gretzky? On Steroids?

Nice TMNT reference.

[Monty_Cristo]

i can't believe the guy has shown up on 3 covers and we still haven't been given a hint as to his identity? is this the new Mutant Zero? *tears hair out*

[maniacmatt]

Wayne Gretzky? On Steroids?

Haha nice. I love that movie. I remember getting it for my 6th or 7th b-day on VHS. V...H...S...
Anywho...
I think it's Foolkiller, or a Z-lister/new character.

[chris_powell]

yeah, but it isn't. so who is it?



they announced everyone but the hockey mask guy.

Who is everyone else?

[chris_powell]

I was told they did, does anyone have a link?

[BugsySig]

I was told they did, does anyone have a link?

All I know is Yelena Belova (Black Widow), Ant-Man, The Ghost, Headsman and Paladin.

There's a pic at http://www.comicvine.com/thunderbolts/65-23977/thunderbolts_francesco_mattina128/105-633027/. Maybe you can figure out who the other 2 are...

[Arrogantcur]

I'm curious about what's going to be done with the old members. Since I was a fan of Busiek and Nicieza's work on the first volume of the book, I care about Songbird and Moonstone.

[nbkny17]

What about Luke Cage? He did go to Osborn for help in finding his daughter.

[lou-bert vs. q-bert]

Would be neat if it were Baron Zemo.

[Cthulhudrew]

Would be neat if it were Baron Zemo.

That's not actually a bad guess. From the Deadpool cover, it looks like hockey mask has scars on his balding head, and it would fit with the notion of the original TBolts concept- villains masquerading as other people in order to infiltrate society. Perhaps Zemo is going undercover with the TBolts in order to usurp them from Norman.

Although one would think a more effective disguise for him would be to masquerade as another existing character, rather than just throwing on a hockey mask and pretending to be Jason Voorhees. So there must still be some Marvel character that we haven't pegged yet that hockey mask is supposed to represent.

[Monty_Cristo]

What about Luke Cage? He did go to Osborn for help in finding his daughter.

i don't think Bendis would part with his man-crush that easily.

[Monty_Cristo]

That's not actually a bad guess. From the Deadpool cover, it looks like hockey mask has scars on his balding head, and it would fit with the notion of the original TBolts concept- villains masquerading as other people in order to infiltrate society.

but it's a brand new game. now it's "which of these killers has some hidden heroism in them?"

Although one would think a more effective disguise for him would be to masquerade as another existing character, rather than just throwing on a hockey mask and pretending to be Jason Voorhees. So there must still be some Marvel character that we haven't pegged yet that hockey mask is supposed to represent.

yeah, that part makes no sense. and i couldn't imagine Zemo slumming it like this. he would just waltz in and make his challenge known; not hide out as some errand boy for Osborn. Zemo may return but i don't think he's on this cover. plus, if he were going to take over a team i'd think that he'd want the Dark Avengers. the Thunderbolts are the black sheep of the Dark Avengers family.

[Spider-Flash]

anyone say it might be the winner of who wants to be a thunderbolt?

[Monty_Cristo]

anyone say it might be the winner of who wants to be a thunderbolt?

that would be cool. i was kind of hoping that Stabbity Jones would get recruited.