Mary Marvel as bad as Batgirl?

[Samuraixsithlord]

So does anyone dislike the villianization of Mary more then Batgirl or less?

I mean they both had some pretty weak reasons for going bad. When had Mary ever been so power hungry and needy, when did Batgirl give a crap about her dad training other people.

any thoughts

[carabas]

Mary Marvel isn't exactly villainised. Countdown pretty much didn't happen, an in Final Crisis she is possessed by Apokaliptian gods.

Batgirl turn evil on the other hand was just plain bad writing by an idiot who was completely and utterly unfamiliar with the character (and if the current Batgirl mini is anything to judge by, STILL hasn't taken the effort of reading at least the final arc of her ongoing series).

[FemGeek]

I was pretty annoyed at both really. Mary was such a nice character before countdown, and for reasons unknown theyv turned her into a dominatrixy magic junkie. The reasoning in FC is better than countdown though and i'm going to remain optomistic that they'll change her back to nice mary when its done. Johns will also be writing her as evil in JSA next month, but that all happens before FC though I think.
As for Batgirl :mad: Thats just plain terrible writing and an awful idea. Whatever possesed Bechen to turn her into a Bond villain and then apologise to fans by further ruining her I dunno. I'm miles more angry at that because he just made it WORSE when he should have stayed freakin away!

[Samuraixsithlord]

Hopefully her JSA appearance takes place before Final Crisis.

I can't believe that after what happened to her in Countdown and Final Crisis, that she'd still be evil. But Johns did come up with the simple drug excuse for Cass, which i thought was nice and simple.

Now i can see her being manipulated by Black Adam and Isis into joining thier "family" by pointing out that during Countdown Freddy kinda abandoned her, and Billy only came to her once. Maybe play on her desire for parental role model's or something.

if you read the solicitations for the Black Adam arc, it says that the JSA are trying to stop Black Adam and Isis. No mention of them fihting Mary. We just see a cover of her as Black Mary, and Covers sometimes lie.

[Sean Walsh]

I thought Mary's initial plunge into evil was fairly well done. And thankfully, it seems Grant's given us a new explanation for her return to evil ("leering old man!"), since the one toward the end of COUNTDOWN was pure crap and motivated for all the wrong reasons.

[Slackjaws_ate_my_brain]

Say whatever you will about the "Evil Mary marvel" thing, but it honestly boils down to one thing : The Writers love the idea of "A Good Girl Gone Naughty" and find it "sexy". That's it. They can give you 100 reasons, but "Sexual Frustration" and "Fantasy Fulfillment" are really the top 2 reasons for mary's current situation.

It's a shame because I think that Mary, in her "do-gooder", 1950's cheese-ball way, is a more intersting character, as it makes her the only "face" in the League. No "dark, brooding" BS, no "woe-as-me" inner turmoil, just a good person that believes doing good is the best thing. I, for one, love the character for it.

The only Evil Mary Marvel I enjoyed was the "Alternate Earth" version of Mary from "I Can't Believe It's Not The Justice League" (which, to be honest, together with "Formally Know As...", is one of my favorite runs of the last 5 years). Basically, it was played for laughs and they were COMPLTELY open about the reaoning (as pointed out by Guy Gardner during the storyline)

[Mat001]

If you recall in issue three of "Final Crisis", Diana mentions that she had heard about Mary's problems and that she had a hard time believing that she went bad. So she was technically bad to begin with.

When had Mary ever been so power hungry and needy, when did Batgirl give a crap about her dad training other people.

Well, when she was given Black Adam's power, it triggered a hunger for power which worsened as time went on. When Darkseid gave her that power back, that was Dessad. Black Adam couldn't see it when he confronted her about it.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Mary's a helluva lot sexier now.

[celticguy]

she is not bad she is just drawn that way.

[Slackjaws_ate_my_brain]

she is not bad she is just drawn that way.

:biggrin:

That was the best thing I've read all day

[DanCMH]

If Darkseid came to your apartment, sat his dirty ass down on your sofa, and read your copy of Entertainment Weekly you'd probably be evil too...

[Abraxas]

One of the worst thing was creating this "Black Mary Marvel" persona. She is one of the under utilized charcters in the DCU and the only way anyone can make her interesting to make her "dark". This isn't Mary. The closest anyone has got to Mary in the past few years was with the Giffen/Dematties Formerly Known As The Justice League, and I Can't Believe It's Not The Justice League.

[JCAll]

I didn't mind Mary's going evil in Countdown. Well, I did at the time, but her redemption was so good it just doesn't bother me. Plus, after she she turned evil again she was using Kyle Rayner as a club to beat everyone's ass with, while Darkseid was checking out her ass. That was pretty cool actually.

Mary in final crisis is just a no. Seriously. But I don'e expect her to survive anyway, as there aren't enough Giffen/Dematties Leagers in the ground for this crossover yet.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Frankly, Mary goin' bad is the first time i've ever really paid attention to that staid milquetoast carryover from a long-ago generation of comics. So yeah, it's a good thing.

[jester1436]

Frankly, Mary goin' bad is the first time i've ever really paid attention to that staid milquetoast carryover from a long-ago generation of comics. So yeah, it's a good thing.

Yes, transforming a unique character into a bad girl carryover from a not as long-ago generation of comics is such an upgrade for the character. Oooh, she has a boob window and wears leather, I hope we get a Mary Marvel/Lady Death crossover!

[Pixie_Solanas]

Yes, transforming a unique character into a bad girl carryover from a not as long-ago generation of comics is such an upgrade for the character. Oooh, she has a boob window and wears leather, I hope we get a Mary Marvel/Lady Death crossover!

Hey, libido sells. You want to buy a comic with some wholesome girl goodness, Archie Comics for you, good sir. Besides, what's so unique about Mary Marvel in her buttoned-up, chaste original format?

[ashez2ashes]

Hey, libido sells. You want to buy a comic with some wholesome girl goodness, Archie Comics for you, good sir. Besides, what's so unique about Mary Marvel in her buttoned-up, chaste original format?

Um, are we from the same universe? What universe are you reading comic books in? Because the "buttoned-up chaste" heroine happens a lot less frequently than the 'bad girl in leather'. Guys, are you really finding the shaved head pink mohawk thing hot? Her hairstyle looks like hairstyles five year olds do to their barbies....

[IamtheRock3]

from what I understand in final crisis it was outside influences


orgianly Batgirl just DECIDED she was going to snap and go nuts.

[stelok]

The retcon that Batgirl going bad was because of brainwashing by Deathstroke was a much better explanation than the reason which is her father siring and training her half-sister

By the way Isn't Mary Marvel still a minor? isn't she too young to be wearing a sexy costume?

[Suzanne]

I don't like it at all. Mary isn't supposed to be dark and grim. It's one of the reasons I dropped Countdown.

[Mercurialblonde]

She was possessed by Desaad. It's all fixed back now. Mary Marvel fans can rejoice.

[The Xenos]

At least from the get go Mary was always shown as possessed by an evil force. Batgirl was reconnected that she was possessed, horribly at that. We didn't know what was going on with Cass other than "lol, for plot sake" she became a mustache twirling villain. Mary was possessed by an evil god. Plus that whole scene with her and Freddie in the new issue redeemed the whole thing for me. She was innocent all along. That simply was not her. Not quite as simple with Batgirl.