Please don't make humans so despicable

[Karthak]

This has come up before, but I think it deserved it's own thread. Marvel, if you want to create future "the world is threatened" scenarios then you have to make humanity maybe not likeable, but at least tolerable. Just checking this weeks previews on comicscontinuum should make it amply clear what I'm talking about. Anti-mutant hysteria on the rise, Norman Osborn being the hero of the world and the man on the street being even more of a clueless sheep than he was before...It's too much. So much that next time a world-destroying threat shows up I will be rooting for it, because Marvel humanity deserves to be annihilated.

[Golden_Guardian]

This has come up before, but I think it deserved it's own thread. Marvel, if you want to create future "the world is threatened" scenarios then you have to make humanity maybe not likeable, but at least tolerable. Just checking this weeks previews on comicscontinuum should make it amply clear what I'm talking about. Anti-mutant hysteria on the rise, Norman Osborn being the hero of the world and the man on the street being even more of a clueless sheep than he was before...It's too much. So much that next time a world-destroying threat shows up I will be rooting for it, because Marvel humanity deserves to be annihilated.

You want a world destroying threat to commit world-wide genocide!!

That's... er.. despicable!

[Mark_S]

You want a world destroying threat to commit world-wide genocide!!

That's... er.. despicable!

I think it is more the way I feel when I see a horror/slasher movie and see a group of college kids decide to have a party in a graveyard on Halloween. When the zombies attack I really can't blame them. The marvel writers do not give me many reasons to think that the people of the mu-at least the majority-are worth saving.

Mark_S

[Omega Alpha]

But humanity is stupid, unlikable, and very stupid in real life, why should it be different in comics?

[Karthak]

I think it is more the way I feel when I see a horror/slasher movie and see a group of college kids decide to have a party in a graveyard on Halloween. When the zombies attack I really can't blame them. The marvel writers do not give me many reasons to think that the people of the mu-at least the majority-are worth saving.

Mark_S

That's exactly what I was trying to say.:smile:

[JCurwen]

But humanity is stupid, unlikable, and very stupid in real life, why should it be different in comics?

Truth. People, in general, suck.

[Shellhead]

Why should average people in the Marvel Universe be tolerable? Their heroes don't act very heroic anymore, and that sets a bad example.

[XPac]

Civil War definately dried up any ouncy of sympathy I had for government or the public in the MU. If they're this stupid, then they probably deserve whatever befalls them from their stupidity. If they seriously want supervillains running the show, then whatever happens next is really just as much their fault as it is the villians.

That said, comics do show the best of humanity as well as the worst. We've seen heroes, and on occasion even non series, step up and show us just what humans can be made of.

[ZeoVGM]

It's a reflection of reality. What's the problem?

[Expletive Deleted]

Oh, come on. They've been awful since Stan decided it was an easy way to ratchet up the angst for outsider heroes.

[CyberCoyote]

It's a reflection of reality. What's the problem?

But it's a twisted reflection. they cheer Norman Osborn? Would our reality cheer.. Osama Bin Laden if he happened to also shoot a criminal? He's okay now? It just seems a pretty massive stretch. I *think* in the end, like the inconsistencies in Disassembled, there's gonna be some retroactive factor played that explains the people's actions.

[XPac]

But it's a twisted reflection. they cheer Norman Osborn? Would our reality cheer.. Osama Bin Laden if he happened to also shoot a criminal? He's okay now? It just seems a pretty massive stretch. I *think* in the end, like the inconsistencies in Disassembled, there's gonna be some retroactive factor played that explains the people's actions.

It's a bit of a stretch, but it's the direction they have been moving all along. It was really this sudden thing.

The TBolts were publically popular right out of Civil War. And that was a team that largely consisted of criminals and in some cases murderers. But even though they've publically attacked innocent bystandards, they are still largely considered heroes. They have their own dolls. They're on lunch boxs. So Norman being perceived as this hero after saving Washington and personally killing the Skrull Queen was a logical progression of where this was going.

I do agree that making him the most powerful man on the planet really doesn't make sense. But the fact is that the government and public have been established as this stupid long long ago, and by people other than Bendis.

[gorthon616]

But humanity is stupid, unlikable, and very stupid in real life, why should it be different in comics?

Fantasy escapism?

[ViciousX]

Fantasy escapism?

So, think Stan constructed his universe wrong by making humans as pathetic as they really are?

[Expletive Deleted]

Fantasy escapism?A semi-dystopian setting (or however you want to describe it) doesn't negate fantasy escapism. Generally speaking, we're supposed to identify with the exceptional people, not the man on the street.

It's like ATLAS SHRUGGED, but with capes.

[StoneGold]

Oh, come on. They've been awful since Stan decided it was an easy way to ratchet up the angst for outsider heroes.

"It's that awful Spider-Man!"

[agrich]

I remember at the start of World War Hulk some people here thinking that the general public would be outraged when they learned about the heroes shooting the Hulk off into space. When in reality it would be like, Why couldn't you send him further away? or Isn't there any way you can just execute him or something?

As has been dealt with in numerous comic book stories, in the real world people would be fearful and mistrustful of vigilante heroes in costumes, and eager to believe in seemingly normal people who maybe they'd heard a bad thing or two about in the past, but is now "reformed" and doing heroic work to protect our children.

[Shellhead]

"It's that awful Spider-Man!"


Heh, good point. Aunt May is despicable.

[gorthon616]

So, think Stan constructed his universe wrong by making humans as pathetic as they really are?

Sure? I mean I never took Stan's work (though admittedly, I'm not old enough to be personally familiar with it) as equal to the out-and-out misanthropic characterizations we have today. I mean, I'm waiting for the "soylent green is people" moment.

[Shellhead]

I mean, I'm waiting for the "soylent green is people" moment.

That's probably the big crossover story for Marvel in 2009.

[gorthon616]

A semi-dystopian setting (or however you want to describe it) doesn't negate fantasy escapism. Generally speaking, we're supposed to identify with the exceptional people, not the man on the street.

It's like ATLAS SHRUGGED, but with capes.

:confused:

Is Atlas Shrugged suddenly a fantasy book now?

I don't think I've ever had that "I want to escape from reality so let me read Atlas Shrugged" moment.

[gorthon616]

That's probably the big crossover story for Marvel in 2009.

Makes sense. It's an idea that's been done before and done better. So it's right up Bendis's alley.

[ViciousX]

I've never had that "I want to escape from reality" moment.

I love allegory.

[StoneGold]

Sure? I mean I never took Stan's work (though admittedly, I'm not old enough to be personally familiar with it) as equal to the out-and-out misanthropic characterizations we have today. I mean, I'm waiting for the "soylent green is people" moment.

In Ghost Box 2, Future versions of Armor and Beast were eating regenerating flesh off Wolverine

[gorthon616]

In Ghost Box 2, Future versions of Armor and Beast were eating regenerating flesh off Wolverine

Rahne also ate her dad in X-Force. Hmm... Me thinks the anti-mutant hysteria might not be so unfounded after all.

[CyberCoyote]

Rahne also ate her dad in X-Force. Hmm... Me thinks the anti-mutant hysteria might not be so unfounded after all.

Ewww. There's a bit of Mutant history I may have lived well enough not having found out :eek:

[chaosakita]

A semi-dystopian setting (or however you want to describe it) doesn't negate fantasy escapism. Generally speaking, we're supposed to identify with the exceptional people, not the man on the street.

It's like ATLAS SHRUGGED, but with capes.

Wow, that's a really great way to put it.

[mikekerr3]

It's a reflection of reality. What's the problem?


That's only the reflection of reality for someone who hates people, most people do the right thing when given a chance. If that's not true on the people aroundyou either seek counseling or hang out somewhere else.:frown:

[marvell2100]

Just one question. Does anyone like their co-workers? No, because they irritate the crap out of us, whining and moaning about how life ain't fair and how they can't stand each other. And these people make up 95 percent of the population. People are just stupid.

[chaosakita]

Just one question. Does anyone like their co-workers? No, because they irritate the crap out of us, whining and moaning about how life ain't fair and how they can't stand each other. And these people make up 95 percent of the population. People are just stupid.

And you aren't, right?

[marvell2100]

And you aren't, right?

Never said I wasn't. I'm here with you aren't I? I was trying to be funny so please don't take it too seriously.

[CyberCoyote]

Just one question. Does anyone like their co-workers? No, because they irritate the crap out of us, whining and moaning about how life ain't fair and how they can't stand each other. And these people make up 95 percent of the population. People are just stupid.

'people' en masse can seem stupid.

Individuals I have few problems with. And I work in an open floor with about 50 folks near me. ONE of them irks me, the rest I think are fine individuals :) Marvel average people are about 13 steps below real life average people.:frown:

I get the point (and that you're joking), but Marvel folk really do come off as the worst possible cross section of real people. Marvel folk would never realize a plane is going to be used as a weapon and sacrifice themselves to stop the terrorists. OUR people did that. Our people have heroes in them, Marvel's people are mindless twits some times.

[gorthon616]

'people' en masse can seem stupid.

Not seem. Are. People in large qualities have a tendency to dramatically drop in their level of honesty, integrity, and autonomy.

Personally, I think a lot of the negative characterization of MU population is just due to cheap lazy writing. Most writing is more about promoting ideas rather than dissecting them and having layered characters doesn't help them fit the story to what they want to say.

[chaosakita]

Never said I wasn't. I'm here with you aren't I? I was trying to be funny so please don't take it too seriously.

You were joking? But jokes are supposed to be funny!


Not seem. Are. People in large qualities have a tendency to dramatically drop in their level of honesty, integrity, and autonomy.

How does that work? So once people start working in really large numbers together, they become worse or something?

[jackolover]

It's a bit of a stretch, but it's the direction they have been moving all along. It was really this sudden thing.

The TBolts were publically popular right out of Civil War. And that was a team that largely consisted of criminals and in some cases murderers. But even though they've publically attacked innocent bystandards, they are still largely considered heroes. They have their own dolls. They're on lunch boxs. So Norman being perceived as this hero after saving Washington and personally killing the Skrull Queen was a logical progression of where this was going.

I do agree that making him the most powerful man on the planet really doesn't make sense. But the fact is that the government and public have been established as this stupid long long ago, and by people other than Bendis.

Maria Hill should be the queen of Despicable humanity. This woman shows other humans what to do with super humans. She disagrees super humans have any worth whatsoever, and the quicker she can find reasons to get rid of them, the better for mankind. She agrees with genocide, as in the Savage Land, and Attalan, and she has now become the hero version of the common man appearing everywhere in the MU. Humans are making a comeback in the MU. For decades they have shivered the the corner of the Marvel Universe, frozen with fear. But after the Secret War, everything changed. The President made Maria Hill in charge of SHIELD, and to this day, her example has been embraced by the people who once used to stand in awe of it's heroes, but now, spurn and spit on them.

I don't know where the humans are going to go with this. They had this smooth ride at Marvel for 4 decades, and super humans have made them sick of the genre.

[jackolover]

. Marvel folk would never realize a plane is going to be used as a weapon and sacrifice themselves to stop the terrorists. OUR people did that. Our people have heroes in them, Marvel's people are mindless twits some times.

Man, that was some heroism. Just thinking about it sends chills up my spine. I'd like to know who those people were. That is what Marvel heroes should be based on.

[Omega Alpha]

But it's a twisted reflection. they cheer Norman Osborn? Would our reality cheer.. Osama Bin Laden if he happened to also shoot a criminal? He's okay now?

Well, Bin Laden has a lot of followers and supporters... That and the fact that the comparison between both isn't apt. Bin Laden is a known terrorist and mass murderer. Osborn is mostly famous in the MU by trying to kill Spider-Man, who nobody really likes.

[The Black Guardian]

Just one question. Does anyone like their co-workers? No, because they irritate the crap out of us, whining and moaning about how life ain't fair and how they can't stand each other. And these people make up 95 percent of the population. People are just stupid.
Out of the number of people that I've known throughout my life, only a very small percentage could I have said this about -- maybe 5-10%, at most.

[B. Kuwanger]

But it's a twisted reflection. they cheer Norman Osborn? Would our reality cheer.. Osama Bin Laden if he happened to also shoot a criminal? He's okay now? It just seems a pretty massive stretch. I *think* in the end, like the inconsistencies in Disassembled, there's gonna be some retroactive factor played that explains the people's actions.

I think comparing Norman to Osama is a stretch. I can't see the average man in the MU making that comparison, either.

[CaptainOtter]

I think Marvel editors themselves have a pretty good take on humans actually. We see times when they really explore the virtues of humanity. For instance, take the recent ASM issue with flash thompson. Pretty good view of humanity right there.

I think Marvel likes using people and the government as plot devices. It makes things more interesting. I mean, if everyone loved spiderman and praised him for all he did, would he be quite as interesting? Sure there is some commentary on the media there, but it really exists to set up spidey's character, not the character of humanity. With the X-men, having them be outcasts who are hated by the world and hunted down is part of what gives them an edge. If they wernt treated as such, they would basically be the exact same thing as the avengers. The government and will of the people are eternal. They can be defeated but never removed, so the status quo will never change. Which is what comic books rely on these days.

[Michael P]

This has come up before, but I think it deserved it's own thread. Marvel, if you want to create future "the world is threatened" scenarios then you have to make humanity maybe not likeable, but at least tolerable. Just checking this weeks previews on comicscontinuum should make it amply clear what I'm talking about. Anti-mutant hysteria on the rise, Norman Osborn being the hero of the world and the man on the street being even more of a clueless sheep than he was before...It's too much. So much that next time a world-destroying threat shows up I will be rooting for it, because Marvel humanity deserves to be annihilated.

What do you expect from misanthropic nerds given free rein and altogether too much confirmation bias?