DC and Marvel Month-to-Month Sales for October 2008

[4PointOh]

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/12/10/dc-month-to-month-sales-october-2008/

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/12/08/marvel-month-to-month-sales-october-2008/


76 - WONDER WOMAN

10/2001: Wonder Woman #175 — 33,359*

10/2002: Wonder Woman #186 — 23,358*

10/2003: Wonder Woman #197 — 28,944 [29,854]

10/2004: Wonder Woman #209 — 25,964

10/2005: Wonder Woman #221 — 52,894

10/2005: Wonder Woman #222 — 47,065 [49,101]

10/2006: –

————————————-

10/2007: Wonder Woman #13 — 48,385 (- 4.9%)

11/2007: Wonder Woman #14 — 53,090 (+ 9.7%)

12/2007: Wonder Woman #15 — 44,628 (-15.9%)

01/2008: Wonder Woman #16 — 42,897 (- 3.9%)

02/2008: Wonder Woman #17 — 41,948 (- 2.2%)

03/2008: Wonder Woman #18 — 40,771 (- 2.8%)

04/2008: Wonder Woman #19 — 39,489 (- 3.1%)

05/2008: Wonder Woman #20 — 38,116 (- 3.5%)

06/2008: Wonder Woman #21 — 37,086 (- 2.7%)

07/2008: Wonder Woman #22 — 36,514 (- 1.5%)

08/2008: Wonder Woman #23 — 35,562 (- 2.6%)

09/2008: Wonder Woman #24 — 34,583 (- 2.8%)

10/2008: Wonder Woman #25 — 33,583 (- 2.9%)

—————-

6 months: -15.0%

1 year : -30.6%

2 years : n.a.

5 years : +16.0%The second potential “anniversary issue” retailers skipped over in October. But, to be fair, so did DC, in this case.

More significantly, the book is still losing a thousand units from one month to the next, and the supposed major storyline that’s meant to get the book on solid commercial ground again next year has had the bad fortune of being publicly run over by DC editor-in-chief Dan DiDio.

DiDio hasn’t just been talking about the story for what feels like forever, he also, bafflingly, thought it was a good idea to give it a silly nickname. Because nothing generates marketing buzz like ridiculing a concept and making people really, really tired of hearing of it before it’s even solicited, apparently.

[Cam63]

Dan certainly marches to the beat of his own drum re positive publicity.

[4PointOh]

I've said before that WONDER WOMAN, and this HUGE storyline in particular, is getting a raw deal. Superman, Batman and Green Lantern, with New Krypton, RIP and Blackest Night respectively, are getting TONS of attention. Rise of the Olympian is getting such little attention (from DC itself) that it's a bit unsettling--particularly if they want this to be a success.

Gail's putting her all into this. A little PUBLIC corporate attention isn't too much to ask. Let's see a Newsarama or IGN article/interview.

[Charles RB]

It's possible they're spending all available time and resource re promotion on the books they are giving big pushes for.

Which then begs the question of why those books and not Wonder Woman. (Won't Olympian come out a bit before Blackest Night?)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

It's possible they're spending all available time and resource re promotion on the books they are giving big pushes for.

Which then begs the question of why those books and not Wonder Woman. (Won't Olympian come out a bit before Blackest Night?)

Pretty much Batman and Superman are getting the primo pushes for now. Their arcs are changing the landscape I suppose...

[4PointOh]

Pretty much Batman and Superman are getting the primo pushes for now. Their arcs are changing the landscape I suppose...

Wonder Woman's arc is supposed to be changing the landscape too though.

:confused:

[kingdom2000]

Yeah I have to agree with the anaysis. Its supposedly a HUGE storyline but really information wise all we have heard is "Manazons" and something to do wtih the Gods. Beyond that almost zero meaningful information that makes people go "hmm i don't read wonder woman but now I will check it out."

To sell something you need a hook that invites curiosity. Batman had "RIP" as in "defeated? dead? replaced?, read the story to find out what happens to Batman" (only to find out nada and remain confused). Secret Invasion - "the entire Marvel universe is invaded and no idea which heroes are the aliens in disguise!". Final Crisis - "The DCU is about to be destroyed by Darkseid. Its the day evil wins!" Green Lantern - "The War of Light is coming, but what are the Black Lanterns and what does this mean for our Green heroes?"

All those hooks bring up immediate follow up questions that make you curious. The adverts, interviews etc for Wonder Woman have remained so secret that the hook is even unknown. The hook has really become "stuff happens to Wonder Woman and trust us this stuff that happens is different and worse then the stuff that has happened before!"

[NickThompson]

I've said before that WONDER WOMAN, and this HUGE storyline in particular, is getting a raw deal. Superman, Batman and Green Lantern, with New Krypton, RIP and Blackest Night respectively, are getting TONS of attention. Rise of the Olympian is getting such little attention (from DC itself) that it's a bit unsettling--particularly if they want this to be a success.

Gail's putting her all into this. A little PUBLIC corporate attention isn't too much to ask. Let's see a Newsarama or IGN article/interview.
It's one of DC's big problems IMO. The books are good, but they sure don't market them very well.

[Weetomuncher]

DC and Marvel have a habit of ignoring books that they can't hype to the hills (generally a seven part series that actually requires the purchase of fifty books to make sense of!) instead of a well written and illustrated title that could be built up into a top selling title through sensible promotion and word of mouth.

Readers are too often pushed into Total Crisis War on Infinite Parallel Worlds That Are Suspiciously Similar To Earth instead of an established quality book.

[NickThompson]

DC and Marvel have a habit of ignoring books that they can't hype to the hills (generally a seven part series that actually requires the purchase of fifty books to make sense of!) instead of a well written and illustrated title that could be built up into a top selling title through sensible promotion and word of mouth.

Readers are too often pushed into Total Crisis War on Infinite Parallel Worlds That Are Suspiciously Similar To Earth instead of an established quality book.
Part of that is because all books have a ceiling. Not only will more people read Secret Invasion than Wonder Woman, but a bit promotional push will potentially bring in more people for it.

[4PointOh]

Part of that is because all books have a ceiling. Not only will more people read Secret Invasion than Wonder Woman, but a bit promotional push will potentially bring in more people for it.

And advertising won't potentially bring in more people for WONDER WOMAN?

[NickThompson]

And advertising won't potentially bring in more people for WONDER WOMAN?
Yeah, but it could bring in more people for all books. Some can bring in more than others.


It sucks that Wonder Woman apparently (Sales estimates and lacking some areas etc) sells so low, I'm enjoying the book, but I don't blame DC for using their limited ad space on books that could gain a bigger boost.

[BnL]

Yeah, but it could bring in more people for all books. Some can bring in more than others.


It sucks that Wonder Woman apparently (Sales estimates and lacking some areas etc) sells so low, I'm enjoying the book, but I don't blame DC for using their limited ad space on books that could gain a bigger boost.

It's not really fair to compare sales of an on-going series to a company-wide event mini series. But we have seen that Wonder Woman has the potential to sell big numbers. The first couple of issues of the relaunch sold huge. If only it wasn't mediocre, and wasn't followed up by the atrocious Amazons Attack!, it could've held onto a lot of those readers.

[Evan Waters]

I've often felt that DC plays their cards too close to their chest when it comes to big events. Good and bad, Marvel's recent string of events have all been straightforwardly presented: "An alternate reality where mutants are in control." "Heroes fight over government registration." "Hulk comes to Earth and he's pissed." "Skrulls everywhere."

DC, by contrast, gave absolutely no indication of what, precisely, INFINITE CRISIS was going to be about before they started publishing it, and even then the basic conflict wasn't revealed until 3 issues in. 52 had a broad "year without the Big Three" hook, but it was about a bunch of other stuff really. COUNTDOWN had no stated mission at all, and FINAL CRISIS was a vague "Evil wins, and maybe the New Gods are involved" buildup. It's like their answer to "so what's this series about" is "Wouldn't YOU like to know!"

Of course, they tried the more direct approach with AMAZONS ATTACK, but that had... other problems. SINESTRO CORPS, however, benefitted from the straightforward approach- the plot was "a bunch of bad guys form their own GLC! Except they're yellow and all." That was all you needed to know to jump in. I bought into FINAL CRISIS because I like Grant Morrison, but overall I feel more comfortable diving into a book if I know what kind of book it will be.

[stealthwise]

With the exception of Vertigo and "fringe titles" like Secret Six, DC is more or less dead to me.

Green Lantern are still all right, but I'm conflicted as to whether keep buying them, as I don't want to have to buy any other tie-ins to other titles.

[JeffreyWKramer]

With the exception of Vertigo and "fringe titles" like Secret Six, DC is more or less dead to me.


Same here, pretty much. I'm sticking with BATMAN, DETECTIVE and of course JONAH HEX, plus SECRET SIX. I think that's it now.

My Marvel list isn't much bigger, because I avoided everything SECRET INVASION-related, and find the very idea of this new "event" (DARK REIGN or whatever) unbelievably retarded.

So, a known psychotic murderer becomes a national hero because he, not surprisingly, kills someone... but because he kills someone else vile (as opposed to just throwing a young woman off a bridge or something like that), not only is all forgiven, but he's also made the head of the world's biggest security force by the President of the United States.

That's too ridiculous a premise for a SOUTH PARK episode, and Marvel turns it into their next big crossover event.

[Michael P]

It's not even a crossover, really, it's just the post-crossover marketing banner. Which, in its own way, is just as stupid.

[JeffreyWKramer]

It's not even a crossover, really, it's just the post-crossover marketing banner. Which, in its own way, is just as stupid.

Marketing banner, crossover, whatever. Lame specials, launches of new titles based around the core lame concept, fucking up the status quo of ongoing books and of the whole setting for sake of a shock-value marketing stunt ... same shit, different terminology.

I just hope CAPTAIN AMERICA and IRON FIST are mostly left alone.

[Bob Violence]

Marketing banner, crossover, whatever. Lame specials, launches of new titles based around the core lame concept, fucking up the status quo of ongoing books and of the whole setting for sake of a shock-value marketing stunt ... same shit, different terminology.

Quoted, because it bears repeating.
I don't know who buys all these things. Every event, especially at Marvel, seems to be so sprawling they never seem to end, they just keep spinning off into the next Big Event.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Quoted, because it bears repeating.
I don't know who buys all these things. Every event, especially at Marvel, seems to be so sprawling they never seem to end, they just keep spinning off into the next Big Event.

That's Marvel's current strategy. Constant over-the-top, with no real attempt at logic or internal consistency.

I used to be shocked at how awful books like CIVIL WAR were, but at this point I'm amazed when a book like CAPTAIN AMERICA somehow manages to be good in this environment.

[NickThompson]

Quoted, because it bears repeating.
I don't know who buys all these things. Every event, especially at Marvel, seems to be so sprawling they never seem to end, they just keep spinning off into the next Big Event.
Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.


I enjoyed Civil War and Secret Invasion, so did lots of other people.

[TROUBLEZ]

DiDio hasn’t just been talking about the story for what feels like forever, he also, bafflingly, thought it was a good idea to give it a silly nickname. Because nothing generates marketing buzz like ridiculing a concept and making people really, really tired of hearing of it before it’s even solicited, apparently.[/B]

Actually, reading about the upcoming "Manazon" story kind of put me off of the idea too.
I just barely read a few lines about this new storyline and I got images of a bunch of built guys with long hair, scantily clad taking over for the women at Paradise Island.

I just recently saw a cover or ad for something like, "Rise of the Olympian." Is this the Manazon storyline? Because hyping up "Rise of..." is a much more intriguing title.

[NickThompson]

Marketing banner, crossover, whatever. Lame specials, launches of new titles based around the core lame concept, fucking up the status quo of ongoing books and of the whole setting for sake of a shock-value marketing stunt ... same shit, different terminology.

I just hope CAPTAIN AMERICA and IRON FIST are mostly left alone.
Firstly, it's not the same shit. One is an event, one is the post-event.

Second, launches of new titles based around the core lame concept which are things like the awesome Agents of Atlas or Secret Warriors written by the awesome Jonathan Hickman? Oh no, how terrible. Books struggle to get a footing in the marketplace these days, what's so terrible about giving them a little help? This thread has gone from moaning about Wonder Woman and other small titles not being supported to moaning about small titles getting a push!

As for shock-value marketing stunt, I think that's very cynical. How is it any different from any other big change. Was the Dark Phoenix Saga a shock-value marketing stunt?

And on your final point, I'd argue that Cap has got even better since the post-CW changes, or as you'd call it the fucking up of the status quo.

[BnL]

I just recently saw a cover or ad for something like, "Rise of the Olympian." Is this the Manazon storyline? Because hyping up "Rise of..." is a much more intriguing title.

Yeah, it's the same story.

[TROUBLEZ]

How long is Rise of the Olympian supposed to last for? If this is anything like RIP, or JSA Kingdom Come, I'll pass.

[Lester C.]

In the comic book world Wonder Woman has always been, by far, the bottom tier of the Trinity. The fact that Gail is working on her book doesn’t change anything even though Gail is awesome. So is Wonderwoman as she’s the ONLY female lead that can hold her own book and has for decades but let's be honest in terms of popularity she's no Batman or Superman.

[BnL]

How long is Rise of the Olympian supposed to last for? If this is anything like RIP, or JSA Kingdom Come, I'll pass.

Eight issues.

[TROUBLEZ]

Eight issues.

That sounds pretty reasonable. :smile:

[CutterMike]

So, am I the only person who keeps scrolling past this thread title and reading it as "DC and Marvel Mouth-to-Mouth Sales..." and going "Eeee-e-e-w-w-w..."?

...Please tell me that I'm not the only one...

[BnL]

In the comic book world Wonder Woman has always been, by far, the bottom tier of the Trinity. The fact that Gail is working on her book doesn’t change anything even though Gail is awesome. So is Wonderwoman as she’s the ONLY female lead that can hold her own book and has for decades but let's be honest in terms of popularity she's no Batman or Superman.

While all of that is true, the fact is that Wonder Woman has never gotten the same kind of promotion as Superman and Batman, nor has she actually been written to be on equal footing with Superman and Batman until recently. For a long time, it was enough that she was the lone, long-running female hero who wasn't a sidekick or supporting character. She represented the best of the female heroes of the DCU, and that was enough to grant her the token position in the trinity, without bothering to build her up as a powerful force in any other way. Only now, that designation has much less significance. So there's a lot of ground to make up for, and DC hadn't been doing much about that for a long time. Their treatment of Wonder Woman still leaves a lot to be desired. If they spent as much time trying to build her up and promote her as they have for even Green Lantern, I think we'd see a spike in Wonder Woman's popularity/readership.

[Lester C.]

Dan should get some credit here. Can you think of the last time a bad artist has worked on Gail with anything over at DC? Neither can I. Sure the lack of promotion sucks but at least they are very good at supporting Gail over there by giving her artists that can bring her wonderful world to life.

[BnL]

Dan should get some credit here. Can you think of the last time a bad artist has worked on Gail with anything over at DC? Neither can I. Sure the lack of promotion sucks but at least they are very good at supporting Gail over there by giving her artists that can bring her wonderful world to life.

*cough*LIEFELD*cough*

But yes, Gail generally gets very talented artists, and that's a very good thing.

[Lester C.]

*cough*LIEFELD*cough*

But yes, Gail generally gets very talented artists, and that's a very good thing.

I know that even Gail has panned those two issues of Teen Titans but Rob is a superstar artists and those two filler issues outsold anything Geoff did he did that year and I think all the years before. And as much as we'd love to give Gail credit I think the new readers were coming to read Rob entry into DC comics.

[BnL]

I know that even Gail has panned those two issues of Teen Titans but Rob is a superstar artists and those two filler issues outsold anything Geoff did he did that year and I think all the years before. And as much as we'd love to give Gail credit I think the new readers were coming to read Rob entry into DC comics.

Popular isn't the same as good. :wink:

[Lester C.]

Popular isn't the same as good. :wink:

Now that I think about it, it was kind of strange to see Wonder Girl with a penis. :eek:

[Wonder Watcher]

Whatever DC policy is Wonder Woman is still a worldwide icon, she was even namechecked in UK parliament the other day.

It was alongside Gordon Brown as Superman, but still.....

[carabas]

I know that even Gail has panned those two issues of Teen Titans but Rob is a superstar artists and those two filler issues outsold anything Geoff did he did that year and I think all the years before. And as much as we'd love to give Gail credit I think the new readers were coming to read Rob entry into DC comics.Not actually true. The first issue of that was the best selling issue of the book, but the second one was the second worst selling one.

[BnL]

Whatever DC policy is Wonder Woman is still a worldwide icon, she was even namechecked in UK parliament the other day.

It was alongside Gordon Brown as Superman, but still.....

Yep. The only superheroes with greater worldwide iconic status than her are Superman, Batman and Spiderman. You'd think the powers that be would try to take advantage of that fact...

[Charles RB]

Every event, especially at Marvel, seems to be so sprawling they never seem to end, they just keep spinning off into the next Big Event.

That's exactly what has happened. Secret Invasion's ending is just set-up for the next thing.

[DavidAllred]

DC, by contrast, gave absolutely no indication of what, precisely, INFINITE CRISIS was going to be about before they started publishing it, and even then the basic conflict wasn't revealed until 3 issues in. 52 had a broad "year without the Big Three" hook, but it was about a bunch of other stuff really. COUNTDOWN had no stated mission at all, and FINAL CRISIS was a vague "Evil wins, and maybe the New Gods are involved" buildup. It's like their answer to "so what's this series about" is "Wouldn't YOU like to know!"


I think it's even deeper than that because even after you read the issues, you can still come away with not knowing what the heck just happened, or why. There were places in Countdown I enjoyed, but as a complete story, I couldn't tell you what the main plot points were, or if they were resolved. Final Crisis is pretty much the same thing for me, and so was RIP.

With regards to Wonder Woman and sales, October was the height of $4 to $5 a gallon gas. People cut back on a lot of their extra titles. Personally I had to cut back on five to ten titles a months, it was costing me two to three comics in gas just to get to my LCS and back.

But I do think that DC's brightest days are ahead of them if they play the market right. I've said elsewhere the template they need to use for the solo titles is the Sinestro War template.

[Lester C.]

Not actually true. The first issue of that was the best selling issue of the book, but the second one was the second worst selling one.

Not to be a dick but a lot of people blamed the writing for that. Not because Gail isn't the most awesome writer on the planet, because she is. But because she had NOTHING to work with. The only thing I remember about the two issues was Raven bowling and something to do with Hawk, Dove and I want to say a female cyborg villian.

[Sanlear]

That's exactly what has happened. Secret Invasion's ending is just set-up for the next thing. Agreed. I'm really suffering from event fatigue with Marvel. I just can't seem to get interested anymore.

[4PointOh]

Matt Idelson should also be involved. He's doing interviews for SUPERMAN. He also edits WONDER WOMAN. So what's the deal?

[Michael P]

As for shock-value marketing stunt, I think that's very cynical. How is it any different from any other big change. Was the Dark Phoenix Saga a shock-value marketing stunt?

No. It also didn't tie up dozens of books in storytelling cul-de-sacs for months at a time, meander around with no real point for most of that time, feel like a series of splash pages connected by tepid filler and designed primarily to fuel the marketing hype engine, or have an out-of-nowhere ending that served only to set up the next year's plate of refried beans.

As a matter of fact, those are all kinda related to *why* it wasn't a shock-value marketing stunt.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.


I enjoyed Civil War and Secret Invasion, so did lots of other people.

Many people enjoyed THE DA VINCI CODE. Some people also like drinking pee.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Firstly, it's not the same shit. One is an event, one is the post-event.
No, it's one event spinning out of another.


Second, launches of new titles based around the core lame concept which are things like the awesome Agents of Atlas or Secret Warriors written by the awesome Jonathan Hickman? Oh no, how terrible. Books struggle to get a footing in the marketplace these days, what's so terrible about giving them a little help? This thread has gone from moaning about Wonder Woman and other small titles not being supported to moaning about small titles getting a push!
The track records for books coming out of a "big event" surviving is pretty awful. Better to just put out good books and not tie them to stupid events.


As for shock-value marketing stunt, I think that's very cynical. How is it any different from any other big change. Was the Dark Phoenix Saga a shock-value marketing stunt?
The Phoenix storyline in X-MEN back in the day was a self-contained storyline. It didn't spill over into any books. It wasn't marketed at all, really.

The other difference was that it was actually well-written and made sense, as opposed to things like CIVIL WAR, SECRET INVASION, WORLD WAR HULK, etc.


And on your final point, I'd argue that Cap has got even better since the post-CW changes, or as you'd call it the fucking up of the status quo.
Cap was good before, it's stayed good, due to Brubaker being a good writer. All it shows is that a really good writer can sometimes pull out something really good even when given crap to work with. The Spider books, the Avengers books and various others, on the other hand, have gotten tangibly worse due to the impact of various crossovers and events.

[Charles RB]

Saw the House To Astonish podcast say SI is worse than Civil War because that, at least, had a beginning, middle and end, and did what it was meant to do (have a fight between superheroes).

Secret Invasion stopped being secret in #1, the Embrace Change stuff was irrelevant to the story, and there's no real ending outside of "and now buy this!".

[Weetomuncher]

I often find comics that are considered "side street" titles that are only loosely connected to the mainstream titles can often feature more interesting and creative stories because the characters and writers aren't as restricted as the better known characters tend to be due to past stories and history.

Writers like Gail were able to change many of the characters in titles like Birds Of Prey because the book had been in the doldrums after the TV show crashed. DC had nothing to lose letting Gail alter the characters and style of the book as the worse thing that could have happened was the cancellation of a book that had been falling to earth before she arrived.

Thankfully Gail's run was a massive success and brought Oracle, Black Canary and Huntress back into the big league.

This contrasts with the lack of freedom most writers have on the more popular titles as they generally are seen only as caretakers for the comic and they often have to adhere to the styles and characters featured in previous issues as editors and management tend to frown at change on successful titles even if the ideas are likely to bring further success to the title.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Saw the House To Astonish podcast say SI is worse than Civil War because that, at least, had a beginning, middle and end, and did what it was meant to do (have a fight between superheroes).

Secret Invasion stopped being secret in #1, the Embrace Change stuff was irrelevant to the story, and there's no real ending outside of "and now buy this!".


Eh, I'm not sure I really buy that line of criticism.

CW didn't really have an ending, either. Sure, the last issue of the book came out, but the story spun into multiple Avengers books and CAPTAIN AMERICA and elsewhere.

I think both did what they were meant to do - sell books for Marvel. The fact that they did so with a crappy story is equally true for both.

I will agree the "embrace change" stuff was more annoying than the CW hype, but let's be honest, the *story* was irrelevant to the story in CW. From what little of it I bothered looking at, it was like Michael described earlier, mostly a bunch of big splash pages littered with superfolk, and some filler meant to connect the big splash pages.

The art was uglier in SI, too.

[stealthwise]

Many people enjoyed THE DA VINCI CODE. Some people also like drinking pee.

Because it's sterile and I like the taste!

[Charles RB]

Eh, I'm not sure I really buy that line of criticism.

CW didn't really have an ending, either

Captain America surrenders, leaving Iron Man and the Registration the winner. That's definately an ending to the conflict.

Secret Invasion, by comparison, has Norman Osborn kill other people's enemy when he's not done much in the main series until #7 and be made a war hero for stuff in a different title.


From what little of it I bothered looking at, it was like Michael described earlier, mostly a bunch of big splash pages littered with superfolk, and some filler meant to connect the big splash pages.

True. It's a Millar comic. :frown:

[NickThompson]

No, it's one event spinning out of another.

No, it's the same event. It's just that they have a name for the spinning out. House of M had Decimation, Civil War had the Initative, WWH had Aftersmash, SI has Dark Reign.


The track records for books coming out of a "big event" surviving is pretty awful. Better to just put out good books and not tie them to stupid events.
The track records for books not coming out of a big event is pretty awful too, bringing them out of an event gives them extra sales at first so in theory gives it more chance to survive.



The Phoenix storyline in X-MEN back in the day was a self-contained storyline. It didn't spill over into any books. It wasn't marketed at all, really. So marketing dictates to you wether something is shock-value marketing stunt? If it's big marketing it's a stunt, if it's not it's not?


The other difference was that it was actually well-written and made sense, as opposed to things like CIVIL WAR, SECRET INVASION, WORLD WAR HULK, etc.

Opinion.


Cap was good before, it's stayed good, due to Brubaker being a good writer. All it shows is that a really good writer can sometimes pull out something really good even when given crap to work with. The Spider books, the Avengers books and various others, on the other hand, have gotten tangibly worse due to the impact of various crossovers and events.
I think New Avengers improved post-SI.

Also, you don't know how much of the changes were masterminded by the writers of the affected books. Furthermore, as far as I can tell most tie-ins to events are done by choice, since tie-ins equal a sales bump.

[Charles RB]

No, it's the same event. It's just that they have a name for the spinning out. House of M had Decimation

But they weren't the same event. House Of M was about an alternate universe, Decimation was about almost every mutant on Earth no longer being a mutant.


Civil War had the Initative

The Initiative wasn't an event though, it was a banner slapped onto comics dealing with the new status quo.


WWH had Aftersmash

I'll give you that one.


SI has Dark Reign.

Secret Invasion is about alien invasion. Dark Reign is about Norman Osborn as the new Iron Man. That's not the same event, that's a different one.


So marketing dictates to you wether something is shock-value marketing stunt? If it's big marketing it's a stunt, if it's not it's not?


Furthermore, as far as I can tell most tie-ins to events are done by choice

I don't recall that being true. I know (as the writers have said this) the tie-ins on Hitman years ago and Blue Beetle recently were done because the editors pushed for them.

[Bob Violence]

Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.

I enjoyed Civil War and Secret Invasion, so did lots of other people.
And you are all horribly WRONG!!!
:biggrin:
I'm just saying the constant stream of Events is wearing. I can get onboard a big event once in a while & I'm enjoying Final Crisis, I can't afford to by all the tie-ins, even though there aren't that many of them.
But the Big Events aren't coming along 'once in a while' there are Events going on constantly, at both companies, to the point where there is no status quo anymore.

[Charles RB]

When it comes to overlong epics, I admire Judge Dredd: City Of The Damned.

The writers just went "this has gone on too long, we're bored" and suddenly ended it.

[JeffreyWKramer]

No, it's the same event. It's just that they have a name for the spinning out. House of M had Decimation, Civil War had the Initative, WWH had Aftersmash, SI has Dark Reign.
To an extent, you're right, because most of Marvel is one ongoing idiotic event these days, but mostly you're just wrong, and not just because you think SECRET INVASION is even a third as brilliant as a wall painting done by a blind, retarded four-year-old smearing feces on a wall. No, you're also wrong because the previous chapter in the feces-fest was about a big, stupid alien invasion, and this one is about the people of earth being retarded enough to accept a man known to be a murderous lunatic as the savior of humanity.

I guess one could posit that Dark Reign is intended as a sort of commentary on the people that voted for a second Bush term, but I don't think Marvel editorial is quite as clever as that.


The track records for books not coming out of a big event is pretty awful too, bringing them out of an event gives them extra sales at first so in theory gives it more chance to survive.
A) it doesn't work, in part because B) the result is more often than not shitty books that are going to be completely incomprehensible by future readers because they're connected to some idiotic bit of here-today-gone-tomorrow continuity wankery. Also, C) it reduces these new comics to roughly the status as novelty Slurpee cups and Happy Meal toys, i.e., tie-ins to some big marketing blitz.


So marketing dictates to you wether something is shock-value marketing stunt?
If there isn't any sort of marketing done, then obviously we're not talking about a marketing stunt, shock-value or otherwise. Is that really hard to grasp?

Aside from that, "Dark Phoenix" wasn't done just for shock value. That story created a status quo that redefined a major comic for a long time.


Opinion.
Please don't go with the retarded "everything is an opinion, and all opinions are right." Someone somewhere out there is probably of the opinion that the sounds of a cat hacking up hairballs is every bit as as beautiful and profound as Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, but they're wrong (and probably also either stupid or psychotic).


I think New Avengers improved post-SI.
That's sort of like saying Turd A is tastier than Turd B.


Also, you don't know how much of the changes were masterminded by the writers of the affected books.
Well, here's what we do know:
a) it's a big editorially-mandated storyline;
b) some writers, including JMS, have publically complained about having their work derailed by these stupid events;
c) they didn't even have an ending to CIVIL WAR until Joss Whedon - who didn't write any of the CIVIL WAR books -tossed out the idea at a big gig for the writers of that atrocity.


Furthermore, as far as I can tell most tie-ins to events are done by choice, since tie-ins equal a sales bump.
Definitely not true in the case of JMS doing AMAZING SPIDER-MAN during CIVIL WAR. Also, the choice of "write what we tell you or you're fired and we'll get some other writer to write what they tell him" isn't exactly the world's greatest choice.

[TROUBLEZ]

What's the Sinestro War template?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

What's the Sinestro War template?

A clusterfuck of tossing every villain you can think of into a story-arc that was supposed to be "Sinestro's Corps vs the Green Lantern Corps". Its like they were sitting there going "OHHH TOSS SUPERBOY-PRIME IN !! TOSS CYBORG SUPERMAN !! AND THROW MANHUNTERS IN TOO!!"

The best arc in Green Lantern has gotta be the Secret Origin arc which just said , "Its about Hal Jordan 90% of the time and these great sci-fi elements."

But thats going out the window so Johns can again...so he can do another mega clusterfuck storyline.

[TROUBLEZ]

I really didn't like Secret Origins. 6 issues to retell Hal Jordan's origin, and repeat some of the same dialogue and story from the back up in Sinestro Corps Special #1. I bought an issue of this and threw in the towel. Too decompressed.

Sinestro Corps was a really cool idea but I only bought three issues of it. I bought the Special #1, the second part in Green Lantern, and the Kyle Rayner Parallax issue. After that I just gave up because:
1) I thought Van Sciver was drawing the whole series, but no, only one issue (however, after reading his childish comments here I don't think I will ever buy anything drawn by him)
2) It ran through too many issues. If I can buy an epic hardcover novel for $20, why am I gonna buy 21 issues, at 2.99 a pop, that tells ONE story?

[TROUBLEZ]

I hope Secret Six gets some better looking covers. They're pretty generic.

[Constantine Drakon]

I've said before that WONDER WOMAN, and this HUGE storyline in particular, is getting a raw deal. Superman, Batman and Green Lantern, with New Krypton, RIP and Blackest Night respectively, are getting TONS of attention. Rise of the Olympian is getting such little attention (from DC itself) that it's a bit unsettling--particularly if they want this to be a success.


To be fair, that's not surprising.

Look at it like this:

Superman's "currentish" Big Events?
1. Zod (one of his best known villains) breaks out of the Phantom Zone and conquers earth with an ARMY of Kryptonians.
2. Brainiac (the man that killed Krypton, and another of his biggest villains) comes to earth, causes the death of Pa Kent and releases ANOTHER army of Kryptonians, and
3. An Army of Kryptonians menace the entire globe and run roughshod over anyone that gets in their way, beating Doomsday to death in a matter of seconds. It's all-out war between the Kryptonians and the U.S. Military (with Lex Luthor assisting) and other superheroes, with Superman and Supergirl caught in the middle.

Green Lantern's "currentish" Big Events?
1. Sinestro assembles a cosmos-spanning army of villains that include The Anti-monitor, Parallax, Hank Henshaw/Cyborg Superman, and the Manhunters, and sets them loose on earth, where they kick considerable ass. Prophecies are flung around like mad, planet fights planet, and we're promised that things are only going to get bigger.
2. New armies slowly gather, with war on the horizon. And this summer, the dead will rise and be granted phenomenal power to fight the living.

Batman's currentish events?
Well he's apparently going to "die" and get replaced. That's pretty big.

While Diana's currentish events... Wonder Woman couldn't figure out who she was, some disappointingly unimpressive superNazis attacked her island home, and her Big New Villain kicks things off by destroying... a mall.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/ConstantineDrakon/muchtoosmall.jpg

Before this thing is over, I pray the world finds itself in serious jeopardy that only Wonder Woman can save it from.

If her "big event" is eclipsed by the other superevents, by several orders of magnitude, then it's hardly surprising that it doesn't get respect or more advertising.

I love you Gail, but your stuff so far has not been as BIG as what Diana's peers are facing.

[TROUBLEZ]

The Nazi storyline could have been cool. I always imagined Captain Nazi to be like Kid Miracleman, so I was expecting a really cool fight. Instead, human Diana pushes him through a wall, and Wonder Woman lassos him and that's it.

So with the leader of the nazi's gone, it reduced the threat of the army, and on top of that, they weren't even real soldiers.

I was really disappointed with that storyline, and then the Dodsons left and the last two covers didn't even credit the fill-in pages artists, so I got suckered on that.
I need to make sure I always flip through the comic before buying it.

The "Doomsday" villain for Wonder Woman didn't sound like such a good idea in the first place. Genocide, on the surface, looks and sounds like a run-of-the-mill Youngblood villain.

It's not so much to me, that Wonder Woman needs some lame, never ending mega event like Batman RIP, because I avoid all that junk (Final Crisis, New Krypton, Secret Invasion).

I also didn't like that WW and Nemesis moving so fast. I like how Nemesis was condescending to Agent Prince, but gushed about Wonder Woman and had this heroworship going on. He even bought the action figure. It was a fun and funny dynamic. Is that gone, because one issue had WW giving him some kind of greek promise ring or something, and in another she's already introducing him to her mother.

[BnL]

You're heavily downplaying the Rise of the Olympian event to make your point though.

The Secret Society of Supervillains created a creature specifically designed to kill Wonder Woman, but it's taken on god-like power and has gone beyond their control, and will soon lay waste to the entire Justice League. Meanwhile, the Greek Gods have returned and have deemed Wonder Woman and the Amazons failures, so they will create a new race as their champions to replace them. Gail has said this storyline will change the current status quo for Wonder Woman.

That's at LEAST on the same scale as the New Krypton and RIP events.

[Constantine Drakon]

You're heavily downplaying the Rise of the Olympian event to make your point though.

Elsewhere, I assure you, I've heavily played it up to try to spark interest. I'm a fan of both Simone and wonder Woman.

This is a thread asking why things may not be going so well, so I'm being less optimistic and more brutally honest. While I have hopes for the rest of the storyline, the solicits make it sound like the only people in danger are Diana, her friends, and maybe the Department of Metahuman Affairs. It does not sound like "world in the balance" stuff.




The Secret Society of Supervillains created a creature specifically designed to kill Wonder Woman, but it's taken on god-like power and has gone beyond their control, and will soon lay waste to the entire Justice League.

But again, how much of a threat is it going to be compared to an army of the dead risen from their graves across all of creation and given the most powerful weapons in existence? Or the combined forces of the Sinestro Corps during the Sinestro Corps War?

Genocide can endanger the Justice League?

So can a dozen Kryptonians.

There are roughly 100,000 Kryptonians in Kandor, with a war on the horizon between them and all of humanity.





Meanwhile, the Greek Gods have returned and have deemed Wonder Woman and the Amazons failures, so they will create a new race as their champions to replace them.

Which means they're dangers to Wonder Woman and the Amazons. Not to the planet.

She's getting less promotion than other books, but the stakes are just plain HIGHER in other books, and the stories (as advertised) just look more Epic in scale.

It may end up being a solid Wondy tale, it may undo a lot of damage, it may be a story I enjoy. But it does not look like a story that will convince people that Diana operates on the same level as Superman or Green Lantern. I hope I'm wrong.

[Constantine Drakon]

The Nazi storyline could have been cool. I always imagined Captain Nazi to be like Kid Miracleman, so I was expecting a really cool fight. Instead, human Diana pushes him through a wall, and Wonder Woman lassos him and that's it.

Indeed.

When Simone was talking in interview she said

"GS: Well, right off the bat, she faces an army of Captain Nazis"

I was thrilled, but in the end I think there was a missing apostrophe.

It wasn't "an army of Captain Nazis" it was "an army of Captain Nazi's". And Captain Nazi gathered himself a pretty sorry army, I'm afraid (this is sounding negative, and I loved the story for other reasons, but I think Simone is having some trouble operating on the scale that Wonder Woman needs if she's to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with her peers).

[BnL]

This is a thread asking why things may not be going so well, so I'm being less optimistic and more brutally honest. While I have hopes for the rest of the storyline, the solicits make it sound like the only people in danger are Diana, her friends, and maybe the Department of Metahuman Affairs. It does not sound like "world in the balance" stuff.


That goes back to the problem we were discussing, though: advertising. DC is not really doing it's job in selling this event the way they're doing for other storylines happening right now. It gets a token mention now and then, usually with the silly and dismissive "manazon" joke.



But again, how much of a threat is it going to be compared to an army of the dead risen from their graves across all of creation and given the most powerful weapons in existence? Or the combined forces of the Sinestro Corps during the Sinestro Corps War?

Genocide can endanger the Justice League?

So can a dozen Kryptonians.

There are roughly 100,000 Kryptonians in Kandor, with a war on the horizon between them and all of humanity.


The Green Lantern stuff is on a larger scale, but I really don't think that New Krypton is any "bigger" in scale than Rise of the Olympian. Big stuff is happening, it's just not being promoted the way New Krypton is.


Which means they're dangers to Wonder Woman and the Amazons. Not to the planet.

She's getting less promotion than other books, but the stakes are just plain HIGHER in other books, and the stories (as advertised) just look more Epic in scale.

It may end up being a solid Wondy tale, it may undo a lot of damage, it may be a story I enjoy. But it does not look like a story that will convince people that Diana operates on the same level as Superman or Green Lantern. I hope I'm wrong.


I notice you didn't mention RIP. That wasn't a world-in-peril epic story, it affected only Batman and associated characters, but it was promoted heavily anyway. It was an event storyline, with promises to change the status quo for Batman, same as Rise of the Olympian will for Wonder Woman.

She's been made top priority by the Secret Society of Supervillains who have unleashed a god to kill her. The villain didn't make the strongest debut, in my opinion, I'll agree with you there. But it's the first issue, and previews show it decimating the Justice League, and the creature's purpose is to enact genocide. I'm pretty sure in the coming issues, we're going to see how Genocide is a threat to the world's survival.

So it's more large-scale than RIP, and on an equal level as New Krypton (though none match the scale of Blackest Night). And yet, those storylines are getting heavy promotion, and Rise of the Olympian is not.

[Charles RB]

This last page has left me wondering why the Superman writers are obsessed with armies of Kryptonians.

Also that the Kryptonians sound like dicks. I'm glad their world blew up.

[stealthwise]

c) they didn't even have an ending to CIVIL WAR until Joss Whedon - who didn't write any of the CIVIL WAR books -tossed out the idea at a big gig for the writers of that atrocity.


SIDENOTE: Is it just me, or does Whedon have a bad track record for ending things? I mean, I haven't seen most of Buffy or Angel, but what I have seen of his writing has always left me underwhelmed, for the most part. He seems to focus too much on someone dying or suffering, often at random.

I'm thinking mostly of Firefly and Dr. Horrible, without getting into spoiler territory. And the Civil War ending mentioned here... yuck.

[Charles RB]

The random deaths in Firefly/Serenity had a deliberate point to it, however, which tied to the story; and looking at Dr Horrible (which I haven't seen all of yet but now the plot of), the death is part of the point of the ending and story - he gets what he was trying to get but it's left meaningless because of what he lost trying to get it.

[Constantine Drakon]

That goes back to the problem we were discussing, though: advertising. DC is not really doing it's job in selling this event the way they're doing for other storylines happening right now. It gets a token mention now and then, usually with the silly and dismissive "manazon" joke.

Agreed, Didio has done a very shoddy job with WW, and needs a good kick up the arse for practically sabotaging it with his "Manazon" shit. However, I do think that part of why it gets no respect from him is a matter of it not being on the same scale as some other superhero events going on.






I notice you didn't mention RIP. That wasn't a world-in-peril epic story, it affected only Batman and associated characters, but it was promoted heavily anyway. It was an event storyline, with promises to change the status quo for Batman, same as Rise of the Olympian will for Wonder Woman.

Batman does not (despite what some fanboys may claim) have superpowers. If Wonder Woman truly is in the same league as Superman (not quite as strong, but with fighting ability to narrow the gap, or so we've been told) then she should be facing threats that reflect that.

Batman, as a mere mortal "street level" hero, is working on a different scale. That said, his current villain is supposedly the greatest crimelord on the planet, the "king of crime", and possibly The Devil himself (just a theory being thrown around, but one of the more popular ones, and it would fit with the things Grant has been saying in interviews). He's faced a collection of criminal kingpins from around the world, and apparently something horrible happens that makes Bruce stop being Batman, possibly at the hands of Darkseid.

And ultimately , Batman is apparently "dying" and being replaced, with several big writers adding their own stories for the event. If the same was happening to Wonder Woman, I suspect she would be getting more attention than she is.

But she's not dying, and she does not appear to be saving the world from a threat only she could stop, going from the previews. As I said, I sure hope she does, and it certainly makes sense given the villain's name and supposed occupation, but that isn't the way things are sounding right now.


So it's more large-scale than RIP

And Batman does not have Superpowers.


and on an equal level as New Krypton

I wish I thought that was the case, but as I said - Genocide might be able to beat the JLA. So can a dozen Kryptonians. There's 100,000 of the damn things in New Krypton, and Metallo, and Doomsday, and Brainiac, and Luthor, and a bunch of other villains, and all out war on the horizon between the world's heroes and the city of Kandor.

[kingdom2000]

Besides a little unknown writer named "Grant Morrison" changes the scale of the story. Might have heard of him, an up and comer I hear that DC is heavily invested in. Then there was this little indie move called The Dark Knight that came out. I hear people liked it. It might big buck once more people hear about it. That may be why Batman RIP got the promotion it got.

She reminds me of Busick. Great at characterization and telling interesting stories but truly epic storylines is beyond her current skillset. A WW run is good for working those less used storytelling muscles.

We all like Gail, but she isn't in the Morrison realm just yet. She has the name recognition to carry a title now in the 30k plus range but until she can successfully launch a title in the 80-100k range she isn't going to get the automatic heavy promotion that Morrison, Lee and Johns get.

[stealthwise]

The random deaths in Firefly/Serenity had a deliberate point to it, however, which tied to the story; and looking at Dr Horrible (which I haven't seen all of yet but now the plot of), the death is part of the point of the ending and story - he gets what he was trying to get but it's left meaningless because of what he lost trying to get it.

Explain to me how Wash's death made sense.

[Michael P]

Explain to me how Wash's death made sense.

"You know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed."

[Charles RB]

Indeed.

Also, and this has been directly stated by Whedon, the idea is to make it clear - this is bad stuff. There is no guarantee that anyone walks away. If they were doing the last stand scene without someone having just been killed, it doesn't work as well, each injury is just an injury and you know they'll be fine cos they're the leads. After Wash's death, every bad injury is potential death. Simon and Kaylee might be fragged! Zoe could fall! River might not come back! Mal might bleed out!

EDIT: Similarly, Wesley and Gunn in Angel S5 - taking on the Black Thorn is supposed to be horrendously dangerous, a defiant stand against great powers, something so bad every character has to tie up their loose ends. If you're going to do that and nobody is either killed or messed up... well, what was Angel fretting about? They've faced worse.

[Corrina]

SIDENOTE: Is it just me, or does Whedon have a bad track record for ending things? I mean, I haven't seen most of Buffy or Angel, but what I have seen of his writing has always left me underwhelmed, for the most part. He seems to focus too much on someone dying or suffering, often at random.

I'm thinking mostly of Firefly and Dr. Horrible, without getting into spoiler territory. And the Civil War ending mentioned here... yuck.

The Buffy finale was a good series finale, though not really a good ending to a subpar season seven. But the finale hit all the notes and themes that had been present throughout the series.

I liked the Angel finale, though again, that least season was subpar.

Lately, though, yes, it's been of the 'people have to die' fate.

[Corrina]

She reminds me of Busick. Great at characterization and telling interesting stories but truly epic storylines is beyond her current skillset. A WW run is good for working those less used storytelling muscles.



Have you read Welcome to Temptation? Because that was full of epic storylines.

[stealthwise]

Lately, though, yes, it's been of the 'people have to die' fate.

That's basically my issue. You don't have to kill off anyone to have an effective ending.

The end of Whedon's Runaways arc wasn't filled with that, but it also had a similar notion that there's always some sort of loss, or ache, that can't be filled, by the end of each story. He seems to prefer what I understand as the "Greek tragedy" endings; he likes to write about loss and suffering as predominant to a hero's journey.

I don't tend to agree, I think that you can at least occasionally have some sort of ending that's not bittersweet. God forbid Whedon write a Superman story. We'd probably end up with Jimmy Olsen dead of kryptonite poisoning or something.

[stealthwise]

Indeed.

Also, and this has been directly stated by Whedon, the idea is to make it clear - this is bad stuff. There is no guarantee that anyone walks away. If they were doing the last stand scene without someone having just been killed, it doesn't work as well, each injury is just an injury and you know they'll be fine cos they're the leads. After Wash's death, every bad injury is potential death. Simon and Kaylee might be fragged! Zoe could fall! River might not come back! Mal might bleed out!


Which lasted all of the last 15 minutes of the movie.

It seemed rushed, and out of nowhere, and yes, death in real life can be like that, but this seemed to be a case of "this is the end for these characters, so screw it, let's just toss this out there." I'm not a huge fan of never-ending characters that can never get hurt or die, but the payoff didn't seem to equal the cost to the story.

[Corrina]

That's basically my issue. You don't have to kill off anyone to have an effective ending.

I don't tend to agree, I think that you can at least occasionally have some sort of ending that's not bittersweet. God forbid Whedon write a Superman story. We'd probably end up with Jimmy Olsen dead of kryptonite poisoning or something.

I've been watching Mad Men, Season One. Now, different genre. But what is amazing is how much conflict they wrench out of interpersonal relationships and situations---and they don't usually require a death to get that intense emotion. There are cases in which a death is called for (I think there's one in season one, which makes perfect sense) but mostly, it's about how screwed up people can get in their ordinary lives.

I'd like to see more of that subtle writing in superhero stories. But maybe I'm the only one, given the discussion of how Gail's WW arcs aren't epic enough. I thought the whole Circle arc was appropriately epic and added to the mythology and I though pairing up WW with Claw & Beowulf in a hell dimension to fight over her soul also was a pretty intense storyline.

I think it takes a better writer to pull off subtle. Sure, anyone can think of a thousand Kryptonians taking over the world. But sending WW to a hell dimension where she has to rely on new allies and then take down the devil himself in the middle of the DC mall? That was new to me.

Whedon isn't the only one who reaches for the obvious, lately. Or maybe Mad Men is showing me what's been missing.

[Charles RB]

Which lasted all of the last 15 minutes of the movie.

Which was the final stand the rest of the movie had been leading to.

Hence the need for it to not have the audience feeling "safe". And it worked.



I'd like to see more of that subtle writing in superhero stories.

I dunno how much subtlety you can get out of the genre on a regular basis - in generally, they're characters with fantastic powers who constantly get into (indeed, seek out) physical conflicts and extreme situations.

[Corrina]

I do think it's possible to go more subtle than Superboy-Emo Prime and Pantha's head being knocked off and such.

[Charles RB]

I do think it's possible to go more subtle than Superboy-Emo Prime and Pantha's head being knocked off and such.

Fair point.

[JeffreyWKramer]

SIDENOTE: Is it just me, or does Whedon have a bad track record for ending things?

He's sort of mixed. Most of the BUFFY season-enders were good, and both BUFFY and ANGEL ended well as series. His ASTONISHING X arcs ended a bit more "eh" as he progressed, and I have to admit I was sort of underwhelmed by the end of his RUNAWAYS story, but that might also have to do with it having been badly off schedule for several months.

CIVIL WAR's ending was bad, but then so was the rest, so I don't know whether one really can pin that on Whedon or whether it was just bound to be sorta lame given what had gone before.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Explain to me how Wash's death made sense.

It makes as much sense as do most violent, war-related deaths.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I do think it's possible to go more subtle than Superboy-Emo Prime and Pantha's head being knocked off and such.

SOUTH PARK is more subtle than Superboy-Emo. So are the Three Stooges.

[Charles RB]

I have to admit I was sort of underwhelmed by the end of his RUNAWAYS story, but that might also have to do with it having been badly off schedule for several months.

I actually didn't get the fifth issue until after the sixth, which didn't help me much!

The sixth read better when I'd seen the fifth - Nico's uncharacteristically sadistic approach to Gert's parents ("ha ha, I want you to suffer knowing you can't stop your daughter dying or change at all!") makes more sense after she's clearly had something done to her by her ancestor to amp her powers. Which is unlikely to be followed up by Terry Moore, but ah well...

[JeffreyWKramer]

I actually didn't get the fifth issue until after the sixth, which didn't help me much!

The sixth read better when I'd seen the fifth - Nico's uncharacteristically sadistic approach to Gert's parents ("ha ha, I want you to suffer knowing you can't stop your daughter dying or change at all!") makes more sense after she's clearly had something done to her by her ancestor to amp her powers. Which is unlikely to be followed up by Terry Moore, but ah well...

That's sort of funny. Actually, at one point I thought I'd missed an issue, but it just turned out that the span between issues was so long that I'd forgotten what had happened in the previous issue.

So far Moore's RUNAWAYS is sorta underwhelming. Not bad, but not really hitting the mark, either, at least not for me. I'll probably give it one or two more issues and if it isn't substantially better by then, that'll be yet another title down.

[Evan Waters]

A clusterfuck of tossing every villain you can think of into a story-arc that was supposed to be "Sinestro's Corps vs the Green Lantern Corps". Its like they were sitting there going "OHHH TOSS SUPERBOY-PRIME IN !! TOSS CYBORG SUPERMAN !! AND THROW MANHUNTERS IN TOO!!"

Hey, don't knock what works.

[Charles RB]

So far Moore's RUNAWAYS is sorta underwhelming. Not bad, but not really hitting the mark, either, at least not for me. I'll probably give it one or two more issues and if it isn't substantially better by then, that'll be yet another title down.

Might be the same for me.

Also Doktor Sleepless - I'm iffy on it. It took a while to get really going, and I'm worried it might slow down again.

[Michael P]

That's basically my issue. You don't have to kill off anyone to have an effective ending.

At the same time, doing it doesn't ruin an ending, either. It all depends on whether or not the death serves the story.

As you said, Whedon likes telling stories that are well-served by death. There's nothing wrong with not liking that, but there's nothing wrong with doing it, either. And the stories Whedon has told so far that ended with or included death as part of the denouement have been pretty good ones, which is what makes all the difference.

[stealthwise]

My biggest problem with Wash's death is that it worked the first time I saw the movie, but doesn't feel like it holds up over time. It's the equivalent of someone slipping on a banana peel, or that scene in Saving Private Ryan where the guy gets a bullet in his helmet, then takes it off to laugh off the fact that he nearly got killed... then gets hit in the head with a bullet.

Yes, war-related deaths are ugly, and random, and harsh, but it didn't really fit well with what we'd seen previously in Firefly, or even in the movie up to that point. Then we go from that to River shanking literally dozens of these supposedly unstoppable Reavers, and we're bouncing from "harsh reality" back to the fantastic again. I mean, look at her, she's got to weigh no more than 90 pounds and she's killing these ravenous, beast-like warriors. It doesn't really add up.

[stealthwise]

I've been watching Mad Men, Season One. Now, different genre. But what is amazing is how much conflict they wrench out of interpersonal relationships and situations---and they don't usually require a death to get that intense emotion. There are cases in which a death is called for (I think there's one in season one, which makes perfect sense) but mostly, it's about how screwed up people can get in their ordinary lives.

I'd like to see more of that subtle writing in superhero stories. But maybe I'm the only one, given the discussion of how Gail's WW arcs aren't epic enough. I thought the whole Circle arc was appropriately epic and added to the mythology and I though pairing up WW with Claw & Beowulf in a hell dimension to fight over her soul also was a pretty intense storyline.

I think it takes a better writer to pull off subtle. Sure, anyone can think of a thousand Kryptonians taking over the world. But sending WW to a hell dimension where she has to rely on new allies and then take down the devil himself in the middle of the DC mall? That was new to me.

Whedon isn't the only one who reaches for the obvious, lately. Or maybe Mad Men is showing me what's been missing.

That's a good point. I think part of what I didn't dig about Gail's WW arc was that... I had no idea where it was leading. It's a scary thought, but I didn't get a lot out of the story because DC didn't tell me that I was supposed to.

We're so programmed-for lack of a better word-that I had no idea if the story was leading somewhere "important" or not, and that kind of dulled my interest in what was going on. In retrospect, that story is a lot cooler than the majority of other stuff going on in DC titles, but it's been lost in a maelstrom of Final Crisis/RIP/New Krypton crapola now.

And Mad Men, what's I've seen of it, is pretty damn cool.

[Charles RB]

Yes, war-related deaths are ugly, and random, and harsh, but it didn't really fit well with what we'd seen previously in Firefly, or even in the movie up to that point.

Didn't it? You've got the absolutely random and decimating Reaver attack, the Operative systematically slaughtering whole colonies, and Shephard Book is gunned down off-screen.

[stealthwise]

Didn't it? You've got the absolutely random and decimating Reaver attack, the Operative systematically slaughtering whole colonies, and Shephard Book is gunned down off-screen.

Those are a ton different than being impaled by a piece of the ship. Like I said, might as well have slipped on a banana peel.

[Michael P]

Those are a ton different than being impaled by a piece of the ship. Like I said, might as well have slipped on a banana peel.

He wasn't. He was impaled by a Reaver harpoon.

[Charles RB]

As Michael says. The Reaver ship is firing more off after Wash is hit.

[stealthwise]

Seriously? It was never quite clear to me. That makes slightly more sense than what I saw, but it still feels like a throwaway death in the greater context.

[Corrina]

I don't read and pay attention to much of the crossover stuff.

But I thought WW taking on THE DEVIL while not fully in possession of her soul, lacking her weapon of truth, and having allies like Claw and Beowulf, was pretty damn epic.

Similarly, addressing the Amazons reaction to adding only a single child to their culture worked very well for me, too. It felt like it added depth to both Hippolyta and made the Amazons less of a homogeneous group.

But that could be just me.

[stealthwise]

I don't read and pay attention to much of the crossover stuff.

But I thought WW taking on THE DEVIL while not fully in possession of her soul, lacking her weapon of truth, and having allies like Claw and Beowulf, was pretty damn epic.

Similarly, addressing the Amazons reaction to adding only a single child to their culture worked very well for me, too. It felt like it added depth to both Hippolyta and made the Amazons less of a homogeneous group.

But that could be just me.

I don't follow it either, but... I don't know, the story didn't hit with me. None of the character's issues have. Ever. It's probably just me, but I don't find Wonder Woman all that interesting. I think she just works better in a group context, maybe.

[Charles RB]

Seriously? It was never quite clear to me.

Yeah, I had that problem the first time I saw it. I noticed on rewatching though, probably as I wasn't shocked by the death that time round.

[stealthwise]

Yeah, I had that problem the first time I saw it. I noticed on rewatching though, probably as I wasn't shocked by the death that time round.

My bad on that score. I've only seen the movie twice.

[Constantine Drakon]

But I thought WW taking on THE DEVIL while not fully in possession of her soul, lacking her weapon of truth, and having allies like Claw and Beowulf, was pretty damn epic.



A Devil, not
THE Devil.

Demons are a dime a dozen. There's nothing inherently impressive in beating one, it depends entirely on how well you establish them as threats.

This one, I thought, was established very well as a threat for a few issues, but nothing particularly big.

I love Gail's stuff, but I think she's used to writing books that are more "street level" in nature, and isn't as experienced at writing world-threatening menaces.

Her ending for the Villains United Special, with an army of villains marching on Metropolis, was, IMHO, the most "Epic" thing she's written so far (and the way the potential of that clash was squandered in ICk was despicable).

Wonder Woman is a different type of hero, with different levels of power. And right now some of the other heroes with that level of power are facing what appear to be far larger threats. And those are the books that are selling better than Wonder Woman is.

I think Gail can make Wonder Woman a serious contender in the DCU, and increase her fanbase considerably. But to do that she has to think BIG.

[AllisterH]

Who hasn't beaten a demon nowadays?

[Michael P]

Who hasn't beaten a demon nowadays?

Still, Diana's the only one I know of who's beaten one with her invisible jet.

[Lester C.]

Who hasn't beaten a demon nowadays?

Spider-man.


ten characters.

[Constantine Drakon]

Spider-man.



Low blow.

Low blow.

[Stanlos]

I've said before that WONDER WOMAN, and this HUGE storyline in particular, is getting a raw deal. Superman, Batman and Green Lantern, with New Krypton, RIP and Blackest Night respectively, are getting TONS of attention. Rise of the Olympian is getting such little attention (from DC itself) that it's a bit unsettling--particularly if they want this to be a success.

Gail's putting her all into this. A little PUBLIC corporate attention isn't too much to ask. Let's see a Newsarama or IGN article/interview.

Reminds me of 1991.

[AllisterH]

Maybe DC is doing it like Annihilation....Annihlation didn't get as much hype as Civil War but the consensus was that Annhiliation blew it out of the water and Marvel has now been quick to use it to give a boost to other characters...

DC has been burned on the two WW-focused megaevents, namely Amazon attacks and War of the Gods so perhaps they're hedging their bet....

[4PointOh]

Reminds me of 1991.

You wouldn't happen to be referring to this, would you?:

http://vu.morrissey-solo.com/moz/perez/index.htm

George Perez: I'd been wanting to do a Wonder Woman mini-series since I did New Teen Titans #11 where [the Titans] went to Paradise Island. I had an idea for a "trial of the gods"-type of story. But I was so busy, I never got around to it. You know, we were supposed to kill Superman at the end of Crisis, too. But DC backpedaled at the last moment, because they had no replacement. John Byrne [who later revamped Superman] wasn't part of the equation yet. They had no plans for Wonder Woman, either, but they didn't care; she simply wasn't as important on a corporate level.

After John Byrne's work on Superman and Frank Miller's on Batman, DC realized now they had to bring back Wonder Woman. I thought this could be interesting. Janice Race was slated to be the new editor, they had an artist they weren't happy with, and they weren't happy with the plot, even after three or four rewrites. It seemed as though Wonder Woman would again be the girl left out of the boys' club - a victim of indifference.

I went to Janice and said that if she gave me time to do some research, I would take a crack at drawing the book. I wanted a hand in the plotting, too. They gave me 10 months to work on it [and let me use] as much as I could of Greg Potter's original plot, which had things in it a lot of people disliked, particularly the women in the company.

The women on staff viewed Greg's original concepts as one in which Wonder Woman was either a victim of or an enemy to men, and they thought it was sending out a misogynist message. Many of them didn't like the idea that every Amazon was reincarnated from a murdered woman and carried the memories of that murder with them.

Greg downplayed the mythological elements more than I did; he had Wonder Woman already in Man's World by the end of Wonder Woman #1, but I [pushed it back] to #3. my goal was to use the mythological elements to make her more than just a female Superman and give her a much more humanist, if not feminist, slant.

In that time, Janice left and I got Karen Berger as editor... giving me exactly what I wanted - a woman editor and a good editor.

Karen didn't grow up a superhero fan, so a lot of this stuff she has learned as she went along. But she has always appreciated the written word. She doesn't think it's something that is part of everyone's DNA makeup - some people are writers and some people are not.

She knew I had co-plotted Titans and that I was making suggestions to Len Wein on the dialogue of Wonder Woman. She knew I had certain ideas about writing. Finally, with #17, Len left the book and I started to write it. It was a turning point for Wonder Woman as a character, so it seemed like a good time to make the change.

I wrote the first 10 pages twice, because Karen felt there were major flaws: a tendency to be wordy, a tendency for me as a writer to be fighting myself as an artist. I appreciated the fact that she wasn't intimidated by my favourite reputation: "you are the person doing Wonder Woman and the book is the most important thing," she said. And I became a better writer because of Karen Berger.

War of the Gods was supposed to be, in my mind, a celebration of Wonder Woman's 50th anniversary. That was the first thing DC wanted to discard. It was a time when DC had paid me advance money for the book, and I need the money. I wanted to [cancel the mini-series] desperately, but I couldn't. No body else wanted the book. And to top it all off, Karen Berger went into labor.

The editor was now an inexperienced person... I did the plot for War of the Gods a year before the first issue came out, and up until the first issue came out, I was getting calls from writers [of crossover books] who had never even heard about it. It was a cursed book.

[Constantine Drakon]

Good point with Annihilation/Amazons Attack.

Green Lantern's stuff is getting the push now, but Sinestro Corps actually got less of a push than Amazons Attack.

We're probably still feeling the after-effects from that.

[Stanlos]

You wouldn't happen to be referring to this, would you?:



That is it precisely. I remember being baffled about the lack of placement or blurbs prior to the actual WOTG crossover. I read the Comics Interview ish with George and was saddened to hear of the misogyny and intra company squabbling but also relieved to understand where the disconnect had happened. The WW people were under the impression that many great things would be done for her anniversary and they and fans alike were astonished by the . . . apathy.

[Stanlos]

Maybe DC is doing it like Annihilation....Annihlation didn't get as much hype as Civil War but the consensus was that Annhiliation blew it out of the water and Marvel has now been quick to use it to give a boost to other characters...

DC has been burned on the two WW-focused megaevents, namely Amazon attacks and War of the Gods so perhaps they're hedging their bet....

You should pick up the Masters series George Perez edition or issue 104 of Comcs Interview. There were some serious behind the scenes troubles that crippled WOTG. It was SHAMEFUL mismanagement and betrayal (strong word but from what I have read it fits).

The published Amazons Attack is BAFFLING in its design. It doesn't celebrate Wonder Woman, it doesn't celebrate her lore, it doesn't celebrate her world. It was like a rushed brain damaged inbred 5th cousin to the WIZARD suggestion for a reboot of WW nearly to the letter.

Had the AA! that was to stem from Rucka's Wonder Woman run been published instead I suspect that it would have been received much much much MUCH better. At the very least, it would have been worth the paper it was printed on, which the published product was very much not that.

[AllisterH]

Well, like I said, DC might do like Marvel and wait until after the event and see how it does and if successful, use it as a springboard for other WW-events.

I mean, Annihilation got little love from Marvel compared to Civil War, yet because of how well it was received and how well it did, Annihilation:Conquest and now War of Kings are being advertised more heavily.

Pre Annihilation, Marvel's Cosmic landscape had been ignored but now it gets much more love so if "rise of the Olympian" is good, we can hope for the same for WW.

It is exactly like Sinestro Corps war in that respect. SC got pretty much no big push from DC yet because of its success, DC has been quick to spin new events from it.

Contrast that with both WotG and AA!. Better for all concerned to ignore anything that pertained to it.

As an aside, Marvel is doing its own "Amazon Attacks" in Incredible Hercules. It is 100% better than what we got in DC which is just sad....The current Hercules is knocking it out of the park IMO with the Amazons yet the home of WW et al can't do better?

Shameful.