Azzarello's Joker...eh....

[igotshoe]

I didn't really care for this comic at all. Here's my review...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf0d4U36PZ0

[thedevilsadvocate]

Number one, it was supposed to be out of continuity. Of course this book was riding on the coattails of TDK and I had no problem with it. It was loosely based on the Nolanverse (I say loosely, it might not be but it had that realist aspect).

I agree with everything else especially the part about half the story being left out. Very true. There was not enough substance. Oh, and I especially agree with the part where you said that it seemed as though they were trying to make it the story of the year. All in all, it was empty calories IMHO.

Oh and it's Azzarello :wink:

[igotshoe]

Yeah the out of continuity thing didn't really bother me so much, I think what Brick was trying to say was why mess with a great aspect of the Joker in the first place? I don't know if that makes sense and maybe I should have him say something instead of me... but yeah I also saw in an old Wizard that Azzarello wasn't trying to copy the Ledger Joker... anyways, I'll give them all this, I still thought the story was off... What do you think of 100 bullets?

[DarKye]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with this review here. It didn't really do much for me.

But eh, some folks liked it, so I guess that's okay. The art was great though.

[Mia]

Number one, it was supposed to be out of continuity. Of course this book was riding on the coattails of TDK and I had no problem with it. It was loosely based on the Nolanverse (I say loosely, it might not be but it had that realist aspect).
:


The book had been in development long before the TDK went into production.
I never really found Ledger's Joker that scary to begin with. He just reminded me of smartass 15 year old boy on crack. The constant cackiling just got old after the first 10 minutes.

The Azzarello's Joker was more interesting. He was mean and sadisitic and took malevolant pleasure in being nasty. The scene where he rapes that woman is the most disturbing instances I have ever seen in a North American comic book.

I also found it interesting in how it looked at people's self hatred and their own inability to rise above who they are because of their own self hatred and cowardice. Really sad actually.

One thing I did enjoy was Azzarello's portrayal of Batman. It was very similar to the take he used in 'Superman: For Tommorow'. You get the feeling that Azzarello's Batman is not actually a very nice person. Which is why he is the most suited to go after criminals. He thinks like they do. The book was counched in reality in ways that Nolan never has achieved and proably never will.

[Vidocq]

Number one, it was supposed to be out of continuity. Of course this book was riding on the coattails of TDK and I had no problem with it. It was loosely based on the Nolanverse (I say loosely, it might not be but it had that realist aspect). :

The Scars on The Joker's face aren't based on the Nolanverse, they were based on the Black Dhalia Crime scene Photos.

[kentish]

I liked it. I thought it was some of the better writing by Azz in a while. 100 Bullets has seemed to flounder the last few years. The art was solid too, but I understand the style is not for everyone.

[igotshoe]

After reading that article in Wizard I can see where we messed up, however I still maintain it's not that great of a story, and although I'll take Azzarello at his word that he had this idea for the Joker long before TDK, I think there are some undeniable parallels between the two stories. And that being said, if you are going to release a book after the success of the film it's of course going to have people drawing that conclusion. The one panel I did enjoy by the way, was the one with the Joker crying... And yeah maybe I was harsh with one star since I did like the art.

[pressdarlings]

Guy on the right reminds me of Franklin from the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

[thedevilsadvocate]

The book had been in development long before the TDK went into production.
I never really found Ledger's Joker that scary to begin with. He just reminded me of smartass 15 year old boy on crack. The constant cackiling just got old after the first 10 minutes.

The Azzarello's Joker was more interesting. He was mean and sadisitic and took malevolant pleasure in being nasty. The scene where he rapes that woman is the most disturbing instances I have ever seen in a North American comic book.

I also found it interesting in how it looked at people's self hatred and their own inability to rise above who they are because of their own self hatred and cowardice. Really sad actually.

One thing I did enjoy was Azzarello's portrayal of Batman. It was very similar to the take he used in 'Superman: For Tommorow'. You get the feeling that Azzarello's Batman is not actually a very nice person. Which is why he is the most suited to go after criminals. He thinks like they do. The book was counched in reality in ways that Nolan never has achieved and proably never will.

I disagree. Azzarello's Joker was the 15 year old boy on crack. He barely said anything that struck a chord with me, he was hardly scary. Bang bang? Was I supposed to pee myself there? Overall I thought Azzarello's version was boring, lazy and unoriginal. The rape scene was hardly 'edgy' as it's always been debated if he ever raped Barbara and going by what Azzarello has written before, this was hardly 'edgy'. The only difference between that one and this book was that this one was confirmed rape and the other one played with it. It was a real yawner. I wouldn't say that it was OOC for the Joker but I thought it was a very lazy easy to make intimidating move on part of the writer. The rape was an obvious plot device to humanize Johnny, whom I found to be as welcome as a mosquito.

Nolan's Joker was fresh. It took all the best incarnations without watering him down. Yeah, it wasn't as 'scary/original' as Azzarello's Joker but at least the essence of the character was there. Threatening the mobster's with a grenade in his pocket was a riot, him breaking down Harvey's logic at the hosptial was chilling, the five way revenge-like plot was brilliant. Nolan's Joker has a skewed purpose whereas the novel Joker was just a wild animal. Worse of all, he was predictable. I respect your views, Mia, but I am gonna have to disagree. :cool:

[thedevilsadvocate]

The Scars on The Joker's face aren't based on the Nolanverse, they were based on the Black Dhalia Crime scene Photos.

I am perfectly aware of that.

[thedevilsadvocate]

After reading that article in Wizard I can see where we messed up, however I still maintain it's not that great of a story, and although I'll take Azzarello at his word that he had this idea for the Joker long before TDK, I think there are some undeniable parallels between the two stories. And that being said, if you are going to release a book after the success of the film it's of course going to have people drawing that conclusion. The one panel I did enjoy by the way, was the one with the Joker crying... And yeah maybe I was harsh with one star since I did like the art.

I had a feeling that would be it when I saw your vid.

I thought that scene was a very lame way to try and humanize Joker considering how he has treated Harley in the past and the book. He did not even ask for her at the end when he saw his penthouse broken into. Either way, it wasn't a convincing 'human' moment because he also broke down at the bar when Two Face wouldn't answer the phone, plus he was doing alot of blow. Instead of giving us a character with substance, it seems as though Azzarello kinda borrowed Grant Morrison's idea of a Joker who has no personality and gave it a more realistic aspect (i.e. the drugs). Lazy lazy lazy. :frown:

[igotshoe]

Well now you ruined the only part of the book I liked....

[smoothjokes]

I really liked this take on the Joker. He's sociopath serial killer. The scene that did it for me was when he broke into the old couples room, murdered them and laid on top of their dead bodies. It was really fitting of the character and his raging nature. I also liked how Azzarello used Jonny Frost as the narrator instead of the Joker, it just wouldn't of worked. Personally I'm a fan of this graphic novel. I felt it was a great take on the character and underworld of Gotham City.

[nepenthes]

oh yes this again

Azzarello announces he gonna write a different kinda story about the Joker. His own spin on a timeless and archetypal character who has taken many, MANY forms through out his vivid 70 year old history. He writes it to the best of his ability, and he hopes you will enjoy it. And what happens?

Certain fans don't like it, because it's a different kind of story. riiiiight. bravo. if you were my children I would beat you with a stick.

[Eric Henson]

I just got mine in the mail today. I haven't read it yet, but once I do I'll post my review!

[Mia]

I disagree. Azzarello's Joker was the 15 year old boy on crack. He barely said anything that struck a chord with me, he was hardly scary. Bang bang? Was I supposed to pee myself there? Overall I thought Azzarello's version was boring, lazy and unoriginal. The rape scene was hardly 'edgy' as it's always been debated if he ever raped Barbara and going by what Azzarello has written before, this was hardly 'edgy'. The only difference between that one and this book was that this one was confirmed rape and the other one played with it. It was a real yawner. I wouldn't say that it was OOC for the Joker but I thought it was a very lazy easy to make intimidating move on part of the writer. The rape was an obvious plot device to humanize Johnny, whom I found to be as welcome as a mosquito.


If you see rape as a 'yawner' then I really don't know how to respond to that.


Nolan's Joker was fresh. It took all the best incarnations without watering him down. Yeah, it wasn't as 'scary/original' as Azzarello's Joker but at least the essence of the character was there. Threatening the mobster's with a grenade in his pocket was a riot, him breaking down Harvey's logic at the hosptial was chilling, the five way revenge-like plot was brilliant. Nolan's Joker has a skewed purpose whereas the novel Joker was just a wild animal. Worse of all, he was predictable. I respect your views, Mia, but I am gonna have to disagree. :cool:

In general yes I agree that The Joker TDK was far closer to the original in the comic book. A prankster with a sick sense of humour. But I wasn't looking for a prankster with a sick sense of humour. I was looking for a sick, very mean man who was so savage and vicious. That you could really see why people were scared of him. I did not get that in TDK. I got that in the Azzarello's the Joker.

One of the main problems I had with the Joker in TDK was that he got away with his actions because everyone around him was just stupid. It all seemed contrived and it was one of the main reasons I bored and unimpressed with the film.

[Mia]

Certain fans don't like it, because it's a different kind of story. riiiiight. bravo. if you were my children I would beat you with a stick.

It's par for the course. And goes to show why I don't let anyone know I read comic books.

[thedevilsadvocate]

If you see rape as a 'yawner' then I really don't know how to respond to that.

I don't know how to respond to someone who acts like they never heard about rape. Just turn on your local news. It happens. It's nothing new. Pick up Watchmen. Rape isn't exactly a taboo in comics.



In general yes I agree that The Joker TDK was far closer to the original in the comic book. A prankster with a sick sense of humour. But I wasn't looking for a prankster with a sick sense of humour. I was looking for a sick, very mean man who was so savage and vicious. That you could really see why people were scared of him. I did not get that in TDK. I got that in the Azzarello's the Joker.

One of the main problems I had with the Joker in TDK was that he got away with his actions because everyone around him was just stupid. It all seemed contrived and it was one of the main reasons I bored and unimpressed with the film.

You don't have to have every detail explained and what exactly do you mean by Joker getting away with everything? He is a master at what he does and this does take place early in his career. It's not like everyone is trained at what he does because number one, he is a new breed of animal and number two, he is unconventional in his methods.

[Mia]

I don't know how to respond to someone who acts like they never heard about rape. Just turn on your local news. It happens. It's nothing new. Pick up Watchmen. Rape isn't exactly a taboo in comics. .

I never denied that I had never heard about rape. I certainly have and I find it horrible and sick. How someone can, such as yourself can find it a big 'yawn' is beyond me. But it takes all kinds to make the world go around.




You don't have to have every detail explained and what exactly do you mean by Joker getting away with everything?

I meant just what I posted. He got away with his actions because everyone around him was so stupid and incomptent.


He is a master at what he does and this does take place early in his career. It's not like everyone is trained at what he does because number one, he is a new breed of animal and number two, he is unconventional in his methods.


For a film that bills itself as a 'real' and 'gritty' crime drama. I find it hard to believe that that there were no criminally insane people priot to the Joker. I find it hard to believe there are no experts in Criminal Investigative Psychology for the police to confer with in studying him. I also find it hard to believe that the police would be that stupid in dealing with The Joker. That Dent (a seasoned district attorney) would play into The Jokers hands. And that a bunch of organised criminals would easily roll over for him like that. I also find it hard to believe that Batman would allow the Joker to get him angry. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Kiryu]

You don't have to have every detail explained and what exactly do you mean by Joker getting away with everything? He is a master at what he does and this does take place early in his career. It's not like everyone is trained at what he does because number one, he is a new breed of animal and number two, he is unconventional in his methods.

But you forgot number 3, in that everything Joker gets away with in TDK is either incompetence from the heroes or corrupted cops. That is what all TDK Joker's plots boil down to. "Oh, he did it cause the cops were corrupt". That or he has magic powers that let him get, not even a bomb, but just barrels of gasoline onto an evacuation ship without anyone noticing. Just poor writing. Similar to how after getting horrifically scarred, Harvey is able to bypass major mobster's body guards and do whatever the hell he pleases.

There is nothing masterful at all in what Joker does in TDK. He just goes on long long long exposition rants that bog down an otherwise solid performance and because Balebat is stupid or the cops are corrupt, he gets away with everything.

[40footwolf]

I liked it a bunch. I actually wouldn't mind if that became the permanent Gotham CIty, honestly.

[n2doop5u]

I liked it a bunch. I actually wouldn't mind if that became the permanent Gotham CIty, honestly.

Tis a bold statement sir.

[40footwolf]

It is.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with THIS Gotham City, I'm just saying if there was a sudden retcon and everything changed to be like in "Joker", I wouldn't mind even slightly.

I especially like the Croc and Riddler redesigns.

[Eric Henson]

Alright, I just finished reading it and it was okay I suppose. Let me start with the cons;

CONS:
- The main thing I didn't enjoy was the drastic level of realism. Please, don't get me wrong, I enjoy when comic worlds are grounded in reality to allow for plausability, but in this case it kind of drug the story down for me. I mean, in this depiction, you could have removed the red lips, green hair, & white skin and basically had any criminal fill the role for "a week in the life of mobster X". The Joker was a little less theatrical than I expected him to be in many ways and while that is on the side of reality it just isn't as interesting to read about in some cases. However, I do think that the gritty reality effect was the writer's entire intention. In that light, he was successful.

- The design of the Riddler; some love it, but I thought it was...pretty horrible (to put it gently). I mean, I'll admit at first, I thought Kid Rock had walked on panel, but then I saw I was mistaken. To the character designer's credit though; it pays to take a risk sometimes. That is how we have ended up with some of the most iconic & profound characters of the ages. This....however, just wasn't one of those times for me.

PROS:
- The art; obviously, someone spent a great deal of time on the art. Great job of enhancing the style of writing with the style of the art. Perfect fit.

- The design of Batman; Thought it was great.

[n2doop5u]

It is.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with THIS Gotham City, I'm just saying if there was a sudden retcon and everything changed to be like in "Joker", I wouldn't mind even slightly.

I especially like the Croc and Riddler redesigns.

I like this Gotham but I almost would rather see them tackle Nolanverse gotham. I just want to see Batman facing these bad guys, in a realistic sense, for his first time. The first encounter is always the most interesting to me especially if it's taking a character we know and reinventing him.

And yeah, Croc and Riddler were badass. I wouldn't mind seeing those incarnations in the nolanverse.

[Lester C.]

Do you guys think that Frost dies at the end of the story.

[Lester C.]

Do you guys think that Frost dies at the end of the story.

[Lester C.]

Do you guys think that Frost dies at the end of the story.

[Lester C.]

Do you guys think that Frost dies at the end of the story.

[Lester C.]

I can't see my post so I'm going to try this again. Do you guys think that Frost died as result of the injury he sustained in the final pages?

[Eric Henson]

Do you guys think that Frost dies at the end of the story.

I can't even remember what my conclusion was. I'll have to go back and read the last few pages again. Unfortunately, I can't right now because as soon as I finished reading it I gave to a friend to borrow. I'll let you know as soon as I take another look but if I recall I thought that the character was specifically dead.

[Lester C.]

Did anyone think that it was Lono underneath the Joker makeup?

[Elitehaxxor]

Quadruple post FTL

[Elitehaxxor]

quadruple post FTL

Yes I think he died.

[doctrinedee]

I think that in order to enjoy this book you need to take into account that it's non-canon. Nobody criticises an Elseworlds title for similar issues. That said, I wasn't particularly fond of the funky Riddler, either.

I did a slightly more positive review several months ago for my site/blog/thing:

Joker (Brian Azzarello) graphic novel review (http://www.holycr4p.com/index.php/Graphic-Novel-Reviews/joker-brian-azzarello-graphic-novel-review.html)

In retrospect, I was probably a little too hyped up over the book to be truly objective, ... Such is the nature of pop culture.

[Alan2099]

I think that in order to enjoy this book you need to take into account that it's non-canon. Nobody criticises an Elseworlds title for similar issues. That said, I wasn't particularly fond of the funky Riddler, either.
Fine.

I don't think it was a good elseworlds and I still didn't like their take on Joker.