View Full Version : What's wrong with Nightwing?
Nightwing, by concept and by characterization, is one of my all-time favorite heroes. I even like him more than Batman. But when I think about it, I can't think of a single Nightwing story I absolutely love, just small Nightwing moments here and there that make him cool.
It seems to me that he's one great writer away from being a really critical breakout. I think he could be the critical DC equivalent of Daredevil - he's got enough baggage to make him prestigious and iconic, but yet not enough "iconicity" in the name and costume that you can't screw around with him. And it seems that every time a writer shifts, his supporting cast changes.
Anyone else feel this way? Or, for a more fun question, what would YOU do as Nightwing editor? Whom would YOU hire, and which direction would you push him in?
Lester C.
12-09-2008, 05:26 AM
Nightwing, by concept and by characterization, is one of my all-time favorite heroes. I even like him more than Batman. But when I think about it, I can't think of a single Nightwing story I absolutely love, just small Nightwing moments here and there that make him cool.
It seems to me that he's one great writer away from being a really critical breakout. I think he could be the critical DC equivalent of Daredevil - he's got enough baggage to make him prestigious and iconic, but yet not enough "iconicity" in the name and costume that you can't screw around with him. And it seems that every time a writer shifts, his supporting cast changes.
Anyone else feel this way? Or, for a more fun question, what would YOU do as Nightwing editor? Whom would YOU hire, and which direction would you push him in?
What's "wrong" with Nightwing is that many writers, artists, and worse editors, grew up reading comics in the Silver Age. For them Dick Grayson becoming Robin represents the shift from the Silver Age to the Modern Age and they hate him for it. So much so that you have people like Alex Ross who refuse to draw him and Dan Diddo wanting to kill him but was overuled at the very last minute by a higher up. The death scene though still made it's way into Infinite Crisis but the words were changed and the scene later fixed when the trade came out.
What's "wrong" with Nightwing is that many writers, artists, and worse editors, grew up reading comics in the Silver Age. For them Dick Grayson becoming Robin represents the shift from the Silver Age to the Modern Age and they hate him for it. So much so that you have people like Alex Ross who refuse to draw him and Dan Diddo wanting to kill him but was overuled at the very last minute by a higher up. The death scene though still made it's way into Infinite Crisis but the words were changed and the scene later fixed when the trade came out.
All right, let's say we have an editor-in-chief who doesn't hate him - whom would you like hired to take over Nightwing, and what direction would you want him to go in?
Don't pee in the (Dead)pool
12-09-2008, 07:07 AM
Nightwing, by concept and by characterization, is one of my all-time favorite heroes. I even like him more than Batman. But when I think about it, I can't think of a single Nightwing story I absolutely love, just small Nightwing moments here and there that make him cool.
It seems to me that he's one great writer away from being a really critical breakout. I think he could be the critical DC equivalent of Daredevil - he's got enough baggage to make him prestigious and iconic, but yet not enough "iconicity" in the name and costume that you can't screw around with him. And it seems that every time a writer shifts, his supporting cast changes.
Anyone else feel this way? Or, for a more fun question, what would YOU do as Nightwing editor? Whom would YOU hire, and which direction would you push him in?
I'd hire J.M. DeMatteis to handle the writing chores, having him delve into the psyches of Nightwing, his supporting cast and his villains just as he did in Spectacular Spider-Man in the '90s.
On art I'd have Mark Bagley...:cool:
Akelexre
12-09-2008, 07:22 AM
What's wrong with Nightwing?
--Using Batman's villains
This always annoyed me. A hero has to have his own villans. I get tired of Bat's rouge gallery popping up in Night's book. And, related to that...
--Nightwing has no villains of his own worth mentioning.
Pretty much. It takes years--sometime decades--to establish a strong connection between a villain and hero. Nightwing hasn't had the time or personnel to do that (is Blockbuster still dead?)
--No mythology around Bloodhaven
Everyone knows Bats operates out of Gotham, Supes out of Metropolis, Spidey out of NY, etc., as a comic company you gotta find a way to distinguish a hero's city and make it (the city) theirs (the hero's). They didn't do that. I mean, Bloodhaven is a bad town, yeah, and? I felt like when Nightwing was there, it was never firmly established either WHY he was there (besides that it was too crowded in Gotham) or that he WAS a Bloodhaven-ite.
--No marquee story for Nightwing.
You know when someone starts a thread on a comic forum asking, "What books do I need to read for this character?" and for Bats everyone replies Year One, Long Halloween, etc.; and for Supes they say For All Seasons, etc. If someone started a thread like that for Nightwing, what would you say? MAYBE Year One, but I actually thought Nightwing's was the weakest of the Year One books. Not much else after that. You need big, famous arcs, especially in the graphic novel age. And connected to that
--Not many big name marquee writers and artists
Dixon is good but not really a big name or even necessarily a great writer (fun, but not great). Land is an OK artist. DC generally saves its big guns for other books, leaving Nightwing with more second tier writing and art talent.
I'm not sure DC really know what they are doing with Nightwing. Sometimes I wonder if they actually LIKE him...
Redem
12-09-2008, 07:25 AM
Well he is a character that require a lot of setup in his origin story since he wasn't nightwing from the start and he's tie up to batman so I guess its a bit of an handicap for those who don't know a lot about continuity
(I for one draw the line between those who genuily know comic and those who don't if they know who Nightwing is :biggrin: )
I'd hire J.M. DeMatteis to handle the writing chores, having him delve into the psyches of Nightwing, his supporting cast and his villains just as he did in Spectacular Spider-Man in the '90s.
On art I'd have Mark Bagley...:cool:
That's a great combination! If JM had a weakness on Spider-Man, I think it was that he sometimes got too heavy for the character, which upon reflection works perfectly on Nightwing.
Mark Bagley would be great, too, but I'd be remiss (and you know this) if I didn't mention the very underrated Steven Butler.
What's wrong with Nightwing?
--Using Batman's villains
This always annoyed me. A hero has to have his own villans. I get tired of Bat's rouge gallery popping up in Night's book. And, related to that...
--Nightwing has no villains of his own worth mentioning.
Pretty much. It takes years--sometime decades--to establish a strong connection between a villain and hero. Nightwing hasn't had the time or personnel to do that (is Blockbuster still dead?)
--No mythology around Bloodhaven
Everyone knows Bats operates out of Gotham, Supes out of Metropolis, Spidey out of NY, etc., as a comic company you gotta find a way to distinguish a hero's city and make it (the city) theirs (the hero's). They didn't do that. I mean, Bloodhaven is a bad town, yeah, and? I felt like when Nightwing was there, it was never firmly established either WHY he was there (besides that it was too crowded in Gotham) or that he WAS a Bloodhaven-ite.
--No marquee story for Nightwing.
You know when someone starts a thread on a comic forum asking, "What books do I need to read for this character?" and for Bats everyone replies Year One, Long Halloween, etc.; and for Supes they say For All Seasons, etc. If someone started a thread like that for Nightwing, what would you say? MAYBE Year One, but I actually thought Nightwing's was the weakest of the Year One books. Not much else after that. You need big, famous arcs, especially in the graphic novel age. And connected to that
--Not many big name marquee writers and artists
Dixon is good but not really a big name or even necessarily a great writer (fun, but not great). Land is an OK artist. DC generally saves its big guns for other books, leaving Nightwing with more second tier writing and art talent.
I'm not sure DC really know what they are doing with Nightwing. Sometimes I wonder if they actually LIKE him...
Your first two points kind of, not totally, contradict each other. You say that you're annoyed when he uses the Bat-villains, but you also say that he just hasn't had enough time to form a rapport with his original villains. Considering his original villains aren't really on his level, (I think) wouldn't a solution then be to fall back on the Bat-villains, with whom he DOES have a history? There's a built in story to those - one of uncertainty and lack of confidence, since he knows these guys can take Batman to the limit.
On that note, how would using Deathstroke as a frontman villain be?
That there is no mythology around whichever city he's in and that he has no marquee stories is the whole point of this thread - to see what you would do to rectify that. You say he hasn't been handed really good creators. Who would you like?
Well he is a character that require a lot of setup in his origin story since he wasn't nightwing from the start and he's tie up to batman so I guess its a bit of an handicap for those who don't know a lot about continuity
(I for one draw the line between those who genuily know comic and those who don't if they know who Nightwing is :biggrin: )
That could easily be solved by a blurb on the splash page, though. Nightwing's essential baggage (original Robin) won't even take five sentences to explain to a new reader.
Alan2099
12-09-2008, 08:02 AM
Your first two points kind of, not totally, contradict each other. You say that you're annoyed when he uses the Bat-villains, but you also say that he just hasn't had enough time to form a rapport with his original villains. Considering his original villains aren't really on his level, (I think) wouldn't a solution then be to fall back on the Bat-villains, with whom he DOES have a history?
Not really.
He needs his own villains. Yeah, that takes time, but it's essential.
Now he has history with Batman villains, but they will always be seen as Batman villains unless somebody takes their encounters up to the next level and uses them in ways that they simply don't use them when facing Batman. Think about the Kingpin for a moment. He was a Spider-man villain until he was pushed to the forefront as a Daredeveil enemy. Since then he's rarely been seen dealing with Spider-man. Honestly, I don't see DC wanting to give up any Batman villains to even a closely related character, so that arguement is pretty much a dead end.
It also realy hurts that pretty much every defining moment for Dick Grayson has been in his Robin persona instead of as Nightwing.
Don't pee in the (Dead)pool
12-09-2008, 08:04 AM
That's a great combination! If JM had a weakness on Spider-Man, I think it was that he sometimes got too heavy for the character, which upon reflection works perfectly on Nightwing.
Mark Bagley would be great, too, but I'd be remiss (and you know this) if I didn't mention the very underrated Steven Butler.
Steven Butler would be a great choice and yes, you're correct in the fact that he's under-rated!
WorstThingUS
12-09-2008, 08:06 AM
Nightwing, by concept and by characterization, is one of my all-time favorite heroes. I even like him more than Batman. But when I think about it, I can't think of a single Nightwing story I absolutely love, just small Nightwing moments here and there that make him cool.
It seems to me that he's one great writer away from being a really critical breakout. I think he could be the critical DC equivalent of Daredevil - he's got enough baggage to make him prestigious and iconic, but yet not enough "iconicity" in the name and costume that you can't screw around with him. And it seems that every time a writer shifts, his supporting cast changes.
Anyone else feel this way? Or, for a more fun question, what would YOU do as Nightwing editor? Whom would YOU hire, and which direction would you push him in?
Well, what we're lacking here is a knowledge of what you've read, because if you haven't read Chuck Dixon's run, then you need to because he defined Nightwing. If you have and still feel this way, then I don't know what to tell you because no one has done the character better, not even Marv Wolfman.
Akelexre
12-09-2008, 08:09 AM
Not really.
He needs his own villains. Yeah, that takes time, but it's essential.
Now he has history with Batman villains, but they will always be seen as Batman villains unless somebody takes their encounters up to the next level and uses them in ways that they simply don't use them when facing Batman. Think about the Kingpin for a moment. He was a Spider-man villain until he was pushed to the forefront as a Daredeveil enemy. Since then he's rarely been seen dealing with Spider-man. Honestly, I don't see DC wanting to give up any Batman villains to even a closely related character, so that arguement is pretty much a dead end.
It also realy hurts that pretty much every defining moment for Dick Grayson has been in his Robin persona instead of as Nightwing.
Um, what he said.
I mean, they took the easy route out: instead of having to go through the growing pains of making and defining a new villain, its much easier and faster to use an established, name brand villain of another hero who may help you move books in the short term. But yeah, in the long term that strategy does not help define the hero or create a mythology for that character.
As for who I'd like to see on Nightwing? Brubaker, I think, would be awesome; he tells the kind of dark, gritty stories that a place like Bloodhaven would have in spades. Also, though he doesn't work for DC, Bendis would be a good writer too; he's done a great job with the young cast of Ultimate Spider-man (and U. X-men too when he was writing it) and it'd be nice to actually have a few of Dick's jokes be funny every now and then...
As for artists, it'd be nice to have a big name like Jim Lee on the book for a year.
If I could give a command and it would be followed in the comic book industry, for Nightwing I would would:
A: Uncancel the book.
B: The big writers/artists mentioned above, or ones like them.
C: Keep Batman and the Bat family and villains out of his book for a few years, at least two; at most you'd get a passing mention or maybe a phone call. He's got to establish his own (not just) villans, friends, neighbors, rivalries, support networks, whatever, in the city he's in independent from the Bat Clan. Also, I think he's still in NY in the comics; I'd definitely put him back in Bloodhaven and keep him there for good.
Meantime I'd try to find more of an angle about Bloodhaven. What's special about it--beyond how horrible it is? How exactly does Dick fit in? How does he become a Bloodhaven-ite i.e. someone with real ties to the city, not just a dude who threw a dart at a map and then hauled ass out of Gotham? This allows you to really put Bloodhaven on the map in the DC Universe, so to speak, to define it in readers minds, and help further differentiate Dick Grayson from the Robin/Bats connection.
Also, no killing anyone for a few years; establish some momentum with the characters and relationships to see what works and what doesn't. I think comics nowadays are a bit too quick to kill characters for shock/character development/emo value.
D: Chill with his appearances in other books. No running around with the Titans (if he still does that); if he's gonna appear in another book, it would be as a significant actor in a major event (like one of the Crisis dealies).
WorstThingUS
12-09-2008, 08:32 AM
Okay, does anyone really read this book? I ask because Bludhaven was destroyed during Infinite Crisis years ago and since then Dick has been in NYC.
Well, what we're lacking here is a knowledge of what you've read, because if you haven't read Chuck Dixon's run, then you need to because he defined Nightwing. If you have and still feel this way, then I don't know what to tell you because no one has done the character better, not even Marv Wolfman.
I've read a few paperbacks of Dixon's run, and while I agree that it was "definitive" in terms of characterization, I don't really feel it's all that great in terms of story, if that makes any sense. It's pretty much a case of Nightwing being cool, but his stories being mediocre.
Not really.
He needs his own villains. Yeah, that takes time, but it's essential.
Now he has history with Batman villains, but they will always be seen as Batman villains unless somebody takes their encounters up to the next level and uses them in ways that they simply don't use them when facing Batman. Think about the Kingpin for a moment. He was a Spider-man villain until he was pushed to the forefront as a Daredeveil enemy. Since then he's rarely been seen dealing with Spider-man. Honestly, I don't see DC wanting to give up any Batman villains to even a closely related character, so that arguement is pretty much a dead end.
It also realy hurts that pretty much every defining moment for Dick Grayson has been in his Robin persona instead of as Nightwing.
I don't see why we can't give Two-Face to Dick. I mean, I've read about, what, three stories in the last six years which all revolved around Two-Face's face getting fixed?
Um, what he said.
I mean, they took the easy route out: instead of having to go through the growing pains of making and defining a new villain, its much easier and faster to use an established, name brand villain of another hero who may help you move books in the short term. But yeah, in the long term that strategy does not help define the hero or create a mythology for that character.
As for who I'd like to see on Nightwing? Brubaker, I think, would be awesome; he tells the kind of dark, gritty stories that a place like Bloodhaven would have in spades. Also, though he doesn't work for DC, Bendis would be a good writer too; he's done a great job with the young cast of Ultimate Spider-man (and U. X-men too when he was writing it) and it'd be nice to actually have a few of Dick's jokes be funny every now and then...
As for artists, it'd be nice to have a big name like Jim Lee on the book for a year.
If I could give a command and it would be followed in the comic book industry, for Nightwing I would would:
A: Uncancel the book.
B: The big writers/artists mentioned above, or ones like them.
C: Keep Batman and the Bat family and villains out of his book for a few years, at least two; at most you'd get a passing mention or maybe a phone call. He's got to establish his own (not just) villans, friends, neighbors, rivalries, support networks, whatever, in the city he's in independent from the Bat Clan. Also, I think he's still in NY in the comics; I'd definitely put him back in Bloodhaven and keep him there for good.
Meantime I'd try to find more of an angle about Bloodhaven. What's special about it--beyond how horrible it is? How exactly does Dick fit in? How does he become a Bloodhaven-ite i.e. someone with real ties to the city, not just a dude who threw a dart at a map and then hauled ass out of Gotham? This allows you to really put Bloodhaven on the map in the DC Universe, so to speak, to define it in readers minds, and help further differentiate Dick Grayson from the Robin/Bats connection.
Also, no killing anyone for a few years; establish some momentum with the characters and relationships to see what works and what doesn't. I think comics nowadays are a bit too quick to kill characters for shock/character development/emo value.
D: Chill with his appearances in other books. No running around with the Titans (if he still does that); if he's gonna appear in another book, it would be as a significant actor in a major event (like one of the Crisis dealies).
Anyone got any objections to this plan? Aside from the Bludhaven part, of course.
Alan2099
12-09-2008, 08:54 AM
I don't see why we can't give Two-Face to Dick. I mean, I've read about, what, three stories in the last six years which all revolved around Two-Face's face getting fixed?
Because all the cartoons, movies, and liceansisng has Two-Face tied up as a huge Batman baddie. Nightwing might be able to pull over somebody like Firefly or Black Mask, but he's not getting any of the big names.
Akelexre
12-09-2008, 08:58 AM
Okay, does anyone really read this book? I ask because Bludhaven was destroyed during Infinite Crisis years ago and since then Dick has been in NYC.
Fine fine, keep him in NYC (confine him primarily to a specific segment) or move him to another city. The rest of my post still stands (they're still using Bat's villains, he still isn't getting the big quality writers, he still doesn't have any marquee arcs, etc.).
Okay, does anyone really read this book? I ask because Bludhaven was destroyed during Infinite Crisis years ago and since then Dick has been in NYC.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Nate Grey
12-09-2008, 09:10 AM
What's wrong with Nightwing?
--Using Batman's villains
This always annoyed me. A hero has to have his own villans. I get tired of Bat's rouge gallery popping up in Night's book. And, related to that...
--Nightwing has no villains of his own worth mentioning.
Pretty much. It takes years--sometime decades--to establish a strong connection between a villain and hero. Nightwing hasn't had the time or personnel to do that (is Blockbuster still dead?)
--No mythology around Bloodhaven
Everyone knows Bats operates out of Gotham, Supes out of Metropolis, Spidey out of NY, etc., as a comic company you gotta find a way to distinguish a hero's city and make it (the city) theirs (the hero's). They didn't do that. I mean, Bloodhaven is a bad town, yeah, and? I felt like when Nightwing was there, it was never firmly established either WHY he was there (besides that it was too crowded in Gotham) or that he WAS a Bloodhaven-ite.
--No marquee story for Nightwing.
You know when someone starts a thread on a comic forum asking, "What books do I need to read for this character?" and for Bats everyone replies Year One, Long Halloween, etc.; and for Supes they say For All Seasons, etc. If someone started a thread like that for Nightwing, what would you say? MAYBE Year One, but I actually thought Nightwing's was the weakest of the Year One books. Not much else after that. You need big, famous arcs, especially in the graphic novel age. And connected to that
--Not many big name marquee writers and artists
Dixon is good but not really a big name or even necessarily a great writer (fun, but not great). Land is an OK artist. DC generally saves its big guns for other books, leaving Nightwing with more second tier writing and art talent.
I'm not sure DC really know what they are doing with Nightwing. Sometimes I wonder if they actually LIKE him...
I pretty much agree with this, especially the first two point. Nightwing, IMO, had his own unique nemesis in Torque, and sure enough, they kill him off (though what's dead mean in comics anymore?). Beyond that, it always seems like he's using Batman's villains or someone else is guest starring in his book.
Another thing is I think Nightwing needs a niche all his own. Something you don't see in Batman's book (which should by default, IMO, exclude ALL of Batman's villain so Dick would get his own) or Robin's book or any of the other offshoots. Something only Dick can handle, and being the Batman of Gotham 2 (which is what his tenure in Bludhaven was, I felt) isn't it. I got ideas on what it could be, but I'm not writing/will write Nightwing.
Also, the name always seemed...kinda off. What's a "Nightwing" anyway? Hopefull when/if he becomes Red Robin he'll get that bigger audience/niche cause maybe more outfolks will recognize him and want to read him ("Oh its Robin grown up with 'red' in his name, cool, I want to read about him!").
WorstThingUS
12-09-2008, 09:12 AM
Fine fine, keep him in NYC (confine him primarily to a specific segment) or move him to another city. The rest of my post still stands (they're still using Bat's villains, he still isn't getting the big quality writers, he still doesn't have any marquee arcs, etc.).
I'm standing by Dixon's run being as good a standard superhero run as it gets, but what makes a "marquee" arc?
Nightwing, by concept and by characterization, is one of my all-time favorite heroes. I even like him more than Batman. But when I think about it, I can't think of a single Nightwing story I absolutely love, just small Nightwing moments here and there that make him cool.
It seems to me that he's one great writer away from being a really critical breakout. I think he could be the critical DC equivalent of Daredevil - he's got enough baggage to make him prestigious and iconic, but yet not enough "iconicity" in the name and costume that you can't screw around with him. And it seems that every time a writer shifts, his supporting cast changes.
Dick and Matt Murdock are two completely different characters.
First of all Dick is more sanguine and upbeat. If Dick fails at something. He'll pick himself up, try and figure out what went wrong and start all over again. He won't spent issue after punishing himself
Matt on the other hand if he messes up he will brood about it forever. He also seems to take on the baggage of other people's responsibilities. Devin Grayson tried to mimimick Frank Miller's DD 'Born Again' during and it turned into a farce.
Second while I love Dick to bits and pieces. Dick is no way as smart as Matt Murdock. Dick is a college drop out. Matt has a law degree from Harvard. Dick has plenty of street smarts but he has no book smarts. One of the reasons I dropped NW was because Tomasi had turned Dick into a Marty Stu who was running a museum. Give me a break!
Daredevil is willing to break the law for the greater good or to achieve his aims. Nightwing is a boyscout
Dick has always seemed to me as a cooler version of Spider-man but without the insecurities and hang ups.
Personally I would love to see Chuck Dixon back on this book. He's the only writer whom I know who loves the character enough to reign in his 'man crush on the character' and not turn Dick into some boring Marty Stu who can do everything.
Anyone else feel this way? Or, for a more fun question, what would YOU do as Nightwing editor? Whom would YOU hire, and which direction would you push him in?
I would make Dick a cop again. Or I would have him take out a loan from Bruce Wayne and start his own detective agency or security company (like Pinkerton's). He would start off small. But gradually get bigger. He would hire ex-cons-theives who would help him to make his company better. I would center stories around his being Nightwing and running his company. I would also give him a new girlfriend. Someone smart but not too serious. A hybrid of Dinah Lance and Selina Kyle. Someone who can look after herself. But who isn't demanding.
G. Wayne
12-09-2008, 09:25 AM
What's "wrong" with Nightwing is that many writers, artists, and worse editors, grew up reading comics in the Silver Age. For them Dick Grayson becoming Robin represents the shift from the Silver Age to the Modern Age and they hate him for it. So much so that you have people like Alex Ross who refuse to draw him...
Wow, really?! I knew Ross has hangups on Green Lantern and Aquaman (among others at this point), but Nightwing?
Redem
12-09-2008, 10:32 AM
Wow, really?! I knew Ross has hangups on Green Lantern and Aquaman (among others at this point), but Nightwing?
Well we had a thread on this recently
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=246427
He kinda did draw him, but never as a portrait if Nightwing around its usually because there someone else
That could easily be solved by a blurb on the splash page, though. Nightwing's essential baggage (original Robin) won't even take five sentences to explain to a new reader.
Yea but considering its an addon to an already existing mythology I think its a bit of an handicap for those unfamiliar with it all
WorstThingUS
12-09-2008, 01:35 PM
As for who I'd like to see on Nightwing? Brubaker, I think, would be awesome; he tells the kind of dark, gritty stories that a place like Bloodhaven would have in spades. Also, though he doesn't work for DC, Bendis would be a good writer too; he's done a great job with the young cast of Ultimate Spider-man (and U. X-men too when he was writing it) and it'd be nice to actually have a few of Dick's jokes be funny every now and then...
Bad choice. I love Brubaker, but Dick Grayson has never been a dark and moody character, even with his Bruce angst. He's always been a bright light, a swashbuckling hero and Chuck Dixon understood that. Gail Simone would get that.
If I could give a command and it would be followed in the comic book industry, for Nightwing I would would:
A: Uncancel the book.
We don't know if this is a sales cancellation or a cancellation because Dick will most likely become Batman.
B: The big writers/artists mentioned above, or ones like them.
If you've seen James Robinson's horrible run on Superman you know that not every writer can do every character. Not to mention apparently there's an all-star waiting list to do Nightwing that DiDio just won't let happen. Mark Waid, Geoff Johns and Brian Andryeko have all wanted to write the book.
C: Keep Batman and the Bat family and villains out of his book for a few years, at least two; at most you'd get a passing mention or maybe a phone call. He's got to establish his own (not just) villans, friends, neighbors, rivalries, support networks, whatever, in the city he's in independent from the Bat Clan.
While independence is good, it strains disbelief he wouldn't make use of all his resources. After all, that's what makes him different from Batman.
Also, no killing anyone for a few years; establish some momentum with the characters and relationships to see what works and what doesn't. I think comics nowadays are a bit too quick to kill characters for shock/character development/emo value.
Amen. I'm still annoyed that The Golden Age Tarantula died a cruel off-panel death when Nightwing's building was blown up.
D: Chill with his appearances in other books. No running around with the Titans (if he still does that); if he's gonna appear in another book, it would be as a significant actor in a major event (like one of the Crisis dealies).
Again, he's not Batman. He enjoys his team work. And if you're a big star in you're in a lot of books. You can't say you're working for stardom then hide his light under a bushel. He's the premier superhero of the next generation. He should be out there more if anything.
michaeljsmith
12-09-2008, 02:35 PM
Okay, does anyone really read this book? I ask because Bludhaven was destroyed during Infinite Crisis years ago and since then Dick has been in NYC.
He really should have moved to Vegas - just always seemed like a city they could have started building some villains around and the glitz an glamor would be something to try and build Nightwing up a little.
Then again location would not have made the writing a lot better - but running a museum? Really?
Just my opinion.
Redem
12-09-2008, 02:52 PM
He really should have moved to Vegas - just always seemed like a city they could have started building some villains around and the glitz an glamor would be something to try and build Nightwing up a little.
Then again location would not have made the writing a lot better - but running a museum? Really?
Just my opinion.
Well if he was more a magic based super-heroe him having a museum would make sense, but that's light-years away from what Nightwing is about
It actually sound pretyt neat in some ways, thought isn't Las Vegas much more commercial than it use to be? and well if it was shown as a mob town it might have felt too much like Bludhaven 2.0, but I'm sure an interesting zing could be brought to it.
(I still would say it would be a more exciting setting than DC New York)
Dick and Matt Murdock are two completely different characters.
Dick has always seemed to me as a cooler version of Spider-man but without the insecurities and hang ups.
I wasn't saying that they're the same characters. I was saying that Dick's book could fill the critical niche that Daredevil's book has tended to fill at Marvel, because he's got a mix of "iconicity" and also a sense that you can do a lot with him because he's far enough removed from being a real icon in the public.
As for the cooler version of Spider-Man, maybe that's the problem? What's Peter without the hang-ups?
Wind-Breaker
12-09-2008, 09:50 PM
What’s wrong with Nightwing? Fabian Nicieza isn't writing him on a regular basis! To me, in the few stories Fabian has wrote with the character were more entertaining than 90% of what I've read on Dick (and I've read every single issue of Nightwing).
Fabe wrote Nightwing?? Issue numbers??
JumpingJupiter
12-09-2008, 10:02 PM
Someone over at iFanboy said that Nightwing should take the cowl not have it be passed on to him in BFTC. That would distinguish him from the rest of the Bat-family and make him more memorable. He'd be the guy who got in Batman's face and said "You're a maniac and I'm taking over! You're cut off."
It would be controversial and up him rank wise. That would make him DC's Daredevil in my opinion.
Wind-Breaker
12-09-2008, 10:16 PM
Fabe wrote Nightwing?? Issue numbers??
Just recently he wrote Nightwing's part of Rez of Ras Al Ghul, issue #138 and #139, plus he writes him in some parts of Trinity.
Just recently he wrote Nightwing's part of Rez of Ras Al Ghul, issue #138 and #139, plus he writes him in some parts of Trinity.
Oh yeah; too bad about those Ra's storylines though. I'd love to see a full Nightwing story from Fabe.
stealthwise
12-09-2008, 10:37 PM
Oh yeah; too bad about those Ra's storylines though. I'd love to see a full Nightwing story from Fabe.
Me too.
Kurt Busiek as well, although he's likely pretty busy right now.
Another interesting choice would be Christos Gage.
Quinnhop
12-09-2008, 11:59 PM
Ed Brubaker + Alex Maleev = Iconic Nightwing
Pól Rua
12-10-2008, 02:49 AM
Nightwing, by concept and by characterization, is one of my all-time favorite heroes. I even like him more than Batman. But when I think about it, I can't think of a single Nightwing story I absolutely love, just small Nightwing moments here and there that make him cool.
The main thing that's wrong with Nightwing is that everything he is... there's another guy who does that too... better.
Basically, he's Batman-lite.
He shouldn't be... but there you go. The reason he's not more popular than he is is that there's another bloke who's been there, done that before... only better.
A good writer would point out that this is Dick Grayson, Robin, the one who likes puns, bad jokes and witty quips. He should be funny. He should be the light-hearted swashbuckler, the hero who laughs at danger.
Unfortunately, everyone since he's become Nightwing has treated him as 'like Batman, but not as good'.
Pól Rua
12-10-2008, 04:32 AM
That would make him DC's Daredevil in my opinion.
See the thing is, I think he already is.
But PRE-Miller.
Before Miller, DD was a failing title. Even with creators of the pedigree of Wally Wood and Bill Everett in there. Because Marvel already HAD a hero who did the stuff DD did in Spider-Man.
Swinging around rooftops? Check.
Red Suit? Check.
Goofy assortment of theme villains? Check.
Laughing Swashbuckler? Check.
It wasn't until Frank Miller came along and instituted a RADICAL change in tone that all of a sudden, Daredevil became his own character.
I think the same thing needs to be done with Nightwing. Only in reverse. At the moment, he's trying to hard to be like Bruce... he's a lone, fallible man, in a crime-riddled, corrupt metropolis, having noirish, gritty adventures.
It's not working. People can get the same thing... better... from Batman.
Nightwing needs to be the FUN title.
I think Gail Simone or (and bear with me those who haven't read his early stuff) Judd Winick (breathe, seriously. Read some Barry Ween. The guy is funny as hell when he hasn't got DiDio perched like a humourless vulture on the back of his chair) could do a great job on this title.
I could see it as something like the TV series, 'Burn Notice'. Superconfident guy, trained by experts with a vast reserve of crimefighting and investigative skills and a good supporting cast. Upbeat, but not a parody of itself.
See the thing is, I think he already is.
But PRE-Miller.
Before Miller, DD was a failing title. Even with creators of the pedigree of Wally Wood and Bill Everett in there. Because Marvel already HAD a hero who did the stuff DD did in Spider-Man.
Swinging around rooftops? Check.
Red Suit? Check.
Goofy assortment of theme villains? Check.
Laughing Swashbuckler? Check.
It wasn't until Frank Miller came along and instituted a RADICAL change in tone that all of a sudden, Daredevil became his own character.
I think the same thing needs to be done with Nightwing. Only in reverse. At the moment, he's trying to hard to be like Bruce... he's a lone, fallible man, in a crime-riddled, corrupt metropolis, having noirish, gritty adventures.
It's not working. People can get the same thing... better... from Batman.
Nightwing needs to be the FUN title.
I think Gail Simone or (and bear with me those who haven't read his early stuff) Judd Winick (breathe, seriously. Read some Barry Ween. The guy is funny as hell when he hasn't got DiDio perched like a humourless vulture on the back of his chair) could do a great job on this title.
I could see it as something like the TV series, 'Burn Notice'. Superconfident guy, trained by experts with a vast reserve of crimefighting and investigative skills and a good supporting cast. Upbeat, but not a parody of itself.
Wouldn't that just run the risk of him being a poor man's Spider-Man instead?
Libaax
12-10-2008, 06:30 AM
One thing is wrong with NW today.
They arent trying to make him his own man and hero like early Nightwing series with Dixon,McDaniel. Those issues were great because he had his own town,villains,drama. Heck he tried being a cop even.
Thats far from todays let him be more Batman. The problem today they writing him like an adult Robin when there is already the regular Robin running around in Tim.
So we've got "Nightwing is Batman-lite" and "Nightwing is an adult Robin" arguments.
Should the creators be trying to find a balance, or breaking out from both molds entirely?
booziehand
12-10-2008, 07:45 AM
So we've got "Nightwing is Batman-lite" and "Nightwing is an adult Robin" arguments.
Should the creators be trying to find a balance, or breaking out from both molds entirely?
That's a good question, I'm all for the balance but wrapped around in his own story and own way of dealing with things not be a carbon copy of trying to figure out what Batman would do kinda thing. Give him his own mind thoughts and feelings which sometimes may be similar but not exactly the same as batman or robin. He doesn't need to be a robot or clone which he seems to now be heading toward
That's a good question, I'm all for the balance but wrapped around in his own story and own way of dealing with things not be a carbon copy of trying to figure out what Batman would do kinda thing. Give him his own mind thoughts and feelings which sometimes may be similar but not exactly the same as batman or robin. He doesn't need to be a robot or clone which he seems to now be heading toward
Interesting. We all know that Dick coped with his personal tragedies better than Bruce ever did, and can actually handle relationships. This is why, I think, overall, he's the best "leader" figure in the DCU. The heroes all trust him on a personal level, and, in addition, he's a great tactician. (Unlike, say, Superman, who's got the trust down pat but is not a great tactician, or Batman who's the other way around.)
What, however, makes him markedly different from what people would perceive an adult Tim would be like? Dick is well-balanced, but maybe he's TOO well-balanced to carry a really great run?
booziehand
12-10-2008, 09:10 AM
Interesting. We all know that Dick coped with his personal tragedies better than Bruce ever did, and can actually handle relationships. This is why, I think, overall, he's the best "leader" figure in the DCU. The heroes all trust him on a personal level, and, in addition, he's a great tactician. (Unlike, say, Superman, who's got the trust down pat but is not a great tactician, or Batman who's the other way around.)
What, however, makes him markedly different from what people would perceive an adult Tim would be like? Dick is well-balanced, but maybe he's TOO well-balanced to carry a really great run?
You may be on to something should he be given a team them. Don't know if he has had one in the past but should he maybe be given a team now sine he would have to interact with others and react to them, grow with them and play off what they do?
JumpingJupiter
12-10-2008, 09:15 AM
Yup, Nightwing is too Batman-ish. That's why I think he should get in Batman's face and be all like "I'm taking over and doing this fro now on".
The writers could show that Nightwing is not a lesser Batman but an alternative one. Show how he's different, not inferior.
WorstThingUS
12-10-2008, 09:42 AM
See the thing is, I think he already is.
But PRE-Miller.
Before Miller, DD was a failing title. Even with creators of the pedigree of Wally Wood and Bill Everett in there. Because Marvel already HAD a hero who did the stuff DD did in Spider-Man.
Swinging around rooftops? Check.
Red Suit? Check.
Goofy assortment of theme villains? Check.
Laughing Swashbuckler? Check.
It wasn't until Frank Miller came along and instituted a RADICAL change in tone that all of a sudden, Daredevil became his own character.
The irony being, as much as I loved Chuck Dixon's run on Nightwing, it was very much Daredevil
Law career by day, vigilante by night? Check
Hulking criminal mastermind with female obsession? Check
Whacked out female love interest working for said mastermind? Check
Assassin obsessed with beating him? Check
Reporter discovering secret identity? Check
Building being blown up? Check
Which is why this:
Ed Brubaker + Alex Maleev = Iconic Nightwing
...would be anything but iconic. More xeroxing is what it would be.
I think the same thing needs to be done with Nightwing. Only in reverse. At the moment, he's trying to hard to be like Bruce... he's a lone, fallible man, in a crime-riddled, corrupt metropolis, having noirish, gritty adventures.
It's not working. People can get the same thing... better... from Batman.
Seriously, is anyone reading the book currently? This no way describes his time in New York, where he's been since #118. We're currently on #151.
Nightwing needs to be the FUN title.
I think Gail Simone or (and bear with me those who haven't read his early stuff) Judd Winick (breathe, seriously. Read some Barry Ween. The guy is funny as hell when he hasn't got DiDio perched like a humourless vulture on the back of his chair) could do a great job on this title.
I also said Gail, but Winick just blows. I don't need someone with the sexual maturity of a 15-year-old doing this book.
I could see it as something like the TV series, 'Burn Notice'. Superconfident guy, trained by experts with a vast reserve of crimefighting and investigative skills and a good supporting cast. Upbeat, but not a parody of itself.
And you've won me back because Burn Notice is a great show and Nightwing should be one of the most accomplished professionals working. You know who has written great "professional superheroes"? Roger Stern. His runs on Spider-Man and Captain America are depictions of seasoned pros who know how to do their jobs. And he can bring the humor.
Redem
12-10-2008, 11:44 AM
The irony being, as much as I loved Chuck Dixon's run on Nightwing, it was very much Daredevil
Law career by day, vigilante by night? Check
Hulking criminal mastermind with female obsession? Check
Whacked out female love interest working for said mastermind? Check
Assassin obsessed with beating him? Check
Reporter discovering secret identity? Check
Building being blown up? Check
.
Wasn't that the grayson run?
stillanerd
12-10-2008, 01:07 PM
Count me as one of those who believes that the problem with Nightwing is that he's treated as a wannabe Batman. Heck, it's even rumored that he's going to become the new Batman for a period of time after Final Crisis and Battle of the Cowl.
And yet, ironically, when Marv Wolfman made Dick Grayson change from Robin to Nightwing, the whole reason for doing so was for Dick to become his own man and a hero in his own right without being in Batman's shadow. And yet, what does DC do? Make more entrenched in Batman's world.
Basically, what people need to realize is that Nightwing, since he started out as a sidekick, is essentially a sidekick character. Obviously, he can't go back to being Robin, but he can, and has, been a leader of the Titans, which is an ensemble book. That's really where Dick Grayson became a character in his own right after Batman, and by being around other former sidekick characters and heroes. If he's part of an ensamble, part of a group of heroes, that's where the character thrives. Because, unlike his mentor Batman, Dick Grayson, by the character's own nature, is not a loner, no matter how hard the writers try to make him one.
WorstThingUS
12-10-2008, 01:32 PM
Wasn't that the grayson run?
Chuck set up him being cop to Daredevil's lawyer, Blockbuster running Bludhaven to Kingpin running NYC, Blockbuster's mother to Kingpin's wife and Shrike to Bullseye. The Tarantula working for Blockbuster (Elektra for the Kingpin), reporter discovering his secret id (Ben Urich) and building blowing up (Born Again) came with Grayson.
Pól Rua
12-10-2008, 05:17 PM
Wouldn't that just run the risk of him being a poor man's Spider-Man instead?
Dick Grayson was an acrobatic teenage crimethumper who made jokes at his enemies expense for 20 years before Spider-Man even existed.
Pól Rua
12-10-2008, 05:19 PM
And you've won me back because Burn Notice is a great show and Nightwing should be one of the most accomplished professionals working. You know who has written great "professional superheroes"? Roger Stern. His runs on Spider-Man and Captain America are depictions of seasoned pros who know how to do their jobs. And he can bring the humor.
Roger Stern? You can be my best pal for life!
Great suggestion!
Dick Grayson was an acrobatic teenage crimethumper who made jokes at his enemies expense for 20 years before Spider-Man even existed.
That doesn't mean he did it better than Peter, of course.
How would incorporating Deathstroke into Nightwing's exclusive Rogues' Gallery be? Deathstroke was primarily a Titans nemesis, and Dick is the seminal leader.
Or would that compromise Slade as a reliable bad guy for DC events?
WorstThingUS
12-10-2008, 11:16 PM
How would incorporating Deathstroke into Nightwing's exclusive Rogues' Gallery be? Deathstroke was primarily a Titans nemesis, and Dick is the seminal leader.
Or would that compromise Slade as a reliable bad guy for DC events?
If the fact that he destroyed Bludhaven just to get at Nightwing doesn't already make him one of Nightwing's rogues I don't know what will.
If the fact that he destroyed Bludhaven just to get at Nightwing doesn't already make him one of Nightwing's rogues I don't know what will.
I kinda meant a Nightwing-exclusive, or at least a Nightwing-primarily, villain.
A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.
12-11-2008, 03:04 AM
Most of my points have already been made, but there is one thing that really lays a damper on Nightwing's potential. Namely the god-awful costume. It looks like a movie-version of a comic book costume. It's possibly the least iconic in comics. It's a high point of comic book blandness. The Robin costumes always look good. Batman is as good as it gets. Nightwing is a black and blue jumpsuit.
So to fix Nightwing you need a new costume and an artist that could really deliver something new in the form of visuals. I agree that Nightwing (from what little I've read) is in the shadows of both Batman and Robin, so to fix him, you'd have to go in a somewhat new direction. The Spider-Man comparison is, fair, I'd say. And should Nightwing primarily be a "dark" book?
The challenge is, however, that you'd run the considerable risk of angering fans that have been with Dick for decades if you get too drastic. We are talking about one of the very oldest characters here. Which is why it is going to be a problem. The reason Miller's Daredevil worked so well was that nobody cared about DD in the first place.
Creative teams then. I'd go for Matt Fraction, since he is great and made me care about Iron Fist who I always thought was lamer than hell. And his X-Men is quite good - hectic and energetic. Or, if he would be given complete creative freedom, Peter Milligan.
As for the art I think Mahnke's work looked pretty good from the preview. His art has a selfconcious feel to it, which could work well. But it's also a little stiff at times. If you are going to play up the acrobatic antics, you'd pick a good Spider-Man artist, although no one specific comes to mind right now.
I guess the problem with Nightwing was that he was never set up as something radically different from Robin. He was just something in-between Batman and Robin. Not much too much room to move there.
the-wolf
12-11-2008, 06:44 PM
A few things out of the way first:
1) Deathstroke as a primary villain doesn't work. DS is a merc, not a one-city crime figure. Also, he's 10x faster and stronger, just as well-trained and smarter. If his primary mission was to erase NW, he could do it. It just doesn't suit DS's character, even with the Titans tie-in.
2) Returning him to a team situation is no solution. He became a leader with the Titans, fell in love, did a lot of maturing, but that was then. To do it now is to once again merely copy Batman's role with JLA. He again becomes Bat-lite.
3) The costume. Agreed, it bites. I like it in the sense that it's practical, but true enough, it does nothing to sell the character. The problem is, his first 2 costumes also sucked. I'd like to see DC put it out to all of their artists plus freelancers; re-design NW's costume. The most popular choice by committee wins. Personally, I'd like to see aspects of all 3 of his costumes married into a new one. But not forced. Re-imagine at will, please. The costume needs to speak to his name-sake.
I agree that Chuck Dixon wrote fun stories. I also agree that he wrote nothing truly memorable. Nothing classic. I'm not sure he ever has, actually. Nightwing needs to be written with a sense of fun, but he also needs a sense of seriousness.
I agree that NW's differences from Batman need to be played up. He needs to be made distinct and unique from Batman.
Now here's where I diverge. I've often felt (and observed) that the mark of true maturity in a young person isn't leaving home. Almost everyone feels the urge to leave the nest and strike out on their own. It is natural and healthy to do so. What often seems to mark true maturity is when a child comes back home. Rather than wanting to break from their parernts, they want to re-connect. They understand the cycle of life, the importance of family and differences or embarassments are buried and forgotten.
The parents, also, view the relationship differently. They see and recognize the growth and the child is treated more as equal.
To that end, I think Dick should not only return to Gotham, but to the Manor. The place is big enough that he could have his own wing (no pun intended) and the city is big enough that he could be his own hero. But that's just it. If Dick and Bruce were to cross paths, the animosity is gone. The resentment is gone. The need for Dick to prove he's his own man is gone. He knows who he is. He not only accepts it, but embraces it while still honoring the similarities with his roots. The need for Bruce to teach and direct and shelter is faded. Not gone completely, but faded. He is proud of the finished product and he hopes and acknowledges that the differences are actually improvements.
I think it would be great to see Bruce and Dick interacting as peers. To see Dick working out of the cave again. To witness conversations between Dick and Alfred again. Their relationship was always unique from Bruce's and Alfred's.
In the end, the only way for Dick to fully become his own man is to go full-circle and embrace his past.
That said, NW can always be made unique in the crimes he chooses to focus on and in the manner he chooses to deal with them. His stories can be deadly serious in tone, but he can still maintain his personality. The 2 things can, and must, co-exist.
Also, I wouldn't mind seeing NW regularly participating in international adventures. Perhaps pursuing crime networks of Gotham all the way across the globe.
All he needs is one big (not necessarily long), iconic story. And who better to do that than Dennis O'Neil?
For an on-going series, I certainly wouldn't mind Peter David. However, I think the best choice would be Greg Rucka.
TheAmazingSpidey
12-11-2008, 07:21 PM
I don't read Nightwing, but maybe DC could take some of Batman's B and C list villains and develop them into good Nightwing villains. That and do what Marvel did for Spidey--make him a bunch of new villains.
TheAmazingSpidey
12-11-2008, 07:26 PM
Ed Brubaker + Alex Maleev = Iconic Nightwing
I'd go out and start reading Nightwing were that to happen.
Nate Grey
12-11-2008, 08:57 PM
I agree that NW's differences from Batman need to be played up. He needs to be made distinct and unique from Batman.
I agree with everything you said up to this point. But this sentence and everything before it (except the costume) seems contradicted by everything you said after "Now here's where I diverge..." The funny thing is I still agree with what you said after that, but I think all those points can be tackled in ONE issue of Nightwing. Basing a whole series around that goes right back to the problem of Nightwing being Batman-Lite. He needs his own town, his own villains, his own...everything. Everything to say "Okay, this is his show, not Batman's, in fact I can't see Batman doing even half of what Nightwing is doing here!" Whatever that may be. Being around Batman and helping Batman in the manner you suggest, makes him like a sidekick. The way you posed it makes sense, but to get that same point across, that he's come full circle, I believe it should be in one issue of a new series where he's already found his niche that's seperate from Batman. Minus the moving back in part, though.
Its weird, I get everyone wants Dick to do better, but so far when tossing around ideas it all one way or the other comes back around to Bruce. From using his city, resources, villains, its like he's always an accessory to Bruce while not having anything all his own himself. To me that's a big problem, THE problem, cause again if folks think he's Batman-lite they're eventually gonna think why don't I just read Batman instead?
Thing is, I have ideas, too, everyone does I'd imagine, but once you post them HERE they can't be used, right? Not by anyone at DC. And I've never been the fanfic type, so...brutal catch 22.
I agree with everything you said up to this point. But this sentence and everything before it (except the costume) seems contradicted by everything you said after "Now here's where I diverge..." The funny thing is I still agree with what you said after that, but I think all those points can be tackled in ONE issue of Nightwing. Basing a whole series around that goes right back to the problem of Nightwing being Batman-Lite. He needs his own town, his own villains, his own...everything. Everything to say "Okay, this is his show, not Batman's, in fact I can't see Batman doing even half of what Nightwing is doing here!" Whatever that may be. Being around Batman and helping Batman in the manner you suggest, makes him like a sidekick. The way you posed it makes sense, but to get that same point across, that he's come full circle, I believe it should be in one issue of a new series where he's already found his niche that's seperate from Batman. Minus the moving back in part, though.
Its weird, I get everyone wants Dick to do better, but so far when tossing around ideas it all one way or the other comes back around to Bruce. From using his city, resources, villains, its like he's always an accessory to Bruce while not having anything all his own himself. To me that's a big problem, THE problem, cause again if folks think he's Batman-lite they're eventually gonna think why don't I just read Batman instead?
Thing is, I have ideas, too, everyone does I'd imagine, but once you post them HERE they can't be used, right? Not by anyone at DC. And I've never been the fanfic type, so...brutal catch 22.
You can post them here as far as I know; there's no legalese saying that DC has to get your permission to use those ideas. In the end, they're still their characters.
If you had a blog protected by the Creative Commons License, that'd be a little bit more tricky, I think.
Nate Grey
12-11-2008, 09:14 PM
You can post them here as far as I know; there's no legalese saying that DC has to get your permission to use those ideas. In the end, they're still their characters.
I know they wouldn't need my permission, but I always thought they avoided it to prevent folks from getting even a little wiggle room in courts. Probably an erroneous assumption, but I never really delved into it further until now.
the-wolf
12-11-2008, 09:29 PM
I agree with everything you said up to this point. But this sentence and everything before it (except the costume) seems contradicted by everything you said after "Now here's where I diverge..." The funny thing is I still agree with what you said after that, but I think all those points can be tackled in ONE issue of Nightwing. Basing a whole series around that goes right back to the problem of Nightwing being Batman-Lite. He needs his own town, his own villains, his own...everything. Everything to say "Okay, this is his show, not Batman's, in fact I can't see Batman doing even half of what Nightwing is doing here!" Whatever that may be. Being around Batman and helping Batman in the manner you suggest, makes him like a sidekick. The way you posed it makes sense, but to get that same point across, that he's come full circle, I believe it should be in one issue of a new series where he's already found his niche that's seperate from Batman. Minus the moving back in part, though.
Its weird, I get everyone wants Dick to do better, but so far when tossing around ideas it all one way or the other comes back around to Bruce. From using his city, resources, villains, its like he's always an accessory to Bruce while not having anything all his own himself. To me that's a big problem, THE problem, cause again if folks think he's Batman-lite they're eventually gonna think why don't I just read Batman instead?
Thing is, I have ideas, too, everyone does I'd imagine, but once you post them HERE they can't be used, right? Not by anyone at DC. And I've never been the fanfic type, so...brutal catch 22.
Of course DC can use them. A lot of people have the same great ideas. Posting them here doesn't mean that anyone from DC will ever even read them. Or that they didn't think of them first.
I know what you're saying, but Bruce and Dick don't need to go on patrol together anymore than Spider-man and Daredevil do. If Marvel can fit 754 different heroes into NYC, than surely NW can be in Gotham doing his own thing.
I mention the Manor and the Cave because those are the aspects of NW that I would dearly love to still see tied into the Bat mythos. Not NW and Batman, but Bruce and Dick. Sittin' around the cave after work havin' a brewski and swappin' war stories (you know what I mean). When it's time to go to work, they do their own thing.
The thing is, like it or not, Dick is forever tied into the Bat-verse. People will always associate the two. And what's wrong with that? IMO, that makes NW (Dick) more unique than other characters, not less. It just doesn't make sense to me to reject the past as though it never happened or as though Dick wouldn't care. The odd long-distance phone call to Bruce just doesn't ring true to me as a father-son dynamic. To me, it makes more sense for him to go back to his roots. People were sick and tired a long time ago of Bat-jerk and fights in the Cave with his apprentices. Here's a great way to mend fences and put some enjoyment back in to the mythos.
Again, Marvel has distinct villains for each hero all in the same city. New villains could be created for NW and still be in Gotham. Or as one poster pointed out, transfered as was the case with the Kingpin from DD to SM.
One thing my idea would do is give him a fantastic supporting cast right off the bat in Bruce, Alfred and Tim.
If, as I suggested, NW also does a lot of travel, this further separates him from being Bat-lite. I believe that embracing the past and not running from it are what's needed and it shows the sort of courage and character that Dick has as a person for doing so.
I know they wouldn't need my permission, but I always thought they avoided it to prevent folks from getting even a little wiggle room in courts. Probably an erroneous assumption, but I never really delved into it further until now.
They could always claim ignorance of the existence of the thread, which, for the most part, is probably true. Honestly, I posted a long time ago on the old boards about Earth aging and then the sun becoming red, and then it explodes, but a baby is sent from a rocket, going back in time and landing in the present day to be Superman. And that turned out to be the ending of a Superman Elseworlds a few years later.
I don't think this is really any different, unless you posted something monumentally groundbreaking.
WorstThingUS
12-11-2008, 10:36 PM
Creative teams then. I'd go for Matt Fraction, since he is great and made me care about Iron Fist who I always thought was lamer than hell.
That was with Ed Brubaker. I left with Brubaker and nothing I've seen since makes me want to go back.
Returning him to a team situation is no solution. He became a leader with the Titans, fell in love, did a lot of maturing, but that was then. To do it now is to once again merely copy Batman's role with JLA. He again becomes Bat-lite.
He never left being a team member so it's not a matter of returning. Not to mention, Batman's attitude is a bunch of people to do what he says. Dick sees The Titans as family, something Batman still doesn't see the JLA as.
I agree that Chuck Dixon wrote fun stories. I also agree that he wrote nothing truly memorable. Nothing classic. I'm not sure he ever has, actually. Nightwing needs to be written with a sense of fun, but he also needs a sense of seriousness.
Dixon had all, that and while I'll admit there was nothing jaw dropping either, "classic" stories are few and far between for any character.
Now here's where I diverge. I've often felt (and observed) that the mark of true maturity in a young person isn't leaving home. Almost everyone feels the urge to leave the nest and strike out on their own. It is natural and healthy to do so. What often seems to mark true maturity is when a child comes back home. Rather than wanting to break from their parernts, they want to re-connect. They understand the cycle of life, the importance of family and differences or embarassments are buried and forgotten.
The parents, also, view the relationship differently. They see and recognize the growth and the child is treated more as equal.
To that end, I think Dick should not only return to Gotham, but to the Manor. The place is big enough that he could have his own wing (no pun intended) and the city is big enough that he could be his own hero. But that's just it. If Dick and Bruce were to cross paths, the animosity is gone. The resentment is gone. The need for Dick to prove he's his own man is gone. He knows who he is. He not only accepts it, but embraces it while still honoring the similarities with his roots. The need for Bruce to teach and direct and shelter is faded. Not gone completely, but faded. He is proud of the finished product and he hopes and acknowledges that the differences are actually improvements.
If nothing else Tomasi has shown that Bruce and Dick currently have a very healthy, trouble-free relationship of mutual love and respect, but going back to live in the manor is a mistake second only to getting a cape.
There's a scene in Dan Jurgens' Titans run when the originals, minus Donna, get back together. Wally informs Dick that Donna's not coming, because her ex-husband and son died in an accident. Dick is devastated, and started crying for Donna and the fact that he wasn't there for her, followed by a long panel of him and the other Titans grieving. It then cuts to a close up of his eyes, and he just says "Come on. Let's get to work."
Right afterwards, he takes point, and the guys tell him that they've been doing fine on their own and they can handle it on their own. Dick goes all Batman on them and says "Prove it. Give me a complete, detailed briefing on the school." The guys, though, react as they would to Dick, in that they just all have these dumbfounded (and funny) looks on their faces, unlike the way they would react to Batman.
Dick continues in Bat-mode and gives them a fully detailed description of the school. When Wally asks how he knows all of it, he just says "Computer search. The way the job should be done," in the same terse way Bruce would. And then Roy asks him, in jest, how many bricks they used to build it. Dick spouts off a number, and Roy is in disbelief, saying that only Dick would actually know that. In the final panel of this two-page sequence, Dick just smiles, and says "Will you guys relax? I'm JOKING! What do you think I am, anyway?"
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Little moments like this, I think, really help when it comes to Dick. I'm not saying that Jurgens is the perfect guy to write him any more than I'd say Perez is the perfect guy to draw him, but for those two pages, I feel, Jurgens got it.
Wonder Dude
12-13-2008, 03:42 PM
Nightwing works for me because of all of his connections to the DCU. His comic should be filled with guest stars because he works so well with others. He could benefit from a long term pairing with Red Arrow as the two would have to have been workout partners to have succeded in the Titans.
Nightwing works for me because of all of his connections to the DCU. His comic should be filled with guest stars because he works so well with others. He could benefit from a long term pairing with Red Arrow as the two would have to have been workout partners to have succeded in the Titans.
Not to mention that Wally is his best friend, and it'd make sense for the two of them to hang out pretty frequently.
the goddamn batman
12-13-2008, 10:08 PM
That was with Ed Brubaker.
And? Matt Fraction does awesome work on his own as well.
WorstThingUS
12-13-2008, 11:39 PM
And? Matt Fraction does awesome work on his own as well.
Not from what I've seen.
Nightwing works for me because of all of his connections to the DCU. His comic should be filled with guest stars because he works so well with others. He could benefit from a long term pairing with Red Arrow as the two would have to have been workout partners to have succeded in the Titans.
Would Dick work as the headliner of Brave and the Bold?
muerte
12-16-2008, 05:53 AM
Would Dick work as the headliner of Brave and the Bold?
you know...that,if done right,wouldn't that bad of a concept,imo
NathanielEssex
12-16-2008, 08:46 AM
Not from what I've seen.
Yeah, I agree with this completely.
NathanielEssex
12-16-2008, 08:47 AM
Would Dick work as the headliner of Brave and the Bold?
That would be cool as hell. Someone at DC needs to see this idea.
That would be cool as hell. Someone at DC needs to see this idea.
With Dick as the anchorman for Brave and the Bold, most team-ups would have a more personal connection, since just about everyone has on some level a personal connection with Dick. It wouldn't just be two heroes teaming up.
n2doop5u
12-16-2008, 10:55 AM
With Dick as the anchorman for Brave and the Bold, most team-ups would have a more personal connection, since just about everyone has on some level a personal connection with Dick. It wouldn't just be two heroes teaming up.
Yeah but do little kids even know who nightwing is?
Harding Prime
12-16-2008, 10:57 AM
I'm standing by Dixon's run being as good a standard superhero run as it gets, but what makes a "marquee" arc?
Giving him a marquee that isn't tied to a Batman book. Something other than RIP or Last Rites, but something that can catch a reader of Bat books, or just DC in general. And I think that Two-Face is becoming more and more of a Nightwing villian, and I think DC is doing that for a reason. When Bruce comes back, give Nightwing his own book again, and make him his own spotlight character, not Batman's supporting character. And give it a transition. Give the Marquee the look of RIP and Last Rites but give it a feeling of change from the Batman symbol to the Nightwing symbol like they did in Knightsend. You have to give the people something poppin that they will catch besides "Collectors Edition: 1st Radical Issue!"
Yeah but do little kids even know who nightwing is?
Why does it matter? Is Brave and the Bold geared towards little kids?
Nate Grey
12-16-2008, 11:02 AM
It sounds like Nightwing is only as good as the people he knows and are connected with. I want the character to have something that's all his own (the niche I keep mentioning) and somehow that doesn't seem to be it. Seems to be the opposite, in fact. I think he's more than a "gateway" character. Gateway as in gateway to another character. Yet somehow this seems to be a selling point to his other fans, but not enough to the point to keep his book afloat.
Harding Prime
12-16-2008, 11:28 AM
It sounds like Nightwing is only as good as the people he knows and are connected with. I want the character to have something that's all his own (the niche I keep mentioning) and somehow that doesn't seem to be it. Seems to be the opposite, in fact. I think he's more than a "gateway" character. Gateway as in gateway to another character. Yet somehow this seems to be a selling point to his other fans, but not enough to the point to keep his book afloat.
I think the book could stay afloat, they just ended all Bat Family books for BFTC. I think once Bruce comes back, of all characters, Dick will get his own book again.
Alan2099
12-16-2008, 11:53 AM
I think they might want to put a bit more color into his suit. I'm not saying make it all bright red or yellow or something, but the dark blue and black just further seems to make him come off like Batman-lite. I'd say somewhere inbetween his Nightwing look and the old Robin outfit (although hopefully nothing as bad as Earth-2 Robin.)
I mean the character is supposed to be much more swashbuckling and lighthearted, but he's actually got one of the darker more serious costumes of the batclan. The cape needs to stay gone though. Also developing some trademark weapon for him that Batman and Robin doesn't usually use would help loads as well.
I think they might want to put a bit more color into his suit. I'm not saying make it all bright red or yellow or something, but the dark blue and black just further seems to make him come off like Batman-lite. I'd say somewhere inbetween his Nightwing look and the old Robin outfit (although hopefully nothing as bad as Earth-2 Robin.)
I mean the character is supposed to be much more swashbuckling and lighthearted, but he's actually got one of the darker more serious costumes of the batclan. The cape needs to stay gone though. Also developing some trademark weapon for him that Batman and Robin doesn't usually use would help loads as well.
He has the arnis for weapons, and I do like Dixon's idea that Dick travels differently from Bruce or Tim, because he's an acrobat.
I'd like some of the yellow to return to his costume.
Nate Grey
12-16-2008, 12:22 PM
Ironically, the "new" Nightwing's costume is exactly the kind of costume I would have loved to have seen Dick wearing. It has a cape, but not really, the raccoon mask, the right amount of black and gold...sigh. :frown:
Ironically, the "new" Nightwing's costume is exactly the kind of costume I would have loved to have seen Dick wearing. It has a cape, but not really, the raccoon mask, the right amount of black and gold...sigh. :frown:
The cape? Are you in favor of the glider they used on the animated series?
The animated series design took the Nightwing costume to another extreme, removing the accoutrements and making him look like a ninja. I think using the symbol and gliders from the show along with the gauntlets for the arms and boots from the comic would look good.
Nate Grey
12-16-2008, 11:10 PM
The cape? Are you in favor of the glider they used on the animated series?
Heck yeah! It was awesome. The cape kinda reminds me of the glider. However, I was NOT in favor of the mullet they gave him.
The animated series design took the Nightwing costume to another extreme, removing the accoutrements and making him look like a ninja. I think using the symbol and gliders from the show along with the gauntlets for the arms and boots from the comic would look good.
True. I liked it a lot.
Heck yeah! It was awesome. The cape kinda reminds me of the glider. However, I was NOT in favor of the mullet they gave him.
True. I liked it a lot.
I know it looked like a mullet, but I think they were going for ponytail.
Despite my problems with the show in general, I really liked the Nightwing costume in the Teen Titans animated series. Down to the hair (but then again, I'm a longhair)
Mundungus
12-16-2008, 11:17 PM
A lot of the time when someone is jumping on to Nightwing they want to separate him from his formative years as Batman's Robin. I say thee nay!
Dick Grayson is a special character. He's not a sidekick anymore, but he's the famous of all sidekicks. His relationship with Batman is a unique one and even though it has evolved over the years, it's still an important part of who he is.
If the Nightwing book wasn't cancelled, someone should jump on (or have Tomasi do it, because he rules) and FIRMLY establish a center for Dick Grayson to work out of. Whether it's a headquarters, a city, supporting cast, etc. Every time someone jumps on the book, everything changes. Establish something. Define his roots, his persona, his psyche, his future, his everything.
Maybe it's because I've never really read Nightwing and I wasn't around when he went from Robin to Nightwing, or what he's really gone through continuity-wise. But it seems like people still don't know who "Dick Grayson" really is. Let's put that into focus.
Kid Kamikaze10
12-16-2008, 11:23 PM
I like the title currently. (too bad it's being canceled)
However, I think that Grayson's run is a really big reason why Nightwing is considered a mess currently.
Vic Vega
12-18-2008, 02:28 PM
Devin's run wasn't nearly as bad as its made out to be and Dixon's wasn't nearly as good.
Fans were creeped out by Devin's unabashed fetishization for the character(if he were real she do him in a heartbeat) but at least she emphasized the dectective angle in a way that Dixon never did (For Dixon, Tim is the ace dectective and Dick's the ace acrobat).
The Dixon run also failed in not ultizing the Titans and thier villans enough. If Dick Greyson has an archenemy its Deathstroke. Cheshire works too as he's got a personal reason to want her in jail too.
The Titans are his family of choice and running buddies. If Nightwing needed tech, he could go to Cyborg for it and not necessarily Bruce. If he needs street level backup he could just go to Roy.
By making him just Batman's heir apparent you actually make him LESS interesting since we all know he's never going to be the Bat permanently
WorstThingUS
12-18-2008, 04:06 PM
Devin's run wasn't nearly as bad as its made out to be and Dixon's wasn't nearly as good.
Blasphemer! Stone him! Stone him!
Fans were creeped out by Devin's unabashed fetishization for the character(if he were real she do him in a heartbeat) but at least she emphasized the dectective angle in a way that Dixon never did (For Dixon, Tim is the ace dectective and Dick's the ace acrobat).
Where exactly? I don't remember her playing up his detective skills any more than Dixon. Less, in fact.
The Dixon run also failed in not ultizing the Titans and thier villans enough. If Dick Greyson has an archenemy its Deathstroke. Cheshire works too as he's got a personal reason to want her in jail too.
The Titans are his family of choice and running buddies. If Nightwing needed tech, he could go to Cyborg for it and not necessarily Bruce. If he needs street level backup he could just go to Roy
That's probably because it's his solo title. It's like saying that Batman and Superman don't utilize the JLA enough or fight their villains enough. It doesn't happen in anyone's solo book so why should this be an execption? If anything, it was Grayson who didn't understand that when Dick was at the end of his rope against Blockbuster, he wouldn't resort to negligent homicide, but would call in his friends, because he's not Batman who wouldn't ask for JLA if he could avoid it. Probably because she was too busy having him raped on a rooftop. That's why the fetishsizing was a problem. It was at the expense of character.
Rev. Calibos
12-18-2008, 04:14 PM
I think that Nightwing is a great character that needs some time on his own to establish his own identity removed from the Bat Family and the Titans.
Looking at DC's offerings during the past few months we've seen NW in his own monthly, Batman, Detective, Robin, Titans, Batman and the Outsiders, and a handful of other appearances. (including Trinity/JLA/FC/etc.)
Now this is just my recent exposure to him, I started reading monthly books about a year ago and I happen to have all of those books on my pull list so I've seen quite a bit of him during the past year, lol.
That being said, I've been reading those titles since the start of RIP and I have no clue what's going on in his own title as that's been dedicated to RIP. In Titans they dealt with Raven's brothers and now they're dealing with Jericho, in Batman/Detecitve/Robin/Outsiders, again, dealing with RIP.
And sadly his own title is getting axed too. Once they've wrapped up Battle for the Cowl and he's settled into (hopefully) his own book again, perhaps we'll see further character development but as it is he's just a bit player in the larger story going on in the Batman titles.
Once the dust settles, the way to 'fix' Nightwing is to remove him from the Titans, keep him away from Gotham for a year or so and allow him to do his own thing.
I think that Nightwing is a great character that needs some time on his own to establish his own identity removed from the Bat Family and the Titans.
Looking at DC's offerings during the past few months we've seen NW in his own monthly, Batman, Detective, Robin, Titans, Batman and the Outsiders, and a handful of other appearances. (including Trinity/JLA/FC/etc.)
Now this is just my recent exposure to him, I started reading monthly books about a year ago and I happen to have all of those books on my pull list so I've seen quite a bit of him during the past year, lol.
That being said, I've been reading those titles since the start of RIP and I have no clue what's going on in his own title as that's been dedicated to RIP. In Titans they dealt with Raven's brothers and now they're dealing with Jericho, in Batman/Detecitve/Robin/Outsiders, again, dealing with RIP.
And sadly his own title is getting axed too. Once they've wrapped up Battle for the Cowl and he's settled into (hopefully) his own book again, perhaps we'll see further character development but as it is he's just a bit player in the larger story going on in the Batman titles.
Once the dust settles, the way to 'fix' Nightwing is to remove him from the Titans, keep him away from Gotham for a year or so and allow him to do his own thing.
So we've got people pulling for more guest stars, and people pulling for more solo action. There seems to be many ways to make Nightwing solid, but they're all so equally valid they come at the expense of the other approaches.
I was reading the old Alan Moore Vigilante stories and I was thinking that Fever would be a great addition to Dick's supporting cast, perhaps as a love interest.
mr.brighteyes
12-19-2008, 12:25 AM
What's wrong with Nightwing?
--Using Batman's villains
This always annoyed me. A hero has to have his own villans. I get tired of Bat's rouge gallery popping up in Night's book. And, related to that...
--Nightwing has no villains of his own worth mentioning.
Pretty much. It takes years--sometime decades--to establish a strong connection between a villain and hero. Nightwing hasn't had the time or personnel to do that (is Blockbuster still dead?)
--No mythology around Bloodhaven
Everyone knows Bats operates out of Gotham, Supes out of Metropolis, Spidey out of NY, etc., as a comic company you gotta find a way to distinguish a hero's city and make it (the city) theirs (the hero's). They didn't do that. I mean, Bloodhaven is a bad town, yeah, and? I felt like when Nightwing was there, it was never firmly established either WHY he was there (besides that it was too crowded in Gotham) or that he WAS a Bloodhaven-ite.
--No marquee story for Nightwing.
You know when someone starts a thread on a comic forum asking, "What books do I need to read for this character?" and for Bats everyone replies Year One, Long Halloween, etc.; and for Supes they say For All Seasons, etc. If someone started a thread like that for Nightwing, what would you say? MAYBE Year One, but I actually thought Nightwing's was the weakest of the Year One books. Not much else after that. You need big, famous arcs, especially in the graphic novel age. And connected to that
--Not many big name marquee writers and artists
Dixon is good but not really a big name or even necessarily a great writer (fun, but not great). Land is an OK artist. DC generally saves its big guns for other books, leaving Nightwing with more second tier writing and art talent.
I'm not sure DC really know what they are doing with Nightwing. Sometimes I wonder if they actually LIKE him...
I thought Nightwing year one was fantastic. its one of the few comic arcs I kept when I got rid of 95 percent of my collection.
Scavenger
12-22-2008, 01:16 PM
My problem with Nightwing (one of my favorite DC characters) is that ever since he got shoehorned back in to the bat universe, that's what he is.
He's Batman but less.
They stick him in Bludhaven, which is just like Gotham and make him a city protector of the worst city...but that's not Gotham.
They make him a beat cop, despite that he was a millionaire known from the tabloids for dating an alien supermodel. His best friend is the fastest man alive. His social circle includes a prince of Atlantis and an Amazon princess.
Yet, they stick in him in a book where he fights Blockbuster for 100 issues.
Nightwing should be DC's James Bond (the fun Brosnan one, not the angst Craig one). Jetsetting, globe spanning, high octane adventure. He's got Batman's skills, but without the baggage. Have one person at DC who has fun fighting crime.
And give the man his flying suit back!
Testament_X
12-22-2008, 04:35 PM
A good point has been brought up: He is not needed in a world or time where there is this Batman. SEND HIM TO THE FUTURE!
He realizes the only way he can become Batman is in a future where he is needed, so he goes 100 years into the future with help from one of his many DC "connections". In the future you can have reinventions of the rogue gallery for the villains, have him in Gotham City but the Batman died with Damian's interpretation which has ruined the reputation of it. A Gotham city that has forgotten Batman.
the-wolf
12-22-2008, 07:37 PM
A lot of the time when someone is jumping on to Nightwing they want to separate him from his formative years as Batman's Robin. I say thee nay!
Dick Grayson is a special character. He's not a sidekick anymore, but he's the famous of all sidekicks. His relationship with Batman is a unique one and even though it has evolved over the years, it's still an important part of who he is.
.
Exactly. It adds, rather than subtracts from his uniqueness.
the-wolf
12-22-2008, 07:44 PM
Nightwing should be DC's James Bond (the fun Brosnan one, not the angst Craig one). Jetsetting, globe spanning, high octane adventure. He's got Batman's skills, but without the baggage. Have one person at DC who has fun fighting crime.
And give the man his flying suit back!
It's what I thought they were doing during his first (or one of) mini when he got his latest suit. His mission was abroad and I thought, "Yes, finally an international hero who goes after the bad guys all over the world instead of being stuck in one city." The new suit seemed to fit. It was sleek, black, tactical and practical. Then, BOOM!, he's in Bludhaven, also known as the complete rip-off of Gotham City city, but even worse, that we've never heard of and that Batman's never bothered to go into even though they're basically attached to each other.
I still think that a combination of this and being returned to his roots is the way to go. Embrace the character's past, history and legacy, but do something unique with him. He certainly has access to the finances to do it.
I think part of the problem is that DC cannot make up their mind what to do with the character or the Titans. Those characters seemingly have been flipped 360 degrees a couple of times over since their 80s hey day.
The most logical way to develop Dick Grayson is to have him either in NYC leading the Titans, perhaps setting up NY as a main city of the DC Universe. I'd put Dick back into college then law school, playing off the path that the Earth 2 character followed.
If not that, I'd set him up in the DC and make him a main member of the JLA, since the Bat editors don't really want to use Batman in the book anyway. You could then perhaps play up him doing some espionage type work.
I was actually thinking that now would be the perfect time to do an Arsenal/Flash/Nightwing story talking about why Dick isn't in the JLA since he was their leader in the Titans - and coming to the conclusion that Dick works in a team if and only if he's the leader.
Vic Vega
12-23-2008, 08:57 AM
Where exactly? I don't remember her playing up his detective skills any more than Dixon. Less, in fact.
The only time Dick ever used his dectective skills in Dixon entire run is the single issue story where he solves a cold case. Most of the time he's played by Dixon as a cross between Spider-Man and Daredevil with Oracle doing his brainwork. Grayson's 'Wing was more of a strategist.
That's probably because it's his solo title. It's like saying that Batman and Superman don't utilize the JLA enough or fight their villains enough. It doesn't happen in anyone's solo book so why should this be an execption? If anything, it was Grayson who didn't understand that when Dick was at the end of his rope against Blockbuster, he wouldn't resort to negligent homicide, but would call in his friends, because he's not Batman who wouldn't ask for JLA if he could avoid it. Probably because she was too busy having him raped on a rooftop. That's why the fetishsizing was a problem. It was at the expense of character.
It irked me to no end that Dixon's Nightwing downplayed the Titans connection in comparison to the Batman connection to the extent that they dragged up the Dick/Babs attraction from the Bronze Age. It's not like Nightwing's villains are any good so you might as well use the more popular Titans baddies.
Bumping this thread 'cause I read the Prometheus one-shot and started thinking of Wrath - while Prometheus is the anti-Batman, I think the Wrath introduced in last year's Batman Confidential arc is a great anti-Nightwing, and I'd love for him to return!
Ed Brubaker + Alex Maleev = Iconic Nightwing
No Thanks.
After what Brubaker has done to Daredevil, I don't want to see him anywhere near Nightwing.
The main thing that's wrong with Nightwing is that everything he is... there's another guy who does that too... better.
Basically, he's Batman-lite.
He shouldn't be... but there you go. The reason he's not more popular than he is is that there's another bloke who's been there, done that before... only better.
A good writer would point out that this is Dick Grayson, Robin, the one who likes puns, bad jokes and witty quips. He should be funny. He should be the light-hearted swashbuckler, the hero who laughs at danger.
Unfortunately, everyone since he's become Nightwing has treated him as 'like Batman, but not as good'.
Whenever I see statements that Nightwing is 'Batman lite' I just laugh. It's facile and simplistic comparison.The only thing the two characters have in costume is their propensity to put on a costume and fight crime and the fact that they have no powers. You can use the same comparison to about two dozen other comic book characters.
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