R.I.P. "reception meter" - All readers please participate!

[Red_Knight]

First things first: If you won't post, please don't vote!

Hey everyone,

there's been a lot of discussion about the merits and flaws of R.I.P., and while I immensely enjoyed taking part in them (and still do), the sheer magnitude of it all has made it nearly impossible to really judge the overall reception of R.I.P.

Since I'm very interested in that, I thought we might attempt to find out in this thread, while discussions may continue elsewhere. I hope you'll all take five minutes to participate. In any case, I'm looking forward to tallying the results and hope to be able to present them here soon.


Here's the rules:

1. Everyone casts their vote in the poll
2. Everyone lists, in short, their likes and dislikes in regard to R.I.P. Don't elaborate, don't qualify, -- simply state them.
3. NO discussion or debate! If you think the guy above you is the greatest idiot since the inception of the internet, that's fine, but it doesn't belong in this thread. This is a place for everyone to have their say and be left alone.

(Mods: If you feel that this thread is too similar to others, feel free to delete it. I would like to see this experiment get off the ground, though.)

[Red_Knight]

Since I started this, I'll go first. I voted "Instant Classic".


Likes

* Great build-up throughout Morrison's run.
* Unique consolidation and reinterpretation of Batman's 70-year-history
* Amazing update to the character of the Joker
* Interesting new characters introduced (e.g. Dr. Hurt, the COV, the Black Glove)
* Intricate, multi-layered plot
* Daring, but logical reveal
* Great artwork


Dislikes

* sometimes stilted dialogue

[Immortal]

Pros
-Captivating story line
-Depicts the sheer determination/paranoia/insanity of Batman/Bruce
-Encompasses the Batman mythos as a whole

[nepenthes]

Likes
Keeps you guessing, it's not obvious
strips down and represents the 'pure batman' in all his various eras and styles
It's funny
Damian, the Joker, ninja manbats, bruce wayne, batmite, the whores and the pimp
The history bit
Deals signifigantly with a fundamental Batman question that's been emerging over the last two decades or so (he's a child)
Nice rhythm to the books, as with most Morrison stories (dialogue, action pacing, visuals etc)

Dislikes
Frustrating at times
No Poison Ivy
Average art (Daniels), often feels like a mismatch.
Kubert is very good but not really to my personal taste
Scheduling interruptions (Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul, Grotesque)
Jezebel was kind of boring, he's written better female fatales
Ties into Infinite Crisis (which is minor and it has to be expected, so I'll mostly forgive it)
Some more classic villains would be nice (Riddler, Catwoman etc, guest appearances would suffice)
Makes every other batbook look mundane
the reactions reveal alot of batman fans as being lower quality people
.

[40footwolf]

Pro's:

Intelligent
Didn't Hold Your Hand
Great characterization of the Joker
Ooodles and oodles of fun to look for all of the little hidden clues and meanings
Great art
Wonderful splicing of old continuity with new

Cons:

A helicopter crash? REALLY?
Having to put up with loud, obnoxious morons who want their hands to be held while they read a story
Could have been a little longer

[Vidocq]

Likes
1.The Basic pitch was really good.
2.The Clues hidden in plain sight.
3.The Idea that the 70 year history happen to one man, while hard to digest at first, it ended up being a clever plot device.
4.The Clown at Midnight was good short story (And is my favorite issue of his run).
5. It led to the Robin tie in that is bringing back one of My favorite Characters: Anarky.
6.The Joker's last line.
7. It was the perfect excuse for Heart of Hush and that was fking EPIC.
8. (Like Wolf said) it didn't ''Hold your hand''. That deserves props now a days.
9. It was refreshingly ambitious.
Dislikes
1.The BIGGEST SHOCK IN 70 YEARS that ended up being ''Satan did it''.
2. The use of pop psychology that made tabloid Advice columns look like Karl Jung.
3. Many disagree, but I think that Morrison lacked some much needed insight on human behavior in this particular story. Which made his characterization seem (For the lack of a better word) fake.
4. The Dialogue sometimes seemed Robotic.
5. The Black Glove's plan was very incompetent and they were practically praying for Murphy's law to bite them on the ass.
6. Jezebelle Jet. Just Jezebelle Jet. Even her name annoys me. What? Whoreofbabylon seemed to obvious?
7. Damian, but, unlike Jet, I might actually like this kid some day.
8. Created a Morrizombie epidemic that I hope one day will disappier.
9. Bruce not being Batman after it (I know it's temporary). Meh.
10. While I don't mind the fact that Batman fights the Supernatural, I would rather the supernatural not being such a damn fool.

[mofo]

instant classic...

LIKES
quite different type of batman story....quite different type of story in general
great character development
requires thinking to read
"batgod" batman

DISLIKES
too abstract at some points, i dont want to rely on the internet to understand stories
too vague

[JumpingJupiter]

I chose option 3:

Pros:
Art was half decent
basic concept is intriguing
I made my money back selling my copies on Kijiji.com

Cons:
Choppy, knotted, ambiguous writing (I like things streamlined)
References stuff I never heard of and will never care about
Attempt at the grandiose falls flat
Misleading marketing and promotion(RIP was not a self contained story but part of a larger arc. Did not contain the most shocking reveal in the past 70 years. The title RIP didn't even mean anything. Batman is not resting in peace. Unless the acronym stands for something else that was never revealed)
Attempt at locking this into continuity is stilted.
Lack of foreshadowing.
This was also under the wrong title. This should have been All Star Batman.
Some fans of the story arbitrarily belittle the intellect of those who did not like it.
Morison gets a free pass on his self promotional persona.

[Doc Goblin]

Likes:
- the concept of the Black Casebook, almost like Batman's own X-Files.
- the Batman of Zur En Arrh as a backup identity in the event of a successful psychological attack.
- "what is it about the sombrero? some things are just naturally funny"
- excellent writing of Batman as the world's greatest detective.
- some interesting faces in the Club of Villains.
- surprisingly good use of old continuity.
- ninja man-bats.

Dislikes:
- Jezebel Jet was too shallow a character to carry any weight as Batman's love interest or betrayer.
- an underwhelming and painfully disappointing answer to the question of who is the Black Glove.
- in no way believable or satisfying as the "end of Bruce Wayne as Batman."
- the Club of Heroes will never not seem lame.
- dialogue that is often overacting and "playing to the camera."
- all-around poor and cheap attempts at tie-ins.
- still unsold on Damien.
- poorly structured and hard to follow at several points.

[zur en arrh]

Likes:

-I love The Black Glove as a group.
-Great use of Batman's history.
-Made me ponder quite a bit, sparking great discussions and theories.
-The Joker's superb dialogue.
-Batman was written excellently. Him switching cups was one of the most badass things I have read in a while. And just him being the worlds greatest detective, figuring out everything that he did and setting up a backup personality, it was all great.
-Extremely suspenseful.
-All of the clues throughout.
-Introduction of Dr. Hurt, who may just be my new favorite villain.

Dislikes:

-Damien
-Club of Heroes
-The fact that the Glove *may* be Darkseid, and the fact that it ties into Final Crisis. I was fine with Hurt/The Glove being the ultimate evil, or "the devil".

I voted option one. If I personally let myself think that the story ended with 681, it will be my favorite Batman story. But if I continue reading the tie ins to Final Crisis, it will probably hinder my enjoyment of the entire run.

[lawman]

"Left me cold."

It had some good moments, but on the whole it was convoluted and cryptic, didn't deliver what it promised, and was ultimately pointless.

[GRANT!]

I feel like there should be 5 categories versus 3. I enjoyed it for the most part but I wouldn't say it's an instant classic.

[General Grievous]

some people didn't like it, But i'd defo call it classic stuff.

keep me hooked these last two years:)

[Bradley]

Instant classic here. Having given the matter some thought, I actually think this might have edged out the Steve Englehart work from the 70s to become my all-time favorite Batman story.

Likes:

1) The return of Bat-Mite, in a way that makes perfect sense.
2) Dynamic, exciting art.
3) Fantastic name for the femme fatale-- Jezebel Jet. Awesome.
4) Actual attention to plot and character development-- there's a sense that all of the major characters had their own arcs, each learned something, and every scene or piece of expository information actually mattered.
5) The story is actually a compelling, confusing mystery-- an adventure worthy of "the world's greatest detective."
6) The atmosphere-- I'm so sick to death of the "realistic" Batman. As far as I'm concerned, far too many writers have concerned themselves with the utterly preposterous notion that Batman can somehow be a psychologically realistic character. I'm ready to see Gotham's richest citizen dressed up like Dracula, beating up criminal circus freaks on the city's fog-enshrouded moors, like he did before everyone tried to mimic Frank Miller's take on the character. This story-- with its preoccupation with madness, hints of the supernatural, and just general darkness, reminds me of a 19th century gothic novel-- but with ninjas and psychotic clowns. Who doesn't love that?

Dislikes

As far as I'm concerned, there's very little to dislike about this story, although if this is Morrison's last Batman story, I guess I'm a little disappointed by my sense that I have to read the actual ending in Final Crisis. I mean, I'm reading and loving Final Crisis too, but it seems like it would be more appropriate for the concluding chapter of Morrison's Batman story to actually be in Batman, rather than another title. But DC can rectify this very easily by offering Morrison a pile of money to stay on the book indefinitely, so that this won't be his last storyline.

[discodicky]

Likes
1)The fact that it ties in to the rest of GM's run
2)Bat-mite!
3)The fact that it references my favourite silver age story- "Robin Dies at Dawn"
4)Zurr en arrh
5)General Silver Age craziness
6)Joker standing up to the black glove
7)Damien as comic relief
8)It underlined the fact that Batman ALWAYS has a plan

Dislikes
1)Some of Tony Daniel's art- I preferred Kubert earlier in GM's run
2)The fact that every book that had anything to do with Bats had an RIP banner
3)It overshadowed heart of hush
4)it made me buy an issue of the outsiders
5)It overshadowed a great Nightwing arc
6)The number of threads dedicated to it on CBR
7)Seemed like GM wanted a story but DiDio wanted an event. DiDio won that argument
8)The ending was a bit tame
9)The fact that even with all these criticisms I still spent a lot of money on it...
10)... and I'd happily spend it all again

[Rahul]

LIKE:

that it is somewhat a unique approach for an event.

that it shows how Batman comes out from the abyss and kick ass.

that there was some great art in it.

DISLIKE:

that only people who have only read Batman here and there cannot get the hang of this story(such as myself).

that the subtextual stuff went over my head and that I have to see a message board and the internet to figure out what the heck is up with it.

that the characterization is just not grabbing me in anyway possible, except the Joker's, and boy the Joker was very disturbing in this one, and a little way from his roots.....

that the plot with Damian is so simplistically ridiculous.

that the ending feels incredibly flat to me.

[PastePotPete]

Likes:
1.) Morrison's style where you have to put all the little pieces together like solving a puzzle. I think it works very well for Batman, a comic where flashbacks and mysteries are standard tropes.

2.) The inclusion of all of batman continuity, particularly stuff like Batmite and Zurr En Arh shown in a modern context.

3.) Tony Daniels art. The "Batman and Robin will never die!" panel is great. As is the pin-up of Nightwing holding the cape and cowl.

4.) The Club of Villains and the The Club of Heroes. Lots of great characters rescued from obscurity.

5.) Morrison's Joker.

Dislikes

1.) Morrison might be done on the title after 683?? :frown:

Yes, I'm a hardcore Morrisonite. Join us. Join us. Join us. Take the blue pill.

[Hatut Zeraze]

Likes:

1. After a zillion Batman stories, Morrison shows us there are new ways of challenging the character and putting him in grave danger.

2. The Black Glove & the Club of Villains = fun, new characters.

3. Puzzles and mysteries and clues all make for the kind of story in which DC's greatest detective should be enmeshed.

4. The secret of Bat-Mite, and the way Morrison found a way to use him in a serious, modern storyline.

5. Ditto for the Batman of Zur-en-arrh.

Dislikes:

1. Hmmm. I'm drawing a blank on this one.

[Lew Moxon]

I liked RIP. it isn't the greatest Batman story ever told, but its a good read. But at points, the discussions on it here and elsewhere were more enjoyable than the actual comic itself.

I would agree that it did not live up to its hype to some degree. (The ending wasn't the all time biggest shock.)

And I think it will probably read better as a cohesive whole rather than split up among the individual monthly comics.

[n2doop5u]

Likes:
Art
Batman with a bat
The idea of creating a second personality
SOME of the dialogue
"Imagination is the 5th dimension"
The Joker and how scary he is in this.
Batman finally going nuts.

Dislikes:
Underestimating the Joker... are people really still doing this?
Devil... not complete dislike, more of a meh.
Thomas Wayne

[Chiroptera]

Pros:
~ Good build up throughout the run.
~ Nice use of clues and hints through out the story.
~ Really liked the use of Bat-might
~Thought the three Batmen were interesting.


Cons:
~ Horrible Pop-psychology phrases and ideas.
~ Brought Batman back to the ridiculous "I can overcome ANYTHING with time to plan" status. Makes him feel less like a normal person in a mask and more like a Deus Ex Machina.
~ Failure to establish major characters left them feeling more like extras and stand-ins.
~ Damian Al Ghul/Wayne
~ General lack of use from the already well established Rogue's gallery batman has had for decades; in a story that was supposed to be all about using all of Batman's history, I found this to be particularly disappointing.
~ Didn't care for Daniel's art, particularly dislike the way he drew Batman.
~ Morrison's Joker.
~ Jezebel Jet being so drab and boring a character; way too much of a Bond Girl vibe.
~ Disappointingly bland "revelation" of who the Black Glove really is.
~ The Club of Heroes
~ The Club of Villains
~ The Black Glove members.
~ Bruce not being Batman.
~ Another Bond failure, ridiculous helicopter explosion ending.

[Maxwell Edison]

I may be flogged fo saying this but I have not read the RIP arc yet. It'll be released in a graphic novel form early next year, I'll buy it then

[HaroldAllnut]

LIKES
1. Grant Morrison's holistic treatment of Batman's continuity (read: everything counts)
2. The characterization of Bat-Mite as the Virgilesque guide to Bruce's Dante
3. Sandu Florea's coloring
4. The designs of the Club of Heroes and the Club of Villains were fantastic.
5. The dialogue between Batman and Bat-Mite deserves its own category
6. The Batman of Zur-En-Arrh was just plain cool.

DISLIKES
1. The Joker started out cool, and then turned into an extra from the Hellraiser series
2. Tony Daniel's art is too indistinct. In the issues where Nightwing and Robin appeared, I wouldn't have been able to distinguish them were it not for their costumes.
3. An open ending is understandable for something like this, but all the same... It felt a little too choppy.
4. The Club of Villains was hardly characterized except for Dr. Hurt and Le Bossu. Those were some fantastic, interesting characters, and it was a shame to see them cast aside as mere set pieces. C'mon DC!
5. Jezebel Jet's reveal/ending was a little too off.
6. Damian and Thalia just bugged the crap out of me.
7. Does Gordon know Batman's identity now? He kind of has to, right?

[frostedone]

Likes:

The art.
Morrison's Batman.
Morrison's Gordon.
Bat-mite.
The build up.

Dislikes:

Morrison's Joker.
The ending,
The revelation about Thomas Wayne, and what he did to Martha and Bruce left me very sour.
To many obscure Silver Age references.
Jezebel Jet as a character.
The Black Glove knowing Bruce's secret ID.
The Black Glove were just a bunch of rich C-listers.
The staff of Arkham knowing Dick's ID.

[Couchman]

Likes:

-Pushed the comfort zone of Batman comics
-Tried really hard to do something different - I think it succeeded wonderfully, some don't, but at least Morrison was taking the comic in new places, remarkable for a character that has been around as long as Bats
-Wasn't ridiculously decompressed a la everything Marvel does these days
-Gave me a lot to think about between issues about where the story was going
-I didn't have to read Nightwing, Robin, Outsiders, etc. to understand what was going on


Dislikes:
-The excessive delays
-Tony Daniel's art was uneven throughout, I think he's pretty good most times, but I would have liked to see someone a little better or at least more consistent
-The ending was a bit anti-climatic, but overall I liked the last issue a lot

[Lew Moxon]

My favorite part of the story was when Dr. Hurt was was standing over Bruce and asking him "Hello Bruce, remember me?"

And I liked how the story wrapped old stories I've read into the arc.

[Captain Jim]

First things first: If you won't post, please don't vote!

Not sure it's fair to say that, and it's certainly not enforceable.

(Mods: If you feel that this thread is too similar to others, feel free to delete it. I would like to see this experiment get off the ground, though.)

Well, this is the second time we've done a poll like this, but I guess we can let it stand. (Trying to combine two threads with polls causes everything to self-destruct.)

[SaintWalker]

Likes

It was a good end to Morrison's run, but also sets up the next issues
Exploring the mind set of Batman was great
Great interactions with the Joker
Batman kicking a$$, 'he knew all along' was awesome

Dislikes

Too much hype for what the story was! Would have enjoyed it much more without the expectation put to it, another mistake by DC editorial

[caboose]

Likes:

1) Did something different.
2) Damian Wayne.
3) That Batman of Zurr-En-Rah outfit was so awful it passed all the way back into awesome.

Dislikes:

1) Horrible to read at times.
2) For an arc that took almost two years to build up, anti-climax is an understatement.
3) Finally seeing who the Black Glove were and what their plan was. Talk about needlessly intricate.
4) Failed to see what the whole thing achieved aside from getting Batman out of the Batsuit. Bane's knee was far more effective and shocking the first time round.
5) Too many tie-ins.
6) Art was inconsistent.
7) At times it seemed to rely solely upon being different.
8) Bruce Wayne/Batman is now very removed from what made me like the character in the first place.
9) The "psychological" aspects are an insult to "pop" psychology.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Likes:

Bruce actually becoming "Bat"-man
Real badass Joker playing the Black Glove at their own game
"Will my father let me keep this car?"
Robin's fight with Pierrot Lunaire

Dislikes:

Not a damn thing...

[the goddamn batman]

I thought the idea of "this all happened to one guy" and incorporating old stories was the most interesting idea I'd heard for a Batman arc in a long time... instead of leaving your mark, it was using everyone's marks.

But in the end I found it to be a rather boring story that said it would be things I'm not sure it actually was.

Morrison's never been the best with endings, so... I kinda saw it coming and prepared for it.

[Arksy]

Likes:

-Zorro In Arkham - Zurr En Arrh the entire concept of coming up with a backup personality to counter a psychological attack is a very refreshing and origional concept that i haven't seen much of, and definitely not to this degree.

- The art was gorgeous apart from a few mishaps, the 'I bathe in flour' Joker and i thought that Damian looked more like a garden gnome but in all i still enjoyed it immensely.

- Heart of Hush, nuff said.

- Good for a second read, a lot of comics you read once and enjoy but don't really want to read again, this is one i read about four times.

Dislike:

- The devil

- The delays

- The tie in to the rubbish FC.

[TuPeT]

Instant Classic.

Clever build of story, good mysteries, and instiganting reading. But a helicopter crash was a turn off.

[Harding Prime]

I voted indifferent.

I really enjoyed the story leading up to RIP with the other Batmen, and the payoff in issue 674 I believe, where he was tied to the chair and his explanation of how he is always prepared.

But the end of RIP just left me cold and anti climatic. And that is doubled as we are to believe that FC Batman is Bruce Wayne, as we see his memories. I will wait for the final chapter to give my entire thoughts, but indifferent at this time.

[nuclearman]

I thought it was okay ... not a classic but maybe I have to read it again just to be sure - may develop a better appreciation second time around.

[Forseti]

Indifferent. I'm not a Batman fan to begin with, had no prior experience with many concepts and characters Grant dug up, and can't be bothered to 'wiki' it all up. Being a Morrison fan, I gave his Batman run a shot. In retrospect, I shouldn't have. Lesson learnt, I'll stick to creator owned/out-of-continuity Morrison work in the future.

[JBeckett]

I thought it was fantastic. Grant wrote a story that is going to hold up and be talked about for some time. The seeds were sown throughout his run for what this culminated in. Excellent stuff in my opinion.

[JBeckett]

I likes:

-Le Bossu talking to the Joker as he tells some of his background and thinking in the next to last issue of the arc.

-The issue with Robin and the collector guy with the helmet and the mime coming after him while Robin dips out on his motorcycle.

-Tony Daniel's best work to date.

-The "You blinked. I switched the cups. Old habit" line.

-The Joker taking it to the Black Glove, knowing Batman would handle things.

I loves:

-The line on page 3 of 676 when Hurt declares: "WE ARE OPERATORS OF THE HIGHEST LEVEL!"

[nepenthes]

ha ha I really liked that line too

[shaxper]

Likes
1. What looked like an attempt to weaken and annihilate Batman's characters ended up making him tougher and more bad-ass than he's ever been before.
2. A few truly fascinating moments where reality truly felt like it was bending while I read (particularly when Bat Mite first appears)
3. A nice and gutsy attempt to glimpse Batman's past and future (Bat Mite, League of Heroes, Robin Dies at Dawn, Batman #666).

Dislikes
1. The ending wasn't an ending. I resent being forced to read other titles to get the pay-off from a story I've been following for 26 months now.
2. The Joker is now Batman's bitch, a secondary character introduced for gags and exposition who is comically removed from the story when Damien (of all people!) accidentally drives him off a bridge. One of the genre's greatest antagonists has been reduced to nothingness.
3. Morrison goes too far in his experimentations with the genre. The Joker novellete really annoyed me, not because I was forced to read, but rather because I was forced to read truly poor prose. Grant's talents clearly don't extend to short story writing.
4. Too many loose ends. I've never seen Grant write a tight story. He introduces all of these mysterious elements designed to confuse you, and only a few seem to convalesce at the end.
5. "I was acting!" Oh boy. Are you really going to pull out that lame excuse, Grant?
6. Fans praising the story for encompassing Batman's 70 year history. You haven't read anywhere near enough of his history if you think that Bat-Mite, the League of Heroes, and Robin Dies at Dawn are a reasonable representation of all that Batman was prior to the present day.

[4thHorseman]

Classic

Likes:
Something new and refreshing
Trying to make everything in his history make sense
The Joker
How badass Batman was
the mystery behind the Black Glove
didn't dumb itself down for the readers
Batmite

Dislikes:
Delays
Pacing could be slow in parts
Revelation of Jezebel (not so shocking)
Felt like it didn't wrap up entirely like it should have
Tie-Ins weren't really Tie-Ins
Art in places

[Kiryu]

I voted instant classic, because well it is.

Liked
How it just ties perfectly into the rest of Morrison's run, all of which built to this point.
Dr Hurt, whoever he is, is a very haunting villain. The scenes with him wearing Thomas Wayne's "Bat-Man" costume just give me chills.
The Batman of Zur-En-Arrh. Everything about it, the costume, the feeling that Bruce in ZEA mode was capable of anything, the concept behind it "creating a back up personality" just brilliant stuff.
The Black Glove, I just love the idea of Super Rich using their money and power to just commit the most depraved acts you'd ever think of.
The Three Ghosts of Batman, The Miracle on Crime Alley, The Machine to Make Batman, all of these concepts come together in RIP and add so much depth to the story.

Dislikes
Jezebel Jet, she just seemed pointless. We saw little to nothing of their relationship to buy it was "true love" before she was revealed as a villain, and we only got the one panel hint that Bruce knew she was a bad girl.