Batman #682 (spoilers)

[koshunter]

http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album.php?aid=24477

...what's going on?

[DarKye]

Julie Madison? Nice.

This looks like it's going to be a really interesting issue.

[koshunter]

I quickly glanced over it before but the title is "The Butler Did It".

Just a question, is he recounting the dream or is it a mix of both the dream and reality?

[Death by Mime]

Just a question, is he recounting the dream or is it a mix of both the dream and reality?

I'm assuming he's referring to the actual events there. You don't say 'It could have been worse' when talking about a dream and then speculate on the other possibilities. You just talk about the dream itself.

Alfred's a snarky bastard, isn't he.

[ZT4]

Bruce going "Power Ranger" is too funny for words.

[vazel]

rofl at 'it could have been worse'.

[Retro315]

I like the Moth costume ... to Alfred, I suppose Bruce dressing in Bat-Gear, at least inspiration-wise, isn't all that different from Killer Moth. Still hilarious ...

First few pages of the story of Batman as recounted by Alfred ... interesting. The follow up to RIP ... interesting. Still, the first few pages ... not much to go by just yet ... I like the art.

Is this month the "Two Batman in one month" month?

[AJM]

I quickly glanced over it before but the title is "The Butler Did It".

Just a question, is he recounting the dream or is it a mix of both the dream and reality?

The solicitations said it was Alfred's versions of events as he lay on his death bed, so he seems to be having trouble remembering things as they actually happened. Expect a completely unreliable and vague account of what just happened in RIP.

"The Butler Did It." Is Morrison winding us up already with just the title? ALFRED IS THE BLACK GLOVE!

Only joking. Here we go again...

[A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.]

Jeez. DC aren't really even bothering with the art on this title, are they? I mean, Daniel is one thing, but why don't they try to get som a-level talent for the fill-ins, at least? Batman is one of their top-selling books. It should have a top artist.

[Thursaiz]

I'm interested to see where Alfred's loyalties are in a situation where Bruce is gone. If he is loyal to the family, does that make Damian his new employer? I guess in a technical sense it depends on Bruce's legal will?

[Sidepocket]

Funny stuff. This is more up Morrison ally, this trippy sense of writing. However, I just wish the art was less serious and realistic to represent that.

This should be much more fun and engaging than RIP was. What he should have done in the first place. In fact, I would not be surprised if all this BS before was just him getting to this point so he could actually write what he wanted to write in the first place?

[Retro315]

I'm interested to see where Alfred's loyalties are in a situation where Bruce is gone. If he is loyal to the family, does that make Damian his new employer? I guess in a technical sense it depends on Bruce's legal will?

Damian was grown in a tank, has been killed and put back together via mad science already, and we don't know if Talia was ever actually pregnant, or if Damian is simply a clone using both of their DNA.

Tim Drake, on the other hand, is Bruce Wayne's adopted son. That would supercede illegally cloned kids who aren't on any record as ever having been born, have no birth certificate, and were probably artifically aged too.

[frostedone]

Jeez. DC aren't really even bothering with the art on this title, are they? I mean, Daniel is one thing, but why don't they try to get som a-level talent for the fill-ins, at least? Batman is one of their top-selling books. It should have a top artist.

The art is fine. What do you think is wrong with it? I am just curious.

[A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.]

The art is fine. What do you think is wrong with it? I am just curious.

It's perfectly serviceable mainstream super hero comic book art. But DC should aim higher than that on their top books. I know Marvel is stealing most of the talent these days, but there are still plenty of good artists available for fill-in gigs like this. Especially since it's Morrison. His scripts suffer when illustrated with less than a seeming total mastery of the visuals.

[carabas]

It's perfectly serviceable mainstream super hero comic book art. But DC should aim higher than that on their top books. I know Marvel is stealing most of the talent these days, but there are still plenty of good artists available for fill-in gigs like this. Especially since it's Morrison. His scripts suffer when illustrated with less than a seeming total mastery of the visuals.It's not just perfectly serviceable, it is tons better tha the art on R.I.P.
What is wrong with perfectly serviceable art? All the real A-list artists do a book every three or four months or so, and they're all tied up in various projects (and a lot of them are a lot worse than Whatsisname who does #682).

Also, I spot the words "Grant Morrison: writer" there, so how is this a fill-in book? It's Neil Gaiman and Andy Kubert (and whomever they found for Battke For The Cowl) who pulled filler duty.

[A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.]

It's fill-in art, seeing as it's not pencilled by the book's regular artist. And from what I know, Tony Daniel is both writing and pencilling Battle for the Cowl. By the way, having seen quite a few pencil-only samples of Daniel's work, I'm starting to think that the inking is a big part of my problem with his Batman work.

[davepaton]

I personally think the art looks really good. Although I'd say that Bruce doesn't look young enough. Liked the Julie Madison cameo. The Moth thing at the end is hilarious. I must have missed that page in year one...

[chrisgiff]

I thought Denny O'Neill was doing the Last Rights stuff?

[Sidepocket]

Also, I spot the words "Grant Morrison: writer" there, so how is this a fill-in book? It's Neil Gaiman and Andy Kubert (and whomever they found for Battke For The Cowl) who pulled filler duty.

Uh, that is not filler. They are two different projects. It is filler in the same way "What ever happened to the Man of Tomorrow" is, which it is not.

Although I do agree with the art is bland, I think this is an industry wide problem. We need more Ben Templesmiths and David Macks, not people who just copy Jim Lee's art all day. It's like the '80s all over again. :frown:

[dreyga2000]

I thought Denny O'Neill was doing the Last Rights stuff?

First we get a Grant Morrison 2-parter in Batman, then Denny will have a two parter starting in Detective ending in Batman, Dini will have a two pater starting in detective ending in Batman, then Neil does What ever happened to the Caped Crusader?

[Karl O'Neill]

Denny o'neill's two parter is called last days of gotham, can't wait for it.

Then we get Paul dini'd two part catwoman/hush story!

Lee garbet's art looks great to me from the preview.

[Kiryu]

Well. I'm excited for the last two issues of Morrison's run. I really hope Denny and Gaimen bring their best. I'm really excited about Last Days of Gotham, Dini's Hush story could go either way, and I am trying not to think about WHttCC because WHttMoT is one of my favorite stories. C'mon DC, Whatever Happened to the World's Finest hardcover!

Anyway, I'm going to miss the level of discussion Morrison's run has brought about with RIP, thank you to all the powers who lent their insights. Here's hoping Denny and Gaimen give us lots more to talk about.

[Mat001]

This is "Last Rites" which has always been written by Morrison. It's recounting Bruce's life and we'll see what happened to him while he was a captive of the Evil Gods. Then it goes into "Last Days Of Gotham" which is by O'Neil. Then we have "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader" by Gaiman. Then it is "Battle For The Cowl". Tony Daniel didn't do this issue and next issue in order to get ahead on BFTC.

[Kiryu]

This is "Last Rites" which has always been written by Morrison. It's recounting Bruce's life and we'll see what happened to him while he was a captive of the Evil Gods. Then it goes into "Last Days Of Gotham" which is by O'Neil. Then we have "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader" by Gaiman. Then it is "Battle For The Cowl". Tony Daniel didn't do this issue and next issue in order to get ahead on BFTC.

In between "Last Days of Gotham" and "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader" we have a Hush/Catwoman two-parter by Dini.

[AlistairCrane]

Is this month the "Two Batman in one month" month?
There's actually three issues of Batman coming out this month: The two-part Morrison Final Crisis tie-in, and the conclusion of Denny O'Neil's two-parter that starts in 'Tec.

[Retro315]

I'm beginning to see that DC obviously felt that the "end of Batman" deserved a "goodbye" from some top writers, and appropriately, gave Denny O'Neil and Neil Gaiman the spots.

Anyway, it feels like the same idea applies to artists - following Morrison's lead, Denny and Neil are giving Batman his proper send-off ... and being that it's two separate authors, we get two more artists. It's definitely enough to miss the days of cohesiveness when one artist had the whole thing covered. That's what fans seem to really go for ... the cohesive feeling you get when one artist jams an entire run.

Anyway, like somebody said ... the art is servicable. And if it's not quite up to Tony Daniel in those pages, there's almost 20 more to see if the guy is one-trick or if he's got some great art up his sleeve. And at the very least, it's complimentary to Daniel's work ... if it's all in the same GN some day the transition from R.I.P. to Last Rites won't be jarring in any way. And that counts for something these days ...

COUGH ... Final Crisis ...

[Chad]

I like the little bell Bruce is holding delicately in his hand on page two.

While it's probably a minor detail to most fans, it always bugged me that the "I shall become a bat" moment was revised so that the event became more of a Godly summons with the bat smashing through a window as opposed to what Finger and Kane came up with. I'm impressed that the distinction between the two origins is something Morrison felt important enough to mention.

I don't understand the reference to Alfred tending his resignation though. Does this relate to a particular story?

[Mat001]

Alfred had quit during "Knightquest: The Search", but it could be in reference to another time yet to be told.

[AlistairCrane]

So the majority of this issue takes place in Bruce's mind. There's a parasitic being in there called the Lump who is messing things around, trying to use Bruce's memories to create copies of Batman for the Evil Gods. Yes, they want an army of "evil" Batmen.

Some may think this issue tries to retcon Kathy Kane back into existence, but considering this issue is taking place in Bruce's mind with the Lump in there messing things up, I'd say that nothing we see in Bruce's mind should be interpreted as "the truth".

Also, the next issue box in DC Nation says #683 concludes Grant Morrison's run on Batman. Hmmm...

[ZT4]

Also, the next issue box in DC Nation says #683 concludes Grant Morrison's run on Batman. Hmmm...

Hedging their bets?

Speaking of bets, start taking 'em now.

[chapattack]

...why has there never been a villan called 'the lump' before? Can we look forward to 'the bump' and 'the graze' as henchmen?

[carabas]

There's a parasitic being in there called the Lump...Morrison brought back The Lump? Awesome. Now if he can just fit Transilvane in there somewhere...

[Thok]

Incidentally, this seems to be a partial origin story for the army of Batmen that Kara met in the future in Supergirl 27.

[bjtrdff]

I just finished reading it, and it's a fantastic read. I'm assuming this is the bridge from RIP to Final Crisis (especially from the last page), but it seems to jump over from missing/dead RIP Batman to Batman as we saw in FC.

[chapattack]

Yes - it was indeed a cracking read. I some think Morrisons is at his best in his shortest stories - where he doesn't give his ideas enough room and they push outwards at the frames on the page. Maybe RIP should have been 3 parts instead of 6...
Either way... looking forward to 683 or as DC put it on the back page 'the intriguing conclusion to Grant Morrison's recent run on Batman.' - will the whole of RIP be some Lump induced 'Prisoner' style attempt to break the Batman?
Is Hurt just a dream version of Lump? Both are trying to make new Batmen... could there be a link?

Ashamed to say I hadn't heard of Lump before this... hadn't actually read the Fourth World trades... but found some nice summations and readings of character/plot on http://fourthworldfridays.blogspot.com/2008/05/mister-miracle-8-battle-of-id.html - if anyone else out there is in the same shameful possition of not being up on their Kirby....

[DarKye]

This issue was great. It was nice seeing Batman actually smiling.

It's kinda funny that people were talking in other threads about how the 50s and 60s couldn't be taken into continuity or how Batman would never trust people enough to undergo the isolation experiment and here we have Morrison showing us exactly how everything fits together and another reason that motivated him to go through with the experiment.

[chapattack]

This issue was great. It was nice seeing Batman actually smiling.

It's kinda funny that people were talking in other threads about how the 50s and 60s couldn't be taken into continuity or how Batman would never trust people enough to undergo the isolation experiment and here we have Morrison showing us exactly how everything fits together and another reason that motivated him to go through with the experiment.

And that is why Morrison is the man. He doesn't overlook continuity or dismiss it in favour of what he's doing or what he wants... but uses it to grow his stories in and satisfies those who know the old stories as well as those who don't...
Long may he rock.

[A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.]

Jeez, the Lump?!? G-Mo straight trippin'! I will, of course, refrain from making a final comment on this run before it finishes, but I am starting to get the feeling that this stuff isn't backed by the ingenious masterplan I always imagined. The Lump? This has to come together in an Invisibles-type conclusion to make any sort of sense.
I just hope someone will put this online soon, so I won't have to wait another week to read it (still haven't got my copy of #681). The Norwegian postal system always breaks down come christmas. Did I already say "Jeez! The Lump?!?"?

[Samuraixsithlord]

the whole issue takes place in Batman's head as he is being tortured in Command Bunker D during FC

[ThunderWolf!!!]

Is this Batman Bruce Wayne?

[Mercurialblonde]

the whole issue takes place in Batman's head as he is being tortured in Command Bunker D during FC


arguably the whole run. Not just this issue. Since Batman started dealing with Hurt like at the beginning of Morrison's run, I think.

Which I think is wildly fantastic and works in a really great meta way.

[IvCNuB4]

Is this Batman Bruce Wayne?

Somebody's not paying attention ...

[DarKye]

arguably the whole run. Not just this issue. Since Batman started dealing with Hurt like at the beginning of Morrison's run, I think.

Which I think is wildly fantastic and works in a really great meta way.

I seriously don't see that happening, but I'm gonna have to agree it's a really great idea and would be rather awesome, even if people started calling it a cop-out.

[Mercurialblonde]

I seriously don't see that happening, but I'm gonna have to agree it's a really great idea and would be rather awesome, even if people started calling it a cop-out.

If it's not you still have to find just where in time it all takes place. I know the skies turned colors at a point in Morrison's run.

[Jkid099]

Just read it as well. Hopefully they do explain how we went from "Batman R.I.P." to this juncture. Obviously Darkseid's minions didn't "pull" Bruce out of the waters after the helicopter explosion or anything as he showed up a'okay in the first few issues of Final Crisis.

Good issue otherwise, though. Looking forward to the next one.

Interesting phrase for the solicitation of the next one - "The intriguing conclusion to Grant Morrison's RECENT run on Batman." Would otherwise imply that this is it, except it says "recent" which may indicate that he's just gone until Batman and Detective Comics start up again after their "hiatus."

[koshunter]

Stupid me, when I read it, I thought the scene at the end took place 10 years ago after or during the isolation experiment. However, rereading and reading the discussion here has cleared that for me. Aside from the end, I was really confused the first time around, thank god for the internet and re-readings.

[Xevious]

I think it sounds like a great idea. It would be awesome if it had something to do with the proposed cancelling of other batman family titles as well. How would we explain Robin and the outsiders stuff if just the Batman/Detective run was in his head?

[Mercurialblonde]

What if Robin, Nightwing, and Birds of Prey are just plots in Bruce's insane brain?

[AlistairCrane]

What if Robin, Nightwing, and Birds of Prey are just plots in Bruce's insane brain?

That would give me a really good reason to never read DC again!

[mofo]

so i just read the issue 2 more times...
can someone please explain wtf is going on?
seriosuly, i didnt understand this issue at all (except the ending....kinda)

[Maestro]

so i just read the issue 2 more times...
can someone please explain wtf is going on?
seriosuly, i didnt understand this issue at all (except the ending....kinda)

Batman is having a weird dream, going through altered versions of his real life comic book history in his head (you know, golden age Batman, silver age Batman, etc). they're not real. just dreams.

To me this definitely made more sense than those wacky RIP issues. though I'm not sure why Clayface randomly appeared at times

[Kiryu]

Batman is having a weird dream, going through altered versions of his real life comic book history in his head (you know, golden age Batman, silver age Batman, etc). they're not real. just dreams.

To me this definitely made more sense than those wacky RIP issues. though I'm not sure why Clayface randomly appeared at times

Because it wasn't Clayface, it was a Lump, a telepathic New God.

[JohnnieFantasmo]

I'm pretty sure that RIP really happened. Now this is just me, but after reading this issue I'm starting to think that all those theories about Bruce being the Black Glove himself may be true. Mangrove Pierce? Technically, yeah, but he was just a hired hand (Bruce himself hired his father's double to play the role of Thomas Wayne). The Devil? Could be. But rather than the mythical devil we all know and love, what if it's just Bruce's devil?

What if, while in the sensory deprivation experiment, Bruce's mind split and that scar on his subconscious (represented by the thing on Bat-Mite's back) became another personality altogether, and this "unseen, ultimate enemy" is the real mastermind behind the Black Glove?

It jives with both the Mangrove Pierce AND the Devil possibilities, and forcing himself to fight an unseen enemy (one trying to create evil Batmen, no less) would also give Bruce some necessary experience to deal with his current predicament at the end of this very issue.

Batman thinks of everything, after all. Was "Simon Hurt" just a kind of practise run Bruce set up for himself for this very moment?

This isn't what I whole heartedly believe is happening necessarily. Some things don't make sense about it, but it's hard to make much sense out of anything that's going on right now. But I'm sure having fun trying to figure it out!

[Retro315]

Weird issue ...

First weird thing I noticed, after laughing about "The Curtain" ... was that Alfred says "I imagine that one HURT considerably" with "hurt" in bold. Which later the Lump says aloud when Bruce remembers Simon Hurt's introduction. Won't really know if that matters until next issue, I guess ...

Love the bits where Batman gets a sidekick and all of a sudden crime becomes "pop crime" and even psycho killers like Joker are getting in on the new crimes. Alfred's toybox reference was great. The Black Casebook part though ... which ultimately is where Batman keeps his files on those zany Silver Age stories ... I suppose he wonders if the world lightening up is a fantasy scenario?

When the Batwoman part hits I almost think Batman is remembering Earth-2. In fact, Earth-2 being Silver Age Earth ... isn't the Black Casebook kind of a literal "memories of Earth-2" collection?

Dick talks about "not trusting Batwoman, or Batgirl either". Thinly veiled Dick Grayson's future relationships with women analogue aside ... since neither of them existed on New Earth, Robin pointing out he doesn't trust them is Bruce's way of recognizing that "hey, there's something wrong here in my memory ... that isn't right". Barbara Gordon, Cassandra Cain, or Kate Kane sure. But Kathy Kane and Bette Kane? Not so much.

The Lump is a New God I'd never heard of before. I really need to run through Kirby's stuff ... still, anything involving New Gods and Batman on the same page strikes me as weird still. But it's nice to get a bit of Final Crisis and know what they're doing to Batman up there while Dan Turpin is awakening as Darkseid.

Again, Dick is the one in Bruce's memory who points out that Alfred is not Alfred.

That Silver Age flashback panel is awesome. The ERASER! Never thought I'd see him in a modern Batman comic ...

Even in Batman's memory it's strange how Dick goes from 16 to suddenly being 18 and sporting a Nightwing costume. It really is almost like Batman is starting to remember discrepancies from Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Batman's actually doing detective work in his own head, and next issue he might even break free of The Lump. Crazy ... cool, too. But Lump gets back in control and we get an interesting vision of a world without Batman ... I like that he's uninterested and Thomas Wayne has to deal with the fallout from Joker's first appearance.

Mokkari looks pretty cool in the artwork. Smoking a cigarette, being mad scientist-like, with all those clone vats in Bludhaven ...

Weird ...

[IvCNuB4]

When the Batwoman part hits I almost think Batman is remembering Earth-2. In fact, Earth-2 being Silver Age Earth ... isn't the Black Casebook kind of a literal "memories of Earth-2" collection?
...

Wasn't pre-COIE Earth-2 actually considered the Golden Age (the1940s and 50s) ?

[mofo]

starting to make a lot more sense now...
i dont think morrison would take a dump on us by saying "RIP was all in his head lawlz!"
he can't.....DC wouldn't allow it either....i mean....honestly...its just not a good idea....

[TuPeT]

Well I understand it this way.

As you can see, there is not one person telling the story, there are lots of point of views. That's because Lump is trying to comprehend Batman's story and motivation that turned him into the fantastic crime-figther and outstanding hero. By doing this he and the other two minions of Darkseid can use it to make an army of Evil Batmen that compromise to the anti-life as Batman is compromised to his cause.

In other words: Batman is the man!! And even Darkseid knows it!!!

Now, we don't know how long he is trapped, and how he got there.

[AlistairCrane]

Now, we don't know how long he is trapped, and how he got there.

He was kidnapped in Final Crisis #3.

[koshunter]

That still raises the question:

What happened between R.I.P and FC #3 to Bruce?

Hopefully the next issue will give us some more answers.

[pariah-1972]

I didn't understand a bit of it but i enjoyed it immensly.

I think everyone should take a hit of acid before reading anything written by Morrison.

[AlistairCrane]

I didn't understand a bit of it but i enjoyed it immensly.

I think everyone should take a hit of acid before reading anything written by Morrison.

I heard that if you take acid, your eyes will pop out of your head.

[pariah-1972]

I heard that if you take acid, your eyes will pop out of your head.Hmmm do they make comic books in braille?

[DeadXMan]

looks like I picked the wrong day to quite popping acid while I read comics

[TuPeT]

He was kidnapped in Final Crisis #3.

Yep, I know. I meant what happened to him after RIP, how long was he out, and why until the time of FC...

[Josepito]

Anybody catch that line where it possibly alludes to Bruce's fate and the ones that might have a...hand in it?

"The way you're punishing yourself, you'll be dead in six months. That's not what they wanted."

[TuPeT]

"They" was refered to Bruce's parents.

[ZT4]

starting to make a lot more sense now...
i dont think morrison would take a dump on us by saying "RIP was all in his head lawlz!"
he can't.....DC wouldn't allow it either....i mean....honestly...its just not a good idea....

The supporting cast pretty much go through the wringr in RIP, so I doubt all of it was in Bruce's head, especially when the tie-ins reference events like Dick's stint in Arkham. Bruce was definatly Zurr-En-Ahhh in the "real" world.

Everything else before RIP probably happened to him, with the breakdown of his mind sowing the seeds into reality, but RIP itself is the realization of the dangers of his back-up personalities going on overload, Bat-Mite, Hurt...Jezebel Jet could even have been a persona (which is scarier to contemplate)...and my favourate notion...The Joker himself had become a back-up personality

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

What if Robin, Nightwing, and Birds of Prey are just plots in Bruce's insane brain?

You so crazy.


I'm starting to think Morrison comes up with these disconcerting plots just so he can write as abstract and confusing as possible.

Not that I didn't enjoy the issue, but I guess I'd just really like to see Grant write a more "straightforward" Batman story at some point.


Though, compared to the rest of his run, The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul would be considered pretty straightforward...

:frown:

...Nevermind...

[Red_Knight]

This was a solid "B"-issue in my book; -- not terribly shocking or unexpected, but certainly a lot of fun. I love seeing Morrison integrate the various interpretations of Batman into one logical history, so obviously I liked this issue.

As for R.I.P. being all in Bruce's head, I don't see it. That would be an editorial slip-up of epic proportions. After all, Heart of Hush over in 'Tec explicitly mentions Jezebel and The Black Glove; Two-Face comments on Dick's stay in Arkham in Nightwing; the Outsiders receive a video message from Hurt, and the list of goes on. Logically speaking, R.I.P. can't be a dream.

I'm almost sure #683 will tell us how Bruce made it from the exploding helicopter to FC. At the end of #682, we are already up to his first meeting with Hurt, so I think the next ish should have more than enough room to shed light on the recent past and give us a few glimpses of the future.

Looking forward to it!

[Mat001]

That still raises the question:

What happened between R.I.P and FC #3 to Bruce?

Hopefully the next issue will give us some more answers.


It's supposed to. It's probably not all that terribly exciting. And Bruce was captured in issue 2, not 3. He didn't imagine "R.I.P." as I understand it. He's just remembering all these events as Lump is trying to help the Evil Factory with their plans and it's not as easy as it seems. My guess is that by the time this is done, the Batman persona will either be fragmented or removed from Bruce.

[Karl O'Neill]

Just read this issue.The art and writing were both equally fantastic.

some masterfull writing here, Loved all the retro stuff layered in here to great effect.

favourite line *what would you have called yourself if a bat hadn't crashed through the windom?" The Curtain! :)

I bet next issue will bridge the Gap between RIP conclusion and FINAL CRISIS #2.
I have Final crisis #2 in my hands now, Batman is captured by granny Goodness in her Alpha lantern avatar,

So i guess Darksied and his minions got hold of batman after the helicopter crash, done something to his mind, and then kidnapped him again?

sounds very intricate,I trust Grant will explain all next issue.

Then Batman's fate will be concluded in Jan in Final crisis #6.

[Karl O'Neill]

As for R.I.P. being all in Bruce's head, I don't see it. That would be an editorial slip-up of epic proportions. After all, Heart of Hush over in 'Tec explicitly mentions Jezebel and The Black Glove; Two-Face comments on Dick's stay in Arkham in Nightwing; the Outsiders receive a video message from Hurt, and the list of goes on. Logically speaking, R.I.P. can't be a dream.


No, The Lump is replaying recent events in batman;'s head as well, when he first met simon hurt ect ect.

so RIP really happened.

[AlistairCrane]

RIP really happened, but what we're seeing in this issue (the memories) didn't really happen outside of Bruce's head. For example, the only Batwoman that has existed is the current Kate Kane lesbian Batwoman. So the Batwoman we see here is a modified memory/hallucination. Also, Julie Madison went to Africa, not Hollywood. Remember, the Lump is poking around in there not just walking through Bruce's memories as they happened, but "converting memories". We see this towards the end when we see a "memory" of Bruce with his parents alive. The Lump is in there manipulating and distorting memories to create the perfect army of evil Batmen.

[Karl O'Neill]

Did the Bronze Tiger kill katy kane? when he beat batman up as well?

[AlistairCrane]

Did the Bronze Tiger kill katy kane? when he beat batman up as well?

Pre-Crisis he did, but that was retconned out of continuity.

[HopeLantern]

Loving Morrison's run on the title... don't understand a dang bit of it, but loving the run! He has made me really fall in love with the Batbooks, when before I wasn't even reading DC comics. "Last Rites" is off to a great start. Can't wait for "Whatever Happened..."

[Karl O'Neill]

Loving Morrison's run on the title... don't understand a dang bit of it, but loving the run! He has made me really fall in love with the Batbooks, when before I wasn't even reading DC comics. "Last Rites" is off to a great start. Can't wait for "Whatever Happened..."

what exactly don't you understand about it?

just asking, I mean, you love it clearly, but is there anything i can help you with?

[flapjaxx]

Yeah this was a great issue. I think there's still some unanswered questions about what the exact nature of this dream is, but the orchestration of this is wonderful. So much information conveyed through the minimum amount of words and panels. And so many expectations were brought up and then smashed:
-The title of the issue is "The Butlet Did It", which causes us to think "Oh Alfred had something to do with the events of RIP?" Nope, it's just that the figure of the Butler is Darkseid's mole within this artificial dream in which to trap/break Bruce (right?).
-We see the Lump and at first it seems like it was being used by Hurt ten years ago, and that it could represent the Bat-Mite that we've seen (the supposed "oldest friend"?), but then it's revealed that the Lump is being used by Darkseid and that the "oldest friend" in question is Alfred (right?).

You really do need to be almost an expert in Bat-lore to catch all the references and appreciate this to the fullest, but, wow, what an arrangement. No one writes false dream sequences like Grant Morrison (see JLA issue 7 or 8).

[Karl O'Neill]

The artist lee garbett is quite a catch, he will work with Peter tomasi on outsiders next year, which should be good.

Points to anyone who can name all the villains in the flashbacks/dreams that the lump is wading through?

The obscure ones i mean, not the joker, Hurt, or penguin.

BTW, batman in the killer moth suit was badass, in a freaky funny kinda way.

I love the way batman took those power naps and when he woke at 12, he figured out a particular case he was working on.

"HM. Of Course. Doctor Death was supplied by Apex Chemical.

Love the compliment ROBIN gets. somebody should show Chris Nolen this piece of writing.

*It was as if a color had come to our monochrome lives. No secret deathwise could survive contact with that "Blitz of a Boy", who always seemed to be everywhere at once.

love the hamlet, laertes as batman and the joker, and the blade envenom.

[pariah-1972]

No matter what you think of this issue you cant deny that Morrison seemed to be having fun writing it.

Anyways can someone explain the beginning cause i thought that was supposed to represent the post helicopter accident and would explain why his face is all cut up.

Also why does this Lump dude look exactly like Clayface?

[DarKye]

Anyways can someone explain the beginning cause i thought that was supposed to represent the post helicopter accident and would explain why his face is all cut up.

The first pages are straight out of Year One, Bruce is sitting in his studio thinking he needs to find a way to make criminals fear him after he gets his ass handed to him when he tries to help someone as a civilian, then a bat crashes through the window and sits on a statue. The rest is history.

[Karl O'Neill]

No matter what you think of this issue you cant deny that Morrison seemed to be having fun writing it.

Anyways can someone explain the beginning cause i thought that was supposed to represent the post helicopter accident and would explain why his face is all cut up.

Also why does this Lump dude look exactly like Clayface?

Ask the other masterstoryteller. jack kirby

http://s228.photobucket.com/albums/ee223/Prankster36/Fourthworld39b.jpg

[pariah-1972]

Ask the other masterstoryteller. jack kirby

http://s228.photobucket.com/albums/ee223/Prankster36/Fourthworld39b.jpgWow he doesn't look anything like Clayface there !
way to do research guy who drew this issue :mad:

[pariah-1972]

The first pages are straight out of Year One, Bruce is sitting in his studio thinking he needs to find a way to make criminals fear him after he gets his ass handed to him when he tries to help someone as a civilian, then a bat crashes through the window and sits on a statue. The rest is history.

I guess they should take away my bat-club pass now eh?

[ThunderWolf!!!]

Somebody's not paying attention ...

Yup.So explain please.

[zur en arrh]

I am ashamed to say that, like others, I have no idea what I just read. Is this all just "Lump" going through Bruce's memory or something?

[Karl O'Neill]

Wow he doesn't look anything like Clayface there !
way to do research guy who drew this issue :mad:

jack Kirky drew it, same guy who drew captain america and all the new gods stuff at dc.

[pariah-1972]

jack Kirky drew it, same guy who drew captain america and all the new gods stuff at dc.I know who jack Kirby is im talking about the guy who wrote this Batman issue !

[DarKye]

I am ashamed to say that, like others, I have no idea what I just read. Is this all just "Lump" going through Bruce's memory or something?

Yes. He's trying to "download" so to speak the memories and trauma so they can use them to create evil Bat-clones. And in order to do that, the Lump has to make Bruce trigger/think of those memories, that's why he's posing as Alfred.

[zur en arrh]

Yes. He's trying to "download" so to speak the memories and trauma so they can use them to create evil Bat-clones. And in order to do that, the Lump has to make Bruce trigger/think of those memories, that's why he's posing as Alfred.

Oh ok. Thanks a lot man.

Edit: Another question. Is this taking place after the heli-crash in 681?

[Sean Walsh]

THE LUMP!!! :biggrin:

Oh golly, I wasn't expecting him to show up!

Basically, for all those not in the know (this is when I love being a New Gods geek), the Lump is a minion of Darkseid who's basically used to conduct psychological warfare against various enemies of the state.

Here, it seems Mokkari & Simyan (M&S in a Batman comic! who'd'a thunk that day would come!) are using him as a sponge of sorts to soak up Bruce's emotions and personality to create an army of Batmen.

I didn't really know the point of this issue going in (or rather, how it'd connect recent Batman to FC - I suspect we may get a better idea of how Bats got from RIP to FC next issue), but I nearly dropped the comic when The Lump showed up halfway through.

Golly! :smile:

[Karl O'Neill]

I know who jack Kirby is im talking about the guy who wrote this Batman issue !

jack kirby again dude, sorry,

it was the old days, but his concepts remain great, clearly any writer back then's dialogue is going to look and read dated these days.

ever read a stan lee comic? shiver me timbers spiderman!

[pariah-1972]

jack kirby again dude, sorry,

it was the old days, but his concepts remain great, clearly any writer back then's dialogue is going to look and read dated these days.

ever read a stan lee comic? shiver me timbers spiderman!you.are.completely.not.hearing.what.i'm. saying. dude.



Teh artist on this issue that this thread is about (batman 682 !)doesn't draw the lump how jack kirby does.

Comperende?

[AlistairCrane]

I am ashamed to say that, like others, I have no idea what I just read. Is this all just "Lump" going through Bruce's memory or something?

Not only is he just going through them, he's messing them up as well.

The stuff when we see Bats in the mind control chamber is post-RIP. The opening dream sequence is supposed to take place in Year One, but it's a flashback/dream that's occuring to Bruce "now" in the chamber.

[Karl O'Neill]

you.are.completely.not.hearing.what.i'm. saying. dude.



Teh artist on this issue that this thread is about (batman 682 !)doesn't draw the lump how jack kirby does.

Comperende?

dude, I personally thought the art was fantastic,

After 30 or 40 years, I don;t mind a moderm rendition,

and lets face it, The lump looks like a pile of shite:)

[Karl O'Neill]

Darksied's plans are bigger than even i imagined.

I bet this will all tie back to Grant's JLA:Rock of Ages storyline,where batman was captured and mentally tortured for years on apokolips.

much like all star superman kinda ties to JLA: One Million, Themactially.

[pariah-1972]

dude, I personally thought the art was fantastic,

After 30 or 40 years, I don;t mind a moderm rendition,

and lets face it, The lump looks like a pile of shite:)Ok so you don't mind that an obscure character that most people have never heard about is drawn exactly like a more familiar bat villian?

[Karl O'Neill]

Ok so you don't mind that an obscure character that most people have never heard about is drawn exactly like a more familiar bat villian?

They both looks like piles of shite, so what difference does it make?

actually the coincidence that it looks like clayface might work really well in the end.

[Sean Walsh]

Oh ok. Thanks a lot man.

Edit: Another question. Is this taking place after the heli-crash in 681?

I presume we'll find that out next issue, when we get to more recent years in that Lumpy flashback origin thing...

[Magneto Rocks]

THE LUMP!!! :biggrin:

Oh golly, I wasn't expecting him to show up!

Basically, for all those not in the know (this is when I love being a New Gods geek), the Lump is a minion of Darkseid who's basically used to conduct psychological warfare against various enemies of the state.

Here, it seems Mokkari & Simyan (M&S in a Batman comic! who'd'a thunk that day would come!) are using him as a sponge of sorts to soak up Bruce's emotions and personality to create an army of Batmen.

I didn't really know the point of this issue going in (or rather, how it'd connect recent Batman to FC - I suspect we may get a better idea of how Bats got from RIP to FC next issue), but I nearly dropped the comic when The Lump showed up halfway through.

Golly! :smile:

I agree, word for word. I nearly didn't pick up this issue but figured the Final Crisis tie-in (Which I thought would be very loose at best) might make it worth it and- WHOAH!

This is what Morrison does best- takes an obscure Kirby point and updates it in a way that makes it potent, relevant and also makes perfect sense. Hell, I'm a New Gods geek (Albeit less than you, Sean. :p) and I had completely forgotten the Lump until this. Makes me wonder if giving the old omnibuses another read will turn up some elements that may soon appear in Crisis...

[Sean Walsh]

Ok so you don't mind that an obscure character that most people have never heard about is drawn exactly like a more familiar bat villian?

Would you have preferred this?

http://www.geocities.com/comixlibrary/newgods/lump.jpg

That's how Kirby drew him - unconscious, lying down, more of a threat in your mind that physically.

This Lump (same telepathic threat) is slumping in a chair, hooked up to devices and gadgets, and mumbling things every so often. Yah, it looks weirder, but also creepier, because it also looks like he could get up and come after you. Whereas Kirby's original rendition of the character........*yawn* he's so sleepy.....

Plus the words "THE LUMP!" (like mine in a prior post) were clearly stated when we first see him, so any good reader would know that was not Clayface at all.

[vickvega]

Anybody who thought the Black Glove was the Devil, totally missed the boat. I'll have to say this issue was quite hard for me to understand, but I think I get it. I will be reading the Fourth World Omnibus 1+2 this weekend.(I bought them and still havent read them). I hope the Lump character is in the first 2 collections. I dont think I will fully apprecitate this run until Ive read EVERY Batman/Fourth World story in existence.

[zur en arrh]

Anybody who thought the Black Glove was the Devil, totally missed the boat. I'll have to say this issue was quite hard for me to understand, but I think I get it. I will be reading the Fourth World Omnibus 1+2 this weekend.(I bought them and still havent read them). I hope the Lump character is in the first 2 collections. I dont think I will fully apprecitate this run until Ive read EVERY Batman/Fourth World story in existence.

Is it now believed that Darkseid is the Glove?

[Lew Moxon]

wouldn't that mean more or less the same thing, as Darkseid is supposed to be "The God of Evil"

Not that I like it. Bruce existing with metahumans has never felt natural to me. No matter how old that tradition is.

[AJM]

Well, that was interesting. For the most part, it was great fun but i'm a little disappointed that it ties into Final Crisis with characters i'd never heard of until today.

So it appears the Black Glove will be the Devil / Darkseid then? That was what i always feared, i have no interest in Darkseid or any of the New God types. I would've been happier with some form of Christian Satan than that.

I really wish that Batman would stay in his own world. Oh well.

[vickvega]

Its DC, not the Bible. Its pretty funny how many people were quoting Bible verses to prove the Black Glove was the Devil. Darkseid is not the Devil. The "devil" in the DCU is Satanus or Neron? So to label him Darkseid/Devil is completely wrong. Darkseid is Darkseid. I wonder what Tim Callahan thought of this issue after proclaiming his theory was the correct one.

[Lew Moxon]

Well, that was interesting. For the most part, it was great fun but i'm a little disappointed that it ties into Final Crisis with characters i'd never heard of until today.

So it appears the Black Glove will be the Devil / Darkseid then? That was what i always feared, i have no interest in Darkseid or any of the New God types. I would've been happier with some form of Christian Satan than that.

I really wish that Batman would stay in his own world. Oh well.

wow, another Gothamcentric fan like myself. I didn't realize there were more of us than just myself.

This somes up my thoughts completely.

[DarKye]

Anybody who thought the Black Glove was the Devil, totally missed the boat.

What piece of evidence have you found to make this claim?

I'm not saying you're wrong - Quite the opposite, I thought about Darkseid being behind it before, but I haven't been able to find anything concrete.

Are you just assuming it from this issue's experimentation? How would brain damaging Batman (Hurt's objective last issue) help Darkseid's plans?

[zur en arrh]

wow, another Gothamcentric fan like myself. I didn't realize there were more of us than just myself.

This somes up my thoughts completely.

Same here. If Darkseid is The Black Glove, then my love for this run may be hindered quite a bit.

[Karl O'Neill]

I like batman ground in gotham too, but war games and drums and war crimes were all crap,

was david lapham's 17 part city of crime any good?

[Lew Moxon]

I like batman ground in gotham too, but war games and drums and war crimes were all crap,

was david lapham's 17 part city of crime any good?


As far as I can remember that had more to do with the writing then the idea that batman is grounded in gotham and won't face superman villians.

[king911]

hm i thought this was narrated by Al, and that th lump (which i thought to be clayface) was in the past.

Time foe a re read:frown:

[king911]

WOW makes a lot more sense now, and i even looked in FC2, the lump is in it!

[Paul McEnery]

wouldn't that mean more or less the same thing, as Darkseid is supposed to be "The God of Evil"

Not that I like it. Bruce existing with metahumans has never felt natural to me. No matter how old that tradition is.

What, like Superman?

[drinkblatzbeer]

I've reread this thing over 3 times now...

Personally, I think next issue we see Bruce break free of whatever they've got him trapped in, which will have him on the loose in the next few issues of FC...I don't really know for sure if it's going to show how he came to FC from RIP exactly...maybe this will be revelead after he breaks their mental hold and will be told when he remembers what has been going on, maybe a detail about the black glove tying him to darkseid...

He basically says he's coming after them, which in turn seems they're changing his memories of his history to take him out as any kind of threat, having him remember his parents survive, referencing a joker attack in a world with no Batman...
which, I think is a failsafe for him and a mistake by them...I think it makes him realize the world NEEDS a Batman...
I suspect, from the ideas about his mental strength given in the RIP storyline, the next issue will continue with the "dream" of a world without Batman, to which he'll fight his way out of...

it's also interesting to see Alfred's funeral after his "death" and made a slight reference without really saying anything about "the outsider" by name...
this, is where Bruce in this dreamlike state almost breaks free of his captors, which also I think, seems to point to much of his pre-crisis continuity not really being reality (i think bruce's reaction maybe is that alfred never died and was resurrected in this reality)...I think the lines have now been blurred by the revelation of his time in the isolation chamber and also what LUMP has done to his mind since his capture in FC...

this, I think pointed to earlier in the issue with Bats line about putting the last few years of their life in the "black casebook"...which I'm not sure the complexity of, but must chronicle much of what may or may not actually have happened in pre-crisis continuity...

also, have to think the story leading into battle for the cowel will actually be the final issue of FC in which i still think Bruce's elevation to new god is a slight possibility, or else he's so damaged he needs some time away...though, the latter i don't think would lead to anything for the cowel but Bruce handing it off to a successor...

[Lew Moxon]

What, like Superman?

Exactly, I've never been very comfortable with Bats and Supes coexisting.

Let me put it this way, if they were owned by different companies, and the said two companies decided to do a crossover, would it make any sense?

But this is just my personal opinion.

[ultramandingo]

................i figure bruces brain got screwed up ...... and the whole deal was a crazy dream

............told you

[AlistairCrane]

wow, another Gothamcentric fan like myself. I didn't realize there were more of us than just myself.

This somes up my thoughts completely.

You can add me to your list as well!

[Captain Jim]

Wasn't pre-COIE Earth-2 actually considered the Golden Age (the1940s and 50s) ?

Yes, though more so the 40's than the 50's.

[Captain Jim]

Pre-Crisis he did, but that was retconned out of continuity.

Says who?

........

[AlistairCrane]

Says who?

........

Says Crisis on Infinite Earth. Says 52, which is the debut of the first Batwoman into modern continuity.

[Captain Jim]

Says Crisis on Infinite Earth.

I haven't read COIE since it first came out, but offhand I have no recollections of that being spelled out. Could you tell me where it happened?

Says 52, which is the debut of the first Batwoman into modern continuity

52 says that the new Batwoman is the first?

[AlistairCrane]

I haven't read COIE since it first came out, but offhand I have no recollections of that being spelled out. Could you tell me where it happened?



52 says that the new Batwoman is the first?

1) Don't play dumb, although I'd have to say you're doing a good job at it. COIE didn't spell out what was wiped out from continuity, but Kathy Kane was from one of the worlds that got destroyed. Thus, wiped from continuity.

2) Yep, it does. When Nightwing meets her, it's the first time he's met any Batwoman. DiDio and the creators of 52 have also confirmed this in interviews.

[Captain Jim]

I can do without your insults, Crane. Batwoman was from Earth 1, which was not destroyed.

I haven't read 52, hence my questions. But I didn't realize Dick told her he'd never met another Batwoman.

[dotdotdot]

I can do without your insults, Crane. Batwoman was from Earth 1, which was not destroyed.

I haven't read 52, hence my questions. But I didn't realize Dick told her he'd never met another Batwoman.

i don't mean to be a dick at all. 52 was pretty awesome though, and if you get bored i'd recommend reading it all. tons of fun.

[Buried Alien]

For the record:

In one of the 1998/1999 THE KINGDOM miniseries tie-ins, Batman encountered a ghost of the Kathy Kane Batwoman and initially, did not recognize her for who and what she was (although something of the memory returned after a moment).

That points to deletion from continuity Post-COIE.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[TJ Shoun]

Has a definite history of Batman been offered in the post-IC, New Earth anyway?

I mean, how do we know how much of this is "real" memory and how much is fabricated by Lump?

The last thing I knew of, the only significant change made by IC and 52 to Batman lore was that Joe Chill was caught and brought to justice for murdering Bruce's parents...?

Wasn't pre-COIE Earth-2 actually considered the Golden Age (the1940s and 50s) ?

Yeah, pretty much. The "JSA Earth" is how I always thought of it. :smile:

Jeez. DC aren't really even bothering with the art on this title, are they? I mean, Daniel is one thing, but why don't they try to get som a-level talent for the fill-ins, at least? Batman is one of their top-selling books. It should have a top artist.

No kidding. Lee Garbett? Seriously? Terrible.

Afterwards, once all this amazing run by Morrison is collected into those big, pretty, oversized hardcover editions, you'll open it to *yay* Daniels and Garbett artwork. :rolleyes:

It's almost like DC is trying to pair Morrison with most sub-par and pedestrian artists they can find.

At least we have Alex Ross covers, I guess.

[TJ Shoun]

For the record:

In one of the 1998/1999 THE KINGDOM miniseries tie-ins, Batman encountered a ghost of the Kathy Kane Batwoman and initially, did not recognize her for who and what she was (although something of the memory returned after a moment).

Wasn't that during the Hypertime debacle, though?

No one understood Hypertime.

Not even Mark Waid or Grant Morrison. :wink:

[Brian Cronin]

I can do without your insults, Crane. Batwoman was from Earth 1, which was not destroyed.

I haven't read 52, hence my questions. But I didn't realize Dick told her he'd never met another Batwoman.

I think the confusion, JIm, comes from the fact that Kathy Kane still existed post-Crisis (and was still killed by a brainwashed Bronze Tiger), she just was never Batwoman.

Since her death PRE-Crisis was as a retired Batwoman, the difference between Kathy Kane, retired Batwoman being killed and Kathy Kane, never Batwoman being killed is basically negligible. It wouldn't exactly come up a lot in conversation.

-Brian

[Death by Mime]

What if Robin, Nightwing, and Birds of Prey are just plots in Bruce's insane brain?

What if the entire DCU is all in the head of Batman, and what if Batman himself is just a fictional character being written by a bald Scottish dude???


That Silver Age flashback panel is awesome. The ERASER! Never thought I'd see him in a modern Batman comic ...


Please, please tell him that his superpower is being able to kill people by bending over and rubbing his head against them. :tongue:

This was fantastic, just this crazy whirlwind tour through Batman's entire history. Robin coming in and changing everything, and I loved the part where Batman was having a kind of midlife crises over how bright and colorful his life had gotten.

I think the Lump could have stood to be more visually distinguished from Clayface, though. Clayface was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw him. Make him pinker, or something, just this disgusting, useless lump of flesh who's only active in his perverse intrusive fantasies.

[Binker]

Discussion and Review Thread

By Nathaniel Ruff (also known as Binker, Binker2 and Nate on many forums)

BATMAN #682

Written by Grant Morrison
Art by Lee Garbett
Cover by Alex Ross
Variant Cover by Tony Daniel
Edited by Mike Marts

PLOT:
Two issues of BATMAN in one month! Now that "Batman R.I.P." has concluded, the aftermath begins! If you thought mastermind writer Grant Morrison surprised you with "R.I.P.", just wait until you see what he has planned for this retrospective story. In his last hours, Alfred the Butler tells the life story of the Batman as you've never seen it before in this two-part adventure which bridges the gap between the events of "Batman R.I.P." and FINAL CRISIS. Learn the secrets of Batman's early years! Witness the nightmare of a Gotham City where Batman never existed!

REVIEW:
"R.I.P.", the main arc (maybe), is over, and I don't know what to say. A disappointment in my opinion; I really wanted, and could have created, a better story than that. Grant made a classic out of "All Star Superman", and he did GREAT for was THE JLA back in the '90s, but Batman today seems no-no. I mean, before he was okay looking back, but this big story seemed missed. But it's not like Grant is done yet, for we have to aftermath issues starting with "Batman #682". What will he do, and how does this tie into "Final Crisis" going from what we read from "R.I.P."'s ending? Well, and let's face it, that's Grant's job to tell us.

This two-parter has some importance: it is the aftermath to "Batman R.I.P.", as it seems to stand now it is the ending to Grant Morrison's long run on the "Batman" book, and its storyline is a tie-in to Grant Morrison's other event to the DCU: "Final Crisis". Like Grant's other works, it makes you stop and like what you just read from that comic book issue, but like Mr. Grant Morrison, it leaves you with some questions on what you read. But, I may have said questions, it is actually just one question, and it seems it will be answered in the next issue of this two-parter: how did Batman go from where we left him from "R.I.P." to "Final Crisis"? That's the question, as we see Batman as he is right now (well, I use that loosely), scrapped and being tortured by Darkseid. In this book, it is presented as a "life and times" of Batman's life, well actually his post-Infinite Crisis life. Throughout Grant's run, and the DCU itself, we had known that classic pre-Crisis elements had returned to the characters of the DC Universe, and we had also known that in Batman's life, he had gone through so much in such a short timespan. Because this is just the first part, we are only treated to Batman's life from the pre-Crisis angle: Golden Age with his 1939 Batsuit and Julie Madison, Silver Age with the Dynamic Duo of Batman and Robin, Batwoman, the bizarre Bat-Villians from that era to the change from the lunatic to the goofy on the Joker, and Bronze Age from when Bruce Wayne closed down Wayne Manor and the Batcave and when Dick Grayson "graduated" from being Robin onto becoming Nightwing. If someone said that this had a take like a catch on for new readers, I would agree, but it also adds more to the mix. I see this also as a return to these classic Batman elements for longtime readers, old Batman readers, that miss that Dynamic Duo aspect, or even that '30s (or modern '30s) Batman element. With that in mind, I enjoyed this.

Overall, and I'll say it again, I really did enjoy this. To recap: as an important two-parter to "Batman", it is an aftermath of an event, the beginning of the end of a run, and the tie-in to an event of the DCU, served completely from just this two-parter. The "life and times" aspect, from Golden to the Bronze Ages, allowed a catch on for new readers, but also a return for longtime older readers who miss these elements that have come and gone. It isn't just an aftermath, tie-in, whatever two-parter of Batman, it is a two-parter on the history of Batman: who he is, what he is, and how he came to be what we all know him to have become over the years. Now, we have one more issue to go, and if this is the last issue of his run, then how will he end it on the Caped Crusader?

RATING: Yay

Next Issue: Part 2: The life and times of, and what's next for, The Dark Knight!

[AJM]

What, like Superman?

Precisely.

[AJM]

I'm trying to feel love for this, i've read it again and some of it is great, but all this Final Crisis tie-in nonsense has completely turned me off. What i thought was going to be an excellent Batman tale has now just become part of yet another boring crossover event story that holds no appeal to me whatsoever.

My interest is going...


...going...


...going...


gone.

[GRANT!]

Exactly, I've never been very comfortable with Bats and Supes coexisting.

Let me put it this way, if they were owned by different companies, and the said two companies decided to do a crossover, would it make any sense?

Well they are both pretty absurd concepts to begin with. So I can rationalize them coexisting.

[Paul McEnery]

Well they are both pretty absurd concepts to begin with. So I can rationalize them coexisting.

The thing is, both concepts practically demand the invention of an entire universe of capes around them, otherwise they don't make sense. The Batman would have to be the Punisher instead.

[Mat001]

Has a definite history of Batman been offered in the post-IC, New Earth anyway?

I mean, how do we know how much of this is "real" memory and how much is fabricated by Lump?

The last thing I knew of, the only significant change made by IC and 52 to Batman lore was that Joe Chill was caught and brought to justice for murdering Bruce's parents...?

There wasn't as much to change with Batman as there has been with Superman. The only new material was "Joe Chill In Hell". Otherwise everything from "Year One" on is still in play, only now we have stuff from the Golden and Silver Age being put in either as happening or part of the "Black Casebook"/isolation experiments.

[AlistairCrane]

There wasn't as much to change with Batman as there has been with Superman. The only new material was "Joe Chill In Hell". Otherwise everything from "Year One" on is still in play, only now we have stuff from the Golden and Silver Age being put in either as happening or part of the "Black Casebook"/isolation experiments.

And it's possible to say that all the Golden/Silver Age stuff is hallucinations/part of the experiments because nothing has been made particularly clear.

[davepaton]

I agree with Lew Moxon that I wish Batman was just in his own world. And whilst I enjoyed this issue a lot I just feel that its pretty crappy of DC to require people to read FC to fully understand what's going on here. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is interested in Batman but couldn't care less about the expensive and convoluted FC.

[Karl O'Neill]

I agree with Lew Moxon that I wish Batman was just in his own world. And whilst I enjoyed this issue a lot I just feel that its pretty crappy of DC to require people to read FC to fully understand what's going on here. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is interested in Batman but couldn't care less about the expensive and convoluted FC.

sorry, have to say this but crossovers in comics are nothing new, If you didn;t like them then, you shouldn;t get them now,

My comment seems cheeky but it's not meant to.

[davepaton]

sorry, have to say this but crossovers in comics are nothing new, If you didn;t like them then, you shouldn;t get them now,

My comment seems cheeky but it's not meant to.

No I agree with what your saying. It's not new but I just think that such a major event in Batman's career should appear on the pages of batman not FC or anything else other than Batman.

[AlistairCrane]

No I agree with what your saying. It's not new but I just think that such a major event in Batman's career should appear on the pages of batman not FC or anything else other than Batman.

I agree with what you're saying because if you didn't read or keep up with Final Crisis, this issue would make absolutely no sense to you. Perhaps next time they should use an editor's box indicated it's taking place after FC#3 (thus allowing non-readers of FC to wikipedia it).

[Paul McEnery]

I agree with what you're saying because if you didn't read or keep up with Final Crisis, this issue would make absolutely no sense to you. Perhaps next time they should use an editor's box indicated it's taking place after FC#3 (thus allowing non-readers of FC to wikipedia it).

I think we can safely assume that anyone reading the monthly Batman comic is aware that Final Crisis is being pubished.

[TJ Shoun]

There wasn't as much to change with Batman as there has been with Superman. The only new material was "Joe Chill In Hell". Otherwise everything from "Year One" on is still in play, only now we have stuff from the Golden and Silver Age being put in either as happening or part of the "Black Casebook"/isolation experiments.

I'd hope so, because Year One was fantastic and should stay canon.

At least DC gave us The History of the DC Universe following COIE to kind of clarify things. (Even if it took them until Zero Hour to reconcile the timeline.)

As far as I know, we've not been offered anything like that for post-52 New Earth.

(Unless DC's published something I'm not aware of...?)

For example, is Birthright the official Supes origin now?

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

sorry, have to say this but crossovers in comics are nothing new, If you didn;t like them then, you shouldn;t get them now,

My comment seems cheeky but it's not meant to.

Don't worry about being cheeky, General Grievous, you outrank everyone else here...:biggrin:

[Karl O'Neill]

Just as Count dooku predicted.

[Super Buddies Forever]

I'm another "Gotham isolationist" who believes Batman works better without the greater DCU beating down its door. I'm okay with things like the Justice League and Batman appearing in crossovers, because those are kept at arm's length from the main material, but when the DCU appears in Bat books and begins influencing its continuity, then we've got problems.

It's the reason I despised Jason Todd's resurrection (linked to Superboy-Prime) and didn't enjoy this issue (New Gods). In my mind, the litmus test is "could this story be translated into a Batman television series or motion picture?" When the franchise becomes dependent on other franchises, its lost itself.

[Paul McEnery]

Don't worry about being cheeky, General Grievous, you outrank everyone else here...:biggrin:

Oh, I think there's one or two people who are ranker...

[AJM]

The thing is, both concepts practically demand the invention of an entire universe of capes around them, otherwise they don't make sense. The Batman would have to be the Punisher instead.

So how come Batman Begins and The Dark Knight are so (artistically) successful?

[Buried Alien]

Gotham can work without the rest of the DCU.

The problem is, the reverse is not true. The DCU at large would be a poorer place without Batman, Robin, Nightwing, etc., and even some of the Bat-villains.

Batman must be an accessible element of the DCU not for his own sake, but for the sake of DC's shared universe.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[GRANT!]

The thing is, both concepts practically demand the invention of an entire universe of capes around them, otherwise they don't make sense. The Batman would have to be the Punisher instead.

I don't buy into argument. I think both Batman and Superman work on their own as well. Both are pretty strong and simple concepts that can work in pretty much any context. Though Batman can get a little silly if you try to rationalize his universe too much.

[GRANT!]

I agree with what you're saying because if you didn't read or keep up with Final Crisis, this issue would make absolutely no sense to you. Perhaps next time they should use an editor's box indicated it's taking place after FC#3 (thus allowing non-readers of FC to wikipedia it).

It has Final Crisis stamped on the cover. The issue was solicitated as a Final Crisis tie in.

[TJ Shoun]

Batman must be an accessible element of the DCU not for his own sake, but for the sake DC's shared universe.

Yeah.

Within the greater context of the DCU, Batman almost becomes a POV character.

...especially in the Justice League (whatever iteration), Batman's presence always makes the mythological gods of the JLA and the rest of the DCU seem all that more awesome.

At the same time I think that helps Batman too, though. It makes those who're fans of the "regular human" superhero appreciate him even more at the same time. His reliance upon his own human abilities becomes even more impressive when surrounded by these other, uber-powerful characters.

Everything's relative...

[Chad]

Points to anyone who can name all the villains in the flashbacks/dreams that the lump is wading through?

The obscure ones i mean, not the joker, Hurt, or penguin.

BTW, batman in the killer moth suit was badass, in a freaky funny kinda way.

Page Six - Batman entering Dr Death's hideout through the window is taken from Tec 29.

Page Seven - "And then Rogers..." Gordon's conversation with Bruce Wayne is taken from Batman's first appearance in Tec 27.

Page Seven - "I'm leaving for Hollywood". Julie Madison first appeared in Tec 31 and had become an actress by Tec 40 in which she nearly became one of Basil Karlo's first victims. In Tec 49, it's revealed that she had adopted the stage name "Portia Storme"

Page Eight - The Red Roadster seen in the Bat-Cave was Batman's first Batmobile which debuted in Tec 27.

Page Ten - Apex Chemicals refers to the case Batman solved in his first appearance. Here, Morrison is suggesting a connection between Apex and Batman's first real foe Dr Death that had never before been made.

Page Eleven - The Bat-Gyro first appeared in Tec 31 and the scene referenced (Gatling Gun and all) in this issue is from Tec 33.

Page Twelve - Batman battling Hugo Strange's Man-Monsters - or rather about to trick them into battling one another - is taken from Batman 1.

Page Thirteen - Death of the Grayson's of course, comes from Tec 38.

Page Fourteen - One of Batman's vehicles shown in the Cave is a Whirly Bat which didn't come into use until Tec 257 in 1958.

Page Sixteen - On display is Thomas Wayne's Bat-Man costume from Te 235, a collection of Batarangs most of which likely were introduced back in Tec 244 (and interestingly were on display in The Kingdon: Planet Krypton as part of Booster Gold's superhero themed restaurant), and the Bat-Radia. The thing about the batarang display, is that in that Kingdom special, Batman remarked that many of the items in Gold's collection caused him to experience a sensation of deja vu or nostalgia which didn't make sense as he had no idea what these objects were supposed to represent. Here, they presumably would make sense to him.

Page Seventeen - Alfred is feeding Ace and Bruce Wayne refers to Robin's motorcycle which I don't believe he began using until the late 1960's at the earliest.

The criminal tied up to the Scales of Justice is the head of the Cobra gang who debuted with the Betty Kane Batgirl in Batman 139. The Scale of Justice as well was at least one as a plot device in - I think - Batman 144 in which Robin explains to Batgirl that "this is the only woman for me".

The only kiss I remember Batman and Kathy Kane sharing is from Batman 153 which is referenced on Page 22. It would have fit in perfectly with Batman's history if the two had kissed right after Batwoman says "Dying wouldn't be so bad if I knew you loved me too" in this flashback. In that issue Batman kisses her but later claims to have done so only to make her feel better. In the Silver Age, Batman always kept her at arms length. Here, he seems unable to.

The giant typewriter Robin sits on pays homage to the giant props of the Dick Sprang era of Batman.

Another reference to Apex Chemicals. Apex has been bought out by Ace Chemicals which is the Chemical Company where the Red Hood jumped into a vat of acid to escape Batman thus becoming the Joker. Coincidentally (so far) in the first appearance of Apex, Batman knocks a bad guy into a vat of chemicals; in Tec 168 the Joker suffers a similar self-inflicted fate. Has the Joker taken over Apex and supplied others with "poisons and designer drugs" to make the rest of Batman's Rogues Gallery more dangerous perhaps creating a more violent world to accomadate his next personality change?

Page 22 - Robin's reference to Batman getting married to Batwoman is likely a nod to Batman 122 in which Robin dreams about the two of them doing just that.

"My soul dying...on another planet" is taken from Batman 153.

Robin's "I don't trust her" line isn't from any story I know of. May be another example of Batman creating a memory to keep him on his toes because he knows his mind is being invaded.

Page 23 - "Robin Dies at Dawn" Batman 156.

Page 24 - I don't know anything about The Lump and yes he looks like Clayface, but only the Clayface of the Animated Series (I guess modern times as well if that's how he's drawn in flashbacks and as Basil Karlo's Ultimate Clayface). Matt Hagen looked like a man covered in clay and nothing like the creature in this issue. Not really a clue or anything, but the artist isn't copying Clayface's appearance.

The Death of Alfred is taken from Tec 328 in which he died saving the lives of Batman and Robin. He was only brought back because the makers of the Adam West series asked Schwartz to bring him back. He returned in 1966, when it was revealed that the criminal mastermind who had been manipulating attacks on Batman and Robin while vowing to destroy everything they had before taking their lives, was an amnesiac Alfred.

"What's the connection between the chemicals and the crazy people?". Again, this must involve the Joker.

Page 25 "Card begins with a "C" " Sea". A take-off on the "The crime happened at sea" "Sea? 'C' for Catwoman!" exchange from the Adam West movie.

The villains include Catwoman in her green outfit (which I think debuted in Batman 197), The Eraser (old college classmate of Bruce Wayne's; real name Lenny Fiasco), the Joker and his side-kick Gaggy the Dwarf (from Batman 186), and the Penguin.

Page 26 Batman and Alfred closing up the Bat-Cave is taken from Batman 217.

"I made up a story once..." Alfred used to write stories about a possible future in which Batman and Batwoman got married, retired, and had a child who went on to become Robin II to Dick Grayson's Batman II (Batman 131).

An aside - the "I shall become... a moth!" joke reminds me of an old Mad or Cracked strip from years ago in which Bruce Wayne becomes everything from Squirrel-Man to Horse-Man. I think it's from whatever issue of Cracked came out in 1989 and parodied the Keaton film.

Anyways, I love the old comics and always hate it when they're referenced either so they can be made fun of, or paid lip-service to. Morrison seems to have a genuine affection for these tales however. There was nothing in here that seemed inconsistent with Batman's history (that is, some of it may have been assumed to have been removed from continuity at some point over the past 20 years, but most of this happened fairly faithfully with the exception of Morrison adjusting the time-line somewhat - ie. Batwoman's relationship being more serious than it ever was and the Batman/Robin rift developing at earlier date than it should have).

[Harding Prime]

RIP really happened, but what we're seeing in this issue (the memories) didn't really happen outside of Bruce's head. For example, the only Batwoman that has existed is the current Kate Kane lesbian Batwoman. So the Batwoman we see here is a modified memory/hallucination. Also, Julie Madison went to Africa, not Hollywood. Remember, the Lump is poking around in there not just walking through Bruce's memories as they happened, but "converting memories". We see this towards the end when we see a "memory" of Bruce with his parents alive. The Lump is in there manipulating and distorting memories to create the perfect army of evil Batmen.

No, Bruce figured out that some one was attacking his brain as "The Butler" and has changed course into saying that if they want to know how to build the perfect Batman, which is why the Butler keeps going back to the case books, then he will give him the perfect Bruce Wayne, with parent's and everything. But his memories get the better of him and he finds (in his mind) that if Batman didn't exist, then all the killing would have still happened, and there would be no one there to stop it either.

[AJM]

Page Six - Batman entering Dr Death's hideout through the window is taken from Tec 29.

Page Seven - "And then Rogers..." Gordon's conversation with Bruce Wayne is taken from Batman's first appearance in Tec 27.

Page Seven - "I'm leaving for Hollywood". Julie Madison first appeared in Tec 31 and had become an actress by Tec 40 in which she nearly became one of Basil Karlo's first victims. In Tec 49, it's revealed that she had adopted the stage name "Portia Storme"

Page Eight - The Red Roadster seen in the Bat-Cave was Batman's first Batmobile which debuted in Tec 27.

Page Ten - Apex Chemicals refers to the case Batman solved in his first appearance. Here, Morrison is suggesting a connection between Apex and Batman's first real foe Dr Death that had never before been made.

Page Eleven - The Bat-Gyro first appeared in Tec 31 and the scene referenced (Gatling Gun and all) in this issue is from Tec 33.

Page Twelve - Batman battling Hugo Strange's Man-Monsters - or rather about to trick them into battling one another - is taken from Batman 1.

Page Thirteen - Death of the Grayson's of course, comes from Tec 38.

Page Fourteen - One of Batman's vehicles shown in the Cave is a Whirly Bat which didn't come into use until Tec 257 in 1958.

Page Sixteen - On display is Thomas Wayne's Bat-Man costume from Te 235, a collection of Batarangs most of which likely were introduced back in Tec 244 (and interestingly were on display in The Kingdon: Planet Krypton as part of Booster Gold's superhero themed restaurant), and the Bat-Radia. The thing about the batarang display, is that in that Kingdom special, Batman remarked that many of the items in Gold's collection caused him to experience a sensation of deja vu or nostalgia which didn't make sense as he had no idea what these objects were supposed to represent. Here, they presumably would make sense to him.

Page Seventeen - Alfred is feeding Ace and Bruce Wayne refers to Robin's motorcycle which I don't believe he began using until the late 1960's at the earliest.

The criminal tied up to the Scales of Justice is the head of the Cobra gang who debuted with the Betty Kane Batgirl in Batman 139. The Scale of Justice as well was at least one as a plot device in - I think - Batman 144 in which Robin explains to Batgirl that "this is the only woman for me".

The only kiss I remember Batman and Kathy Kane sharing is from Batman 153 which is referenced on Page 22. It would have fit in perfectly with Batman's history if the two had kissed right after Batwoman says "Dying wouldn't be so bad if I knew you loved me too" in this flashback. In that issue Batman kisses her but later claims to have done so only to make her feel better. In the Silver Age, Batman always kept her at arms length. Here, he seems unable to.

The giant typewriter Robin sits on pays homage to the giant props of the Dick Sprang era of Batman.

Another reference to Apex Chemicals. Apex has been bought out by Ace Chemicals which is the Chemical Company where the Red Hood jumped into a vat of acid to escape Batman thus becoming the Joker. Coincidentally (so far) in the first appearance of Apex, Batman knocks a bad guy into a vat of chemicals; in Tec 168 the Joker suffers a similar self-inflicted fate. Has the Joker taken over Apex and supplied others with "poisons and designer drugs" to make the rest of Batman's Rogues Gallery more dangerous perhaps creating a more violent world to accomadate his next personality change?

Page 22 - Robin's reference to Batman getting married to Batwoman is likely a nod to Batman 122 in which Robin dreams about the two of them doing just that.

"My soul dying...on another planet" is taken from Batman 153.

Robin's "I don't trust her" line isn't from any story I know of. May be another example of Batman creating a memory to keep him on his toes because he knows his mind is being invaded.

Page 23 - "Robin Dies at Dawn" Batman 156.

Page 24 - I don't know anything about The Lump and yes he looks like Clayface, but only the Clayface of the Animated Series (I guess modern times as well if that's how he's drawn in flashbacks and as Basil Karlo's Ultimate Clayface). Matt Hagen looked like a man covered in clay and nothing like the creature in this issue. Not really a clue or anything, but the artist isn't copying Clayface's appearance.

The Death of Alfred is taken from Tec 328 in which he died saving the lives of Batman and Robin. He was only brought back because the makers of the Adam West series asked Schwartz to bring him back. He returned in 1966, when it was revealed that the criminal mastermind who had been manipulating attacks on Batman and Robin while vowing to destroy everything they had before taking their lives, was an amnesiac Alfred.

"What's the connection between the chemicals and the crazy people?". Again, this must involve the Joker.

Page 25 "Card begins with a "C" " Sea". A take-off on the "The crime happened at sea" "Sea? 'C' for Catwoman!" exchange from the Adam West movie.

The villains include Catwoman in her green outfit (which I think debuted in Batman 197), The Eraser (old college classmate of Bruce Wayne's; real name Lenny Fiasco), the Joker and his side-kick Gaggy the Dwarf (from Batman 186), and the Penguin.

Page 26 Batman and Alfred closing up the Bat-Cave is taken from Batman 217.

"I made up a story once..." Alfred used to write stories about a possible future in which Batman and Batwoman got married, retired, and had a child who went on to become Robin II to Dick Grayson's Batman II (Batman 131).

An aside - the "I shall become... a moth!" joke reminds me of an old Mad or Cracked strip from years ago in which Bruce Wayne becomes everything from Squirrel-Man to Horse-Man. I think it's from whatever issue of Cracked came out in 1989 and parodied the Keaton film.

Anyways, I love the old comics and always hate it when they're referenced either so they can be made fun of, or paid lip-service to. Morrison seems to have a genuine affection for these tales however. There was nothing in here that seemed inconsistent with Batman's history (that is, some of it may have been assumed to have been removed from continuity at some point over the past 20 years, but most of this happened fairly faithfully with the exception of Morrison adjusting the time-line somewhat - ie. Batwoman's relationship being more serious than it ever was and the Batman/Robin rift developing at earlier date than it should have).

Holy shit, wow. You're the answers guy from now on!

[Paul McEnery]

So how come Batman Begins and The Dark Knight are so (artistically) successful?

I don't buy into argument. I think both Batman and Superman work on their own as well. Both are pretty strong and simple concepts that can work in pretty much any context. Though Batman can get a little silly if you try to rationalize his universe too much.

I didn't thing Batman Begins was all that artistically successful. Where it's derivative, it's weaker than the source; where it's original, it's weaker than the source. If it had been put out as a comic book story, it would have sunk without trace, I think. And in any case, it downplays a great deal of the, ahem, costume drama. (I understand DK creates its own world, but I haven't seen it yet.)

But anyway, the reason this flies at all as an idea is entirely because we've been acclimatized to the idea of superheroes, because we've all seen a bazillion of them by now. If anything, Batman becomes much more normal by comparison to, say the Legion of Superheroes. OTOH, next to a Sam Spade move he still looks very silly indeed.

Aside from the dodginess of the execution, I think Superman without superheroes looks like Smallville, and that kind of works. Why the costume at all? The science-fictiony side carries the day just fine -- but even then, we see how the core concept has to metastasize into many kryptonite affected characters, and then to many superheroes, just to give the character something to do except pout over Lana and get stroppy with Lex -- and we can see that in any overacted teen drama.

[Mat001]

I'd hope so, because Year One was fantastic and should stay canon.

It is as you see in the first few pages as we see Bruce sitting in his chair, battered and holding the bell that he used to summon Alfred. Before "Year One", he was not battered and Alfred wasn't even around yet.

At least DC gave us The History of the DC Universe following COIE to kind of clarify things. (Even if it took them until Zero Hour to reconcile the timeline.)

As far as I know, we've not been offered anything like that for post-52 New Earth.

(Unless DC's published something I'm not aware of...?)

For example, is Birthright the official Supes origin now?

No, it is not. You will want "Superman: Secret Origin" which comes out next year along with Action Comics Annual #10 and Action Comics #850 for the basics. No major timeline was published because the basic chain of events is the same. Only Superman and Wonder Woman's timeline has been affected, which mostly centers around pushing key events back to "Year One" rather than post "Crisis On Infinite Earths" time frame.

[Captain Jim]

52 was pretty awesome though, and if you get bored i'd recommend reading it all. tons of fun.

Oh, I've got every issue. Just haven't had a chance to read them yet.

[Ben Reilly#6]

Page Six - Batman entering Dr Death's hideout through the window is taken from Tec 29.
(snip)


That's amazing. Thanks for keeping track of everything. Totally agree about the Golden and Silver age references as well. It really is nice to see them referenced with a healthy respect.

I didn't thing Batman Begins was all that artistically successful. Where it's derivative, it's weaker than the source; where it's original, it's weaker than the source. If it had been put out as a comic book story, it would have sunk without trace, I think. And in any case, it downplays a great deal of the, ahem, costume drama. (I understand DK creates its own world, but I haven't seen it yet.)


Well in that respect, it's pretty perfect for the movie-going general audience.
As it's been shown with Smallville, most people won't take interest in these kinds of stories unless they're watered down in some form, even if the story has been around for numerous decades. I'll never understand it.

[nepenthes]

Page Six - Batman entering Dr Death's hideout through the window is taken from Tec 29.

Page Seven - "And then Rogers..." Gordon's conversation with Bruce Wayne is taken from Batman's first appearance in Tec 27.

Page Eight - The Red Roadster seen in the Bat-Cave was Batman's first Batmobile which debuted in Tec 27.

Page Ten - Apex Chemicals refers to the case Batman solved in his first appearance. Here, Morrison is suggesting a connection between Apex and Batman's first real foe Dr Death that had never before been made.

The giant typewriter Robin sits on pays homage to the giant props of the Dick Sprang era of Batman.

Page 25 "Card begins with a "C" " Sea". A take-off on the "The crime happened at sea" "Sea? 'C' for Catwoman!" exchange from the Adam West movie.


I picked these ones myself and I thought I was doing pretty good, but goddamn Chad that's impressive :cool:

[AlistairCrane]

It has Final Crisis stamped on the cover. The issue was solicitated as a Final Crisis tie in.

Don't get sassy with me. I'm reading Final Crisis---I'm just expressing what people who don't must be feeling

Thanks!!!

[AlistairCrane]

No, Bruce figured out that some one was attacking his brain as "The Butler" and has changed course into saying that if they want to know how to build the perfect Batman, which is why the Butler keeps going back to the case books, then he will give him the perfect Bruce Wayne, with parent's and everything. But his memories get the better of him and he finds (in his mind) that if Batman didn't exist, then all the killing would have still happened, and there would be no one there to stop it either.


No, you're wrong. What we're seeing aren't true memories. They're all various corruptions.

[sgt pepper]

Simon Hurt=anagram=Hurt mi (my) son.

Hurt is Thomas Wayne.

Solved.

The rest of 682 is an anagram too and when rearranged correctly spells out a recipe for Morrison's favorite vegan falafel.

[Mat001]

Simon Hurt=anagram=Hurt mi (my) son.

Hurt is Thomas Wayne.

Solved.

The rest of 682 is an anagram too and when rearranged correctly spells out a recipe for Morrison's favorite vegan falafel.

Except that Mike Marts already confirmed it isn't Thomas Wayne.

[ANewHope]

You know, all the dreams felt real. Up until Bruce realized that the Butler telling him this story wasn't the Butler.

Then the Lump had to telepathically mess up most important memory that defines Bruce as Batman.

For whatever reason, whoever is behind final crisis is recording and analyzing Bruce's memories and then trying to replace them, for what reason we dont know.

[vitruvian]

You know, all the dreams felt real. Up until Bruce realized that the Butler telling him this story wasn't the Butler.

Then the Lump had to telepathically mess up most important memory that defines Bruce as Batman.

For whatever reason, whoever is behind final crisis is recording and analyzing Bruce's memories and then trying to replace them, for what reason we dont know.

Actually, they explain their reasons quite clearly in the last few pages.

[ANewHope]

Yes, to create an army of mindless Batmen. But what are they really doing?

[lawman]

Lemme excerpt a few thoughts I've written elsewhere (http://blog.smartmemes.com/2008/12/batman-682-morrison%e2%80%99s-last-writes/)...

In a drastic change of pace from what has come before, this issue basically offers a retrospective, a recap of (the first half of) the Batman’s career. Of course, Grant Morrison being who he is, it’s not as simple as that… it’s presented as a stream of consciousness, cryptic and disjointed, impressionistic. From all appearances the memories depicted are those of Bruce Wayne… but just to complicate things, the narration comes courtesy of Alfred, and there’s at least one scene in which Bruce isn’t even present.

...What the issue doesn’t offer, despite the promises of publisher and editors, is any sort of narrative “bridge” whatsoever explaining how Batman got from the end of “R.I.P.” to the beginning of Grant’s other current opus, Final Crisis.

...the driving force of the story, the rationale for the recap, is multifaceted. In one sense, metatextually, it’s about fulfilling Morrison’s conceit that the entire 70-year published history of Batman, including countless Golden Age and early Silver Age stories that were long ago swept under the rug in current continuity and seem completely at odds with it thematically, can somehow be shoehorned into the life of the present-day version of the character.

In another sense, it’s that Bruce’s mind is being mined, as it were, by Simyan and Mokkari, a pair of mad scientists in the style of Mengele and the service of Darkseid, who captured him in issue #2 of Final Crisis. (This isn’t recapped anywhere in the issue, BTW, so readers who are unfortunate enough to follow only Batman and not DC’s tentpole event title are left in the dark about the who, what, where, why, and when of his captivity.) They do this via the telepathic powers of the Lump (an obscure old Mr. Miracle villain), who (we gradually discover) is inhabiting Bruce’s memories disguised as Alfred.

Grant hedges his bets as to how reliable any of the flashbacks are, however, right from the start, by depicting two contradictory variations on the seminal moment when the bat flew in Bruce’s study window and inspired him to adopt his costumed persona. What follows is thus, clearly, not 100% reliable. Still, for those concerned about continuity (a cohort in which I surely count myself), he arguably reintroduces more long-abandoned or contradictory details of the Bat-mythos in this single story than in his entire run to date. Most notably:


Original girlfriend Julie Madison (who was elegantly re-imagined by Matt Wagner in his Monster Men and Mad Monk mini-series just last year, both of which are ignored here)
Some of Batman’s earliest (and pulpiest) adventures from the pages of 1939’s Detective Comics, including his confrontations with “Doctor Death” and “the Dirigible of Doom”
The prank-obsessed, non-homicidal version of the Joker, as seen in the 1950s and ’60s
The yellow-clad, 1950s Kathy (now, apparently, Katy) Kane version of Batwoman
Alfred’s mid-’60s death and resurrection (although not, at least explicitly, his brief career as the villainous Outsider)

In fact, a crucial moment in the plot—the turning point at which Bruce realizes his memories are being infiltrated, and Alfred isn’t really Alfred—hinges on the fact that Alfred never remembered his death and resurrection… a clue unlikely to be noticed by many readers, depending as it does on a story that’s hardly even been mentioned in print for over 30 years.

(...Speaking of which, if anyone knows of an actual past story in which the Joker surrendered himself after losing a “laughing contest” with Robin, please let me know what it is!...)

It’s possible, barely, to wedge all of these references into the known continuity of the post-Crisis Batman’s life. (In fact, I’ve tried my level best to do so on my DCU history site (http://www.dcutimeline.com/DCTL_4_TL.html).) However, it’s no surprise that the story has provoked some mixed reviews… not to mention confused reactions from readers, since its references even to recent events are opaque at best. (Does Final Crisis take place after the “six months later” prologue/epilogue in “R.I.P.”? No, the other way around. Are Bruce’s flashbacks taking place years ago during his isolation chamber experiment? No, they’re contemporary. Why did Bruce twig to the Lump’s deception? See above. Was Dr. Hurt an agent of Darkseid? No evidence for that. Was “R.I.P.” all a delusion? We should be so lucky…)

...Still, despite all its flaws (or, to be charitable, “features with selective appeal”), I have to say that I rather enjoyed the issue—certainly more than I had the preceding storyline, at least. The nostalgia it evokes for adventures gone by (even if the ones Grant embraces aren’t often the ones most readers remember) elicits an authentic emotional tone that’s been missing from most of Grant’s run, and conveys a sense of direction and purpose to the Batman’s long career that’s too often missing from other, smaller-scale stories.

[davepaton]

Page Six - Batman entering Dr Death's hideout through the window is taken from Tec 29.

Page Seven - "And then Rogers..." Gordon's conversation with Bruce Wayne is taken from Batman's first appearance in Tec 27.

Page Seven - "I'm leaving for Hollywood". Julie Madison first appeared in Tec 31 and had become an actress by Tec 40 in which she nearly became one of Basil Karlo's first victims. In Tec 49, it's revealed that she had adopted the stage name "Portia Storme"

Page Eight - The Red Roadster seen in the Bat-Cave was Batman's first Batmobile which debuted in Tec 27.

Page Ten - Apex Chemicals refers to the case Batman solved in his first appearance. Here, Morrison is suggesting a connection between Apex and Batman's first real foe Dr Death that had never before been made.

Page Eleven - The Bat-Gyro first appeared in Tec 31 and the scene referenced (Gatling Gun and all) in this issue is from Tec 33.

Page Twelve - Batman battling Hugo Strange's Man-Monsters - or rather about to trick them into battling one another - is taken from Batman 1.

Page Thirteen - Death of the Grayson's of course, comes from Tec 38.

Page Fourteen - One of Batman's vehicles shown in the Cave is a Whirly Bat which didn't come into use until Tec 257 in 1958.

Page Sixteen - On display is Thomas Wayne's Bat-Man costume from Te 235, a collection of Batarangs most of which likely were introduced back in Tec 244 (and interestingly were on display in The Kingdon: Planet Krypton as part of Booster Gold's superhero themed restaurant), and the Bat-Radia. The thing about the batarang display, is that in that Kingdom special, Batman remarked that many of the items in Gold's collection caused him to experience a sensation of deja vu or nostalgia which didn't make sense as he had no idea what these objects were supposed to represent. Here, they presumably would make sense to him.

Page Seventeen - Alfred is feeding Ace and Bruce Wayne refers to Robin's motorcycle which I don't believe he began using until the late 1960's at the earliest.

The criminal tied up to the Scales of Justice is the head of the Cobra gang who debuted with the Betty Kane Batgirl in Batman 139. The Scale of Justice as well was at least one as a plot device in - I think - Batman 144 in which Robin explains to Batgirl that "this is the only woman for me".

The only kiss I remember Batman and Kathy Kane sharing is from Batman 153 which is referenced on Page 22. It would have fit in perfectly with Batman's history if the two had kissed right after Batwoman says "Dying wouldn't be so bad if I knew you loved me too" in this flashback. In that issue Batman kisses her but later claims to have done so only to make her feel better. In the Silver Age, Batman always kept her at arms length. Here, he seems unable to.

The giant typewriter Robin sits on pays homage to the giant props of the Dick Sprang era of Batman.

Another reference to Apex Chemicals. Apex has been bought out by Ace Chemicals which is the Chemical Company where the Red Hood jumped into a vat of acid to escape Batman thus becoming the Joker. Coincidentally (so far) in the first appearance of Apex, Batman knocks a bad guy into a vat of chemicals; in Tec 168 the Joker suffers a similar self-inflicted fate. Has the Joker taken over Apex and supplied others with "poisons and designer drugs" to make the rest of Batman's Rogues Gallery more dangerous perhaps creating a more violent world to accomadate his next personality change?

Page 22 - Robin's reference to Batman getting married to Batwoman is likely a nod to Batman 122 in which Robin dreams about the two of them doing just that.

"My soul dying...on another planet" is taken from Batman 153.

Robin's "I don't trust her" line isn't from any story I know of. May be another example of Batman creating a memory to keep him on his toes because he knows his mind is being invaded.

Page 23 - "Robin Dies at Dawn" Batman 156.

Page 24 - I don't know anything about The Lump and yes he looks like Clayface, but only the Clayface of the Animated Series (I guess modern times as well if that's how he's drawn in flashbacks and as Basil Karlo's Ultimate Clayface). Matt Hagen looked like a man covered in clay and nothing like the creature in this issue. Not really a clue or anything, but the artist isn't copying Clayface's appearance.

The Death of Alfred is taken from Tec 328 in which he died saving the lives of Batman and Robin. He was only brought back because the makers of the Adam West series asked Schwartz to bring him back. He returned in 1966, when it was revealed that the criminal mastermind who had been manipulating attacks on Batman and Robin while vowing to destroy everything they had before taking their lives, was an amnesiac Alfred.

"What's the connection between the chemicals and the crazy people?". Again, this must involve the Joker.

Page 25 "Card begins with a "C" " Sea". A take-off on the "The crime happened at sea" "Sea? 'C' for Catwoman!" exchange from the Adam West movie.

The villains include Catwoman in her green outfit (which I think debuted in Batman 197), The Eraser (old college classmate of Bruce Wayne's; real name Lenny Fiasco), the Joker and his side-kick Gaggy the Dwarf (from Batman 186), and the Penguin.

Page 26 Batman and Alfred closing up the Bat-Cave is taken from Batman 217.

"I made up a story once..." Alfred used to write stories about a possible future in which Batman and Batwoman got married, retired, and had a child who went on to become Robin II to Dick Grayson's Batman II (Batman 131).

An aside - the "I shall become... a moth!" joke reminds me of an old Mad or Cracked strip from years ago in which Bruce Wayne becomes everything from Squirrel-Man to Horse-Man. I think it's from whatever issue of Cracked came out in 1989 and parodied the Keaton film.

Anyways, I love the old comics and always hate it when they're referenced either so they can be made fun of, or paid lip-service to. Morrison seems to have a genuine affection for these tales however. There was nothing in here that seemed inconsistent with Batman's history (that is, some of it may have been assumed to have been removed from continuity at some point over the past 20 years, but most of this happened fairly faithfully with the exception of Morrison adjusting the time-line somewhat - ie. Batwoman's relationship being more serious than it ever was and the Batman/Robin rift developing at earlier date than it should have).

What a great post.

[GRANT!]

Don't get sassy with me. I'm reading Final Crisis---I'm just expressing what people who don't must be feeling

Thanks!!!

I'm not being sassy. You said there should be some indicator that it ties into Final Crisis and there is.

[GRANT!]

Yes, to create an army of mindless Batmen. But what are they really doing?

Creating an army of Batmen.

Okay I'm definitely being sassy here.

[AJM]

I didn't thing Batman Begins was all that artistically successful. Where it's derivative, it's weaker than the source; where it's original, it's weaker than the source. If it had been put out as a comic book story, it would have sunk without trace, I think. And in any case, it downplays a great deal of the, ahem, costume drama. (I understand DK creates its own world, but I haven't seen it yet.)

But anyway, the reason this flies at all as an idea is entirely because we've been acclimatized to the idea of superheroes, because we've all seen a bazillion of them by now. If anything, Batman becomes much more normal by comparison to, say the Legion of Superheroes. OTOH, next to a Sam Spade move he still looks very silly indeed.

Aside from the dodginess of the execution, I think Superman without superheroes looks like Smallville, and that kind of works. Why the costume at all? The science-fictiony side carries the day just fine -- but even then, we see how the core concept has to metastasize into many kryptonite affected characters, and then to many superheroes, just to give the character something to do except pout over Lana and get stroppy with Lex -- and we can see that in any overacted teen drama.

I disagree entirely. The very reason i and many others find Batman so attractive is that the very concept of his existence opposes accepted superhero mythology. He wasn't bitten by a radioactive spider or sent to earth from a dying planet to discover the laws of science were different to his homeworld; he didn't become powerful and then make a decision to use his newly acquired skills to help those less powerful than himself. Bruce Wayne was confronted with the worst the world had to offer, an incident that is all too possible in our own, real world. And unlike the superheroes, he chose to help people and then acquired the necessary power, training rigorously both physically and mentally. Batman is a true, human philanthropic hero, and we don't accept the concept because we've been acclimatized to superheroes, he works because he is an anti-superhero. And it's for this reason that i don't think he belongs among the meta-humans - he belongs exclusively on the streets of his beloved Gotham, helping those he vowed to as a young man.

As for Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, that's a matter of opinion, but i think that the origin of Batman shown in the first film is one of the best in any medium. My only criticism of this (and Dark Knight too) is that Batman hasn't been shown to be the street-level vigilante that he should be; we see him tackle crime bosses, ninjas and psychotic murderers but we haven't seen him halt a rape in a dark alley or save someone from a violent mugging. But i wept a little tear at the Waynes' funeral in Batman Begins, i don't think that any comic has ever given it as much depth or the weight it deserves. Writers often skim over it as a traditional superhero origin device but as i said above, Batman's origin is more than that. And this is what Batman Begins gets absolutely right.

And i cannot believe you haven't seen The Dark Knight.

[md62]

I enjoyed this issue more than the RIP story arc. As a long time reader with lots of reprinted material from the Golden Age it was a trip down memory lane. I have to give the poster "chad" a major compliment because he even knew what issues these events occurred in. Thanks for all the info!! Can't wait for the next issue.

[Mat001]

Yes, to create an army of mindless Batmen. But what are they really doing?

Creating an army of Batmen. They need to go through his memories in order to do this.

[Paul McEnery]

I disagree entirely. The very reason i and many others find Batman so attractive is that the very concept of his existence opposes accepted superhero mythology. He wasn't bitten by a radioactive spider or sent to earth from a dying planet to discover the laws of science were different to his homeworld; he didn't become powerful and then make a decision to use his newly acquired skills to help those less powerful than himself. Bruce Wayne was confronted with the worst the world had to offer, an incident that is all too possible in our own, real world. And unlike the superheroes, he chose to help people and then acquired the necessary power, training rigorously both physically and mentally. Batman is a true, human philanthropic hero, and we don't accept the concept because we've been acclimatized to superheroes, he works because he is an anti-superhero. And it's for this reason that i don't think he belongs among the meta-humans - he belongs exclusively on the streets of his beloved Gotham, helping those he vowed to as a young man.
.

Yeah, but that overlooks the context.

Batman ISN'T a superhero. He's a pulp hero in tights. The reference point for Batman is The Shadow (and similar characters from outside comics).

What needs justifying is the costume (and the sidekick). Those are the two "superhero" elements -- and a great many superheroes of the time had no more "super" about them than Batman, for that matter. All they had was a costume, and maybe some specialized weapons -- just like Doc Savage.

Batman only becomes an anomaly by the 60s, where suddenly there's Lee/Kirby/Ditko modern gods in tights, and then DC's full of them too, and then Batman has to Brave and the Bold all of them -- and then we have to start coming up with explanations for Batman as a hero because he doesn't shoot laser beams out of his nostrils.

All Miller's explanation does, in Year One, is take a cape that's lost its justification and restore a status quo. And it's a convincing explanation for the times -- especially as the alternative is Tim Burton's upgrade of Adam West Batman. If you're a serious-minded retarded adolescent -- and I certainly am! -- then which one do you find more flattering?

[Karl O'Neill]

is the next part of this last rites arc out next week or the week after?

I think Denny o'neill's issue of Detective is out next week which should be good.

[Paul McEnery]

is the next part of this last rites arc out next week or the week after?

I think Denny o'neill's issue of Detective is out next week which should be good.

Just in time for Final Crisis 7, I think.

So, months. :evilsmile:

And it's just occured to me -- not having realized there was going to be a Batman tie-in -- that Grant's just put us through the death of Superman and the death of Batman, and then given us two two-part tie-ins to the death of the entire DC Universe.

That's a nice bit of forward planning in, as it were, prepping the characters to fulfill a role.

[Chad]

I appreciate all the compliments made regarding my post - it's impossible to exagerate how much I love those old stories which I have never considered to be a blight upon Batman's history in any way. In fact, I can't help but think that Morrison's notion about the Joker recreating himself every few years to adapt with the times is more of a Batman characteristic than Joker trait. Gotham needs an eerie figure of the night to prey on criminals? Then that's what Batman will become. They need a daytime Caped Crusader to fight crime? That's the role he'll play. I don't see these memories as a defensive failsafe on Batman's part - I see them as an offensive move so clearly defined that it makes his later "I'm coming for you" threat unnecessary. He's telling Darkseid (or Dessad or whoever - I'm not up on my Fourth World lore) "You want to create an army of Batmen? I am an army of Batmen. If I can't defeat you as a Dark Knight, I'll take you down as a Caped Crusader or Gotham Goliath or etc., etc".

[DavidAllred]

Well I just finished my copy. Morrison has given me so much bang for my buck in other places... this one was just one big drain of cash. I didn't enjoy anything in it. The story is dragging, flashing forward, flashing backward, pulling from the back of Batman's history to slant something that only Morrison knows what.

I'm sorry, but he's had seven issues now. More if you count all the blasted pre-story. And you could sum what happened in a paragraph, the rest of it was trivia. And after you read your paragraph of what happened, you'd still have no freaking idea what just happened. Stuff just happened.

I love Morrison most usually, but I just can't enjoy this. I'm giving it one more issue, checking out Denny's story, and if nothing changes, I've got to hang my hat on this one as much as it pains me to say.

And I really feel bad for anyone waiting on the TPB. I mean what are they going to put in there? An incomplete, half-baked story with no conclusion?

[Captain Jim]

Crane and Grant--Enough!

[Captain Jim]

is the next part of this last rites arc out next week or the week after?

Part Two is in Batman #683, which isn't scheduled to be out until December 24.

I think Denny o'neill's issue of Detective is out next week which should be good.

Right on both accounts. And the second part of that will be in Batman #684, scheduled for December 31.

[Captain Jim]

...What the issue doesn’t offer, despite the promises of publisher and editors, is any sort of narrative “bridge” whatsoever explaining how Batman got from the end of “R.I.P.” to the beginning of Grant’s other current opus, Final Crisis.


That's certainly true of this issue. I'm hoping we'll see that in part two. If we don't, I'm not going to be very happy.

Btw, lawman, that was a great post. I know a lot of the Morrison worshipers are giving you grief on some other threads, but personally, I've liked your comments.

[Paul McEnery]

I appreciate all the compliments made regarding my post - it's impossible to exagerate how much I love those old stories which I have never considered to be a blight upon Batman's history in any way. In fact, I can't help but think that Morrison's notion about the Joker recreating himself every few years to adapt with the times is more of a Batman characteristic than Joker trait. Gotham needs an eerie figure of the night to prey on criminals? Then that's what Batman will become. They need a daytime Caped Crusader to fight crime? That's the role he'll play. I don't see these memories as a defensive failsafe on Batman's part - I see them as an offensive move so clearly defined that it makes his later "I'm coming for you" threat unnecessary. He's telling Darkseid (or Dessad or whoever - I'm not up on my Fourth World lore) "You want to create an army of Batmen? I am an army of Batmen. If I can't defeat you as a Dark Knight, I'll take you down as a Caped Crusader or Gotham Goliath or etc., etc".

Which plays into Grant's idea of the 21st Century human as a memeplex. Never mind the core identity and its will to continuity; create multiple personalities for different occasions!

[lawman]

That's certainly true of this issue. I'm hoping we'll see that in part two. If we don't, I'm not going to be very happy.

Btw, lawman, that was a great post. I know a lot of the Morrison worshipers are giving you grief on some other threads, but personally, I've liked your comments.
Much obliged. I'm always happy to accept a little egoboo. :smile:

I'm actually a bit surprised that some of Grant's defenders ("worshippers" may be a bit strong?) haven't responded to that post... inasmuch as, despite the criticism, it was actually a lot more charitable than what I've written about "R.I.P" or Final Crisis...

[lawman]

Which plays into Grant's idea of the 21st Century human as a memeplex. Never mind the core identity and its will to continuity; create multiple personalities for different occasions!
Human minds (and cultures) have always been host to meme complexes, if you take the term seriously as Dawkins intended: that's nothing new to this century. However, suggesting that this characteristic somehow undermines a sense of individual identity seems rather odd. In all likelihood, it does more to reinforce it.

(And if people—as opposed to fictional characters—really were to "create multiple personalities for different occasions," well, let's just say that would invite some pretty serious personality disorder diagnoses. If Grant is really advocating such a bizarre idea, either he's a deliberate agent of chaos, or he just hasn't thought through the consequences.)

[jobies201]

First we get a Grant Morrison 2-parter in Batman, then Denny will have a two parter starting in Detective ending in Batman, Dini will have a two pater starting in detective ending in Batman, then Neil does What ever happened to the Caped Crusader?


So, wait. I don't read Detective, I only have the money for one Batman comic and I chose "Batman." Does that mean I'm going to be pretty screwed in the next few months?

[Paul McEnery]

Human minds (and cultures) have always been host to meme complexes, if you take the term seriously as Dawkins intended: that's nothing new to this century. However, suggesting that this characteristic somehow undermines a sense of individual identity seems rather odd. In all likelihood, it does more to reinforce it.

(And if people—as opposed to fictional characters—really were to "create multiple personalities for different occasions," well, let's just say that would invite some pretty serious personality disorder diagnoses. If Grant is really advocating such a bizarre idea, either he's a deliberate agent of chaos, or he just hasn't thought through the consequences.)

Well no, this is a specific coinage of Morrison's, in the last issue of The Invisibles.

And yes, he's absolutely suggesting multiple personalities as a volitional adaptation. Peter Watts goes in the same direction in his latest book, Blindsight; where there are various other conditions which we'd regard as a disorder, but the characters would regard as an optimal adaptation.

See my upcoming interview with him in Humanity Plus.

And yes, of course he's a deliberate agent of chaos. Which part of "chaos magician" did you fail to understand? :evilsmile:

So yes, the whole Batman of Zur En Arrrh as a backup personality is something Grant practices himself.

So do I, for that matter.








And so does everyone else.

[Karl O'Neill]

Anybody else think lee Garbett done a decent job on art duties?

I did. some of his panels were great, and i like the way his style changed with the flashbacks and stuff.

[Clayton]

Anybody else think lee Garbett done a decent job on art duties?

I did. some of his panels were great, and i like the way his style changed with the flashbacks and stuff.

I know that I was floored really. It took me by suprise how great his art is. It felt like a clean take (without the cross hatching) on Jim Lee in a way.

[stillanerd]

After this issue, I think I've figured out what Morrison meant when he said Batman would meet a fate worse than death, and I'm not sure if this theory has been propositioned. In this issue, we have the Lump probing Batman's mind in order to create an army of Batmen for Darkseid, right? Well, my guess is that next issue, as was hinted in this one, Bruce figures out what is happening to him and, having prepared himself in the past what to do if he was ever psychically attacked, such as if the Martian Manhunter went rogue, he makes a mental image that creates a feedback loop and takes out the Lump.

However, by doing so, Batman becomes a vegetable.

Think about it. He wouldn't be able to walk, dress, bathe, or do anything without assistance. He wouldn't be able to speak, or write, or communicate in any way. He would see and hear and feel but be unable to respond. He would be alive, he would act alive. Just a mind trapped within his own body, unable to break free. In that sense, he makes a heroic sacrifice, doesn't actually die, allows a logical reason for why there needs to be a replacement, and also allows for the possibility for him to recover and come back some time in the future.

[Mat001]

So, wait. I don't read Detective, I only have the money for one Batman comic and I chose "Batman." Does that mean I'm going to be pretty screwed in the next few months?

Probably. The next two stories to be published after "Last Rites" will take place in both Batman and Detective. "The Last Days Of Gotham" and "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader?" are two part stories, covering both books. So if you have money to pay for a comic only once a month, then you're going to have a bit of a problem. But it is not impossible. Assuming you get your comics from a comic book store, you can get one comic and then wait the next month to get the other. Then repeat. By the time you get caught up, "Battle For The Cowl" will be here and you will be back to one story.

[lawman]

And yes, of course he's a deliberate agent of chaos. Which part of "chaos magician" did you fail to understand? :evilsmile:
The part where I was supposed to take it seriously, as opposed to as a load of pretentious bollocks? :redface:

(I like Alan Moore's writing a helluva lot more than Grant's, but I don't take him seriously either when he goes on about the occult...)

[Paul McEnery]

The part where I was supposed to take it seriously, as opposed to as a load of pretentious bollocks? :redface:

(I like Alan Moore's writing a helluva lot more than Grant's, but I don't take him seriously either when he goes on about the occult...)

Huh. Please yourself. But that's pretty much like saying of C.S. Lewis that you can't be arsed to know about Christianity, and what's this bloody talking lion doing coming back to life; or like refusing to read up the background on Yeats's occult symbolism (and what's this bloody rough beast slouching for).

Then again, that's just what I'm talking about. Insisting on realism to the point that the work that's actually there in front of your face becomes impossible to read. If you're not willing to accept that Grant works with ritual drama, mystical symbolism, and constructs works as if they were spells, then you're going to miss the whole point, aren't you.

[lawman]

Huh. Please yourself. But that's pretty much like saying of C.S. Lewis that you can't be arsed to know about Christianity...
Whole world of difference between "know about" and "believe in."

If you're not willing to accept that Grant works with ritual drama, mystical symbolism, and constructs works as if they were spells, then you're going to miss the whole point, aren't you.
I'm not denying that he may do this. I'm saying that if he does it, and moreover if such stuff is in fact "the whole point" (!!) of the stories he tells, then indeed I and a great many others are not going to get anything out of them, and have every right to criticize.

(Your mention of Lewis is actually a potent counter-example, since his fiction works as much more than just Christian allegory. If that were all there were to it he'd have had a much, much smaller readership.)

I just don't care about Grant's new-agey chaos-magician nonsense, any more than I care about Lewis' devout Christian nonsense. Insofar as they're aspects of each writer's respective fiction, I can look when someone points them out and take some intellectual interest—"hmm, clever the way he worked that in, there"—but I can't take either pile of ideology seriously on its own terms.

[vickvega]

Dr. Hurt’s first name is “Simon”? One of Batman’s tormentors is named “Simyan”? And a character named Kraken played a role in “RIP” and was also the name of the Alpha Lantern whose body Granny Goodness inhabited in Final Crisis?

Hmmm.

[dotdotdot]

Whole world of difference between "know about" and "believe in."


I'm not denying that he may do this. I'm saying that if he does it, and moreover if such stuff is in fact "the whole point" (!!) of the stories he tells, then indeed I and a great many others are not going to get anything out of them, and have every right to criticize.

(Your mention of Lewis is actually a potent counter-example, since his fiction works as much more than just Christian allegory. If that were all there were to it he'd have had a much, much smaller readership.)

I just don't care about Grant's new-agey chaos-magician nonsense, any more than I care about Lewis' devout Christian nonsense. Insofar as they're aspects of each writer's respective fiction, I can look when someone points them out and take some intellectual interest—"hmm, clever the way he worked that in, there"—but I can't take either pile of ideology seriously on its own terms.

well stop saying if, for one.
in grant's case, when the ideology isn't just thematic or a coloration for the narrative, but where it compels the structure of the plot, then yeah, there are things that many readers may miss out on if they chose to ignore the premise.
so in the above situation re: Grant and Lewis.....why does it take someone else pointing these things out? why don't you take them seriously in their context as themes and structural tools in the fiction like any responsible reader? it's not as if this entails you throw in your lot with either one. i don't know what's behind this need for detachment other then laziness disguised as feigned disinterest.

[dotdotdot]

Dr. Hurt’s first name is “Simon”? One of Batman’s tormentors is named “Simyan”? And a character named Kraken played a role in “RIP” and was also the name of the Alpha Lantern whose body Granny Goodness inhabited in Final Crisis?

Hmmm.

i think you're 2 for 3 there.

[Red_Knight]

Dr. Hurt’s first name is “Simon”? One of Batman’s tormentors is named “Simyan”? And a character named Kraken played a role in “RIP” and was also the name of the Alpha Lantern whose body Granny Goodness inhabited in Final Crisis?

Hmmm.

I can see where you are coming from, but I think you're reaching quite a bit.

I mean, we can't ignore the fact that Hurt tempered with Bruce's brain waaay back when and also created the "Three Ghosts". He isn't a brand-new character that Morrison invented for R.I.P. It has been established that Dr. Hurt actually interacted with the Bat Family in the past, so for your theory to be correct, we'd have to assume that Simyan started posing as Hurt and messing with Bats at least a decade ago in comic-book-time. IMO, that doesn't make sense. But even if that could be explained, I fail to see why a servant of Darkseid would bother disguising his experiments as a party for bored yuppie scumbags. It just doesn't add up.

As far King Kraken is concerned, he was pretty much a throwaway character in R.I.P. The same can be said for Alpha Lantern Kraken in FC. If these two characters shared a similar theme or backgrounds or at least played a more significant role, I guess you could have a point, but I don't see it.

[Paul McEnery]

I can see where you are coming from, but I think you're reaching quite a bit.

I mean, we can't ignore the fact that Hurt tempered with Bruce's brain waaay back when and also created the "Three Ghosts". He isn't a brand-new character that Morrison invented for R.I.P. It has been established that Dr. Hurt actually interacted with the Bat Family in the past, so for your theory to be correct, we'd have to assume that Simyan started posing as Hurt and messing with Bats at least a decade ago in comic-book-time. IMO, that doesn't make sense. But even if that could be explained, I fail to see why a servant of Darkseid would bother disguising his experiments as a party for bored yuppie scumbags. It just doesn't add up.

As far King Kraken is concerned, he was pretty much a throwaway character in R.I.P. The same can be said for Alpha Lantern Kraken in FC. If these two characters shared a similar theme or backgrounds or at least played a more significant role, I guess you could have a point, but I don't see it.

It makes a little more sense than that, I think.

In the first place, there's the thematic unity with The Invisibles, where Bad Guys From Beyond were summoned to this plane for Orgies of Evil with rich bastards. And also with the homage to the Marquis de Sade, where we've got the same types of character (cleric, officer, banker) clustered round the Bad Guy From Beyond. Whether or not we accept the personification of evil, these are the guys who are evil personified.

Throw in the fact that Darkseid falling through time has apparently corrupted our universe to the point that his minions have been possessing people, well, how far back can that go? And even if Hurt wasn't Simyan beforehand -- well, now the corruption's set in, maybe he was. Or maybe he's just now wearing Hurt as a fleshsuit.

But under the circs, I'd still go with Desaad.:biggrin:







Or, alternatively, when we consider that Batman is wearing a myth as a flesh suit, and he's deconstructed his own personality to the ground, and has back up personalities, maybe it would make more sense to think of evil as a distributed intelligence, nested like a computer virus in everyone's brain.

[Pawpower]

I read, then re-read. Ok I am 38 years old, and have read comics since I was 10. I have read, complex comics, and some of the most stupid stories ever. But my response to this issue, and I have been enjoying most of the RIP run is this..


WTF???:confused: :confused:


I feel like I have been on acid and trying to read this book??:eek:

[Mat001]

Dr. Hurt’s first name is “Simon”? One of Batman’s tormentors is named “Simyan”? And a character named Kraken played a role in “RIP” and was also the name of the Alpha Lantern whose body Granny Goodness inhabited in Final Crisis?

Hmmm.

No, it's not in his head as evidenced by Two-Face telling Nightwing that he knows about Batman running around in a different costume. And the fact that all of the supporting cast have interacted with the Black Glove and Club Of Villains. Besides, Simyan doesn't talk. Mokkari does. These two are the same as before because they cloned themselves which is why they are the only Fourth World survivors. Same as Gog is the only Third World survivor. That said, it wouldn't be impossible if Simon Hurt wasn't working for a time traveling Darkseid or if Hurt wasn't the host for Dessad or someone else in Darkseid's employ.

[Red_Knight]

WTF???:confused: :confused:


I feel like I have been on acid and trying to read this book??:eek:

Well, Morrison tends to do that. :tongue:

What exactly did you have trouble with? It was basically a highlights reel of Batman's career, taking into account ALL incarnations of the characters, and including some disturbances courtesy of the telepathic Lump. I actually thought it was pretty straightforward. Then again, I knew from the start that Batman was strapped in Darkseid's mind machine, so I guess that helped.

[Paul McEnery]

No, it's not in his head as evidenced by Two-Face telling Nightwing that he knows about Batman running around in a different costume. And the fact that all of the supporting cast have interacted with the Black Glove and Club Of Villains. Besides, Simyan doesn't talk. Mokkari does. These two are the same as before because they cloned themselves which is why they are the only Fourth World survivors. Same as Gog is the only Third World survivor. That said, it wouldn't be impossible if Simon Hurt wasn't working for a time traveling Darkseid or if Hurt wasn't the host for Dessad or someone else in Darkseid's employ.

Jinx!

I'll take that acid-laced coke now, please! :evilsmile:

[Paul McEnery]

I read, then re-read. Ok I am 38 years old, and have read comics since I was 10. I have read, complex comics, and some of the most stupid stories ever. But my response to this issue, and I have been enjoying most of the RIP run is this..


WTF???:confused: :confused:


I feel like I have been on acid and trying to read this book??:eek:

Nah. If you were on acid, you'd be able to perceive the underlying patterns of the universe, and this'd give you no trouble at all. :evilsmile:

[AlistairCrane]

Do you think Battle of the Cowl is (part of) DC's plans to celebrate Batman's 70th anniversary?

Looking back at this year, I don't feel like Superman and the Legion really got all that much for their 70th and 40th anniveraries respectively...

[Paul McEnery]

Do you think Battle of the Cowl is (part of) DC's plans to celebrate Batman's 70th anniversary?

Looking back at this year, I don't feel like Superman and the Legion really got all that much for their 70th and 40th anniveraries respectively...

70 years -- here's your gold watch and headstone.

[carabas]

Do you think Battle of the Cowl is (part of) DC's plans to celebrate Batman's 70th anniversary?

Looking back at this year, I don't feel like Superman and the Legion really got all that much for their 70th and 40th anniveraries respectively...DC (or rather their owners) don't like the number 70. This came up in a thread on the Superman board. They're not allowed to celebrate the 70 year anniversary, everything is saved up for the 75 year one.

[Ben Reilly#6]

DC (or rather their owners) don't like the number 70. This came up in a thread on the Superman board. They're not allowed to celebrate the 70 year anniversary, everything is saved up for the 75 year one.

Please tell me that's just a sarcastic joke.

[Paul McEnery]

Please tell me that's just a sarcastic joke.

If it were my grandfather, I'd give a toss. For a fictional character, who cares?




Hey everyone, it's johnny carson's birthday! That's real important, right?

[DonC]

DC (or rather their owners) don't like the number 70. This came up in a thread on the Superman board. They're not allowed to celebrate the 70 year anniversary, everything is saved up for the 75 year one.


My understanding of the 70th anniversary stuff only comes from a Summer or Superman organizer I talked with here in Cleveland. What he told me was that DC doesn't want their characters to seem dated. That's why DC refused permission to use Superman's name and likeness in any events. If DC is waiting for Superman's 75th anniversary, he didn't tell me.

[ThreeDays]

Whole world of difference between "know about" and "believe in."

I'm not denying that he may do this. I'm saying that if he does it, and moreover if such stuff is in fact "the whole point" (!!) of the stories he tells, then indeed I and a great many others are not going to get anything out of them, and have every right to criticize.


I just don't care about Grant's new-agey chaos-magician nonsense, any more than I care about Lewis' devout Christian nonsense. Insofar as they're aspects of each writer's respective fiction, I can look when someone points them out and take some intellectual interest—"hmm, clever the way he worked that in, there"—but I can't take either pile of ideology seriously on its own terms.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the conversation, but I don't see why any of that should really negatively impact one's ability to follow or enjoy the story. When Neil Gaiman wrote "The Books of Magic" — presenting the origin of the DC Universe, in fact — or "The Sandman," I don't feel that he was asking us to believe in Christianity in the real world. I just saw it as using a particular mythology he found interesting to tell some great stories.

Even if one is agnostic or outright atheist, one's suspension of disbelief can — or should be able to — allow for one to accept something like the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob creating the universe in a fictional narrative. If you can do that, and I get the impression that you can do so easily enough, then you should be able to accept the structure itself of a story being based on a philosophical concept.

It doesn't ask that you believe in the concept or even like it. You may not even like how the story turns out. But being unwilling to look at it in a way that goes hand-in-hand with the way it was designed doesn't suggest a shortcoming on the part of the story or the writer.

You couldn't watch the Nolans' "Memento" and insist on taking the first scene shown as the beginning of the story chronologically.

(Your mention of Lewis is actually a potent counter-example, since his fiction works as much more than just Christian allegory. If that were all there were to it he'd have had a much, much smaller readership.)

In fairness, Lewis — and Tolkien as well — incorporated Christian allegory because it's what they knew. Both of them were Christians, and though they both claimed they didn't set out to do a Christian allegory, that's largely what they ended up doing.

I imagine it's much the same for Morrison. He's going with what interests him, what he's invested in, what he knows. It's going to find its way in there, whether he wants it to or not.

[Pixie_Solanas]

I just don't really understand the people bashing Morrison's Batman output. I've been reading comics for a little over 25 years now and i've never, ever been glued to the character like I have for Morrison's run (except for maybe Miller's original DK run).

This is comic book writing at its majestic best. Never dumbed-down for the audience, never the easy schtick, no overblown fight scenery, no paperthin characterizations. Everything is integral to the plot, even some "throwaway" sequence in the book six months ago. It's a lovely little puzzle and DC is better off for having him write their flagship character.

And "micro-sleeps"? That little gem right there was worth the cover price and then some. Brutally brilliant stuff that i'll miss terribly when faced with the pedestrian no-frills linear storyline that's sure to follow with his successors (and chalk me up as one to not automatically fawn all over Neil Gaiman - i've read plenty of his comic work that put me to sleep as well as excited the hell out of me).

[nepenthes]

what really gets me about the Morrison bashers is when they complain about us ridiculing their intelligence and imply that we're somehow bad people because of it. that we're all snotty elitists or something. of course we will ridicule their intelligence. that's the whole point :rolleyes:

[perceval]

Have you considered the possibility that people who aren't caring for Morrison's run, as ultra hyped as it is, may not be "too stupid" to "get" it? Maybe they're more than smart enough, but just don't like it? Loeb's Hush was very hyped and popular, too. Didn't care for it, anyway, despite the pretty art. The hype machines, at one time, declared us "too stupid" to "get" it if we didn't think Rob Liefeld was amazing. Some of us just aren't zombies, and judge this stuff on it's own merits, even if it makes us "uncool" to not be that into whatever the Flavor of the Moment is, whether it's Liefeld, Loeb, or Morrison.

I do see what Morrison is going for, but I think Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore do this sort of thing so much better than he does. They put all these symbols and larger themes in their work, but never let it distract from the story they're telling. They're not spending their time in the story telling us how clever we're supposed to see them. I've liked most of Morrison's work over the years, and really wanted to like his run on Batman..

I've liked Dini's Detective run so much more. It's complex, but in a far more subtle way than Morrison's. It enhances the story if you know the histories of these characters, and have a familiarity with Film Noir and German Expressionism and the styles and symbols used (which happen to be the very roots of Batman), but you can still enjoy Dini's run without all that. The characters and stories stand on their own. Compare how the two writers use the past to bring about the present. Dini does it with little flashbacks peppered throughout his run, little glimpses into the pasts of Bruce, Tommy, Zatanna, Harley, the two Ventriloquists, and others, creating a perfect tapestry that makes the entire run best read all together, seeing how all the pieces fit the overall puzzle. But... the individual stories work just fine on their own, too. Compare that with Morrison's heavy handed approach of digging up the most obscure Silver Age stories he can find. You don't need annotations to know what's going on in Dini's stories.

I also like how grey Dini's Gotham is, where nothing is Black and White, purely Good and Evil. He's populated his Gotham with all sorts of people who just don't fit into a simple Hero or Villain designation like Selina, Harley, Holly, Ed, and even Oswald. Morrison's never been comfortable with the grey areas, which became very obvious when he was having the characters discuss Bruce's past loves and blatently omitted mention of the most famous one, Selina, and hoped we wouldn't remember her. Selina's very existence, and her relationship with Bruce undercuts Morrison's entire run, demonstrated when Dini used her. Selina just being there exposed Jezebel Jet as the empty shell of a character and plot device that she was. One rule for writing when trying to establish a romance is Show, not Tell. We were shown a multi-layered relationship between Bruce and Selena, while what we got with Bruce and Jezebel was Bruce was falling for this woman, declaring her "the One," just because the writer was saying so.

Morrison did try to explain Bruce's attraction to less than entirely moral women by having him say he was attracted to the Darkness, but that's just not it. His relationship with Selina is a lot more complicated than that. But then, so are Bruce and Selina as characters. That's going back to the Noir and German Expressionist roots. Dini's been able to tell these layered stories with complex characters without waving his arms around and yelling "Hey! Look at how layered and complex and clever my story is!" It's still, at heart, an entertaining detective story, and can be enjoyed just on that level. And, that's what Batman is, a detective solving mysteries. So many writers seem to have forgotten that over the last several years, that it's a lot more that makes him different from Superman than not having powers and being grim.

Say, you know someone who's watched the animated series, The Dark Knight, and other things, and is curious about giving the Batman comics a try. Which run would serve as a better introduction to the comics, something that will get that person to want to read more, say "This is great!" rather than "What the...?! I was wanting to read a Batman story?"

[lawman]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the conversation, but I don't see why any of that should really negatively impact one's ability to follow or enjoy the story. When Neil Gaiman wrote "The Books of Magic" — presenting the origin of the DC Universe, in fact — or "The Sandman," I don't feel that he was asking us to believe in Christianity in the real world. I just saw it as using a particular mythology he found interesting to tell some great stories.
Yes, I absolutely agree. The argument here is about the proposition that what Morrison is doing is substantively different from that.

The proposition is that Morrison's handling of Batman has relied on, and thus requires readers to buy into, his esoteric notions of reality... and thus that his stories don't work, have no internal logic or thematic point, unless one does so.

I don't know that I necessarily agree with this proposition (which is why I keep using the word "if" despite how it annoys some posters). Tackling it for the sake of argument, however, some folks here seem to think it's a good thing. I strongly disagree.

[lawman]

I do see what Morrison is going for, but I think Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore do this sort of thing so much better than he does. They put all these symbols and larger themes in their work, but never let it distract from the story they're telling. They're not spending their time in the story telling us how clever we're supposed to see them. I've liked most of Morrison's work over the years, and really wanted to like his run on Batman.
Quoted for truth! You and I are completely on the same page here.

I've liked Dini's Detective run so much more. It's complex, but in a far more subtle way than Morrison's. It enhances the story if you know the histories of these characters, and have a familiarity with Film Noir and German Expressionism and the styles and symbols used (which happen to be the very roots of Batman), but you can still enjoy Dini's run without all that. The characters and stories stand on their own. ...

One rule for writing when trying to establish a romance is Show, not Tell. We were shown a multi-layered relationship between Bruce and Selena, while what we got with Bruce and Jezebel was Bruce was falling for this woman, declaring her "the One," just because the writer was saying so.
Absolutely. Dini's "Heart of Hush" saga was IMHO disappointing plotwise, compared to most of his run... but even so the final scenes with Selina were far more emotionally authentic than anything I've seen from Morrison. I never bought Jezebel as anything but a plot device.

[Liberty Belle Fan]

I understand there is a great deal of debate going on in the posts above, but I really just wanted to post my thoughts on #682 as a stand-alone issue.

First of all, I really enjoyed the cover. If that doesn't jump off the stands and temporarily blind you, I don't know what will. I also think GM did a great job with an issue of this type - good pacing, a little humor, mystery, and a cliffhanger. I haven't enjoyed a comic book more than Final Crisis in the past couple of years, and the fact that Batman is tying into that story and we see the Dark Knight's fate in the pages of FC is great - highly looking forward to the next issue.

[perceval]

I did enjoy the little shout out to the Adam West 1966 movie with the "C, sea" thing. Wasn't expecting it, but pleased he did it.

[Lupek]

I am late again but having just read this...

It's a Wonderful Life Batman and it's the Cabinet of Dr Caligari and it's great. The Dr Hurt mystery is still a mystery and I like it. Bruce's imagined (or remembered) flashbacks have been very interesting, from the Moth to the original Batwoman, especially that bit about her soul going off to another world. Would that be Zurr-en-arhhh?

I wonder if Bat-Mite will come to Bruces aid to fight the Lump. The lack of healthy relationships with women, the micro problem solving naps and in general, Bruce pushing himself to the point of the degradation of his mind throughout Morrisons run has been fascinating. I look forward to see where he takes Bruce. It's not often that Bruce is more interesting to me than Batman but Bruce gets more interesting with each psychotic delusion (revelation?).

I am pretty wary of DC handing the bat books between when Morrison leaves and when he returns. But I shall see where it goes and hope for the best.