Batman in RIP vs Batman in Final Crisis

[edhopper]

So the Batman of RIP can overcome any situation. But the Batman of Final Crisis is taken out in one panel.
Maybe the writers of those two books should talk to each other...oh, wait!?!

[koshunter]

I don't have the issue on hand but wasn't it a surprise attack in Final Crisis?

[Jake V]

is this an actual question or just some weird, misplaced nerd rage?

[DarKye]

You're assuming Batman's plan wasn't letting the Evil Gods kidnap him and then be rescued a month later so he can strike back from within their HQ. Because he's Batman.

[edhopper]

is this an actual question or just some weird, misplaced nerd rage?

Definitely weird misplaced nerd rage.:biggrin:

[GRANT!]

He's just waiting to make his next move.

[edhopper]

Ah, the Blackadder ploy. We await his cunning plan.

[Chiroptera]

Am I the only one who thinks Ed actually makes a really GOOD point here?

[Mat001]

Batman was taken down by a Green Lantern ring and is held in Evil God technology. He has not prepared for this scenario.

[Kuma]

Batman? Not prepared for a Lantern ring? the guy hated Hal Jordan up until recently

[carabas]

Not a Green Lantern ring, but a half Manhunter Alpha Lantern with an internal, everlasting link to the main power thingy back on Oa, which wascreated to take out Green Lanterns.
It's really hard to prepare for stuff that has only existed for a few months and has never even been seen on Earth.

[Jack Tango]

Am I the only one who thinks Ed actually makes a really GOOD point here?

Yes. A team of scheming, Machiavellian villains is not on the same level as a higher-dimensional being occupying the body of an alien with a magic wishing ring.

[Death by Mime]

Incidentally, in light of the invincible Bat-god of R.I.P., I find the way he got taken out in Final Crisis to be even more hilarious.

"So how did Batman get taken down?"

"He tried to fight a Green Lantern."

"Oh."

[mofo]

Incidentally, in light of the invincible Bat-god of R.I.P., I find the way he got taken out in Final Crisis to be even more hilarious.

"So how did Batman get taken down?"

"He tried to fight a Green Lantern."

"Oh."

that should read ALPHA lantern
psshhht

[edhopper]

Incidentally, in light of the invincible Bat-god of R.I.P., I find the way he got taken out in Final Crisis to be even more hilarious.

"So how did Batman get taken down?"

"He tried to fight a Green Lantern."

"Oh."

Thanks for the Kick.
Incidentally, that is the whole point of my OP.

[edhopper]

Am I the only one who thinks Ed actually makes a really GOOD point here?

Thanks. It's the fact that Morrison wrote them both that I find funny.

[Red_Knight]

I'm sorry, but this pseudo-point the op is trying to make seems downright laughable to me.

There is a huge difference between outsmarting a cabal of bored yuppies and weekend super villains and being confronted by an evil alien GOD inside a locked-down room. Anything but Batman's defeat and capture would have been laughable.

[ruppan]

There is a huge difference between outsmarting a cabal of bored yuppies and weekend super villains and being confronted by an evil alien GOD inside a locked-down room. Anything but Batman's defeat and capture would have been laughable.

You mean the "evil alien GOD" that Batman's encountered on repeated occasions and totally outsmarted in Superman/Batman? And remember that the "cabal of yuppies and weekend super villains" are allegedly the greatest threat ever faced by Batman and its leader is purported to be the devil himself.

IMO, the Darkseid in FC is a shadow of his former self. It was purported leading into FC that Darkseid would be elevated into a truly God-like power, note the capital "G." However, the Darkseid in FC appears to be considerably weaker than his former self.

Examples abound. First, compare his takeover of the Earth in FC to his domination of Daxam in The Great Darkness Saga ("GDS"). In FC, he has to use human technology to mind control a portion of Earth's human population. In GDS, he simply decides to mind control all of Daxam and its done. With a few hand gestures he completely reshapes an entire planet. For my money, the GDS Darkseid is orders of magnitude more powerful than the FC Darkseid.

Another example is Darkseid's need for a host body in FC. On numerous past occasions, Darkseid has created Silver Surfer level beings with the snap of his fingers. In FC, he's reliant upon jumping from one frail human body to another. The clear inference from this is that Darkseid has lost an ability or power.

When you add the above to the fact that Darkseid may not even be the biggest villain in FC, it's hard to consider him as the God of Evil. His power levels seems more consistent with a demon of Trigon's level as he was recently portrayed in Titans, i.e. incredibly weakened.

[edhopper]

I'm sorry, but this pseudo-point the op is trying to make seems downright laughable to me.

There is a huge difference between outsmarting a cabal of bored yuppies and weekend super villains and being confronted by an evil alien GOD inside a locked-down room. Anything but Batman's defeat and capture would have been laughable.




Oh yeah? Sez you.

[Red_Knight]

You mean the "evil alien GOD" that Batman's encountered on repeated occasions and totally outsmarted in Superman/Batman?

First of all, that was back in Darkseid's "alien warlord" days. Morrison has stated that he'll be something more in FC. Secondly, Batman knew he was going up against Darkseid in S/B, had ample time to prepare, equipped himself with alien technology and was flanked by both Superman and Wonder Woman.

In FC, no one knows what the heck is up, and Batman is confronted -- inside a locked-down room -- by alien GODDESS Granny Goodness in the body of a super-powered alien with a power ring.

These two situations are extremely different. There's no denying that.

And remember that the "cabal of yuppies and weekend super villains" are allegedly the greatest threat ever faced by Batman and its leader is purported to be the devil himself.

IIRC, the mastermind behind the Black Glove is supposed to be the greatest threat Batman ever faced; -- the "ultimate evil bastard", as Morrison put it in an interview. I think we can all agree that Bats wouldn't have needed more than an issue to wipe the floor with the COV and the Fingers Of The Glove if it wasn't for Hurt. Hurt's machinations, on more than one occasion, put Bruce in a place where the Black Glove could have killed him if they wanted to. What saved him was the fact that they wanted to see him corrupted and broken instead.

Besides, this is a comic book we are reading. The greatest threat a hero has ever faced is always going to be the one he is facing currently. Otherwise, why would we keep buying?

Coming up with credible threats for a specimen like Batman has become increasingly hard, -- but I think a surprise attack by a God of Apokolips should suffice to convince us that he might be in trouble.

[ruppan]

First of all, that was back in Darkseid's "alien warlord" days. Morrison has stated that he'll be something more in FC. Secondly, Batman knew he was going up against Darkseid in S/B, had ample time to prepare, equipped himself with alien technology and was flanked by both Superman and Wonder Woman.

In FC, no one knows what the heck is up, and Batman is confronted -- inside a locked-down room -- by alien GODDESS Granny Goodness in the body of a super-powered alien with a power ring.

These two situations are extremely different. There's no denying that.



IIRC, the mastermind behind the Black Glove is supposed to be the greatest threat Batman ever faced; -- the "ultimate evil bastard", as Morrison put it in an interview. I think we can all agree that Bats wouldn't have needed more than an issue to wipe the floor with the COV and the Fingers Of The Glove if it wasn't for Hurt. Hurt's machinations, on more than one occasion, put Bruce in a place where the Black Glove could have killed him if they wanted to. What saved him was the fact that they wanted to see him corrupted and broken instead.

Besides, this is a comic book we are reading. The greatest threat a hero has ever faced is always going to be the one he is facing currently. Otherwise, why would we keep buying?

Coming up with credible threats for a specimen like Batman has become increasingly hard, -- but I think a surprise attack by a God of Apokolips should suffice to convince us that he might be in trouble.

I think I've already addressed all of your points in my prior post, but I'm just curious why you capitalized "GODDESS." Are you implying the difference between a goddess and a Goddess?

[Red_Knight]

I think I've already addressed all of your points in my prior post, but I'm just curious why you capitalized "GODDESS." Are you implying the difference between a goddess and a Goddess?

Actually, I addressed your response to my points in my previous post, and your "curiosity" strikes me as kind of odd. Still, if you'd like to know: I capitalized GODDESS because, AFAIK, it doesn't happen everyday that Bruce Wayne gets jumped and pummeled by cosmic entities like this, so I thought it warranted emphasis.

Either way, I'm out. It seems to me you are satisfied to find clever ways to say "OMG!1! Morrison is teh SUCK!" and aren't interested in any real discussion. So, have fun.

[Mat001]

Granny is now more powerful than she was previously. Same with Darkseid. He's using the Anti-Life Equation to rule the world. The very thing he's been looking for since Kirby created him. He doesn't need a planet of Superman wannabes to take the Earth. He needs the ability to subvert people's wills to his.

Anyway, Batman was taken down by a poisonous construct created by the power ring. A quick acting venom that paralyzes it's victims instantaniously. After that, it's a month of being tortured and tormented way worse than he's ever experienced and what he just went through with the Black Glove will be like a walk in the park, compared to the hell he's about to endure.

[Jake V]

Who says that Batman isn't gonna eventually defeat Darkseid?

All that happened was that Granny Goodness with a Power Ring got the drop on him. The Black Glove managed to knock him out twice, so far Darkseid and his minions only did that once.

[carabas]

You mean the "evil alien GOD" that Batman's encountered on repeated occasions and totally outsmarted in Superman/Batman? And remember that the "cabal of yuppies and weekend super villains" are allegedly the greatest threat ever faced by Batman and its leader is purported to be the devil himself.

IMO, the Darkseid in FC is a shadow of his former self. It was purported leading into FC that Darkseid would be elevated into a truly God-like power, note the capital "G." However, the Darkseid in FC appears to be considerably weaker than his former self.Eh, what?
Rarely has Darkseid been potrayed weaker than he was in Superman/Batman, where he was mere cannonfodder. And rarely has he been portrayed more powerful, more in control, more Darkseid, than he is in Final Crisis.

[ruppan]

Actually, I addressed your response to my points in my previous post, and your "curiosity" strikes me as kind of odd. Still, if you'd like to know: I capitalized GODDESS because, AFAIK, it doesn't happen everyday that Bruce Wayne gets jumped and pummeled by cosmic entities like this, so I thought it warranted emphasis.

Either way, I'm out. It seems to me you are satisfied to find clever ways to say "OMG!1! Morrison is teh SUCK!" and aren't interested in any real discussion. So, have fun.

I wasn't disrespecting your opinion. I'm just done arguing in circles in these threads. Disagreement isn't a personal attack so you shouldn't feel so hurt.

My curiosity stems from the difference between God and a god in the DC cosmology, which I think Morrison has referenced in his alleged elevation of Darkseid. Could Batman take a god? Sure, because some of the gods in the DCU are pretty weak, and can be taken down by mortals. For example, I think Batman could win a fight with Bekka. Could Batman take God? Well, that's just blasphemy.

Eh, what?
Rarely has Darkseid been potrayed weaker than he was in Superman/Batman, where he was mere cannonfodder. And rarely has he been portrayed more powerful, more in control, more Darkseid, than he is in Final Crisis.

Darkseid hasn't displayed any personal power in FC. He hasn't done anything! All the mayhem perpetrated has been by his minions.

I think your estimation of FC Darkseid's power is based purely upon subjective perception because there are no objective actions, i.e. feats, that FC Darkseid has to his name. Maybe you base your perceptions upon the reactions of his minions or the milieu Morrison's created around FC Darkseid. I don't know, and I'm not putting words in your mouth. But, unless you've read issues of FC that I haven't, then there's no objective basis for a favorable comparison between FC Darkseid and any of his prior representations, incarnations, etc.

BTW, I think it's commonly acknowledged that S/B is one of Darkseid's worst showings. Every big character has bad showings. However, if Grant is credibly trying to fulfill his intention of elevating Darkseid, he needs to raise Darkseid over his best showings, not his worst. AFAIK, S/B Darkseid in continuity is the same Darkseid as in The Great Darkness Saga. So, if he's really elevating this FC incarnation of Darkseid over the pre-FC incarnation, he needs to outdo appearances like The Great Darkness Saga. Otherwise, his hype is just an insult to the non-Kirby creators who have handled Darkseid well.

[joint venture]

Like I said somewhere else, this post demands it:

Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman are the DCU. So taking responsibility for the character for once and elevating him to deity status isn't that far stretched.

I mean; Morrison is in both books, defining the future of the character (at least for a while) and he knows that Batman represents intelligence and the physical epitome of a human being, Whether his motivations are whacked, that's another story.

Superman and Wonder Woman are already placed in a deity garden, proof of that is them missing here until they HAVE to make an appearance or take action against something they do not like.

Batman knows the new Gods quite well and has outsmarted them always when confronted. So "this is the time you will wear the cowl" doesn't exactly mean that he will die. Perhaps he will be raised to another level. A Spectre, a Dr. Faith or a Phantom Stranger...or better.

I'm sure he isn't taking a nap wherever they have him restrained.

Darkseid might become evil incarnate once he runs out of bodies to corrode or invade in FC, either they turn back time a everybody's there having fun with their new strawberry shortcake and jem and the holograms toys...

Or something interesting rises out of this mess. Maybe that machine is preparing Batman to be the next recipient for Darkseid.

And pick COSMIC ODYSSEY from Starlin and Mignola I think. Good insight on the New Gods.