Batman RIP Biggest Failure was Timing

[Sidepocket]

Seriously.

I think one of the things I like what Marvel does even in the BS way is to tie their current stories with the movies being released. So like, when Spider-Man comes out they use the movie villains and the black suit comes back, Iron Monger comes back in Iron Man, ect.

I think this is were DC failed big time in this book.

The Dark Knight came out. Many of my friends who only associated with the Batman character via pop culture and TV found the movie's story so good, they actually thought about going out and picking up and Batman comic. I mean hay, if the movies are based on the books then the books must be as every bit as good as the Nolan movies, right?

Well...I had to later to promise them that the graphic novels (Long Halloween, Year One, ect) were much better, hell even Heart of Hush.

Because for many of the people I know around the shops, RIP broke their spirits.

I mean just imagine this...

You see this amazing movie that has a real vision, realistic action and characters. It has real philosophical and ethical arguments and intense action with none of the campyness of the 60's.

So you go out and open a Batman comic...

And here is Batman insane, running around in bright colors, there is some guy named Hurt who nobody has ever heard of along with some woman named Jezebel (WTF name?) who is even worse than Katie Homes' Rachel. Zen-Ur-Ah, Bat Mite, Nightwing getting a lobotomy, some reject club of villains, decompression chamber, hallucination and the main villain is supposedly the Devil.

...

This is not what people who wanted to see what the comics were like paid to see.

Like I said, I had to convince many people to read anything BUT RIP to get them to understand why us comic fans enjoy Batman so much.

Why do I have a feeling that DC lost many potential new customers because they let druggie Morrison write the death of a now extremely popular character that people are just truly getting to know about?

[kentish]

Let' just hope any curious fan that wanted to check out a comic after seeing DK also picked up Detective.

[Kiryu]

Yeah, but multiple sources in the industry frequently mention that movies do not substantially impact the monthly book but increase sales of graphic novels. Which makes sense on every level. Would anyone buy a half destroyed comic from a Barnes and Noble rack? I doubt it. Would they buy trades? Hell yes.

Also, you over estimate greatly how many people who saw TDK went to or had a LCS available. I would say that the number of people who wanted to know more about Batman in a comic and went to a bookstore to browse trades severely outnumbers those who went in to a comic store to check out floppies.

You mention a guy "Dr Hurt who nobody has heard of", well so what? Should all the books have been Scarecrow, Ra's Ah Ghul, Joker, and Two-Face stories because those are the only characters in Nolan's movies?

And also, your experiences are no absolute. I got three people into Batman by introducing them to RIP and Morrison's run. And I present it as an example of WHY I enjoy Batman so much. So, y'know, completely the opposite.

So, I don't see how RIP failed anywhere. It was a commercial success, which means nothing to me, and was a story I enjoyed.

[Zombie Uatu]

I disagree. People watching the movies and rushing out to buy Batman comics would have found an intense, psychological story which struck to the core of the Dark Knight in a similar way that the movies did. RIP intentionally utilised the Joker in a wicked, nasty way, intentionally visually similar to the character from the movie. Sure, it was weird and a little trippy, but in a way, so was the recent movie. RIP would have provided a great read for someone expecting something like the movies.

[Killsocket]

If they are looking into the comics after BB and TDK, I hope they don't get the latest stuff. Whether it is good or bad, it's not the same. I am in the same boat but I am "starting" at Year One and moving forward and totally having a blast doing so. I have no interest in RIP, just yet, I gotta get to Robin first! :biggrin:

[Karl O'Neill]

just emjoy the comics, forget the movies. This is the main reason i buy more dc comics than marvel, I think marvel cater to a movie-like please them easy audience.

I want DC comics to make DC comics and let warner brothers look after the movies for gods sake.

I know WB owns DC comics,but they both are reaponsible for their own things.

[stealthwise]

I just point people towards Batman: Year One, Arkham Asylum: Living Hell/Face the Face (to be fair, you kind of need to read the former to get the latter), and definitely Heart of Hush (which, unfortunately, isn't in trade yet, so I tell others to get the earlier Dini stuff, especially the volume with Robin and Joker in a car).

[JumpingJupiter]

Yeah, but multiple sources in the industry frequently mention that movies do not substantially impact the monthly book but increase sales of graphic novels.

Well that's true, especially if they're going to produce cruddy monthlies.

[Kiryu]

Well that's true, especially if they're going to produce cruddy monthlies.

And again, "cruddy" is your personal opinion. Superman sales didn't rise for Superman Returns, Spider-Man sales, despite 3 movies, are on a steady decline. Notice Marvel STOPPED with the heavy movie in tie-ins after no one bought the 4 Doc Ock minis they put out when Spidey 2 came out.

[JumpingJupiter]

Well God forbid I'd express my opinion.

I say they should keep movies in mind. It's been about ten years now and the comic book movie thing is about to hit it's crescendo. It has proven to have legs, or momentum or whatever you wanna call it. This is where all the branding starts to bear fruit and trickle downward and outward. It would be pretty dumb to ignore 70 years of marketing precedent. These things don't explode overnight they grow over decades.

[Paul McEnery]

Well God forbid I'd express my opinion.

I say they should keep movies in mind. It's been about ten years now and the comic book movie thing is about to hit it's crescendo. It has proven to have legs, or momentum or whatever you wanna call it. This is where all the branding starts to bear fruit and trickle downward and outward. It would be pretty dumb to ignore 70 years of marketing precedent. These things don't explode overnight they grow over decades.

Actually, these things fizzle and go "bink!"

Comic book movies sell movies, and not comic books. The only exception to this at all is Watchmen.

[Sidepocket]

And again, "cruddy" is your personal opinion. Superman sales didn't rise for Superman Returns, Spider-Man sales, despite 3 movies, are on a steady decline. Notice Marvel STOPPED with the heavy movie in tie-ins after no one bought the 4 Doc Ock minis they put out when Spidey 2 came out.

This to me is the most bullshitty answer on the planet. Why?

Look at Watchmen. And that was just the TRAILER! @,@;

I am not saying to make a comic book tie in, I mean you should try to relate your books when the other media comes out so that way people can ease into your media format.

I mean, most people that I know wanted the "Joker" graphic novel because it was advertised as "Heath Ledger-like Joker in a Nolan world"! I am sure if it did not have that, nobody would have given a crap.

I just feel sad for the poor bastards going from that to now. The comic books industry biggest problem (with self worship and bad writing close behind) is growth. Sales have been in a slump because the same comic books fans keep buying comic books and new readers are barely coming in. What is needed is a in between, like how the Wii is for video games. -,-;

[Red_Knight]

I must say I am quite puzzled by the op's theory. IMO, R.I.P. came much closer to TDK in terms of depth, complexity and feel than most stories.

In TDK, we get a Batman who is struggling to find out what it means to be a hero and constantly faces the temptation to "cross the line".

In R.I.P., we get to watch as Batman is tormented by forces far more greater than himself, but refuses to give in and instead proves himself a true hero by literally crawling out of his grave to beat the odds.

The many references to Batman's past may be hard to get for total newcomers, but the story itself is, to me, infinitely more interesting than any "safe" story DC could have come up with to potentially cash in on the movie.

[GRANT!]

It's not like Batman RIP was the only Batman story around. There's two regular Batman series, one semi regular Batman book and ton of minis and ones shots. Most comic book stores have entire bookcases dedicated to Batman books.

Your friends really wouldn't have to look too hard to find a Batman book that would suit their tastes. I find it hard to believe they would just pick up a random issue of Batman and give up.

I feel bad for anyone looking for Iron Man comics since there's a lack of classic solo Iron Man stories that are as entertaining as the movie.

[nixon]

I'm a Dark Knight newbie and I enjoyed RIP.

I can imagine people buying All Star because of the Miller name. That said, they might be put off by the Justice League sideshow and - maybe - even Robin himself.

[JumpingJupiter]

It's not like Batman RIP was the only Batman story around.

It's the only floppy with a big huge BATMAN logo on it without 50 adjectives before it. Which is what a noob is likely to reach for.


I feel bad for anyone looking for Iron Man comics since there's a lack of classic solo Iron Man stories that are as entertaining as the movie.

I came to comics mostly due to Iron Man. And I love Invincible Iron Man. I find that tonally it's a logical extension of the film.

[GRANT!]

I'm a Dark Knight newbie and I enjoyed RIP.

I can imagine people buying All Star because of the Miller name. That said, they might be put off by the Justice League sideshow and - maybe - even Robin himself.

You can't really predict what people will or won't respond to. Especially Batman comics.

Dark Knight Returns always spikes up in sales when a Batman movie comes out. And last I recall there hasn't been a Batman movie starring a fifty something Batman.

Batman does have the advantage of being a character that is open to a variety of interpretations so your potential new reader does have a variety of storylines they can check out and are accessiable at regular bookstores and comicshops.

[Mercurialblonde]

movies have little to no effect on monthly sales. People who want to get into comics after a movie, usually go to their bookstore and buy trades. I believe DC has the sales numbers that support this.

Morrison was write to choose to write for the comic book audience, and not the movie audience.

It's one of the dumber things Marvel does, which is force their characters into situations just to line up with their movies. Back in Black was one of the stupidest examples of this.

[GRANT!]

It's the only floppy with a big huge BATMAN logo on it without 50 adjectives before it. Which is what a noob is likely to reach for.

Not really. Lately new readers are more incline to spend 14 to 20 bucks on a collection or graphic novel that tells a complete story versus 3 bucks on a 22 page chapter. Batman trade sales went up specifically Dark Knight Reutrns, Year One, Arkham Asylum and The Killing Joke.


I came to comics mostly due to Iron Man. And I love Invincible Iron Man. I find that tonally it's a logical extension of the film.

Cool for you. But Iron Man sales have been on the decline since the movie. And Iron Man trades haven't made much of a mark either.

[DarKye]

Back in Black was one of the stupidest examples of this.

Agreed. Aunt May ended up being in the hospital for months which totally killed any sense of urgency and made the deal with Mephisto even more stupid.

DC actually made the right choice this time.

[JumpingJupiter]

Not really. Lately new readers are more incline to spend 14 to 20 bucks on a collection or graphic novel that tells a complete story versus 3 bucks on a 22 page chapter. Batman trade sales went up specifically Dark Knight Reutrns, Year One, Arkham Asylum and The Killing Joke.


I meant as far as floppies are concerned.

[GRANT!]

I meant as far as floppies are concerned.

Sure but new readers tend to avoid floppies no matter how close they are to the movies tone. Like Invincible Iron Man. Sales are at 50,000 or something which doesn't strike me as a success with new readers. Seems like most of the people reading that book are regular comic fans itching for a good Iron Man book.

[davepaton]

I agree with both points -

1 yeah it's true that people interested in Batman stories are more likely to pick up a graphic novel from a mainstream book store but

2 - for those that did pick up Batman I think the average joe would be like wtf and not pick up another comic again. Most people on this forum who have been reading comics for years didn't (and still don't) really get what's happening nevermind someone who presumably doesn't have any background knowledge outside the movies. The fact that RIP is completely unrecognisable in terms of characters makes it an odd marketing choice. I'm not in anyway saying that every Batman comic has to be the same old formula - far from it I really enjoyed RIP - I'm just saying its odd that they have such a major storyline in the year of TDK that is so unrecognisable.

Finally, I think its a very strange marketing decision of DC to 'kill' off Bruce Wayne whilst the film franchise is so strong. Surely fans of the movies would need to have Bruce as Batman. (Although I'l eat my own head if Bruce Wayne isn't Batman again by the time Batman 3 comes out).

[Jake V]

I agree with both points -

1 yeah it's true that people interested in Batman stories are more likely to pick up a graphic novel from a mainstream book store but

2 - for those that did pick up Batman I think the average joe would be like wtf and not pick up another comic again. Most people on this forum who have been reading comics for years didn't (and still don't) really get what's happening nevermind someone who presumably doesn't have any background knowledge outside the movies. The fact that RIP is completely unrecognisable in terms of characters makes it an odd marketing choice. I'm not in anyway saying that every Batman comic has to be the same old formula - far from it I really enjoyed RIP - I'm just saying its odd that they have such a major storyline in the year of TDK that is so unrecognisable.

Finally, I think its a very strange marketing decision of DC to 'kill' off Bruce Wayne whilst the film franchise is so strong. Surely fans of the movies would need to have Bruce as Batman. (Although I'l eat my own head if Bruce Wayne isn't Batman again by the time Batman 3 comes out).

It's not unheard of.

They're currently making a Captain America movie, and Steve Rogers is still dead.

[GRANT!]

2 - for those that did pick up Batman I think the average joe would be like wtf and not pick up another comic again. Most people on this forum who have been reading comics for years didn't (and still don't) really get what's happening nevermind someone who presumably doesn't have any background knowledge outside the movies. The fact that RIP is completely unrecognisable in terms of characters makes it an odd marketing choice. I'm not in anyway saying that every Batman comic has to be the same old formula - far from it I really enjoyed RIP - I'm just saying its odd that they have such a major storyline in the year of TDK that is so unrecognisable.

I'm not sure how unrecognizable it is. The basic characters are still there. Bruce, Gordon, Alfred and Robin. Joker is there. It's far less confusing then Knightfall which was my introduction to Batman comics.

Finally, I think its a very strange marketing decision of DC to 'kill' off Bruce Wayne whilst the film franchise is so strong. Surely fans of the movies would need to have Bruce as Batman. (Although I'l eat my own head if Bruce Wayne isn't Batman again by the time Batman 3 comes out).

Same thing happened during Knightfall when the movies and the animated series were very popular. And Batman comics were selling really well back then (due to the speculators mostly though).

Either way Batman sales have been pretty steady since RIP started and the movie came out. It hasn't dropped from 103,000 since July. So it's been doing pretty well.

Not to mention Batman books like the Killing Joke, Long Halloween, Year One and Dark Knight Returns rarely leave the top 100 TPB lists.

[GRANT!]

Also lets not forget Nolan does his share of playing with the Batman mythos. Did we forget the outcries that Heath Ledger Joker wears makeup? Or how about Batman being wanted for murder at the end of Dark Knight?

Why should we let filmmakers take liberties with the characters and not comic creators? Ultimately both Nolan and Morrison are trying to take a new approach with the character in their respective mediums and the character ends up being stronger for it.

[Kiryu]

Also lets not forget Nolan does his share of playing with the Batman mythos. Did we forget the outcries that Heath Ledger Joker wears makeup? Or how about Batman being wanted for murder at the end of Dark Knight?

Why should we let filmmakers take liberties with the characters and not comic creators? Ultimately both Nolan and Morrison are trying to take a new approach with the character in their respective mediums and the character ends up being stronger for it.

I agree with this. The comics should not ever ever be compromised for sake of the movie. Never. Especially not to put a hold on a great story just so that the book looks more inviting to a common-as-a-Unicorn "New Reader". Editorial does this enough with company and line wide events.

The reason there can be movies is because of comics. They should stand alone and un-handicapped by the movies.

[nepenthes]

I'm also of the opinion that movies and mainline comics should be completely separate of each other. Just let them do their own thing. We all know how the majority of adaptions and tie-ins turn out.

Think of a writer you enjoy, any writer......now think what might happen if that writer was forced to write something he never really intended to write. It's no longer his very own thing, it's diluted and insincere.

TDK has the Joker tie-in. and you are already quite aware of Year One, DKR, Killing Joke etc. Anyone who cares about batman comics or their friends should be reccommending these from the start. ANY comic shop attendant with half a brain will point to these comics when a newbie comes in fresh from TDK. the fact that RIP is inaccessible to newbies is completely irrelevant. why do RIP haters keeping using that to drag it down? it's a non-issue. go back to complaining about the Silver Age or 'confusing' writing or empty onions something

.

[Arksy]

Oh get over yourselves. Anyone genuinely interested in Batman isn't just going to get a floppy from Wal-mart or whatever, pick it up, flick through it, go '$#@1 this' and forget about it. Chances are people who watched the movie and went 'i want to read batman' would go to a comic book store and ask the very nice attendant there where a good jump on point would be. Or you know, they'd do some research on the net as to where a good insertion point would be.

[JumpingJupiter]

And it's not just non-comics converts who might pick up an issue of Batman after watching TDK, it's non-Batman converts and non-DC converts. To them G-Mo's Batman might be off putting also. I don't care how much movies don't affect monthlies it's still doesn't hurt to make Batman accessible.

I still say though that the movies will affect sales of comics in the long run. This comic book movie is not just some trend that lasts a summer like the yo-yo. Comic book movies are here to stay. Maybe they won't always have the omnipresence they have now but they'll be here for several decades still. This will help comics culture. As it already has.

[Kiryu]

And it's not just non-comics converts who might pick up an issue of Batman after watching TDK, it's non-Batman converts and non-DC converts. To them G-Mo's Batman might be off putting also. I don't care how much movies don't affect monthlies it's still doesn't hurt to make Batman accessible.

I still say though that the movies will affect sales of comics in the long run. This comic book movie is not just some trend that lasts a summer like the yo-yo. Comic book movies are here to stay. Maybe they won't always have the omnipresence they have now but they'll be here for several decades still. This will help comics culture. As it already has.

And yet there was by the numbers done-in-one Detective Comics, with Batman always on the cover, available side-by-side with "Batman".

This also fails to account for people who might wander in, pick up an issue of Grant's run, and be seized with intrigue and become a fan for life. Which, hard as it may be for some to believe, has an equal chance of happening.

"Well for the tiny amount of readers who might happen to walk into a comic store, assuming they have one near them, instead of just going to Borders, if they picked up Grant's run it would ruin comics forever for them!" is simply not the case. It's a coin toss and it always will be. Just as easily as a person could be put off by RIP they could be put off by HoH.

And if making Batman accessible comes at the cost of new and interesting stories. Well, the movie folk can go back to the movies and stay there.

[Captain Jim]

I agree that it was bad timing.

And I disagree with the proposition that a hit movie doesn't impact comic sales. It's been a number of years since I've been in the comics retail business, but I was running a comic shop when Batman 89 came out. My monthly sales on the Batman book jumped from around 20 copies to around 100. I can't imagine that things have changed that much since then.

[Mercurialblonde]

The supposition that a newb who picks up RIP would be offput by it, is very presumptuous and based on nothing.

I think the way Morrison writes makes most people intrigiued if nothing else to figure out what is going on. The sales numbers support this. RIP is one of the best selling things DC has done this year. I think Final Crisis and RIP are DC's two biggest sellers. And supposedly they are the two worst books for new fans, according to all of these people.

And yet. People continue to read them.

Give Grant Morrison some credit. You may not like him, but he moves books.

[JumpingJupiter]

Saying G-Mo's Batman might turn off some people is not a slight on his writing btw. It's just that R.I.P was rather "inside".

[Mercurialblonde]

Saying G-Mo's Batman might turn off some people is not a slight on his writing btw. It's just that R.I.P was rather "inside".

Prove that it is turning people off though. You can't. That's just a guess. The sales numbers are very strong, and I believe it's even picked up numbers for the other Batman books.

It seems like everyone is buying this book, even if they don't like Grant Morrison or Batman or DC. just to debate it on the internet.

[JumpingJupiter]

Relax. I didn't say it did I said it might. It certainly turned me off.

[Kiryu]

Saying G-Mo's Batman might turn off some people is not a slight on his writing btw. It's just that R.I.P was rather "inside".

Yeah, but what isn't "inside" at DC at this point? Just about all the Big Name books are locked into the middle ongoing stories that draw heavily on the expanded mythos of the characters.

Trying to appease the theoretical "New Reader" should not supercede telling good stories, ever. Especially when attempts at making things more "accessible" fail so frequently.

[GRANT!]

So basically you're projecting your own dislike of the book onto potential new readers.

[JumpingJupiter]

Oh, relax people we're just talking.

[GRANT!]

And it's not just non-comics converts who might pick up an issue of Batman after watching TDK, it's non-Batman converts and non-DC converts. To them G-Mo's Batman might be off putting also. I don't care how much movies don't affect monthlies it's still doesn't hurt to make Batman accessible.

How isn't it accessible? I'm no Silver Age expert and I can follow what's going on. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what this stuff means. Everything you need to know is in the story Morrison is telling.

I still say though that the movies will affect sales of comics in the long run. This comic book movie is not just some trend that lasts a summer like the yo-yo. Comic book movies are here to stay. Maybe they won't always have the omnipresence they have now but they'll be here for several decades still. This will help comics culture. As it already has.

Yes but eventually these comic book movies are going to need new ideas to stay around. Christopher Nolan isn't going to do Batman 10 or 11. They are going to have to look for different takes on the character in order for him to survive in the movies.

[JumpingJupiter]

How isn't it accessible? I'm no Silver Age expert and I can follow what's going on. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what this stuff means. Everything you need to know is in the story Morrison is telling.


So basically you're projecting your own like of the book onto potential new readers. ;)

[Bazooka Jones]

I own half a dozen trades and maybe 100 singles from the last fifteen or so years, scattered across a few different batman titles. I'm not exactly a huge Batman fan, but I do like Batman and consider myself conversant with the themes and characters of his universe. I'm a casual fan. I started reading this run at 670 or so and just stuck with what I immediately perceived to be a dry, plodding and frankly boring story aimed primarily at people who care a lot more about Batman than I do. Maybe it was because of the movie, or because of the book's marketing, but I stuck around for RIP. Well. I learned my lesson. People seem to enjoy the story, and that's great, as is the commercial success of the arc. It's just not for me. I'll let Bats go back to sleep in my comic book toybox and check out the character again in a couple years.

[JumpingJupiter]

I own half a dozen trades and maybe 100 singles from the last fifteen or so years, scattered across a few different batman titles. I'm not exactly a huge Batman fan, but I do like Batman and consider myself conversant with the themes and characters of his universe. I'm a casual fan. I started reading this run at 670 or so and just stuck with what I immediately perceived to be a dry, plodding and frankly boring story aimed primarily at people who care a lot more about Batman than I do. Maybe it was because of the movie, or because of the book's marketing, but I stuck around for RIP. Well. I learned my lesson. People seem to enjoy the story, and that's great, as is the commercial success of the arc. It's just not for me. I'll let Bats go back to sleep in my comic book toybox and check out the character again in a couple years.

Roughly what I feel.

[philly]

Its not a mater of being assessable, its a matter of telling a good story that has you waiting around for the next issue and for me, Batman RIP did just that. Trying to water down a character to make him assessable to new readers by trying to copy a film does not do anything for the book or the storytelling as a whole. If you want to see how bad it fails, look no further than Spiderman.

[PastePotPete]

Eccch! I hate it when the comic book is forced to tie in with the movie. Loved The Dark Knight but I would have been irritated if the Batman comics had tried to emulate it. Azzarello's Joker graphic novel is a perfect example of how to suck everything that is great out of a character in order to ape a style set by a filmmaker.

Look, DC does this all the time. When Superman Returns came out, Superman was returning from not having powers. They even changed the costume in the comics to match the costume in the movie. The costume in the comics changed so that Superman's S-shield was 3-D like in the movie. Explain to me how ridiculous minor changes like this help sales of the comic book?

A kid sees Superman Returns, loves it (unlikely, I know), then decides to go to his LCS to buy some Superman comics. If he buys a Superman comic where Superman's costume does not have a 3-D S-shield like in the movie is he going to go "What the hell is this? This isn't Superman!" and throw the comic away? No! Because the 3-D S-shield on the costume is a minor stylistic choice decided on by the filmmaker. It has nothing to do with the core appeal of Superman.

Joker was featured in RIP and it was a great story that cut to the core of Batman. The fun of going to the comics after enjoying the movie is realizing how much more deep and bizarre the world inside the comics is. Not getting fed the exact same thing Nolan fed you. How boring.

[Mat001]

I agree that it was bad timing.

And I disagree with the proposition that a hit movie doesn't impact comic sales. It's been a number of years since I've been in the comics retail business, but I was running a comic shop when Batman 89 came out. My monthly sales on the Batman book jumped from around 20 copies to around 100. I can't imagine that things have changed that much since then.

They have. The two Burton films was the last time DC saw a spike in sales. After that, the speculator boom ended and it's been all downhill for all companies. Denny O'Neil confirmed that sales dropped off after the 89 film left theaters and that's part of the reason why the Knight Trilogy was done after the sequel was released. To try and keep interest up as well as show fans what would happen if Batman were replaced with someone like Wolverine and the Punisher.

[davepaton]

It's not unheard of.

They're currently making a Captain America movie, and Steve Rogers is still dead.

Yeah but this is the other way around I doubt he will still be dead after the movie comes out.

[davepaton]

I'm not sure how unrecognizable it is. The basic characters are still there. Bruce, Gordon, Alfred and Robin. Joker is there. It's far less confusing then Knightfall which was my introduction to Batman comics.


Same thing happened during Knightfall when the movies and the animated series were very popular. And Batman comics were selling really well back then (due to the speculators mostly though).

Either way Batman sales have been pretty steady since RIP started and the movie came out. It hasn't dropped from 103,000 since July. So it's been doing pretty well.

Not to mention Batman books like the Killing Joke, Long Halloween, Year One and Dark Knight Returns rarely leave the top 100 TPB lists.


Yeah but Batman was wearing a purple suit and going crazy and the rest of the cast only had cameo appearances. I'm not in anyway saying that the comics should cater to the movies and I liked RIP I'm just saying that it was a strange decision on DC's part to have the so-called biggest Batman story in a few years to have a completely unknown villain and an unconventional plot.

Didn't knighfall come out a year after Batman Returns? Though I admit it would be difficult to get into that half way through it.

[GRANT!]

Yeah but Batman was wearing a purple suit and going crazy and the rest of the cast only had cameo appearances.

He has the purple costume for two issues (unless you count that last page in part 3). And while the story focuses on Bruce I think Robin, Alfred and Comissioner Gordon get their moments to shine. But regardless I don't see what's so hard to follow if you know just the basics of Batman.

I'm not in anyway saying that the comics should cater to the movies and I liked RIP I'm just saying that it was a strange decision on DC's part to have the so-called biggest Batman story in a few years to have a completely unknown villain and an unconventional plot.

The villan wasn't completely unknown. If he is who says he is. Not to mention the Joker played a big role.

[Captain Jim]

Denny O'Neil confirmed that sales dropped off after the 89 film left theaters and that's part of the reason why the Knight Trilogy was done after the sequel was released. To try and keep interest up as well as show fans what would happen if Batman were replaced with someone like Wolverine and the Punisher.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that the sales gain was permanent; of course it was short-term. But I would argue that almost every sales increase is short-term. That's why we have one gimmick followed by another.

[JumpingJupiter]

I certainly didn't mean to imply that the sales gain was permanent; of course it was short-term. But I would argue that almost every sales increase is short-term. That's why we have one gimmick followed by another.

Good point.

[GRANT!]

Eccch! I hate it when the comic book is forced to tie in with the movie. Loved The Dark Knight but I would have been irritated if the Batman comics had tried to emulate it. Azzarello's Joker graphic novel is a perfect example of how to suck everything that is great out of a character in order to ape a style set by a filmmaker.

Look, DC does this all the time. When Superman Returns came out, Superman was returning from not having powers. They even changed the costume in the comics to match the costume in the movie. The costume in the comics changed so that Superman's S-shield was 3-D like in the movie. Explain to me how ridiculous minor changes like this help sales of the comic book?

A kid sees Superman Returns, loves it (unlikely, I know), then decides to go to his LCS to buy some Superman comics. If he buys a Superman comic where Superman's costume does not have a 3-D S-shield like in the movie is he going to go "What the hell is this? This isn't Superman!" and throw the comic away? No! Because the 3-D S-shield on the costume is a minor stylistic choice decided on by the filmmaker. It has nothing to do with the core appeal of Superman.

Joker was featured in RIP and it was a great story that cut to the core of Batman. The fun of going to the comics after enjoying the movie is realizing how much more deep and bizarre the world inside the comics is. Not getting fed the exact same thing Nolan fed you. How boring.

I'm getting a little less enamored with the movies lately despite the fact there were some good ones this year (Dark Knight, Iron Man, Hellboy). There's also this ongoing trend where more comic fans want to talk about the movies then the comics. Which is kind of unfortunate because I'm usually finding the comics more interesting. I appreciate that the Batman comic can go to places the movie can't. Movies are limited by budgets and technology. Comics are only limited by imagination and talent. More creators need to exploit that.

[Ghostman]

Oh, relax people we're just talking.

but thats exactly what this thread is: another reason to bash RIP, this time using some BS new reader excuse....its sad really....crap like this only makes me dislike dini's batman run...as i realize that most readers just want more of the same, middle of the road, conservative storytelling that is ultimately boring.

[JumpingJupiter]

I think you're reading too much into it. Besides, it's the internet. If this is a bashing thread, it won't have been the first. Get used to it.

[Ghostman]

I think you're reading too much into it. Besides, it's the internet. If this is a bashing thread, it won't have been the first. Get used to it.


There is no if...it is a bashing thread, just dressed up...there is no reading into it, and i bet if asked most of the people in this thread, they'll admit to not liking RIP on some level. Get used to that

[JumpingJupiter]

You're hilarious man!

[Ghostman]

You're hilarious man!

Ok? :rolleyes:

Anyway, I dont see how RIP, or any other comic arc should have to cater to new readers....arent comics usually doing that anyway? Even if a new reader jumps into RIP, its no more confusing then heart of hush...in fact, it wouldnt surprise me if some new readers got more out of RIP then some fans have

[Captain Jim]

There is no if...it is a bashing thread

I don't think that's fair. Morrison tends to have a polarizing effect on people; they either love his stuff or hate it. And we've seen plenty of both kinds of posts on this forum.

[Ghostman]

I don't think that's fair. Morrison tends to have a polarizing effect on people; they either love his stuff or hate it. And we've seen plenty of both kinds of posts on this forum.

Yes, but i dont see morrison praisers posting threads under some pretense like "Intellectuals will hate paul dini's oversimplistic run of tec"

[JumpingJupiter]

Yes, but i dont see morrison praisers posting threads under some pretense like "Intellectuals will hate paul dini's oversimplistic run of tec"

However, It's not uncommon for G-Mo fans to obliquely imply roughly the same.

[Sidepocket]

Prove that it is turning people off though. You can't. That's just a guess. The sales numbers are very strong, and I believe it's even picked up numbers for the other Batman books.

It seems like everyone is buying this book, even if they don't like Grant Morrison or Batman or DC. just to debate it on the internet.

It works the same way when they said they were going to kill Superman.

ITS THE "DEATH" OF A MAJOR CHARACTER, OF COURSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO PICK THIS UP EVEN IF IT WAS CRAP!

Also, who ever said trying to match one the best Batman stories never told in the comics is "watering it down"? Why? Just because there is no obscure Silver Age reference that even Wikipedia has no idea about?

Look, I never said I hated RIP. I think it is ok. The thing I am arguing is bad timing. Imagine if Batman '89 came out when Batman '60's was at it's peak. That is the disconnect going on here in terms of customer satisfaction for a good chunk of people.

Also, why all the hate on the Joker book? Because it is popular? Because by peer review it will become second place to the Killing Joke and as some fanboy that bother's you?

At least that had....wait for it...perfect timing. :rolleyes:

[nepenthes]

I agree that it was bad timing.

And I disagree with the proposition that a hit movie doesn't impact comic sales. It's been a number of years since I've been in the comics retail business, but I was running a comic shop when Batman 89 came out. My monthly sales on the Batman book jumped from around 20 copies to around 100. I can't imagine that things have changed that much since then.

you don;t think the market in trades is just a little different nowadays?

the argument is that the real potential to capitalize on movies is in trades, not floppies. and this has been put forward by guys at DC themselves. it's the crux of this whole issue.

[Death by Mime]

Kind of off topic, but I think RIP's biggest failure was promising the most shocking reveal in 70 years, and then not having a reveal. At all.

Either that, or titling it 'Batman R.I.P.' in the first place and hyping it as the 'death' of Batman when the ending is about how Batman is totally immortal.

One or the other, I can't decide which.

[Lester C.]

RIP biggest failure was that a lot of people didn’t understand it. I’m not saying it was good or bad as I haven’t read it yet, but a lot of people had no clue what was going on and that is a failure. I don’t know if it was Grant’s failure or not but something went wrong if you have a lot of people complaining that they can’t follow the story.

[Lew Moxon]

Kind of off topic, but I think RIP's biggest failure was promising the most shocking reveal in 70 years, and then not having a reveal. At all.

Either that, or titling it 'Batman R.I.P.' in the first place and hyping it as the 'death' of Batman when the ending is about how Batman is totally immortal.

One or the other, I can't decide which.


Yeah. the most shocking thing in 70 years was an outright falsehood.

The Devil is a strange villain, and a bit too supernatural for my tastes. But it might work within the work itself.

That said, it is out of left field, but not the most shocking event in 70 years.

if Hurt really was Dr. Thomas Wayne That'd count.

[Bradley]

I don’t know if it was Grant’s failure or not but something went wrong if you have a lot of people complaining that they can’t follow the story.

Sometimes, though, the reader's inability to follow the story is the reader's fault, not the author's. The fact that some people don't "get" David Lynch's movies, or James Joyce's fiction, or Wallace Stevens's poetry doesn't make the work bad; it just means that some in the audience haven't put the intellectual work into it. To be honest, I still have questions about Morrison's Batman, but re-reading his entire run (as I'm doing right now) is such a pleasurable activity, I find it rewarding to put this much effort into a comic.

(I've also really been enjoying the comments on these boards these past few days. Reading people's interpretations of and questions about the story have me visiting CBR on a daily basis again-- something I haven't done in a long time).

[davepaton]

Azzarello's Joker graphic novel is a perfect example of how to suck everything that is great out of a character in order to ape a style set by a filmmaker.

How many times do people have to say that Joker was in no way influenced by TDK and if anything it was the other way around!

[Captain Jim]

you don;t think the market in trades is just a little different nowadays?

the argument is that the real potential to capitalize on movies is in trades, not floppies. and this has been put forward by guys at DC themselves. it's the crux of this whole issue.

I don't think it's either/or. In bookstores like Borders or Barnes & Noble, of course it's going to be trades. In comic shops, even though trade sales are up, most people still buy the monthlies.

When I said my Batman sales jumped from 20 copies to 100, I didn't mean to imply that the majority of them were sold to people off the street. I'm sure the majority were picked up by existing comic fans, perhaps people who never bought anything but X-books previously. But it was still a major increase in sales.

[Mia]

RIP biggest failure was that a lot of people didn’t understand it. I’m not saying it was good or bad as I haven’t read it yet, but a lot of people had no clue what was going on and that is a failure. I don’t know if it was Grant’s failure or not but something went wrong if you have a lot of people complaining that they can’t follow the story.

Who are these 'lot of people' you are refering to? The sales for Batman #680 in October, were 103, 941 units.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/13751.html

That tells me that the books is a success not a failure.

[JumpingJupiter]

That tells me that the books is a success not a failure.

From a short term business point of view yes.

[Lester C.]

Who are these 'lot of people' you are refering to? The sales for Batman #680 in October, were 103, 941 units.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/13751.html

That tells me that the books is a success not a failure.

The many people who have posted on this forum.

I don't believe sales numbers should be used to measure a quality of a book but both this and Final Crisis are under preforming.

[the goddamn batman]

How many times do people have to say that Joker was in no way influenced by TDK and if anything it was the other way around!

Didn't Lee do some concept work on TDK?

From a short term business point of view yes.

Welcome to comics.

[Mia]

The many people who have posted on this forum.
.

Whose numbers are far less than the people buying it. There's a reason why companies ignore fans on message boards.


I don't believe sales numbers should be used to measure a quality of a book but both this and Final Crisis are under preforming.

Then perhaps you can advise me as to what were the targeted sales numbers supposed to be?

[JumpingJupiter]

Long term branding strategies win out.

[earl]

The Watchmen trailer in front of the movie certainly sold a bunch of trade paperbacks.

I'd think now that for many people that are curious about comics, they are getting a trade at a Barnes and Noble more than pulling an issue of Batman. Even in a big chain bookstore, many of them don't carry huge numbers of comics. You could find an issue of Batman or Detective, but there is more likely a corner table with a bunch of trades being pushed.

Captain Jim, wouldn't you say the comic buying audience is way different now than in 1989? At least going from my local shop, I'd say a good portion of the current fans that were buying new in 89 still buying now, probably more than some younger teenagers today. It seems the average age of the audience at the shop I go to is way older than it used to be.

The total audience for comics seems much smaller, but there are a bazillion more titles being published, which to me seems odd. It seems to me a die-hard faction of thousands, who buys comics by the bushel is pretty much holding the industry together.

I would bet that the regular audience for a Grant Morrison comic, whatever the stripe (Batman, All Star Superman etc) is probably larger than the casual reader who might pickup a random issue of Detective after seeing a Batman movie. While there are millions of people that will see that movie, the odds that they are interested in the comic and will find a regular copy of Batman or Detective to purchase are a bit slim, as outside of comic shops, there just isn't near as many places to buy a comic book as there used to be. (This is true of many things in the periodical business, comic books are not an exception or anything.)

[PastePotPete]

How many times do people have to say that Joker was in no way influenced by TDK and if anything it was the other way around!

Sure, but DC knew the movie was coming out, they knew Azzarello usually writes characters in a very down-to-earth (say, cinematic?) style, they knew Bermejo does photorealistic visuals, so they put the team together to make the book that would be as close to the new film as they could get.

On the face of it, it doesn't sound like a bad plan. A great OGN could have come out of it. But it went the way these things often go. When the marketing plan overpowers the story - when comics try to be movies - the end product is usually poor. Joker sucked.

Look, any TDK fan who would have a problem with some of the elements in Batman RIP is not going to be a long-term comics fan anyway. Tons of comics have things like Zurr-en-arh and Batmite in them all the time. That's the appeal of comics, not the problem with them. Morrison gets that.

[GRANT!]

From a short term business point of view yes.

Those numbers held up throughout the entire storyline with the exception of Part 2 (which went to second printing). That's pretty rare.

[GRANT!]

Sometimes, though, the reader's inability to follow the story is the reader's fault, not the author's. The fact that some people don't "get" David Lynch's movies, or James Joyce's fiction, or Wallace Stevens's poetry doesn't make the work bad; it just means that some in the audience haven't put the intellectual work into it. To be honest, I still have questions about Morrison's Batman, but re-reading his entire run (as I'm doing right now) is such a pleasurable activity, I find it rewarding to put this much effort into a comic.

(I've also really been enjoying the comments on these boards these past few days. Reading people's interpretations of and questions about the story have me visiting CBR on a daily basis again-- something I haven't done in a long time).

Not to mention many people complaining about it have been reading it on the newstands or just the wikipedia entry. Not really the best way to appreciate any comic book.

This kind of reminds me of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Black Dossier last year which was another book that was more satisfying (at least to me) where you had to do a lot of the work yourself. I appreciate it when an author trusts me to figure things out for myself versus rather then just explaining everything outright to me. Of course that got a mixed reaction.

Good to have you back. I remember you from a few years back.

[Jack Tango]

This to me is the most bullshitty answer on the planet. Why?

Look at Watchmen. And that was just the TRAILER!

Yeah, you're way off base.

Watchmen is a totally different beast; the rest of the movies rely on their built-in audience, this one drew in new people to buy a trade paperback. Notice how monthly comics didn't really go up that much? Yeah, so, they're buying a TPB. Big whoop.

[JumpingJupiter]

Notice how monthly comics didn't really go up that much?

Not yet. No. These things build. It's not just sales of books we need to look at but the overall state of comics culture. And it is becoming increasingly prominent. If 70 years of marketing and branding history tells us anything it's that it will eventually and gradually translate into sales.

[HopeLantern]

RIP biggest failure was that a lot of people didn’t understand it. I’m not saying it was good or bad as I haven’t read it yet, but a lot of people had no clue what was going on and that is a failure. I don’t know if it was Grant’s failure or not but something went wrong if you have a lot of people complaining that they can’t follow the story.

I absolutely agree. I just found out yesterday, the seeds for R.I.P. were planted way back in "52 #30", and maybe before even then. I don't know if it's Grant's failure or not... but let's take the Bat-Radia and the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh (spelling?) as an example. If not for the internet and people's blogs, no one would even know that this traces all the way back to Batman #113. Let's be real here... if you didn't know that, then a good 1/3 of the story makes no sense right from the beginning. I dig Grant's references to the past, but the failure is that not everyone is familiar with that past. If you're using that to make a story, you need to be sure your audience knows that and you need to direct them. I think he was too carefree and felt like "Oh it doesn't matter... they'll just look it up online. Ain't the internet great?" As literature, that's a failure on DC's part for letting that happen.

[Mia]

Those numbers held up throughout the entire storyline with the exception of Part 2 (which went to second printing). That's pretty rare.

I took the liberty of digging up the most available sales numbers last night. Here they are:


BATMAN #679 RIP* $2.99 DC 103,588
BATMAN #678 RIP* July $2.99 DC 103,213
BATMAN #677 RIP* $ 2.99 DC 96,116
BATMAN #676 RIP* $2.99 DC 105,039
BATMAN #675 $2.99 DC 71,138
BATMAN #674 $2.99 DC 68,208
BATMAN #673 $2.99 DC 69,234



They actually jumped almost 30K since RIP was launched.

[zomg]

. I don't know if it's Grant's failure or not... but let's take the Bat-Radia and the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh (spelling?) as an example. If not for the internet and people's blogs, no one would even know that this traces all the way back to Batman #113. Let's be real here... if you didn't know that, then a good 1/3 of the story makes no sense right from the beginning.
1/3? This is just a load of bull.
It's explained in the issue (679) what Batman Zur-En-Arrh is (a back up identity) and where it comes from (Batman going to an alien planet where he's Superman which was a hallucination). Now a new reader wouldn't know that Zur-En-Arrh originally comes from some crappy silver age Batman story but not knowing that doesn't ruin 1/3 of the entire story in fact it doesn't ruin the story at all.

[Captain Jim]

Captain Jim, wouldn't you say the comic buying audience is way different now than in 1989? At least going from my local shop, I'd say a good portion of the current fans that were buying new in 89 still buying now, probably more than some younger teenagers today. It seems the average age of the audience at the shop I go to is way older than it used to be.

The total audience for comics seems much smaller, but there are a bazillion more titles being published, which to me seems odd. It seems to me a die-hard faction of thousands, who buys comics by the bushel is pretty much holding the industry together.


I'm not sure I understand your question. But I still frequent the LCS I used to manage, so I'll ask the current manager for his perspective on all this.

[Captain Jim]

1/3? This is just a load of bull.
It's explained in the issue (679) what Batman Zur-En-Arrh is (a back up identity) and where it comes from (Batman going to an alien planet where he's Superman which was a hallucination). Now a new reader wouldn't know that Zur-En-Arrh originally comes from some crappy silver age Batman story but not knowing that doesn't ruin 1/3 of the entire story in fact it doesn't ruin the story at all.

He didn't say it ruined it. He said that portion of the story wouldn't make sense. And I agree.

[Karl O'Neill]

Re-reading Morrison's entire run these last few days, I agree with some of the other posters here, it's very rewarding and freaky at the same time that one human being cann put this many layers into his work which in turn makes the reading about up his mind and get the *little grey cells* working overtime.

I truely hope grant morrison has more batman work to write.

I can't go back to the days of generic war games/crime/drums/no mans land/officer down garbage. i really can't.

[davepaton]

Didn't Lee do some concept work on TDK?

Not that I'm aware. Concept art from Joker was first shown on Batman-on-film but it wasn't related to TDK in anyway. A couple months later the Heath chelsea grin picture was released.

[davepaton]

Sure, but DC knew the movie was coming out, they knew Azzarello usually writes characters in a very down-to-earth (say, cinematic?) style, they knew Bermejo does photorealistic visuals, so they put the team together to make the book that would be as close to the new film as they could get.

On the face of it, it doesn't sound like a bad plan. A great OGN could have come out of it. But it went the way these things often go. When the marketing plan overpowers the story - when comics try to be movies - the end product is usually poor. Joker sucked.

Look, any TDK fan who would have a problem with some of the elements in Batman RIP is not going to be a long-term comics fan anyway. Tons of comics have things like Zurr-en-arh and Batmite in them all the time. That's the appeal of comics, not the problem with them. Morrison gets that.

But what was originally said was that comics changed to incorporate elements of the film and in particular the Joker in Joker What you said might be true but it doesn't provide an explanation for the original statement. First of all it's impossible to say the comic changed to match the film's interpretation of a character when the comic was commissioned before the film. Second, this is a stand alone, out of continuity book and therefore basically irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. And third, apart from the chelsea grin I don't think Joker and Heath's Joker are similar.

Joker was brilliant btw :biggrin:

[PastePotPete]

But what was originally said was that comics changed to incorporate elements of the film and in particular the Joker in Joker

Yeah. And they did. Unless you think that one day in, say, 2001, Lee Bermejo was thinking to himself "Man, if I ever get approached by DC to illustrate a graphic novel about the Joker I'm going to give him prominent mouth scars and slightly longer wavey hair. And make him look younger. Like Heath Ledger."

And then in 2007 he was approached by DC to illustrate Joker. And then in 2008 he saw The Dark Knight and was like "What the?!? What a coincidence!"

This is what you think happened?

What you said might be true but it doesn't provide an explanation for the original statement. First of all it's impossible to say the comic changed to match the film's interpretation of a character when the comic was commissioned before the film.

It's not impossible. DC knew about some elements of the film (having not yet seen it) and asked the writer and artist to incorporate them into the graphic novel, altering many aspects of the characters and setting with the end result of making them boring and stupid.


Second, this is a stand alone, out of continuity book and therefore basically irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion.

I think it's very relevant in that we're discussing how syncing a film property with a comic book property improves the comic book property. I don't think it does.

And third, apart from the chelsea grin I don't think Joker and Heath's Joker are similar.

You're right. Ledger's Joker in TDK was awesome. His one-dimensional copycat in Joker was extremely uninteresting.

Joker was brilliant btw :biggrin:

Your opinion of course. The art was certainly very well done. But if you think that was a good Joker story you must not have read any of the good ones.

[Maestro]

DC always fails at making good tie-ins. Marvel had the right idea with a brand new Iron Man series released on the weekend of the film's premiere. releasing The Joker HC in time for TDK would have made the perfect tie-in.

It's sad. I know another comic book shop owner who had the same problems. Luckily Batman has a lot of good trades to his name.

[The Batman]

Well, having it out now makes it a good Christmas gift. Something to go along with The Dark Knight DVD everybody is going to be asking Santa for.

[Gerald Keefer]

I can't go back to the days of generic war games/crime/drums/no mans land/officer down garbage. i really can't.

Well said.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I can't go back to the days of generic war games/crime/drums/no mans land/officer down garbage. i really can't.

No Man's Land and Officer Down don't deserve to be lumped in with that War Games crap.

Just because it's not Morrison doesn't automatically make it garbage.

[Mat001]

Yeah. And they did. Unless you think that one day in, say, 2001, Lee Bermejo was thinking to himself "Man, if I ever get approached by DC to illustrate a graphic novel about the Joker I'm going to give him prominent mouth scars and slightly longer wavey hair. And make him look younger. Like Heath Ledger."

And then in 2007 he was approached by DC to illustrate Joker. And then in 2008 he saw The Dark Knight and was like "What the?!? What a coincidence!"

This is what you think happened?

It's not like that doesn't happen. Superman, for instance, had a story involving Lois and Clark adopting a kid which was in play before "Superman Returns" came out and it's ending was known to everyone.

I don't think it was 2001, but more like 2007 and before seeing the first pics of "The Dark Knight". Certain artists tend to draw however they like, unless told to do otherwise.

It's not impossible. DC knew about some elements of the film (having not yet seen it) and asked the writer and artist to incorporate them into the graphic novel, altering many aspects of the characters and setting with the end result of making them boring and stupid.

Or maybe perhaps Bermjo (sp) just wanted to draw the Joker that way, considering that in "Lovers & Madman", the Joker has scars on his face from a Batarang, I think it was.

DC always fails at making good tie-ins. Marvel had the right idea with a brand new Iron Man series released on the weekend of the film's premiere. releasing The Joker HC in time for TDK would have made the perfect tie-in.

DC had in the past made tie-ins with Batman. In addition to reprinting old trades, they put out a multitude of stories. "Penguin Triumphant", "Catwoman Defiant", "Run Riddler Run", "Two-Face: Crime & Punishment", "The Riddle Factory", "Bane", "Mr. Freeze", "Batgirl" and "Poison Ivy" were all released in the 90's when a new film came out. Legends Of The Dark Knight came out a year after the 89 film. Shadow Of The Bat and The Batman Chronicles launched when the second and third films came out. "Vengeance Of Bane" and "Sword Of Azreal" came out after the film did. Robin guest starred in Superman. Three "Batman Vs Predator" mini-series came out before or after a new Batman film did, same with two of the four Batman and Judge Dredd series. "Ra's Al Ghul: Year One" and "Scarecrow: Year One" came out when "Batman Begins" came out. Four one-shots for Superman that served as a prequel to "Superman Returns", along with reprints of older stories. Supergirl, Steel and Swamp Thing are the only other films to have come out under the DC banner. Hellblazer/Constatine being the only remaining one and it didn't get a big bump. None of them really did. Kara died the following year, John Henry's title was canceled and the other two just kept trucking along.

[zomg]

He didn't say it ruined it. He said that portion of the story wouldn't make sense. And I agree.Sadly enough for you, my argument still stands and, again, sadly enough for you, your arguments (or lack off) isn't convincing at all. Why doesn't it make any sense?

[Captain Jim]

I'm not sure I understand your question. But I still frequent the LCS I used to manage, so I'll ask the current manager for his perspective on all this.

I did so today. He said that when Dark Knight was released, there was a definite increase in Batman sales, though most of it was in trades. This he attributed to the fact that the ongoing titles were so hard to get into--which supports the OP's argument.

[Mat001]

No one has disputed that trades don't see an increase. It's the monthly that doesn't go up and hasn't since 1989. To be fair, it's the same over at Marvel. And to say that it is too difficult to jump into, that's a bunch of bull. Comics are no more complex now than in 1989. Batman was in the middle of introducing a new Robin, after the last one got blown to hell, while dealing with his eyesight in the other book. Today you've got Wikipedia and message boards.

[carabas]

I did so today. He said that when Dark Knight was released, there was a definite increase in Batman sales, though most of it was in trades. This he attributed to the fact that the ongoing titles were so hard to get into--which supports the OP's argument.Have you asked him about sales boosts to other books due to movies coming out? Because I can't imagine Hulk, X-Men, Spider-Man, Superman... being any easier to get into Batman, especially Detective.

It seems unfair to slam Batman R.I.P. for not doing something that practicaly no other book (save perhaps Invincible Iron Man) does.

[GRANT!]

Have you asked him about sales boosts to other books due to movies coming out? Because I can't imagine Hulk, X-Men, Spider-Man, Superman... being any easier to get into Batman, especially Detective.

It seems unfair to slam Batman R.I.P. for not doing something that practicaly no other book (save perhaps Invincible Iron Man) does.

Invincible Iron Man has been dropping in sales. They are also tying it into the Dark Reign storyline.

[JumpingJupiter]

Variant covers affected the sales of Invincible IM I'm sure.

[davepaton]

Yeah. And they did. Unless you think that one day in, say, 2001, Lee Bermejo was thinking to himself "Man, if I ever get approached by DC to illustrate a graphic novel about the Joker I'm going to give him prominent mouth scars and slightly longer wavey hair. And make him look younger. Like Heath Ledger."

And then in 2007 he was approached by DC to illustrate Joker. And then in 2008 he saw The Dark Knight and was like "What the?!? What a coincidence!"

This is what you think happened?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but some things are a question of fact - either right or wrong. In this case the overwhelming evidence suggests that you are wrong. Besides the concept art of Joker being released well in advance of any TDK images of heath, Bermejo constantly saying that his project was in the works well before he had knowledge of Nolan's Joker perhaps the most revealing evidence is that there is a panel in Lex Luthor Man of Steel that shows the Joker with a scarred grin. This was published in 2005.

Whilst, the similarities between the 2 are probably coincidence I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility that Nolan was influenced by Bermejo's vision - i.e. the movie was influenced directly by the comic.

Regarding the quality of Joker we will just have to agree to disagree.