The final fate of Batman/Bruce Wayne (stray thoughts)

[A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.]

You can say what you want about RIP, but it seems to have brought out the best in the fan community. I can't remember ever reading discussions on message boards this good. Anyway, I guess most people feel like Batman #681 left a few plot lines hanging, and here's a couple of thoughts on that:

1.) We've been told Batman's final fate will be revealed in Final Crisis. In Final Crisis: Requiem, we clearly see that Bruce Wayne is still around. If I remember correctly, Morrison has also stated that the Batman in FC is indeed Bruce. So what happens between RIP and FC#1? Seems strangely inelegant, somehow, especially since Bruce Wayne is shown in typical mansion-owner fashion in FC: Requiem.

2.) Whereas many people seem to have concluded that the Black Glove is the Devil, that has not yet been spelt out. I mean, what has been said has not conclusively pointed to a Satan-type figure. Instead, we've been given vague, round-about descriptions that may very well fit the general concept of "The" Devil, but which doesn't really point to the actual horn-and-hooves, solid biblical thing. What we have actually been told has more to do with the lack of good, the dark part of the subuniverse where even the light of the Godhead cannot reach. I'm not arguing that the Black Glove is not something or someone devil-ish, but I do not think that it necessarily has all the features of the christianized devil. So what I'm thinking (I've still not given this up) is that this has something to do with Darkseid. Who has red glowing eyes? Who is indeed a "dark master"? Who has fallen backwards through time? Whose minions go about talking about the necessity of corrupting noble spirits? Who would be a more ideal vessel for Darkseid than Batman? Morrison has a tendency to string his stories together, and he also seems intent on setting up Darkseid as some sort of primal force of evil, rather than just a meanspirited rock-like ruler of a planet. Would it be a detriment to the Batman mythos if it was revealed that Darkseid was involved from the start? (Personally, I'd say yes).

3.) Who will be Batman? At the outset of his run Morrison talked a good deal about the need to return Batman to his somewhat less gritty, pre-Dark Knight Returns-roots. That would rather obviously rule out Jason Todd, and somehow, Morrison has either changed his mind, or editorial has pulled the breaks on this plan. What's going on there? Am I reading too much into those earlier interviews?
(I've said this again and again now, but I'd absolutely love to see a fresh and more lighthearted Bat-book by Morrison and Alan Davis).

4.) Why does everyone hate Damien? I mean, really? Yeah, he's a brat and a bit on the homicidal side, but he's fun. The only thing that really bothers me is the actual issue of fatherhood. That was never resolved, even though Robin was rather concerned with it a couple of issues back. I guess I like most people would prefer if Damien was actually not Bruce's son, but I'd definitely like him to stick around for a bit.

I know this makes no sense as a post, but I guess that's sort of what the end to RIP leaves us with.

[mofo]

1) the next two issues of batman is supposed to bridge the gap between RIP and FC...

2) I'm not sold on the Devil thing... And throwing Darkseid in there would be an interesting development... Depends heavily on how GM spins the tale though

3) Almost definitely going to be Nightwing... This ties into GM's talk about how he wnat to return Batman to his roots since Nightwing is a relatively light hearted character

4) I like Damien... :biggrin:

[lepeos]

Maybe it's Dick disguised as Bruce during FC? What with whats already going on they probably didn't want to alarm the superhero community further?

A longshot I know...

[Spiffy]

4.) Why does everyone hate Damien? I mean, really? Yeah, he's a brat and a bit on the homicidal side, but he's fun.

Aside from any knee-jerk, "Batman shouldn't have a son" reactions, I can't think of a few.

A.) (As you say) Damien is written as a spoiled brat. While characters like that can work as villains, its a much harder sell (for readers to bear, I mean) if they are heroes, and I think hardest of all if they are "on the fence" like we are supposed to believe Damien is.

If a character goes stomping around saying "I am better than you, peasant!" all of the time, then there are really only two possible takes on that. If they are scary, threatening characters, then you have Victor Von Doom. If they are NOT scary, threatening characters, however, then all you can really do with them is make them comic relief. So if Damien is the later, that is SO not the direction most people want the Batman franchise to go in.

B.) He's got no complexity. If there are other layers under the brat, the DC writers certainly haven't been able to bring it forth. And uncomplicated characters don't work as regulars.

C.) Here's a thought a lot of people probably have: Does the book really need ANOTHER short, black haired kid? If Damien was truly a replacement Robin, that might make sense, but as an addition, its just added to the confusion.

Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are a lot more.

[dreyga2000]

1.) Bad Coordination??? That's what I'm assuming but let's see how this plays out...
2.) I think that's the idea behind it. It's not suppose be able be spelt out or explained or fit perfectly...Because it's an encounter with the supernatural something that's not suppose to confrom to logic...

"All the things we'd seen that couldn't fit that couldn't be explained went into that Black Case Book."

- Bruce Wayne from Batman 665

You must either take a leap of faith and consider in the impossible or grasp toward the probable... the believer or the skeptic which one are you?

3)Hopefully nobody... my dearest wish is that they vacate the mantle in Bruce's honor... I know it won't happen but I want Tim and dick to keep their identities...
4) I don't hate...much...

[PastePotPete]

1.) We've been told Batman's final fate will be revealed in Final Crisis. In Final Crisis: Requiem, we clearly see that Bruce Wayne is still around. If I remember correctly, Morrison has also stated that the Batman in FC is indeed Bruce. So what happens between RIP and FC#1? Seems strangely inelegant, somehow, especially since Bruce Wayne is shown in typical mansion-owner fashion in FC: Requiem.

Yeah, I wouldn't get my hopes up on this getting spelled out in any satisfying way. It doesn't bother me though. Some fans feel like everything has to connect and there has to be a clear chronological order to all the stories. As far as I'm concerned RIP and FC are unconnected. Let them stand as separate stories.


2.) Would it be a detriment to the Batman mythos if it was revealed that Darkseid was involved from the start? (Personally, I'd say yes).

They're never going to spell this out either. At least, Morrison isn't. Some writer down the road might make the connection and run with it. But I doubt it. It just seems more like a thing fans would want to see than something a writer would write. Does that make sense? Fans are always more concerned with how different parts of the universe connect than writers. Right now, RIP stands on its own with the ultimate evil's identity remaining vague. Blatantly revealing it was Darkseid opens a whole can of worms that changes the story in too many ways to count.


3.) Who will be Batman? At the outset of his run Morrison talked a good deal about the need to return Batman to his somewhat less gritty, pre-Dark Knight Returns-roots. That would rather obviously rule out Jason Todd, and somehow, Morrison has either changed his mind, or editorial has pulled the breaks on this plan. What's going on there? Am I reading too much into those earlier interviews?
(I've said this again and again now, but I'd absolutely love to see a fresh and more lighthearted Bat-book by Morrison and Alan Davis).

I think we've already seen the "less gritty" Dark Knight. This arc had Bruce going to parties, falling in love, solving a whodunit on an island alongside the Club of Heroes, fighting ninja man-bats, wearing purple and yellow, talking to bat-mite...
Yeah, dark stuff still happened. But this wasn't Miller's Batman, that's for sure.


4.) Why does everyone hate Damien?


I love Damien. "Mother, I want a batmobile!" Hahahaha.
I really want to see him do a (temporary) tour of duty as Robin.

[davepaton]

Would it be a detriment to the Batman mythos if it was revealed that Darkseid was involved from the start? (Personally, I'd say yes).

I think it would be totally detrimental to the Batman mythos. Whilst I know it's not, personally I like to consider the Batman continuity as being separate from the rest of the DC universe and when it does overlap then it should be kept to a minimum. The whole idea of Darkseid and new gods and the devil just aren't what Batman is all about personally. In a Superman comic definitely but not in Batman comic that I feel should reflect the fact that Batman is human and therefore should be set in as human a universe as possible.

[flapjaxx]

Whereas many people seem to have concluded that the Black Glove is the Devil, that has not yet been spelt out. I mean, what has been said has not conclusively pointed to a Satan-type figure. Instead, we've been given vague, round-about descriptions that may very well fit the general concept of "The" Devil, but which doesn't really point to the actual horn-and-hooves, solid biblical thing.

Agreed. It's not like we can extrapolate from all this that everything (or anything?) in the Bible is now canon reality in the DCU.

So what I'm thinking (I've still not given this up) is that this has something to do with Darkseid. Who has red glowing eyes?

Lots of figures in comic books. (The monk in 681 had glowing eyes--by your logic that would mean that HE was Darkseid?)

Who is indeed a "dark master"?

Lots of villains could be referred to that way.

Who has fallen backwards through time?

Why does the villain of RIP need to have fallen back through time?

Whose minions go about talking about the necessity of corrupting noble spirits?

It's easy to believe that any number of villains who consider themselves evil would enjoy doing that. The similarity IS an interesting commonality between FC and RIP, but I don't think it means that The Black Glove = Darkseid. I don't see why this would have to be more than a strong thematic parallel. As you sort of noted yourself, Morrison reuses a lot of the same ideas, and he also reuses similar phrases as well.

Who would be a more ideal vessel for Darkseid than Batman?

Apparently Turpin, for whatever reason, because that's who Darkside chose to inhabit in FC 4, even though he has already had Batman in custody for a few issues now. And before that I guess the human who became Boss Dark Side was also a more appropriate host than Bruce Wayne would have been. We'll see if Darkseid needs a new body in FC 6 and chooses Bruce then, but I don't see any particular reason to suspect that that's how things will play out.

Morrison has a tendency to string his stories together, and he also seems intent on setting up Darkseid as some sort of primal force of evil, rather than just a meanspirited rock-like ruler of a planet.

Sure, absolutely.

Would it be a detriment to the Batman mythos if it was revealed that Darkseid was involved from the start?

It wouldn't fit very well within the Bat-mythos. And from a wider DCU perspective there would be problems too, because in the "Rock of Ages" JLA arc Darkseid didn't even know who Batman was when he first encountered him.

We already do know a clear link between RIP and Batman's fate in FC, though. Toward the end of 681 the Devil/Hurt curses Batman and says that the next time he wears the costume will be his last. The next time he wears the costume appears to be during the early issues of Final Crisis, at which point he's promptly snatched up by Darkseid's underlings. So Morrison's saying that the curse the Devil/Hurt put on Bruce SEEMS to be the reason why Darkseid was able to nab him. (And between Batman 681 and FC #1 (or Requiem, since I guess that some of that takes place before FC), apparently Bruce returned to the cave and got back in the suit one more time. We just haven't seen that link yet, but apparently the next two issues of Batman will tell us about it.)

In general, in some metaphysical way, I don't think there's any doubt that Darkseid and "the Devil" are similar. Could we reasonably say that the consciousness of the Devil and the consciousness of Darkseid could sometimes, somehow, have some sort of rapport or be in communication with each other? Sure. But even as metaphysical and vague as all this stuff is, I don't really see any clear link that Darkseid in particular was part of the evil consciousness that went after Bruce in the form of the Black Glove.

[almundo]

either way it goes it will be intresting to see whatt he writers come up with. to be the obvious way out would be to have clay face impersonating batmans father, and Jason Todd stepping into the bat shoes.
But if batman was shot dead, would raz al ghoul be able to bring him back, if so would that bring back one of batmans sons.
oh its all too much to think about lol

[Liberty Belle Fan]

1.) We've been told Batman's final fate will be revealed in Final Crisis. In Final Crisis: Requiem, we clearly see that Bruce Wayne is still around. If I remember correctly, Morrison has also stated that the Batman in FC is indeed Bruce. So what happens between RIP and FC#1? Seems strangely inelegant, somehow, especially since Bruce Wayne is shown in typical mansion-owner fashion in FC: Requiem.

At first, after reading the final issue of R.I.P. I had some similar concerns as well, but once I re-read the solicits it was clear that the aftermath is explained in the next 2 issues of the Batman title. Of course, I want to know all right away, but I almost prefer to have the final fate revealed in Final Crisis.


2.) Whereas many people seem to have concluded that the Black Glove is the Devil, that has not yet been spelt out. I mean, what has been said has not conclusively pointed to a Satan-type figure. Instead, we've been given vague, round-about descriptions that may very well fit the general concept of "The" Devil, but which doesn't really point to the actual horn-and-hooves, solid biblical thing. What we have actually been told has more to do with the lack of good, the dark part of the subuniverse where even the light of the Godhead cannot reach. I'm not arguing that the Black Glove is not something or someone devil-ish, but I do not think that it necessarily has all the features of the christianized devil. So what I'm thinking (I've still not given this up) is that this has something to do with Darkseid. Who has red glowing eyes? Who is indeed a "dark master"? Who has fallen backwards through time? Whose minions go about talking about the necessity of corrupting noble spirits? Who would be a more ideal vessel for Darkseid than Batman? Morrison has a tendency to string his stories together, and he also seems intent on setting up Darkseid as some sort of primal force of evil, rather than just a meanspirited rock-like ruler of a planet. Would it be a detriment to the Batman mythos if it was revealed that Darkseid was involved from the start? (Personally, I'd say yes).

I actually hope it is Darkseid. If it's the devil, then it's really a shallow and silly cop-out. Darkseid's minions have been adamant about corrupting noble spirits, and for those that haven't read this, please read Final Crisis 1-4 and it will make more sense. It is clear when you see the flashback at the beginning of the issue of Batman 681 that the villain could very likely be Darkseid.


3.) Who will be Batman? At the outset of his run Morrison talked a good deal about the need to return Batman to his somewhat less gritty, pre-Dark Knight Returns-roots. That would rather obviously rule out Jason Todd, and somehow, Morrison has either changed his mind, or editorial has pulled the breaks on this plan. What's going on there? Am I reading too much into those earlier interviews?
(I've said this again and again now, but I'd absolutely love to see a fresh and more lighthearted Bat-book by Morrison and Alan Davis).

I'm fairly confident that the foreshadowing in Batman 681 indicates that Dick Grayson will pick up the mantle. The scene with Dick and the cowl could be nothing more than a cool drawing, but it would make the most sense.


4.) Why does everyone hate Damien? I mean, really? Yeah, he's a brat and a bit on the homicidal side, but he's fun. The only thing that really bothers me is the actual issue of fatherhood. That was never resolved, even though Robin was rather concerned with it a couple of issues back. I guess I like most people would prefer if Damien was actually not Bruce's son, but I'd definitely like him to stick around for a bit.

I do not hate Damien in the slightest and I enjoy the fact that GM was gutsy enough to bring him into the Batman mythos. I also enjoyed Damien as the Dark Knight in Batman 666, and anticipate him becoming Batman eventually if GM continues his run for several years to come.

[Mat001]

Maybe it's Dick disguised as Bruce during FC? What with whats already going on they probably didn't want to alarm the superhero community further?

A longshot I know...

No, it's Bruce as Batman and Nightwing is still Dick Grayson. Bruce is captured and when we see him, whatever happened messed him up but good.

It wouldn't fit very well within the Bat-mythos. And from a wider DCU perspective there would be problems too, because in the "Rock of Ages" JLA arc Darkseid didn't even know who Batman was when he first encountered him.

Except Darkseid met Batman in "Our Worlds At War", "The Supergirl From Krypton", "Vengeance" and "Torment". In two of the meetings, they had a conversation. Bruce told Darkseid that he was willing to destroy Apokolips to stop Darkseid and he said that he believed him, whereas if it was Superman, he wouldn't. The latter had Batman kicking Darkseid in the face. So Darkseid is familiar with Batman and if it was he or Dessad who was Simon Hurt, then it would make sense that they'd go after Bruce. Dessad would make more sense as he can be intimidated and would have fear in his eyes.

[IMJ]

Does anyone think this will be worth reading in trade, or should I just crib the story from online forums? So far it just sounds like another wipe out a hero event.

[Kiryu]

Does anyone think this will be worth reading in trade, or should I just crib the story from online forums? So far it just sounds like another wipe out a hero event.

Are you talking about RIP or Final Crisis?

RIP and Morrison's run has been ANYTHING BUT "wipe out a hero". Absolutely read it in trade.

[JohnConstantine]

i didnt read this whole thread, just kinda skimmed it, but it doesnt matter cuz i have seen much talk all over the R.I.P. forums speculating the black glove being "lucifer" or "The devil". however, lets not forget that the DC universe doesnt necessarily have an end-all-ruling "devil" in the biblical "satan" sense. there was the "sandman" trio of devils, led by lucifer who then quit, and the job was given to those 2 angels. dont know what the story was after that but im assuming that "reign in hell" is covering who is the new ruling power in DC's hell right now (I wouldnt know cuz i like to save up limited series single issues until i have all the issues and then read them all at once), so when you all say it may be "the devil", who exactly are you talking about? the darkseid theory (if the black glove is in fact "the devil" or a "devilish" character) seems to be the most valid so far, especially in light of the happenings in final crisis. However with that said, I personally have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE who the master of the black glove is, whether its the devil, darkseid, thomas wayne, mangrove pierce, or... i dunno... the gorilla grodd in reeeeeeally great make up. So to all you out there, if you think the black glove is the devil, (not darkseid) then what "devil" we talkin here?

[Lew Moxon]

Based on this I'd like to write a story about a guy who thinks he's the Devil.

Perhaps Mangrove Pierce is really that messed up.

People have believed themselves to be all sorts of things that they weren't. Nothing in Hurt's plan seemed specifically supernatural in tone, excepting how he announced it.

But, I'm sure Morrison wants Hurt to actually be a supernatural force and not a crazy man who thinks he's a supernatural force.


(By the way, if I wrote RIP the villain would be Martha Wayne. And then I would sit, watch and laugh as the threats mailed in.)

[JohnConstantine]

Based on this I'd like to write a story about a guy who thinks he's the Devil.


thats a damn good idea. some lunatic with no super powers whatsoever running around like a lout thinking he's lucifer or sumtin. i like it. probably shouldnt have posted it on a comic forum... youll see... itll be green arrows next villain. (and just so you know, im not being sarcastic here, i honestly think its a good idea, its difficult to convey tone in type, so i wanted to make sure u knew i wasnt just trying be some kinda a$$h@/e.) ok this is getting on the verge of some SERIOUS brown-nosing now so ima just end this with a dot dot dot...

[Lew Moxon]

Thanks.

It means a lot to get compliments on my ideas.

[lonewolf23k]

I don't hate Damien...

I just think he's unfit for the role of either Robin or Batman until he effin GROWS UP! :mad:

Seriously, that spoiled little brat needs a serious serving of Humble pie.

...Maybe losing his mother might shake off some of that arrogance. After all, a Batman needs to be born out of Tragedy, right?


And I don't think Black Glove is the Devil. I think he's just a sad, pathetic little man.


And it doesn't matter who fills in for Batman. We'll get Bruce Wayne back within a Year. I'm betting on it.

[Arksy]

Considering Batman is DC's most profitable franchise, i doubt they're going to keep Bruce Wayne out of the picture.