Batman: RIP - the overall arc

[Red_Knight]

So, I just finished reading Batman #681, and quite frankly, I am stunned. The spoilers didn't sound like much, but what's actually on the page was amazing. But I don't want to get ahead of myself.

I guess I should tackle the most important question first: Who is The Black Glove? It's a question a lot of folks seem to be struggling with. Me, I thought it was abundantly clear: The Black Glove is the devil. Morrison told us that it's the devil over and over again, and its a revelation that fits all the clues both in and outside of the books. Personally, it doesn't bother me at all that people guessed it in advance. I mean, everyone was a suspect at some point in time. In order to pull a literal surprise reveal, Morrison would had to use some obscure one-shot villain from the 60's, -- and that certainly wouldn't have done the story justice.

What surprised me most is that I liked this reveal. I don't usually care for supernatural elements in the Batman books, but I liked what Morrison did. His devil isn't a Buffy-esque demon, or a glorified magician like Neron. He doesn't want to call attention to himself; -- that would go against his purpose. He is a patient planner; an amoral tempter, and, of course, an evil genius. To me, that's not only much more interesting, it's also much more in line with the Biblical view of the Devil.

Of course, if Hurt is the devil, then Honor Jackson must be God, or at least an angel. Wow. Before #681, Honor's ample on-panel time didn't really seem justified. Assuming that he was part of Bruce's mental programming didn't make sense to me, but I really didn't want to consider that Bruce Wayne would be wandering the streets of Gotham talking to a ghost. Now that the subtly supernatural framework of the story was been revealed, I find myself able to enjoy these scenes in a whole new light:

"Honor Jackson never forgets a good turn." as in "The king will answer them, 'I tell you with certainty, since you did it for one of the least important of these brothers of mine, you did it for me." (Matthew 25:40)

"No one knows about the treasures I keep." as in "No eye has seen, no ear has heard,. no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those. who love him.” (1 Corinthians 2:9)

"An maybe one day when you're rich again, you'll find this and remember Honor Jackson." as in "Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, "I have no delight in them" (Ecclesiastes 12:1)

Moving on... What I liked even more was the daring ambiguity of the reveal. It leaves plenty of room for interpretation. To me, it seemed clear that The Black Glove is the devil. But others might disagree.... If you don't like the notion of Batman matching wits with the devil, you can easily ignore this notion and assume that Hurt is, in fact, Dr. Thomas Wayne. Maybe both Bruce and Alfred are in denial. I mean, Mangrove Pierce? Really? That certainly came out nowhere... One could argue that Bruce is just clutching at straws here. Of course, if the idea of Thomas Wayne being a villain offends you, you can choose to believe Bruce and safely assume that Hurt is just a very disturbed Pierce, who for whatever reason seems to believe he is Wayne. Stranger things have happened, especially in comics.

The saying is that you can't please everyone. I daresay Morrison's reveal could come close, though. There is an answer for everyone, and all of them make sense. Color me impressed. A lot of people seemed to complain about the lack of finality. Me, I felt that the end was pretty definitive. The Black Glove is revealed and Batman overcomes his evil machinations, beating the odds and proving the strength of his spirit. As an end to the arc that started in #677, that's quite enough. Of course, there are questions left to be answered. Morrison isn't going anywhere, though.

The amazing historical relevance of the run has already been discussed in detail, of course, but it can't be praised highly enough, IMO. When long-forgotten 60's concepts like the Club Of Heroes and Bat Mite first re-appeared, I didn't really get it. I thought it was all part of the weird Silver Age revival trend that was going on at the time. Since I never cared for flying dogs with capes, spandex-clad mad scientist Luthor or most of the Silver Age camp, I was less than thrilled when Morrison seemingly jumped on the bandwagon. Now, I find myself reading books like Batman in the Forties and actually enjoying them, having found a whole new appreciation for the storied history of Batman. I had no idea how well Morrison would be able to update these aged ideas; -- including the played-out, shamefully one-note Joker we had to endure over the last couple of years. I certainly hope we'll get to see more of the Joker Morrison introduced us to.

IMHO, Morrison's run works on a level that very few stories manage to; -- it was deep, yet fun; complicated the first time around, yet straight-forward in retrospect. It was love letter to all things Batman, while at the same time remaining a Morrison piece through and through.

I'm sure some people will think I'm exaggerating, but to me, R.I.P. is the definitive Batman story. It's my new favorite, and although I have the entire arc in the monthly format, the (hopefully inevitable) Absolute Edition will be mine. I can't wait to see what Morrison has planned next for Batman!

[zur en arrh]

I think it's turned out to be my new favorite arc ever, as well. Morrison managed to write this in a way that makes you think that this exact run was planned the moment the character was created 70 years ago. The reveal that Hurt is the Devil is done well, because it isn't 100% spelled out for you. You have to think about what you just read and make the assumption for yourself. And there are so many deeper layers to the story, like "Zorro in Arkham" and The Black Glove being responsible for creating Batman. It is just amazing to me.

When I read the spoilers I thought I would be let down, but the more I talk about it with the guys on this site and the more I read their theories and come up with my own, the more brilliant I think this story is. And it really isn't over yet. I can't wait to find out Bruce's fate in Final Crisis 7. This arc had me foaming at the mouth for each issue, and it made me theorize and think nearly every step of the way. And that is the reason why it is my new favorite story.

[drinkblatzbeer]

Don't think the art is worthy enough to make this an absolute edition...it's really the only knock i can put against the "Black Glove" storyline...

I've personally enjoyed almost all of Morrison's Batman run...even though, #663, his prose fell short of being anywhere near as good as his comic work can be...
it seemed tedious for being so short...

the ending to R.I.P. after reading it once, and then reading grant's entire run with the ending afterwards ended up being a very satisfying story...
at first, I felt a little underwhelmed until I reread everything heading up to it and it basically gave us the ultimate idea of Batman in a nutshell...the joker, basically saying as much as he explained how frustrated he gets, that Batman always is basically one step ahead of him...
also, found it kind of ironic, for a little while the Joker was the only seemingly clear thinking and sane person in the group as he dissected what the black glove organization missed detail wise and basically sat back watching the "joke" being played out on them...

the revelation of the devil being the main culprit does come off, in retrospect, a bit cheesy, but nothing that woulld ruin anything else for me, so i can let it pass...

I'll definitely revisit this entire run thusfar a couple times in the near future, maybe along with Final Crisis when it is finished...

the last few years, as long as it's felt, with Morisson at the helm have been fun...i personally cannot wait to see what he still has in store assuming he comes back for what he said he would...

[Captain Jim]

If this is going to stand as a separate thread, then lets make sure the comments address the arc in total, not just 681.

[zur en arrh]

I've personally enjoyed almost all of Morrison's Batman run...even though, #663, his prose fell short of being anywhere near as good as his comic work can be...
it seemed tedious for being so short...

I personally think 663 was one of the best parts of his run. I don't know, something about how dark and twisted it came off as had me intrigued. It made the Clown at Midnight Joker become my favorite version.

[Zuzu]

I struggled through the R.I.P storyline at first... It felt like I needed at PHD in comic books to truly "get" everything, but as the issues went on I started to understand HOW to read it more. It's made me appreciate parts of older comics that I never really understood. I think it was respectful of the old story lines..... and the "Zorro in Arkham" line was a really touching moment for me.

I really liked your review Red_Knight! It put words to a lot of the things I like about the run, and issue #681 especially.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I really like some of the ideas Morrison had at work here (Batman cheating death, death apparently coming back for him, the subconscious persona and the Zur Enn Arrh reveal), but thought the arc as a whole was long-winded and clumsy. If Grant had trimmed some of the fat and tightened up the dialogue, I would have enjoyed it much more.

[Chiroptera]

On the whole, I think Morrison's run is a decent one, but I think it could have been much better. That's what makes me so bitter, I think. I can see what he tried to achieve and I can appreciate it, and because I feel it fell short of the mark, it makes me dislike it that much more.

Some characters (Jezebel Jet especially) felt like they were just pointless throw away things, more useless than a Bond girl. New characters, such as Damian, failed to contribute anything of worth. And long standing characters didn't feel like themselves.

I liked Grant Morrison's version of Nightwing more than I liked his Batman. And when Nightwing is appearing as a guest star in a Batman comic he should not be more interesting and enjoyable to read about than Batman is.

Morrison's run feels like it slipped into one of those tragic failures in writing. It was a wonderful idea, a wonderful premise, and a great story; but in order to make it work he had to writer the characters in a way that didn't feel right or natural and left me feeling like I was reading a poor imitation of a real Batman story.


I wish I could take Morrison's idea, hand it to Denny O'Neil and ask him to write it. I think it would be the story of the century. As it is now, I have my Morrison Batman run sitting next to my copes of Amazon's Attack at the bottom of my comics collection.
I think that speaks for itself.

[ZT4]

Loved every issue. Didnt pander to the simplistic crowd, stuck to it's guns, had an aura of chills and mystery, and made Bruce look a little more dangerous.

[Retro315]

I'm pretty thrilled with it.

A lot of little details kept me guessing, but in the end the only thing that could possibly make sense came to light. And while it brings up some questions as to the relationships between abstract things like the Devil and the Reaper and how they relate to Darkseid in my mind ... Batman beating the Devil in a very long game, and the Joker seeing through the ruse the whole time (and showing that sociopathic insanity do not equal "true evil") were great.

The Devil made mistakes. He's been known to do that in the past, and tedious as he is these days, there's still guys like Batman who trump him. And guys like Joker, who even the king of evil just don't understand. Devil figured he could use insanity like a servant ... only to find out that insanity doesn't follow rules, good or bad. (Joker's comments about "love your work, yadda-yadda" notwithstanding).

I slapped my self in the forehead for not realizing Joker's forked tongue clue was about Hurt ... but let's face it, Joker is vain AND recently declared himself a "god of crime" ... I didn't think a "I'm your devil" reference was too far even for him!

Very cool, very interesting, and very neat way to use Silver Age concepts in a tale that blurs lines between psychological and existential.

[He who laughs last]

The RIP arc as a whole was decent. Very overhyped, but still decent. GM introduced a few unique concepts to the Bat mythos that were good (the Black case book of a guy who should be clinically insane, a new take on Bat Mite, a batman 'matrix' with the grids, the back up personality, etc). All very Morrison concepts. Even though I felt a little underwhelmed at first with 681, after a reread of all the RIP issues, it sufficed. I look forward to Grant writing again, just to see where the story goes. I didn't pick up his run except for the late Resurrection of Ra's and then the prose issue he did. From what I have seen, pretty innovative stuff regarding explanations for silver age continuity. even when all the chips looked down for bats, GM still made his look like the ultimate bad@ss in anticipating things ahead of time, from arc to arc during this run.

Not just talking about the batverse here, but after the last few years of writing... Grant needs a well deserved break. I wouldn't call his recent record writing for DC as absolutely groundbreaking (52 yes, RIP maybe) in the last few years... But he is working himself into the position that Bendis has with Marvel as THE head shotcaller (aside from Geoff Johns and DiDio) when it comes to writing the future of the multiverse or whatever.

[Kiryu]

I loved this run so much I'm going to go back and get the hardcover collections. This will be lengthy, sorry.

It begins as a classic and over-the-top Superhero hero story of Batman vs an army of Man-Bats with Mr Kubert's fantastic pencils fitting with this story perfectly. There are allusions of things to come, the stemming of the tide in Gotham, the graffiti, and the fake Batman. But at heart, on a basic level, this is a simple tale of Batman being a superhero, kicking ass and taking names. He's got a rocketship. he assaults Talia's Manbat army, he fights his way through them, and in full on playboy Bruce Wayne fashion, he does it all and calls up a hottie to blow of some built up steam. We also get reminded of the over-the-top weirdness of Batman by Talia's presentation of his son, Damian. Not once does Morrison try and endear Damian to us not does he ever have Batman act particularly fatherly too him. He's simply there, another strange fixture in a strange man's life. Batman and Son really gives a classic breakdown over the over-the-top bombastic Superhero style Batman. It is also the only time Morrison uses the classic Joker and I believe his few lines in Batman #655 rival the Paul Dini Robin/Joker issue over in 'Tec. This is my least favorite arc of the run but still a very solid read.

"I did it! I finally killed Batman! And in front of a busload of disabled kids!". Right after Batman and Son we get "The Clown at Midnight" following a break from "Grotesque" a fill-in arc. This is a prose story that gets deeper into the Joker's re-invention of himself. It delivers the red/black pattern for us to ponder on and gives a creepy new Joker, one I wasn't too enthralled with when I first read, but who grew on me in RIP where he, well, spoke. This ties directly into #681. The Joker constantly re-invents himself, arguably re-defining and/or deepening his psychosis. But Batman just ends up beating him, confronting him with patterns and parallels, the same Batman beats the new Joker. "Every single time I try to think outside his toybox, he builds a new box around me". Not my favorite Joker story, nor a part of the arc I loved. But aces.

"The Three Ghosts of Batman". This is another Superhero story, but it's a more grounded and street level take on Batman. We see him interact with the low-lifes of Gotham, talking to whore, scoring info. Tracking down the Bane-Bat figure on the streets. He finds him and well, for a one-note character, Bane-Bat is one of the most disturbing characters in Morrison's entire run. He's a monster of a former cop stuck in a room, juiced up on Monster Serum and Venom, eating pizza and screwing/killing whores. It's a horrible sight, commonplace at Gotham. Like the previous arc, it escalates into standard Superhero affair. Batman and Robin attack and beat the holy hell out of the Bane-Bat. But this un-earths some information, the dreams of the third Batman, the conspiracy with the cops. It primes us for the larger story to come. Preps us for the Third Man.

Now we come to "The Number of the Beast". Batman 666. The devil parallels become very apparent here. The numbering, the referencing to deals with the devil. We meet the elusive Third Batman for the first time here, as a villain of Damian's, who we learn has taken Bruce's place, foreshadowing the hard times to come. We see what a hell-hole Gotham has become without Batman. And Morrison, as he has throughout the run, re-enforces his main point about Batman "Victory in Preparation". Which gets Damian through his battle with the third man. This is a very strange and dark superhero story in the future.

Next up, "The Black Glove". This is a classic Detective story and a dark throwback to Batman's happier times. Appropriately, JH Williams III, whom I love, illustrates this tale. He brings the weird in his panel layouts and homages the happier days in such a eerie way, with panels happening inside Gloves and Bat Symbols. It's lovely. It also is very very different from the previous arcs in that it shows us another aspect of Batman, his detective word and deduction. It also moves the main plot forward with the establishment of the Black Glove as a force behind the scenes. A really great arc, one of my favorite Batman arcs of all time. It gives us the Batmen of many nations, which some feel takes away from Batman. I disagree, we see all the vigilantes and crime fighters and it just gives me more to compare Batman to and I appreciate him more for not being a one-note/gimmick hero like so many of the Club of Heroes.

Finally Tony Daniel takes the scene. I think Tony's art really firs this bit of the story. It's a little off, he has very unique angles. It attributes to the overall weirdness, which is conveyed here. One of my favorite lines in the series, used just as the Third Man shows up, to establish how bat-shit insane he is. "7:35 last night. The Bat-Singal came on in brain". Allusions to a trigger word perhaps? The Third man makes reference to this when he mentions to Batman "Ask yourself why we reactivated? Why your replacements are circling like vultures. Maybe it's because we know your luck is running out." The Black Glove has made it's move, played the first cards from it's hand. Here we look into another aspect of Batman. Kubert dealt with the superhero, JH the Detective, and Tony in this arc deals with the tragedy.

We get an issue on Batman experiencing the Thogal, death and rebirth, and the aftermath of his family's murder. We see that Dr Hurt used tragedy to create the three deranged Batmen. This is an oft-touched aspect of Batman that is touched upon heavily in RIP's finale. Does he do more harm then good with his existence? In an act to replicate Batman, 3 twisted monsters were born. This also gives light to the Miracle on Crime Alley. Dr Hurt's experiments in tragedy created monsters, as expected.

He adapted Gotham, the "Machine to Make Batman" and forced it on those three cops and it destroyed them. It's another testament to how unique and strong and noble a person Batman is. The tragedy of his family's death should have destroyed him, instead it created the ultimate force of good. A "Miracle on Crime Alley" indeed. This also has allusions to Batman's ultimate mission, "To create a world where a young Bruce Wayne's parents would never be gunned down in an alley. To create a world where Batman would never exist". "The Miracle on Crime Alley", what should have been the ultimate corruption of virtue birthed the embodiment of it. The Devil was denied an innocent soul's corruption. And again, like every arc of Morrison's run, the underlying plot advances. We learn the King of Crime is out there. He tells us his name.

I'm not ready to give my thoughts on RIP yet, plus I have to get cooking for Thanksgiving. But Grant Morrison's Batman is, in my opinion, the best thing to spin out of DC since Infinite Crisis. It's one of the best runs on Batman I've ever read. Am I drinking Kool-Aide? Maybe. Are any of the things I pointed out actually in the run? Do they really exist? Was it Morrison's intention for me to draw these parallels? Or did I just take a trip into the 5th Dimension and imagine them all? Honestly, I couldn't tell you. But this run, if nothing else, made me think. And I can give no higher praise then that.

[Robo Ape]

To be blunt Morrison has been writing it like a poor man's Warren Ellis, if you want that hire the real thing & get Ellis on the title.

I think Morrison is a good writer but his performance on this title has been well below his usual level.

I was happy when I heard he was going to write it but the reality has proved to be something different.:(

Also this whole storyline has felt very forced.

[Captain Jim]

It was a wonderful idea, a wonderful premise, and a great story; but in order to make it work he had to writer the characters in a way that didn't feel right or natural and left me feeling like I was reading a poor imitation of a real Batman story.

You may have put your finger on my problem with it as well.

[Chiroptera]

You may have put your finger on my problem with it as well.

Personally, I think so.
I think it was what hurt the story, and I think it's one of Grant's short-comings as a writer. When it's a character he created himself it works, but whenever he's put to work on an established character he tends to write the character into the story rather than letting the character carry the story.

An good exception to this, I think, is All-Star Superman. In that story it really felt like the story was being moved BY Superman's actions. In Grant's Bat run it has felt more like Grant's just telling us a pop-psyche tale with Batman along for the ride.
I'd agree with the earlier poster that, if we want a good psychological introspective of Batman, Ellis would have been the ideal writer for it.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I loved this run so much I'm going to go back and get the hardcover collections. This will be lengthy, sorry.

It begins as a classic and over-the-top Superhero hero story of Batman.......

Very nice retrospective! You tied a few things up for me that I hadn't noticed before.

[Robo Ape]

Personally, I think so.
I think it was what hurt the story, and I think it's one of Grant's short-comings as a writer. When it's a character he created himself it works, but whenever he's put to work on an established character he tends to write the character into the story rather than letting the character carry the story.

An good exception to this, I think, is All-Star Superman. In that story it really felt like the story was being moved BY Superman's actions. In Grant's Bat run it has felt more like Grant's just telling us a pop-psyche tale with Batman along for the ride.
I'd agree with the earlier poster that, if we want a good psychological introspective of Batman, Ellis would have been the ideal writer for it.

As I said above it was like he was trying to channel Ellis & his writing style and completely failing to carry it off if that was his intention.

I can only imagine how much better it would have been if Ellis had actually been writing it.

[oldschool]

Well, there is a fair amount of controversy surrounding this story. Now that it is done (at least this portion), I think it deserves a grading. What say you, BatFans??

[zur en arrh]

I'd give it an A+, personally.

Edit: For the poll, I picked excellent.

[Batman was taken]

Good.

I really liked it, but the ending fell flat to me. Maybe my opinion will change once I get around to reading it all at once. Seems that others who have done so said it reads a lot better that way.

[TheAmazingSpidey]

I chose "Decent, but expected more."

I'd give it a "C."

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Well, there is a fair amount of controversy surrounding this story. Now that it is done (at least this portion), I think it deserves a grading. What say you, BatFans??

Hi, oldschool! Why, fancy meeting you here...:biggrin: I loved RIP and I've just re-read #681 and my opinion hasn't changed. I'm glad I started picking up Batman, I love Grant Morrison's take on Batman but I know how Grant likes to handle superheroes: I've been reading Grant's work since Zenith...

[oldschool]

Hi, oldschool! Why, fancy meeting you here...:biggrin: I loved RIP and I've just re-read #681 and my opinion hasn't changed. I'm glad I started picking up Batman, I love Grant Morrison's take on Batman but I know how Grant likes to handle superheroes: I've been reading Grant's work since Zenith...

Yeah, I come 'round these parts too!!

[md62]

I gave it a "C". It was entertaining but confusing. I can't believe that Grant Morrison wrote this & All Star Superman because All Star Superman gets an "A" from me.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Yeah, I come 'round these parts too!!

It's always a pleasure to chat with you, matey!:biggrin:

[oldschool]

It's always a pleasure to chat with you, matey!:biggrin:

Same here! So, you loved it eh? I liked it but found it a bit lacking in the final act.....also, it just felt like too much work to follow. I don't mean that a comic has to be simple and a 7-minute read as most are today, but it just preumed too much and he left everything way too vague for my liking; I was really expecting a bigger payoff.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Same here! So, you loved it eh? I liked it but found it a bit lacking in the final act.....also, it just felt like too much work to follow. I don't mean that a comic has to be simple and a 7-minute read as most are today, but it just preumed too much and he left everything way too vague for my liking; I was really expecting a bigger payoff.

Yeah, I was expecting a different ending too considering the amount of hype DC has put out concerning the story. However, there have been rumours of forced rewrites of the endings of RIP and Final Crisis thus causing the delays in both series. Maybe Grant had a mind-blowing resolution in mind which was ultimately vetoed and had to also rewrite FC too because it tied in to Batman's fate.
I really hope there's more yet to be revealed because the ending leaves so many doors open it's causing a draught...:biggrin:

[Redem]

Yeah, I was expecting a different ending too considering the amount of hype DC has put out concerning the story. However, there have been rumours of forced rewrites of the endings of RIP and Final Crisis thus causing the delays in both series. Maybe Grant had a mind-blowing resolution in mind which was ultimately vetoed and had to also rewrite FC too because it tied in to Batman's fate.
I really hope there's more yet to be revealed because the ending leaves so many doors open it's causing a draught...:biggrin:

Any idea as to what could have been the mind blowing ending that suppose to be? it might be an amusing exercise:biggrin:

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Any idea as to what could have been the mind blowing ending that suppose to be? it might be an amusing exercise:biggrin:

Well, my own personal theory is that Bruce was behind the Black Glove and ended up in Arkham Asylum because he was criminally insane. There was a lot of emphasis placed on Batman's split personalities, so why not an evil personality that was just as prepared as the Batman persona?
If I'd written it that's how it may have ended up.
And now over to the part where you all tell me you're thankful that I'm not writing Batman...:biggrin:

[Redem]

Well, my own personal theory is that Bruce was behind the Black Glove and ended up in Arkham Asylum because he was criminally insane. There was a lot of emphasis placed on Batman's split personalities, so why not an evil personality that was just as prepared as the Batman persona?
If I'd written it that's how it may have ended up.
And now over to the part where you all tell me you're thankful that I'm not writing Batman...:biggrin:

The big reveal was suppose to be that Batman is actually the one making all the nuts escape from Arkham!

[Kiryu]

Why was the Morrison's Entire Run thread merged with "RIP Arc" thread? Eh, well I suppose Morrison's entire run is essentially RIP.

[Captain Jim]

Why was the Morrison's Entire Run thread merged with "RIP Arc" thread? Eh, well I suppose Morrison's entire run is essentially RIP.

More or less. It all led up to and culminated in RIP, in any case.

It just seemed to me like the two threads were essentially discussing the same topic. The more recent thread simply added a poll.

[JohnnieFantasmo]

As a casual, on/off comics reader, the thing I appreciate most about Morrison's run is how it stayed in-continuity for the character's sake, not just for continuity's sake. To fully appreciate this run I've had to go back and learn about things such as Robin Dies at Dawn, Zur-En-Arrh/Tlano, The Club of Heroes, Joe Chill, Bat-Mite... Even Damien is in-continuity, as I understand.

This was a great way for me to learn about interesting aspects of Batman's history and I can only imagine how great it was for long time fans to see some of this stuff reappear from out of nowhere.

The whole thing just feels kind of incomplete, though. It's been said before that RIP feels like the end of a first act, and I hope this is true. As it stands it's not a satisfiable ending. I wish Zur-En-Arrh and Bat-Mite would've lasted longer. Bruce (not Bruce) in that ugly costume with that imaginary bat-imp following him around everywhere was easily my favorite thing about the whole thing so far.

[Doc Goblin]

I found RIP to be a good enough Batman story. Not a classic, not one of the great Batman stories, but a good one.

Morrison does a great job at capturing Batman as the ultimate man and built some cool ideas out of that. I mean, seriously. To protect against psychological attacks, he sets up a way to go crazy on his terms with the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh? That is awesome. So was the casebook entry Tim read. Really insightful.

RIP suffered from overhype, which I don't really blame Morrison for. As far as somehow being the final chapter or whatever of Bruce Wayne as Batman... this was just a good story. It wasn't that.

And the big Dr. Hurt reveal? Not satisfying at all. Whether it's the Thomas Wayne, the Devil or Mangrove Pierce. It ranges from ridiculous to completely underwhelming. Really, the villains of this piece weren't much to speak of. Especially Jezebel Jet... an empty, but attractive, shell of a love interest/betrayer.

[oldschool]

I know these polls are not significant-enough samples but still surprised at how many people here have graded this arc "Decent...." or less.

[Kiryu]

I know these polls are not significant-enough samples but still surprised at how many people here have graded this arc "Decent...." or less.

Well, any attempt to do something huge with a major character is instantly polarizing. I'm certain there is a big bias against RIP because some see it as an end to the Bruce Wayne Batman and hold Grant personally responsible for that, despite his apparent lack of involvement in what appears to be the Post-Bruce Bat-verse.

Plus Grant in and of himself is hugely polarizing. Combine that with an underlying fear of change in a lot of comicdon and those that celebrate his strange work on All Star Superman will condemn him for it here.

And then there are people who just don't like it because it isn't for them. So, it's no real shock how the numbers look.

I'm quite happy to see that the number of people who found some enjoyment of the story vastly overwhelms those who found none. And, lovely enough, there is a single point difference between those who loved it and found it good combined and the Decent/Crap tier.

[Karl O'Neill]

I loved the entire 6 issue arc, spending time discovering all the symbolism and dfferent meanings to all the work and effort morrison put into this story and his complete run was more than entertaining to do.

[Splatt]

Decent to great until the finale where it all fell apart. My vote goes to the "crap" option.

[Robo Ape]

If we are grading it I would give it a C-. The whole storyline felt far too forced with too many characters acting out of character. Batman himself felt like he was just a puppet to the storyline. Morrison also felt like he was throwing controversial stuff in, for example about Batman's parents, just for the sake of it.

[Chiroptera]

I wanted to think on this awhile before I cast my vote.
Since we're grading this, I'm going to break it down like it was an actual writing assignment and rank each piece accordingly. Back when I was getting started as a writer myself my first creative writing teacher taught me something. Just as Journalists apply the 5 W's (who, what, when, where, why) to their works, a good creative writer applies 5 C's. The C's are:

Cohesion, bringing together the parts to form a successful whole.
Continuity, following the story from line to line, knowing what came before it and having an idea of what will happen afterwards.
Character, knowing your characters, how they think, speak, act and operate; allowing you to bring them to life in a more believable way.
Composition, building the story within the proper guidelines of grammar, rhetoric, and narrating the story with smooth understandable communication.
Comprehension, the ease of understanding for the story. Is it coherent, does it make sense, do the scenes flow smoothly into one another?

Along with the five C's the other two things were were told to remember were: Storyline, knowing how it got started, what "acts" the story will move through, and where it will end.
Audience approval, who is your target audience? Does this seem like a story they will enjoy and want to read? Can it hold their attention from start to finish.


With that basis laid out, here's my grade and a brief explanation of my reasoning for each.

- The Grade -
Storyline: C+
The story had potential, but it's been done. Morrison's come up with some interesting stories in the past, and he's told one's we've heard before in a way that makes them more interesting than usual. RIP was not one of those times.
We've seen Batman face an enemy that seems to be one step ahead of him.
We've seen him be defeated.
We've seen him prove he's not actually defeated.
We've seen him surrender the cowl to a protégé.
It's all been done before, and this version supposedly being a bit more permanent than other versions doesn't make it any less of a 'been there done that' storyline. I expected more when Morrison was announced as the new writer for Batman, and I was disappointed to see him rehashing the same old "Let's have Wayne stop being Batman" story.

Cohesion: B+
It's one of the things he did well in this. Not only did each consecutive issue of RIP tie-in together nicely, but his entire run on Batman was all leading up to this. This wasn't one of those runs on a comic where the writer suddenly got an idea and decided to try and tie in a bunch of different previous parts of his run just for the story; this was a planned and intended tie in from the first issue all the way to the most recent. One big melting pot of hints, red herrings, clues, misdirections and subtle foreshadowing. In this regard, I think Grant did a nice job.

Continuity: A
No matter whether you loved it or hated it. Seeing Morrison use all those silver age stories and turn them into an understandable and congruent part of the modern-day Batman's exploits is an incredible thing.
Personally, I found it unnecessary and a bit of a time sink, but it's still impressive; very deserving of a top grade.

Character: D
This is where the feces hit the fan, in my opinion.
Batman pretty much through his allies under the bus in the effort of engaging his "ultimate enemy." He put himself in danger, he puts his partners and comrades in danger, and he pretty much relied fully on nothing going wrong. There was no fail safe for if something DID happen poorly. For "the man who thinks of everything" Batman really didn't seem like he'd thought much of anything through in this story. He seemed like he was flying by the seat of his pants, and that seems completely contradictory to everything I've ever read about the Bat.

Then there's Damian. Seriously. What is the POINT of this character, other than to have a generic tie-in to the Al Ghul family, and for Grant to have his own personal Batman to sculpt and design as he sees fit. The character's annoying, shallow, and flat-out boring. The key to a good character, even one the audience is meant to dislike, is to give them one trait the audience can like about them; so even though they're despicable there's still some redeeming quality that makes them enjoyable to read about. Damian doesn't seem to have any such quality, he's just an irritating spoiled brat that we're supposed to accept into the Bat mythos as being here to stay and potentially being the next Robin and a future Batman.

Turning the murder of the Wayne's into a huge conspiracy, plotted by a group of debauchery, zealot, rich folk who just so happened to KNOW that doing this in this way would ensure that the surviving son would become a super hero rather than blowing his own brains out when the depression overwhelms him? Making there be the potential for the Wayne's to have been drug addicts and for Thomas to have been trying to get his son and wife killed? It all just screams "shock value" and seems completely pointless and unnecessary to the plot.

Finally we have Jezebel Jet. She was an abysmal, hollow, one dimensional character and I think almost everyone knew she was evil from the moment we got introduced to her. She could have been an interesting manipulative villainess but her lack of page time, combined with what is apparently a great deal of involvement in ensuring everything went according to plan for the Black Glove just leaves her in that "She's dangerous because the writer says so." category of boring villains.

Composition: B
Over all the plot is easy to follow, which saves this grade from being lowered. As far as decent transition from issue to issue and scene to scene I found this area to be unpredictable. Some scenes flowed together nicely and others left me going “Huh?” and needing to reread the scene multiple times to make sure I was properly understanding what was supposed to be happening. I think most of this was due to art and dialogue not syncing up fluidly, which really should be something the artist and writer get together and make sure of when you're doing a character and continuity changing event like this.

Comprehension: C-
As I said earlier, I feel like all the tie ins to his silver age adventures were unnecessary. It was kind of amusing, but really not something that NEEDED to be done. Very few other DC heroes still have their silver age adventures in-continuity. There was no reason to bring Batman's back. But, that's Morrison's shtick. He likes to do that.
Unfortunately, it's very hard to read and appreciate a story if you're needing to go back after every issue, reference your Batman encyclopedia and use the internet just to understand the references made in the book. This is not a reader friendly scenario. You have to be a complete Batman aficionado in order to really appreciate this storyline. Heck, I AM a Batman aficionado and even I had moments where I just had to stop and go “Huh?” then go dig my Batman encyclopedia out of my collectibles just so I could understand what had be referenced or what had just happened.
If you need an encyclopedia just to appreciate the nuances of the story, the comprehension level is to high.

Audience Approval: C
Now this one is, admittedly, subjective to personal opinion; but I'm going to try and keep this one as objective as possible.
Most people don't like change.
Most Fans don't like changes to their favorite characters.
Most major changes to major characters get retconned within a year.
Overall, change just doesn't seem to go over well in comic books. The change never sticks, and it's usually heralded by one group who loves it and another group who hates it; and anyone who stays at a middle ground gets harassed endlessly by both sides of the spectrum.
When you want to make a successful change to a character, it usually has to be a slow process, subtle shifts over time which people can become accustomed to and can accept more easily. This also has the affect of seeming more natural and believable. People don't change there was in a day, but they do often change their ways over long extents of time.
Grant wanted to shake things up in the Batman world. He wanted to put someone new under the cowl and he wanted to move away from Bruce Wayne as Batman. That alone is going to get a lot of snarls from fanboys; but to do it in this way, this way we've seen before and been through before? That was a mistake.

You know, I don't LIKE the idea of anyone besides Bruce Wayne EVER being Batman... But if it had been done in an interesting way? I'd give it a chance. I would love to see a long story arc that involved Bruce actively making the decision on his own, without any outside influence, to retire from the role of Batman. I'd have loved to have seen him come to Dick and Tim with this decision and explain that the world still needs Batman. And I'd love to see the transition as Dick (or whoever is decided to fill in) prepares to accept the mantle of the Bat and actually become Batman, not by necessity but by choice. I'd have liked to see this happen over time, progressing, with Bruce actively resuming the role of Mentor as he trains Nightwing (or Robin, or whoever) to not only do what Batman has to do, but to really BECOME Batman, to learn all the subtle nuances and differences that make Batman a different hero from Robin, Nightwing, or any of the supers they associate with. I think that would have been a very GOOD story. This was not that story, unfortunately. And it's been met with the usual mixed emotions that stories of it's ilk are met with.

Overall Grade: C-
Crap – What a let down.

[Sidepocket]

My thoughts:

1) I like a couple of the ideas and visuals, but they could have been done in a different and better story.

2) If this is the fall of the great Batman, then this was the lamest fall ever. I think that is what is pissing people off more than anything.

3) Grant is to blame because he contributed to the hype big time, just like that but kisser Mark Miller.

[Captain Jim]

I wanted to think on this awhile before I cast my vote.
Since we're grading this, I'm going to break it down like it was an actual writing assignment and rank each piece accordingly
...

What an excellent post; easily the best I've read on this subject to date.

[Chiroptera]

Thank you Jim, I appreciate that.
While I personally disliked this story a great deal, I am still a writer, and I know the one thing I hate more than anything else is for someone to grade my story simply based on how they personally felt about it.

I'm sure Morrison hates it too, as does every writer I've ever spoken with about reviews. I wanted to give the Grant the same kind of review I myself would get if I were being graded for a story, and as I said, there are somethings where he really impressed me and points where I think he could have tried harder.

[davepaton]

So if Batman dies in Final Crisis can anyone tell me what the point of RIP was?

[Paul McEnery]

Thank you Jim, I appreciate that.
While I personally disliked this story a great deal, I am still a writer, and I know the one thing I hate more than anything else is for someone to grade my story simply based on how they personally felt about it.

I'm sure Morrison hates it too, as does every writer I've ever spoken with about reviews. I wanted to give the Grant the same kind of review I myself would get if I were being graded for a story, and as I said, there are somethings where he really impressed me and points where I think he could have tried harder.

You know, it's also important to review the work on it's own terms, not just in the way it differs from the way you would have written it.

Although God knows that second one's the mark of a true writer. :tongue:

[milosimpkin]

Ummm, yes. Don't think I can really vote in this poll. There's no option for "Interesting but what the **** was that about?" Being new(ish) to DC I like to give 'events' a go to expose me to new things. But I really didn't get what the hell this was all about to be honest.

Oh well. I guess I'm not the target audience :)

[AbsurdistEmergence]

I loved RIP and Grant Morrison's entire run. I have had no clue on what was to come and I loved it. I hope if Morrison is continuing after a little break (which seems to be the case) is to see more of the Batman/Joker relationship. Morrison's touches on it have been great.

[Paul McEnery]

Ummm, yes. Don't think I can really vote in this poll. There's no option for "Interesting but what the **** was that about?" Being new(ish) to DC I like to give 'events' a go to expose me to new things. But I really didn't get what the hell this was all about to be honest.

Oh well. I guess I'm not the target audience :)

Actually, I think that's the only sane response to reading ANY Grant Morrison book for the first time.

[Corrina]

So if Batman dies in Final Crisis can anyone tell me what the point of RIP was?

Well, probably the overall point was to tell an interesting story. Readers can be the judge of that, though it didn't interest me. Still, Untold Legend of the Batman remains a good story, even though it's been retconned away at least twice now. What matters is if the story itself holds up, not whether Batman lived or died.

The point of the hype machine was to get everyone invested in whether Batman would live or die.

[joku2]

i just finished Reading RIP yester day and i still don't understand what was going on with Batman

[Chiroptera]

You know, it's also important to review the work on it's own terms, not just in the way it differs from the way you would have written it.

Although God knows that second one's the mark of a true writer. :tongue:

I actually tried to do just that here.

What I said in that grading was nothing to do with how I would have written it.
Believe me, if someone gave me the basic idea of RIP and told me to write it it would be far and away different than how Mr. Morrison wrote it but also very different from what I said in my grade.
That grade was how I thought the way HE wrote it could be improved.
Now I could write something on all the things I would do differently, but that would be a much longer post and really isn't the point of this topic. :smile:

[nepenthes]

whingers note the silent majority of fans with good taste and mature aged reading comprehension. it's as I've been saying the whole time, there's a reason RIP is a bestseller and the majority of comic fans are people who don't spend hours whining online about garish costumes and silver age imps

[Death by Mime]

- The Grade -
Storyline: C+
The story had potential, but it's been done. Morrison's come up with some interesting stories in the past, and he's told one's we've heard before in a way that makes them more interesting than usual. RIP was not one of those times.
We've seen Batman face an enemy that seems to be one step ahead of him.
We've seen him be defeated.
We've seen him prove he's not actually defeated.
We've seen him surrender the cowl to a protégé.
It's all been done before, and this version supposedly being a bit more permanent than other versions doesn't make it any less of a 'been there done that' storyline. I expected more when Morrison was announced as the new writer for Batman, and I was disappointed to see him rehashing the same old "Let's have Wayne stop being Batman" story.


Your criterion for something having 'been done' are so broad that I'm curious what you would deem as meriting a higher score. "We've seen him be defeated"? Well yes, and we've also seen him triumph. Have all stories where he wins in the end "been done"?

And you know, you're ignoring the parts where he is psychologically broken and reverts to a childish superhero fantasy of a backup personality and takes advice from Bat-Might, and confronts the Joker in that state and so on.

Although maybe that's been done before too, I don't know.

Continuity: A
No matter whether you loved it or hated it. Seeing Morrison use all those silver age stories and turn them into an understandable and congruent part of the modern-day Batman's exploits is an incredible thing.
Personally, I found it unnecessary and a bit of a time sink, but it's still impressive; very deserving of a top grade.


I would actually disagree with you on this one. Comics continuity - and for that matter the continuity of shared universes in general - is a completely different beast from continuity within a single story. I'd argue that those silver-age stories are so far removed from the modern incarnation of Batman that they don't affect continuity in any meaningful sense, and serve more as literary references.

To me, the continuity of the story would be better judged by, say, how well the ending synced up with the rest of the story, and whether the previous events made sense when viewed in the light of the big reveal. Personally, it pretty much came out of nowhere, but Morrison left himself enough wiggle room to say, "It was part of Batman's plan all along!" which is technically an answer, but eh.

So this one's kind of a wash for me.

Character: D
This is where the feces hit the fan, in my opinion.
Batman pretty much through his allies under the bus in the effort of engaging his "ultimate enemy." He put himself in danger, he puts his partners and comrades in danger, and he pretty much relied fully on nothing going wrong. There was no fail safe for if something DID happen poorly. For "the man who thinks of everything" Batman really didn't seem like he'd thought much of anything through in this story. He seemed like he was flying by the seat of his pants, and that seems completely contradictory to everything I've ever read about the Bat.


Hm, Batman putting himself and his allies in danger in order to fight evil? Sounds ... completely in character for Batman. I mean, I know it's unfair to keep bringing it up, but the man is on his fourth Robin by now.

And I'm really amused that you watched Batman get psychologically broken, drugged, Batcomputer hacked, Batcave broken into, attacked by henchmen, brought face to face with the Joker, poisoned, betrayed by his girlfriend, buried alive, with the villains planning to dig him out a bit later and do even more nasty stuff to him; Batman having readied a countermeasure for everything; and still claim that "he pretty much relied fully on nothing going wrong" and that he had "no fail safe for if something DID happen poorly."

I mean, what?


Then there's Damian. Seriously. What is the POINT of this character, other than to have a generic tie-in to the Al Ghul family, and for Grant to have his own personal Batman to sculpt and design as he sees fit. The character's annoying, shallow, and flat-out boring. The key to a good character, even one the audience is meant to dislike, is to give them one trait the audience can like about them; so even though they're despicable there's still some redeeming quality that makes them enjoyable to read about. Damian doesn't seem to have any such quality, he's just an irritating spoiled brat that we're supposed to accept into the Bat mythos as being here to stay and potentially being the next Robin and a future Batman.


I like him because under the bratty, sociopathic exterior, he's actually a kind of insecure kid who wants his father's approval, and was raised under a genocidal megalomaniac who wanted to kill him and possess his body. Granted, he's also still a sociopathic brat underneath, but hey. Also, he's pretty funny.

And also, dark reflection of Batman, embodiment of the privileged rich kid who likes to go out and beat criminals up for his own personal gratification, yada yada.


Turning the murder of the Wayne's into a huge conspiracy, plotted by a group of debauchery, zealot, rich folk who just so happened to KNOW that doing this in this way would ensure that the surviving son would become a super hero rather than blowing his own brains out when the depression overwhelms him?


This isn't even true?

Also, what does it have to do with characterization?

Making there be the potential for the Wayne's to have been drug addicts and for Thomas to have been trying to get his son and wife killed? It all just screams "shock value" and seems completely pointless and unnecessary to the plot.


Again, this has nothing to do with anyone's characterization except for Doctor Hurt's?

Finally we have Jezebel Jet.
Fair enough!


Comprehension: C-
[I] As I said earlier, I feel like all the tie ins to his silver age adventures were unnecessary. It was kind of amusing, but really not something that NEEDED to be done. Very few other DC heroes still have their silver age adventures in-continuity. There was no reason to bring Batman's back. But, that's Morrison's shtick. He likes to do that.
Unfortunately, it's very hard to read and appreciate a story if you're needing to go back after every issue, reference your Batman encyclopedia and use the internet just to understand the references made in the book. This is not a reader friendly scenario. You have to be a complete Batman aficionado in order to really appreciate this storyline. Heck, I AM a Batman aficionado and even I had moments where I just had to stop and go “Huh?” then go dig my Batman encyclopedia out of my collectibles just so I could understand what had be referenced or what had just happened.
If you need an encyclopedia just to appreciate the nuances of the story, the comprehension level is to high.


C'mon, the major silver-age references were limited to two stories. Robin Dies at Dawn, with the isolation chamber experiment, and the Batman of Zur-en-arrh. For the isolation chamber one, Morrison included all the pertinent flashbacks in the text itself, and the event was only important because of Morrison's retcons to it. I don't even know why you would need to read the original to appreciate R.I.P., unless you wanted to see the panel with the then-unnamed doctor's looming cross-hatched head.

The one with the Batman of Zur-en-arrh, though, I agree that reading that story was important to fully appreciate the text. And it's a fairly obscure literary allusion, I guess. But when Morrison includes 'Zur-en-arrh, zur-en-arrh', over and over in his run, with the arc stretching over several months, when there are dozens of people annotating Morrison's arc, so that all you need to do is be curious and take five seconds to google 'zur-en-arrh', I don't think this is such a massive burden on the reader.

Audience Approval: C

You know, I don't LIKE the idea of anyone besides Bruce Wayne EVER being Batman... But if it had been done in an interesting way? I'd give it a chance. I would love to see a long story arc that involved Bruce actively making the decision on his own, without any outside influence, to retire from the role of Batman. I'd have loved to have seen him come to Dick and Tim with this decision and explain that the world still needs Batman. And I'd love to see the transition as Dick (or whoever is decided to fill in) prepares to accept the mantle of the Bat and actually become Batman, not by necessity but by choice. I'd have liked to see this happen over time, progressing, with Bruce actively resuming the role of Mentor as he trains Nightwing (or Robin, or whoever) to not only do what Batman has to do, but to really BECOME Batman, to learn all the subtle nuances and differences that make Batman a different hero from Robin, Nightwing, or any of the supers they associate with. I think that would have been a very GOOD story. This was not that story, unfortunately. And it's been met with the usual mixed emotions that stories of it's ilk are met with.


Hahahaha you want one of DC's biggest icons to be retired in a carefully thought out and meaningful way with a well-managed gradual transition to his successor where everyone is respectful to each other's feelings and makes sure to communicate well with one another in order to assure than everyone is fully okay with what is going on and can adapt accordingly hahahahahaha

Seriously though, I sympathize.

[Pyro]

My biggest problem with RIP was the villains. Okay, if Morrison wanted to create new villains in Dr. Hurt and the Black Glove. I'm not even really concerned that their true identities are left ambiguous. I'm just peeved that they hardly had a motivation beyond being EVIL. They targeted Bruce for no reason other than that he is Batman. Even if Dr Hurt is the devil, that just makes his actions more blatantly evil. I find villains more interesting when they don't declare their villainy, and I feel it takes away from Bruce's struggle when he's just fighting against cardboard badguys.

Also, does the Joker now know that Batman is Bruce Wayne? Does he care? Does anyone care? I feel like this is a bigger deal than anyone has made.

[Kiryu]

I think there are some severe misconceptions going about in regards to the manner and the degree too which Bruce was prepared for the Black Glove.

First, he did not put any of his allies in harms way for the sake of getting closer to the Black Glove. He told Gordon, he told Robin, he told Alfred, Batman told everyone that there seemed to be a super criminal masterminding an organization called the Black Glove that was out to get him. This is the part of the story in which Morrison makes the reader doubt Batman. And it worked, there were people here who believed Bruce was crazy and was working against himself. So, y'know, Batman made it very clear to everyone that there was a danger. They may have doubted him on some level, but he trusted them to come through for him when the shit hit the fan, and they did. He did not put them in danger, not even close.

Next, he wasn't simply prepared for the exact attack method the Black Glove used. He was just prepared for everything. And for me, when we learned of his preparations it all fall into place in a way where it wouldn't make sense if Batman HADN'T had countermeasures in place for this. The Penthouse Bat-Cave is an existing piece of Batman-Lore, Morrison even has us go to the Penthouse once in an earlier issue. Batman having an override to Gotham, again, makes beyond perfect sense for the character. This is the man who had files to take down the Justice League, it would be out of character for him to NOT have such a way to override Gotham. As for it being in the Bat-Radia, lest we forget ZEA Batman beats the location of the Black Glove's "Danse Macabre" from Charlie Caligula and likely converted the Bat-Radia before heading in.

@pyro

The Joker knowing is not a big deal. Joker is Batman's villain, not Bruce Wayne. He has no concern with the mask behind the Cowl.

[Chiroptera]

Replying to Death by Mime
Forgive me, I'm not going to quite all the stuff back because... Well because it's annoying and will take up to much space and I like to try and keep my posts as short as I can.


Regarding Storyline
Simple answer is: It's all been done before.
This is, admittedly, one of those things where there is likely just no pleasing people.
Particularly when it comes to a character like Batman it's VERY hard to come up with anything original, but I did give an example of something I'd personally have found more original than what we got.

I agree with the end of your post, what I wanted is just down right laughable. I don't think there is any conceivable way that we could ever get a good, well written, well thought out, and cleverly presented story of Batman retiring in any logical manner or passing on the mantle in a way that doesn't seem contrived, forced, or just a demand of the situation. Still, if we DID see such a story it would certainly be more original than yet another “Bad guys figured things out, I'm compromised, someone else needs to take over.”
I'm just flat out SICK of that, and not just in Batman, that goes for any super hero.

Now, If that DIDN'T stop Batman, that would interest me. I think there have been a couple what-if stories like that, but I think someone like Morrison could write such a scenario in an interesting manner. I particularly think he'd do a good job of showing the psychological effect it would have on Bruce if he dropped the civilian side of his existence completely.
If he'd actually responded by staging Bruce Wayne's death, completely doing away with that identity and becoming only Batman, that I'd be more interested in reading. Another Batman retires and Dick/Tim/Johnny Random takes the mantle doesn't interest me.

Regarding Continuity
I guess this one comes down simple to a matter of opinion.
I stated already that I think making the silver-age stories come back into modern continuity is just plain ridiculous and unnecessary, but that's the kind've bizarre crap Morrison likes to put in his stories so I anticipated that from the beginning. Given the nature of it, I think he did it well.

Characterization
This one comes down to the reader point of view more than anything else.
Batman: In recent stories, pre-Morrison's take over, the Batman I'd been reading about seemed to be outgrowing that tendency of putting his friends in jeopardy in order to further his mission. He seemed to have become more of a team player and began to care more about the people around him. That all went the way of the dodo when Grant took over the book and for that I harbor some personal resentment, since I was really starting to like the new Batman I was being introduced to who was willing to work with others, see others view points, and cared more about the well being of people rather than just the obsessive mission of stopping crime.

Damian: Again, personal opinion. I think he's the worst new character to be introduced in any comic I read in the past decade; a horrid waste of space who should be retconned out of existence as soon as editorially possible.

Jezebel Jet: Hey, at least we agree on something. :tongue:

“Turning the murder of the Wayne's into a huge conspiracy, plotted by a group of debauchery, zealot, rich folk who just so happened to KNOW that doing this in this way would ensure that the surviving son would become a super hero rather than blowing his own brains out when the depression overwhelms him?”

“This isn't even true?
Also, what does it have to do with characterization?”

One of the plot points as RIP began was this secret information being turned over to the Comissioner and the Mayor about Martha and Thomas having been far less than the pillars of goodness that the city has believed them to be for so long. As the story continued speculation as given to suggest the two may have actually been members of the Black Glove, and then insinuating that Tom orchestrated an assassination of Martha and faked his own death.
It then shifted into the idea that Hurt was in fact Thomas Wayne, and continued on (as Batman himself determined) to suggest that everything that transpired that fateful night was pre-planned, orchestrated and set up to ensure that Batman would be born on the night the Wayne's were killed. The entire thing was suggested to be a plot by the Black Glove in order to create some incredible do gooder just so that the organization could get some amusement in utterly destroying everything he stood for.

As to what it has to do with characterization? Well... Thomas and Martha are characters, dead ones, but characters none the less and I personally found this aspect of the story just a little to contrived and tasteless. In addition, if any of it turns out to be true and Martha was a drugged up woman who slept around with Alfred, and Thomas was a corrupt doctor who hired a killer to 86 his wife, that drastically altars the foundation of who Batman/Bruce Wayne is and what he stands for. Again, changing someones characterization.

Now, my grading regarding this is impacted heavilly by how I learned to write.
This is a touchy subject for writers. It all depends on the writer, how they grew up, how they were taught about writing, where they were schooled in it, etc.
Personally, I never approve of taking the original creators origin story and rewriting it, under any circumstances. I don't care of the creators dead, I don't care if they signed away their licensing and creative writers; and it doesn't matter matter whether it's a comic, a novel or a Saturday morning cartoon.
I find it incredibly distasteful and insulting to the source material and original creator, especially if said creator is dead and cannot give his opinion of a revising the character's origin, to change that origin and back story.
Other writers and people in generally will certainly feel differently, but that's my stand on it, and it certainly affected the characterization grade considerably.


Regarding Comprehension
Again, difference of opinion. There's really nothing more I can say to this one than what I've already said. It didn't bother you, it did bother me, simple as that.


As I've said in previous topics: I'm pleased others are enjoying Morrison's work, more power to them, but in this thread we were asked to review and grade RIP and Morrison's run and that's what I did. Whether you agree with my assessment or not doesn't really have any impact whatsoever on what I've thought of Morrison's Batman work.

[Pyro]

@pyro

The Joker knowing is not a big deal. Joker is Batman's villain, not Bruce Wayne. He has no concern with the mask behind the Cowl.See, I've read stories in the past where the opposite is true, but I can see how that might be the case currently. I just feel like if the Joker were smart, he would use that information to cause more chaos.

[Death by Mime]

Regarding Continuity
I guess this one comes down simple to a matter of opinion.
I stated already that I think making the silver-age stories come back into modern continuity is just plain ridiculous and unnecessary, but that's the kind've bizarre crap Morrison likes to put in his stories so I anticipated that from the beginning. Given the nature of it, I think he did it well.


Um, did you read my response to this? I was arguing that the silver-age stories are so far removed that they have virtually nothing to do with the modern Batman. It's like .. um, a modern Tarzan story that makes reference to him being a racist serial killer, which he was in his original incarnation. It's a well-researched literary reference, but it hardly counts as continuity anymore. And it would be weird to give it an 'A' on that account.


One of the plot points as RIP began was this secret information being turned over to the Comissioner and the Mayor about Martha and Thomas having been far less than the pillars of goodness that the city has believed them to be for so long. As the story continued speculation as given to suggest the two may have actually been members of the Black Glove, and then insinuating that Tom orchestrated an assassination of Martha and faked his own death.
It then shifted into the idea that Hurt was in fact Thomas Wayne, and continued on (as Batman himself determined) to suggest that everything that transpired that fateful night was pre-planned, orchestrated and set up to ensure that Batman would be born on the night the Wayne's were killed. The entire thing was suggested to be a plot by the Black Glove in order to create some incredible do gooder just so that the organization could get some amusement in utterly destroying everything he stood for.

As to what it has to do with characterization? Well... Thomas and Martha are characters, dead ones, but characters none the less and I personally found this aspect of the story just a little to contrived and tasteless. In addition, if any of it turns out to be true and Martha was a drugged up woman who slept around with Alfred, and Thomas was a corrupt doctor who hired a killer to 86 his wife, that drastically altars the foundation of who Batman/Bruce Wayne is and what he stands for. Again, changing someones characterization.


But I mean, literally, none of that is true. Nothing about the Waynes' debauchery was definitively proven either way. And by the ending, it's pretty heavily implied that Dr. Hurt faked the whole thing just to f*ck with Batman some more.


Regarding Storyline
Simple answer is: It's all been done before.
This is, admittedly, one of those things where there is likely just no pleasing people.
Particularly when it comes to a character like Batman it's VERY hard to come up with anything original, but I did give an example of something I'd personally have found more original than what we got.

I agree with the end of your post, what I wanted is just down right laughable. I don't think there is any conceivable way that we could ever get a good, well written, well thought out, and cleverly presented story of Batman retiring in any logical manner or passing on the mantle in a way that doesn't seem contrived, forced, or just a demand of the situation. Still, if we DID see such a story it would certainly be more original than yet another “Bad guys figured things out, I'm compromised, someone else needs to take over.”
I'm just flat out SICK of that, and not just in Batman, that goes for any super hero.


You've honestly got me thinking with this one. Has there ever been a major character shake-up that was accomplished by everyone taking their time with the transition period and making sure everyone was ready? It seems like such a novel idea! I can't think of any instances, but surely, surely someone must have thought to do it before?

Wow, this is depressing. Ah, comic books.