Naruto: Kakashi (Gaiden) or Sasuke (Pre-timeskip)?

[jasminegreen]

Hi. My friend and I were talking about this not long ago and I wanted to see what anyone else thinks. Now, if you've read the Kakashi Gaiden, then you know how Kakashi acted when he was thirteen. And, anyone that watches the show knows how Sasuke was pre-timeskip. Now from looking at the two, which do you think was more arrogant, or had the worse attitude? I think Sasuke, but my friend thinks Kakashi was way worse. I just wanted to get some more opinions from people.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Kakashi was kind of a jerk but his heart was in the right place.

Sasuke is a selfish bastard borderlining on being a villain at times.

[lokisedge]

Kakashi, he thought he was the best and despised his friends help all the time. He was the quessintial douche bag.

Sasuke even if he was arrogant, accepted and helped Naruto and Sakura through tough times and put his life on the line for them more than once. He even complimented his friends, Kakashi did no such thing for Obito and Rin.

[Miburohunter929]

Kakashi, he thought he was the best and despised his friends help all the time. He was the quessintial douche bag.

Sasuke even if he was arrogant, accepted and helped Naruto and Sakura through tough times and put his life on the line for them more than once. He even complimented his friends, Kakashi did no such thing for Obito and Rin.

I dont know....We don't get alot of time with Kakashi. One Book/Chapter/Gaiden/Whatever may be enough to establish his personality, but not to give him as much of an indepth look as with Sasuke.

All we know is that he puts the mission above all, which considering how his dad got dissed, you can't really blame him.

I'd say he was pretty cold, but no more so then Neji, or Sasuke before he warmed up to naruto.

He also managed to get over that by the time the Gaiden was done, while Sasuke became darker and darker during the Mangas progression, the Sound 4 arc being the last straw.

I'd say Chunnin Exam and Land of Waves Sasuke was a nicer guy then Gaiden Kakashi, but after that point he loses in a big way.

[arp2008]

Hi. My friend and I were talking about this not long ago and I wanted to see what anyone else thinks. Now, if you've read the Kakashi Gaiden, then you know how Kakashi acted when he was thirteen. And, anyone that watches the show knows how Sasuke was pre-timeskip. Now from looking at the two, which do you think was more arrogant, or had the worse attitude? I think Sasuke, but my friend thinks Kakashi was way worse. I just wanted to get some more opinions from people. Before reading your post I thought you wee asking about which story was worse, for niether is bad and are in fact exceptionally well done. You might want to re-word you question. Anyway, between Sasuke and Kakashi in the respective times periods your asking about, Kakashi was indeed the bigger a-hole.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Before reading your post I thought you wee asking about which story was worse, for niether is bad and are in fact exceptionally well done. You might want to re-word you question. Anyway, between Sasuke and Kakashi in the respective times periods your asking about, Kakashi was indeed the bigger a-hole.Kakashi didn't stab his friends in the chest with an A-rank assassination technique. He sacrificed his left eye to save them.

[arp2008]

Kakashi didn't stab his friends in the chest with an A-rank assassination technique. He sacrificed his left eye to save them. Naruto was foolishly standing in the way of an opponent irreperably morally and mentally twited. Sasuke went threw mammothly more trauma and minipulation by the likesof Oro and Itachi while Kakashi had only suffered the loss of his father. My point being Sasuke was pratically bread to become what he is now through little no fault of his own, whereas Kakashi's stubbornness was of his own will even with scolding by the 4th to change his pragmatic way of thought. Now, while Sasuke was similarly scolded by Kakashi, he was under much more stess with Itachi's taunting, Oro's promise of strength, and some idot kid who he thought became stronger then him despite possesing superoir bloodline. To sum it all up, Kakashi's haughty attitude is almost innate, whereas Sasuke's assholeishness (I know it's not a word, but whatever) through external sources and inner conflict which makes the former the bigger asshole.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Naruto was foolishly standing in the way of an opponent irreperably morally and mentally twited. Sasuke went threw mammothly more trauma and minipulation by the likesof Oro and Itachi while Kakashi had only suffered the loss of his father. My point being Sasuke was pratically bread to become what he is now through little no fault of his own, whereas Kakashi's stubbornness was of his own will even with scolding by the 4th to change his pragmatic way of thought. Now, while Sasuke was similarly scolded by Kakashi, he was under much more stess with Itachi's taunting, Oro's promise of strength, and some idot kid who he thought became stronger then him despite possesing superoir bloodline. To sum it all up, Kakashi's haughty attitude is almost innate, whereas Sasuke's assholeishness (I know it's not a word, but whatever) through external sources and inner conflict which makes the former the bigger asshole.It's not like Kakashi's life was a happy day at the park either you know.

His father killed himself and was considered a failure by the village for going against orders. This made Kakashi an introverted person similar to how Sasuke's trauma affected him. The difference is that while Sasuke focused on revenging his family Kakashi focused on becoming a by the rules ninja. He took his work extremely seriously and had to grow up even faster than Sasuke because of the war that was going on, he became a chunnin at the age of six. It was only natural that he would look down on a person like Obito who was a big goofball most of the time.

What I'm trying to say is that Kakashi's action at the age of twelve were caused by external factors. Just like Sasuke, just different. In all honesty we can't really judge them on anything but opinions.

Basically it all boils down to their most assholeish acts.

For Kakashi it was to abandon Rin and continue with the mission they had been given.
For Sasuke it was stabbing Naruto through the heart, not knowing that he'd heal.

I think that Sasuke's act was more assholeish. But that's my opinion.

[arp2008]

It's not like Kakashi's life was a happy day at the park either you know.

His father killed himself and was considered a failure by the village for going against orders. This made Kakashi an introverted person similar to how Sasuke's trauma affected him. The difference is that while Sasuke focused on revenging his family Kakashi focused on becoming a by the rules ninja. He took his work extremely seriously and had to grow up even faster than Sasuke because of the war that was going on, he became a chunnin at the age of six. It was only natural that he would look down on a person like Obito who was a big goofball most of the time.

What I'm trying to say is that Kakashi's action at the age of twelve were caused by external factors. Just like Sasuke, just different. In all honesty we can't really judge them on anything but opinions.

Basically it all boils down to their most assholeish acts.

For Kakashi it was to abandon Rin and continue with the mission they had been given.
For Sasuke it was stabbing Naruto through the heart, not knowing that he'd heal.

I think that Sasuke's act was more assholeish. But that's my opinion.You honestly think that compare Sasuke's childhood and time with Team 7? Do really need to make a list of how f*cked up Sasuke's life is? Do I really?

[Guy1]

For Sasuke it was stabbing Naruto through the heart, not knowing that he'd heal.

I think that Sasuke's act was more assholeish.

Same here. Especially considering he was smiling like a smug ass the whole time.
Best Friend, sure.

[Guy1]

Edited, sorry for going overboard.

[arp2008]

Oh please.:rolleyes:
He came home from school and found his ass of a big brother had slaughtered his entire family, then mind raped him.
After that, he stays in the village to train. Oh, what's that? That's right, the same village that was kissing his ass 24/7.
ALL the girls in the village, with the exception of Hinata (The only sensible one.) were lusting after him. ALL the other guys except Naruto thought he was god.
ALL the adults kissed his ass and admired him for being an Uchiha. Kakashi gave him training and him alone. Remember the Chunin exams? Remember how the f-ing KAGE was bending the rules to allow him to take his sweet time to get there whereas if ANYONE who wasn't Sasuke had tried that stunt, they would have been disqualified. So what was so bad? Oh noooooooooo, he got a cursed seal, the horrors!:rolleyes:
Then Itachi shows up and beats him up and mind rapes him again. Bad yes, but Sasuke blew the whole thing out of proportion.
Remember his response to Naruto, his supposed best friend, who risked his life to bring back the woman who could heal him? "Let's fight punk."
THEN, when he sees that Naruto's rasengan is more powerful then his chidori, he runs away to angst about it. Kakashi tries to talk to him about it, and Sasuke's response? "Maybe if I killed everyone you loved you'd understand my pain!"
Real mature.

Then Orochimaru's guys show up and give him an offer to gain more power with no work. Sasuke joins them and we know the story from there.






His family died, big f-ing deal, there are allot of other characters in Manga with crappy pasts that dealt with it, grew a damn spine, and didn't run away from it. Sasuke made his life crappy, it's his own damn fault. LOL I'm just going to laugh at that because its not even worth argueing. No matter how you try to water it down the fact remains that Sasuke's youth was far worse than Kakashi's making Kakashi the bigger a-hole.

[jasminegreen]

I think Sasuke is worse. Sasuke just seemed to be arrogant and mad at the world. Kakashi's actions were more understandable, and truth be it, Kakashi would've had more reason to go bad than Sasuke. Kakashi became the ideal ninja and carried out missions for a village who's responsible for his father commiting Seppukku. Kakashi may have been willing to abandon a comrade, but at least he, unlike Sasuke, never tried to kill them himself. Like a poster already said, Sasuke got all this respect and special treatmeant because of who he was. Sasuke lived in a condo. He had all these girls after, and all these guys that look up to him. He also had a sensei, Kakashi, who did nothing but give him all this praise special attention, and pretty much did nothing but kiss his ass. I don't think Kakashi had those privilages, since the village thought that his father was a discrace, and probably thought that Kakashi would be just like him. Kakashi had to work exra hard to regain the honor that his father lost, so chances are, Kakashi didn't get much respect. Kakashi wasn't an ass to Obito, he just thought Obito was an idiot, yet he gets all this praise because of the Clan that he's from. Sasuke was just an asshole to Naruto for no reason.

[Dark Soul # 7]

LOL I'm just going to laugh at that because its not even worth argueing. No matter how you try to water it down the fact remains that Sasuke's youth was far worse than Kakashi's making Kakashi the bigger a-hole.But what Sasuke did was way worse than what Kakashi did. No matter how you blame all the bad shit in Sasuke's life he still had loads of good things going for him at the same time.

He made a choice to betray his friends and his village for his own wants and needs. Kakashi at least did what he did out of duty. And he got better. Sasuke got worse.

[GrampaGen]

Depends on the story arc.

I felt Sasuke up to the Chuunin exams was much more of a team player than kid Kakashi.

One of his first major actions on their first mission was to bail out Naruto after it seemed Kakashi got axed by the demon brothers. Sure, he made fun of him for freezing after, but after that they still trained together, and the he took shots from Haku for him.

He also bailed out Naruto from an incident against the Sand trio, fought off Orochimaru when his teammates hit a wall against him, and pushed himself to his limit trying to take out Gaara.

Post mindrape Sasuke was a dick, but he was also very mentally unhinged.

Kakashi also had way less screentime so his development period was rather rapid. He did take every opportunity to chastise Obito for everything, however.

So in general, Current Sasuke > Kid Kakashi > Pre-Tsukiyomi Sasuke in the department of dickery.

[GrampaGen]

His family died, big f-ing deal, there are allot of other characters in Manga with crappy pasts that dealt with it, grew a damn spine, and didn't run away from it. Sasuke made his life crappy, it's his own damn fault.

...you know, I'm not exactly fond of the Sasuke worship either, but a polarized argument in the opposite direction is just as bad, Guy.

To the bolded, that's...pretty unnecessarily cold.

Yes, his family died. As a result, do you really think his decisions were made with sound rationality?

[Guy1]

...you know, I'm not exactly fond of the Sasuke worship either, but a polarized argument in the opposite direction is just as bad, Guy.

To the bolded, that's...pretty unnecessarily cold.

Yes, his family died. As a result, do you really think his decisions were made with sound rationality?

Okay I admit I crossed the line there and I'm sorry, but my point stands that he made his life harder then it could have been.

[lokisedge]

^Not really, his brother and danzou made marks on him so he would act like an total asshole.

Oh and for the entirety of your arguements, Sasuke didn't care about anything but what his brother did to him, you can't blame him since Sasuke put his pride for the Uchiha's before anything else. Sasuke also was influenced by the Cursed Seal, so it's justified he stabbed Naruto.

[jasminegreen]

^Not really, his brother and danzou made marks on him so he would act like an total asshole.

Oh and for the entirety of your arguements, Sasuke didn't care about anything but what his brother did to him, you can't blame him since Sasuke put his pride for the Uchiha's before anything else. Sasuke also was influenced by the Cursed Seal, so it's justified he stabbed Naruto.

If that's the case, then Kakashi can't be blamed for his actions in the Gaiden.

[lokisedge]

If that's the case, then Kakashi can't be blamed for his actions in the Gaiden.But since Sasuke is so notorious, you voted for him anyway. It's just human nature to vote Sasuke as the most flawed of the two, he's so hated and despised by everyone he never gets the benefit of the doubt compared to real true scumbags in this manga.

[Miburohunter929]

But since Sasuke is so notorious, you voted for him anyway. It's just human nature to vote Sasuke as the most flawed of the two, he's so hated and despised by everyone he never gets the benefit of the doubt compared to real true scumbags in this manga.

If that's the case, then Kakashi can't be blamed for his actions in the Gaiden.

Eh, if we're going with the "Everyone had a trauma and no one can be blamed for their actions" route, then whose the scumbag?

Sasori's pop was killed by Sakumo, and his mom was dead, he became mentally unhinged and started making people puppets, and joined Akatsuki for..something.

We're not gonna excuse him, are we?

Zabuza was brought up in a village so insane they had you murder your classmates as seven year olds to become Genin. Does that excuse anything he's done?

That's ignoring the huge ass civil war or whatever they have.

Orochimarus desire to live forever and get every jutsu was caused by his desire to see his parents after they got murdered and because of some offhand comment by Sandaime.

Kazuku's start of darkness was when he was severely punished for losing to Shodai, and he got pissed of at being treated so horribly.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but at some point, personal responsiblity plays a part.


Yes, Sasuke had a horrible, horrible, trauma, and it plays a massive role in all his actions, but that dosnt automatically give him a pass then any member of Akatsuki, or any antagonist that had a really, really bad day.

It makes them more sympathetic, not makes it okay to do dickish things.

If Neji had killed Hinata, I'd still say it was a horrible thing to do, despite him having a pretty legit chip on his shoulder.

Which isn't to say Sasuke or Kakashi didnt, but still.

Although, thinking about it, the most Kakashi did as a kid was give lectures and stick to the rules.

Honestly, Sasuke loses this competetion any point after the Chunnin Exams, which is right when he started going over the edge.

I dont see how we couldn't say Sasuke to be the more flawed. The village shamed Kakashi dad so much he killed himself. Even his friends dissed him.

The most he did at Sasukes age was become an awesome ninja prodigy who followes the rules and lectures Obito.

Sasuke got his village wiped out by his brother and Madara. Which is more sucky, but atleast he had the advantage of not having his family name shamed and such. Infact, he was kinda popular.

But that's not my point. Kakashi, before the time skip had better reasons for ditching the village then Sasuke.

These people drove his father to /kill himself/.

Before even knowing the true history of the Uchiha Massacre,
Sasuke deserted the village and joined one terrorist who just tried to destroy the village not to long ago, and nearly murdered his best friend. And that's ignoring the timeskip stuff in which he trades one terrorist group for another, basically, and intends to fully destroy the leaf.

I'm not saying I dont understand it, but I'm not sure why it's so bad to think Kakashi> Sasuke in this regard.

[lokisedge]

Eh, if we're going with the "Everyone had a trauma and no one can be blamed for their actions" route, then whose the scumbag?

Sasori's pop was killed by Sakumo, and his mom was dead, he became mentally unhinged and started making people puppets, and joined Akatsuki for..something.

We're not gonna excuse him, are we?

Zabuza was brought up in a village so insane they had you murder your classmates as seven year olds to become Genin. Does that excuse anything he's done?

That's ignoring the huge ass civil war or whatever they have.

Orochimarus desire to live forever and get every jutsu was caused by his desire to see his parents after they got murdered and because of some offhand comment by Sandaime.

Kazuku's start of darkness was when he was severely punished for losing to Shodai, and he got pissed of at being treated so horribly.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but at some point, personal responsiblity plays a part.


Yes, Sasuke had a horrible, horrible, trauma, and it plays a massive role in all his actions, but that dosnt automatically give him a pass then any member of Akatsuki, or any antagonist that had a really, really bad day.

It makes them more sympathetic, not makes it okay to do dickish things.

If Neji had killed Hinata, I'd still say it was a horrible thing to do, despite him having a pretty legit chip on his shoulder.

Which isn't to say Sasuke or Kakashi didnt, but still.

Although, thinking about it, the most Kakashi did as a kid was give lectures and stick to the rules.

Honestly, Sasuke loses this competetion any point after the Chunnin Exams, which is right when he started going over the edge.

I dont see how we couldn't say Sasuke to be the more flawed. The village shamed Kakashi dad so much he killed himself. Even his friends dissed him.

The most he did at Sasukes age was become an awesome ninja prodigy who followes the rules and lectures Obito.

Sasuke got his village wiped out by his brother and Madara. Which is more sucky, but atleast he had the advantage of not having his family name shamed and such. Infact, he was kinda popular.

But that's not my point. Kakashi, before the time skip had better reasons for ditching the village then Sasuke.

These people drove his father to /kill himself/.

Before even knowing the true history of the Uchiha Massacre,
Sasuke deserted the village and joined one terrorist who just tried to destroy the village not to long ago, and nearly murdered his best friend. And that's ignoring the timeskip stuff in which he trades one terrorist group for another, basically, and intends to fully destroy the leaf.

I'm not saying I dont understand it, but I'm not sure why it's so bad to think Kakashi> Sasuke in this regard.These points need to be addressed.


Firstly, it's not like Sasuke choose this path, he was lead and crafted to follow this shit when Orochimaru came and bit him the CS. Then at that moment, Sasuke's trauma came into fruition and gave him the influence to seek power. He couldn't escape it, Itachi set him up to find the awnsers of his clans extintion, the popularity, the love, and the respect was a set by his brother to fool everyone that Sasuke was the real true enemy. Sasuke would have left the village anyway even if he ignored everyone's attempt to get him to brake his bonds, because eventually Sasuke would have found out and still carry out all this hatred towards konoha and his brother.

Secondly, everyone wants Sasuke. For his sharigan, his penis or his battle prowess. This takes a toll on the dude, so cut him some slack. You'd think he take it slightly, but alas people just won't leave him be.

Thirdly, the sound 4 was trying to kidnap Sasuke, by Oro's orders. Sasuke had no choice, not only did they beat him up, but they twist logic in order for him to join Oro and the curse seal to be commanded to his whim.

You can't make Sasuke into a bad guy because everything he's done was provockative by every bad guy tied to him.

[Miburohunter929]

These points need to be addressed.


Firstly, it's not like Sasuke choose this path, he was lead and crafted to follow this shit when Orochimaru came and bit him the CS. Then at that moment, Sasuke's trauma came into fruition and gave him the influence to seek power. He couldn't escape it, Itachi set him up to find the awnsers of his clans extintion, the popularity, the love, and the respect was a set by his brother to fool everyone that Sasuke was the real true enemy. Sasuke would have left the village anyway even if he ignored everyone's attempt to get him to brake his bonds, because eventually Sasuke would have found out and still carry out all this hatred towards konoha and his brother.

Secondly, everyone wants Sasuke. For his sharigan, his penis or his battle prowess. This takes a toll on the dude, so cut him some slack. You'd think he take it slightly, but alas people just won't leave him be.

Thirdly, the sound 4 was trying to kidnap Sasuke, by Oro's orders. Sasuke had no choice, not only did they beat him up, but they twist logic in order for him to join Oro and the curse seal to be commanded to his whim.

You can't make Sasuke into a bad guy because everything he's done was provockative by every bad guy tied to him.

I dont think Sasuke's quite as weak minded as your saying. Sure, he's a victim, but you make it sound like he didnt have any say in all of the matters, and that he was more or less so submissive he couldnt refuse.

You're more or less painting him as /only/ a victim, and while he is one, he's not only that. He can refuse and tell people to go die.

Which he did, on several occasions, before changing his mind. He fought Oro after Naruto punched him and tossed out a speech, and he clearly told the Sound 4 to eat shit and die before the mentioned one Itachi Uchiha.

And the Sound 4 /didnt/ kidnap him though. They fought him, made a quip about Itachi and Sasuke needed to do more pushups, then he punched out Sakura and left after thinking over thier offer.

As for the clan extinction thing, I disagree. Itachi is the guy who told Sasuke for years he solo'd the clan, then when Itachi admitted to having an accomplish after Sasuke called him on bullshit....

Well, he rigged Sasukes eyes to set said Accomplis on fire. Had it been a few inches to the left, Madara would be on fire. I'd say that, combined with Itachis MO, makes it more likely he wanted Madara quiet as the grave.

AKA, Dead, with all that shit secret, and Madara says as much. If Madara died, Sasuke wouldn't be after Konoha.

Not to mention, I dont know what Sasuke plans to do with Madara, and how helping him fufil his goals to be a good idea.

I mean, he's so focused on Konoha, he's completely ignoring the guy who actually helped kill his clan cause he couldn't take rejection.

As for going to kill Itachi... If he snuck out and killed Itachi, as a leaf nin, I serious doubt he'd get any real punishment.

Itachi was already seen as a traitor, the guy who killed his family, and as a missing nin, ninja are supposed to kill him.

Kakashi was worried for what would happen to him psychologically, not because killing criminals is against the rules.

If he had just went out and killed Itachi, the consequences would be low, or non-existant in comparison to joining a terrorist and then killing Itachi.


And it's not like Sasuke was being blackmailed or dragged out the village kicking and screaming. The Sound Four left, and told him where to meet them.

I find it hard to believe he couldn't just tell Kakashi what happenend, and then if they came back again, they'd be in shit.

I mean, sure, the Sound 4 are good, but they are not a Kimmimaro, nor a Pain. They aren't gonna destroy a whole village by themselves. I'd wager that if some Genin and Chunin could take them, they arn't gonna be that hard to dispatch.

But he didnt tell /anyone/.

[Guy1]

I dont think Sasuke's quite as weak minded as your saying. Sure, he's a victim, but you make it sound like he didnt have any say in all of the matters, and that he was more or less so submissive he couldnt refuse.

You're more or less painting him as /only/ a victim, and while he is one, he's not only that. He can refuse and tell people to go die.

Which he did, on several occasions, before changing his mind. He fought Oro after Naruto punched him and tossed out a speech, and he clearly told the Sound 4 to eat shit and die before the mentioned one Itachi Uchiha.

And the Sound 4 /didnt/ kidnap him though. They fought him, made a quip about Itachi and Sasuke needed to do more pushups, then he punched out Sakura and left after thinking over thier offer.

As for the clan extinction thing, I disagree. Itachi is the guy who told Sasuke for years he solo'd the clan, then when Itachi admitted to having an accomplish after Sasuke called him on bullshit....

Well, he rigged Sasukes eyes to set said Accomplis on fire. Had it been a few inches to the left, Madara would be on fire. I'd say that, combined with Itachis MO, makes it more likely he wanted Madara quiet as the grave.

AKA, Dead, with all that shit secret, and Madara says as much. If Madara died, Sasuke wouldn't be after Konoha.

Not to mention, I dont know what Sasuke plans to do with Madara, and how helping him fufil his goals to be a good idea.

I mean, he's so focused on Konoha, he's completely ignoring the guy who actually helped kill his clan cause he couldn't take rejection.

As for going to kill Itachi... If he snuck out and killed Itachi, as a leaf nin, I serious doubt he'd get any real punishment.

Itachi was already seen as a traitor, the guy who killed his family, and as a missing nin, ninja are supposed to kill him.

Kakashi was worried for what would happen to him psychologically, not because killing criminals is against the rules.

If he had just went out and killed Itachi, the consequences would be low, or non-existant in comparison to joining a terrorist and then killing Itachi.


And it's not like Sasuke was being blackmailed or dragged out the village kicking and screaming. The Sound Four left, and told him where to meet them.

I find it hard to believe he couldn't just tell Kakashi what happenend, and then if they came back again, they'd be in shit.

I mean, sure, the Sound 4 are good, but they are not a Kimmimaro, nor a Pain. They aren't gonna destroy a whole village by themselves. I'd wager that if some Genin and Chunin could take them, they arn't gonna be that hard to dispatch.

But he didnt tell /anyone/.

Those two Jounin guys fought the Sound 4 off screen, and they were later talking about how they needed the Curse Seals to beat them.
OTOH, those dudes had like no feats so......

I agree with the rest.

[Miburohunter929]

Those two Jounin guys fought the Sound 4 off screen, and they were later talking about how they needed the Curse Seals to beat them.
OTOH, those dudes had like no feats so......

I agree with the rest.

Keep in mind they were already tired from having a mission or something, when they ran into the Sound 4, if memory serves.

The Sound 4 still needed to go all out and were so tired they needed to rest.

[lokisedge]

I dont think Sasuke's quite as weak minded as your saying. Sure, he's a victim, but you make it sound like he didnt have any say in all of the matters, and that he was more or less so submissive he couldnt refuse.The difference between him simply refusing and him being mislead and provoked is the events that happened to him that allowed him to lose control. Itachi came back, he got mind raped, then he was healed when Tsunade came back to the village with Naruto, so after that he started doubt his power because of what Itachi did to him, and afterwards challenged Naruto which he lost the fight when Sasuke found out Naruto's ransangan was better than his chidori. Sasuke's ego and self conscious was ruined the second Itachi came into the village, and the CS didn't help either since it was sucking his chakra like a lolipop. Sasuke had became a total wreck and had the justifiable events that happened to him to ruin his common sense.

You're more or less painting him as /only/ a victim, and while he is one, he's not only that. He can refuse and tell people to go die.But when his ego, his self awareness, his pride go to hell when shit starts happening to him by getting bit a Enzyme and being Tsukuyomi'd by his ambition, how can he? He was at a crossroads when Orochimaru came and faced him and Naruto and Sakura in the forrest of death. He's a victim trought and trough because Itachi started this whole mess and told him to seek him for the fact that he would evolve into the Sasuke we know today.

Which he did, on several occasions, before changing his mind. He fought Oro after Naruto punched him and tossed out a speech, and he clearly told the Sound 4 to eat shit and die before the mentioned one Itachi Uchiha.Sasuke never took Naruto seriously before, he still was messed up even when he realized Naruto was helping him out of that. Sasuke was still bit by the snake sannin, he was tainted and was on a course to vengence.

And the Sound 4 /didnt/ kidnap him though. They fought him, made a quip about Itachi and Sasuke needed to do more pushups, then he punched out Sakura and left after thinking over thier offer.They still provoked Sasuke and was forcing him to change his opinions by their own leader. They were to retrive Sasuke by Oro, this was not a coicidence.

As for the clan extinction thing, I disagree. Itachi is the guy who told Sasuke for years he solo'd the clan, then when Itachi admitted to having an accomplish after Sasuke called him on bullshit....Sasuke was obviously in the dark when that happened, but he grew up and became smarter over three years.

Well, he rigged Sasukes eyes to set said Accomplis on fire. Had it been a few inches to the left, Madara would be on fire. I'd say that, combined with Itachis MO, makes it more likely he wanted Madara quiet as the grave.So? It doesn't justify Itachi leaving Sasuke in the dark believing he was scum.

AKA, Dead, with all that shit secret, and Madara says as much. If Madara died, Sasuke wouldn't be after Konoha.Obviously Sasuke isn't ready to face Madara until he's reach his potential.

Not to mention, I dont know what Sasuke plans to do with Madara, and how helping him fufil his goals to be a good idea.Sasuke is obviously going to kill him, Sasuke said he couldn't do things Itachi's way, he was going to restre the uchiha's his own way.

I mean, he's so focused on Konoha, he's completely ignoring the guy who actually helped kill his clan cause he couldn't take rejection.Sasuke knows that Madara is the full cause of his clans extention, he's deceving Madara dude. He knows that Itachi died for them but it was Madara who started this shit to begin with.

As for going to kill Itachi... If he snuck out and killed Itachi, as a leaf nin, I serious doubt he'd get any real punishment.But he would have acted without any orders anyway.

Itachi was already seen as a traitor, the guy who killed his family, and as a missing nin, ninja are supposed to kill him.By the same bastards who ordered him to kill the Uchiha clans therefore tainting his hands to blame and decieving the villagers to think Itachi was scum when he was only following their orders.

Kakashi was worried for what would happen to him psychologically, not because killing criminals is against the rules.Kakashi doesn't know that Itachi was acting on orders and at a whim spared Sasuke, at this point, Kakashi is wrong, because Sasuke deserves every once of revenge he can get.

If he had just went out and killed Itachi, the consequences would be low, or non-existant in comparison to joining a terrorist and then killing Itachi.But what if he found out that Itachi was lying to him, would the outcome be different? No. He still would feel lonely, betrayed and heart broken. So now, Sasuke would just be carrying his brothers death on his conscious killing him with his innocence and would still seek revenge on the elders, theres no escaping it.


And it's not like Sasuke was being blackmailed or dragged out the village kicking and screaming. The Sound Four left, and told him where to meet them.They kicked his ass, wouldn't let him escape and just talked shit to him, what would you do?

I find it hard to believe he couldn't just tell Kakashi what happenend, and then if they came back again, they'd be in shitA man never sntiches on others because he's to weak to settle his problems, it's un manly.

I mean, sure, the Sound 4 are good, but they are not a Kimmimaro, nor a Pain. They aren't gonna destroy a whole village by themselves. I'd wager that if some Genin and Chunin could take them, they arn't gonna be that hard to dispatch.

But he didnt tell /anyone/.They seeked Sasuke, not genins or chunnins. And since Sasuke was un armed and unstable, he was at a crossroads.

[Nik Hasta]

Both of them were douchebags.

One of them manned up and actually changed his ways to benefit other people.

The other almost did but then got mind raped, became jealous of his friend and joined up with an enemy group for his own ends because... I never understood why he did that actually; he was jealous of Naruto's power and Naruto got that power from Konoha, it makes no sense for him to run off to someone who had been beaten in combat twice by Konoha shinobi but that's just what he did.

I agree with Gen: Prior to his run-in with Itachi, Sasuke was a nice guy, concerned with his friends safety and a relatively nice guy, remember the only reason he got mindraped by Itachi was because he was trying to protect Naruto at the time.

After this he went off into the deep end of crazy and obviously wasn't thinking rationally. His behaviour spiralled downwards and now he's a very confused jerkward.

[lokisedge]

Both of them were douchebags.

One of them manned up and actually changed his ways to benefit other people.

The other almost did but then got mind raped, became jealous of his friend and joined up with an enemy group for his own ends because... I never understood why he did that actually; he was jealous of Naruto's power and Naruto got that power from Konoha, it makes no sense for him to run off to someone who had been beaten in combat twice by Konoha shinobi but that's just what he did.

I agree with Gen: Prior to his run-in with Itachi, Sasuke was a nice guy, concerned with his friends safety and a relatively nice guy, remember the only reason he got mindraped by Itachi was because he was trying to protect Naruto at the time.

After this he went off into the deep end of crazy and obviously wasn't thinking rationally. His behaviour spiralled downwards and now he's a very confused jerkward.Actually he got that power from a wondering hermit who was one of he legendary sannin, how was that fair to Sasuke? Jiraya and Oro were like Sasuke and Naruto, both were almighty rivals to the bitter end.

[Guy1]

Keep in mind they were already tired from having a mission or something, when they ran into the Sound 4, if memory serves.

The Sound 4 still needed to go all out and were so tired they needed to rest.

A shame we never saw the fight, it would have been awesome and a great way to show how powerful the Sound 4 were.

[master of read]

Actually he got that power from a wondering hermit who was one of he legendary sannin, how was that fair to Sasuke? Jiraya and Oro were like Sasuke and Naruto, both were almighty rivals to the bitter end.

actually he meant the will of fire that gives konoha ninja their strength. the third had it. the fourth had it. shikamaru has it. naruto damn sure has it.

sasuke..........not so much.

and for the record, it was only after kakashi left to go train sasuke personally and left naruto in the hands of ebisu. then they ran jiraiya. and jiraiya didnt teach naruto anything on the level of chidori on their first training sessions. he just taught him how to access the kyubi chakra and how to summon toads.

[Guy1]

actually he meant the will of fire that gives konoha ninja their strength. the third had it. the fourth had it. shikamaru has it. naruto damn sure has it.

sasuke..........not so much.

and for the record, it was only after kakashi left to go train sasuke personally and left naruto in the hands of ebisu. then they ran jiraiya. and jiraiya didnt teach naruto anything on the level of chidori on their first training sessions. he just taught him how to access the kyubi chakra and how to summon toads.

He also undid the seal Orochimaru placed on Naruto and gave him some pointers on water walking IIRC.

[lokisedge]

Oro was a much better teacher than Kakashi, not only did he teach him swordsman ship but as a genius helped sasuke develop ways the channel chidori in ways imaginable. Plus Kakashi was a crappy teacher since Sasuke basically taught himself when he learned chidori.

[Nik Hasta]

Actually he got that power from a wondering hermit who was one of he legendary sannin, how was that fair to Sasuke? Jiraya and Oro were like Sasuke and Naruto, both were almighty rivals to the bitter end.

I don't think you quite understand what I'm getting at here.

Naruto received the powerup that made Sasuke jealous, the Rasengan, from Jiraya. Jiraya expressedly associates himself with Konoha and embraces their ways of teaching by and large.

One of Sasuke's main reasons for leaving was because he felt Konoha's teaching methods were holding him back.

This course of action confuses me since the teaching methods in question were obviously working for Naruto and had worked in the past on Jounin level Konoha Nins like Gai and Kakashi and even Jiraya, Tsunade and the Fourth and the Third, all of whom were seriously powerful ninjas.

Heck even Itachi was largely taught by Konoha ninjas and he was disgustingly powerful.

I could expect him to look for new techniques and forms of training to catch up with Naruto, I didn't see where the; "Throw away all your friends and allies in exchange for joining up with Konoha's number one enemy," came from exactly.

[Guy1]

You know, Konoha has one major problem that it shares with NERV.
A disturbing amount of therapists.
I mean seriously, take a look at the amount of kids alone that have issues in Konoha, hiring or training a few people in therapy could have helped with a lot of problems....

[lokisedge]

I don't think you quite understand what I'm getting at here.Your saying it clear as day, Sasuke had it good in Konoha when truth is, he didn't.

Naruto received the powerup that made Sasuke jealous, the Rasengan, from Jiraya. Jiraya expressedly associates himself with Konoha and embraces their ways of teaching by and large.Yeah, and since Jiraya was the most powerful of the konoha teachers, how could Kakashi help Sasule expand his moveset to Naruto's level, Raikiri and Speed can only take him so far. Sasuke needed Orochimaru to be as equal as Naruto in the same moves that the legends jutsu mastered over time.

One of Sasuke's main reasons for leaving was because he felt Konoha's teaching methods were holding him back.They were, and Kakahsi was just a hinderance since Sasuke has low tolerance for jutsu's he can know in a week or two. Sasuke needed a superior and more versitile teacher who's a genius and a sannin.

This course of action confuses me since the teaching methods in question were obviously working for Naruto and had worked in the past on Jounin level Konoha Nins like Gai and Kakashi and even Jiraya, Tsunade and the Fourth and the Third, all of whom were seriously powerful ninjas.The Sannin > The Konoha Jounins.

Heck even Itachi was largely taught by Konoha ninjas and he was disgustingly powerful.Itachi's teacher was Madara and himself.

]I could expect him to look for new techniques and forms of training to catch up with Naruto, I didn't see where the; "Throw away all your friends and allies in exchange for joining up with Konoha's number one enemy," came from exactly.And? Jiraya basically is a superior teacher and sensei, look how he improved Naruto over a month. How could Kakashi teach Sasuke how to utilize and make elemental recompistion and innovate the chidori and learn how to summon Manda the snake Boss when he has little chakra capcity and stamina? It doesn't matter if Orochimaru was a enemy, he was Jiraya and Tsunade's colleage and a Kage. Sasuke would be behind Naruto if he stayed since Konoha is a limited community with limited reasources. How could Sasuke learn there and still catch up? He had training and got gimped by Kakashi in learning an A rank jutsu. Oro taught him much more.